Cal-state: northridge registration game.

[Greyblades]

Cal State-Northridge Halts Class Registration Until Students Complete Feminist Anti-Sexual Assault Video Game (http://pjmedia.com/blog/cal-state-northridge-halts-class-registration-until-students-complete-feminist-anti-sexual-assault-video-game/)

All CSUN students registering for the 2015 Fall Semester are being forced to participate in an online, SIMS-style character game about sexual assault before being allowed to claim a seat for any course.
(http://sundial.csun.edu/2015/04/deadline-approaches-for-students-to-complete-agent-of-change/)
The game, titled “Agent of Change (https://agentofchange.net/)” and designed by feminist activists, does not allow students to complete the game until they have given enough “correct” answers as per the designers’ stated philosophical influences, such as “norms challenging,” “feminist theory,” and “social norms theory.” According to the Agent of Change website, the program helps users “see the connections between these power-based violations, how these problems affect their lives, and what they can do to challenge the cultural norms that help sexual violence flourish."

The students have to play this conversation tree game:


https://i.imgur.com/B0ce9RS.png
https://i.imgur.com/qIE42Xf.png
https://i.imgur.com/Jx58RLL.png
https://i.imgur.com/m2FAfWv.png
https://i.imgur.com/FZfbHn6.png

Video (http://agentofchange.net/demo.html)

Then they must answer a quiz before they can enroll into any course.

So what's the problem? Well, according to one of the students; the questions are agree-disagree and if you dont select the answers the creator wants you must restart the entire game and do it again with the 'right' answers, if you dont you cant enroll: (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167187101)


So in order for me to enroll in the classes i already paid for this semester, my university is forcing me to take a 3.5 hour online course on feminism. The classes i need are almost filled up and the school locked/put a hold on my registration until i take this online class
[...]

2 minutes in to the "game" i realize its actually not a game and the computer forces u to pick the politically correct answers.. if you dont pick the right answer you have to replay the level until you pick the right one..

[...]
after nearly 3 hours of playing this retarded game you have to take a quiz and need 80% to pass.. here are some of the questions

https://i.imgur.com/Ecamwhi.png

My friend tried trolling(answered strongly agree on questions like #7) and was forced to restart the ENTIRE thing over from the beginning until he "gained a better understanding of violence" aka selected the politically correct answers.

[Sarmatian]

It's hard to judge entire 3.5 hour quiz from a few screenshots.

It's often a problem of perspective. There are things you shouldn't do. If you go to a City vs. United game, and sit among die hard United fans in a City shirt, you're asking for trouble. That doesn't give them the right to beat you up, but you should have been smarter and not have done that.

Similar thing with rape and other violent crimes. Be smart not to put yourself in a situation where you could be raped/mugged/assaulted/hurt. That doesn't excuse the attacker, but it's not about him, it's about you.

The problem starts when someone who is employing common sense - you shouldn't have gone with a drunk guy you barely know to his flat on the other side of town - is accused of blaming the victim. It's not the victim's fault, it's the attackers fault, but if you were smarter, you could have avoided being the victim.

[Greyblades]

I just found this (http://agentofchange.net/demo.html)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It's hard to judge entire 3.5 hour quiz from a few screenshots.

It's often a problem of perspective. There are things you shouldn't do. If you go to a City vs. United game, and sit among die hard United fans in a City shirt, you're asking for trouble. That doesn't give them the right to beat you up, but you should have been smarter and not have done that.

Similar thing with rape and other violent crimes. Be smart not to put yourself in a situation where you could be raped/mugged/assaulted/hurt. That doesn't excuse the attacker, but it's not about him, it's about you.

The problem starts when someone who is employing common sense - you shouldn't have gone with a drunk guy you barely know to his flat on the other side of town - is accused of blaming the victim. It's not the victim's fault, it's the attackers fault, but if you were smarter, you could have avoided being the victim.

The more ardent feminists feel that women should not be required by cultural conditions to take the practical steps you suggest, preferring an alteration of the culture that obviates the need for any such precautionary measures. Consider the following linked wiki entry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk)

Feminists argue that women should not have to adapt, but that the culture must be altered so as to render that adaptation moot.

[Sarmatian]

The more ardent feminists feel that women should not be required by cultural conditions to take the practical steps you suggest, preferring an alteration of the culture that obviates the need for any such precautionary measures. Consider the following linked wiki entry. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk)

Feminists argue that women should not have to adapt, but that the culture must be altered so as to render that adaptation moot.

