Why is the danger of fake weapons ignored?

[Kadagar_AV]

I don't know what to think of this... Apart from the Fergusson (sp?) case, a 12 year old were just shot.

Again, he had a soft airgun with the safety label removed.

None of the people shot thought it MIGHT, just MIGHT, be a bad idea to swing weapons around among people, or not at once surrender when police shows up.

Heck, the policemen want to get home to their families... You don't joke around with weapons around them, unless you want to be shot and killed.

Are these people effin morons, or what is happening?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Twelve year olds KNOW it is a toy and that they are just playing, so they don't worry about such things. Parents generally aren't aware that their kid is out playing with something that might look too real to a tense police officer. Sad.

[Kadagar_AV]

Twelve year olds KNOW it is a toy and that they are just playing, so they don't worry about such things. Parents generally aren't aware that their kid is out playing with something that might look too real to a tense police officer. Sad.

It's definitely a tragedy...

REGARDLESS though, when I was 12 I was into RPGs, and one day were on my way to a live with a crossbow...

Police came, and I at once turned around and put my hands around my head. I understood it was a tense situation, and acted accordingly. Don't blame this on the kid being "only" 12, good parenting includes respect for the police.

Specially when the kid had a gun with the safety label removed... I mean geez...

I have a theater knife at home, where the blade goes into the handle when you stab... Do you think I would approach a policeman with it, as I "knew I didn't have a weapon?".

This seems like a systematical error, but these 2 examples in a short timespan rather shows that the problem is with the black society, not the police.

[Kadagar_AV]

BTW, could we change the title to "12 year old" instead of black person?

I connected it with a similar case, but it wasn't in the USA. My bad.

[Kadagar_AV]

This is my point...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

[Kadagar_AV]

I messed up the thread start... Would be lovely if some mod could remove the thread altogether...

I have an important topic in mind, but this was a ill formulated...

[Brandy Blue]

This seems like a systematical error, but these 2 examples in a short timespan rather shows that the problem is with the black society, not the police.

There is a perception in black society that the police are not entirely fair to black people. Some of them exaggerate this, but there does seem to be some truth in it. Obviously that undermines respect for the police, which results in more frequent tense situations which can cause more "incidents." So its not as simple as blame the cops or blame the blacks. There is an ongoing problem that both sides contribute to, and has no easy solution.

As for the "effing moron" comment, keep in mind that a twelve year old does not have a fully developed adult brain. Apperently, plenty of college students do not have fully developed brains (http://www.livescience.com/7005-brains-young-adults-fully-mature.html) so when 12 year old kids act like they're not all there mentally, well there's likely a reason.

I knew a college student of average intelligence who was stopped by the cops for playing around with a toy sword in public after dark. If he'd been black would he be dead now? I don't know, but if a reasonably bright college student can get into trouble with a fake weapon, I'm not surprised that kids make similar mistakes.

Personally, I think its common sense to ban realistic guns and guns that can easily be made realistic by removing labels etc. You can't just say that good parenting includes teaching respect for the police and leave it at that. Does a child deserve to die because he didn't have good parents? Do the police deserve to be thrown into tense situations that could have been avoided, and then maybe have to live with the knowledge that they had shot an innocent child, just because the child didn't receive good parenting?

Brain fart or not, I applaud you for raising the subject. Its an important one.

[Kadagar_AV]

Wrote stuff

Wow, I've never seen you around here before... Welcome to the BR :2thumbsup:

I'm short on time, and will answer you properly later...

Very well made arguments though :bow:

[Montmorency]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z8qNUWekWE

Black = open fire instantly :shrug:

Whatever you think of black 'cultures' - unless of course that includes genocidal sentiments - police reactions toward black citizens are clearly systematically excessive.

Edit: It's also funny when you consider this type of thing often happens in "Open Carry" states.

[Kadagar_AV]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z8qNUWekWE

Black = open fire instantly :shrug:

Whatever you think of black 'cultures' - unless of course that includes genocidal sentiments - police reactions toward black citizens are clearly systematically excessive.

Edit: It's also funny when you consider this type of thing often happens in "Open Carry" states.

Open carry does not equal weapon in hand or reaching for.

Regardless, your posts come off as autistic enough times for me to not really care much about what you think.

You basically with your posts come off as a Sheldon from TBBT, without the superior mind and habit to offer people in distress a hot beverage.

