[Unofficial Hotfix] Functional inf/cav javelineers; improved spearmen, faster cavalry

[QuintusSertorius]

There's been a large number of complaints about javelin skirmishers in 2.0 and 2.01, most of whom won't actually do what they're supposed to - ie throw their javelins. Which is why I don't feel it presumptuous to call this a hotfix, unofficial though it is, because it fixes the problem. It is something of a quick and dirty fix that circumvents that problem, and I expect it'll be resolved more properly by the team when they get round to it, but in the meantime, this works.

In addition to fixing infantry and cavalry javelineers, I've also addressed two other lesser issues, which have also been confirmed by the team as in need of fixing. They being a missed update to infantry using a spear as their secondary weapon and that cavalry are currently too slow. Both will be officially fixed later, but again while we're waiting for the next release, this is an improvement on those. While less important than the first two, they are still significant in their impact on the dynamics of a battle. Broadly the aim was to bring things into line with the EB1 experience, as far as is possible with a different engine.

Furthermore, this is a simple fix, all the changes come out of the export_descr_unit.txt and not the supporting files, so that's the only thing you need to install. However, it is unlikely to be savegame compatible, so you will need a new game for the changes to take effect.

To use, simply extract this 14581 and install in [Your M2TW folder]\mods\EBII\data. Make sure you back up your original EDU first.

EDIT: I've made one small change for underarm lancers, but it's not vital like many of the others. If you want it, download this 14607 instead of the one above.

If you just want those things sorted, you're set. However, if you want more detail on what's changed, read on. I'll take each change in turn and explain what's going on.



1) Secondary spear users

An update was supposed to have made it's way into 2.01, whereby everyone using a spear (but not a pike) would use the light_spear attribute, rather than spear. However, only primary-weapon spear users got this update, leaving those with a spear as their secondary weapon with the spear attribute. What this mean was that they were terrible at keeping their formation, would push deep into other units, and would often lose in melee against other infantry (even inferior units).

This was a very simple fix; I went through all the infantry units with the spear attribute and changed it to light_spear, removing any spear_bonus_x attribute that was there (since none of the primary spear users have it).

Affected units:
Uisusparos Kingetoi
Mercenary Uisusparos Kingetoi
Berukomtouga Selgoi
Gaisatoi
Ambactoi
Toutanakoi
Uassedoi
Dugunthiz Early
Dugunthiz Late
Gaizafulkan Frijato Early
Gaizafulkan Frijato Late
Jugunthiz
Toutaginoi Bodyguard
Kareus Late
Toutaginoi Early
Toutaginoi Late
Gestikapoinann
Retukenoi
Celtiberian Gaesamica
Principes Camillan
Principes Polybian
Hastati Sabelli
Hanatim Libim
Garamantes Infantry
Sabaean Elite Urban Infantry
Khamis
Thureophoroi
Misthophoroi Thureophoroi
Ioudaioi Taxeis
Illyrioi Hoplitai
Gund i Palta
Nizagan Eranshahr
Katpatuka Astibara


2) Infantry javelineers

Everyone recognises that at present in both 2.0 and 2.01 javelin skirmishers are useless. They won't throw their javelins, making them at best some weak flankers. There's almost no point recruiting them if they can't perform their primary task of showering the enemy (and their opposite numbers) with javelins. There are three root causes to this problem:


Most have a very inefficient animation, which takes too long to get to throwing.
They use a weapon which is inaccurate. Have a look in the descr_projectile.txt at the accuracy_vs_units - the lower the number is, the better. So even if they throw, it doesn't do anything.
Their range is too short, which interferes with the decision to skirmish. They end up perpetually hovering between "about to throw" and "need to move". This compounds the first issue.




This was fixed by applying three edits to all javelineers:


Changing their animation (via the soldier property) to one of four (depending on their secondary weapon) that do work efficiently: Euzonoi (knife/sword), kareus_late (overhand spear), Garamantes_Inf (underhand spear) and eastern_axeman (axe).
Changing their weapon to prec_javelin80, the same one heavier infantry with a precursor weapon use. This does a lot more damage by virtue of being more accurate.
Increasing the range for all javelineers from 45-50m to 70m. This increased the window in which they could throw without moving when in skirmish mode.



Result is that javelineers will now throw and their volleys do real damage if directed against other light infantry or into the rear of a unit.

