Why Americans do not pay off credit card debts

[HoreTore]

....Has always puzzled me. From what I've seen, credit, and not debit, cards looks like the norm in the US. I am completely unable to wrap my head around it. I too own a credit card, but I use it almost exclusively for travel abroad, where mastercard provides some nifty benefits. My debit card isn't very cheap to use abroad either, so the difference is quite small. The debt is repaid instantly upon return.

The concept of keeping a credit card debt over time is truly alien to me. Now Marketwatch provides a possible answer (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-is-why-people-carry-credit-card-balances-2014-11-03): Americans lack confidence that the banks will be there on that rainy day.

So, yanks: is this true?

[Crandar]

Credit cards are stupid. I don't use them and you shouldn't use them, too. They just give you the illusion that you can afford to buy unnecessary stuff.

[HoreTore]

Credit cards are stupid. I don't use them and you shouldn't use them, too. They just give you the illusion that you can afford to buy unnecessary stuff.

They have their use, especially with regards to travel. Paying with mastercard comes with free travel insurance and provides an additional layer of security. If someone scams my debit card, I have to wait quite a while to get it back. If someone scams my mastercard, it becomes mastercards problem. I will still have access to my own money while they sort out the situation.

Of course, I repay it immediately, and don't spend any more than I would with a debit card.


....but this doesn't seem to be the situation in the US, where credit card use seems much more common. And that puzzles me. Does the link in the OP explain why that is?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

....Has always puzzled me. From what I've seen, credit, and not debit, cards looks like the norm in the US. I am completely unable to wrap my head around it. I too own a credit card, but I use it almost exclusively for travel abroad, where mastercard provides some nifty benefits. My debit card isn't very cheap to use abroad either, so the difference is quite small. The debt is repaid instantly upon return.

The concept of keeping a credit card debt over time is truly alien to me. Now Marketwatch provides a possible answer (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-is-why-people-carry-credit-card-balances-2014-11-03): Americans lack confidence that the banks will be there on that rainy day.

So, yanks: is this true?

Only 22 of our 50 states require even one course of economics by High School in order to complete public education; only 17 states require personal finance to be taught -- and only 6 test specifically on it. As an aggregate, we are pretty malfing ignorant of things economic.

So, people but things on credit and then service the debt without actually paying it off all too frequently -- or they declare bankruptcy and start over.

And you wonder why yanks blithely assume we can both have a full social welfare safety net AND maintain our low personal taxation compared to Europeans.....ignorance.

[Kadagar_AV]

Only 22 of our 50 states require even one course of economics by High School in order to complete public education; only 17 states require personal finance to be taught -- and only 6 test specifically on it. As an aggregate, we are pretty malfing ignorant of things economic.

So, people but things on credit and then service the debt without actually paying it off all too frequently -- or they declare bankruptcy and start over.

And you wonder why yanks blithely assume we can both have a full social welfare safety net AND maintain our low personal taxation compared to Europeans.....ignorance.

I was about to write "they are stupid", but instead I'll just sign what you wrote :)

[drone]

They have their use, especially with regards to travel. Paying with mastercard comes with free travel insurance and provides an additional layer of security. If someone scams my debit card, I have to wait quite a while to get it back. If someone scams my mastercard, it becomes mastercards problem. I will still have access to my own money while they sort out the situation.

This is the main benefit to credit cards over debit cards. A debit card is the key to your bank account, if hacked your money is gone, your bank will not help you get it back. I have been seriously considering replacing my debit card with a straight ATM card until the US at least gets chip-and-pin implemented.

That said, carrying a balance on a Visa/MC card is insanity. I pay off my cards each month, they are used for convenience only. This makes my bank no money though, so I understand why the banks target young adults and others in high-risk situations. The usury on the balance combined with the high merchant fees is quite profitable. :yes:

[Strike For The South]

Americans are cash poor and status heavy.

[Montmorency]

I myself have abstained from using a credit card (as an American), but I hear worrying things, namely that if the banks don't see evidence through credit history of my willingness to take on extensive debt and then pay it off reliably (but not too quick, of course, got to let that interest build), then they will be much-less willing to offer me large loans in the future, e.g. for home mortgages. As a consequence, I am frequently advised to get a credit account, use it regularly, and work a fine balance between paying debt off too quickly and too slowly. Sounds pretty lame, I have to say.

Do any of you older fellas have some wisdom to share here?

[Strike For The South]

I built credit on my car, and bills. Have a good score with no credit card

That being said, I know nothing. Don't listen to me when it comes to fianance.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I myself have abstained from using a credit card (as an American), but I hear worrying things, namely that if the banks don't see evidence through credit history of my willingness to take on extensive debt and then pay it off reliably (but not too quick, of course, got to let that interest build), then they will be much-less willing to offer me large loans in the future, e.g. for home mortgages. As a consequence, I am frequently advised to get a credit account, use it regularly, and work a fine balance between paying debt off too quickly and too slowly. Sounds pretty lame, I have to say.

Do any of you older fellas have some wisdom to share here?

Like Strike answers, you don't necessarily need to create loads of debt to enhance your credit. Your credit score is a product of your income and a demonstrated ability to pay back indebtedness on schedule with little in the way of late or missed payments. It does NOT have to be high interest consumer credit debt to build a good track record -- student loans, education loans, automobile loans etc. are good sources of credit increase.

[Kadagar_AV]

I myself have abstained from using a credit card (as an American), but I hear worrying things, namely that if the banks don't see evidence through credit history of my willingness to take on extensive debt and then pay it off reliably (but not too quick, of course, got to let that interest build), then they will be much-less willing to offer me large loans in the future, e.g. for home mortgages. As a consequence, I am frequently advised to get a credit account, use it regularly, and work a fine balance between paying debt off too quickly and too slowly. Sounds pretty lame, I have to say.

Do any of you older fellas have some wisdom to share here?

Tin foil hat mode on?

Banks only care about if you have been able to keep a financial balance in your life.

To barely be able to handle a credit card definitely does NOT make you a bank super star, when you want to borrow for a house.

[HoreTore]

if hacked your money is gone, your bank will not help you get it back.

Here, at least, the bank repays you unless you are to blame for the incident(ie. gross negligence). Still, that takes time, and in the meantime you will have to borrow money. Not a situation I want to be in, hence the mastercard.


Americans are cash poor and status heavy.

Thing is though, they do have the cash. They just prefer to keep it in their bank accounts instead of repaying their credit card debts.

Which I find puzzling.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I have never carried a balance or accrued any interest- I pay my card in full every month.

The card allows me to never have to go to the bank
To never have to worry about having it stolen (it is their money)
To have a record of all of my transactions
To dispute charges for bad products
Allows me to build insane credit (0%apr car loan)
To travel internationally without converting currency.
And to make between 1-3% back in cash


But, you are right. Americans are terrible and probably doing it wrong in general. Credit card debt is terrible and pointless.

[Beskar]

Credit card transactions are insured here, whilst debit-card ones are not. But my credit card is set up to automatically be repaid from my debit account, so I do not pay any interest and if something critical happens, I have double the overdraft facility (cc and dc).

[Gilrandir]

Guys! Have as little to do with banks as you can help it. They will land you into a pickle one day. My father-in-law got a (gratuitous) credit card from a bank and was fool enough to activate it. He forgot about it and it was lying hid somewhere until he decided to close the account. Then he was informed that he owed the bank a certain sum of money for servicing the credit card though he never actually used it.
About 10 years ago my University declared that salaries wouldn't be paid in cash anymore and made the whole staff clients of a bank that it picked. The bank issued the cards so that we could receive our salaries. To get a card one is asked irrelevant questions like how many kids you have or what is your wife's occupation and then one undergoes a humiliating procedure of picture taking where you are holding the card in front of you (which reminded me of the photos of criminals taken by the police). Then they demanded my mobile phone number and when I said I have none they said I couldn't use the card. So it appears that my having/not having some property is an issue which can ultimately decide whether I can get my salary.
Conclusion: banks want to know every little thing about your personal life to get you by your balls just in case.

[HoreTore]

You're advocating the use of cash...?

Only third world countries do that, and not even them anymore.

[Husar]

I have a credit card that I barely use and that was always paid for automatically once a month, I have a debit card and I use cash for everyday sales, not least because that way I am more aware of how much money I actually spend on food etc.

[Sarmatian]

Cash is cool. Have you ever seen Indiana Jones use a credit card? Well?

I rest my case.

[Gilrandir]

You're advocating the use of cash...?

Only third world countries do that, and not even them anymore.
It is not about countries but about personal preferences. And those new-fangled electronic things will have you end up with chips under your skin.

[Gilrandir]

Cash is cool. Have you ever seen Indiana Jones use a credit card?

Or Darth Vader?

[HoreTore]

It is not about countries but about personal preferences. And those new-fangled electronic things will have you end up with chips under your skin.

Rubbish conspiracy crap should not hinder technological progress. The concept of physical currencies are nonsensical in this day and age, and an utter waste of resources. The faster we abandon physical currencies, the better it is.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Or Darth Vader?

Putin doesn't have a credit card?

[Gilrandir]

The faster we abandon physical currencies, the better it is.
Better for who? For banks? Then you are certainly right.
As for chips, I heard that somewhere in France people could pay for groceries just pressing their finger to some device. Carry on, Jeeves.


Putin doesn't have a credit card?
He has a credit country.

[HoreTore]

Better for who? For banks? Then you are certainly right.

For everyone. Less of the useless stuff means more of the good stuff.

You are already paying the banks for the ability to pay in cash. You will pay less for paying with a card.

And then we have stuff like robberies, black markets and crime in general.


As for chips, I heard that somewhere in France people could pay for groceries just pressing their finger to some device. Carry on, Jeeves.

