Interesting battle

[muffinman14]

The Ghulams owned the royal knights and killing off all of em and only losing 9

[Satyr]

Yes but, what were the valor/morale/command of the two companies?

[FesterShinetop]

And did the Ghulams have any other tactical advantages?

[Kraxis]

Was it High Ghulams and Early Royals?

In fact the Roylas should have won in case it was all equal, their stats are superior.

[Nelson]

My royal knights have always mopped the floor with ghulams. In the right circumstances, of course, any unit can get the drop on our own guys and thump them big time.

[muffinman14]

Their valour was both 4 and both high era knights. I made sure that the level was flat and no hills. The ghulams and the knights charged at the same time and right from the beginning the royal kinghts lost 2 men.

[Dijeeh]

My suspicions confirmed.

I have too much trouble taking a province defended by those Ghulam Body Guards because i lose so much of my best troops trying to remove them.

[MonkeyMan]

What terrain were you in, and what fatigue level was each at when they started fighting?

[Leet Eriksson]

ah say,the ghulams are good against royal knights when they flank them.but sipahi and boyars kick their asses to a bloody pulp.

[SlipJ]

2muffinman14: all you've said is not yet enough. what was the moral conditions? if the ghulams, had "no way to retreat", it could be decisive...

[muffinman14]

no this was a custom battle k and it was in a tmeperate or lush terrain with no hills

[LadyAnn]

Doesn't sound right if we look exclusively at the Stat:
RoyalKnight compare with Ghulam Bodyguard (both High Era):

cost $175 more, but has 5/3 melee, 7/5 armour, 8/6 morale.

Both of them has charge bonus of 8 meaning if you let one charge the other, the guy being charged will lose a big chunk right from the start.

Well, just reasonning from theory. Perhaps more tests are needed?

Annie

[Ktonos]

aren't Ghulam Bodygards a 40 man unit? Both of those are POK for Kataphractous.

[Kraxis]

Both are 20 man units.

These are their stats (charge/melee/defence/Armour/Morale):

High Ghulam Bodyguards: 8/3/5/5/6
High Royal Knights: 8/5/5/7/8

That is quite an advantage in favour of the Royals, 2 melee, 2 Armour and 2 Morale. Granted the Ghulams get the full benefit of their shields giving them an advantage of 1 in defence, making them better at taking a charge.
But in reality the Ghulams should suffer more from the charge than the Royals:
Charge = Chargebonus + melee. So the Royals have a charge of 8 + 5 = 13, while the Ghulams have only got 8 + 3 = 11, so the 1 better defence does not make up for the 2 worse melee and charge.

You say it was a Custom Battle, how hard was the AI? Medium? Then the player gets a small advantage while Hard gives the AI a small advantage. So in any case you should play as both sides at least 5 times to make sure you have viable result.

[MizuKokami]

the ai also handles some things different, after the initial charge, they might have changed to hold formation and opted for a defensive fight. hold formation also keeps them from tireing out as much, so they can slug it out a bit longer. or they might have swithed to wedge, giveing them an addition to their attack. check for those things also.

[Puzz3D]

The are also double attacks for the unit with more men. This would tend to offset the 20% combat advantage the Royals enjoy which isn't really a big advantage. Using the stats that Kraxis posted a Royal has a 15.8% chance of killing a Ghulham, and a Ghulam a 13.1% chance of killing a Royal. Also, the unit sizes are small, so there is less time (fewer combat cycles thus more uncertainty in the final result) for the Royals to make up for the unlucky 2 man loss (10% of the unit) in the charge. The Royals only have a net 10% combat advantage at this point, and they have to fend off double attacks as long as they have fewer men than the Ghulams. The 2 point lower morale of the Ghulams would be nullified if they are "winning" and the Royals "loosing" the fight since there are morale boosts and penalties that go with those indications.

Those first few charge kills are very important, and there is a lot of uncertainty in getting them which is probably why the Royals came out of the charge on the short end despite their 20% advantage of about 68% chance to kill for the Royals vs 57% chance to kill for the Ghulams during the charge phase.

[muffinman14]

The AI was on expert level

[+DOC+]

Quote[/b] (muffinman14 @ Nov. 28 2002,04:34)]The AI was on expert level
lol after all the huffing and puffing trying to find reasons for Ghulams beating Royals......

the answer springeth forth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Puzz3D]

LOL

Expert gives a 30% increase to the Ghulam's combat and +4 morale.

[Kraxis]

It was what I expected... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif