View Full Version : Congratulations Sweden
You are living the dream!
UN expects to be Sweden to be a third world country by 2030. Why, well that's kinda obvious, importing the third world I'd say. (Almost they come close in) Leading the world in rape-statistics, wow, that is not the Sweden I remember visiting, the North is the Sweden you like to visit but the south is Marseille. Way to go. Can I please call you total idiots. Women and leftists, NEVER give them anything else to do than doing groceries or getting high.
You have got to me kidding me, Sweden is one of the best places to be, it's absolutely beautiful. Awesome landscape, really nice people and gorgeous women.
Multicultis, the Shire has been taken over by Mordor.
HoreTore
11-20-2014, 13:18
Clueless racism.
Nothing new.
Montmorency
11-20-2014, 13:21
The true Swedes have already been exterminated.
Everyone you see is just an immigrant wearing the skin of a slain Swede.
Redicule is so extremily normal when absolute faith has no answers. There are various stages, first there is denial, then comes hostility, than comes violence. Violence always comes from leftists who don't have to answer to existianal considerations, they are right, it's there birthright to be absolutily right. I think they should reconsider, prefferably without getting violent. As that is always the answer when lefties are out of ammo, that they claw for your eyes and make the best of it. I like having my eyes personally, couldn't do without them. So that rage and absolute wiilingness is scary.
HoreTore
11-20-2014, 13:38
lol.
Again, clueless racism and nothing more.
And ABB says 'hello' to your comments about 'violent lefties'.
In what concerns the rape statistics, the problem is that the Swedish people have a let's say a bit awkward definition of rape, which explaines their high percentages:
https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/news-from-bra/archive/news/2011-01-18-how-common-is-rape-in-sweden-compared-to-other-european-countries.html
Also, the rape cases have been decreased 5% last year.
HoreTore
11-20-2014, 13:43
In what concerns the rape statistics, the problem is that the Swedish people have a let's say a bit awkward definition of rape, which explaines their high percentages:
https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/news-from-bra/archive/news/2011-01-18-how-common-is-rape-in-sweden-compared-to-other-european-countries.html
Also, the rape cases have been decreased 5% last year.
We've been down this road before; Fragony(and Kadagar the SuperSmart) simply do not know how statistics work. They have no ability in reading statistics as a representation of reality.
https://i.imgur.com/qJf3mAr.jpg
Rhyfelwyr
11-20-2014, 14:02
UN expects to be Sweden to be a third world country by 2030.
Source?
There is probably some truth in what you say about the rape issue. Obviously, immigrants from certain parts of the world can often have a terrible attitude towards women. But that's not the whole story in Sweden's rape statistics - it is because Sweden is so progressive that its definition of rape and its culture of reporting it is more comprehensive than even most of the developed world.
Who would try to argue that Sweden is really the rape capital of the world? When you think of what goes on in the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, etc.
We've been down this road before; Fragony(and Kadagar the SuperSmart) simply do not know how statistics work. They have no ability in reading statistics as a representation of reality.
We are in good company with the UN then, usually not, but sometimes we are. And than we gracefully agree with the numbers that are provided because the UN can't be wrong can they (yeah they can) Sweden simply is becomming a failed state thanks to their multicultural policies that is nothing more than come here and bring your whole retarded family, we got the answer as we are Swedish, of course it works, rise and shine. But it doesn't work. Not even in Sweden. Nice lakes, cool forests. Nice country. North at least.
HoreTore
11-20-2014, 14:14
We are in good company with the UN then, usually not, but sometimes we are. And than we gracefully agree with the numbers that are provided because the UN can't be wrong can they (yeah they can) Sweden simply is becomming a failed state thanks to their multicultural policies that is nothing more than come here and bring your whole retarded family, we got the answer as we are Swedish, of course it works, rise and shine. But it doesn't work. Not even in Sweden. Nice lakes, cool forests. Nice country. North at least.
Clueless racism, once again.
At least make an effort to try understanding the world we live in, Frags.
Clueless racism, once again.
At least make an effort to try understanding the world we live in, Frags.
Ah, dismissal. Surely it doesn't mind that if you are a women you are most likely to be raped in Sweden, these nice blonds must really deserve it to be raped by import, making Sweden the second-highest rape-capital in the world and surroundings, must be me. Of course there is only one thing that has absolutily nothing to do with it, it couldn't have anything to do with immigrants thinking absolutily different about not having the right to draging a Swedie into an alley and pumping her up, several times, the bitch must bleed after all, what fun would it be otherwise.
Could also consider that it happened to a really nice girl. sweden is raping itself.
Sir Moody
11-20-2014, 14:34
for anyone who is Interested this is the Report he is referencing http://ww.rrojasdatabank.info/HDRP_2010_40.pdf
From a cursory read it isn't suggesting what Frag is saying - basically the report suggests the Sweeden will decline marginally while some Third world countries will grow to match them (ie rising out of Third World status) - I couldn't find any reference in the report to WHY so I suspect people are jumping on the "its all the multiculturalism" aspect rather wishfully...
HoreTore
11-20-2014, 15:01
for anyone who is Interested this is the Report he is referencing http://ww.rrojasdatabank.info/HDRP_2010_40.pdf
From a cursory read it isn't suggesting what Frag is saying - basically the report suggests the Sweeden will decline marginally while some Third world countries will grow to match them (ie rising out of Third World status) - I couldn't find any reference in the report to WHY so I suspect people are jumping on the "its all the multiculturalism" aspect rather wishfully...
What, the third world is going to increase relative to the developed world in the next 50 years?!
OH MY GOD THAT IS BRAND NEW INFORMATION
for anyone who is Interested this is the Report he is referencing http://ww.rrojasdatabank.info/HDRP_2010_40.pdf
[i couldn't find any reference in the report to WHY so I suspect people are jumping on the "its all the multiculturalism" aspect rather wishfully...
Nope you won't but that doesn't mean that almost every Swede knows, or pretends he doesn't know. Mostly a she but alss that's for other considerations, why women shouldn't get to do be preferable per sé; can I please call it Stockholm by proxy without getting clawed. Sweden is a massive fail of what was really a pretty awesome country. sweden is still great if you skip the legacy of multiculturalism, it's getting increasingly harder though to avoid not to be lving in the leftist dream. The end result, the second most likely country for a women to get raped.
rory_20_uk
11-20-2014, 15:23
Rather like how 50% of people have a below average quality of life etc etc. Yes... because that is what average means.
