Now, these are not terrorists, right? Just your average muslim refugees... [Archive]

Husar

04-17-2015, 10:04

I assume the idea is that Europe should bomb these boats while they're at sea?

All I see is sarcastic bitching but no solution. Meanwhile the left is bitching about how these refugees are often also killed at sea by the authorities, kept in gulags on arrival and mostly sent back anyway. In that little spanish enclave the border guards constantly violate EU laws by redefining where the border actually is and sending people back to the other side after beating them up even if they made it over all three fences. Oh and spain pays the Morroccan police to swipe through the refugee camps, destroy their tents and food and also beat them up and send them to gulags when they inevitably try to get to the fence anyway.

So if we're too lax I assume that you want us to blow up the boats at sea with all the christians and muslims and buddhists and their children on board and then post the pictures along the African coast line. That will surely stop the evil muslims from entering boats in order to pre-emptively kill the christians.

Or we could build a wall through the mediterranean and all the way up around Ireland and Norway. Make it border on Russia in the arctic and on Russia in the black sea and leave Putin to deal with the immigrants. Then annex Switzerland and throw out all the foreigners such as McDonald's, McKinsey, Ford, Toyota, Pizza Hut, little pizza place on the corner, Walmart and confiscate all their assets for the greater European good. We already have ALDI, VW, Saab, Roland Berger Consulting and SAP, we don't need any foreigners operating here.
I propose we call the European Capital "Germania".

So what is it, bombing, wall or something else? Let your creative juices flow and give me constructive solutions or cry me a river.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

04-17-2015, 11:27

Was it because these people were Christians, or because the boat was running out of food and water, and these people were Christians?

In barbarous backwards countries where the majority are Muslim the majority of barbarous acts will be committed by Muslims. Now if you want to discuss why the Muslims are currently barbarous and backwards, that's a different question.

Fragony

04-17-2015, 11:35

Husar

04-17-2015, 12:25

Interesting case developing, a Dutch war-corrospondent is crowdfunding for holding the immigration-industry responsible causing the many deaths, I'll see how that goes. Wilder's party makes the most sense, give humanitarian aid locally and use the development-budget for that without financing the NGO's who's core-business is immigration.

Do you seriously think the work of local NGOs who help immigrants here is what makes all these people try to come over here?
The development aid we just send over there is usually eaten by corruption and politicians or leads to their farmers going out of business because they cannot compete, thereby increasing the problems of unemployment, inequality and the dream of becoming a rich football player in Europe. It's always easy to say that we should just throw money at the problem while we hide behind a wall, but it doesn't always make the problem go away.

So we're back to bombing the boats?

Beskar

04-17-2015, 12:27

Gilrandir

04-17-2015, 13:15

Or we could build a wall through the mediterranean and all the way up around Ireland and Norway.

Just let Putin have his way in Africa and Asia and in a year or two there will be no Muslims out there, but only Russian World supporters. Then you can sanction the hell out of them.

I propose we call the European Capital "Germania".

I would extend it to "GrossGermania".

Fragony

04-17-2015, 13:55

or, you can use the budget to make life good in these other countries, then they have no reason to immigrate.

My maid really tried, came back disilusioned and very very traumatised.

Husar

04-17-2015, 15:18

or, you can use the budget to make life good in these other countries, then they have no reason to immigrate.

I think that's what he meant, but as I said, just throwing money and food at them will probably not achieve that very fast. We need a solution now (instant gratification), so maybe bomb until the wall is built?

I would extend it to "GrossGermania".

That's a strange name for a city.

Gilrandir

04-17-2015, 16:48

That's a strange name for a city.
No more than Germania.
When my father-in-law served in DDR their familiy had a suitcase which they called GroßGermania - they said that it could house a middle-sized person. Since the capital is gonna be large anyway I thought the name could suit it perfectly.

Papewaio

04-17-2015, 20:27

Just let Putin have his way in Africa and Asia and in a year or two there will be no Muslims out there, but only Russian World supporters. Then you can sanction the hell out of them.

I would extend it to "GrossGermania".

Right, because the USSR at its peak walked right over Afghanistan and ate cake doing it.

Sarmatian

04-17-2015, 21:59

105 on the boat, 12 thrown overboard, the rest saved themselves by "forming a chain and resisting strongly" and 15 convicted.

So there were either only 15 Muslims on the boat, which is very unlikely, OR, not all Muslims were involved in the hideous act.
As always, lock up the criminals, leave the rest alone.

Raise the education level and reduce poverty, it has nothing to do with religion. During the wars in Yugoslavia, horrible crimes were committed by both Muslims and Christians (of all denominations).

Just let Putin have his way in Africa and Asia and in a year or two there will be no Muslims out there, but only Russian World supporters. Then you can sanction the hell out of them.

I would extend it to "GrossGermania".

Can't you leave current situation in Ukraine outside at least one thread? Pretty please...

Brenus

04-17-2015, 22:02

"Right, because the USSR at its peak walked right over Afghanistan and ate cake doing it." No, it is Gilrandir working on his sense of humour, and his obsession of Putin as Big Bad Wolf, then combine them.

"Raise the education level and reduce poverty, it has nothing to do with religion" What? Cancelling the benefit of the Free Market and the right to plunder 3rd World Countries? Are you MAD? Why do you hate freedom?

Sarmatian

04-18-2015, 06:28

"Raise the education level and reduce poverty, it has nothing to do with religion" What? Cancelling the benefit of the Free Market and the right to plunder 3rd World Countries? Are you MAD? Why do you hate freedom?

Because I'm an eastern European, dictator-loving pinko. What's your excuse?

CrossLOPER

04-18-2015, 07:37

Right, because the USSR at its peak walked right over Afghanistan and ate cake doing it.

It actually did until the US got seriously involved.

Brenus

04-18-2015, 08:46

"Because I'm an eastern European, dictator-loving pinko. What's your excuse?" I want my T-shirt at 10 p, heir of Gavrilo Princip Monarchist killer anarchist supporter.

Gilrandir

04-18-2015, 15:13

Right, because the USSR at its peak walked right over Afghanistan and ate cake doing it.
And that's what did the USSR in.

Can't you leave current situation in Ukraine outside at least one thread? Pretty please...
Why don't you ask, for instance, Kadagar or Fragony to leave their anti-Muslim rhetoric outside at least one thread? Or is it quod licet jovi, non licet bovi?

No, it is Gilrandir working on his sense of humour, and his obsession of Putin as Big Bad Wolf, then combine them.

Now I will remember two rules of the forum:
1. No fiction vs real world situation comparisons are allowed.
2. Sense of humor is welcome from the priviledged members only.

Montmorency

04-18-2015, 15:57

So - you want to emulate Kadagar and Fragony? :inquisitive:

Gilrandir

04-18-2015, 16:06

So - you want to emulate Kadagar and Fragony? :inquisitive:

I want equal treatment.

Husar

04-18-2015, 16:17

I want equal treatment.

You want people to ask us to ban you?

Gilrandir

04-18-2015, 16:33

You want people to ask us to ban you?

For mentioning Putin in my posts? Now I'm not sure his agents aren't at work here.

Sarmatian

04-18-2015, 16:53

I want equal treatment.

Kadagar and Fragony don't use Muslim rhetoric all the time. Kadagar spends a healthy amount of time voicing his displeasure about USAians and Fragony hates all immigrants equally (along with lefty pinkos) because they be polluting his culture. Like you can pollute a culture in which people wear wooden shoes.

They've also been known to talk about totally different things.

But, most importantly, they tend to speak about their beliefs when it is pertinent to the discussion. So, in the Ukraine thread we talk about Putin, but there's absolutely no reason at all to mention him when we talk about violence between Christian and Muslim African refugees who are trying to smuggle themselves to Italy.

There's absolutely no connection between Putin and Libyan refugees, not even a miniscule, remote one. Don't be a one trick pony.

Gilrandir

04-18-2015, 17:17

They've also been known to talk about totally different things.

I also talked about books, music, chemtrails, vaccination, Saudi king's death, Iran, shrinks examining pilots, foodstuffs (milk and apples) and other things. So either you are not aware of that or you choose to present me the way it suits your agenda.

But, most importantly, they tend to speak about their beliefs when it is pertinent to the discussion. So, in the Ukraine thread we talk about Putin, but there's absolutely no reason at all to mention him when we talk about violence between Christian and Muslim African refugees who are trying to smuggle themselves to Italy.

There's absolutely no connection between Putin and Libyan refugees, not even a miniscule, remote one. Don't be a one trick pony.
Correct. But it is also true that in the Ukraine thread there was a lenghty discussion on language development and acquisition. As well as there was no need for RVG to introduce a pro-Russian rebellion concept in the New Balkan State thread. Yet he did and no one batted an eyelid. Discussions tend to ramify and I see no reason in trying to limit them. Unless it is personal dislike.

Brenus

04-18-2015, 18:37

"Now I will remember two rules of the forum:
1. No fiction vs real world situation comparisons are allowed.
2. Sense of humor is welcome from the priviledged members only." And why these 2 rules applied in the present intervention? It was not humour?

Sarmatian

04-18-2015, 19:34

Sense of humor is welcome from the priviledged members only.

I want equal treatment.

Correct. But it is also true that in the Ukraine thread there was a lenghty discussion on language development and acquisition. As well as there was no need for RVG to introduce a pro-Russian rebellion concept in the New Balkan State thread. Yet he did and no one batted an eyelid. Discussions tend to ramify and I see no reason in trying to limit them. Unless it is personal dislike.

Firstly, these are my observations. I have zero influence on what happens here. The fact that I'm a "senior" member only means that my long term contribution has been noted by the Org leadership. It doesn't make me more important than any other member.

Secondly, we're not running a concentration camp here. We're all allowed some leeway but we have to try to stick to topic otherwise it will turn into a reddit-like discussion.

Thirdly, rvg did it once, while you do it much more often. One could say almost all the time.

Most importantly, don't think I dislike you because I don't agree with you. I don't agree with rvg, but I like him (I mean he's of Assyrian descent, is it possible not to like him???). I don't like your posting style because you often try to portray propaganda as facts, while the quality of discussion here is usually much better, and you try to weasel out and you nitpick and take cheap shot too often, but, in my opinion you're improving. It takes a while to get used to the Backroom. I know it's hard not to take some stuff said about your country personally, especially when there's an ongoing crisis, but it is possible. I just think you'd be better off not mentioning Putin, Russia or Ukraine as often. Again, don't presume I speak for the entire forum. This is my personal observation.

Husar

04-18-2015, 20:50

I was about to say you should stop discussing a relatively minor issue.
While I generally agree that Gilrandir mentiones Putin a bit often in unrelated discussions, I did find it somewhat funny this time around, that's why I thanked the post.

On second thought, discussing that might be better than going with the original intention of the topic, but that's just my opinion. :creep:

Fragony

04-19-2015, 05:59

Kadagar and Fragony don't use Muslim rhetoric all the time. Kadagar spends a healthy amount of time voicing his displeasure about USAians and Fragony hates all immigrants equally (along with lefty pinkos) because they be polluting his culture. Like you can pollute a culture in which people wear wooden shoes.

They've also been known to talk about totally different things.

But, most importantly, they tend to speak about their beliefs when it is pertinent to the discussion. So, in the Ukraine thread we talk about Putin, but there's absolutely no reason at all to mention him when we talk about violence between Christian and Muslim African refugees who are trying to smuggle themselves to Italy.

There's absolutely no connection between Putin and Libyan refugees, not even a miniscule, remote one. Don't be a one trick pony.

lol I guess I have tell my sometimes girlfriend I hate her, she is a muslima from Iran. She dispisesislam more than me

And me priviliged? Did I suddenly become a senior member? (not at you)

Husar

04-19-2015, 10:11

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32311358

About 400 migrants are feared drowned after their boat capsized off Libya, survivors have told Save the Children.
The Italian coast guard rescued 144 people from the boat on Monday and launched an air and sea search operation in hopes of saving others.
Hundreds more migrants rescued from boats in the Mediterranean are due to arrive in Sicily during the day.
More than 8,000 migrants have been picked up since Friday, and more boats are heading for the Italian coast.

Obviously this is all the fault of the greens, the tree huggers and the fact that our air isn't quite as polluted anymore.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/17/refugees-eu-policy-migrants-how-many-deaths

But equally important is responsibility. In all the rage about migration, one thing is never discussed: what we do to cause it. A report published this week by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists reveals that the World Bank displaced a staggering 3.4 million people in the last five years. By funding privatisations, land grabs and dams, by backing companies and governments accused of rape, murder and torture, and by putting $50bn into projects graded highest risk for “irreversible and unprecedented” social impacts, the World Bank has massively contributed to the flow of impoverished people across the globe. The single biggest thing we could do to stop migration is to abolish the development mafia: the World Bank, International Monetary Fund, European Investment Bank and European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.

So much about throwing money at these countries to "solve the problem". We've thrown money and bombs at Africa for quite a while now and the stream of migrants seems to have increased rather than decreased.

Gilrandir

04-19-2015, 10:46

Thirdly, rvg did it once, while you do it much more often. One could say almost all the time.

I think it would be fair to supplement it with this

This is my personal observation.

I don't like your posting style because you often try to portray propaganda as facts, while the quality of discussion here is usually much better, and you try to weasel out and you nitpick and take cheap shot too often, but, in my opinion you're improving.

I noticed the same crimes you charge me with in others' posts, so what you term as "my style" is not that unique. Once you said that you discuss things here, so I don't see any reasons why any of the tactics described by you can't be used in such discussions and I'm not aware of any limitations imposed by the rules of the forum on using them.
Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

I know it's hard not to take some stuff said about your country personally, especially when there's an ongoing crisis, but it is possible.
From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

We're all allowed some leeway but we have to try to stick to topic otherwise it will turn into a reddit-like discussion.
See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

lol I guess I have tell my sometimes girlfriend I hate her, she is a muslima from Iran. She dispisesislam more than me

Can one be a football fan and despise the game? I think that if one professes some religion one can't despise it. So one of the statements is not true.

Sarmatian

04-19-2015, 10:58

Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

You misunderstood me. Facts about the documentary. I was talking about what he said in the documentary and the fact is he said that in the documentary. He may be lying, but he said that. Again, I'm not talking about what happened in reality, but what he said in the documentary. That is a fact and can be easily verified by watching the documentary.

From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

I don't think anyone ever did that (paint Russian policies white), but okay. And I don't believe in shortcomings of a country, only in shortcomings of political leaders.

See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

Exactly. There was absolutely no need to mention Putin in this thread and it derailed the thread.

Also, for future reference, anything I say about politics is my personal opinion. I don't represent this board, my country, my town... Just me. Ok?

Fragony

04-19-2015, 11:10

I think it would be fair to supplement it with this

I noticed the same crimes you charge me with in others' posts, so what you term as "my style" is not that unique. Once you said that you discuss things here, so I don't see any reasons why any of the tactics described by you can't be used in such discussions and I'm not aware of any limitations imposed by the rules of the forum on using them.
Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

Can one be a football fan and despise the game? I think that if one professes some religion one can't despise it. So one of the statements is not true.

Being born muslim doesn't mean you submit to islam, I am much more mild than her. She doesn't believe in moderate muslims at all.

Gilrandir

04-19-2015, 11:19

And I don't believe in shortcomings of a country, only in shortcomings of political leaders.

When you visit a country you see things which you may not like (customs, meals, practices). It would be a far-fetched assumption to explain their existence by the political mismanagement of the country's leaders.

Being born muslim doesn't mean you submit to islam
You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

Husar

04-19-2015, 11:41

Also, for future reference, anything I say about politics is my personal opinion. I don't represent this board, my country, my town... Just me. Ok?

So you want the benefits of citizen-/membership but none of the responsibilities?
We chose you as our official spokesperson in a secret member meeting that you were unfortunately excluded from.
It is therefore your duty to represent us all.

You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

Fragologics strike again.

Fragony

04-19-2015, 12:23

You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

Do you know what happens to people that make a point out of abandoning islam? She is a muslim only in name, she hates the islam and I don't blame her.

Gilrandir

04-19-2015, 12:54

Do you know what happens to people that make a point out of abandoning islam? She is a muslim only in name, she hates the islam and I don't blame her.

Then she is as good as abandoned it having done it nice and quiet. Unless she continues to go to mosque and follow the rites.
But I thought in the Nertherlands one was free to choose and lose one's religion.

Gilrandir

04-19-2015, 12:55

So you want the benefits of citizen-/membership but none of the responsibilities?
We chose you as our official spokesperson in a secret member meeting that you were unfortunately excluded from.
It is therefore your duty to represent us all.

This "us" starts to appal me somehow.

Fragony

04-19-2015, 13:19

Then she is as good as abandoned it having done it nice and quiet. Unless she continues to go to mosque and follow the rites.
But I thought in the Nertherlands one was free to choose and lose one's religion.

You are but it's a bad idea to make a point out of it, atracts the loonies. She doesn't want to have anything to do with it, but isn't exactly waiting for the consequences that comes with rejecting it alltogether. Abandoning islam is the worst crime you can commit in the eyes of fundamentalists, we gladly don't have a lot of the dangerous kind but it's still not worth the trouble. She's just a cute Iranian girl that was born muslim.

Gilrandir

04-19-2015, 13:51

You are but it's a bad idea to make a point out of it, atracts the loonies. She doesn't want to have anything to do with it, but isn't exactly waiting for the consequences that comes with rejecting it alltogether. Abandoning islam is the worst crime you can commit in the eyes of fundamentalists, we gladly don't have a lot of the dangerous kind but it's still not worth the trouble. She's just a cute Iranian girl that was born muslim.
So she continues to ostensibly practice it, but privately hates it?

Fragony

04-19-2015, 14:12

So she continues to ostensibly practice it, but privately hates it?

She doesn't practise it at all. But making a point out of abandoning it is more trouble than it's worth, she will get harrased, people will come at her parents door and ask them why they don't correct her. Her parents won't do that becausr they feel exactly the same. They know what it is to live in an islamic state and got the hell out of there.

edit: another 700 drowned, actual numbers still unknown but geez, can we please stop holding a carrot. What a nightmare that must have been.

Kadagar_AV

04-19-2015, 17:54

As my views have already been both expressed and defended, with me having nothing to do with it what so ever, I don't really know what to contribute with here...

I dislike Islam :shrug:

Husar

04-19-2015, 19:22

edit: another 700 drowned, actual numbers still unknown but geez, can we please stop holding a carrot. What a nightmare that must have been.

Are those 700 a new number of the 400 I linked earlier or is it 1100 total?
And do you think "not holding a carrot" would stop most of them? A lot of them try to get in illegally if I'm not mistaken. All those people venturing into the US over the fence, through tunnels, in trains, cars and trucks as well as the ones who try to claim the deadly fence into Spanish territory despite the illegality of their act do not seem to care much about the actual immigration policies of European countries.
Or do you mean we should burn Europe down and destroy our industry because that is what attracts them?

Fragony

04-19-2015, 19:27

No this is a new accident, horrifying.And what makes you assume I am so cold-hearted, I am against illegal immigration and the NGO's that have blood on their hands.

edit, numbers aren't actually comfiirmed by the way, 700 is a rough estimate

Sarmatian

04-19-2015, 19:50

Well, at least we can rest easy knowing that Libya is a democracy now and that everything was worth it.

rajpoot

04-19-2015, 19:53

Kadagar_AV

04-19-2015, 21:34

What is even the point of the Islam bashing? There are loonies in every religion. Christians and Buddhists have their own loonies and thugs although they're fewer in number. Even Hindus have loonies. You just have to look at some of the statements these people have been making here ever since BJP came into power in India. Retarded Hindu hardliners crawling out from every nook and cranny, forcing people whose farthers and forefather might've converted to Islam to convert back to Hinduism. Making statements like, the Chritians and Muslims who don't undergo birth control operations shouldn't have the vote...It's just stupid.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if a small percentage of the practicing population of a certain religion is not loony, it means there's scope in that religion for it to be interpreted in a moderate manner that does not cause discomfort to others. And till that scope exists, bashing that religion is more counter productive than anything else.

You are right that all religions have loonies, of course.

It's just that Islam seem to have SO DAMN WAY MORE OF THEM!!!!!!!

See, that is the problem. Buddhism is about 1/3rd the size of Islam... Yet it's not like 1/3 of the horrible and gruesome international terrorist acts we hear of are made by buddhists. Right?

And that IS the problem. All religions are NOT the same, and Islam just happened to be founded by a desert living tribal pedophile with a god complex.

Several hundreds of years later we still see the effects of this idiot.

Brenus

04-19-2015, 22:27

"And till that scope exists, bashing that religion is more counter productive than anything else." Because to keep it down (the really nasty aspects I mean, as Gender Discrimination, Racist and call to murder others) did work did it?

So what would be "productive" if your view?ignoring the facts that our ally the Saudis chop hand off to robbers, kill the gays, lashes opponents, discriminate women in all aspects of life, and have no others religions allowed on their soil?

Yes, there are loonies in all religions, because Religions attract loonies like honey bees. So, let's apply the common law, and all books calling for racism, discrimination, violence should be ban, and all organisations supporting these calls should be make illegal. Ooops, no more religions, what a shame...

Husar

04-19-2015, 23:16

No this is a new accident, horrifying.And what makes you assume I am so cold-hearted, I am against illegal immigration and the NGO's that have blood on their hands.

I didn't say you're cold-hearted, I'm saying your point that NGOs are solely responsible for this is complete rubbish. Immigrants aren't attracted by hippies who take care of them, they are attracted by peace and prosperity. So unless we become poor or make Putin nuke our continent they will continue to come here even if we burn all our hippies at the stakes. We have plenty of capitalists who have done much more to make these people come here than any NGOs ever could by the way. I'm not saying NGOs are blameless, some of them do cause harm over there, but you always put the blame solely on them and that's just rubbish.

See, that is the problem. Buddhism is about 1/3rd the size of Islam... Yet it's not like 1/3 of the horrible and gruesome international terrorist acts we hear of are made by buddhists. Right?

Well, we didn't just place a nation of a different kind of religious hardliners and terrorists in the middle of buddhist territory either. And then what we "hear of" is a very good way to say it because all those drone strikes and military strikes christians and others perform all the time don't get the headlines but when an islamist kills a dozen journalists it's all over the news for weeks. If every wedding that Obama bombed had been in the news for weeks you might think christians are the biggest murderers by now. Unless you're one of those who think Obama is secretly a muslim anyway. ~;)

Kadagar_AV

04-19-2015, 23:44

I didn't say you're cold-hearted, I'm saying your point that NGOs are solely responsible for this is complete rubbish. Immigrants aren't attracted by hippies who take care of them, they are attracted by peace and prosperity. So unless we become poor or make Putin nuke our continent they will continue to come here even if we burn all our hippies at the stakes. We have plenty of capitalists who have done much more to make these people come here than any NGOs ever could by the way. I'm not saying NGOs are blameless, some of them do cause harm over there, but you always put the blame solely on them and that's just rubbish.

Well, we didn't just place a nation of a different kind of religious hardliners and terrorists in the middle of buddhist territory either. And then what we "hear of" is a very good way to say it because all those drone strikes and military strikes christians and others perform all the time don't get the headlines but when an islamist kills a dozen journalists it's all over the news for weeks. If every wedding that Obama bombed had been in the news for weeks you might think christians are the biggest murderers by now. Unless you're one of those who think Obama is secretly a muslim anyway. ~;)

Oh Husar :no:

* I totally acknowledge that the West agreeing to make the Jewish claim on Israel a reality was ill advised, probably by jews.

* That however has nothing to do with why Muslims can't behave on an international scene.

* You have to separate national warfare from terrorism... I am NOT saying national warfare can't **** up, just look at the last US wars. What I mean is that we at national warfare at least have someone responsible...

And yes, I leave rogue nations like the US out of the last argument, because of obvious reasons (like not signing the international laws of warfare like the rest of the grown ups did).

Husar

04-20-2015, 00:34

Oh Husar :no:

* I totally acknowledge that the West agreeing to make the Jewish claim on Israel a reality was ill advised, probably by jews.

* That however has nothing to do with why Muslims can't behave on an international scene.

* You have to separate national warfare from terrorism... I am NOT saying national warfare can't **** up, just look at the last US wars. What I mean is that we at national warfare at least have someone responsible...

And yes, I leave rogue nations like the US out of the last argument, because of obvious reasons (like not signing the international laws of warfare like the rest of the grown ups did).

Come on, I'm sure if you really try you can come up with a somewhat reasonable response.

Let me help you out with the following question: What do you think constitutes "behaving on an international scene"?
Would you consider spilling oil all over other peoples' countries well-behaved?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2015/03/hundreds-of-oil-spills-continue-to-blight-niger-delta/

Royal Dutch Shell and the Italian multinational oil giant ENI have admitted to more than 550 oil spills in the Niger Delta last year, according to an Amnesty International analysis of the companies’ latest figures. By contrast, on average, there were only 10 spills a year across the whole of Europe between 1971 and 2011.

Shell reported 204 Niger Delta spills in 2014 while ENI, which operates in a smaller area, reported a staggering 349 spills.

“These figures are seriously alarming. ENI has clearly lost control over its operations in the Niger Delta. And despite all its promises, Shell has made no progress on tackling oil spills,” said Audrey Gaughran, Amnesty International’s Global Issues Director.

Kadagar_AV

04-20-2015, 01:19

Come on, I'm sure if you really try you can come up with a somewhat reasonable response.

Let me help you out with the following question: What do you think constitutes "behaving on an international scene"?
Would you consider spilling oil all over other peoples' countries well-behaved?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2015/03/hundreds-of-oil-spills-continue-to-blight-niger-delta/

Spilling oil is very rude and should of course be prosecuted.

However, WHAT has that to do with super powers blowing people up mainly because they can, or terrorists who blow people up because their tribal sand people book say so?

Oh Husar, you are really grasping at straws here, aren't you? You SERIOUSLY think you somehow "won" the debate by completely shifting the focus to oil spills, instead of staying on the topic that is - Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.

Husar

04-20-2015, 03:45

Oh Husar, you are really grasping at straws here, aren't you? You SERIOUSLY think you somehow "won" the debate by completely shifting the focus to oil spills, instead of staying on the topic that is - Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.

Where's the terrorism in throwing people off a refugee boat in the middle of nowhere?
Who is grasping at straws here?
It's murder and they're being prosecuted, they didn't even have any weapons and failed once the others united against them. The extrapolation from a few extremists to all muslims is just stupid. If I were to find all the murder cases of New York (328 in 2014!) and claim that "New Yorkers sure have a habit of murder" it would be just as stupid.

Fragony

04-20-2015, 06:03

Husar

04-20-2015, 10:58

Again the all thingie. Not all, a lot. Kads has never said all, neither have I ever done so. People who look away from a problem, islamapoligists, are part of the problem. Islam isn't just a religion, it's submission. It doesn't mean all muslims submit to islam. Most muslims only care about what's for dinner, you aren't doing them a favour, they are terrified of extremists.

Then maybe he should say "Some muslims sure have a habit of terrorism." It's not my fault if he or you fail to express yourselves clearly. I also wasn't talking about you in case you didn't notice it, are you two a holy duality now?

Fragony

04-20-2015, 12:04

Then maybe he should say "Some muslims sure have a habit of terrorism." It's not my fault if he or you fail to express yourselves clearly. I also wasn't talking about you in case you didn't notice it, are you two a holy duality now?

I am pretty sure Kads and me agree on some things. And yeah it's your fault if you read 'all' when it says 'a lot' and draw conclusions.
Kads is just being reasonable, I don't understand how you can miss that.

Husar

04-20-2015, 13:19

I am pretty sure Kads and me agree on some things. And yeah it's your fault if you read 'all' when it says 'a lot' and draw conclusions.
Kads is just being reasonable, I don't understand how you can miss that.

Now you may be the one with reading issues, it only says "Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.", there is no "a lot" and no "all" but without a modifier "all" is usually implied. I didn't miss anything, I went with the normal interpretation of what he said and it's no secret that he wants them all gone from his country unless he has suddenly started to use some weird interpretation of the word "islam" like you do.

