Steam introduces paying for mods; starts with Skyrim

[Hooahguy]

Im pretty surprised this hasnt been posted yet.

Link to announcement (http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/aboutpaidcontent/)

This is a terrible, terrible idea. First off, most of the revenue doesnt even go to the modders- Valve takes 75% of the revenue (http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=72850). Modders across the game spectrum are already railing against this new change. One Mass Effect modder I think put it best (https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704730313709437/):


I am a modder. I helped contribute to Mass Effect mods (MEHEM, CEM, and Harby Module, specifically). Now, I have not contributed to Skyrim mods, but I feel that I have enough experience on modding itself that I can at least have a justified opinion on the subject of Valve charging for mods. Basically, it is a terrible idea.


"Why is that? Don't good modders deserve support?" some may ask. Absolutely. Black Mesa, for instance, is a good example of a mod that might deserve monetary compensation. Counter Strike started as a mod too. As a modder and a human, I like money. But this isn't the way to go about it.


This situation Valve started is terrible, because it has resulted in, or will result in, the following:


First, Valve, you have now made "modder" a dirty word here on the steam forums almost overnight. Thanks a bunch. You have now divided PC consumers and modders, when we used to be a pretty tight bunch.


Second, I now see mods going up that are little tiny swords and whatnot going up for sale. Bundles already that cost more than the game itself. In other words, I am concerned about a complete influx of mods that are completely useless and tiny and unsupported and updated, just because of money-grabbers who want a piece of the pie.


Third, this leads to microtransaction hell. Hell for consumers, and a deluge of stuff to compete against for us modders. This isn't healthy competition. It is gonna be cutthroat. Thanks again for taking the fun out of it.


Fourth, there will be inevitable stealing of other's people's content and then selling it as their own. Some may claim that because they modified another mod's content, they now have created their own mod and are free to sell. I disagree. They are making money at the expense of others.


Fifth, you have a "return policy," if it is even worth of the name, that is full of holes. First, 24hrs isn't much time to test if a mod will glitch out or not. Ever heard of a standard 14 or 30 day return policy? Let's say a consumer buys a mod, then one week later the modder releases an update. This update has a bug, and the game crashes or glitches out. Then let's say, for whatever reason (even a good one. Like real life got in the way) the modder doesn't release an update to fix the bug. Before today, big deal. You could either uninstall the mod or revert to a previous version. Given it was free, most people wouldn't complain too much. But NOW, a consumer will likely be stuck with a useless piece of software they paid good money for. Software that now is worth zilch. They will be, understandably, really upset, with no way to get their money back.


Lastly, you, Valve, are likely hurting good, legal sites like Nexus Mods as some greedy people take their mods, or the "premium versions" off the site in favor of posting to the Steam Workshop. These sites rely on advertising revenue to run, and you will very likely hurt this revenue. Why do that? You used to have a reputiation of siding with the underdog. It is not like you are in competition with people like Nexus. It is not like they are EA, taking a corner of the market. And it isn't even like you really need the money Valve. This just feels to me like a cash cow. A move EA would be proud of, sadly.


As a modder, I disapprove of this move Steam. This may have far reaching consequences, for everyone involved.


As for the rest of you, if you are still reading (thanks by the way) please support the effort against this initiative by Valve. Sign the petition here https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop


More importantly, speak with your wallets. The best way to change this policy is to not spend One. Single. Cent. on mods. No matter what.


Keep mods free!
Ad Astra per Aspera




Already there are a number of paid mods out there. One mod was actually taken down within 24 hours because it was discovered that he was using assets from other mods without their permission. Apparently Valve refused to let the modders involved in the pay scheme reach out beforehand to the creators of the mods that their mods rely on to work.

Personally, Im not against the idea of paying modders for their work. Of course it depends on the mod, so I wouldnt be paying for a mod that retextured a sword, but I would probably give a donation to the modder who made a real work of art, like the Falskaar mod for Skyrim, which the creator basically made a huge quest line with a whole new world. He deserved money for that. But Im not going to give money for it if the mod creator is only getting 25% of what Im giving them. This is pure greed on Valve's part and I worry about the future of modding. This is certainly one of the issues with relying on Steam for everything, they were bound to abuse their power at some point.