We have had further stories in the UK that the police have not recorded a large number of crimes for all sorts of reasons. So before this was released it looked like we had less crime, when in fact we had police who were intentionally fixing the data.
~:smoking:
Why do we assume that the Rise of Swedish Rape happens because Muslim Asians from Africa rape blue-eyed and blonde Swedish girls?
Perhaps, blue-eyed and blode males can't resit the exotic atractiveness of the immigrant girls...
We have had further stories in the UK that the police have not recorded a large number of crimes for all sorts of reasons. So before this was released it looked like we had less crime, when in fact we had police who were intentionally fixing the data.
~:smoking:
They furiously do that in Sweden as well, rapists often get a name, bunnyhopper, that sort of stuff. Fact remains that 100% of assault rapes in enriched towns come from non-western immigrants. Taken over 5 years. Cold facts, that could be wrong of course.
Not that I don't understand, Scandinavian women are mostly smart, pretty, highly educated and funny. Everything people who just rolled of the mountain are terrified off.
Sir Moody
11-20-2014, 15:57
They furiously do that in Sweden as well, rapists often get a name, bunnyhopper, that sort of stuff. Fact remains that 100% of assault rapes in enriched towns come from non-western immigrants. Taken over 5 years. Cold facts, that could be wrong of course.
Not that I don't understand, Scandinavian women are mostly smart, pretty, highly educated and funny. Everything people who just rolled of the mountain are terrified off.
What Fragony neglects to mention is "Assault" rapes make up a small percentage of Sweedish rapes - and the number of Assault rapes has actually been declining year on year - we have done this dance many times now - its getting old...
What Fragony neglects to mention is "Assault" rapes make up a small percentage of Sweedish rapes - and the number of Assault rapes has actually been declining year on year - we have done this dance many times now - its getting old...
I specified it, so what's the problem.
I could tell you how bad it is but that's also just the perspective of a girl I know who lives there. You will probably, or rather hopefully, change your mind if she tells you the things she tells me. how she is constantly scared because she gets harrased all the time, it aren't the native Swedish. She is scared and wants to get the fuck out of Sweden. If you can't imagine how it is to be constantly harrased and intimidated by people who have very other norms than your parents teach you to have, there is something seriously wrong with your judgement. How would you feel if you are just too scared to go to the store for some simple groceries because there is someone hissing at you everywhere you go.
Of course there is only one thing that has nothing to do with it.
HoreTore
11-20-2014, 17:45
Fact remains that 100% of assault rapes in enriched towns come from non-western immigrants.
Certified bullshit.
,,,,And considering that this is the rarest form of rape, also quite irrelevant.
Kralizec
11-20-2014, 19:30
Multicultis, the Shire has been taken over by Mordor.
Admittedly, that did happen. But it was done by Saruman, who acted on his own accord. And Saruman was white (badum, tish)
HoreTore
11-20-2014, 19:39
Admittedly, that did happen. But it was done by Saruman, who acted on his own accord. And Saruman was white (badum, tish)
Didn't he turn into a murky, indescribable colour as he turned to evil?
Seamus Fermanagh
11-20-2014, 21:53
Certified bullshit.
Who funded THAT study? :inquisitive: However, even the most basic understanding of social science research would reveal that a 100% of anything related to humans is almost vanishingly unlikely.
,,,,And considering that this is the rarest form of rape, also quite irrelevant.
Statistically irrelevant, even policy-decision irrelevant -- but little else could be more relevant to the victim thereof.
Kadagar_AV
11-20-2014, 22:15
We accept around 1% of our population a year to become Swedish, these are generally from the worlds worst hell holes. This is like if England would accept 550.000 immigrants a year, Germany would accept 800.000 a year...
It's just not working.
We already start to see cracks in the wellfare. We soon will have to chose between wellfare and massive immigration, seems like we can't have both.
Heck, already today immigration costs us at LEAST 4 times more than we spend on, say, the Swedish Defense Forces.
We just had a report by the police, saying we now have 55 ghettos where they have lost control, and normal functions in society often is problematic. Heck, in some areas you cant even drive in an ****ing AMBULANCE without the orcs throwing stones at it and the personel. You know it's bad when police have to escort the ambulance.
Heck, in some areas even the police asks for police escort, they don't dare to go in with just one patrolcar.
I don't know if an economic collapse will come, but we sure will have to accept that the "Old Sweden" is dead, and that we are unable to keep the wellfare system functioning.
About rapes, I find it rather natural that people from cultures where women are seen in rather bad ways, take this tendency with them. When they then come in contact with blonde girls with short dresses, well :shrug:
Immigrants are extremely over-represented when it comes to rapes, and assault rapes and gang rapes have almost exclusively had immigrated perpetrators.
Multicultis, the Shire has been taken over by Mordor.
Perhaps Sweden can serve as an example to others on what not to do...
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not cast your pearls before swine, for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6
Amen.
We accept around 1% of our population a year to become Swedish, these are generally from the worlds worst hell holes. This is like if England would accept 5,5 million immigrants a year, Germany would accept 8 million a year...
Yes, because England and Germany have 550 million and 800 million inhabitants respectively...
Kadagar_AV
11-21-2014, 01:13
Yes, because England and Germany have 550 million and 800 million inhabitants respectively...
Brainfart, I've been out drinking... I corrected the numbers.
Strike For The South
11-21-2014, 01:14
Perhaps Sweden can serve as an example to others on what not to do...
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not cast your pearls before swine, for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6
Amen.
This is the single biggest bastardization of this biblical verse I have ever read.
Your pearls are not your earthly things or your smug feeling when you get to keep brown people out of your country. Your pearls are your relationship with God.
Holy
a completely inoffensive name
11-21-2014, 04:13
Admittedly, that did happen. But it was done by Saruman, who acted on his own accord. And Saruman was white (badum, tish)
Saruman was white but he was an immigrant from the land of the Valar.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-21-2014, 04:50
Yes, because England and Germany have 550 million and 800 million inhabitants respectively...