[Montmorency]

Open carry does not equal weapon in hand or reaching for.

Actually, it does.

[Kadagar_AV]

Actually, it does.

Against policemen?

[Montmorency]

Against policemen?

A handful of seconds is enough to make such a judgement?

The issue is the perfunctory nature of warnings given, if at all given.

[Kadagar_AV]

A handful of seconds is enough to make such a judgement?

The issue is the perfunctory nature of warnings given, if at all given.

LOL... :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Yes, a handful of seconds is enough... Heck, half a second is enough if someone seemingly reach for a gun or lunge at you.

I guess you live in an academic lala land, and have no experience with real threat situations.

I have been aiming an assault rifle at a person, and I would have shot him instantly had he done anything stupid.

Why? Because that was my JOB, and I want to get home around 5 o'clock and be with the people I love. I think this is the point people like you just don't get.

[Montmorency]

Yes, a handful of seconds is enough... Heck, half a second is enough if someone seemingly reach for a gun or lunge at you.

Then, uh, maybe don't pull up the car right next to the individual? Maybe use a loudspeaker?

Your mindset is unbelievably rigid. You can't imagine any other way to respond to a possible threat as a cop than to immediately get on the scene and shoot first, ask questions later?

To say nothing of the fact that with white individuals police are much more 'understanding'.

[Brandy Blue]

I'm not sure I understand Montmorency's point about prefuctory warnings. Is a cop supposed to say to everyone he or she meets, "Don't draw a weapon, or a toy weapon, or look like you are drawing a weapon or toy weapon or I will have to shoot you?" I don't think that threatening everyone on sight is going to help relations between cops and the public much. Or is he or she supposed to spend 3 or 4 seconds saying that while someone finishes drawing the weapon and shoots the cop dead? Yes, a few seconds (or sometimes maybe a split second) is not enough time to makes such a judgement, but sometimes that is all the time the cop gets.

[Brandy Blue]

Looks like you posted an answer before I finished asking my question. Loudspeakers are probably not always a practical solution in real life policing, but might be sometimes.

[Kadagar_AV]

Then, uh, maybe don't pull up the car right next to the individual? Maybe use a loudspeaker?

Your mindset is unbelievably rigid. You can't imagine any other way to respond to a possible threat as a cop than to immediately get on the scene and shoot first, ask questions later?

To say nothing of the fact that with white individuals police are much more 'understanding'.

Maybe they pulled up next to, as there were civilians in the line of shooting, and they wanted the car between innocents and the perpetrator? I don't know how it is over there, but here police cars are bullet proof (well, to an extent).


How effin hard can it be to understand that if the police show up, you have most likely done something wrong, and REGARDLESS you should cooperate. In a meeting with the police, being polite is ALWAYS the right choice.

Heck, I was in the US and did a completely wrong move driving... In Sweden it would have been correct though.

Next thing I see is flashing lights...

I at once pulled over, and rolled my window down. The officer came, and I explained that I was from Sweden (he looked at my passport) and that I really had no idea that was unlawful there (something about a U-turn).

He told me it is, and not to repeat it, then he wished me a nice vacation. Heck, he even called me "sir".

[Montmorency]

I'm not sure I understand Montmorency's point about prefuctory warnings. Is a cop supposed to say to everyone he or she meets, "Don't draw a weapon, or a toy weapon, or look like you are drawing a weapon or toy weapon or I will have to shoot you?" I don't think that threatening everyone on sight is going to help relations between cops and the public much. Or is he or she supposed to spend 3 or 4 seconds saying that while someone finishes drawing the weapon and shoots the cop dead? Yes, a few seconds (or sometimes maybe a split second) is not enough time to makes such a judgement, but sometimes that is all the time the cop gets.

That's rather silly.

Police get a call - someone walking around with a firearm.

How to respond:

1. Cordon off and evacuate the immediate area, announce through amplified speech to the individual in question what the situation is, allow appropriate time to respond.

2. Pull up in a car right next to the individual in question, begin shooting before you even finish uttering the warning.

The fact of the matter is that no one advocates for the second, not even the "BUT THE COPS FEEL THREATENED" types. Why? Because we understand as a society that we can not begin with lethal force when the situation is ambiguous.

[Montmorency]

How effin hard can it be to understand that if the police show up, you have most likely don't something wrong, and REGARDLESS you should cooperate. In a meeting with the police, being polite is ALWAYS the right choice.