[Veho Nex]

I think they should have a donate to modder section instead of selling the mods. That would be a better program.

[TheElusiveSniper]

I'm waiting for the "All factions unlocked" mod to come to a total war title for $5

[drone]

This is a terrible idea, if modding scene becomes solely about the money it's going to get ugly quick. Not to mention the legal problems the game publishers will have with this.

[Crandar]

A donation button would be enough.
No idea why Gaben shoud get 75% (or 100%, if it's less than 400$), for merely providing a site for the purchases to take place, while the modders get only the one fourth.
Greenlight was quite the disaster, so let's all hope that this initiative will have the same fate.

[Fisherking]

That is a money tactic for Steam and using the mod community to do it.

The small amount of cash might bring in some mods, and at the expense of other sites, but it brings people and mods to Steam. They keep most of the money and gain traffic.

I would boycott the whole thing and let Steam know it sucks. Right now they are a monoplay that needs broken up.

[Greyblades]

Let's review:
30% of the modders profits goes to valve, 45% goes to the devs, 25% goes to the modder.
I think the amount going to the dev is dependant on the developer's wishes, but I'm not sure. Either way 45% is what bethesda gets here.
A mod has to earn $100 before the modder gets his first $25. If it doesn't reach $100 he gets nothing.
Steam workshop still allows free mods.

8chan had a lot to say between the n and f words, warning some surprisingly mild profanity:
https://media.8ch.net/gamergatehq/src/1429863790998.png
They also noticed this:
https://media.8ch.net/gamergatehq/src/1429848843737.png
I found the page (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430854203) myself. I cant verify the donation link actually being removed but there is a link to the free version on nexus (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/14449/?) that is identical to the one pictured. The donation link on the free version is intact.

Also relevant is the press:

PC Gamer - http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-mods-wont-kill-modding-and-might-make-it-better/ Archived: https://archive.is/SUV8A
IGN - http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/04/23/steam-workshop-update-gives-creators-more-ways-to-make-money Archived:https://archive.is/JGxdm
Kotaku - http://steamed.kotaku.com/modders-can-now-make-money-on-steam-1699760897 Archived:https://archive.is/2HcMG
Giant Bomb - http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/steam-adds-support-for-paid-mods/1100-5193/ Archived:https://archive.is/9Uxsf
Gamespot - http://www.gamespot.com/articles/you-can-now-sell-skyrim-mods-on-steam/1100-6426844/ Archived:https://archive.is/ZLFfK

Rather blissfully optimistic, IMO

Kotaku is soemwhat interesting as apparantly 8chan caught an article before and after being attacked by editors:

(Before)
https://archive.is/jmBC6
(After)
https://archive.is/v2wHL

Highlight:

>It will also be interesting to see how this market shakes out. What, for instance, will become the standard price for, say, a weapon pack versus an entire quest line or expansion? It’s a bold new frontier, or at least a potentially interesting one. Now I don’t mean to be rude, but I really should be going. I have a horse armor market to corner, and I need to figure out how to turn My Little Pony into My Little Pony, if you know what I mean. (I mean creatively renaming everything and declaring all eerie similarities entirely coincidental.)
changed to

>It will also be interesting to see how this market shakes out. What, for instance, will become the standard price for, say, a weapon pack versus an entire quest line or expansion? And how will the free mod market be impacted? What will people decide to give away for free now that getting paid is a much more viable option than in the past? It’s a bold new frontier, or at least a potentially interesting one. It could even be damaging, if you look at things from a pessimistic angle (Free things now cost money? Mod makers only take 25 percent of the profit while big companies rake in the rest? Etc.)
Again, cant verify it.

My sources originate from: https://8ch.net/gamergatehq/res/87539.html
It is an image board, view at your own risk. (why mere images and profanity would be a risk to a full grown adult escapes me, but I suppose there could be kids reading.)

[Montmorency]

From the POV piece in the OP:


Fourth, there will be inevitable stealing of other's people's content and then selling it as their own. Some may claim that because they modified another mod's content, they now have created their own mod and are free to sell. I disagree. They are making money at the expense of others.

Also note, as OP himself pointed out, that collaboration between mods is the lifeblood of large modding scenes.

If I were to find that all the major Skyrim mods (taking base-game version for granted) were developing completely independently of each other, such that I had to choose one of X major gameplay mods, rather than most, if not all, of them, then I would just give up, play the base game unmodded for 10 or 20 hours, then abandon it all forever.

If mods add value to games, and pubs and devs want a piece of that value - as this initiative certainly isn't about the modders - then Scorched Earth + King of the Hill is just the worst way I could think of going about it short of having local law enforcement confiscate every Skyrim player's gaming machine to search for modded content to charge...

[Husar]

Finally the invisible hand of the free market can improve modding.

The 75% Valve take probably include licensing fees because the modders make money using the developers' game/engine. If you want to sell a commercial game built on the Cry Engine, you also have to pay a huge licensing fee. In this case the licensing fee seems to be directly based on how much money you make.

I for one found the Steam Workshop quite confusing (and slow) so far and barely go there. Now they added more stepping stones to it that make me want to avoid it.
Is it even possible to release big mods there? I remember reading something about a 100MB file size limit or is that game-dependent?
A lot of the games just seem to have script changes which is not the type of mod I'm usually looking for (new models etc.).

[Ja'chyra]

Not for me thanks, I won't be paying for mods, now I just need to stick to my guns.

[Ironside]

Kotaku is soemwhat interesting as apparantly 8chan caught an article before and after being attacked by editors:

(Before)
https://archive.is/jmBC6
(After)
https://archive.is/v2wHL

Highlight:

changed to

Again, cant verify it.


You could read your link. Its longer and contains both parts now.

Most links are somewhat sceptic to it if you read between the lines. But it's more wait and see and parts of the concept are good (big modders getting some form of financial compensation) rather than outright condemnation.

The current way does feel to be a path to failure.

[Greyblades]

You could read your link. Its longer and contains both parts now.When I read it it didn't, but good for them.



Most links are somewhat sceptic to it if you read between the lines. But it's more wait and see and parts of the concept are good (big modders getting some form of financial compensation) rather than outright condemnation.
I still maintain my opinion that it is blissfully optimistic whan compared tohow bad the situation seems. The first iteration of this program is a disaster and while it remains it in the public memory I can't see the modding community ever trusting valve enough to sign on to anything short of a version that lets 95% of profits go to modders, which wont happen because valve are too greedy to take less than 5% and the developers wont accept not getting a cut regardless of if they deserve it.

As for the consumers: There are few mods worth more than a penny, and those that are when compared to the main game dont exceed a worth of £5, 10 at the absolute maximum. As for the distribution of this payment, well I paid £35 for the base game and around £20 for thier expansions, I've paid enough as it is and I sure am not paying bethesda anything for something they didn't make. As for valve, it's services arent worth more than a pittance let alone 30%. I can get what they do for free from nexus and I can even check for and download updates myself.

Until this payment program changes to reflect that I will have nothing to do with this.

[Vuk]

This is no good.

[Beskar]

I thought Horse Armour DLC for £5 was bad. Imagine my face when I saw a shinier retexture of one sword for £2 on Steam Workshop.

[easytarget]

Amazing all the places you find recurring fee structures when you start looking for it. Think about it.

[ReluctantSamurai]

It's this kind of BS that makes me glad I've returned to my first gaming love....chess. I will continue to play my old favs when the urge strikes, but I refuse to spend a single dime on the outright crap being produced these days, let alone on mods that make that crap smell better:brood:

[Fragony]

That's disgusting, modders don't do it for the money.

[Hooahguy]

Well, they removed the paid mods aspect. (http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/3435tu/paid_mods_in_steam_workshop/)


We're going to remove the payment feature from the Skyrim workshop. For anyone who spent money on a mod, we'll be refunding you the complete amount. We talked to the team at Bethesda and they agree.We've done this because it's clear we didn't understand exactly what we were doing. We've been shipping many features over the years aimed at allowing community creators to receive a share of the rewards, and in the past, they've been received well. It's obvious now that this case is different.

To help you understand why we thought this was a good idea, our main goals were to allow mod makers the opportunity to work on their mods full time if they wanted to, and to encourage developers to provide better support to their mod communities. We thought this would result in better mods for everyone, both free & paid. We wanted more great mods becoming great products, like Dota, Counter-strike, DayZ, and Killing Floor, and we wanted that to happen organically for any mod maker who wanted to take a shot at it.

But we underestimated the differences between our previously successful revenue sharing models, and the addition of paid mods to Skyrim's workshop. We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. We think this made us miss the mark pretty badly, even though we believe there's a useful feature somewhere here.
Now that you've backed a dump truck of feedback onto our inboxes, we'll be chewing through that, but if you have any further thoughts let us know.

[Fragony]

Proper mea culpa, bad excuse, really bad attempt. Valve has lost a lot of respect from me for putting their toes in the water to feel if it's swimmable.

[Crandar]

The chickened out, until they come out with a better offer, according to which the modder will get the 33% or something like that.

That should be a good lesson for the naysayers, who whine that consumers are powerless and insist on the futility of every boycott effort.

[Fragony]

Nothing at all

[Veho Nex]

So I cannot tell, are you guys more upset over the paid mods or the fact that after backlash from the community valve backed down?

[Hooahguy]

Personally, while I hate what Valve tried to do, I kind of admire them for backing down. It would have been super easy for them to keep with it or to ditch it for another reason ("not cost effective or some :daisy: like that) but they actually listened and owned up to their mistake. So props to them for that.

[drone]

I believe Valve's cut was the standard 30% (hosting, distribution, and integration) they get for everything, so I didn't really have a problem with that part of the deal. The 45% to Bethesda though... I just think the modding world works best if it remains more informal, more room for creativity.

[Fragony]

Personally, while I hate what Valve tried to do, I kind of admire them for backing down. It would have been super easy for them to keep with it or to ditch it for another reason ("not cost effective or some :daisy: like that) but they actually listened and owned up to their mistake. So props to them for that.

It was no mistake it was an attempt to introduce a business-model.

[Hooahguy]

It was a mistake, as it was an action or judgment that was misguided or wrong, the very definition of a mistake.

[easytarget]

What shall we call it then when they roll it back out, only the next time with a new game so they don't have an established mod base to offend?

A re-launched mistake or a re-launched business model looking to create yet another revenue stream that doesn't involve Valve ever actually making a game themselves ever again (unless you count HL3, haha).

[Hooahguy]

Let's see if its brought back before we pass a judgement like that. I remember reading somewhere that this little mistake actually cost Valve about a million dollars because the sheer number of email complaints destroyed their servers or something. So I dont think that Valve would be so quick to try again. Hell hath no fury like a gaming community scorned, after all.

[Vuk]

At least they backed down.

[Beskar]

Let's see if its brought back before we pass a judgement like that. I remember reading somewhere that this little mistake actually cost Valve about a million dollars because the sheer number of email complaints destroyed their servers or something. So I dont think that Valve would be so quick to try again. Hell hath no fury like a gaming community scorned, after all.

Actually, the system has already been in place for years and works for many titles such as Team Fortress, Counter Strike, Dungeon Defenders Eternity, DotA, etc. This is also done by many different companies such as Second Life, VMsomething, etc.

So people are paying for 'mods', but what the outcry was about is an established mod-scene, style of modding taking place, and the sheer crap quality and content available for purchase.

[Hooahguy]

I think the difference here was that it was being done on a non-Valve game.

[Beskar]

I think the difference here was that it was being done on a non-Valve game.

There are non-valve games which have the system, but the main issue is, those 'mods' are skins/model changes which have been approved. The modding scene which Skyrim has are total overhauls, not simply a teamfortress hat. It gets difficult attempting to enforce mods too, since you could have just downloaded one from Nexus, then put it on Steam as your own work. I think a couple of their flagship mods also suffered from this.

[Ironside]

There are non-valve games which have the system, but the main issue is, those 'mods' are skins/model changes which have been approved. The modding scene which Skyrim has are total overhauls, not simply a teamfortress hat. It gets difficult attempting to enforce mods too, since you could have just downloaded one from Nexus, then put it on Steam as your own work. I think a couple of their flagship mods also suffered from this.

You also have that the mods builds on and borrows from each other. If a big mod contains 5-6 smaller mods as well, how are you going to handle it (like pricing for example) and distribute the money?

[Husar]

You also have that the mods builds on and borrows from each other. If a big mod contains 5-6 smaller mods as well, how are you going to handle it (like pricing for example) and distribute the money?

That's probably not a big concern as long as Bethesda get 45%. ~;)