How does France get the reputation for "ooh-la-la" if you Germanic language types have been pumping out those kinda numbers since the end of the second global?!?
We accept around 1% of our population a year to become Swedish, these are generally from the worlds worst hell holes. This is like if England would accept 550.000 immigrants a year, Germany would accept 800.000 a year...
It's just not working.
We already start to see cracks in the wellfare. We soon will have to chose between wellfare and massive immigration, seems like we can't have both.
Heck, already today immigration costs us at LEAST 4 times more than we spend on, say, the Swedish Defense Forces.
We just had a report by the police, saying we now have 55 ghettos where they have lost control, and normal functions in society often is problematic. Heck, in some areas you cant even drive in an ****ing AMBULANCE without the orcs throwing stones at it and the personel. You know it's bad when police have to escort the ambulance.
Heck, in some areas even the police asks for police escort, they don't dare to go in with just one patrolcar.
I don't know if an economic collapse will come, but we sure will have to accept that the "Old Sweden" is dead, and that we are unable to keep the wellfare system functioning.
About rapes, I find it rather natural that people from cultures where women are seen in rather bad ways, take this tendency with them. When they then come in contact with blonde girls with short dresses, well :shrug:
Immigrants are extremely over-represented when it comes to rapes, and assault rapes and gang rapes have almost exclusively had immigrated perpetrators.
Look at the bright side, you could have lived in Southern France. Much worse. Can't think of an area in Sweden I wouldn't go, but especially Marseille oh dear.
Sir Moody
11-21-2014, 10:09
We accept around 1% of our population a year to become Swedish, these are generally from the worlds worst hell holes. This is like if England would accept 550.000 immigrants a year, Germany would accept 800.000 a year...
Just a note but we do - 560,000 this year (march 2013 to march 2014) - Germany does as well (1,226,000 in 2013) - what you are complaining about is actually normal for Europe as a whole...
Just a note but we do - 560,000 this year (march 2013 to march 2014) - Germany does as well (1,226,000 in 2013) - what you are complaining about is actually normal for Europe as a whole...
And what is exactly the same trend in Europe as a whole? Kadahar is absolutily right, I don't know if his numbers are correct but the immigration of people who just rolled of the mountain, have absolutily no chance to ever be of any benefit, costs BILLIONS. In the Netherlands the cost of the leftist dream of a multicultural society costs 8 billion a year, that is just the cost of those who come anew, those who are allready here aren't in the equation. But what they allready have costed must be a pretty nasty number as welfare dependance, crime, and school dropping, are absolutily something to get worked about. In general, they suck at absolutily everything, no matter what generation. Getting worse actually. Their IQ is too low and they are only interested in fancy shoes and smartphones, and just grab what they want. That is not a generalisation. And everybody knows that.
Rhyfelwyr
11-21-2014, 10:41
In general, they suck at absolutily everything, no matter what generation. Getting worse actually. Their IQ is too low and they are only interested in fancy shoes and smartphones, and just grab what they want. That is not a generalisation. And everybody knows that.
What sort of immigrants are you talking about. Arabs I guess? They tend to do pretty well at everything in the USA (http://www.allied-media.com/Arab-American/Arab%20american%20Demographics.html).
"The vast majority of Arab-Americans are citizens of the United States. They are very much like other Americans, except younger, more educated, more affluent and more likely to own a business. Like any other immigrant group, Arab-Americans want to enjoy America's riches while preserving the important parts of their native culture."
HoreTore
11-21-2014, 10:46
8 billion is pocket change for any developed country, and Frags is still being a clueless racist.
What sort of immigrants are you talking about. Arabs I guess? They tend to do pretty well at everything in the USA (http://www.allied-media.com/Arab-American/Arab%20american%20Demographics.html).
"The vast majority of Arab-Americans are citizens of the United States. They are very much like other Americans, except younger, more educated, more affluent and more likely to own a business. Like any other immigrant group, Arab-Americans want to enjoy America's riches while preserving the important parts of their native culture."
Because the USA actually has sensible immigration-policies, you have to be capable of something before you can be welcomed there, Sweden has none whatsoever. Their immigrants are mostly from hellholes like Iraq and Somalia. There aren't enough sheep to herd in Sweden for them to be of any use, and that's just about everything you can squeeze out of them. Too stupid to be of any use to Sweden. Reality is that they are harmful for Sweden, they bring crime and wealthfare-dependance, nothing more.
Sarmatian
11-21-2014, 11:15
Perhaps Sweden can serve as an example to others on what not to do...
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not cast your pearls before swine, for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6
Amen.
Aren't you a man of Middle Eastern origin who's living in the United States? You should be the last one to criticise immigration.
Aren't you a man of Middle Eastern origin who's living in the United States? You should be the last one to criticise immigration.
And the first to assume that he knows what he is talking about. As if islam is any different in the USA, it's the same thing everywhere.
Sarmatian
11-21-2014, 12:46
And the first to assume that he knows what he is talking about. As if islam is any different in the USA, it's the same thing everywhere.
But how can we trust a person of Middle Eastern origin? Their entire purpose in life is to ruin our way of life and the purity of our race by raping our womenfolk.
I don't know. I'm undecided on the whole thing until Francis calls a crusade.
But how can we trust a person of Middle Eastern origin.
Easily and gracefully? Pick the one that sounds best when you rap it.
HoreTore
11-21-2014, 13:12
Aren't you a man of Middle Eastern origin who's living in the United States? You should be the last one to criticise immigration.
He is also of the largest immigrant group living in Sweden, ie. the ones criticized by kad and frag in this very thread.
(those immigrants they're talking about are not muslim, ya know...)
He is also of the largest immigrant group living in Sweden, ie. the ones criticized by kad and frag in this very thread.
(those immigrants they're talking about are not muslim, ya know...)
My girlfriend is from Iran you twat, feel free to keep insisting on calling me a racist, it means absolutily nothing to me. I am not waiting for to be handed out a badge of aproval.
HoreTore
11-21-2014, 13:48
My girlfriend is from Iran you twat, feel free to keep insisting on calling me a racist, it means absolutily nothing to me. I am not waiting for to be handed out a badge of aproval.