I'm not really that concerned with what ardent feminists want in this particular issue. I agree with them, in fact - it would be nice if we lived in a perfect world like that, where there is 0% chance that a women may be sexually assaulted. In reality, unfortunately, we're not there yet, and may not get there ever. My problem is that if one holds such a view, he'd be accused of "blaming the victim" and probably a sexist.

In the meantime while we're getting there, be smart and take precautionary measures. The society can catch the perpetrator, but it can't un-rape the victim.

[drone]

California. :no:

Still a better game than Daikata though.

[Kadagar_AV]

Feminazism reached the US too?

This is how we have had it in Sweden since the very early 2000's...

Heck, our oldest and most renowned university have to GENUS-CERTIFY each and every class they hold... And yes, that goes for mathematics and stuff too - "But do you bring forward FEMALE mathematicians historically?"

[Gilrandir]

There are things you shouldn't do. If you go to a City vs. United game, and sit among die hard United fans in a City shirt, you're asking for trouble. That doesn't give them the right to beat you up, but you should have been smarter and not have done that.

Similar thing with rape and other violent crimes. Be smart not to put yourself in a situation where you could be raped/mugged/assaulted/hurt. That doesn't excuse the attacker, but it's not about him, it's about you.

The problem starts when someone who is employing common sense - you shouldn't have gone with a drunk guy you barely know to his flat on the other side of town - is accused of blaming the victim. It's not the victim's fault, it's the attackers fault, but if you were smarter, you could have avoided being the victim.
This is about sums it up what I said concerning Charlie Hebdo.

[Kralizec]

I'd be interested in knowing what the course is that the guy is applying for. If it is something completely unrelated to gender issues then that would make it even harder to understand.

I can understand the motivation behind this game but it seems rather disproportionate and I doubt that it's very effective. People who are smart enough to take university classes will generally be able to spot which answer is the one you're expected to pick. If you're unlucky you might have to try twice, but either way it seems unlikely that this will have any impact on the students behaviour. Someone who is a pompous, sexist jerk is not likely to undergo a change of character simply by taking this test.

[Ironside]

Feminazism reached the US too?

This is how we have had it in Sweden since the very early 2000's...

Heck, our oldest and most renowned university have to GENUS-CERTIFY each and every class they hold... And yes, that goes for mathematics and stuff too - "But do you bring forward FEMALE mathematicians historically?"

Meh that's easy. Astronomy, early computer programming and WWII code breaking. Basically works that were time consuming and boring, so you delegated them.

On the original topic, I get the point.
It's to get out facts, dealing with false preconceptions and self denial. And you have to do a stronger test than something you can simply troll through without bothering to read. The method is very blunt though.



I can understand the motivation behind this game but it seems rather disproportionate and I doubt that it's very effective. People who are smart enough to take university classes will generally be able to spot which answer is the one you're expected to pick. If you're unlucky you might have to try twice, but either way it seems unlikely that this will have any impact on the students behaviour. Someone who is a pompous, sexist jerk is not likely to undergo a change of character simply by taking this test.

It's not aimed at mr pompous, sexist jerk. It's aimed at those who would change their behaviour if they start considering it from a female perspective. If you think that no means yes, you're probably not going to even notice that the girl you insisted to sleep with didn't take it well afterwards.

[Montmorency]

The thingie at my university was quite mild. Just basically a tailored version of the drug abuse video tutorial we had to click through upon matriculation. Also, we were given a month to get through it (the sexual assault awareness material).

The OP program isn't exactly radically different - it's just more explicit about what the makers find unacceptable. (Though the design of this version does bring to mind certain United States HomeSec-type questions, like "Are you a terrorist" or "Have you ever been a member of a Communist party", making it somewhat sillier than usual.)

What people should be upset about is that universities are treating the whole endeavour as a joke. If you're going to do something, make up a serious program, maybe divide students into small groups according to age, interests, schedules, etc, and allow them to talk through their beliefs and feelings in a moderated context for an hour or two. Of course, one could argue this too would fall short from anyone's perspective, but an "oh yeah, here's some thing we put together, our job here is done" attitude on the schools' part does disservice to everyone. Better to just leave the issue alone entirely, in that case.

[Greyblades]

The issue is that it's 3 hours long and if you give the "wrong" answers it makes you start over from the beginning. 6 hours or more of that and it becomes damn near brainwashing by sensorary deprivation.

I mean I can only imagine it like getting stuck in disney's: "its small world" ride for half the day, you dont come out of that the same man.

[Kadagar_AV]

Meh that's easy. Astronomy, early computer programming and WWII code breaking. Basically works that were time consuming and boring, so you delegated them.

And why?