Still future tech, AFAIK. Unfortunately.

Still, paying by pressing your phone on a tablet is just a couple of years away, and that's a big enough improvement over the current stone age technology.

[Gilrandir]

For everyone. Less of the useless stuff means more of the good stuff.

In Ukraine a lot of foodstuffs as well as clothes are bought at the markets from kerchiefed babushkas where credit cards are useless stuff and cash is useful. So utility depends on where you are going to utilize the thing in question.


And then we have stuff like robberies, black markets and crime in general.

Among the latter are credit card frauds and all kinds of crimes with electronic money.




Still, paying by pressing your phone on a tablet is just a couple of years away.
Don't have neither the former nor the latter and don't feel any worse. As in one parody movie a sign on a bar said: "No air conditioning and proud of it". While those up the line in a supermarket who pay with a card tend to do it longer then those with cash.

[HoreTore]

In Ukraine a lot of foodstuffs as well as clothes are bought at the markets from kerchiefed babushkas where credit cards are useless stuff and cash is useful. So utility depends on where you are going to utilize the thing in question.

Unless you're talking about a black market operation, these places will have no problems adjusting to a paperfree economy.


Among the latter are credit card frauds and all kinds of crimes with electronic money.

They are still calculated by the insurance companies to be less expensive than the current crimes. Secondly, the banks will guarantee the loss in these cases, not the individual(as they already do, by the way). Thirdly, and most importantly, hacking crimes do not carry with it the threat of physical damage.


Don't have neither the former nor the latter and don't feel any worse. As in one parody movie a sign on a bar said: "No air conditioning and proud of it". While those up the line in a supermarket who pay with a card tend to do it longer then those with cash.

Feel free to live under a stone if you wish.

The rest of us, however, want more efficiency, reduced costs and generally less hassle.

[Husar]

For everyone. Less of the useless stuff means more of the good stuff.

As I said, I find that handing over a piece of paper with a number on it is more symbolic for my monkey mind and helps me spend less money. Banks know that and that is why they promote the use of electronic methods. I use my debit card for bigger purchases, but for everyday stuff like buying groceries I use cash. Not to forget that some stores here also don't allow card payments under a sum of 5 or 10€ because the fees for the electronic transaction are higher than their profit then or something like that.

I'm not against having more payment options if one likes to use them, but I also actually prefer to use physical money for small payments.


The rest of us, however, want more efficiency, reduced costs and generally less hassle.

Some of the worst hassles I had working at a fuel station came from cards that didn't work or internet outages, which meant 80% of cards didn't work... And customers weren't pleased either.
Not to forget that there is at least one store where the card reader does not accept my debit card. Hassle-free is something else.

[HoreTore]

As I said, I find that handing over a piece of paper with a number on it is more symbolic for my monkey mind and helps me spend less money.

I used to do that too when I was younger.

Then I started using that thingy inside my cranium, and it worked fine. I check my bank account a couple of times a month to pay bills and make sure all the electronic payments are correct, yet I always know how much is in my account, give or take a couple of hundred(NOK).

Also, this will become a non-issue once you get used to the new system. Or are you still calculating prices in marks?

The problem isn't so much that you want more options, the problem is that giving you that option puts those who have to handle your cash in completely needless peril. You're also fueling the black market.

[HoreTore]

Cash should always be an option. It doesn't take a tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist to see the problem with a society where you can't handle and secure your own money without the assistance of automated and vulnerable systems you have no real control over. The option to put the money in your mattress should always exist.

I hear there's a tinfoil-sale over at CostCo. Run, GC, run!

You can't secure our current money anyway. See: hyperinflation. Your point is moot.

[HoreTore]

Malarkey! You can take it out of the system and put it in a place where nobody else can touch it. The value of it may change, but its yours in fact and in principle. If you can never touch and take your money like that, then its no longer money. Its credit. You may be fine with that, but I wouldn't be.

How is this different from buying and storing toilet paper in your mattress, then?

Credit is different, by the way. Money, whether physical not, is a representation of work performed, while credit is a representation of work expected.

Further, actually taking money, physical or not, out of circulation actually hurts the economy. Many times more if you choose to return it to circulation at a later date.

[HoreTore]

If your money doesn't exist except at the pleasure of the government and a group of banks that are in cahoots with the government, then all you're getting is an allowance with plenty of expectations to go along with it.

The system you are describing here is the system we currently have, GC. Our money do not exist as such except at the whims of those keeping them real, which is the government and the banks. You are getting an "allowance", and there are expectations as to what you do with it.


What about people who don't want bank accounts?

Do I care? No.


What about people who want to remain anonymous with their transactions?

Do I care? No.


Would you label them all (...) proponents of the black market?

Yes. It's time for people to realize what the consequences of their actions are. The majority of transactions involving cash are illegal, and the percentage is higher the higher the value of the note is.


Hurting the economy should never be a criminal act by itself. If I want to take my money out of the system, and the system is hurt by that, then that sucks for the system. I should still be able to do it.