Hello. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument)
But meh, I see nearly all racism as grounded in the bourgeois disdain for the poor. You fit nicely in that category.
Aren't you a man of Middle Eastern origin who's living in the United States? You should be the last one to criticise immigration.
Middle Eastern and Slavic, yes. And yes, overall I love immigration, especially immigration to the US. Not muslim immigration though. You as a Serb should have a damn good idea of the damage muslims cause wherever they're in sufficient numbers. So no, I never did favor muslim immigration and never will. Non-muslims are an entirely different story.
Hello. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument)
But meh, I see nearly all racism as grounded in the bourgeois disdain for the poor. You fit nicely in that category.
It's normal that that lefties see racism everywhere, comes with the condition. Doesn't mean it should be taken serious by rational people. I am pretty horrible at being a racist really. Or maybe I am just not a racist. Lefties calling someone a racist is like a spell from a Harry Potter book; Racismus! All uncomfortable truths gone.
Rhyfelwyr
11-21-2014, 17:25
Because the USA actually has sensible immigration-policies, you have to be capable of something before you can be welcomed there, Sweden has none whatsoever. Their immigrants are mostly from hellholes like Iraq and Somalia. There aren't enough sheep to herd in Sweden for them to be of any use, and that's just about everything you can squeeze out of them. Too stupid to be of any use to Sweden. Reality is that they are harmful for Sweden, they bring crime and wealthfare-dependance, nothing more.
Your comments about immigrants having low IQ etc seemed like a racial comment. So is your complaint with immigration policy, or with the genetic quality of the immigrants themselves?
But meh, I see nearly all racism as grounded in the bourgeois disdain for the poor. You fit nicely in that category.
I think that's wishful thinking on your part. There's a reason parties like the BNP do well in ex-Labour strongholds.
Your comments about immigrants having low IQ etc seemed like a racial comment. So is your complaint with immigration policy, or with the genetic quality of the immigrants themselves
It's just true, why they have such a lower IQ I do not know, inbreeding probably as most marry their direct family and the consequences of inbreeding are well known, and they have been doing it for centuries. Not my fault that that has consequences.
Rhyfelwyr
11-21-2014, 17:35
It's just true, why they have such a lower IQ I do not know, inbreeding probably as most marry their direct family and the consequences of inbreeding are well known, and they have been doing it for centuries.
So why do they do so well in America? Obviously, it doesn't come down to just genetics.
So why do they do so well in America? Obviously, it doesn't come down to just genetics.
Because unlike Sweden the USA only accepts the capable immigrants, no skills, no greencard. Sweden lets in everybody because it makes them feel so good and rightious, from the worst places on earth. And it really shows what the difference is.
Gutmensch be gutmensch. Untill they can't find a 99% white school.
Montmorency
11-21-2014, 17:52
Because unlike Sweden the USA only accepts the capable immigrants, no skills, no greencard.
Categorically false.
Categorically false.
Sure, they take refugees. Sweden got itselve into the trouble they are in because they let everybody in, the more useless the better as useless people are a good investment for the wellfare-industry who will always get to look after them. Bit like the broken window theory.
Ironside
11-21-2014, 20:24
Sure, they take refugees. Sweden got itselve into the trouble they are in because they let everybody in, the more useless the better as useless people are a good investment for the wellfare-industry who will always get to look after them. Bit like the broken window theory.
That's why the main driver for immigration to Sweden for almost a decade (doubling it) was a rightwinger who cut the money for the "welfare-industry".
Kagemusha
11-21-2014, 22:17
He is also of the largest immigrant group living in Sweden, ie. the ones criticized by kad and frag in this very thread.
Is rvg Finnish? Thats news to me.~D
Sarmatian
11-21-2014, 22:39
Is rvg Finnish? Thats news to me.~D
Finns don't assault rape. You guys are just guilty of driving the price of alcohol up.
Is rvg Finnish? Thats news to me.~D
Maybe I'm muslim?
Gilrandir
11-23-2014, 07:53
Saruman was white but he was an immigrant from the land of the Valar.
Not an immigrant. Sent on a certain mission. You may call him Bond. Failed Bond.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-23-2014, 18:23
.... Failed Bond.
Stop discussing the Greek economy in a Scandinavian thread.
possibly, but if things are alike here. But they only needed workers. Not multiculturalism. They don't go all free but the left is guilty of living the dream. It's rediculous to deny that. I got a simple solution, people who vote for leftist parties should open up their houses, so people who are native Dutch don't have to live in trailers,as they do because all immigrants get priority. Seems fair to me. Live the dream, cope with reality, quid pro quo?
Sarmatian
11-23-2014, 22:28
people who are native Dutch don't have to live in trailers,as they do because all immigrants get priority
I'm lost for comment on so many levels.
I'm lost for comment on so many levels.
Simply what it says. Immigrants get priority, 6 months max. Native Dutch get to be on the waiting list every time an immigrant gets priority, which is standard, and on average that is 7 years. Not everyone can buy a house as houses are really expensive, renting one in the free-sector is also something most can't afford, so people with a normal salary have to wait untill a home comes free. But immigrants have instant love so they have to wait for years and years. Immigrants however get it right away, well not right away, but they get priority over native Dutch. That is not populist talk, it is policy and that is a fact. The EU demands we take thousands (estimation 40.000 next year) more but there arent enough houses. And because of that native Dutch will have to wait even longer. Immigrants first, first a house, free healthcare, first everything really.
Imho, people who vote for pro-EU parties should get the weight on the shoulders of those who don't, and give these people a room in their own house if there isn't a house available.
Sarmatian
11-24-2014, 11:25
Simply what it says. Immigrants get priority, 6 months max. Native Dutch get to be on the waiting list every time an immigrant gets priority, which is standard, and on average that is 7 years. Not everyone can buy a house as houses are really expensive, renting one in the free-sector is also something most can't afford, so people with a normal salary have to wait untill a home comes free. But immigrants have instant love so they have to wait for years and years. Immigrants however get it right away, well not right away, but they get priority over native Dutch. That is not populist talk, it is policy and that is a fact. The EU demands we take thousands (estimation 40.000 next year) more but there arent enough houses. And because of that native Dutch will have to wait even longer. Immigrants first, first a house, free healthcare, first everything really.