Sorry to rock your boat, but let me rephrase my thinking... What mathematical EXCELLENT MINDS have women produced?

Don't get me wrong, there are some women comparable in some fields. But that's the exception, not the rule.


MY PROBLEM is when universities start to teach 50/50 on women/men gender based when they teach mathematical history, for political reasons, instead of teaching what great minds brought mathematics forwards and why - regardless of sex.

[Husar]

It's true, men are better at most things: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11288874/Men-really-are-more-stupid-than-women-research-shows.html

[Sir Moody]

What people should be upset about is that universities are treating the whole endeavour as a joke. If you're going to do something, make up a serious program, maybe divide students into small groups according to age, interests, schedules, etc, and allow them to talk through their beliefs and feelings in a moderated context for an hour or two. Of course, one could argue this too would fall short from anyone's perspective, but an "oh yeah, here's some thing we put together, our job here is done" attitude on the schools' part does disservice to everyone. Better to just leave the issue alone entirely, in that case.

I am amazed no-one has mentioned this yet but they are treating it as a joke because they don't actually want to do it - for all Greys talk of the evil feminist rulers of Cal state they are complying with Federal laws requiring Collages to provide sexual violence prevention and awareness programs, and instead of oh I don't know actually educating the students have opted for a much lower cost alternative...

That's right gentlemen - no feminists in the shadows here just the Federal Government and lazy, cost cutting bureaucrats...

[Kadagar_AV]

I am amazed no-one has mentioned this yet but they are treating it as a joke because they don't actually want to do it - for all Greys talk of the evil feminist rulers of Cal state they are complying with Federal laws requiring Collages to provide sexual violence prevention and awareness programs, and instead of oh I don't know actually educating the students have opted for a much lower cost alternative...

That's right gentlemen - no feminists in the shadows here just the Federal Government and lazy, cost cutting bureaucrats...

So if not for feminists, mind you tell us exactly what brought the Federal Government go that way?

[Sir Moody]

So if not for feminists, mind you tell us exactly what brought the Federal Government go that way?

Several high profile rape cases.

[Sarmatian]

And why?

Sorry to rock your boat, but let me rephrase my thinking... What mathematical EXCELLENT MINDS have women produced?


Since they gave birth to them, one could say, all of them.

But, you've asked a loaded question. Very few women even got a chance to learn math before half a century, or a century ago, and one always has to account for cultural bias (girls don't need math!). But, as that is getting less prevalent, girls are getting better in maths.

In 2012 PISA tests, girls were really close to boys in maths, and even ahead in some countries.

[Greyblades]

Gentlemen are we really going to bury our heads every time feminists go too far by by pointing to our pet male chauvinist?

To get into a university course you have to partake in this preachy and rather patronising multiple choice game where every time you do not respond the way the maker wants you are made to rewatch the previous scene, then at the end you have to do an opinion quiz where if your opinion does not match up to the maker's you are made to restart the entire tedious process over.

Whether you agree with it or not it is rather blatant that it's methodology is that "you WILL learn to side with my opinion, or you will repeat the lesson, until you comply you will not progress ." It doesnt matter if you think the opinion is right if the method of it's propagation is blatant coercion.

If you still dont have a problem with this, replace the maker's opinion with kadagar's.

[Husar]

If it happens in an anglo country it does not worry me, anglo countries take everything to the extreme.

One used to have an extreme empire.
One has an extreme army.
One has extreme numbers of poisonous animals.
One has extreme public surveillance.
One or more have extreme zero tolerance policies at schools.
In all anglo countries everyone is extremely concerned about being so extreme.
And so on (this is really just a small selection of my "prejudices" but I love you anyway).

English is a wonderful language but I wouldn't want my kids to grow up with it as their mother tongue, it might make them extreme. ~;)

And if the game isn't dynamic, people will probably spread the right answers somewhere on the innernets, like in a fraternity Facebook group where they usually share pictures of women on toilets that they took on campus or something like that. You might call it a waste of time and so might I but there are quite a few of those around nowadays. Imagine you spend 3 hours writing a job application and then don't get the job and are still thankful to the job creators and write 99 more. You also have to agree with the government not to murder people or you WILL be thrown into a jail.

So what exactly is the argument? That students should have the right to think that rape is fine and still get to reap the same benefits as the rest of society? What are the specific questions that are overly patronising and which are the answers noone should be forced to give?
The screenshot of Q2-Q7 only has statements where you should probably just answer strongly disagree and get on with life unless they are trick questions from male advocats. (Warning: half a joke in there!!!)