What you're saying is that you should be free to poison the village well, as the well should have safeguards against people poisoning it.

I disagree.

[rvg]

Credit cards are great, provided that you pay them off on time.

You get to enjoy lots of free stuff, discounts, cashback bonii, etc.

[HoreTore]

Credit cards are great, provided that you pay them off on time.

You get to enjoy lots of free stuff, discounts, cashback bonii, etc.

This isn't the issue though; it's that Americans seem to think it wise to have cash in the bank AND a credit card debt. At the same time.

[rvg]

This isn't the issue though; it's that Americans seem to think it wise to have cash in the bank AND a credit card debt. At the same time.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of Americans seeing "wisdom" in that.

[HoreTore]

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of Americans seeing "wisdom" in that.

See linky in OP.

EDIT: And also see my question regarding the correctness of said linky.

EDIT2: here's another one (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/51-percent-have-enough-cash-to-pay-off-credit-card-debt-study/). This one doesn't deal with the issue specifically, but it provides a lot of information on it even though the questions posed are irrelevant to this issue.

In short: HoreTore is puzzled.

[Husar]

I used to do that too when I was younger.

Then I started using that thingy inside my cranium, and it worked fine. I check my bank account a couple of times a month to pay bills and make sure all the electronic payments are correct, yet I always know how much is in my account, give or take a couple of hundred(NOK).

Also, this will become a non-issue once you get used to the new system. Or are you still calculating prices in marks?

No, I calculate prices in Euros. And I can check my bank account, and I do check my bank account, but I still prefer to make smaller payments in cash, I don't want to get out my card to buy some chewing gum and enter the pin etc. It is much faster, more convenient ands cheaper to use cash in such a situation. Cash is actually probably still the preferred payment methods in supermarkets here. And as I said, they do not allow small card payments anyway due to the fees banks demand for each electronic transaction.
I also do not like automatic cash registers because I like to interact with other craniums.


The problem isn't so much that you want more options, the problem is that giving you that option puts those who have to handle your cash in completely needless peril. You're also fueling the black market.

And the internet fuels copyright infringement.

[HoreTore]

Well then you're something of an authoritarian. That's fine, but I'm not. I think the principle behind cash is valid, and giving it up "just because" is a win for the big man against the little man.

The risk of illegal transactions is the price of monetary freedom. Freedom carries risk. Do away with the risk, and you do away with the freedom.

I can't see how you can appeal to freedom when the doomsday scenario you paint is exactly the scenario we have with our cash today.

I can't make any sense of your last sentence.

The only differences between an economy with physical money and an economy with non-physical money, is that the latter is more efficient, safer and easier to handle.

[HoreTore]

No, I calculate prices in Euros. And I can check my bank account, and I do check my bank account, but I still prefer to make smaller payments in cash, I don't want to get out my card to buy some chewing gum and enter the pin etc. It is much faster, more convenient ands cheaper to use cash in such a situation. Cash is actually probably still the preferred payment methods in supermarkets here. And as I said, they do not allow small card payments anyway due to the fees banks demand for each electronic transaction.

Germany should enter the 21st century, then.

The reason why some German companies might lose money on small debit card transaction has nothing to do with the transaction itself, by the way. That's caused by the price list provided by the banks, and that list is largely arbitrary and based mostly on habit. Change the habits, and the prices will change.


And the internet fuels copyright infringement.

True, and I fully support copyright infringement.

[HoreTore]

It is not complicated. With physical money, anonymity is a real option. Without physical money, it is not a real option. That's a pretty clear-cut privacy issue, and the only difference between you and me is that you think that this element of privacy is not worth it. I could not disagree more, end of argument. What's not to get?

The privacy issue is the one and only somewhat valid concern I have heard, but you didn't make that the focus of your argument, GC ~;)

But this is an area where we disagree. I believe the purpose of currency is to provide for efficient transactions and government oversight, not protect anonymity. I see that some people swap those around, but I disagree strongly.

[Husar]

Germany should enter the 21st century, then.

We still have some areas with 56k internet, but if you want electronic money, why not bitcoins? They're electronic, secure and have the privacy aspect. Wonderful. They can also fuel the black market, despite being electronic.
Card payments still take longer than cash, I see no reason to switch. There are newfangled ways of making them faster and more insecure, but the latter part is another reason I do not like those. There is also a good reason why you can buy the equivalent of tinfoil hats for wallets and it's not a conspiracy.


The reason why some German companies might lose money on small debit card transaction has nothing to do with the transaction itself, by the way. That's caused by the price list provided by the banks, and that list is largely arbitrary and based mostly on habit. Change the habits, and the prices will change.

So you are basically saying we should trust companies with arbitrary business practices even more than we already do?


True, and I fully support copyright infringement.

And I fully support the black market.

[HoreTore]

But as for your poisoned well, Privacy enables people to do things that the government might not know about, and some of those things might be illegal.

The poisoned well had nothing to do with crime as such or privacy issues.

The issue with taking money out of circulation, large amounts of it, is because the government/banks will make up for it by printing more money to keep the money supply stable. A sudden reintroduction of a large amount of previously stashed money will be like the government going Zimbabwe and printing crazy money, ie. hyperinflation.

In theory.

[HoreTore]

We still have some areas with 56k internet, but if you want electronic money, why not bitcoins? They're electronic, secure and have the privacy aspect. Wonderful. They can also fuel the black market, despite being electronic.

Because bitcoins are nonsense. Chiefly because they are not based on work.


Card payments still take longer than cash, I see no reason to switch. There are newfangled ways of making them faster and more insecure, but the latter part is another reason I do not like those. There is also a good reason why you can buy the equivalent of tinfoil hats for wallets and it's not a conspiracy.

The newfangled phone option is no less secure than cash.


So you are basically saying we should trust companies with arbitrary business practices even more than we already do?

Even more? No. The same level of trust; nothing will actually change in that regard. The money charged by the bank does not represent the real value of the transaction, but rather the market value of the transaction. That basis will be the same whether we have physical money or not.


And I fully support the black market.

Report to your nearest tax collector.

[HoreTore]

In theory indeed! But the example I gave was a singular person taking money out and putting it in a mattress. Something that is uncommon, generally useless, but very much a symbolic point of freedom for some. Hyperinflation is hardly a risk here.

Both true and false. One person doing it will never be a problem. Get 300 million doing it, and suddenly that adds up.

It's like everyone in a country deciding to withdraw all of their money at the same time: every bank would go under instantly.

The "in theory" part was added because of the unlikelihood of this ever occurring. Still, it has happened from time to time when an economy goes under, usually pre-empted by a government ban on bank withdrawals. Happened in Russia under Yeltsin a couple of times after a few banks went under.


and you come down on the authoritarian side of it.

I usually do when discussing anonymity, as I largely consider the question irrelevant.

[HoreTore]

300 Million Americans don't even have bank accounts, so the question is moot. You're disputing a symbolic act of freedom by throwing moot points at it.

It is good that you consider anonymity an irrelevant question, but I don't see it that way. Furthermore, I see your consideration as largely irrelevant. :dizzy2:

I see that anonymity is all the rage amongst internet libertarians these days, but I'm more fond of discussing Marx I'm afraid... I also have a casual disregard for symbolism of any kind.


(also, there are more people in the world than muricans, ya know ~;) )

[Husar]

Because bitcoins are nonsense. Chiefly because they are not based on work.

As though any of our money were based on work in any way.
Especially given that the people with most of it hardly worked for all of it.
And even if BitCoins are just a commodity, if they are a commodity accepted for trade then they are a suitable replacement. I could also buy ciggies by trading in water or milk if the store owner accepts it, but bitcoins are more convenient and more likely to gain acceptance.
I'm not aware that the government can force us to trade only with government-issued money, especially given that pretty much all of it is issued by private banks.
I also happen to think that bitcoins are nonsense, but if you take my paper money away, they're the closest option and the only one you leave me.


The newfangled phone option is no less secure than cash.

Maybe, but I do not have a newfangled phone that would support it since I cannot afford one at the moment. Forcing people to buy newfangled phones is a waste of resources, bad for the environment and fosters inequality. And it forces parents to either give their fancy expensive phones to their children or buy phones for them if their children want to go buy some chewing gum. That's both idiotic and incredibly impractical and also more waste of resources.


Even more? No. The same level of trust; nothing will actually change in that regard. The money charged by the bank does not represent the real value of the transaction, but rather the market value of the transaction. That basis will be the same whether we have physical money or not.

But our banks will also know where we shop, potentially even what we buy there. You can say I'm a conspiracy nut, but then you have to explain why companies actually want that information and openly pay people to get it. At the moment I can choose whose bonus program I take part in, who gets to collect what information, at least to an extent. But when my bank has all the info centralized, you know, what's going to stop them from making some extra profit by selling it? The government didn't even stop them when they laundered money for terrorists and drug cartels...


Report to your nearest tax collector.

As soon as you hand yourself in for copyright infringement.
I'm also not sure whether purely moral support is actually illegal. Thoughtcrime?

[HoreTore]

Anonymity has been all the rage since Eric Blair decided to write by the name of Orwell, and long before that I'm sure. Throwing labels around doesn't make your argument any less authoritarian. (oops, a label!)

Yet another of my pet peeves: 1984 isn't about privacy or surveillance... It's also in favour of socialism.

[Gilrandir]

Unless you're talking about a black market operation, these places will have no problems adjusting to a paperfree economy.