Imho, people who vote for pro-EU parties should get the weight on the shoulders of those who don't, and give these people a room in their own house if there isn't a house available.
Do you actually know the procedures involved or the differences between types of immigration? The costs? The taxes payed to the government of the receiving country, which aren't refunded if you're denied access?
I stopped trying after about 6 months. When I was looking into emigrating to Australia (among other countries), I found out that I would have to pay between 5 and 10 thousands Australian dollars just for the paperwork and taxes to Australian government. If I get accepted after that, I would have to pay another 10 to 20 thousands, not counting additional expenses or the plane ticket.
When I found out that in the best case I would have to pay at least 30 000 euros to get to Australia, and that the process would likely take a few years, I lost interest.
And I'm a highly educated white male with work experience who's fluent in English.
And, before you ask, European countries are generally worse, it's more difficult to emigrate there. Netherlands is among the hardest to move to.
Yeah I know the procedure. Every time an immigrant comes in a Dutchman is back on the waiting-list for getting a house because immigrants get priority. EU rule. Of which we clearly said no against but got anyway. We don't have that much space we are already the most densily populated country in the world, there are no houses. Of course it is difficult to come here as a legal immigrant, your place has been given away.
Let me give you an example by the way, a notoriously criminal Marrocan family in Amsterdam had no less than 35 organisations looking over them, source, La Figaro. The left needs the useless like a junk needs heroin. You are not welcome because you would do fine because you don't need them. The broken window theory in action. Hopelessly incapable immigrants are preffered to get the carroussel going.
Sarmatian
11-24-2014, 12:53
Yeah I know the procedure. Every time an immigrant comes in a Dutchman is back on the waiting-list for getting a house because immigrants get priority. EU rule. Of which we clearly said no against but got anyway. We don't have that much space we are already the most densily populated country in the world, there are no houses. Of course it is difficult to come here as a legal immigrant, your place has been given away.
Which EU rule?
If you're from a non-Shengen country, you're denied access to Netherlands and can't seek an asylum. All Shengen countries are considered safe and thus there are no grounds for asylum (ie. all asylum requests are automatically denied).
If you manage to find yourself in Netherlands and ask for an asylum, you don't get a house, you get placed in a shelter while your request is processed. Netherlands is notorious for having one of the strictest systems for asylum seekers.
So, please, what are you talking about?
Disclaimer: There may be special rules for your ex colonies, I really don't know anything about that.
Which EU rule?
If you're from a non-Shengen country, you're denied access to Netherlands and can't seek an asylum. All Shengen countries are considered safe and thus there are no grounds for asylum (ie. all asylum requests are automatically denied).
If you manage to find yourself in Netherlands and ask for an asylum, you don't get a house, you get placed in a shelter while your request is processed. Netherlands is notorious for having one of the strictest systems for asylum seekers.
So, please, what are you talking about?
Disclaimer: There may be special rules for your ex colonies, I really don't know anything about that.
Once it's granted you get priority over Dutch citizens when getting a house, and many other benefits that native Dutch have to pay for. As a legal immigrant getting here is easy, you will get the same costs as us though. Cut 2/3 out of every euro you make. Everything is taxed, even dying.
Edit, that's not to say that our immigration-policiies can be cruel, and really random. Friend of mine lived in front of asylum centre and they always were welcome when we had a party. A Pakistani guy who was told he could stay made us a big dinner, next day he was gone, never heard anything about him anymore. All I know is that he was directly going to the airport when he thought he was going to work.
Sarmatian
11-24-2014, 17:53
Once it's granted you get priority over Dutch citizens when getting a house, and many other benefits that native Dutch have to pay for. As a legal immigrant getting here is easy, you will get the same costs as us though. Cut 2/3 out of every euro you make. Everything is taxed, even dying.
Edit, that's not to say that our immigration-policiies can be cruel, and really random. Friend of mine lived in front of asylum centre and they always were welcome when we had a party. A Pakistani guy who was told he could stay made us a big dinner, next day he was gone, never heard anything about him anymore. All I know is that he was directly going to the airport when he thought he was going to work.
Well, in 2012, you guys had 12 000 asylum requests, with more than 50% denied, and Dutch government is taking actions to significantly reduce that figure further.
Once they are granted asylum, they're legal immigrants, by the way. In 2012, Netherlands had 160 000 immigrants, so those immigrants you complain about make about 3-4% of the immigration. Between 2000-2011, about 20% of immigrants were Dutch, and good portion (over 10 000) were from Surinam and Dutch Antilles. Most immigration is from EU countries, and from non-EU countries, China's the biggest contributor.
On the whole, in the last 15 years, similar number of people that immigrated to Netherlands emigrated from Netherlands.
As someone who looked into moving to Netherlands from a non EU country, I can tell you that it's not at all easy. You need one of two things
1) a job offer
2) an education in field in which there's a lack of qualified workers in Netherlands.
You've been fed a fairy tale by xenophobes my friend, and you believed.
As someone who looked into moving to Netherlands from a non EU country, I can tell you that it's not at all easy. You need one of two things
1) a job offer
2) an education in field in which there's a lack of qualified workers in Netherlands.
Yeah, or you have to come from a country where you can be assumed to be prosecuted unfairly so you can ask for asylum.
We actually have similar rules and I'm missing one where citizens can vouch for someone to stay, makes me miss feudalism.
I don't know if these numbers are true, but alas, people from the former colonies can come here legally without a problem, they get nothing for free, they have to pay the same thing we do, no for them benefit at all, they are legal immigrants. Different thing. Point is, Dutch people are discriminated because refugees get priority when it comes to getting the houses, there are simply not enough. Take a look at a map and take into consideration how small the Netherlands is, and how many people live in it. It's simply not possible to handle the influx the EU demands from us.
Sarmatian
11-24-2014, 18:59
I don't know if these numbers are true, but alas, people from the former colonies can come here legally without a problem, they get nothing for free, they have to pay the same thing we do, no for them benefit at all, they are legal immigrants. Different thing. Point is, Dutch people are discriminated because refugees get priority when it comes to getting the houses, there are simply not enough. Take a look at a map and take into consideration how small the Netherlands is, and how many people live in it. It's simply not possible to handle the influx the EU demands from us.