[Greyblades]

If it happens in an anglo country it does not worry me, anglo countries take everything to the extreme.

One used to have an extreme empire.
One has an extreme army.
One has extreme numbers of poisonous animals.
One has extreme public surveillance.
One or more have extreme zero tolerance policies at schools.
In all anglo countries everyone is extremely concerned about being so extreme.
And so on (this is really just a small selection of my "prejudices" but I love you anyway).

English is a wonderful language but I wouldn't want my kids to grow up with it as their mother tongue, it might make them extreme.

Said by the nationality that in the span of thirty years gave us exhibit A of the results of both extremes of the nationalism scale. Or perhaps do you like me occasionally object to what our nations do?


And if the game isn't dynamic, people will probably spread the right answers somewhere on the innernets, like in a fraternity Facebook group where they usually share pictures of women on toilets that they took on campus or something like that. You might call it a waste of time and so might I but there are quite a few of those around nowadays. Imagine you spend 3 hours writing a job application and then don't get the job and are still thankful to the job creators and write 99 more. You also have to agree with the government not to murder people or you WILL be thrown into a jail.

So what exactly is the argument? That students should have the right to think that rape is fine and still get to reap the same benefits as the rest of society? What are the specific questions that are overly patronising and which are the answers noone should be forced to give?
The screenshot of Q2-Q7 only has statements where you should probably just answer strongly disagree and get on with life unless they are trick questions from male advocats. (Warning: half a joke in there!!!) Ignoring the ever so prevalent sexist assumption of "most men need to be told not to be rapists":

The argument is that if the message is so obvious why is agreeing to it being imposed as a pre-requisite for higher education instead of being allowed to stand on it's own merit? Forcing it on students gives the impression the people setting it arent secure in thier beliefs to allow criticism. That you must state you disgree with these things or have to go through teh song and dance again and again until you get it right, well, it seems less "this is a good idea" and more "Dont question doctrin"

[Husar]

Said by the nationality that gave us exhibit A of the results of both extremes of the nationalism scale. Or perhaps do you like me occasionally dislike what our nations are doing?

That's why we are so moderate now, it only took us two World Wars and a Cold War to find our middle. We kept some of the extremes of course, but the mainstream here is rather centrist as you can see by the "we have to find a common solution"-chancellor from a relatively centrist part in a coalition with the most centrist party from the other side that we keep reelecting.


Ignoring the ever so prevalent strawman of "most men need to be told not to be rapists":

It's easy to ignore things that are not even there. :inquisitive:


The argument is that if the message is so obvious why is agreeing to it being imposed as a pre-requisite for higher education instead of being allowed to stand on it's own merit? Forcing it on students gives the impression they arent secure in thier beliefs to allow criticism. That you must state you disgree with these things or have to go through teh song and dance again and again until you get it right, well, it seems less "this is a good idea" and more "Dont question doctrin"

Well, I wouldn't know, just like I don't understand how you can litter a country with CCTV, check all communication of your citizens and claim to defend freedom. Where I come from the constitution says that all tele communication, via letter or otherwise, has to remain secret.
Maybe it's just what others have said, that they are trying to cover their asses because in that respective country there is also an extreme culture of suing for the craziest things. Not that we don't have silly lawsuits here, it just seems a little more, how to say that..."extreme" over there.

Also keep in mind that in some cases, perhaps also this game, the training is made a bit extreme on purpose because people do not act as extreme in everyday life anyway. Like when you learn dancing you practice the moves in a more extreme way but are not supposed to dance like that when you're out on a party. What's wrong with the game is that it only covers sexism and not e.g. insults based on disabilities or being poor as well. They should probably add another 3 hours, people have a month to do it anyway. ~;)

[Rhyfelwyr]

This is stupid and people should start taking responsibility for themselves.

If you leave your doors and windows open when you go to sleep at night and get burgled, yes you bear some sort of responsibility for what happened. The police will probably recommend you don't do it in future without worrying about cries of "victim blaming".

Same goes for leaving your car door open with the keys in the keyhole while you nip into the shops.

Or a well-dressed businessman deciding to take a stroll round a ghetto.

The job of the police is to deal with criminals and try to make the world a bit safer, not to absolve us all from our individual responsibilities, or to create some sort of utopia where we can take any sort of irresponsible action free from consequences.

[Greyblades]

That's why we are so moderate now, it only took us two World Wars and a Cold War to find our middle. We kept some of the extremes of course, but the mainstream here is rather centrist as you can see by the "we have to find a common solution"-chancellor from a relatively centrist part in a coalition with the most centrist party from the other side that we keep reelecting.
Good for you, please begin to notice that your european satelites are beginning to feel the same as you did after versailles. You might want to tell brussels to stop giving the people who say "the ones running the EU think the only entity that matters is itself and not it's members" more ammunition.