Again, I won't take any responsibility if you people fail at communicating your point. If you use a different interpretation of a word than 7 billion other people, then it is your responsibility to explain/define it and not mine to guess what you may mean.
To me muslims are people who follow the religion of islam with a wide variety of interpretations and islamists or islamic terrorists are the muslims who use a very violent/strict interpretation of islam and try to blow us up in some cases. This interpretation is mostly anologous to the one we use for christians, where christian fundamentalists are the ones who interprete the bible very strictly and/or try to impose biblical rules on others.
I am aware that you define the terms rather different but even you usually do not mean terrorists when you say things like "I don't mind muslims, I have a problem with the islam" (may not be an exact quote in this case). So even according to your own terminoplogy, Kadagar's statement was rubbish. And I wasn't even aware that he uses the terms in the same way you do. As far as I understand him, he simply wants all muslims gone from Sweden because he thinks they are fundamentally incompatible with the way he wants Sweden to be and that sort of attitude makes it even more likely that he was making a sweeping statement about all muslims since he seems to think they are all potential terrorists. If he wants he can clarify this, until then I maintain that the statement was rubbish.

Gilrandir

04-20-2015, 13:42

She doesn't practise it at all. But making a point out of abandoning it is more trouble than it's worth, she will get harrased, people will come at her parents door and ask them why they don't correct her.

Do you mean one has to blow a horn and ring a bell to proclaim one abandons worshipping? I thought one just stops going to mosque and others will understand.

Yes, there are loonies in all religions, because Religions attract loonies like honey bees.
Let's officially proclaim all monasteries lunatic asylums and churches psychatric clinics and have done with it.
Only I can name half a dozen other things which attract loonies: computer games, football, Communist party, casinos, Seliger conventions, gangsta rap (heavy metal thirty years ago, Beatles 60 years ago), G-7 meetings, social networks, horse track, drugs, anti-vaccine movement.... What are we to do with all of them?
It is like I said: people bring their attitude with them to whatever field you may mention. If this inherent attitude is violent, they will succed in distorting any originally perfect idea (like Communism). So one is to critisize people not the games they play.

So unless we become poor or make Putin nuke our continent they will continue to come here even if we burn all our hippies at the stakes.

Oh no. Not Putin again. Do you remember that Sarmatian... wait, you say there's the mysterious "us". Then proceed. I shouldn't really "meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger".

Then maybe he should say "Some muslims sure have a habit of terrorism."
:idea2: Let us put it this way: Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims.

Montmorency

04-20-2015, 13:53

So one is to critisize people not the games they play.

Well, both actually, but in the proper context. For example:

Let us put it this way: Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims.

The Muslim world numbers in the billions of individuals, and it is in civil war.

That's the key here.

Think the European Wars of Religion mediated by contemporary globalization and technological influence on society.

Ultimately the religion itself proves a trivial factor here (that is, the problem of Muslim terrorism).

Think about this:

Why did the Puritans succeed economically? If you take the Weberian approach, because their religious culture influenced their economic practices.

That's all well and good, and I would agree to a large extent. "Illusions have causal influence", after all.

However, now consider this question:

Why did the Puritans go to America?

Was it because of their religion in any meaningful way? Probably not. It's not like they had anywhere else to go. Geography and politics is the answer to this question, not religion.

Gilrandir

04-20-2015, 14:02

Well, both actually, but in the proper context. For example:

The Muslim world numbers in the billions of individuals, and it is in civil war.

That's the key here.

Think the European Wars of Religion mediated by contemporary globalization and technological influence on society.

Ultimately the religion itself proves a trivial factor here (that is, the problem of Muslim terrorism).

Think about this:

Why did the Puritans succeed economically? If you take the Weberian approach, because their religious culture influenced their economic practices.

That's all well and good, and I would agree to a large extent. "Illusions have causal influence", after all.

However, now consider this question:

Why did the Puritans go to America?

Was it because of their religion in any meaningful way? Probably not. It's not like they had anywhere else to go. Geography and politics is the answer to this question, not religion.
A disclaimer: in case someone didn't get it - my conclusion on muslims vs terrorists was a sarcasm.
What I meant by people and games: religion (as well as any other social practice and activity) can move people both to good and bad things. There no sense in blaming religion (or any other social ptactice) in what people do.

Husar

04-20-2015, 14:20

Oh no. Not Putin again. Do you remember that Sarmatian...

You couldn't just quietly enjoy that, could you?

wait, you say there's the mysterious "us". Then proceed. I shouldn't really "meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger".

Of course there is a mysterious "us", if there is no "us" then there are no immigrants "here".

Montmorency

04-20-2015, 14:25

No, but it is important - as are all aspects of culture, right? The point is to avoid trivialization. Sociologically-speaking, how do elements of cultural contribute to behavior? Also, how do elements of social structure contribute to behavior? How do structure and culture interact?

It's very intellectually-lazy to just declare that everything Muslims do is determined by their religion(s), and that therefore everything that Muslims do which I don't like is determined by their religion(s). On the other hand, painting all humans as "unique individuals and special snowflakes" is just a libertarian delusion.

The best way to approach it, all-in-all, is to note some basic facts that most would agree with:

1. The world is too globalized for societies to avoid or ignore each other.
2. The conflicts of individual Muslim societies, as with most societies through history, are strongly local or regional.
3. The Muslim world as a whole is experiencing more instability than any other segment of the world.
3.a. There are conflicting influences of individualism and collectivism, democracy and totalitarianism in politics.
3.b. Economic inequality is present, and economic inequality leads to political unrest and mobilization.
3.c. Technology enhances communication, mobilization, and information transfer.
3.d. There are major sectarian divides within and between Muslim societies that overlap with differences in intra-society social power and inter-society economic and political power.
4. Religious identities can strongly mediate other identities during times of turmoil or stress.

What do we get when we combine all of this?

Montmorency

04-20-2015, 14:31

TLDR: Muslim terrorism both within the Muslim world and against the West is largely a product of internal struggles and transitions in that world. And a problem situation affecting billions in a specific set of ways, in this day and age, is a global issue with global consequences. Muslim terrorism can only disappear if and when these issues are worked out.

Unfortunately, due to the size of the problem and interconnectedness of the contemporary world, the issues cannot be worked out without major accompanying changes throughout all societies across the world - European society, Chinese society, American society, etc.

Sorry to break it to the thread, but there are no easy solutions, and certainly not anything like "Keep Muslims out of the West".

Fragony

04-20-2015, 14:33

Where's the terrorism in throwing people off a refugee boat in the middle of nowhere?
Who is grasping at straws here?
It's murder and they're being prosecuted, they didn't even have any weapons and failed once the others united against them. The extrapolation from a few extremists to all muslims is just stupid. If I were to find all the murder cases of New York (328 in 2014!) and claim that "New Yorkers sure have a habit of murder" it would be just as stupid.

It's right there, 'extrapolation to all muslims'. Kads never did such a thing, it's unfair.

Gilrandir

04-20-2015, 14:37

You couldn't just quietly enjoy that, could you?

I have to live up to Sarmatian's description of me - remember - The Nitpicker.
If there is any need I will switch on the Weaseler-Out or CheapShooter mode.
For Sarmatian not to hear us (imagine I'm whispering): we can't discuss it here - it may derail the thread.

Husar

04-20-2015, 14:49

It's right there, 'extrapolation to all muslims'. Kads never did such a thing, it's unfair.

He did when he said "Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.". That's a generalization based on the acts of a few.

I have to live up to Sarmatian's description of me - remember - The Nitpicker.
If there is any need I will switch on the Weaseler-Out or CheapShooter mode.
For Sarmatian not to hear us (imagine I'm whispering): we can't discuss it here - it may derail the thread.

One could also claim that you derailed the thread when your pride couldn't just swallow his request and ignore it.

Gilrandir

04-20-2015, 15:22

One could also claim that you derailed the thread when your pride couldn't just swallow his request and ignore it.
I believe that in a discussion one has to defend one's stance (otherwise it is not a dicussion but imposing one's views and pushing others around) while no one can force anyone to swallow anything they like at their bidding.
But there is good news for you and Sarmatian: the thread survived!!!

Fragony

04-20-2015, 15:32

He did when he said "Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.". That's a generalization based on the acts of a few

It's also simply true, but it's still not saying that all muslims are like that, as you make it appear lime what is said

Husar

04-20-2015, 16:26

It's also simply true, but it's still not saying that all muslims are like that, as you make it appear lime what is said

"The dutch sure seem to have a habit of wearing wooden shoes." is also a correct statement then and "The Americans sure seem to have a habit of shooting innocent people.". How about "The Germany sure seem to have a habit of being nazis." or "The jews sure seem to have a habit of hoarding money and murdering Palestinians."? All correct and harmless statements? Kadagar sure seems to have a habit of making statements that are then misunderstood.

Kadagar_AV

04-20-2015, 16:59

Geez what confusion...

I meant exactly what I said, muslims have a terrorism problem that they among themselves do too little about... I don't know how it is in other countries, but at least here in Sweden the muslim extremists are respected and allowed in mosques, and younger muslims often view the extremists as "the cool clique"...

Maybe there is an absolute OUTRAGE in the muslim world when muslims terrorize others... Maybe?

I for one sure haven't seen it though.

In England a poll recently showed that IIRC 75% of English muslims want sharia laws... So it's not exactly a "small group" or "minority" of muslims who are lunatic, it's the vast majority of them, even amongst the ones dwelling in western countries.

Are all muslims terrorists? Of course not, never have I said or even thought it.

Does the muslim community have a terrorism problem at large, that they do too little about in and of themselves, yes, I absolutely think so.

Fragony

04-20-2015, 18:34

"The dutch sure seem to have a habit of wearing wooden shoes." is also a correct statement then and "The Americans sure seem to have a habit of shooting innocent people.". How about "The Germany sure seem to have a habit of being nazis." or "The jews sure seem to have a habit of hoarding money and murdering Palestinians."? All correct and harmless statements? Kadagar sure seems to have a habit of making statements that are then misunderstood.