In 2006 and 2007, you actually had negative migration, more people left than settled in the country.
In 2011, you had about 160 000 immigrants and 134 000 emigrants. That's a net positive of 26 000. Taking into account lower birth rate and longer lives in general, that's a necessity to keep the economy functioning. It's also 7 000 less than in 2010 since emigration is on the rise, even faster than immigration. According to statistics, by 2040, population of the Netherlands will increase only by 1.1 million, to 17.6 million. Netherlands on the whole has quite a restrictive and selective immigration policy, basically the government is allowing only enough immigration to keep economy functioning in the long term*.
Those people that do get houses is because they have suffered severe persecution and need something to get a fresh start. We're talking about a few thousand people that truly need help, because they need to be integrated into society as soon as possible and become productive memberss. It's insignificant number overall, especially considering the strength of the Dutch economy.
*My conclusion, after looking at the figures and policies
A lot of people leaving are Dutch themselve. I can't really answer because I don't know, or make any sense out of it on how it works, who can stay or not, it seems to be random to me, I can't provide the answers.
Sarmatian
11-24-2014, 23:08
A lot of people leaving are Dutch themselve. I can't really answer because I don't know, or make any sense out of it on how it works, who can stay or not, it seems to be random to me, I can't provide the answers.
Of course. Like some people come to Netherlands to find their fortune, some Dutch leave to find their fortune somewhere else. There's nothing wrong with that. Some Dutch come back, some go somewhere else, some non-Dutch come, some non-Dutch go back or go somewhere else.
Just wondering Frags, how can you have such a strong opinion on immigration without checking the basic facts, like how many immigrants/emigrants there are? How many of those seek political asylum? Their ethnicity/country of origin? How it affects the demographics of Netherlands?
Paltmull
11-25-2014, 00:07
Hi Fragony. I'm going to quote myself a third time now. I suggest you bookmark this post so you can read it the next time you want to discuss this subject.
Norway no problems, must be kidding me. If you bring your wife when you go on a holiday to Norway she's more likely to get raped than in any African country. If you stay on the countryside it's all fine, but the city's have been enriched with people with culture. Norway and Sweden are on the top on the rape index, leaving even South-Africa gloriously behind
Edit, must be updated, Sweden is now one point below South-Africa scoring an impressive 17, leaving many third world countries behind, impressive. Denmark proudly is on number seven where women are most likely to be raped in the universe and surroundings, blessfull Norway sits at 13, just beating Pakistan that is 14
Yep
Of course import of people who have culture has nothing to do with it
I know this post is quite early in the thread, but I've got to reply:
Seriously? Come on. Here's an old post that I wrote on this subject about a year ago:
[...] I just want to point out a couple of facts regarding Swedish rape statistics. One important explanation for the high Swedish rape rates is the fact that Swedish rape laws since 2005 are more including than the laws of most other countries. Cases that earlier would have been classified as sexual exploitation are now classified as rape. Since 2005, the numbers of charges for sexual exploitation have decreased and those for rape have increased.
You can read about the Swedish statistics for rape and sex offence here (http://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/rape-and-sex-offences.html) (an article in English at the website of the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention) if you are interested. Another factor that they point out, which I think is very important, is a growing tendency to report rape crimes to the police (probably due to increased gender equality among other things). Of course Sweden doesn't have the third most rapes in the world. The claim that Sweden has more rapes than, say, Congo is of course completely absurd.
I don't know where you looked up the statistics, but Nationmaster (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims) presents the same statistics and is the top hit on Google, so I suppose that's your source. If you look at the bottom of the page you'll see the claim that "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."
Furthermore, Finland - our neighbouring country that has the same rape percentage as Sweden - barely has any immigration at all.
[...]
Here's (http://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/news-from-bra/archive/news/2011-01-18-how-common-is-rape-in-sweden-compared-to-other-european-countries.html) another good article that confirms what I've written above. It explains that, although Sweden tops the statistics of reported sex crimes, the estimation of actual commited sex crimes is at about European average.
As many rapes as South Africa (http://www.irinnews.org/report/84909/south-africa-one-in-four-men-rape)? Please.
Bye!
Kadagar_AV
11-25-2014, 00:18
How about assault and gang rapes paltmull?
How do that curve look next to raised immigration from the Middle East and Africa?
Can you explain the vast increase by laws, or some other cultural change?
It is always a tragedy for wishfull thinkers when wishfull thinking doesn't resonate all that well with reality. Why don't you go looking for yourself. My advice: don't, stay the hell out of there and be thankful that you can.
Papewaio
12-04-2014, 02:05
I agree with immigration.
However it is a fallacy that you need to have more people, one only needs to look at Japan.
Japan is an aging population, decreasing birth rates and overall been trending economically downwards. However the per capita wealth has gone up.
More people means a bigger pie and more mouths to go around. So if the pie doesn't grow fast enough immigration can make a place worse off. Intergration takes time so the costs are upfront and the benefits down the line on a generational time scale.
Hi Fragony. I'm going to quote myself a third time now. I suggest you bookmark this post so you can read it the next time you want to discuss this subject.
Bye!
You are absolutily right, South Africa has the most rapes in the world. Sweden is second. Hey, I am just parroting the UN. Of ALL rapes 77.6% were muslim males. Quite an enrichment to Swedish culture.
What do the Swedes do? Wearingg a hijjab in protest because some jerkattacked a muslim girl
bye indeed
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372
Which two countries are the kidnapping capitals of the world?
Australia and Canada.
Official figures from the United Nations show that there were 17 kidnaps per 100,000 people in Australia in 2010 and 12.7 in Canada.
That compares with only 0.6 in Colombia and 1.1 in Mexico.
You're mostly parroting anti-muslim bloggers who do not know how these statistics work.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372
You're mostly parroting anti-muslim bloggers who do not know how these statistics work.
Comes from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet – Brå). BRÅ is an agency under the Ministry of Justice and is a centre for research and development within the judicial system.
The statistics of the amount of rapes comes from the UN.
Comes from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet – Brå). BRÅ is an agency under the Ministry of Justice and is a centre for research and development within the judicial system.