It's easy to ignore things that are not even there. :inquisitive: Hmm. Point. Lets go with "ignoring the condescending assumption that most young people need to be told rape is serious."

Sorry.


Well, I wouldn't know, just like I don't understand how you can litter a country with CCTV, check all communication of your citizens and claim to defend freedom. Where I come from the constitution says that all tele communication, via letter or otherwise, has to remain secret.
Maybe it's just what others have said, that they are trying to cover their asses because in that respective country there is also an extreme culture of suing for the craziest things. Not that we don't have silly lawsuits here, it just seems a little more, how to say that..."extreme" over there.As I said, I occasionally object to what my nation does. Now more than before.


Also keep in mind that in some cases, perhaps also this game, the training is made a bit extreme on purpose because people do not act as extreme in everyday life anyway. Like when you learn dancing you practice the moves in a more extreme way but are not supposed to dance like that when you're out on a party. What's wrong with the game is that it only covers sexism and not e.g. insults based on disabilities or being poor as well. They should probably add another 3 hours, people have a month to do it anyway. ~;)The assumption that it is needed is itself highly insulting, that it is mandatory and highly obtrusive amplifies it. With such emphasis on avoiding hurting anyone's feelings it is strange that this insult is being defended.

[Husar]

Hmm. Point. Lets go with "ignoring the condescending assumption that most young people need to be told rape is serious."

Again, not there.


The assumption that it is needed is itself highly insulting, that it is mandatory and highly obtrusive amplifies it.

No, the problem seems to be that there are actually problems with rape on campuses and so some people do indeed have to be made aware of the issue. Making everyone aware might serve two purposes:
1) If bystanders see something, they might be more aware of what is going on and less likely to excuse and watch it without helping.
2) The people who think it's fine are among the ones trained, the only way to train them would be by using profiling and then branding them as potential offenders and sending them to classes. Would you prefer that over just educating everyone or would you rather tell the rape victims that they should have watched their backs better and that you won't do anything about the ongoing rape cases?

[Gilrandir]

Of course, one could argue this too would fall short from anyone's perspective, but an "oh yeah, here's some thing we put together, our job here is done" attitude on the schools' part does disservice to everyone.
Having worked quite a time at a University I would venture to make a claim that many things done there follow the pattern you mention. It can be partly explained by the stupidity of the orders loaded down from on high.
For example, fifth year students here have a choice whether to write a diploma paper or to have a final exam (aka state exam). Once they choose it can't be revoked, i.e. they can't be pretending to be writing something for close on a year and then in May (when they see they can't make it by the deadline) announce they opt for the final. Normally, they are ready to make a choice as late as October.
However, the workload of each professor (on which the yearly salary depends) has to be determined in late August when no one knows how many students will want to write the paper (perhaps, no one will).
Seeing such (and many other) discrepancies makes the teaching stuff practise formal approaches where they think the University powers-that-be are out of touch with reality.


Sorry to rock your boat, but let me rephrase my thinking... What mathematical EXCELLENT MINDS have women produced?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofia_Kovalevskaya
Never heard of her?


That's why we are so moderate now, it only took us two World Wars and a Cold War to find our middle. We kept some of the extremes of course, but the mainstream here is rather centrist as you can see by the "we have to find a common solution"-chancellor from a relatively centrist part in a coalition with the most centrist party from the other side that we keep reelecting.

Conclusion: Anlgoguys, you should start a war or two to get the meaning of things and learn moderation. The Ukraine crisis seems a good chance to start at least one.

[Greyblades]

Would you prefer that over just educating everyone or would you rather tell the rape victims that they should have watched their backs better and that you won't do anything about the ongoing rape cases? I would prefer that the moral guardians would get thier message across without subjecting the majority of the students who are already not going to comit or abet rape to something that boarders on indoctrination. I also wish that the very people who scream bloody murder when they are unintentionally insulted wouldn't impose this level of insulting condescention upon others.

[Husar]

I would prefer that the moral guardians would get thier message across without subjecting the majority of the students who are already not going to comit or abet rape to something that boarders on indoctrination. I also wish that the very people who scream bloody murder when they are unintentionally insulted wouldn't impose this level of insulting condescention upon others.

I was trying to get some constructive criticism out of you, but all you give me are complaints without solutions.
How would you go about preventing rape on campus?

[Gilrandir]

How would you go about preventing rape on campus?
Separate campuses for males and females and no admission of the opposite sex.

[Greyblades]

How would you go about preventing rape on campus?

By realizing that in the field of crime aside from legalization there is no final solution, only management.

Let the people who are experts on the subject do thier work, put oversight on them if you must but make sure they are staffed by experts as well, and dont turn to people with agendas every time the police fail to give you a 0% occurance rating.


Separate campuses for males and females and no admission of the opposite sex.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiSmaPjuNks

[Husar]

By realizing that in the field of crime aside from legalization there is no final solution, only management.

Let the people who are experts on the subject do thier work, put oversight on them if you must but make sure they are staffed by experts as well, and dont turn to people with agendas every time the police fail to give you a 0% occurance rating.

People without agendas? Does that mean we need robots? I thought most of these things are already handled by experts, the experts in washington decided that universities need to be forced to do something to manage sexual violence and the experts at cal state decided this game/quiz is what they should do to manage the sexual violence. Either your points are already fulfilled or your solution was as vague as a politician's speech.

[Greyblades]

People without agendas? Does that mean we need robots? I thought most of these things are already handled by experts, the experts in washington decided that universities need to be forced to do something to manage sexual violence and the experts at cal state decided this game/quiz is what they should do to manage the sexual violence. Either your points are already fulfilled or your solution was as vague as a politician's speech.
...Wait, why am I on trial, the argument's on how the registration game is counterproductive, I dont need to provide an alternative to establish that.

[Sir Moody]

...Wait, why am I on trial, the argument's on how the registration game is counterproductive, I dont need to provide an alternative to establish that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campus_rape

Rape among collage aged women is far higher than the national average although interestingly non-enrolled Women of that age are more likely to be raped.

The age of their attackers however is collage aged men so if you want to reduce it they are the group to target with education.

[Greyblades]

Aye I saw that, it's why I edited out my question of statistics.

Again, why do I have to provide an alternative to establish this is a bad method?

[Husar]

...Ok then, Lets do this the long way and figure this out.

Foundation: You say there is a rape problem in campuses, I say there isnt, burden of proof is on the accuser; provide proof that rape on campus is elevated compared to the rest of society.

Why would I have to? There is still a rape problem on campuses even if it is not elevated because there is a rape problem everywhere.
But even so:

Is it so hard to google that and find the first expert piece on it?

http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/1


"Women ages 16 to 24 experience rape at rates four times higher than the assault rate of all women,"2 making the college (and high school) years the most vulnerable for women. College women are more at risk for rape and other forms of sexual assault than women the same age but not in college.3 It is estimated that almost 25 percent of college women have been victims of rape or attempted rape since the age of 14.4

http://www.safercampus.org/blog/2009/11/facts-about-college-sexual-assault/


The National Crime Victimization Survey found that about 3% of college women are raped each academic year,[2] usually by someone they know. The National College Women Sexual Victimization study estimates about 20 to 25% of college women are victims of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault during their college years.[3]

College students, because of their age, are a group at high risk for sexual assault, and some researchers believe that college women are more vulnerable than their nonstudent peers.[4] The National Crime Victimization Survey found no statistical differences in rape and sexual assault rates between women at college and women of the same age who are not students.[5] The finding of higher risk is based on the National College Women Sexual Victimization survey, which used a different methodology.[6]

“Women ages 16 to 24 experience rape at rates four times higher than the assault rate of all women,”[7] making the college (and high school) years the most vulnerable forwomen.[8]

[...]

Private colleges and major universities have higher rates than the national average, while religiously affiliated institutions have lower than average rates.[15] Students at two-year institutions (15.6%) were more likely than those at four-year institutions (11.1%)
to report they had been forced during their lifetime to have sexual intercourse.

I'd say a rate estimated between 20% and 25% constitutes a serious problem, that it is just as bad outside campuses does not mean it should not be prevented on campuses, more likely such programs should be extended to other parts of life, like make it mandatory to get a passport/driver's license or introduce courses at schools.

[Greyblades]

Yes, I realized what a stupid idea going down that path was.

[Husar]

Still waiting for a reason why this game isn't an obtrusive insult to the intelligence of the student body that will make no real difference because it's sole purpose seems to be telling you what you should say and think.

Because unfortunately there seem to be students who do not know how to behave, or where is the rape rate coming from?
And for those who do already know this, this quiz should be a breeze, no? Some jobs require you to prove that you have no criminal record, isn't that also insulting the intelligence/violating the dignity of upstanding citizens who have never done something wrong? If someone does not know that calling another guy a "pussy" in a serious way is an attempt to guilt them into doing something through the use of a sexist term, then this quiz is surely not an insult of their intelligence. For everyone else, that part should be simple and the quiz should not be a huge problem. If it is not a huge problem to solve, how is it insulting to your intelligence? Or are you saying that the creators expect you to fail a relatively simple quiz?