Affected units:
Katioi
Jugunthiz
Maldais
Komatai
Iovamann
Celtiberian Gaesamica
Leves
Libyan Skirmishers
Numidian Skirmishers
Maures Infantry
Akontistai
Euzonoi
Illyrioi Peltastai
Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina
Gund i Palta



3) Javelin cavalry

I discovered after fixing infantry javelineers that cavalry javelineers have essentially the same problem, with the same outcome: they won't throw their javelins (and even when they do, they have a negligible effect). This required a less extensive change than for infantry, a change of weapon and range was enough. I changed all their weapons to cav_heavy_javelin40 and their range from 45m to 60m. Upshot is that they can now perform the function intended.

Affected units:
Akus Eporedoi
Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
Esseda
Seguorina
Komnetsamoi
Londo Epatoi
Ridanz
Late Ridanz
Mezenai
Equites Scutari
Equites Caetrati
Celtiberian Bodyguard
Celtiberian Lancer
Ekualakoi
Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
Equites Sabelli
Garamantes Chariot
Numidian Nobles
Numidian Cavalry
Maures Cavalry
Garamantes Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Harmata Drepanephora
Illyrioi Hippeis
Harauvatish Asabara
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
Armoured Indian Elephant
Nizakahar Ayrudzi
Indian Light Cavalry



4) Faster cavalry

Cavalry are too slow, unrealistically so. If you don't believe me, have some heavy cavalry try to catch fleeing infantry. Furthermore, light cavalry often cannot catch fleeing heavy cavalry. I've had a play with various multipliers on the move_speed_mod attribute, and found what I think is the right one. Heavy cavalry have had their speed increased by 25% and light cavalry (including Light, Missile and Skirmish) by 35%. This has had the happy side-effect of slightly beefing up the impact of charges, probably because more speed means more momentum means harder impact.

Affected units:

Light, Missile or Skirmish (Speed x1.35)
Akus Eporedoi
Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
Seguorina
Komnetsamoi
Londo Epatoi
Ridanz
Late Ridanz
Marhoreidonez Aþaloi
Aswiniai
Aswiniai Late
Getikoi Hippotoxotai
Mezenai
Equites Caetrati
Caetranann Epones
Celtiberian Lancer
Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
Equites Sabelli
Numidian Nobles
Numidian Cavalry
Maures Cavalry
Garamantes Cavalry
Nabatean Lancers
Nabatean Horse Archers
Hippeis
Misthophoroi Hippeis
Xystophoroi
Hippakontistai
Illyrioi Hippeis
Katpatuka Asabara
Harauvatish Asabara
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
Asabaran-i Madaen
Asiatikoi Hippeis
Aspet Hetselazor
Nizakahar Ayrudzi
Indian Light Cavalry
Indian Lancers
Aursa Baexdzhyntae
Sauromatae Fat Aexsdzhytae
Daha Baexdzhyntae
Shivatir-i Pahlavanig
Duna Asya
Assa Barai


Heavy (Speed x1.25)
Esseda
Gallic General Bodyguard
Donno Eporedoi
Marcacoi
Boii General Bodyguard
Boii Donno Eporedoi
Equites Scutari
Caetrati
Vobrim Epones
Vobrim Epones (Recruit)
Celtiberian Bodyguard
Ekualakoi
Camillan Equites
Equites Consulares
Parasim Libi-Ponnim
HaParasim HaB'hurim
Somrei HaMepaqed
Numidian General Bodyguard
Nabatean Royal Guard
Hetairoi
Hellenistic General Bodyguard
Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
Early Baktrian Bodyguard
Baktrioi Hippeis
Baktrioi Hippotoxotai
Eastern Early Bodyguard
Khuveshavagan
Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran
Spahbade Pahlavanig
Ysaninu Aysna
Ysaninu Aysna - Recruitable



5) Tighter formation for underarm lancers

Not a big or material edit, so purely optional if people want to test this one out. I've tightened the formation for underarm lancers, which should improve their cohesion and thus the impact of their charge. No other units would really benefit much from this, though Ibrahim said he's looking at making all Roman and Hellenistic cavalry formations a bit tighter in the next release.

Affected units:

Celtiberian Lancer
HaParasim HaB'hurim
Somrei HaMepaqed
Nabatean Lancers
Nabatean Royal Guard
Xystophoroi
Hetairoi
Hellenistic General Bodyguard
Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
Early Baktrian Bodyguard
Baktrioi Hippeis
Asabaran-i Madaen
Asiatikoi Hippeis
Eastern Early Bodyguard
Khuveshavagan
Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
Sauromatae Uaezdaettae (Recruitable)
Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran

Try it out, and I'd appreciate any feedback people have on using in anger, as well as thoughts on anything else that could be tweaked in the EDU.

