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solypsist
11-17-2002, 09:30
Any long-term player of MTW knows the importance of Sweden: It holds vast wealth and and is detached enough from the mainland to be highly defensible, yet the AI tends to largely ignore Sweden.

Here is a mixed bag of ideas for the Early Game, for people who aren't playing the Danes:
1. If playing a Catholic nation, you probably won't be able to launch a crusade to Sweden since it's barely Christian enough to not be an option. You can, however, launch one to one of the northernmost rebel provinces like Livonia, and take it easily (provided you're allied to the countries you must pass through) once your staging ground is established (a fort, a dock and a shipyard with ship is all you need to build to get there.) Use one of the banners from your Crusade for the attack on Sweden. This tactice works well for far-away Euro factions like Italy and Spain.
2. Sweden is very susceptible to rebellion for a few years after conquest, so just bribing the rebel vikings that occupy it usually won't work unless you supplement with five or six friendly units at the same time (a decent tactic for the English, who can have ships from the homelands to Sweden in maybe 9 years).
3. You can build longboats on Sweden, which cheaply gets you on the water and into oceanic trade. All ocean areas surrounding Sweden are good, but the goal for the area is the English Channel.
4. Try and avoid the temptation to attack the Danes, since you can trade with them from your own ocean territory, and they make a nice buffer from foreign attack. They're weak anough that any aggression from the Danish can probably be beat back if you're fortified with a few archer and spear units.
5. Build build build. First the obligatory border fort, then 20% crops, then trading post, dock, mines and upgrades, and then trading post upgrades. Remember your staging ground (ie. Livonia) should be producing more boats occasionally during this time, so Sweden doesn't have to bother with a shipyard and can focus on upgrading the trading.
6. After you have a dock in Sweden, try and have a spy or assassin from a homeland province (with a dock) and transfer him/them over. Sweden, for some strange reason, really attracts enemy agents who use it as a traffic-heavy waypoint; your agents will catch enemies and gain valor which can be used for real missions later. If you can, send a princess to marry the conquering general and a bishop to start converting the population, too.
7. Norway can be tough, send a full-combat banner to take it if you decide to conquer it; preferably cavalry. Norway rebels may attack Sweden if they get too large.
8. If your faction is southern Euro, you can use Sweden as a staging ground for attacks on England, without having to fight your way through the mainland continent (ie. France and HRE) or bring a ring of boats around Iberia (very slow and expensive.) Once you attack England, your homelands are safe from English retaliation (unless they somehow border your lands) and your Swedish navy should prevent an attack on Sweden. A good way to take Scotland, if you feel you must.
9. When the Mongol horde shows up, and looks like it's going to wipe out your northern oupost (ie. Livonia or wherever), take all your men to Sweded via port, and then sell off the buildings. Your army is now safe from the Horde, unless the Horde takes Denmark.



okay, so let's see what everyone else has to say.

martin4444
11-17-2002, 21:55
Playing as Danes on expert, the very first turn I empty my main province (leave it undefended) and move into sweden, the rebels always retreat to norway, now I build a couple of vikings and conquer norway in a heartbeat and then you have a very good position to expand from. takes 5 turns tops. Then it's only a matter of building up the economy and move towards russia, throw them out, by then the Almonds are knocking on the french door so you use your navy and attack the almonds and drive them back to their own lands without them being able to attack your mainlands, and from there on it's only a matter of pushing everyone else of the map. Nice and easy.

Hakonarson
11-17-2002, 23:35
Sweden (and Norway) are easy meat for a Danish player - as Martin says - you get Seden by default on T1

I've only ever taken them otherwise as the English in v1, but Soly's post is pretty sound.

Except for the small point that if you're4, say, Spain or someone else in the Sth of Europe you'll already have to ahve a largeg naval network to get there in the 1st place, and chances are you've used much of it to expand your trae to the East unless you're particularly singleminded

HopAlongBunny
11-18-2002, 01:25
Sweden is great

I haven't played the Danes yet, but if I do Sweden is first on the list http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Great trade port and iron; easy to defend. The AI seems to forget about it as Soly said so its easy to pick up. The extra gold from trade does wonders for the balance sheet

insolent1
11-18-2002, 06:56
The Danes may not be willing to attack the 2 rebel viking units that are in sweden but once you have an army there no matter how good the units are or if the army is huge the danes will attack. It will be a mountain of royal knights so have plenty of spears & camp in the woods http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

solypsist
11-18-2002, 07:03
In the first post I kept mentioning Livonia as my example for a staging province to get to Sweden from inside Europe. The best place is actually Lithuania. It's held by rebels in the early game, and is pretty rich in tradeable items. The only problem is it's a fairly big territory and straight in the path of the Mongols if they choose to expand directly westward instead into Asia Minor.

As for the Danes attacking Sweden if held by the player, yes, it's a common occurance, but like I said it's usually no problem to defend successfully if you've used a proper army from your staging ground or include a few units from that Crusade option I mentioned.

insolent1
11-18-2002, 07:29
Lithuainia is better for holding compared to livonia which is very rebellious. Btw the people of novgorod always seem to get obliterated by rebellions as they can't garrison the provinces adequetly. In my recent danish camapign I marched into Russia & I had to laugh becuase their was 3-4 full stacks of pesants in every province except Lithuania which the novgorods failed to capture. Thats 4 campaigns since the patch & the people of novgorod got beaten by rebels in all 4 & very early.

Nobunaga0611
11-18-2002, 09:31
Good ideas Soly. I was actually suprised on how much you can make through trade in Sweden. As the Italians I held Sweden, with a chain of ships all the way around Spain, across the Mediterranean, and Into the Black Sea. I make something like 1000-2000 k per year with simply a Trading Post. Definitely not bad.

chunkynut
11-18-2002, 11:53
I only have ships to tuscany's sea zone and with a merchant get over 1200 florins per turn. A high acumen govener works wonders here i think the lord of sweden also is my lord chamberlin lots of money for my military http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

ulyanov
11-18-2002, 13:00
Starting in Spain (Early, Hard) I took the Iberian Rebel provinces, then Ireland, Scotland, Sweden and Norway. all in about 50 years. I'm now the richest, and have the largest army. - My trade routes stretch from the Baltic to the Eastern Med. Sweden is copping 2600 florins a turn, and I havent't built a merchant yet, just the trading post...

I went Port, Fort, tradingpost...

Nobunaga0611
11-18-2002, 17:17
They get pretty good money for land upgrades. So using up about 4 years for the basic 20% increase isn't a bad idea.

hoof
11-18-2002, 18:50
I'm playing the Danes this time around (hard level), and have a string of boats going all the way to Constantinople. Right now Sweden is pulling in over 5,000 florins a turn, by itself (80% farms, 1st upgrade to Trade Post). That's the highest single-territory amount I've ever seen.

Nobunaga0611
11-18-2002, 19:17
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Then, just for fun, take Constantinople as well, build that up, and you'll definitely like how much you make there. It'll be at least twice as much.

candidgamera
11-18-2002, 19:25
Playing HRE-normal now and have taken Sweden-turned out in a strange way. Danes attacked me in Saxony (Danish Royal Family Banzai Charge), decimated themselves, captured their king and got about a 10K ransom. Sweden had been successfully bribed - Danes never tried to take it (3 tries against a +50% bribe general, and then he didn't gain a vice, kept virtue when bribed - nice). Turn after beating Danes in follow up invasion, got rebellion in Sweden, couldn't get forces in enough strength - not so good planning - lots of Hobilars, so invaded/retreated to Denmark with Swedish forces, reinforced from Saxony. Rebels followed me in, bribed half of them and beat the crap out of the rest. Money on hand only thing preventing me from bribing for more Hobilars. In the end thank you Sweden for all that nice light cav. Went in again and took held Sweden finally. Now have a 9 acumen governor (Hard Sums, Numerate with base 4 accumen - needless to say married him into the family) and it makes about 900 a turn with estimated one trading post up grade, not much of trade net, the first mine, and 20% crops. Swedish/Danish campaign made me a 3 star emissary too.

Norway - seems like not worth taking except to prevent others making it a beachhead for further operations.

Lithuania - finding either its massively held by rebels, well held by Russians, or now home to too many Byzantines.

I like Sweden as HRE for its inaccessibility as mentioned. Taking it helps me do my second stage of internal expansion for HRE.

HopAlongBunny
11-19-2002, 04:48
Tried for an Early game "capture" of Sweden as the Italians. Absolute failure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Crusade to Finland to by-pass the Byzantines; then I figured "Why not just buy Sweden?"
Emissary bribes and Sweden is mine Finland can provide support eventually...so far so good.

A few years pass, bribe Norway to solidify control; Danes invade Sweden...retreating to Norway...Byzantines invade Finland...eventually lose it...Danes decide Norway would be nice too...Exit Italian adventure in Scandanavia

solypsist
11-19-2002, 05:39
wow, that sux. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

sounds like the Byz were the powerful faction in the game if they made it up that far.

ulyanov
11-19-2002, 12:21
Hopalong -

I wouldn't try taking anything I can't resonably guarantee having SLOC's to, for reinforcement at least, but also for the trade benefit.

Now for the Spanish it was easy - no enemies, so straight up the English Channel.

For the Italians It's an extra 6 hops, I guess, but think of the extra $$$, and when you get into High era it's only 7 hops in total...

HopAlongBunny
11-20-2002, 04:19
The dream was to nab Sweden early and make it a self supporting enterprise. Just couldn't get a ship built fast enough to get the 1500 crusaders over from Finland.

My consolation prize was scooping the independent republic of Naples

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Brown Wolf
11-25-2002, 21:30
Sweeden is a good provience to have. Though I beleive that Normandy is too much trouble to deal with. I'm beginning to think that it is best to wait and take Saxony as soon as possible (it seems that now the AI is actually weaker than the rebels them selves), and consider attacking Poland or Prussia.

Thrax
11-28-2002, 12:07
In one campaign I was the danes.. Took over Sweeden, and a few other provinces in that area. I ended up allying with nearly everybody, so all I did was concentrate on hitting rebel states and building ships for trade.

I kept real low-key, and had a link of ships from the north all the way to the black sea. I made tonnes of money, and had a bank of 150000 florins. Then I made war with everyone around me and crushed them. Easy enough...

I think in the end sweeden alone was making 4000+ florins per year, it was insane.

Foreign Devil
11-28-2002, 21:51
In my current campaign, I'm playing as the Danes. So far, i have all of scandanavia, saxony, all of britian, and i'm working on france. Currently, my trade routes extend around italy. My economly is decent, but for some reason I don't think I ever built a merchant in sweden... I'll have to do that.