Heck, I was in the US and did a completely wrong move driving... In Sweden it would have been correct though.

Next thing I see is flashing lights...

I at once pulled over, and rolled my window down. The officer came, and I explained that I was from Sweden (he looked at my passport) and that I really had no idea that was unlawful there (something about a U-turn).

He told me it is, and not to repeat it, then he wished me a nice vacation. Heck, he even called me "sir".

There's a huge difference between that situation and what we can see happening in the video I linked.

Analogously, what if that policeman had yelled out of the car "Stop right now", then immediately rear-ended you in an attempt to push you off the road, while blasting his sidearm from the window like Dirty Harry?

Unreasonable, no?

[Brandy Blue]

That's rather silly.

Police get a call - someone walking around with a firearm.

How to respond:

1. Cordon off and evacuate the immediate area, announce through amplified speech to the individual in question what the situation is, allow appropriate time to respond.

2. Pull up in a car right next to the individual in question, begin shooting before you even finish uttering the warning.

The fact of the matter is that no one advocates for the second, not even the "BUT THE COPS FEEL THREATENED" types. Why? Because we understand as a society that we can not begin with lethal force when the situation is ambiguous.

You are assuming a specific situation which may or may not apply. Sometimes a cop doesn't know that there is a firearm in question until the bullets are already flying. Like I said, sometimes a loudspeaker may be the appropriate solution. Not always. Believe me, if there was one safe easy way that always worked, the cops would be using it. They don't want to get shot either.

[Kadagar_AV]

Monty, if you look at the video the perp had time to understand the situation.

In the video it also shows how the perp aimed what looked like a gun at people... Also he had his HOODIE UP making it hard to tell age.

As a policeman, driving up next to someone with a "maybe" weapon to get civilians safe is a very brave move.

The perp didn't cooperate, and was shot dead.

I blame it on bad parents and general US black culture.


Your example with rear ending and Dirty harry is just morose, I won't go to the level to address it more than if a cop acted that way, he wouldn't be able to stay for long in the police. Do you SERIOUSLY believe policemen can go on a rampage or two, or three... Without some superior officer raising and eyebrow and start questioning....

Wow, you really have no idea how the police work.

[Kadagar_AV]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-shows-cleveland-cop-shoot-12-year-old-tamir-rice-n256656

[Montmorency]

Monty, if you look at the video the perp had time to understand the situation.

In the video it also shows how the perp aimed what looked like a gun at people... Also he had his HOODIE UP making it hard to tell age.

As a policeman, driving up next to someone with a "maybe" weapon to get civilians safe is a very brave move.

The perp didn't cooperate, and was shot dead.

Delusional.


Do you SERIOUSLY believe policemen can go on a rampage or two, or three... Without some superior officer raising and eyebrow and start questioning....


Actually, yes. It happens all-too-frequently.


Wow, you really have no idea how the police work.

You have an uncharacteristically-high opinion of American institutions here. Hmmm...

[Kadagar_AV]

Delusional.



Actually, yes. It happens all-too-frequently.



You have an uncharacteristically-high opinion of American institutions here. Hmmm...

1. Then you haven't watched the vid.

2. Uh no. Questionable shootings generally is a topic in mass media. Not to mention they have a hearing, and have to go to a psychologist.

3. It's not like policemen really get rich... I think they go to work to make the world a better place. There are of course exceptions, like in all professions.

[Kadagar_AV]

Looking at that video, this is how I see it.

A) Police pull up close, probably to protect anyone else from fire.

B) The non-driving officer jumps out crouched with his car door between him and the perp.

C) The non-driving officer back off to get behind the car, for better protection.

D) Perp is still doing nothing to surrender.

E) Perp is uncooperative and makes a bad choice.

F) Non-driving policeman fires.

G) Driving policeman goes around the car, he is possibly firing at the perp. We don't see the perp (we know only one of the 2 shots were aimed center mass (alternatively first shot missed center mass which they should aim at in such situations), perp might still have been resisting arrest after first shot).



Perp could easily have avoided being shot. Drop the weapon and show your hands, how effin hard can it be?

The policemen acted tactically as they are trained. As long as you don't F with them, you will be safe (in 99,9999% of the cases). It's not like the police generally go around and execute people.

The perp effed up. And that's how it goes.