Kads is just being realistic and calls a spade a spade. Islamapolgists just keep looking for relativation. The worst thing about that is that you probably know you are bullshitting yourself.

Kralizec

04-20-2015, 19:35

In England a poll recently showed that IIRC 75% of English muslims want sharia laws... So it's not exactly a "small group" or "minority" of muslims who are lunatic, it's the vast majority of them, even amongst the ones dwelling in western countries.

Source please? I'm not saying that you're lying, but poll results are often misunderstood. Frag once referred to a Dutch poll where 80% (more or less) of Dutch muslims supposedly said that they sympathise with IS. This was in fact a deliberate misquotation by Geert Wilders of an opinion poll taken just after the start of the uprising in Syria, before anybody even heard of IS(IS). The question of the poll actually was 'do you support the Syrian opposition'.

Fragony

04-20-2015, 20:08

Source please? I'm not saying that you're lying, but poll results are often misunderstood. Frag once referred to a Dutch poll where 80% (more or less) of Dutch muslims supposedly said that they sympathise with IS. This was in fact a deliberate misquotation by Geert Wilders of an opinion poll taken just after the start of the uprising in Syria, before anybody even heard of IS(IS). The question of the poll actually was 'do you support the Syrian opposition'.

I nuanced that myselve mind you, IS wasn't there at the time, only the fight agaist Assad, no foul play, if you look for the post you will see me saying the same thing.

Husar

04-20-2015, 20:25

We could look at Pew Research:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population.

Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.

It doesn't cover the UK however, the most recent polls I could find about the UK are shocking though:

40% - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
37% - http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion/print
30-40% - http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/04/07/support-sharia-law-world/

Not exactly 75% but 40% is close I guess. The last link has central Europe at 65% on average in the summary, a document I found from a german ministry earlier didn't see a huge potential for extremism among german muslims however. Which parts of Sharia people want or whether they all interprete it in the same way or whether they even want it to apply to non-muslims is however hard to convey with a single percentage number.

Sarmatian

04-20-2015, 21:36

Kads is just being realistic and calls a spade a spade. Islamapolgists just keep looking for relativation. The worst thing about that is that you probably know you are bullshitting yourself.

Problem is that both you and Kads are refusing to look at actual statistics. For example, when it comes to Intentional Murder rates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate), first 20 countries are all predominantly Christian.

It has much more to do with poverty and education than with religion.

Kadagar_AV

04-20-2015, 22:44

Problem is that both you and Kads are refusing to look at actual statistics. For example, when it comes to Intentional Murder rates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate), first 20 countries are all predominantly Christian.

It has much more to do with poverty and education than with religion.

Eh...

Have I ever... I mean like... Ever... Left out the ethnical or cultural perspective?

I would argue quite the contrary, that if it's one person on these boards who have shine some lights on these issues it would be me :inquisitive:

CrossLOPER

04-20-2015, 23:16

Have I ever... I mean like... Ever...
Most of your posts are overly dramatic and take an innocently defensive stance whenever you are not trying to be edgy, so it is hard to really pick out what is what.

Kadagar_AV

04-20-2015, 23:30

Most of your posts are overly dramatic and take an innocently defensive stance whenever you are not trying to be edgy, so it is hard to really pick out what is what.

Just... Take the words at face value?

It sounds like an easy thing to do, but I have noticed that people are vehemently against it, as most are coded by media to react to cues instead of thinking themselves.

My words mean exactly what I mean to tell... If YOU start to read things into it, it's your problem (and I will deem you an idiot because of it), not mine.

Husar

04-21-2015, 14:16

Just... Take the words at face value?
[...]
My words mean exactly what I mean to tell... If YOU start to read things into it, it's your problem (and I will deem you an idiot because of it), not mine.

That's exactly the problem, so then I read this:

Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.

And you say they have a habit of, which means: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/habit

customary practice or use
[...]
a dominant or regular disposition or tendency; prevailing character or quality

and I say it's rubbish because it is not a prevailing characteristic of muslims to use terrorism.
And then we get this:

I meant exactly what I said, muslims have a terrorism problem [...]

Which is a statement I would rather agree with (not counting the part I left out) but not exactly the same as having a habit no matter how long you claim to be consistent or accurate in what you say.

Fragony

04-21-2015, 14:50

Most of your posts are overly dramatic and take an innocently defensive stance whenever you are not trying to be edgy, so it is hard to really pick out what is what.

Really easy, it's called being realistic.

CrossLOPER

04-21-2015, 15:49

Really easy, it's called being realistic.
This is a subjective statement.

Kadagar_AV

04-21-2015, 16:42

They have a habit of...

They have a problem with...

Was that the origin of your confusion Husar?

Regardless, I hope I explained my perspective perfectly clear now at least :)

Fragony

04-21-2015, 17:44

This is a subjective statement.

Not liking you personally is realistic as well.

Seamus Fermanagh

04-21-2015, 18:07

Well, these are overloaded boats in the most part, and most folks don't handle such things like Guggenheim.

Typically, the persons most like you are the ones you protect, those least like you the first to be tossed. That's been true of most cultures throughout history -- terrorism doesn't enter into it particularly.

The real answer is for the EU to send an occupying force to Libya in order to establish security while a stable, institutionalized democracy takes control of the country.

Brenus

04-21-2015, 18:10

"The real answer is for the EU to send an occupying force to Libya in order to establish security while a stable, institutionalized democracy takes control of the country." We tried it before, didn't work. It is call colonialism.
US didn't believed Europe and tried it as well. Didn't work.

Solution: Developp the countries, stop free trade and free pillaging. We won't do it, Monsantos, Shell, ESSO and others big companies need markets and cheap labor.

Sarmatian

04-21-2015, 18:18

It sounds like an easy thing to do, but I have noticed that people are vehemently against it, as most are coded by media to react to cues instead of thinking themselves.

At face value, this means: Anyone who disagrees with me is an indoctrinated drone.

CrossLOPER

04-21-2015, 19:46

Not liking you personally is realistic as well.

No need to get emotional.

You views are subjective. A more appropriate term would be myopic. You constantly complain about how Islam is an evil problem and cite countless anecdotes and second hand narratives. You take in events and fit them to support your views. You seem to be incapable of really dissecting issues and rely on generalizations and circumstances and posit them as undisputed fact.

Most of the arguments you've had over the years boil down to meme-like constructs where racists try to "prove" the inferiority of blacks by posting pictures of mudhuts somewhere in the middle of African tribeland and then post a marvelous European baroque structure from its period, completely ignoring the horrid squalor most citizens lived in during that time period.

Point is, its seems to me that you aren't seeing the big picture.

Fragony

04-21-2015, 20:26

What is the same thing everywhere just is the same thing everywhere.

CrossLOPER

04-21-2015, 20:54

What is the same thing everywhere just is the same thing everywhere.

Bananas are the clock spring badger of fire extinguisher.

Kadagar_AV

04-21-2015, 21:28

At face value, this means: Anyone who disagrees with me is an indoctrinated drone.

At face value it meant - disagree all you want, but please source if so.

I am against Islam... You have a problem with that?

Then by all means, tell me why.

Heck, I can fire the first shot... Muhammed was a ****ing pedophile. Shall we take it from there, or do you have some other entry you want to bring forward?

PS: Frags, please stop "defending" me... I have enough people misreading me as is... I really don't want your obscure way with facts to be a further hindrance...

Kralizec

04-21-2015, 22:05

I nuanced that myselve mind you, IS wasn't there at the time, only the fight agaist Assad, no foul play, if you look for the post you will see me saying the same thing.

No need, I believe you. I stand corrected.

However, Geert Wilders literally said that 80% (more or less) sympathises with IS and referred to the poll. I remember this clearly, because the organisation that took the poll objected afterwards. He very rarely retracts his words, and AFAIK he didn't do so in this case.

It's debatable wether or not Geert did this deliberately. It's possible that he didn't read the poll correctly and then proceeded to make this bold statement, but since he's a politician with considerable weight I think that this would be almost as bad.

CrossLOPER

04-22-2015, 00:11

Heck, I can fire the first shot... Muhammed was a ****ing pedophile. Shall we take it from there, or do you have some other entry you want to bring forward?
Consummation at a young age was common at the time in many places, including Europe.

Kadagar_AV

04-22-2015, 03:46

Consummation at a young age was common at the time in many places, including Europe.

Sure... I 100% agree, from the sources I have read.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow though, do you mind to elaborate on why the **** we should listen to some pedophile from the Iron Age?

That it was common practise to be a pedo in his desert living iron age tribe is totally OK by me. But why the **** should we in the west in the year 2015 respect a damn iron age pedophile?

Fragony

04-22-2015, 05:20

No need, I believe you. I stand corrected.

However, Geert Wilders literally said that 80% (more or less) sympathises with IS and referred to the poll. I remember this clearly, because the organisation that took the poll objected afterwards. He very rarely retracts his words, and AFAIK he didn't do so in this case.

It's debatable wether or not Geert did this deliberately. It's possible that he didn't read the poll correctly and then proceeded to make this bold statement, but since he's a politician with considerable weight I think that this would be almost as bad.

Wouldn't surprise me if it was intentional, but it's simply not true, if it was intentional it's cheap. IS does has a bit of a cult-status among some muslim youths though, like motorgangs and gangster-rappers have here. I wouldn't trust the numbers if simply was asked what they think of IS.

CrossLOPER

04-22-2015, 05:38

Sure... I 100% agree, from the sources I have read.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow though, do you mind to elaborate on why the **** we should listen to some pedophile from the Iron Age?