[geala]

I started EB2 just yesterday using your mod and so have no experience with the original edu. While I cannot compare old and new I'm really satisfied with behavior of the modded units till now. Thank you. I hope there will be a method later to reduce javelin range without reducing the unit effectiveness because you cannot throw a javelin under real war conditions at 70 metres. Just a remark: saying that you have to extract the downloaded file is a bit misleading, at least for me because there was nothing to extract from the .php-file I downloaded. I just renamed it to export_descr_unit.txt.

[QuintusSertorius]

I started EB2 just yesterday using your mod and so have no experience with the original edu. While I cannot compare old and new I'm really satisfied with behavior of the modded units till now. Thank you. I hope there will be a method later to reduce javelin range without reducing the unit effectiveness because you cannot throw a javelin under real war conditions at 70 metres.

Javelin skirmishing is complicated in M2TW. There's an interaction with skirmish range (currently set at 50m, I believe), whereby if it isn't a comfortable margin more, they won't throw (as seen in unmodded 2.0/2.01). If we reduce skirmishing range, skirmishers won't disengage from a charge fast enough to avoid getting caught, making skirmish mode completely useless. The AI always uses skirmish mode for it's skirmishers, so that would be an advantage to the human player who is able to turn it off. Furthermore, the running to gain momentum animation eats another 10m as they move towards their target. Which makes the actual throw 60m, and not all that unrealistic at all. Bear in mind the modern world record for throwing a specially-designed flight javelin is 90m.

Indeed, it was trying to set "realistic" throwing ranges than neutered skirmishers in the first place. Because of the way that interacts (poorly) with the engine.


Just a remark: saying that you have to extract the downloaded file is a bit misleading, at least for me because there was nothing to extract from the .php-file I downloaded. I just renamed it to export_descr_unit.txt.

The file is right there to extract; if you're getting a .php file, that's because of your browser settings.

[geala]

I got the ratio behind your changes and it's totally acceptable for dealing with the M2TW javelin problems. But you cannot compare the range of javelins from sports competitions to that on real battlefields. Soldiers were for the most not trained musclemen, sick, tired, hungry, exhausted, hemmed by the terrain and so on. Heavier javelins might have been effective at 20 to 30 metres. Lighter javelins with thongs perhaps up to 40 metres. I did never reach such distances in my throwings trials but our ancestors were surely more experienced and stronger on the average.

Thanks for the tip with the browser, I should have a look at it.

[QuintusSertorius]

I got the ratio behind your changes and it's totally acceptable for dealing with the M2TW javelin problems. But you cannot compare the range of javelins from sports competitions to that on real battlefields. Soldiers were for the most not trained musclemen, sick, tired, hungry, exhausted, hemmed by the terrain and so on. Heavier javelins might have been effective at 20 to 30 metres. Lighter javelins with thongs perhaps up to 40 metres. I did never reach such distances in my throwings trials but our ancestors were surely more experienced and stronger on the average.

You don't need to be a "trained muscleman" to throw well, just have practised a good deal. Which skirmishers of the day would have done, especially if they used the javelin to hunt, and thus to supplement their diet. Having to do something well in order to eat tends to focus the mind. Soldiers were only potentially sick, tired, hungry and exhausted on campaign, and then only on extended campaign a long way from home. Even then, that's why training would ameliorate the loss of effectiveness compared to ideal conditions. In amongst a hundred-odd men in a unit, there'd be men who could throw really well and those who couldn't. So I don't think the effective range of 60m (because they lose 10m running up) is that far off.


Thanks for the tip with the browser, I should have a look at it.

It seems to be a common occurrence, I'll quote Ludens on the topic:


That's the webpage redirecting to the [file]. I am guessing you have some sort of script- or pop-up blocker installed that prevents the redirect. Could you try left clicking on the link (as opposed to right clicking and then selecting "save as")? If that doesn't work, try another browser. And if that doesn't work, see if you can discover what piece of software is blocking the redirect.

[mmiki]

Heavier javelins might have been effective at 20 to 30 metres. Lighter javelins with thongs perhaps
up to 40 metres. I did never reach such distances in my throwings trials but our ancestors were surely more experienced and
stronger on the average.


Roman legionaries would throw pila before charging when enemies were close - perhaps as close as 15m.
There is no way to replicate this in the TW engine that I know, so the best practice in my opinion is to seek to emulate the results rather than the actual number of meters. A unit should be able to shoot off a volley of javelins into another charging infantry and still have time to initiate their own charge.