Oh, also looking at the video, in the beginning before police show up... I totally get why people called the perp in as a total maniac...







I say it again Monty; it's so obvious that your posts hold autistic tendencies, they also reveal that you never EVER have been in a tactical situation.

[Husar]

Looking at that video, this is how I see it.

A) Police pull up close, probably to protect anyone else from fire.

B) The non-driving officer jumps out crouched with his car door between him and the perp.

C) The non-driving officer back off to get behind the car, for better protection.

D) Perp is still doing nothing to surrender.

E) Perp is uncooperative and makes a bad choice.

F) Non-driving policeman fires.

G) Driving policeman goes around the car, he is possibly firing at the perp. We don't see the perp (we know only one of the 2 shots were aimed center mass (alternatively first shot missed center mass which they should aim at in such situations), perp might still have been resisting arrest after first shot).


Well no, for someone who calls others stupid you have a pretty bad reading comprehension and sight:

Loehmann shot him immediately after leaving his police car, at a distance of about 10 feet, the video shows. Then he ducked behind the car as Garmback, a training officer with eight years on the force, jumped out of his seat.

The young guy gets shot between your points B and C according to that. Which is the only way it CAN work because by jumping out right next to him the policeman is exposed to the guy and his gun before he gets behind the car. So he fires right away while he leaves the car.
Should be quite obvious as the guy drops onto the ground the moment the first policeman leaves the car, no idea where you see D and E happening.

[rory_20_uk]

In the UK, police and the population don't have guns. When guns are seen in the hands of children - even black children - the first thought isn't to shoot them.

In America, where police, security guards and of course the populace can have guns then I understand why there is this risk and hence making "fake" guns clearly fake is required.

If they want their guns, one of the prices is that police will kill people with phones, waterpistols, sandwiches etc.

~:smoking:

[Montmorency]

1. Then you haven't watched the vid.

I haven't watched the video that I posted in the first place and that you reposted, huh?

The video that is in real-time and shows very clearly a situation that gives the kid less warning than a GANG DRIVE-BY SHOOTING - and you blame him for not reacting fast enough?

Enough is enough. Good luck.

[Ironside]

Your example with rear ending and Dirty harry is just morose, I won't go to the level to address it more than if a cop acted that way, he wouldn't be able to stay for long in the police. Do you SERIOUSLY believe policemen can go on a rampage or two, or three... Without some superior officer raising and eyebrow and start questioning....

Wow, you really have no idea how the police work.

Welcome to the US, where black guys commit suecide by shooting themselves in the chest, in a police car, with a hidden gun after being searched, while being handcuffed with their hands on the back. (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/handcuffed-black-youth-shot-himself-death-says-coroner-n185016) I mean clearly there's nothing suspicious here at all is it? At least not according to the cops or the coroner. Still under investingation, but the odds of anything suspicious coming up is about 0.

The grand jury thing in Ferguson?

1 of 81 of the policemen was indicted in Dallas 2008 to 2012.
Civilians? Out of the 162.000 federal cases 2010, 11 cases declined to indict.
This is the situation were the prosecutor says: "This is the evidence I got, is it enough to prosecute?", nothing more, nothing less.
No bias at all, no sir.

There's alot of decent cops in the US, but the culture at some police districts are just nasty.

[Noncommunist]

3. It's not like policemen really get rich... I think they go to work to make the world a better place. There are of course exceptions, like in all professions.

Most jobs don't offer the prospect of getting rich. And even then, I doubt most fast food workers do their job out of passion for fast food.

It's possible that policemen may take up the job altruistically. But it also offers a chance to be brutish and be applauded for it and I'm sure there are people who join the force for that reason.

[HopAlongBunny]

Sorry Kad, the video makes it look more like an execution than a police intervention.
They must have been late for lunch, or something equally important.

[Ironside]

BTW, here's what the police witness report said about the situation (http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/how-reliable-is-police-testimony--365827139616). Compare it to the video.


1. Police said that Tamir Rice was seated at a table with other people.

2. Police said that as they pulled up, they saw Tamir Rice grab the gun and put it in his waistband.

3. Police said they got out of the car and told Tamir Rice three times to put his hands up but he refused.

4. Police said that Tamir Rice then reached into his waistband and pulled out the gun, and was then shot and killed by Officer Timothy Loehmann.