Whether the quiz can actually successfully turn a potential rapist into a harmless guy is a different question, but we're talking about its intended purpose here I assume.

[Greyblades]

Because unfortunately there seem to be students who do not know how to behave, or where is the rape rate coming from?
And for those who do already know this, this quiz should be a breeze, no?
If someone does not know that calling another guy a "pussy" in a serious way is an attempt to guilt them into doing something through the use of a sexist term, then this quiz is surely not an insult of their intelligence.
For everyone else, that part should be simple and the quiz should not be a huge problem. If it is not a huge problem to solve, how is it insulting to your intelligence? Or are you saying that the creators expect you to fail a relatively simple quiz?
The insult to intelligence is the implication that the students dont know that already and need to be taught. Lumping everyone together judging them by thier lowest members and treating them accordingly hardly goes down well among anyone on the recieving end.

Now if it as merely a quiz you could argue it being a minor hiccup; it would have the same implications of assumed guilt but it would be somewhat ignorable, however you have to go through the game before you get to the quiz.

Three and a half hours of bad voice acting, shoddy writing and jerky unnatural animation, all unskippable, telling the player things they likely already knows in a most condesending manner. If they fail a segment they have to start it over and if they fail the quiz by accident you have to restart the game from the beginning.

No, it's not a breeze, the only thing keeping it from being orwell-ian is that the student can give up at any time but he would have to give up the university course as well.

See here's the thing I would oppose it if it was just the quiz part in principle, part in the fear that if it was allowed to propagate they would start doing worse. Slippery slope falacy? Maybe. But here it wasnt a slip, they jumped right into the deep end.

As for the intended purpose, well, I dont see this affecting anything aside from driving students to seek education elsewhere.

[Montmorency]

The insult to intelligence is the implication that the students dont know that already and need to be taught.

But that's literally the fundament of all feminist philosophy...

It's not a matter of teaching "Don't rape" - it's more like "everything you think when it comes to rape is wrong".

The way you criticize feminism, Greyblades, is in fact the precise thing that feminism has been built to account for.

[Greyblades]

All feminist philosophy?

Feminism began as, and was supposed to stay, merely as a subset of egalitariansm, equlity under the law for women, equal oppertunities, equal treatment.

Equal treatment, not special adheirance.

I am quite sick of how it is allowed to be used now. That I can be deemed as sexist, implying I dont know right from wrong, merely because I wont listen to every stupid little thing someone thinks I should and shouldnt do, should and shouldn't think, not because what I am told is is right but because it's said under the banner of feminism.

Too often the accusations of being sexist and offensive is used to shut people up because they wont say what others want them to, to hide from legitimate criticism, to punish people for having an opinion that doenst fall in line...

...

...Ah crap, I have to apologise to RVG for getting pissed over his rape joke a few years ago.

I still maintain it wasnt funny because it wasnt a good joke, but I was being a jackass for making a fuss out of what was in reality nothing.

Also:
"everything you think when it comes to rape is wrong". Including the fact that I think rape is wrong?

I can accept being taught to respect women's choices and opinions to the same extent as men, most people these days would accept it on it's own because it makes sense. But holding someone's education at ransom until they read a manifesto and sign a waver? Not only does it piss people off you come off just as demanding and insecure as your political opposites.

[Ironside]

And why?

Sorry to rock your boat, but let me rephrase my thinking... What mathematical EXCELLENT MINDS have women produced?

Don't get me wrong, there are some women comparable in some fields. But that's the exception, not the rule.

MY PROBLEM is when universities start to teach 50/50 on women/men gender based when they teach mathematical history, for political reasons, instead of teaching what great minds brought mathematics forwards and why - regardless of sex.

50/50 in math would be a bit much, but having some are worth it. I mean, in history you have a few legendaries, those you have to have on the topic. But the rest is "mere olympic gold medalists". Whatever method you'll use will be political (the local nationality is a classic here), since you have to be selective.
Edit: As an example, give me the ten top conquerors in history.

Then it's better to focus on people that can be an inspiration for half the population and can be helpful to establish for the men that women can also do well in the field (women in men's field are often faced with hostility, that drops a lot after men gets used to women in the field).