If you wanted to actually re-enact an ancient battle in a TW engine it would be extremely difficult. For instance, it appears that close combat was fought in short bursts followed by disengagement and re-engagement rather than a sustained fight that took hours. The TW engine was built to simulate cinematic combat, not that, and the best you can hope for, I think, is to get believable results (low lethality of engagement, heavy use of skirmishing) rather than getting all the details correct.

[Bava]

Heavier javelins might have been effective at 20 to 30 metres. Lighter javelins with thongs perhaps up to 40 metres. I did never reach such distances in my throwings trials but our ancestors were surely more experienced and stronger on the average.

Have you tried it with an amentum? If not, try it again with one ;)

[IrishHitman]

What about elite peltasts like the Macedonian ones or the Hellenic Elite Skirmishers?

[QuintusSertorius]

What about elite peltasts like the Macedonian ones or the Hellenic Elite Skirmishers?

They'd already been updated in 2.01 to use a more effective weapon with a better range, so didn't need fixing.

[IrishHitman]

Grand, one more question: I presume I'd have to do some serious editing to make it compatible with the hotfix for traits?

[QuintusSertorius]

Grand, one more question: I presume I'd have to do some serious editing to make it compatible with the hotfix for traits?

No editing necessary; the trait hotfix is a completely different file (EDCT) that doesn't interact with the EDU. You can use the two together without any impact on each other whatsoever. They're completely compatible right out the box.

[IrishHitman]

Praise Zeus, time to stick this on and get cracking.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Fantastic work, Quintus!

I haven't been able to get EB2 running yet (more a Kingdoms DVD issue than an EB2 one), but grateful for your work anyway, encourages me to keep trying.

[Bava]

Whats your problem, TMS?

I also had a tough going with vanilla Kingdoms (it didn´t start at all by clicking on the .exe).

[QuintusSertorius]

Whats your problem, TMS?

I also had a tough going with vanilla Kingdoms (it didn´t start at all by clicking on the .exe).

See here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?148271-Can-t-get-even-vanilla-Kingdoms-to-run-on-Win-8-1-abandon-DVD-and-get-Steam). Something to do with Windows 8.1 and an old retail DVD disc.

[Bava]

Ah, ok. Seems like the same problem I had, albeit I´m still on Vista. If you bought the Gold Edition of MTWII and Kingdoms by a third party publisher (Software Pyramide in my case) and patched it to 1.5, you need an alternative exe, because of a different copy protection.

And, probably a stupid question, but have you already tried using the EBII launcher to see what happens?

[QuintusSertorius]

Just a quick update for everyone. I'm working with Ibrahim on the official EDU now, and with that in mind I'll be releasing an updated EDU, with most of the changes that appear in the next release, for testing. There are a number of changes around stats, such as distinctions between levy and professional units, proper use of the stat_heat attribute and a new formula for cavalry speeds. They'll still be faster, but not quite as fast as they are here.

[Harkon]

That's good. Cavalry speed is definitely a bit on the extreme side right now with your EDU, charges are way too lightning quick, a bit less would be fine.

[QuintusSertorius]

That's good. Cavalry speed is definitely a bit on the extreme side right now with your EDU, charges are way too lightning quick, a bit less would be fine.

Indeed, some light cavalry move more like a flock of birds than horses!

[QuintusSertorius]

Another quick update, I'm about 40% of the way through updating the test-EDU with all the new stats from the current version in the trunk (including tighter formations for all cavalry), after which I'll apply my new cavalry speed formula (won't take long to do), then open a new thread for it to be tested by everyone. Hopefully in the next few days, assuming I get some clear periods to spend with it.

[Adalingum]

Just a quick question on battles in general: is there a way to make sword units more aggressive? In most custom battles I've tested them in the battles will last a very long time, even on 6x speed, with neither side really attacking the other and individual soldiers often using animations that don't affect the other side or doing nothing at all. Is this an animation issue? Am I the only one having this problem (haven't really searched for it, but I don't recall a lot of posts about this issue)? The picture in the spoiler is an example of what can happen this way: the Roman soldier in the middle is completely surrounded by the Pergamese swordsmen, yet survives for several minutes because none of the Pergamese soldiers attack him.

14856

For the record: I'm using the current version of this sub-mod and that's why I thought I'd ask here. If this is wrong place to do so, would any of the moderators be kind enough to move this to the right place? I apologize for hijacking the thread like this, but once again, I thought this was the right place to ask. On a side note, I just noticed the Tolkien reference in the campaign today and that really made me grin. :2thumbsup:

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm really not sure how the mechanics work there, it could be animations or cohesion or any number of other factors. I must admit I hadn't noticed any particular problem with swordsmen, but I don't often watch close-up for any length of time to notice it.