[Husar]

Yeah, that seems like a pretty accurate report. :rolleyes:

[Montmorency]

3. Police said they got out of the car and told Tamir Rice three times to put his hands up but he refused.

The police think they're safe with this one, but - what if it were true?

Then it would be even worse:

Police call from a distance for a person to disarm three times, and are refused each time.

In response, they drive right up to the individual - and demand surrender again, but from a meter away???

Well, at least Rice was such a good sport, standing passively in wait for the police car to drive up to his feet, given that he apparently had enough bravado to refuse to obey the cops multiple times.

And only reached for the (fake) gun once the car had driven up and its door was opening. See, what a gentleman.

:rolleyes:

[Greyblades]

Why is the danger of fake weapons ignored? Same reason the danger of real weapons are ignored: americans forgetting compromise also requires something from you instead of just the opponent.

[Sp4]

They actually taught us in school that toy guns are bad because we have this time once a year, where everyone dresses up and runs around with toy guns (no, not halloween). I remember having a teacher in class tell us that we should consider leaving the toy guns at home because it's not good to run around shooting toy guns at each other in public when there are other people doing shit that requires concentration.

At the time, it was all a load of bullshit and I'll wave my toygun into anyone's face! Toy guns are fun and make smoke!

I think this is a societal thing though. It's probably much easier to get some people to understand that toy guns might be bad.

[Sp4]

LOL... :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Yes, a handful of seconds is enough... Heck, half a second is enough if someone seemingly reach for a gun or lunge at you.

I guess you live in an academic lala land, and have no experience with real threat situations.

I have been aiming an assault rifle at a person, and I would have shot him instantly had he done anything stupid.

Why? Because that was my JOB, and I want to get home around 5 o'clock and be with the people I love. I think this is the point people like you just don't get.

So you hated the job? =p

[Fragony]

Unreckognisable weapons are worse, shooting pens, phones that are really a gun, that sort of stuff. I got an iphone that is really a taser, police will never see that it's a taser. Tasers are pretty harmless but a slow .22 is nasty.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why is the danger of fake weapons ignored? Same reason the danger of real weapons are ignored: americans forgetting compromise also requires something from you instead of just the opponent.

At least our government doesn't let politicians openly rape children.

[Husar]

I am fascinated by guns, something I do not tell my fellow Germans very often.
I used to remove the little red thing in the barrel of my toy gun myself as a kid.
I do not remember anyone ever thinking it was a real gun.
Children play, but apparently that is too much for some in the home of the brave?
Would people also chave called the police if real guns were not everywhere in the country and were not seen as a permanent safety threat?

[Fragony]

Don't worry it's lust incrediby fun to shoot at things. According to study men aren't mature untill they are 50.Not living things by the way, but it's fun to destroy a matermelon

[Montmorency]

Would people also chave called the police if real guns were not everywhere in the country and were not seen as a permanent safety threat?

Well, some people see it this way:

"Guns don't kill people - dangerous minorities with guns kill people'.

For example, our own Panzerjaeger!

[Fragony]

Don't worry it's lust incrediby fun to shoot at things. According to study men aren't mature untill they are 50.

[Greyblades]

At least our government doesn't let politicians openly rape children.

Eh?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Eh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_Guest_House_child_abuse_scandal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_paedophile_dossier

[Greyblades]

Ok, firstly I'm pretty sure none of that is open beyond "recently found out, is being investigated and likely to cause some heads to roll."

Secondly if you dont think, with it's size and equally dubious substance, the american government isnt also harbouring it's own kiddy fiddler rings I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Give it some time, our Savile will be matched with your Cosby.

[Montmorency]

ACIN is correct. American politicians don't rape kids openly.

They prefer to save the penetration for adult citizens.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ok, firstly I'm pretty sure none of that is open beyond "recently found out, is being investigated and likely to cause some heads to roll."

The dossier was openly talked about in the 1980s.....



Secondly if you dont think, with it's size and equally dubious substance, the american government isnt also harbouring it's own kiddy fiddler rings I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Give it some time, our Savile will be matched with your Cosby.

Until the evidence comes out on this side of the Atlantic, you can't claim moral equivalence just because you don't like America.

[Greyblades]

The dossier was openly talked about in the 1980s......Yeah, I dont know, what the :daisy: happend there. Why the hell didnt that dossier get into the public eye. It's the sort of thing that would get me so riled up I would go into politics to attempt a Cincinnatus, if I actually had the confidence to do so anyway.

