View Full Version : if yer can't stand the heat...
Sandy-San
11-26-2002, 17:18
bah used a useless 2-star general with a unit of chiv MAA to try to storm a castle in some desert or other. the poor ickle thing was so tired by the time he got to the castle that the unit broke and ran, 3 times i think he can expect to get sent on a highly dangerous 'special mission' soon...
anyways - i couldn't find this elsewhere on the boards, so can anyone explain armour's effect on stamina in the hot parts of the world please?
I know the greater the armour, the quicker they will tire; but what about the armor mods? does a unit of hobilars (low starting armour) with an armour upgrade tire as easily as a unit of knights with high starting armour. or do the upgrades not come into play for heat exhaustion? (like, maybe the upgrades represent superior quality armour that is lighter or something..)
and if so, does that mean i need to create special desert units in provinces without armourers to avoid the penalties?
A.Saturnus
11-26-2002, 17:24
I don`t think so. I played the Egyptians and I had no problem with tiring even so my units had all armour upgrades except Kwarazmiam but they tire as usual.
LovelyHaji
11-26-2002, 17:42
yeah those Kzarmain knights are rubbish in the desert. Mine get exhausted just watching everyone else so much for the flanking heavy cav...
It all depends on the armourrating of the unit, doesn't matter if it is upgraded or not.
I have had a battle where I had a non-upgraded unit of Jinettes and a unit with three extra armours... needless to say the vanilla Jinattes held up good at two staminabars all the time, while the others were totally exhausted.
It is the Armour rating behind the = that matters.
So if your Unit would have armour 2 + 3 (Upgrades) the unit would tire like any Unit with an starting Armour of 5.
Note : Some Units like the Camels or Nubian Spearmen or desert Archers, etc. tire less fast than other Units that are not made out of People living in the desert.
To abandon Armour entirely however is not effective either since it is the main advantage of the Catholic/Orthodox nations over the Muslims.
I found a mix of low armoured Archers, Infanterie with medium Armour and a few Units of light Cavalry to preform execelent against most Hostiles ... but against a horde of 6k Egyptians your better off having some high armoured Lancers or such around to save the day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .
solypsist
11-26-2002, 20:17
A good idea is to dismount maybe half of your knights and keep the other half mounted (duh). Use your dismounted knights to do most of the fighting and save your mounted men for single charges. After that one charge and combat, they'll usually be exhausted and you should avoid using them for any more fighting other than mopping up fleeing enemy. Now I know this advice is a bit moot: if you've got mounted knights, and they're just sitting around done with their combat while the rest of your army is still fighting, you're going to use them right? But if you must, keep in mind they'll suffer more casualties than normal.
Which makes it important to use mercenary cavalry as much as possible when fighting in Africa and Asia Minor.
Sandy-San
11-26-2002, 20:22
nice one jaret, kraxis - trying to blend an anti-egyptian force at the mo, and was quite shocked when i realised how quickly the heat would take its toll on well armoured troops
(...and i live in the desert, so its not like i shouldn't have guessed...) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Quote[/b] (Sandy-San @ Nov. 26 2002,13:22)]nice one jaret, kraxis - trying to blend an anti-egyptian force at the mo, and was quite shocked when i realised how quickly the heat would take its toll on well armoured troops
(...and i live in the desert, so its not like i shouldn't have guessed...) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Hahaha... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Soly, while your idea is good on the paper it is practically useless, or rather the mounted knights useless.
If you are going to keep anything heavier than Feudal Knights mounted then you must be sure to be able to lauch the charge right away. If you wait your knights will eventually become Totally Exhausted, even when standing still. And that time is actually quite short. Then add that you might move them around to postition them.
No, I always dismount my knights in the desert.
Spetulhu
11-27-2002, 05:25
I`ve found that the best way is to win as fast as possible. Press the attack, move closer to the enemy lines all the time and charge them when they`re moving. You will take losses, but the enemy hopefully breaks and runs.
MonkeyMan
11-27-2002, 12:31
Can i clarify something.
Does the fatigue count on the units base armour before upgrades or after with the upgrades.
This seems like a funny way to go about things.
Surely the idea of superior armour from a better armourer is not that he just puts more metal in, making it weigh more but quite the opposite.
A master of the craft would make ornate items that were stronger, better looking, lighter, cooler and more effective than a cruder smith so why be penalised for buying the best???
Quote[/b] (MonkeyMan @ Nov. 27 2002,05:31)]This seems like a funny way to go about things.
Surely the idea of superior armour from a better armourer is not that he just puts more metal in, making it weigh more but quite the opposite.
Agreed - I found it particularly upsetting that all the Gallowglasses and Highland Clansman I sent into Egypt fatigued at the same speed as troops with heavy starting armour - simply because I've held Scotland & Ireland long enough to develop a reasonable quality armourer in each http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
*heh*
Its about what the armourer is working with. A Bonus of +4 to Armour is not just ... softer leather or cooler looks. A bonus of that size definately involves replacing current armour with a heavier one.
For Cavalry an armour rating of 9 is for the Gothic Armour ... for Infanterie the rating for Gothic Armour is 5.
So increasing the Armour of an Highland Clansmen from 1 up to 5 would mean that those clansmen are now wearing Gothic Armour ... the strongest and most advanced kind of armour.
A Gothic Sergant with an +4 armour bonus ... would wear additional layers of chainmail ... maybe a heavier reinforced shield, etc.
You can never make an Armour that was made out of leather as strong as an armour made out of steel ... if so, tell me where to get it
And an Armour made out of steel, quickly becomes an oven in the desert http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (simply because of chemical/physical reasons ... metal channels heat very well)
Quote[/b] (Jaret @ Nov. 27 2002,12:51)]You can never make an Armour that was made out of leather as strong as an armour made out of steel ... if so, tell me where to get it
Of course you can...
Just go and buy a suit of Black Dragon Scale armour.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
MonkeyMan
11-28-2002, 01:47
no i think you really can. The equipment type of these units does not change, just the quality. By making say leather armour lighter and better able to deflect blows, it's going to offer better protection overall than rubbish quality chainmail. The difference between what your chivalric knight would wear and a gothic knight is not in the amout of metal used, it is to do with design, having plates angled to deflect blows, better materials from a greater understanding of steel and the composition of such to get a balance between strength, malliability and fragility.
Fact is there should be a fatige modifier for -
no armour
light armour
chain armour
mixed armour (of : partial plate/chainmail/leather)
Full Plate
Quite simply a greater level of armourer produces better quality of the same thing that was produced previously by someone more skilled at making farm tools and horse shoes.
taking it to its logical conclusion for arab factions building a master armourer may be a disadvantage, where historically, this was not so and islamic armour was of great quality, light and allowed good movement.
quote:
You can never make an Armour that was made out of leather as strong as an armour made out of steel ... if so, tell me where to get it
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you have to factor into this the lesser encumberance, and increased mobility of better quality armour. assume that really poor gothic armour was comparatively heavy and inflexable and offered sensorary depravation, then someone in high quality leather armour with a shield could easily outfight them and expose a weakness in their armour. Quite simply good armour is a trade off between fighting ability and protection.
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Of course you can...
Just go and buy a suit of Black Dragon Scale armour....
*******************************
I resent that, surely you know that red dragon scale is the best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Spetulhu
11-28-2002, 07:28
Quote[/b] (MonkeyMan @ Nov. 28 2002,01:47)]Of course you can...
Just go and buy a suit of Black Dragon Scale armour....
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I resent that, surely you know that red dragon scale is the best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Nah, in the Middle Ages we are allowed to be Evil That means we can use Gold Dragon scale armour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
But seriously, the master smith probably doesn`t think like us. Why shave weight off that armour when you can instead ADD protection? He`ll make some areas stronger just by superior construction, but uses the weight saved from that to add more armour in certain areas. Like the front of the breastplate? It`s not strong enough to save you from a perfect arbalest shot, but with some additional metal it might save you from an angled hit...
MonkeyMan
11-28-2002, 11:20
perhaps, but i still don't see the argument that this armour should fatigue a troop more in a desert. As you said it doesn't weight anymore.
Spetulhu
11-29-2002, 07:27
On the other hand, it might weigh more. The western knight`s armour was upgraded not by making it lighter but by ADDING plates to it. Chain mail at least lets air through it, solid metal plates probably don`t http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
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