You certainly have no experience of shopping in Ukraine, which explains your naivety in this issue. I, for example, NEVER buy meat at supermarkets. At the market it is cheaper, fresher and locally produced while at the supermarket it is more expensive; it usually stays there for quite a time and when it gets "unfresh" they have ways to make it look and smell fresh again; and it is usually imported from Brazil or Poland or other such places (and I'm not sure that it is imported legally, which may happen as often as not or that it is not infected by some plague or anthrax and sold at next to nothing to some astute Ukrainian businessmen who then bribed sanitary inspection which allowed it to be sold). It is pretty much the same with other "raw" foodstuffs which can be produced by local farmers. The latter come to the market to sell their wares from the sticks and certainly sell them cash down. You may call it blackmarket, I call it direct delivery of home made products.
Also living in Ukraine you must be always prepared for various what-ifs. What if electricity is switched off? What if the supermarket card reading facilities are out of order? What if your bank goes broke? And latest developments in Eastern Ukraine bear me out: people there may have some money on their bank accounts but bankomats don't work, electricity supply is intermittent and in view of this supermarkets work for cash. Do you suggest they should eat their cards?
Conclusion: living in Ukraine is fun.


Feel free to live under a stone if you wish.
The rest of us, however, want more efficiency, reduced costs and generally less hassle.
It feels more natural and healthy under a stone. In fact, you may view it as preparation for the running-to-the-hills manouver you advised me to take.



Then I started using that thingy inside my cranium, and it worked fine. I check my bank account a couple of times a month to pay bills and make sure all the electronic payments are correct, yet I always know how much is in my account, give or take a couple of hundred(NOK).

The described procedure fits excellently into what you call "less hassle".


If your money doesn't exist except at the pleasure of the government and a group of banks that are in cahoots with the government, then all you're getting is an allowance with plenty of expectations to go along with it. The concept of ownership is pretty important. What about people who don't want bank accounts? What about people who want to remain anonymous with their transactions? Would you label them all criminals, and proponents of the black market?

Hurting the economy should never be a criminal act by itself. If I want to take my money out of the system, and the system is hurt by that, then that sucks for the system. I should still be able to do it.
That's what I think. One who advocates and defends caring governments and obliging banks is too naive to consider them such. They will skin you to the bone without batting an eyelid for their own profit and will never stay in the red. So why should I worry about their plans to squeeze more money out of too trusrful citizens who are naive enough to think that they do it out of charity exclusively to pease us to the utmost?

[HoreTore]

You certainly have no experience of shopping in Ukraine

Meh, don't worry; you'll join us developed countries eventually.

[Husar]

Meh, don't worry; you'll join us developed countries eventually.

Do you only eat processed factory food then?

[Gilrandir]

Meh, don't worry; you'll join us developed countries eventually.
In this case I'm afraid one scabbed sheep will eventually spoil the european flock and you will either run for the hills or have me teaching you survival in the mess Ukraine will land you into.

[Gilrandir]

And those new-fangled electronic things will have you end up with chips under your skin.
Hore Tore said this was still to come some time ahead:

http://www.lowcards.com/france-tests-pay-by-fingerprint-technology-14463

[Slyspy]

If you have credit available then it may be wise to make use of it, so long as you can continue to pay off the interest.

[HoreTore]

Do you only eat processed factory food then?

That would depend on your definition of "factory". But, yeah.


Hore Tore said this was still to come some time ahead:

http://www.lowcards.com/france-tests-pay-by-fingerprint-technology-14463

1. Look at the second word in the title.
2. This is about fingerprints, not fingerchips. Are you saying it's spooky that we're all born with fingerprints...?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That would depend on your definition of "factory". But, yeah.



1. Look at the second word in the title.
2. This is about fingerprints, not fingerchips. Are you saying it's spooky that we're all born with fingerprints...?

Of course! Barcodes are so much easier to scan, I simply cannot understand why this has not been updated. If WOT can actually give the Stalingrad map to Americans, surely we can get past such analog crap as fingerprints!

[HoreTore]

Do you only eat processed factory food then?


Of course! Barcodes are so much easier to scan, I simply cannot understand why this has not been updated. If WOT can actually give the Stalingrad map to Americans, surely we can get past such analog crap as fingerprints!

Hmmm.... Are fingerprints actually analog, though?

[Sarmatian]

If you have credit available then it may be wise to make use of it, so long as you can continue to pay off the interest.

In what way it is actually wise?

I can only imagine two scenarios where it would be wise:

1) Emergency

2) To increase your income

Anything else is not only unwise but stupid.

[HoreTore]

Its about a lot of things, man. How is it not about privacy and surveillance?

Surveillance is a very minor player in the book. It's just one of the tools of Big Brother.

The critique of nationalism and group dynamics is far greater. But those are things we enjoy, so let's not focus on that.

[Sigurd]

You shouldn't really discuss banks and money transactions with a Norwegian. Our banks are on the bleeding edge technologically.
We expect that when paying our bills via the net, the money will be withdrawn from our account immediately.
We like to pay for our €0.5 lollipop with a debit card - with no questions asked.
We no longer carry cash around - and quite like our small card-sized wallets.
Parking in the city is payed via an app on the phone or a debit card at the nearest parking meter.
We order a whopper menu via an app on the phone and pick it up at the nearest burger place.