This mod hasn't changed anything in particular with regards to swordsmen, so it'll be something in the base build.

On another note, I've almost finished the great EDU update (some final amendments and cavalry speed updates to do), it'll be ready to issue soon, once I've assured that it actually works without causing a CTD! :yes:

[Ibrahim]

Just a quick question on battles in general: is there a way to make sword units more aggressive? In most custom battles I've tested them in the battles will last a very long time, even on 6x speed, with neither side really attacking the other and individual soldiers often using animations that don't affect the other side or doing nothing at all. Is this an animation issue? Am I the only one having this problem (haven't really searched for it, but I don't recall a lot of posts about this issue)? The picture in the spoiler is an example of what can happen this way: the Roman soldier in the middle is completely surrounded by the Pergamese swordsmen, yet survives for several minutes because none of the Pergamese soldiers attack him.

14856

For the record: I'm using the current version of this sub-mod and that's why I thought I'd ask here. If this is wrong place to do so, would any of the moderators be kind enough to move this to the right place? I apologize for hijacking the thread like this, but once again, I thought this was the right place to ask. On a side note, I just noticed the Tolkien reference in the campaign today and that really made me grin. :2thumbsup:

That is strange: it definitely isn't cohesion. If anything, units are probably more cohesive in EB II than in EB I (if in principle). It might be an issue with animations, though whether the animations proper are the problem, or the engine's implementation of them, I know not.

[Adalingum]

Thanks for the replies. I've decided to make a quick video showcasing what I think is the issue: I tested one unit of Cretan peltasts versus one unit of Indian swordsmen. As of the moment of filming, the peltasts (commanded by me) have already thrown all of their javelins. The Indian swordsmen have thrown most of them, but both lines charged whilst the Indian warriors retained some of their missile weapons. This is filmed about one or two minutes in to the melee and the Indian troops have decided to go and try their javelins whilst in combat. This accounts for some of the idle stances of their soldiers.

Link to the video: http://youtu.be/Wtqflb2po58

Here's where problem lies in my opinion, though. The Indians should be dead meat to their Hellenistic counterparts who already have an attack order on them. That is not the case, though; In fact, the Indian swordsmen directly facing the Cretan soldiers are more aggressive than the peltasts. As can be seen the Indian troops are attacking the Cretan troops way more often than vice versa (the only aggressive Cretan I can see at a glance is the one in the front, who steps back after attempting about three jabs).

Now I don't know a lot about how this game works, but to me this would seem to be an animation issue as well. The units can certainly keep in line when told to, but for some reason the attacking animations don't trigger properly on some of the units. For example, when testing a unit of Uazali versus a unit of Gargokladioi, the Uazali won whilst taking only a few casualties, way less than would be expected in a battle between units with rather similar stats.

Again, I might just be the only one who has this issue, but I don't recall something similar happening during vanilla M2:TW. Also, if this is the way the battles are supposed to look, please forgive my impatience :p. Lastly, if asked, I would be willing to do some more testing and try to find out which units are in the 'passive-aggressive stance' as well. :book2:

[QuintusSertorius]

I've finished the EDU update, but get an "unspecified error" when trying to run the game - which disappears when I revert to the previous EDU.

Log says:

11:28:29.103 [script.err] [error] Script Error in mods/EBII/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 519, column 1
Missing attributes field for unit type 'celtic infantry gaeroas'.
11:28:29.104 [system.rpt] [error] Medieval 2: Total War encountered an unspecified error and will now exit.

Lines 519 is:
officer Argoi_Early

Anyone have any ideas what's going on? I can send you my current EDU if it will help you diagnose.

[Thoras]

Hmm no clue but::http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?647411-Weird-Error-Missing-Attributes-for-Unit-CLOSED


See if "Edit > EOL Conversion > Windows" is enabled and click it if it is. This happens to me sometimes in Notepad++ when I copy/paste. Some end of line characters become LF instead of CRLF and the game can't read the file properly

[QuintusSertorius]

Hmm no clue but::http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?647411-Weird-Error-Missing-Attributes-for-Unit-CLOSED

Windows Mode is grayed-out - does that mean it's already on it?

I've been doing very little copy+pasting at all, but I couldn't say I've done none.

EDIT: Found the problem and fixed it, new thread coming soon.

[MIKE GOLF]

Looking forward to your fix.