I say a Cincinnatus instead of a Napoleon or Ceasar because I cant see myself ever being bothered enough to try keeping it up for more than a decade.



Until the evidence comes out on this side of the Atlantic, you can't claim moral equivalence just because you don't like America.Isn't that what you were doing? If I wanted to do equivilence I'd pull out guantanamo bay, then you'd pull out the indian massacres after which I'll pull the trail of tears, which you will reply with the irish famine, I'll mention the japanese internment camps, and you'll counter with the boer camps. After that we'll keep going back and forth, us doing the slave triangle, you continuing slavery long after we stopped, all until we get to the debunking of the justifications of nuking japan by which you'll call me a limey bastard and I'll call you a yankie twat and we stop talking to eachother for 2 months.

Lets skip all that and go back to the main point: I say the reason this sort of thing happens is because your government cant do anything about it because your government's ability to respond has been crippled by a party that thinks compromise means getting the other guy so fed up he gives up in frustration. Add in the almost rabid response the NRA makes when so much as a background check is proposed and all these shootings become inevitable.I wouldn't be so angry if my own nation wasnt in a semi symbiotic relationship with yours, your governments dysfuction might hamper my own, and I am also concerned that sort of politics will jump the pond.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ok, firstly I'm pretty sure none of that is open beyond "recently found out, is being investigated and likely to cause some heads to roll."

Secondly if you dont think, with it's size and equally dubious substance, the american government isnt also harbouring it's own kiddy fiddler rings I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Give it some time, our Savile will be matched with your Cosby.

Do such cabals exist? The odds, sadly, make it likely.

However, if you meant "harboring" to suggest any measure of condoning it, then I emphatically disagree.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do such cabals exist? The odds, sadly, make it likely.

However, if you meant "harboring" to suggest any measure of condoning it, then I emphatically disagree.

People didn't condone it here, they simply didn't give it any credence, because that was hard.

Anyway - you had the Catholic Priest scandal - which is exactly the same, if not worse.

[Greyblades]

However, if you meant "harboring" to suggest any measure of condoning it, then I emphatically disagree.

Absolutely not. I am under no delusions that the american people are more predisposed to tolerating paedophillia than anyone else, (*) but ACIN's first reply to me implied (intentionaly or not) that Britain is, and that's not exactly going to engender a brotherly feeling or result in a measured discourse, you know.

Additionally this happened before I was born and it wasnt one of the things that we were taught in history class, not that that was particularly unusual, considering.



(*)the american political class on the other hand is less certain, though at this point I am so jaded that if it turns out that they were baby eating lizard people all along it would only serve to reassure me that at least the :daisy: they were doing over the last few years actually had some intelligence behind it.

[Husar]

All I see are a lot of Anglo-Saxons arguing about who of their sub-groups leads the world in terms of paedophilia-acceptance and who is only second. ~;)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

People didn't condone it here, they simply didn't give it any credence, because that was hard.

Anyway - you had the Catholic Priest scandal - which is exactly the same, if not worse.

Mother Church was deeply hurt by that "sweep it under the rug" stuff. Priests who should never have been priested, and worse far too many excellencies who turned a blind eye or abetted. An episode of shame.

[Brandy Blue]

All I see are a lot of Anglo-Saxons arguing about who of their sub-groups leads the world in terms of paedophilia-acceptance and who is only second. ~;)

For the record, most Americans are not of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, even if you assume a very high figure for the number of English Americans.

Also, you might want to look into the history of the German Green party. The way I look at it, if you pick up rocks in the woods, you're likely to find nasty crawling bugs and worms hiding under them. American rocks, British rocks, German rocks ... does it matter?

[rory_20_uk]

Mother Church was deeply hurt by that "sweep it under the rug" stuff. Priests who should never have been priested, and worse far too many excellencies who turned a blind eye or abetted. An episode of shame.

Episode implies it was transient, and not something that has been a constant feature that is probably ongoing.

Precious little has been done to root this out - far more effort is spent in denying and hiding the problems.

~:smoking:

[Husar]

For the record, most Americans are not of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, even if you assume a very high figure for the number of English Americans.

Also, you might want to look into the history of the German Green party. The way I look at it, if you pick up rocks in the woods, you're likely to find nasty crawling bugs and worms hiding under them. American rocks, British rocks, German rocks ... does it matter?