Its only when going abroad that we realize how awkward these things are for the rest of the world.

[Beskar]

I remember using my card to pay for bus fare in Sweden.

Though now, cards over here allow you to simply touch the reader and it is paid for instantly (up to £20) to bring a lot of that convenience over here.

[HoreTore]

I remember using my card to pay for bus fare in Sweden.

It frustrates me to no end that one of the local bus lines don't accept cards.

The regional one doesn't accept cash, though...

[Husar]

You shouldn't really discuss banks and money transactions with a Norwegian. Our banks are on the bleeding edge technologically.
We expect that when paying our bills via the net, the money will be withdrawn from our account immediately.
We like to pay for our €0.5 lollipop with a debit card - with no questions asked.
We no longer carry cash around - and quite like our small card-sized wallets.
Parking in the city is payed via an app on the phone or a debit card at the nearest parking meter.
We order a whopper menu via an app on the phone and pick it up at the nearest burger place.

Its only when going abroad that we realize how awkward these things are for the rest of the world.

How do you tip service personnel? Or do they just add a certain percentage automatically?

I'm also quite sure that Monaco doesn't have huge problems with poor people. If only every country could be more like Monaco, then we'd all be rich!

[Gilrandir]

1. Look at the second word in the title.
I'm aware of the facts that it is a pilot project so far, but considering the speed with which modern technologies come tearing into our world, it's not gonna take them long to actually start mass production of the technology in question. My bet is five years.



2. This is about fingerprints, not fingerchips. Are you saying it's spooky that we're all born with fingerprints...?

I'm also aware of that. But, again, using your body as a payment means is a common thing for both, so fingerprints are the first step. Then they are gonna tell you that one can't store and use all the necessary information via fingerprint technology and ask you if you would like to get rid of any troubles accompanying carrying objects representing money outside your body? Guess what they would offer if you answer yes.

[Gilrandir]

How do you tip service personnel?
They carry a dozen credit cards with variuos small sums of money and if the situation requires it they tip them stuffing such a card down the serviceman's pocket. Or the same procedure during a handshake.

[Sigurd]

How do you tip service personnel? Or do they just add a certain percentage automatically?

I'm also quite sure that Monaco doesn't have huge problems with poor people. If only every country could be more like Monaco, then we'd all be rich!
What a question? and from an IT trained person.
The waiter comes to the table with a portable terminal. The sum for the meal is displayed. You press Ok and you have the option to change the total amount. You round it up to about 10 -15% more than the stated amount and it is credited the waiter as tips.

[Beskar]

How do you tip service personnel? Or do they just add a certain percentage automatically?

Some restaurants have a "Insert x amount for tip", but usually, they automatically add 10% and then you have to specifically ask them to remove it, and looking like a "cheapskate" with the humiliation factor. All fun and games.

[HoreTore]

I'm aware of the facts that it is a pilot project so far, but considering the speed with which modern technologies come tearing into our world, it's not gonna take them long to actually start mass production of the technology in question. My bet is five years.


I'm also aware of that. But, again, using your body as a payment means is a common thing for both, so fingerprints are the first step. Then they are gonna tell you that one can't store and use all the necessary information via fingerprint technology and ask you if you would like to get rid of any troubles accompanying carrying objects representing money outside your body? Guess what they would offer if you answer yes.

This is entering paranoialand.

[Kadagar_AV]

I like cash. It lets you buy weed without electronic fingerprints ~:smoking:

[Veho Nex]

What about people who don't want bank accounts? What about people who want to remain anonymous with their transactions? Would you label them all criminals, and proponents of the black market?


According to our terrorist profiling poster at my job. Anyone who pays with cash or wishes to use a moniker is in league with al qaeda ISIS. Those unamerican, pot smoking, jesus hating, communist, fascist nazis will get whats coming to them for not using credit cards like a good decent american would

[Gilrandir]

You shouldn't really discuss banks and money transactions with a Norwegian. Our banks are on the bleeding edge technologically.
We expect that when paying our bills via the net, the money will be withdrawn from our account immediately.
We like to pay for our €0.5 lollipop with a debit card - with no questions asked.
We no longer carry cash around - and quite like our small card-sized wallets.
Parking in the city is payed via an app on the phone or a debit card at the nearest parking meter.
We order a whopper menu via an app on the phone and pick it up at the nearest burger place.

Its only when going abroad that we realize how awkward these things are for the rest of the world.
And this is why Norway is considered to be one of the most expensive countries for living. Banks simply include a certain percentage for servicing their credit cards into the price of goods. :laugh4:


What a question? and from an IT trained person.
The waiter comes to the table with a portable terminal. The sum for the meal is displayed. You press Ok and you have the option to change the total amount. You round it up to about 10 -15% more than the stated amount and it is credited the waiter as tips.
What about hotel bellboys and maids? Or are their uniforms designed so that terminals are parts of them? And what about resort facilities staff? Oops, how silly of me, there aren't any beaches in Norway. Or are there? Still, the imagination draws a picture of Pamela Anderson rushing to save me with a terminal bouncing up and down upon her belt... Well, to tell the truth, it is not the terminal whose bouncing comes first into the picture.

