View Full Version : CHARGES-Post Patch
Michael the Great
11-22-2002, 16:24
What's ur opinion and impression on the new (better)charges after the patch..i.e.spearmen gettin' breaked,wasn't possible pre-patch..
It seems that mostly cavalry enjoy the better charges,but what have u observed about infantry charges???
Well, having done quite a few tests I have noticed that cav don't actually break the spears on contact but in melee afterwards. But this makes the charges that much better as the cav can now be deployed much more aggresively.
Michael the Great,
I haven't observed any difference in infantry charges.
Charges into unprepared units (like on the move, or fighting someone else) seem to melt the target now. Heavy cav vs peasants is especially dramatic. Before the patch they'd seem to stop after killing the first or second soldier they hit, then further damage would be caused by regular melee. Now, I routinely see 20+ men die on the initial impact (normal unit size).
Since I avoid head-on charges to stationary spear targets, and the AI never does as well, I cannot say how head-on charges into spear units have changed, if at all.
Thane Talain MacDonald
11-22-2002, 23:53
HUZZAH. Now I just need to download it. I'm looking forward to 40 Chivalrics in Wedge melting a unit of swords that they run into from the side rather than stopping on top of them :P
I was wondering about charge bonuses, do they apply only at the 1st animation cycle or throughout the melee ?
I'm guessing that the charge bonus affects the individual cavalryman until they're stopped. However, the push-back penalty of the target soldiers being pushed back probably stays in effect for longer, which is probably why soldiers continue to die at an accelerated rate. If a unit isn't mortally wounded by the initial collision and first few seconds of fighting, I'll often try to pull the cavalry out, as they'll tend to start taking much heavier casualties. Plus it lets you slam 'em back in again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hosakawa Tito
11-23-2002, 01:47
That's the way to do it hoof, and even better the AI does it too. Once their charge is stopped the AI Cav will disengage, reform, then charge again. Beautiful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
A.Saturnus
11-23-2002, 16:02
In the name of electricity: CHARGE
Michael the Great
11-23-2002, 16:59
Ok,so,my question is...definetly the charge is determined by the weapon(s),but can please tell me why units like fanatics have such a high charge,when they only charge with a club http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif ???
Furthermore,why do pikemen who have the longest pikes,have a lower charge bonus than Feudal/Chivalric Sargents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I might not be the first to admit by im not a very good tactition, So my only stratergy i know to work for me is to charge my cavalry at everything i see fit.
I find this very effective, If my Army does not contain cavalry i usualy can't win.
I need the ability to charge my opponents off the field.
I find archers too expensive for the actual ammount of kills they mount up.
I have recently learned the value of defensive spearmen too.
If anybody is in doubt the charge works like this:
Chargebonus added to attackvalue and the round is solved at contact and thus instant. If the defender is killed (infatryman by knight for instance) then the momentum of the knight is carried on and the same goes for the next man. But I seem to remember something about a pushback bonus, perhaps the charge goes on if the target is pushed back?
That is why you can see good knights plow right through Peasants, I for one have seen a depleted unit of V3 Royal Knights (9 men) go through an entire unit of Peasants and go out the other side and begin killing them from behind...
Michael the Great
11-24-2002, 19:52
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 24 2002,12:49)]If anybody is in doubt the charge works like this:
Chargebonus added to attackvalue and the round is solved at contact and thus instant. If the defender is killed (infatryman by knight for instance) then the momentum of the knight is carried on and the same goes for the next man. But I seem to remember something about a pushback bonus, perhaps the charge goes on if the target is pushed back?
That is why you can see good knights plow right through Peasants, I for one have seen a depleted unit of V3 Royal Knights (9 men) go through an entire unit of Peasants and go out the other side and begin killing them from behind...
Pre or post patch??
Actually I have seen it in both... though not in the same instance. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The charge is not different in the two versions as far as I know. And especially not against no-spears...
Michael the Great
11-24-2002, 20:03
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 24 2002,12:57)]Actually I have seen it in both... though not in the same instance. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The charge is not different in the two versions as far as I know. And especially not against no-spears...
Ok,but how do u explain the fact that units such as ghazi infantry(maces),fanatics(clubs),JHI(polearms),Muhwaid Foot Soldiers(spears) have strong charges,i mean,JHI for instance have a much greater charge than any poleaxe unit,Muhwaid Foot have 7 charge,a much bigger charge than pikemen,as well as Chiv Sargents do...
And I can't understand why Fanatics and Ghazi Infantry have those charges as well.....
Look at the stats of those Fanatics and Ghazi... They are crazy They go running into the unit and just go hack'n slash everywhere... They are basically in a bloodrush. Crazy men charging have always been cinsidered very dangerous, so I think it is fitting.
Chiv Sargeants on the other hand are very orderly. They try to hold the formation rather than go and kill most enemies possible. You can say they know it is very dangerous to just run in and start killing, they are wise
Michael the Great
11-24-2002, 20:32
Seems odd that Chivalric Sargents got a better charge than Pikemen...with their long..aaaa...pikes,of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Ahhh... but you fail to consider the rankbonus... It adds 2 to spear's charge while it adds 4(!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif to pikes charge. So in effect the pikes have a better charge.
But still, it is very hard to maintain the cohesion of the unit if you are running with long poles out in front of you. Pikes walked most of the time unless they were specialists such as the Swiss.
The disengagement of cav is now important.
In one battle, Annie was on supportive role. When two allies armies engaged two of the opponents, Annie sent 3 French heavy cav and two sword units into the little space between the opponents' army.
Since Annie had to return attention to the left side where she was helping to hold another army, the timing of the Cav and the arrival of the swords units were a bit off (Usually Annie tries to send cav after swords is half way to the target area), the Cav arrived faster than the swords. The opponents sent a couple of spears and Annies cav got caught. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
But the timing was not too off: the swords are right there and could engage the opponents' spears. Then Annie disengaged the 3 cav, and found a path to the opponent's rear. Of course, the two allies army does most of the work, but the point is: try to disengage your cav when you got caught by spears. Then you may find the cavs are now very effective flanking instrument.
To disengage, you must first cancel current order (backspace).
Annie
Leet Eriksson
11-25-2002, 21:37
what ho?
CHAAAAAAAARGE
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
no comment really just ranting....
LadyAnn,
That was a masterful display of supporting role generalship in that game, and I would say was the reason we were able to win attacking that hilly map against good defenders. I haven't looked at the replay and I'm not sure what happened on the left, but your support on the right turned the tide there. When AMP repelled our final assault on his hill, your reserve force was in position to cut him down. I thought that was brilliant play on your part. AMP thought he was going to win that game by cascade routing us into one another, and it almost worked.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
Yuuki-san of the Takiyama,
I was able to perform the supportive role because one of the opponent had 4 catapult so he had to defend that hill. That left me the luxury of providing support to both side of the map.
The wait was semi-intentional, however. I was thinking if 3 armies are assaulting a hill, the 4th could wait for a counter attack. Plus, my guys hate seige weapons, so they are far way, catching their breath and have their morale up a bit.
But the delay of the assault from my units was because the game got longer than I expected, and the youngest baby was awaken and cries for milk. So I had to go to the kitchen to warm the milk bottle. When I came back, I saw the good defender was half way down the hill, so I charged up with all I got, one unit after the other (one hand was busy clicking and the other was holding the baby).
Anyways, if you could hear baby cries, it will add to the chaos of the battlefield. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Didn't have time to say GG afterward because of that...
Sometimes beating the best generals out there require more than luck. It requires a timely cry of a baby. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Annie
ps.: if you sometimes see Annie went silent and her army simple stop, that's because of emergencies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif On certain day, I am a very unreliable ally.
LadyAnn,
Thank you for finishing the battle, but I hope the baby didn't have to wait for his/her milk one second longer than necessary on our account. As always, we defer without question to the individual's judgement if he/she has to leave or not show up for that matter. You play when you can, and I know I have one of the best team players florins can buy when you're on my team.
AMP beaten by a nursing mother? You gotta love it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
I wouldn't go that far Yuuki. I only babysit for my sister (and my brother dropped in his little baby yesterday when he went out with his wife). Still far away from marriage and motherhood, etc. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Annie
Sorry Annie.
And it was, as the replay shows, La Pucelle in gleaming white armor commanding the French who secured the victory over an English AMP.
A.Saturnus
11-26-2002, 18:17
Before this thread turns into a child care debate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I better say something interesting:
I tested a bit how chiv knights work, so I let them charge different spearmen. Result: they defeat everything lower than chiv-sgts by charging right into the spear wall. So you can`t expect to stop chiv knights with ordinary spearmen. Chiv sgts, however defeat chiv knights in case of frontal assault. Then, I let the AI charge my chiv-sgts, to see how flanking works. Well, the chiv knights still lost, they just lost fewer and killed more. So flanking helps, but it`s still not a good idea to fight chiv-sgts this way, even when you disengage (what the AI did).
But then I tried something different: I turned my sgts with their backs to the knights and let the AI charge my back. Result: the sgts ran after less than 1 second ( ) and lost between 15 and 30 on impact. I tried it 5 times and it was always the same. The knights never lost a single man.
So when you can charge someone in the ba rear, do it
A.Saturnus,
Yes I get the same results. You can also rout an Order Foot on the spot with a charge into the back of the unit.
That sounds quite good guys.
I don't mind the lesser spears losing. But I'm right in asuming they lasted a very long time right (having done a few Lancers vs Spearmen myself)?
So now the spears if not of good quality only hold the enemy cav until help arrives, much like the good old Nags in STW. They could hardly defeat anybody but they lasted forever in a fight.
Michael the Great
11-26-2002, 23:43
Post-patch the game refelects reality much better,i mean all the armies had spears,and u can't say that simple,untrained spearmen could stop armoured ,trained,cavalry......
Btw,what do u prefer for cav,troops like Gothic Knights,who haven't got a great charge but they slaughter anything(AP included),or troops like Lancers,who smash in 2 thy enemy?
-------------------------------
"Asta-i pohta ce am pohtit eu..."
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.