People magically turn into Anglo-Saxons when they accept US citizenship, that's the American way.
The rest of your post is not helpful as that was not the topic.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Episode implies it was transient, and not something that has been a constant feature that is probably ongoing.

Precious little has been done to root this out - far more effort is spent in denying and hiding the problems.

~:smoking:

Not true of the two dioceses with which I have been affiliated since the scandal became public. Cannot speak for all of Mother Church.

[Brandy Blue]

@ Hussar

Well, one of the points that's been raised in this thread is that Americans are not all Anglo Saxons, or at any rate the cops don't think so. Perhaps a young guy who played too much with toy guns would be alive today if the cops thought he was a fellow "Anglo Saxon." So, no, I don't think there is any magic melting pot. Not for everyone.

I fail to see why you let English and American pedophiles pass unchallenged, but consider German ones off topic. Racial profiling? :laugh4:

For clarity, I am defiinitely kidding about the racial profiling. No accusations of Hussar being racist, no hidden sarcasm, no flaming.

[Husar]

@ Hussar

Well, one of the points that's been raised in this thread is that Americans are not all Anglo Saxons, or at any rate the cops don't think so. Perhaps a young guy who played too much with toy guns would be alive today if the cops thought he was a fellow "Anglo Saxon." So, no, I don't think there is any magic melting pot. Not for everyone.

I fail to see why you let English and American pedophiles pass unchallenged, but consider German ones off topic. Racial profiling? :laugh4:

No, the topic that I commented on was whether the public in the US or the UK is more willing to accept pedophilia. It was not about which country has more of it, but in which country more of it is not being prosecuted.


For clarity, I am defiinitely kidding about the racial profiling. No accusations of Hussar being racist, no hidden sarcasm, no flaming.

What's offending is that you think I cannot spot a joke. ~;)

[Brandy Blue]

No, the topic that I commented on was whether the public in the US or the UK is more willing to accept pedophilia. It was not about which country has more of it, but in which country more of it is not being prosecuted.



What's offending is that you think I cannot spot a joke. ~;)

Everyone knows that Germans don't have a sense of humor, unless they get US citizenship of course, and magically become Anglo Saxons. :2thumbsup:

[The Lurker Below]

14798

Most people are unaware of what police officers have to deal with. It's okay people, don't respect the badge, learn the consequences.

[Husar]

Most people are unaware of what police officers have to deal with. It's okay people, don't respect the badge, learn the consequences.

And criminals in the US are the only ones with illegal guns? Why are the hardly any such cases in most European countries while we can all name several from the US?

I'm very sympathetic towards a lot of the things police officers have to deal with. Ours get threatened as well, but they still manage to get home without shooting nearly as many people even if you adjust for population. Officers here arrest people all the time without shooting them on sight. Of course you can say the USA are very different, but then you have at best found the root of the problem...

http://www.dw.de/why-german-police-officers-rarely-reach-for-their-guns/a-17884779

It's a cultural problem and US culture simply kills a whole lot more people.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And criminals in the US are the only ones with illegal guns? Why are the hardly any such cases in most European countries while we can all name several from the US?

I'm very sympathetic towards a lot of the things police officers have to deal with. Ours get threatened as well, but they still manage to get home without shooting nearly as many people even if you adjust for population. Officers here arrest people all the time without shooting them on sight. Of course you can say the USA are very different, but then you have at best found the root of the problem...

http://www.dw.de/why-german-police-officers-rarely-reach-for-their-guns/a-17884779

It's a cultural problem and US culture simply kills a whole lot more people.

I have no doubt that some of our cultural themes/practices are tied into this.

Classic USA culture has always had a disrespect/distrust of official authority theme to it. Our early heroes -- Smith, Boone, Crockett were individuals who purposely went out PAST the boundaries of civilization and law/order (Boone actually breaking English law to do so). In literature, early figures include Natty Bumpo, Hester Prynn, and Huck Finn -- all of whom reject authority, society, and/or conventional constraints so as to pursue their individual dreams/ambitions.

There is a cultural theme that very definitely centers around a mistrust or at least wariness of central authority (the entire Bill of Rights speaks to that attitude as well) and that certainly plays a role in attitudes for interacting with police -- who have always had a less than positive interaction relationship with marginalized groups across many cultures/eras to begin with. So does our culture exacerbate the potential for violent police/public (especially marginalized sub groups)? Very likely so.