That it was common practise to be a pedo in his desert living iron age tribe is totally OK by me. But why the **** should we in the west in the year 2015 respect a damn iron age pedophile?
You don't like religion. OK. Don't follow the religion.

There are other aspects of religion that people choose to follow such as moral codes pertaining to modesty and living righteously, and finding unity with others like yourself. I would think it has more to do with that.

Brenus

04-22-2015, 06:57

"There are other aspects of religion that people choose to follow such as moral codes pertaining to modesty and living righteously, and finding unity with others like yourself. I would think it has more to do with that." Yeah, but this is true for all totalitarian ideologies.

Sarmatian

04-22-2015, 07:01

Sure... I 100% agree, from the sources I have read.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow though, do you mind to elaborate on why the **** we should listen to some pedophile from the Iron Age?

That it was common practise to be a pedo in his desert living iron age tribe is totally OK by me. But why the **** should we in the west in the year 2015 respect a damn iron age pedophile?

If we reverse the situation, someone might ask why should we respect a weird guy who more than 2000 years ago told us to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Something that was created such a long time ago is bound to have weird aspects to us now. Being an atheist, I don't personally care for any of that, but it mustn't be used as proof that religions are inherently bad. I find religious nutjobs very disturbing, but I can respect people who find that religion offers some spiritual help, and are trying to make themselves a better person by following it.

Fragony

04-22-2015, 07:46

PS: Frags, please stop "defending" me...

oki

any examples? just asking, I dare you to find them Rainman

Gilrandir

04-22-2015, 09:50

If we reverse the situation, someone might ask why should we respect a weird guy who more than 2000 years ago told us to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Not only that:

The Gospel According to
St Matthew
Chapter 21

1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.
3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

In modern terms one can call it gang robbery.

Fragony

04-22-2015, 10:00

No need to get emotional.

You views are subjective. A more appropriate term would be myopic. You constantly complain about how Islam is an evil problem and cite countless anecdotes and second hand narratives. You take in events and fit them to support your views. You seem to be incapable of really dissecting issues and rely on generalizations and circumstances and posit them as undisputed fact.

Most of the arguments you've had over the years boil down to meme-like constructs where racists try to "prove" the inferiority of blacks by posting pictures of mudhuts somewhere in the middle of African tribeland and then post a marvelous European baroque structure from its period, completely ignoring the horrid squalor most citizens lived in during that time period.

Point is, its seems to me that you aren't seeing the big picture.

Show me where I and when I did that, because your mind seems to be playing tricks on you. It isn't there. You might think you have seen it, but you can't have. It's not real. If I did that I would get an instant ban. Which I don't have.

Husar

04-22-2015, 13:43

In modern terms one can call it gang robbery.

That's more a prediction, he knows how the man will react before it happens, further evidence that free choice is a myth.

Montmorency

04-22-2015, 14:23

That's more a prediction, he knows how the man will react before it happens, further evidence that free choice is a myth.

Well, you know, the Calvinist types used this sort of Biblical evidence to reason that all human action was an explicit part of God's plan.

From Letter 2 of Voltaire's Letters to an Englishman:

“When thou movest one of thy limbs, is it moved by thy own power? Certainly not; for this limb is often sensible to involuntary motions. Consequently He who created thy body gives motion to this earthly tabernacle. And are the several ideas of which thy soul receives the impression formed by thyself? Much less are they, since these pour in upon thy mind whether thou wilt or no; consequently thou receivest thy ideas from Him who created thy soul.

Though you can see some of the incoherence and ambivalence, it's a remarkable sentiment for the Early Modern era.

Montmorency

04-22-2015, 14:29

I mean, compare that second sentence to Nietzsche:

The people on their part may think that cognition is knowing all about things, but the philosopher must say to himself: "When I analyze the process that is expressed in the sentence, 'I think,' I find a whole series of daring assertions, the argumentative proof of which would be difficult, perhaps impossible: for instance, that it is I who think, that there must necessarily be something that thinks, that thinking is an activity and operation on the part of a being who is thought of as a cause, that there is an 'ego,' and finally, that it is already determined what is to be designated by thinking—that I KNOW what thinking is. For if I had not already decided within myself what it is, by what standard could I determine whether that which is just happening is not perhaps 'willing' or 'feeling'? In short, the assertion 'I think,' assumes that I COMPARE my state at the present moment with other states of myself which I know, in order to determine what it is; on account of this retrospective connection with further 'knowledge,' it has, at any rate, no immediate certainty for me."—In place of the "immediate certainty" in which the people may believe in the special case, the philosopher thus finds a series of metaphysical questions presented to him, veritable conscience questions of the intellect, to wit: "Whence did I get the notion of 'thinking'? Why do I believe in cause and effect? What gives me the right to speak of an 'ego,' and even of an 'ego' as cause, and finally of an 'ego' as cause of thought?" He who ventures to answer these metaphysical questions at once by an appeal to a sort of INTUITIVE perception, like the person who says, "I think, and know that this, at least, is true, actual, and certain"—will encounter a smile and two notes of interrogation in a philosopher nowadays. "Sir," the philosopher will perhaps give him to understand, "it is improbable that you are not mistaken, but why should it be the truth?"

17. With regard to the superstitions of logicians, I shall never tire of emphasizing a small, terse fact, which is unwillingly recognized by these credulous minds—namely, that a thought comes when "it" wishes, and not when "I" wish

Husar

04-22-2015, 16:09

Well, you know, the Calvinist types used this sort of Biblical evidence to reason that all human action was an explicit part of God's plan.

From Letter 2 of Voltaire's Letters to an Englishman:

Though you can see some of the incoherence and ambivalence, it's a remarkable sentiment for the Early Modern era.

Remarkable because the BBT ultimately says the same thing?

I also have the ability to find e.g. names in my brain even if they won't come right away. It is a process where the conscious checks for incoming names and sends them back into the void with corrections until the right name pops out of the void. ~;)

Gilrandir

04-22-2015, 16:33

That's more a prediction, he knows how the man will react before it happens, further evidence that free choice is a myth.
Anyone will react similarly if his chattels are taken. So you don't have to be a prophet to predict such a reaction. Yet what I meant was that the property of a stranger is alienated against his will and the reasons for it might as well be called red herring/apple sauce. It is a crime, whether 2000 years ago or now.

CrossLOPER

04-22-2015, 17:58

Show me where I and when I did that, because your mind seems to be playing tricks on you. It isn't there. You might think you have seen it, but you can't have. It's not real. If I did that I would get an instant ban. Which I don't have.

Really, you know what you are doing. You aren't really the only one doing it anymore since there are others like KAV and at least two others make alarmist posts whenever an attack involving Muslim extremists occurs. None of you seem to like each other, however, so I can't claim collaboration. In fact, it sometimes seems like you are having a competition regarding who is "red-pilled", much like the little episode that took place about half a dozen posts up.

I'm still not fully sure whether you have a greater problem with immigration or integration or just Islam, but it seems to fall into the latter most of all. It suggests that you are claiming a conspiracy by Islam as a whole to destroy the West, much like fundies in the West believe that gays spend all day trying to make straight couples miserable.

Kadagar_AV

04-22-2015, 18:15

Really, you know what you are doing. You aren't really the only one doing it anymore since there are others like KAV and at least two others make alarmist posts whenever an attack involving Muslim extremists occurs. None of you seem to like each other, however, so I can't claim collaboration. In fact, it sometimes seems like you are having a competition regarding who is "red-pilled", much like the little episode that took place about half a dozen posts up.

I'm still not fully sure whether you have a greater problem with immigration or integration or just Islam, but it seems to fall into the latter most of all. It suggests that you are claiming a conspiracy by Islam as a whole to destroy the West, much like fundies in the West believe that gays spend all day trying to make straight couples miserable.

I actually do like Frags, heck I like most members on this board...

You don't have to go to "conspiracy theory" mode to be against islam.

I know how Sweden was before we had a lot of Muslims, and I know how Sweden has changed now when we have a lot of muslims. And honestly, I do not like it.

That has nothing to do with racism, conspiracies, or anything like that. I just openly state that I dislike Islam, and I do not want Islam around me. Surely that must be a perspective allowed to be had?

Sarmatian

04-22-2015, 18:53

I actually do like Frags, heck I like most members on this board...

You don't have to go to "conspiracy theory" mode to be against islam.

I know how Sweden was before we had a lot of Muslims, and I know how Sweden has changed now when we have a lot of muslims. And honestly, I do not like it.

That has nothing to do with racism, conspiracies, or anything like that. I just openly state that I dislike Islam, and I do not want Islam around me. Surely that must be a perspective allowed to be had?

Of course it is, but I'm thinking you're equating things that shouldn't be equated. If there's a robbery, one might say "I don't want robbers around me". It would be wrong to say "I don't want blacks around", even if they assume (or even know for sure) that the robber is black.

Part of the problem is also that "they're different from us/they're worse than us" attitude, which discourages people to fit in the society and are instead encouraged to seek solace within their own social circle in which they are accepted.

I've traveled around, and visited a lot of western countries during the 90's, and I personally felt the bigotry, antagonism and sometimes even open hostility. And I'm a white, male Christian. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to understand how it must be for someone who doesn't have to speak before he is recognized.

Husar

04-22-2015, 22:34

Anyone will react similarly if his chattels are taken. So you don't have to be a prophet to predict such a reaction. Yet what I meant was that the property of a stranger is alienated against his will and the reasons for it might as well be called red herring/apple sauce. It is a crime, whether 2000 years ago or now.