[Veho Nex]

What about hotel bellboys and maids? Or are their uniforms designed so that terminals are parts of them? And what about resort facilities staff?

I've noticed at some places the servers and what not carry their phones with a little card reader attached to it. You tip them through that. idk though.

[HoreTore]

And this is why Norway is considered to be one of the most expensive countries for living. Banks simply include a certain percentage for servicing their credit cards into the price of goods.

Cash is far more expensive to handle than cards, I'm afraid.

And tipping isn't common in Norway. We get paid the full wage instead.

[drone]

Cash is far more expensive to handle than cards, I'm afraid.

And tipping isn't common in Norway. We get paid the full wage instead.

How do you tip strippers?

[HoreTore]

How do you tip strippers?

That people are willing to pay 300 USD for ten minutes of penetration just shows me we can tax people a lot harder without hurting anyone.

[Greyblades]

That people are willing to pay 300 USD for ten minutes of penetration just shows me we can tax people a lot harder without hurting anyone.
Hurting anyone but the person raising the taxes. The Americans are notoriously rabid when it comes to paying taxes.

[Greyblades]

Damnit Vodafone!

[CrossLOPER]

I don't understand why people have such a problem with credit cards. If you pay off the balance at the end of the month, interest does no even come into play.

[Husar]

What a question? and from an IT trained person.
The waiter comes to the table with a portable terminal. The sum for the meal is displayed. You press Ok and you have the option to change the total amount. You round it up to about 10 -15% more than the stated amount and it is credited the waiter as tips.

I know how and that it is technically possible, I was curious about how it is actually done.

Tiaexz explained the guilt-variant in his post after yours.

[Sigurd]

Well you know profilers. They're notoriously overpaid and full of their own horseshit. :shrug:
Why do you hate 'Murica?

[Kagemusha]

You shouldn't really discuss banks and money transactions with a Norwegian. Our banks are on the bleeding edge technologically.
We expect that when paying our bills via the net, the money will be withdrawn from our account immediately. Check
We like to pay for our €0.5 lollipop with a debit card - with no questions asked. Check
We no longer carry cash around - and quite like our small card-sized wallets. Check
Parking in the city is payed via an app on the phone or a debit card at the nearest parking meter. Check
We order a whopper menu via an app on the phone and pick it up at the nearest burger place. Check

Its only when going abroad that we realize how awkward these things are for the rest of the world.

Business as usual in Finland as well. One question though. Why pick up a whopper via phone app and move your lazy butt to a restaurant to pick it up, when one can simply order many kinds of dishes from restaurants via internet, pay them using net bank and get the goods delivered to ones home?:hide:

[Gilrandir]

Why pick up a whopper via phone app and move your lazy butt to a restaurant to pick it up, when one can simply order many kinds of dishes from restaurants via internet, pay them using net bank and get the goods delivered to ones home?:hide:
To make sure you can still move farther than from the computer to the fridge.

[Kagemusha]

To make sure you can still move farther than from the computer to the fridge.

So you are a manly man mr university nationalist, who has no doubt never even held a military issue in your hand? Without services the current form of market would not work.Simple plain fact. Development relies on lazyness of humans.

[HoreTore]

Advanced mathematics is little more than applied laziness.

[Gilrandir]

So you are a manly man mr university nationalist, who has no doubt never even held a military issue in your hand?
As long as one has doubts one is still able to think critically and be ready to correct oneself in case of a mistake. So do have doubts, as have had military training lessons at school (where they taught me handling AK-what's it number and some kind of rifle) and later while already working at the factory I attended military training camp (for two weeks) where I continued my acquaintance with weapons. I can't deny, though, that my dating weapons was brief and can't boast great mastery of them. Yet, I am a peaceful person, if what you meant by your attempt to hurt me, but I don't know why I should be ashamed of it.
As for being a nationalist, I thought I've had this out elsewhere. Yet I may repeat it in this thread as well: a nationalist is a person who hates other nations, a patriot is the one who loves his own. Feel the difference.
I don't understand your irony (if irony it was) in regard of "a manly man". I certainly do quite a lot of walking daily and never order anything via internet, but again I don't see why I should be ashamed of it.
Generally speaking, you have mistakingly considered my post as a personal insult,so let me be more explicit: every "you" used in it didn't mean "you Kagemusha". It was an impersonal usage. Perhaps I should have used "one" instead of "you", so I apologize if your sharpness was caused by misinterpreting my post in view of its possible double reading. If you have other reasons for making the comment you made, feel free to disregard the apology.

[Gilrandir]

Advanced mathematics is little more than applied laziness.

Then it is advanced appiled laziness.:laugh4: