KLAssurbanipal
02-01-2015, 18:32
I have a big request. Can you change the Roman and German units to more historical?
I made similar thread about mistakes of Sassanids:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?148671-Important-request-to-CA-Mistakes-of-Sassanian-units
I know that there are 2 weeks to release and probably the game is in box. It isn't a problem, because most of new helmets, linothoraxes, armors etc. of RTW2 were added after game release with some patches.
You have the time for making it. Some changes - the 1st of my point for example is only few minutes to make. I know because it is only changing position of helmets in 3d model.
Please, don't ignore this message. There are a lot of fans who want these changes.
1. I noticed that the helmets aren't set properly - nasal don't protect nose, forehead isn't protected.
The problem they have helmets that have nasal (cover the nose). These helmets have nasals too high, and that is out from the face. The nose isn't protected.
Why do nasal idea, since it doesn't provide any protection on the nose?
In addition, many helmets are too high, which forehead isn't protected, too.
Following are two examples - helmets are exposed nose and forehead. Through such a thing a soldier is exposed to blows.
In the middle foreground is shown that the nose is fully exposed.
In the last line, I showed how it should look like.
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00626/xlu266eejjnq.jpg
Here are the helmets of reenactors. Here you can see how it should look like. The helmet protect forehead, and if it has nasal it protect the nose.
http://www.millennia.f2s.com/dem.jpg
http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/helmet-romanosass-pic-229x300.jpg
http://usna.edu/Users/history/abels/hh381/late_roman_barbarian_militaries_files/image013.jpg
http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/2005archeonlitus11.jpg
2. Generals should be different than standard units.
In Rome 2 generals and officers look like standard soldiers. They wear the same helmets, armors, clothes as normal units. Only a few Roman helmets and horned Briton helmets distinguished generals of standard soldiers. Other factions, that is - Hellenistics, Gauls, Germans, Iberians, Carthaginians, eastern, steppe haveare generals who look like normal units. They wear helmets and armor the same as hoplites, cataphracts, oathsworn etc.
I noticed that Attila has the same mistake. Roman generals look like standard infantry / cavalry. They wear helmets, which were the standard Roman equipment used by infantry, and Germanic units.
There are examples:
Blue helmets - use by Roman infantry and generals
Green helmets - use by Germanic units and Roman generals
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00608/bczf0d2mdk71.png
Roman emperor and Alan, Ostrogoth soldiers have the same helmets (green one from portraits):
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00608/fymlgfw0df2i.png
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00608/p702g6nh8fko.png
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00608/1ljsn36vuwe7.png
The blue ones (3 styles of one type) used by standard infantry:
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00608/g8mosl3nsup9.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXrXJSDCQ6Y&list=UUugJq15BiB-c1NDYPHiznWQ
However, in reality the Roman generals and officers had other, richer helmets than standard soldiers.
There are examples of 2 types helmets which could be good inspiration to making generals helmets.
The 1st one:
http://bottega.avalonceltic.com/rep_immagini/prod/ah6048.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Casque_orn%C3%A9_4%C3%A8me_si%C3%A8cle_Mus%C3%A9e_Novi_Sad_Colis%C3%A9e_Rome_Italie.jpg
http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/182586/Bejeweled_helm.jpg
The 2nd one:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/WLANL_-_koopmanrob_-_Helm.jpg
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82490&d=1244308275
http://www.artmajeur.com/files/nieczar/images/artworks/650x650/6982810_deurne-iv.jpg
There are excellent late Roman generals' helmets by tallented modder Razor. In the game I see only 4 Roman helmets. Please look how you can make variety for generals, officers, elite and standard units.
It's an excellent inspiration.
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00608/qlb1moy05aco.jpg
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00608/2cidgw6bhae5.jpg
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/jbwvoojl3ykr.jpg
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/tv6fa5toloez.jpg
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/hf33pg3fjsr4.jpg
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/l92ag1oo1jl8.jpg
I think I am not only one who want to see specific looking generals. I hope it will be more difference between generals and soldiers than Rome 2.
3. Sutton Hoo helmets should be used by kings, generals/ possibly officers only.
I think that Sutton Hoo helmet looks historical correctly, but I suggest to use them for generals and possibly officer's helmets. I'm afraid that will be situation from RTW2 - no specific helmets for officers, so they will look like soldiers. There are some other helmets to making Saxon infantry specific and different than other barbarian factions.
Another reason: It is very weird that Roman generals/emperors have helmets the same as elite and standard units, but Saxon elite units have helmets the same as kings/generals.
http://wiki.totalwar.com/images/2/26/TWA_Faction_Saxons.png
There are examples Sutton Hoo helmet for general/officer and another Vendel helemt for guards. I hope those helmets will be in game, too. It will be more variety and difference than other barbarian factions.
Some of you guys know plate by Angus McBride (Concord, 'Barbarians' - 3 Saxon warriors). I can't post it because there isn't possible - copyright.
Sources and reconstructions of those helmets:
a) There is ine the game actually. It's better for kings, generals/officers only.
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/schools/primaryhistory/images/worldhistory/sutton_hoo_helmet/ship_burial_helmet.jpg
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/schools/primaryhistory/images/worldhistory/sutton_hoo_helmet/replica_helmet.jpg
b) There isn't in the game actually. Use it if you want specific elite units and difference between generals.
http://www.armourer.eu/files/vendel-14-helmet-sweden%5B3%5D.jpg
https://33.media.tumblr.com/13a3c62f62c80b9c65256cbb9499576a/tumblr_mylnsb6lwi1r3080to1_500.jpg
4. There is a mistake with chainmail.
These chainmails are merging shoulder like chainmails used in the days of the Roman Republic and early Roman Empire. Please delete it. This is a mistake.
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/5csimglafi6u.jpg
5. Officers and generals have also mailed Phalera. This is a mistake.
There are no sources that Phalera used during the battle in late Roman Empire.
Just as in the previous section - such Phalera were used in the early Roman Empire.
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/nw3n2n46xn4y.jpg
6. If you want something specific to distinguish generals from standard soldiers that you can use muscular cuirasses.
You don't need to use Phalera to indicate the rank of generals / officers.
At that time, emperors, generals still wore muscled cuirasses.
Theodosius I has tiara and a tunic with long sleeves of late Roman fashion but he still has musled cuirass.
http://skepticism-images.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/images/jreviews/Theodosius-I.jpg
Muscled cuirasses used in Byzantine era, too.
7. Pteruges were still in use at late Roman Empire. However, I can't see it in the game.
Pteruges were characteristic elements is still used by the Romans in this era. Pteruges have been used for a long time, even in the Middle Ages by the Byzantines.
Please, add pteruges to show ancient Roman characteristic element. You have added Phalera and chainmails from an earlier era (Republican era, early Empire), but didn't add pteruges that actually were at late Roman Empire.
It will be good to add pteruges for generals, officers and elite units.
Examples of pteruges used by reenactors:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/30/a4/4e/30a44e738ef7914d030812b950791cb2.jpg
http://usna.edu/Users/history/abels/hh381/late_roman_barbarian_militaries_files/image013.jpg
https://periklisdeligiannis.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/with-dracofectio.jpg/IMG]
[IMG]http://storage.canalblog.com/21/63/246496/29608046.jpg
8. Tunica Manicata should be in the game as main Roman clothes.
In the game I see that Tunica Manicata is used by some units, and it isn't complete.
In Attila tunica manicata used by units are only 2 stripes:
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/23cmppt9weti.jpg
Only Roman emperor in video and screen has complete Tunica Manicata.
Please, make more various this type of tunic and make them more patterns.
Late Roman tunic are completely different from that ones from the 1st century AD.
http://legvi.tripod.com/valentiniani/equipment-clothing.html
There are sources:
http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/032318/files/011870851/tunica-manicata-blue.jpg
http://static.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/celticwebmerchant/full26949974_b.jpg
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/LIR-PAMos.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Villa06(js).jpg
http://www.susannaduffy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/piazza-armerina-mosaic-4.jpg
http://fast.swide.com/wp-content/uploads/roman-art-sicily-cover.jpg
There are tunics and replicas:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/sites/default/files/2008bv9092_tunic_egypt.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SYezzPwopF4/U0vbdq0g1NI/AAAAAAAAE1Y/Es0Li7bhrEA/s1600/Max-Tilke-costumes-5.jpg
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/images/Copticblue.jpg
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/images/Copticred.jpg
http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/2006archeon17.jpg
http://www.comitatus.net/images/comitatustunics4.jpg
http://legvi.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dcp_6567.jpg
https://historiskdrakt.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/tunica.jpg
http://static.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/celticwebmerchant/full26949974_a.jpg
http://img36.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Belted.jpg
9. Some Romans could haven't pants to more various of clothes.
Romans not always wore pants. You can make some soldiers without pants to make them more various.
There are examples with late Romans in tunica manicata without pants:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Villa06(js).jpg
http://www.susannaduffy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/piazza-armerina-mosaic-4.jpg
http://fast.swide.com/wp-content/uploads/roman-art-sicily-cover.jpg
Reenactor without pants:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c4/17/7d/c4177d67db4d2c0a9f61f500510f2bfa.jpg
10. You can make some Romans with short beards to more various faces.
In that period not all Romans are clean shaved. Look at mosaics, sculptures wtc. Some of them are in this thread in previous points.
11. Germans have weird clothes.
There are tunics with weird patterns. You probably have done it on the basis Tunica Manicata. But it is a different type. These patterns should be at the ends of the sleeves. Moreover, it is wrong to use two different patterns in one tunic.
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/ehe1qouqdpr9.jpg
There is an reenactor with correctly located yellow patterns.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Reenactor_with_ango.jpg
In screens there are only 2 of Germanic pattern tunics. It isn't various.
You can find more Germanic tunic patterns in this book:
https://ospreypublishing.com/germanic-warrior-ad-236-568-pb
These horizontal stripes look strange. The same was with the Gauls in RTW2.
I suggest you do the vertical stripes (like Germans in RTW2), but only for some soldiers, not for all soldiers in one unit.
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/ih2hougx67iv.jpg
CA, please change it. There are important and minor mistakes of Roman and German looking. There is a time. You can add these changes with update in day of release Attila.
Regards,
KLA
I made similar thread about mistakes of Sassanids:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?148671-Important-request-to-CA-Mistakes-of-Sassanian-units
I know that there are 2 weeks to release and probably the game is in box. It isn't a problem, because most of new helmets, linothoraxes, armors etc. of RTW2 were added after game release with some patches.
You have the time for making it. Some changes - the 1st of my point for example is only few minutes to make. I know because it is only changing position of helmets in 3d model.
Please, don't ignore this message. There are a lot of fans who want these changes.
1. I noticed that the helmets aren't set properly - nasal don't protect nose, forehead isn't protected.
The problem they have helmets that have nasal (cover the nose). These helmets have nasals too high, and that is out from the face. The nose isn't protected.
Why do nasal idea, since it doesn't provide any protection on the nose?
In addition, many helmets are too high, which forehead isn't protected, too.
Following are two examples - helmets are exposed nose and forehead. Through such a thing a soldier is exposed to blows.
In the middle foreground is shown that the nose is fully exposed.
In the last line, I showed how it should look like.
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00626/xlu266eejjnq.jpg
Here are the helmets of reenactors. Here you can see how it should look like. The helmet protect forehead, and if it has nasal it protect the nose.
http://www.millennia.f2s.com/dem.jpg
http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/helmet-romanosass-pic-229x300.jpg
http://usna.edu/Users/history/abels/hh381/late_roman_barbarian_militaries_files/image013.jpg
http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/2005archeonlitus11.jpg
2. Generals should be different than standard units.
In Rome 2 generals and officers look like standard soldiers. They wear the same helmets, armors, clothes as normal units. Only a few Roman helmets and horned Briton helmets distinguished generals of standard soldiers. Other factions, that is - Hellenistics, Gauls, Germans, Iberians, Carthaginians, eastern, steppe haveare generals who look like normal units. They wear helmets and armor the same as hoplites, cataphracts, oathsworn etc.
I noticed that Attila has the same mistake. Roman generals look like standard infantry / cavalry. They wear helmets, which were the standard Roman equipment used by infantry, and Germanic units.
There are examples:
Blue helmets - use by Roman infantry and generals
Green helmets - use by Germanic units and Roman generals
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00608/bczf0d2mdk71.png
Roman emperor and Alan, Ostrogoth soldiers have the same helmets (green one from portraits):
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00608/fymlgfw0df2i.png
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00608/p702g6nh8fko.png
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00608/1ljsn36vuwe7.png
The blue ones (3 styles of one type) used by standard infantry:
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00608/g8mosl3nsup9.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXrXJSDCQ6Y&list=UUugJq15BiB-c1NDYPHiznWQ
However, in reality the Roman generals and officers had other, richer helmets than standard soldiers.
There are examples of 2 types helmets which could be good inspiration to making generals helmets.
The 1st one:
http://bottega.avalonceltic.com/rep_immagini/prod/ah6048.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Casque_orn%C3%A9_4%C3%A8me_si%C3%A8cle_Mus%C3%A9e_Novi_Sad_Colis%C3%A9e_Rome_Italie.jpg
http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/182586/Bejeweled_helm.jpg
The 2nd one:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/WLANL_-_koopmanrob_-_Helm.jpg
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82490&d=1244308275
http://www.artmajeur.com/files/nieczar/images/artworks/650x650/6982810_deurne-iv.jpg
There are excellent late Roman generals' helmets by tallented modder Razor. In the game I see only 4 Roman helmets. Please look how you can make variety for generals, officers, elite and standard units.
It's an excellent inspiration.
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00608/qlb1moy05aco.jpg
http://pics.tinypic.pl/i/00608/2cidgw6bhae5.jpg
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/jbwvoojl3ykr.jpg
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/tv6fa5toloez.jpg
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/hf33pg3fjsr4.jpg
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/l92ag1oo1jl8.jpg
I think I am not only one who want to see specific looking generals. I hope it will be more difference between generals and soldiers than Rome 2.
3. Sutton Hoo helmets should be used by kings, generals/ possibly officers only.
I think that Sutton Hoo helmet looks historical correctly, but I suggest to use them for generals and possibly officer's helmets. I'm afraid that will be situation from RTW2 - no specific helmets for officers, so they will look like soldiers. There are some other helmets to making Saxon infantry specific and different than other barbarian factions.
Another reason: It is very weird that Roman generals/emperors have helmets the same as elite and standard units, but Saxon elite units have helmets the same as kings/generals.
http://wiki.totalwar.com/images/2/26/TWA_Faction_Saxons.png
There are examples Sutton Hoo helmet for general/officer and another Vendel helemt for guards. I hope those helmets will be in game, too. It will be more variety and difference than other barbarian factions.
Some of you guys know plate by Angus McBride (Concord, 'Barbarians' - 3 Saxon warriors). I can't post it because there isn't possible - copyright.
Sources and reconstructions of those helmets:
a) There is ine the game actually. It's better for kings, generals/officers only.
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/schools/primaryhistory/images/worldhistory/sutton_hoo_helmet/ship_burial_helmet.jpg
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/schools/primaryhistory/images/worldhistory/sutton_hoo_helmet/replica_helmet.jpg
b) There isn't in the game actually. Use it if you want specific elite units and difference between generals.
http://www.armourer.eu/files/vendel-14-helmet-sweden%5B3%5D.jpg
https://33.media.tumblr.com/13a3c62f62c80b9c65256cbb9499576a/tumblr_mylnsb6lwi1r3080to1_500.jpg
4. There is a mistake with chainmail.
These chainmails are merging shoulder like chainmails used in the days of the Roman Republic and early Roman Empire. Please delete it. This is a mistake.
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/5csimglafi6u.jpg
5. Officers and generals have also mailed Phalera. This is a mistake.
There are no sources that Phalera used during the battle in late Roman Empire.
Just as in the previous section - such Phalera were used in the early Roman Empire.
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/nw3n2n46xn4y.jpg
6. If you want something specific to distinguish generals from standard soldiers that you can use muscular cuirasses.
You don't need to use Phalera to indicate the rank of generals / officers.
At that time, emperors, generals still wore muscled cuirasses.
Theodosius I has tiara and a tunic with long sleeves of late Roman fashion but he still has musled cuirass.
http://skepticism-images.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/images/jreviews/Theodosius-I.jpg
Muscled cuirasses used in Byzantine era, too.
7. Pteruges were still in use at late Roman Empire. However, I can't see it in the game.
Pteruges were characteristic elements is still used by the Romans in this era. Pteruges have been used for a long time, even in the Middle Ages by the Byzantines.
Please, add pteruges to show ancient Roman characteristic element. You have added Phalera and chainmails from an earlier era (Republican era, early Empire), but didn't add pteruges that actually were at late Roman Empire.
It will be good to add pteruges for generals, officers and elite units.
Examples of pteruges used by reenactors:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/30/a4/4e/30a44e738ef7914d030812b950791cb2.jpg
http://usna.edu/Users/history/abels/hh381/late_roman_barbarian_militaries_files/image013.jpg
https://periklisdeligiannis.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/with-dracofectio.jpg/IMG]
[IMG]http://storage.canalblog.com/21/63/246496/29608046.jpg
8. Tunica Manicata should be in the game as main Roman clothes.
In the game I see that Tunica Manicata is used by some units, and it isn't complete.
In Attila tunica manicata used by units are only 2 stripes:
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/23cmppt9weti.jpg
Only Roman emperor in video and screen has complete Tunica Manicata.
Please, make more various this type of tunic and make them more patterns.
Late Roman tunic are completely different from that ones from the 1st century AD.
http://legvi.tripod.com/valentiniani/equipment-clothing.html
There are sources:
http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/032318/files/011870851/tunica-manicata-blue.jpg
http://static.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/celticwebmerchant/full26949974_b.jpg
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/LIR-PAMos.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Villa06(js).jpg
http://www.susannaduffy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/piazza-armerina-mosaic-4.jpg
http://fast.swide.com/wp-content/uploads/roman-art-sicily-cover.jpg
There are tunics and replicas:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/sites/default/files/2008bv9092_tunic_egypt.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SYezzPwopF4/U0vbdq0g1NI/AAAAAAAAE1Y/Es0Li7bhrEA/s1600/Max-Tilke-costumes-5.jpg
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/images/Copticblue.jpg
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/images/Copticred.jpg
http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/2006archeon17.jpg
http://www.comitatus.net/images/comitatustunics4.jpg
http://legvi.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dcp_6567.jpg
https://historiskdrakt.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/tunica.jpg
http://static.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/celticwebmerchant/full26949974_a.jpg
http://img36.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/Belted.jpg
9. Some Romans could haven't pants to more various of clothes.
Romans not always wore pants. You can make some soldiers without pants to make them more various.
There are examples with late Romans in tunica manicata without pants:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Villa06(js).jpg
http://www.susannaduffy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/piazza-armerina-mosaic-4.jpg
http://fast.swide.com/wp-content/uploads/roman-art-sicily-cover.jpg
Reenactor without pants:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c4/17/7d/c4177d67db4d2c0a9f61f500510f2bfa.jpg
10. You can make some Romans with short beards to more various faces.
In that period not all Romans are clean shaved. Look at mosaics, sculptures wtc. Some of them are in this thread in previous points.
11. Germans have weird clothes.
There are tunics with weird patterns. You probably have done it on the basis Tunica Manicata. But it is a different type. These patterns should be at the ends of the sleeves. Moreover, it is wrong to use two different patterns in one tunic.
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/ehe1qouqdpr9.jpg
There is an reenactor with correctly located yellow patterns.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Reenactor_with_ango.jpg
In screens there are only 2 of Germanic pattern tunics. It isn't various.
You can find more Germanic tunic patterns in this book:
https://ospreypublishing.com/germanic-warrior-ad-236-568-pb
These horizontal stripes look strange. The same was with the Gauls in RTW2.
I suggest you do the vertical stripes (like Germans in RTW2), but only for some soldiers, not for all soldiers in one unit.
http://files.tinypic.pl/i/00626/ih2hougx67iv.jpg
CA, please change it. There are important and minor mistakes of Roman and German looking. There is a time. You can add these changes with update in day of release Attila.
Regards,
KLA