Doesn't the last part mean that the man will let them have the ass if they tell him that the lord needs it?
Is that a typical reaction? And how is that against his will if he is willing to part with it for the lord?

CrossLOPER

04-23-2015, 01:26

I know how Sweden has changed now when we have a lot of muslims. And honestly, I do not like it.

That has nothing to do with racism, conspiracies, or anything like that. I just openly state that I dislike Islam, and I do not want Islam around me. Surely that must be a perspective allowed to be had?
You're saying that you don't understand why you should tolerate Muslims who have screwed up your neighborhood. What you should be asking is why your country, and so many others, are so massively incompetent when it comes dealing with immigration integration. You should be asking yourself why more isn't done to improve the places where these people live so that they would not feel such a strong need to immigrate. You should be asking why so many of these people turn to extremism when supposedly given so much opportunity to live splendidly.

I think the "Islam is a Swedish tradition" hugbox liberal muffin-head mentality is idiotic. I'm not simple enough to attribute all the problems to moon worshiping or shekel counting or whatever.

Fragony

04-23-2015, 12:13

You're saying that you don't understand why you should tolerate Muslims who have screwed up your neighborhood. What you should be asking is why your country, and so many others, are so massively incompetent when it comes dealing with immigration integration.

As a wellknown Dutch/Turkish collumnist rightfully putted it, 'a refugee leaves it's troubles behind, a colonist brings it with him'.

Sorry Kads you politily asked me not to defend you, but I am going to do it anyway, apoligies for that. Slap me later.

Sweden HAS changed Crossloper, and not for the better. You just can't expect Sweden to just deal with such an influx, it's just unreasonable to ask that from them. People who support that should try oxazipam first, or heroin, also makes you feel good, difference is that you are only destroying yourself.

Kadagar_AV

04-23-2015, 13:05

You're saying that you don't understand why you should tolerate Muslims who have screwed up your neighborhood.

Well... The question is a little bit more complex than that. My main concern is actually that we have broken the wellfare state we used to have, as people these days just simply Do. Not. Trust. Their. Fellow. Swedes like they used to, when we were ethnically more homogenic...

A wellfare state works kind of like a shield wall... You need to trust the guy to the left and right of you to do his job, or the whole shield wall collapse. That is what I have seen happen to Sweden as we choose to become a multi-cultural nation who no longer even try to assimilate the (mainly muslim) immigrants.

What you should be asking is why your country, and so many others, are so massively incompetent when it comes dealing with immigration integration.

Why?

Seriously, why is that the question I should have to ask? I find the answer quite simple, integration is hard because different cultures work, think and act differently. You think I stopped using Snus (Swedish tobacco you put under your lip) just because I moved to Austria?

I prefer to just think that different people from different nations are different in different ways. Easy, no?

I also choose to think that some cultures are different from mine in a way that is grave enough for me to absolutely NOT want them around me, heck, I don't even want them in the same nation as me.

You should be asking yourself why more isn't done to improve the places where these people live so that they would not feel such a strong need to immigrate.

How is that my responsibility? Or Swedens?

We have tried, and will keep trying, different methods to help poor nations. Most efforts have turned out to be completely ****ed up though... Heck, not even aid to Africa is an easy question, as it handled wrong easily can kill the local producers economically, and in the end worsen the situation... We had a quite interesting talk about that on these boards some years ago.

But regardless, I say again... It. Is. Not. Swedens. Resposibility. How. Other. Nations. Do.

Mmmmmkay?

You should be asking why so many of these people turn to extremism when supposedly given so much opportunity to live splendidly.

Eh, why can't we just kick them out instead? Or rather not let them in, in the very first place?

It is a big world with a LOT of history... I do not think Sweden can "change" this anyday soon... All we can do is be a good example, and try to help when and where we can. What we have DONE, however, is to absolutely murder our own culture, and Sweden will very soon not be a positive example anymore (it isn't even today), Sweden will be a multicultural ****state with racial riots and low public safety, restricted wellfare, economicly drained... Yadda yadda...

I just tell it as I see it. I know how Sweden used to be, and I know how it is now. I don't like the way it changed, I don't like having muslims around me, or having to work with them, or having to stand behind them in the line at the food store, or whatever...

Why? Because i don't trust them to act like a Swede would, again, SHIELD WALL mate, we need the trust.

I think the "Islam is a Swedish tradition" hugbox liberal muffin-head mentality is idiotic. I'm not simple enough to attribute all the problems to moon worshiping or shekel counting or whatever.

I'm not quite sure I get your point here...

But regardless, your MAIN point seem to be that there is some "white mans inherited guilt" and that we somehow should have some obligation to help ****ed up countries by accepting wave after wave of immigrants from them?

Know what, if Swedens population would have FLED everytime there was a problem, we would never have gotten what could have been the best functional state in the world (in the 60's-80's).

I was borne 1980, and again, the Sweden I grew up in is not the Sweden we now have. And it's not for the better, and yes, immigration is much to blame for it.

Gilrandir

04-23-2015, 14:02

Part of the problem is also that "they're different from us/they're worse than us" attitude, which discourages people to fit in the society and are instead encouraged to seek solace within their own social circle in which they are accepted.

Don't you think that the new-comers do something to earn this attitude? I would say that they do something (which was probably quite OK back in their home country), then they get the attitude and then they are ostracized (or shunned) by the natives.

Doesn't the last part mean that the man will let them have the ass if they tell him that the lord needs it?
Is that a typical reaction? And how is that against his will if he is willing to part with it for the lord?
The scripture doesn't say if the animal was taken by force or freely surrendered, yet if it was the former it was definitely what I said it was. But if the book is so ostensibly meant to champion the commandments it should have specified the case for such ideas as mine not to pop up.

I was borne 1980, and again, the Sweden I grew up in is not the Sweden we now have.
This is because Karlsson is not there any more. Instead of immigartion you should encourage more people to take their abode on the roof.

Husar

04-23-2015, 14:09

The scripture doesn't say if the animal was taken by force or freely surrendered, yet if it was the former it was definitely what I said it was. But if the book is so ostensibly meant to champion the commandments it should have specified the case for such ideas as mine not to pop up.

Well, it seems pretty clear what is meant if you take the context of how Jesus behaves and what he preaches. If you only read that one part there may be misunderstandings but that can happen to you with any book that has a few hundred pages when you only read a few lines of it.

Gilrandir

04-23-2015, 14:26

Well, it seems pretty clear what is meant if you take the context of how Jesus behaves and what he preaches. If you only read that one part there may be misunderstandings but that can happen to you with any book that has a few hundred pages when you only read a few lines of it.

His behavior does not always match what he preaches, like his attitude to his mother, whom he seems to be ashamed of and disregards her entreaties. Where is the "respect thy parents" stuff? Having this in view, his ass-confiscating trick doesn't seem so immaculate.

Montmorency

04-23-2015, 14:28

On the other hand, you could say, "God provides - for himself".

CrossLOPER

04-23-2015, 16:46

Well... The question is a little bit more complex than that. My main concern is actually that we have broken the wellfare state we used to have, as people these days just simply Do. Not. Trust. Their. Fellow. Swedes like they used to, when we were ethnically more homogenic...

A wellfare state works kind of like a shield wall... You need to trust the guy to the left and right of you to do his job, or the whole shield wall collapse. That is what I have seen happen to Sweden as we choose to become a multi-cultural nation who no longer even try to assimilate the (mainly muslim) immigrants.

Not the fault of Islam.

Why?

Seriously, why is that the question I should have to ask? I find the answer quite simple, integration is hard because different cultures work, think and act differently. You think I stopped using Snus (Swedish tobacco you put under your lip) just because I moved to Austria?

I prefer to just think that different people from different nations are different in different ways. Easy, no?

I also choose to think that some cultures are different from mine in a way that is grave enough for me to absolutely NOT want them around me, heck, I don't even want them in the same nation as me.

You are assuming that they are all receiving the same opportunities that would allow anyone to succeed. They are not.

http://rt.com/news/stockholm-violence-outbreak-fires-671/
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2013/05/swedens-riots
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/6/sweden-refugees-racismstockholm.html
http://www.euro-islam.info/country-profiles/sweden/

How is that my responsibility? Or Swedens?

We have tried, and will keep trying, different methods to help poor nations. Most efforts have turned out to be completely ****ed up though... Heck, not even aid to Africa is an easy question, as it handled wrong easily can kill the local producers economically, and in the end worsen the situation... We had a quite interesting talk about that on these boards some years ago.

But regardless, I say again... It. Is. Not. Swedens. Resposibility. How. Other. Nations. Do.

Mmmmmkay?

It is the responsibility of successful nations to encourage developing nations to develop further.

Eh, why can't we just kick them out instead? Or rather not let them in, in the very first place?

It is a big world with a LOT of history... I do not think Sweden can "change" this anyday soon... All we can do is be a good example, and try to help when and where we can. What we have DONE, however, is to absolutely murder our own culture, and Sweden will very soon not be a positive example anymore (it isn't even today), Sweden will be a multicultural ****state with racial riots and low public safety, restricted wellfare, economicly drained... Yadda yadda...

I just tell it as I see it. I know how Sweden used to be, and I know how it is now. I don't like the way it changed, I don't like having muslims around me, or having to work with them, or having to stand behind them in the line at the food store, or whatever...

Why? Because i don't trust them to act like a Swede would, again, SHIELD WALL mate, we need the trust.

What would the criteria for kicking them out?

I'm not quite sure I get your point here...

But regardless, your MAIN point seem to be that there is some "white mans inherited guilt" and that we somehow should have some obligation to help ****ed up countries by accepting wave after wave of immigrants from them?