The statistics of the amount of rapes comes from the UN.
It's the conclusions that you are parroting from those blogs. And apparently you didn't bother to read the link I provided as it doesn't claim anywhere that the numbers are wrong, it only says they're absolutely not comparable. Take this for example about Sweden:
"So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record - one victim, one type of crime, one record."
whatever you want Hussie
I want you to realize that the number of rapes Sweden submits to the UN is not comparable to the one Mauritania or even Germany submits to the UN:
1. Not every country submits a number at all.
2. Some countries submit a zero or a number very close to zero, do you actually believe that, too?
3. In some countries women fear that they cannot trust the police with such a sensitive subject and/or do not want to appear as victims.
4. In some countries women cannot trust the police and the police will not record their case and/or not believe them.
5. Even if a country has reported cases and trustworthy police, the recording may not take place according to the same rules.
Seamus Fermanagh
12-09-2014, 19:51
I want you to realize that the number of rapes Sweden submits to the UN is not comparable to the one Mauritania or even Germany submits to the UN:
1. Not every country submits a number at all.
2. Some countries submit a zero or a number very close to zero, do you actually believe that, too?
3. In some countries women fear that they cannot trust the police with such a sensitive subject and/or do not want to appear as victims.
4. In some countries women cannot trust the police and the police will not record their case and/or not believe them.
5. Even if a country has reported cases and trustworthy police, the recording may not take place according to the same rules.
I'd like to extend on this noting that numerous places only use the term "rape" to denote what we in the USA label "stranger rape." Definitions for what should be reported aren't even truly equivalent and then you have to add in all of the reportage limitations noted by Husar above.
A zero rape count is, sadly, even less likely than I'madinnerjacket's enumeration of Iranian homosexuals.
I just found this nice article that shines an interesting light on the whole Sweden-debate this topic started with.
Apparently the problem is that Sweden is only so very tolerant according to its laws and in theory, but in practice minorities, including immigrants, are marginalized, don't get jobs and are often victims of hate crimes.
So the idea to portray the idea of integration of immigrants as a failure of the immigrants to integrate is quite wrong, given that swedish society is not nearly as inclusive as the outside image suggests. What people from the right call the "failed experiment" never actually took off, there was no experiment, just an attempt to start one that most people then rejected and didn't participate in. And now, as usual, the racists blame "the others", whom they refused from the outset, for not integrating well enough, "despite all those efforts" that never actually happened.
Article: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/12/sweden-racism-ultranationalism-201412151245833711.html
Like the rest of Europe, Sweden prides itself in its constitutional tradition based on a "respect for the equal worth of all and the liberty and dignity of the individual", as its constitution says.
But as the UN Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent concluded on its visit to Sweden the same week that the Sweden Democrats forced the country into early elections:
"It is our view that the Swedish philosophy of equality and its public and self-image as a country with non-discrimination and liberal democracy, blinds it to the racism faced by Afro-Swedes and Africans in its midst. No country is free of racism and Sweden is not an exception."
We can conclude that the problem is not too much multiculti, but too little of it, even in Sweden...
Kadagar_AV
12-16-2014, 03:55
I just found this nice article that shines an interesting light on the whole Sweden-debate this topic started with.
Apparently the problem is that Sweden is only so very tolerant according to its laws and in theory, but in practice minorities, including immigrants, are marginalized, don't get jobs and are often victims of hate crimes.
So the idea to portray the idea of integration of immigrants as a failure of the immigrants to integrate is quite wrong, given that swedish society is not nearly as inclusive as the outside image suggests. What people from the right call the "failed experiment" never actually took off, there was no experiment, just an attempt to start one that most people then rejected and didn't participate in. And now, as usual, the racists blame "the others", whom they refused from the outset, for not integrating well enough, "despite all those efforts" that never actually happened.
Article: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/12/sweden-racism-ultranationalism-201412151245833711.html
We can conclude that the problem is not too much multiculti, but too little of it, even in Sweden...
Oh my... Where to begin.
Frags starts a thread about Sweden... And then other foreigners chip in...
And now Husar beats it up a notch with an Al Jazeera link about Sweden... Yeah, you won the debate there dude :2thumbsup:
I only come in here to smack down the most stupid stuff...
Kadagar_AV
12-16-2014, 04:02
Just a note but we do - 560,000 this year (march 2013 to march 2014) - Germany does as well (1,226,000 in 2013) - what you are complaining about is actually normal for Europe as a whole...
Missed this post.
Would you please source that England gave permanent residency and citizen status to 560.000 and Germany to 1.226.000 people in a year? It goes against what I have been told (and have read).
I think you are just wrong, simple as that.
Wait, let me rephrase that: I KNOW YOU ARE WRONG. So there.
Swedens immigration politics is extreme, and you can't compare that to seasonal workers or others who don't get citizenship.
Sir Moody
12-16-2014, 09:56
Missed this post.
Would you please source that England gave permanent residency and citizen status to 560.000 and Germany to 1.226.000 people in a year? It goes against what I have been told (and have read).
I think you are just wrong, simple as that.
Wait, let me rephrase that: I KNOW YOU ARE WRONG. So there.
Swedens immigration politics is extreme, and you can't compare that to seasonal workers or others who don't get citizenship.
German : https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/SocietyState/Population/Migration/Current.html
According to provisional results, 1,226,000 people immigrated to Germany in 2013.
UK : http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/latest-immigration-statistics
I actually found a more up to date figure - 583,000 total immigration
Kadagar_AV
12-16-2014, 13:40
German : https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/SocietyState/Population/Migration/Current.html
UK : http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/latest-immigration-statistics
I actually found a more up to date figure - 583,000 total immigration
Did they get citizenship? As it looks, that figure counts guest workers such as me (working a season as ski instructor as an example).
Sir Moody
12-16-2014, 14:01
Did they get citizenship? As it looks, that figure counts guest workers such as me (working a season as ski instructor as an example).
Like all immigration stats (your own country included) it includes anyone who is granted residence.
Edit - just realised I was wrong its granted Residence not Permanent Residence which would be citizenship - have confirmed however this is also true of Swedish immigration stats
Real question is, do you want to have your enviroment go to hell just because it makes people won't will be part of any participation feel good about themselves, cozy within the comfortable bliss that is being absolutily morally superior, no questions asked, and none allowed.