Know what, if Swedens population would have FLED everytime there was a problem, we would never have gotten what could have been the best functional state in the world (in the 60's-80's).

I was borne 1980, and again, the Sweden I grew up in is not the Sweden we now have. And it's not for the better, and yes, immigration is much to blame for it.

First off, I think "white guilt" is a retarded concept. Second, no, you don't have to become a refugee nexus. Third, you seem to have been suffering from problems for a while now, none of it relating to Muslims:

http://www.ekonomifakta.se/en/Swedish-economic-history/Structural-Problems-and-Reforms/

My point is that you are shifting blame on an easy target and ignoring a host of other issues. The integration issues are a symptom of steady decline that has continued for half a century.

Husar

04-23-2015, 18:06

His behavior does not always match what he preaches, like his attitude to his mother, whom he seems to be ashamed of and disregards her entreaties. Where is the "respect thy parents" stuff? Having this in view, his ass-confiscating trick doesn't seem so immaculate.

You have a serious lack of understanding and I'm afraid I do not have the patience now to teach you everything about the bible.
If you want to know more about this, here is a link: http://shamelesspopery.com/did-jesus-rebuke-his-mother-in-luke-819-21/

It's a catholic one but they seem to know how to explain this.

You can even read up on the ass story if you want to: http://www.tektonics.org/af/donkeythief.php
I like the last paragraph in that one. :laugh4:

On the other hand, you could say, "God provides - for himself".

I shall also refer you to the last paragraph of my last link, as well as the idea that providing the ass would surely be rewarded in heaven.
Which would be pointless/unfair without free will and therefore make the interpretation that Jesus knew the owner would hand over the ass voluntarily problematic.

Seamus Fermanagh

04-23-2015, 18:11

Not only that:

In modern terms one can call it gang robbery.

Well, he was publicly executed less than a week after ordering this "crime." Was not the fault of the local authorities that the execution didn't take.

Montmorency

04-23-2015, 19:31

We may add, finally, that since God owns everything, how can the Son of God taking anything be stealing?

Holy shit, so since all human souls belong to God, can Jesus just kill anybody at will?*

We need a buddy comedy, something like: Christ and Beelzebub: Reapers at Law .

Yes I know about the apocrypha

Husar

04-23-2015, 19:55

Holy shit, so since all human souls belong to God, can Jesus just kill anybody at will?*

Since god is also love he would never want to do that for fun, only as a punishment if the person deserves it. Or as part of his plan.
Christians should even like the idea since they'd get to heaven and heaven is obviously better than our earthly lives.

CrossLOPER

04-23-2015, 21:17

Since god is also love he would never want to do that for fun, only as a punishment if the person deserves it. Or as part of his plan.
Christians should even like the idea since they'd get to heaven and heaven is obviously better than our earthly lives.
Sounds like dangerous thinking.

Kadagar_AV

04-23-2015, 22:16

Sounds like dangerous thinking.

Nah... Sounds like Husar has post-nazi trauma and want to equal Christianity to Islam...

Even though Christianity in his region has gone through things such as, oh I don't know... The reformation, the enlightenment, the french revolution... Just to name a few.

I will answer other posters when I get the time, hopefully tomorrow... But this post seriously was so stupid I had do jump in.

CrossLOPER

04-23-2015, 23:12

Christianity... enlightenment
I thought Montmorency was overly harsh when he said that you had the mind and intellect of a particularly dumb eleven year old, and I try to stay away from direct insults since philosophy major wannabes will start reading from a list of debate fallacies. However, when you start making arguments like this...

Husar

04-24-2015, 00:45

Sounds like dangerous thinking.

Well, suicide is usually regarded as a sin, god decides when your time has come, it is not okay to speed up the process since he may need you on earth, e.g. to bring lost souls back to him etc.

But this post seriously was so stupid I had do jump in.

Come on, CrossLOPER asked a valid question...

Kadagar_AV

04-24-2015, 00:52

I thought Montmorency was overly harsh when he said that you had the mind and intellect of a particularly dumb eleven year old, and I try to stay away from direct insults since philosophy major wannabes will start reading from a list of debate fallacies. However, when you start making arguments like this...

Eh... Do you even have the education to grasp what "The Enlightenment" means in English?

If not, Google search "the enlightenment", will you? Bah.

Husar, If there was a valid question among his ill thought out posts I have yet to see it... If you want to repeat it and make it your own you are more than welcome though :)

Husar

04-24-2015, 02:37

Husar, If there was a valid question among his ill thought out posts I have yet to see it... If you want to repeat it and make it your own you are more than welcome though :)

Why would I want to? I already answered it... :inquisitive:

CrossLOPER

04-24-2015, 04:53

Eh... Do you even have the education to grasp what "The Enlightenment" means in English?

If not, Google search "the enlightenment", will you? Bah.

Take your own advice.

You stated that Christianity had gone through some sort of transformational/transitional phase, naming the enlightenment among them. This was a movement which, among other things, undermined Christianity and had several prominent figures denounce and reject it entirely in favor of deism (In extreme cases, Atheism).

If your original statement was pro-Christianity, it was somewhat misguided in that respect.

Come on, CrossLOPER asked a valid question...
I was being flippant.

Husar

04-24-2015, 09:35

I was being flippant.

Well, he quoted your post then talked a lot of rubbish about my posts and then said "this post was seriously so stupid", we may never find out whose/which post was meant so I just blamed it on you. Seems to have worked though. :mellow:

Kadagar_AV

04-24-2015, 12:59

Take your own advice.

You stated that Christianity had gone through some sort of transformational/transitional phase, naming the enlightenment among them. This was a movement which, among other things, undermined Christianity and had several prominent figures denounce and reject it entirely in favor of deism (In extreme cases, Atheism).

If your original statement was pro-Christianity, it was somewhat misguided in that respect.

My original statement wasn't pro-christianity, and that is why you make no sense.

CrossLOPER

04-24-2015, 17:53

My original statement wasn't pro-christianity, and that is why you make no sense.
Hey, remember that time when you stated that we should take your statements at face-value? Good times, right?

Nah... Sounds like Husar has post-nazi trauma and want to equal Christianity to Islam...

Even though Christianity in his region has gone through things such as, oh I don't know... The reformation, the enlightenment, the french revolution... Just to name a few.
It seems like you are speaking highly of Christianity in comparison to Islam. Perhaps you would like to clear things up?

Kadagar_AV

04-24-2015, 18:58

Hey, remember that time when you stated that we should take your statements at face-value? Good times, right?

It seems like you are speaking highly of Christianity in comparison to Islam. Perhaps you would like to clear things up?

Of course... I wouldn't be a teacher if I didn't like to clear things up for the dim witted.

Yes, I do in fact speak highly of Christianity COMPARED TO ISLAM, because of the reasons I have already given... Christianity has, again, gone through The Reformation, The Enlightenment, the French Revolution... Just to name a few.

Islam has none or little of that.

With that said do I in absolutely NO way support christianity, as I am intelligent and can draw facts from sources.

But still, christianity is better than Islam... Based on numbers and statistics.

Montmorency

04-24-2015, 19:17

Of course... I wouldn't be a teacher if I didn't like to clear things up for the dim witted.

Disgusting. This is probably one of the worst attitudes I've ever seen regarding teaching short of actually getting the job just so as to more easily prey upon children.

CrossLOPER

04-24-2015, 19:55

Of course... I wouldn't be a teacher if I didn't like to clear things up for the dim witted.
Teaching is a learning process in itself, I guess. Speaking clearly and being able to communicate your thoughts effectively without brooding or being overcome with your own self-importance is an critical skill that one generally needs to develop.

Yes, I do in fact speak highly of Christianity COMPARED TO ISLAM, because of the reasons I have already given... Christianity has, again, gone through The Reformation, The Enlightenment, the French Revolution... Just to name a few.
Thereby showing that you carried absolutely nothing away from learning about any of that.

Islam has none or little of that.
Religions change with people and their environment. This is something that you keep ignoring, and it worries me that your interpretations are so 2-dimensional.

With that said do I in absolutely NO way support christianity, as I am intelligent and can draw facts from sources.
You're edgy as shit, and say whatever you feel like so long as it makes your views seem somehow more viable.

But still, christianity is better than Islam... Based on numbers and statistics.
Numbers and statistics that you will never, ever provide because you know they will be shot to tatters.

You still have not addressed my original assertions, but seeing as how you can gracefully you brush everything away with "you're just dim-witted", I guess I will never stop waiting.

Kadagar_AV

04-24-2015, 20:17

Disgusting. This is probably one of the worst attitudes I've ever seen regarding teaching short of actually getting the job just so as to more easily prey upon children.

Care to elaborate?

YES, students in their preteens can be quite dim witted. Do you seriously think an 11 year old will solve cancer anytime soon? The joy of teaching is to help separate what is true, from what is untrue. And to help DIM WITTED children from bad homes to excel...

That is why I teach math... Because 1+1=2 (unless it is a haystack + a haystack, then you just have one (bigger) haystack, aight... And that is also why the students need to state it).

If you feel ill at ease still, let me just say that my last class scored the best... Like, THE best... Both when it came to maths and how they liked their time in school...

EDIT: I honestly think one of the reasons why I got so good results on all levels was that I had my class when we did geometry out in the snow, in teams, making stuff intead of handing them a textbook and telling them to read.

EDIT2: There is just such a difference between actually building a 1x1x1dm and building a 1x1x1m out in the snow. Sorry, I know I am out of line here... But this is something I burn for... You can accuse me of many things, but never for being a bad teacher or ski instructor... As I always have had more or less spectacular results.