It really isn't such a good idea to import people from the third world for votes. People who have to deal with what is wrong can tell. Soooo, let's bring it home. People who vote multiculti should be the first to give up their spare rooms.
But that won't be an option will it, multiculti is something others should do, amice. Let's start with Lady Ashton, is a baronnes, has a castle. Plenty of spare rooms probably. While a friend of mine lives on a camping because immigrants get priority because the EU wants it to be like that. I would apreciate it if she buys their food as well, saves my friend waiting for an hour waiting in the line for handouts.
And yeah, why can't I just take him in, I did exactly that though, 3 months didn't burden my 40square meter kingdom all that much.
Kadagar_AV
12-16-2014, 17:16
Like all immigration stats (your own country included) it includes anyone who is granted residence.
Edit - just realised I was wrong its granted Residence not Permanent Residence which would be citizenship - have confirmed however this is also true of Swedish immigration stats
No, the stats for Sweden I gave is permanent residency, citizenship.
Sir Moody
12-16-2014, 17:38
they don't add up then - according to your governments statistics site (which is a nightmare for a non Swedish speaker) - your Government granted 50167 citizenships in 2013
you have a population of 9644864 so that isn't 1% of your population - its 0.5%
your immigration total was at 115845 which is 1.2% so you must be mistaking the stats...
(taken from http://www.scb.se/sv_/Hitta-statistik/Statistik-efter-amne/Befolkning/Befolkningens-sammansattning/Befolkningsstatistik/25788/25795/Helarsstatistik---Riket/26040/)
Kadagar_AV
12-16-2014, 17:53
That source says immigration 2013 was 115.845
You read "Changed to Swedish citizenship"...
This source is more clear:
http://www.migrationsverket.se/download/18.5e83388f141c129ba6313943/1400506277636/tab1.pdf
first column left is yearly immigration...
Might be that guest students are counted here as well though (but that isnt many thousand).
Sir Moody
12-16-2014, 18:09
I think you are misinterpreting it - much like the German and UK statistics the total immigration is not total citizenship merely total granted residence (either via EU membership, Asylum or Applied)
the EU stats for 2012 agree with your Government's stats for 2012 on that page... (see http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics)
Does it matter, you aren't exactly hauling in what is friendly towards you. You must have to be deeply cynical to import voters that hate everything that just happens to be good about you, just to get votes.. And jobs at the EU, the UN if you are really lucky
Does it matter, you aren't exactly hauling in what is friendly towards you. You must have to be deeply cynical to import voters that hate everything that just happens to be good about you, just to get votes.. And jobs at the EU, the UN if you are really lucky
What matters is that you are wrong.
What matters is that you are wrong.
About the left importing voters?
About the left importing voters?
That and that all of them somehow hate what's good about us.
You only see the few troublemakers and then make blanket statements about all the others who actually like it here unless you/we continue to marginalize them.
Papewaio
12-16-2014, 23:02
About the left importing voters?
I wonder what the stats look like when factored for age, gender and education.
That and that all of them somehow hate what's good about us.
You only see the few troublemakers and then make blanket statements about all the others who actually like it here unless you/we continue to marginalize them.
I don't have have a problem with the immigrants, they are welcome. I have a problem with the multiuctural left who just don't understand that they aren't needed for everyone to live together in a normal way. Society is not a testlab for their fundamentalist thoughts on how a multiculturalist society should be. I am fine with immigrants not integrating, I will never ask them to, why should they. I got no problem with anything unless it intrudes. But the multicultural lefts has this vision of how society must be and they will never take no for an answer, they will never stop trying to make things as they would like to see it. I don't mind differences as long as nobody gets hurt.
But the multicultural lefts has this vision of how society must be and they will never take no for an answer, they will never stop trying to make things as they would like to see it.
And you don't?
And you don't?
No I don't, I don't even vote. I don't see society as a testlab. Multiculturalism is a religion and I don't like religion. I don't have to prove anything, multiculturelalists do, and desperatily hold on to their flawed ideas and claw out the eyes of anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Papewaio
12-17-2014, 09:29
Pakistan isn't a multicultural society...
Pakistan isn't a multicultural society...
What has Pakistan has to do with it. That I walk with you nonsense is a fine example of multiculturalism. The Sidney shooter probably never wanted to kill anyone but wanted to be killed, suicide by cop. The first reaction from multiculturalists is shrieking that it has nothing to do with islam, and I think that they are right this time, but the reflex is pretty obvious.
No I don't, I don't even vote. I don't see society as a testlab. Multiculturalism is a religion and I don't like religion. I don't have to prove anything, multiculturelalists do, and desperatily hold on to their flawed ideas and claw out the eyes of anyone who doesn't agree with them.
That you don't vote is hardly a good thing.
And there's a lot you have yet to prove, you can't just say you don't have to.
The combination of being wrong and thinking that you don't have anything to prove is also pretty bad.
Can you prove that multicultural societies are statistically worse than others without misreading rape statistics?
What has Pakistan has to do with it. That I walk with you nonsense is a fine example of multiculturalism. The Sidney shooter probably never wanted to kill anyone but wanted to be killed, suicide by cop. The first reaction from multiculturalists is shrieking that it has nothing to do with islam, and I think that they are right this time, but the reflex is pretty obvious.
Do you even know where the "I'll walk with you"-thing came from and who initiated it?
And if that's your standard for shrieking, then please stop shrieking about multiculturalists, it's getting on my nerves.
Deeply sorry abour your nerves, they must mean a lot to you to get you this upset. You know I am right, or you just don't know I am right yet.
Gilrandir
12-18-2014, 07:46
...the multicultural lefts has this vision of how society must be and they will never take no for an answer, they will never stop trying to make things as they would like to see it.
... multiculturelalists ... desperatily hold on to their flawed ideas and claw out the eyes of anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Hmm...:thinking: Are you sure you are talking of the lefts and multiculturalists in your home country and not about Putin and his Russists?
Hmm...:thinking: Are you sure you are talking of the lefts and multiculturalists in your home country and not about Putin and his Russists?
Only the former.
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