As for mathematical EXCELLENT MINDS, you have Sofia Kovalevskaja (as mentioned), Ada Byron and Marie-Sophie Germain. That computer programmers were a mostly female profession once upon a time is nice touch, considering how male dominated it is nowadays. It's also a functional tie in for hostorical mathematics that are relevant to today.


All feminist philosophy?

Feminism began as, and was supposed to stay, merely as a subset of egalitariansm, equlity under the law.

I am quite sick of how it is being used now. The implication that I can be deemed as not knowing right from wrong merely because I wont listen to every stupid little thing a thinks I should and shouldnt do, should and shouldn't think just because it's said by a self declared feminist... it sickens me what the name has become to represent.

...I have to apologise to RVG for getting pissed over his rape joke a few years ago, I still maintain it wasnt funny but I was being a jackass for making a thing out of what was basically nothing.

Take the number 20%-25% of the women getting sexually assaulted or raped.

How many of the aggressor guys do you think perceive themselves as rapists or sexual assaulter? Not many. Why? It's simple. If you internalise that you're only a rapist if you use force, drugs or assault, then you can do anything less than that and be in the clear.
I mean, it's still don't be dick, but it still surprisingly often people don't notice that they are one.

As for the course, it's sloppily done, but it's still a mandatory course. That means that it has a failure state and a test on if you've gotten the information the course holders want you to have gotten.
If you fail a course, you have to spend the time doing a full re-exam.

I would say having that as the basis for a discussion material for a few classes afterwards would probably be the best, but it takes more time from everyone.

[Greyblades]

Take the number 20%-25% of the women getting sexually assaulted or raped.
3% raped a year, 20-25% of all sexually assaulted based on a survey from the year 2000. sexual assault is rather a vague term, and I would be interested to see what the percentage of these are repeat crimes as I somewhat doubt that there is a correspondingly high percentage of males who are rapers/sexual assaulters in the student body.


As for the course, it's sloppily done, but it's still a mandatory course. That means that it has a failure state and a test on if you've gotten the information the course holders want you to have gotten.
If you fail a course, you have to spend the time doing a full re-exam.

I would say having that as the basis for a discussion material for a few classes afterwards would probably be the best, but it takes more time from everyone.

A course that is appaling in quality, costly in time, insulting in it's assumptions, largely unnecissary for most and, above all, not related to the courses they signed up for.

[Greyblades]

Incidentally I looked at the sources Husar uses, they both get thier 20%-25% statistics from this (http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/PDFs/182369.pdf) report published in the year 2000 and conducted in 1997.

Also I looked at the endnotes of http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/1 and none of the sources are from before 2000.
The other one: http://www.safercampus.org/blog/2009/11/facts-about-college-sexual-assault/#_ftn3 doesnt have any from beyond 2005.

I dont suppose you could get some more up to date sources? I find it hard to believe that those statistics are the same as they were 10+ years ago.

[Husar]

Well, there are numbers of reports: http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/local/sex-offenses-on-us-college-campuses/1077/

But then those are the reported crimes. Reports are apparently rising, but I wouldn't take those numbers as very representative of what really happens unless you actually believe at the universities at the lower end of the list there has never been a single case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/sex-offense-statistics-show-us-college-reports-are-rising/2014/07/01/982ecf32-0137-11e4-b8ff-89afd3fad6bd_story.html

Also this: http://news.ku.edu/2014/03/03/law-professor-more-1-million-rapes-unreported-official-us-crime-statistics

Oh and here's a recent statistic for England, with estimates apparently made by the government's office for statistics or so: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/11/male-female-rape-statistics-graphic


The estimate of 78,000 rapes per year was calculated using data from the Crime Survey for England and Wales, now administered by the Office for National Statistics.

[Montmorency]

Greyblades, the beast that pursues the hunter to the trap and then leaps over the trap to beset the hunter has a fighting chance.

The beast that simply strides directly into the trap with no inkling dies a fool's death and becomes the hunter's trophy.

You cannot defeat an argument by belting the very points it was specifically designed to defeat. You would do better to start by examining the presuppositions underlying it.

[Greyblades]

...Ok then. Lets take down one of the big presuppositions: rape on campus.


Well, there are numbers of reports: http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/pag...campuses/1077/

But then those are the reported crimes. Reports are apparently rising, but I wouldn't take those numbers as very representative of what really happens unless you actually believe at the universities at the lower end of the list there has never been a single case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...6bd_story.html

Also this: http://news.ku.edu/2014/03/03/law-pr...ime-statistics

Oh and here's a recent statistic for England, with estimates apparently made by the government's office for statistics or so: http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...istics-graphic
Ah, unconfirmed reports, a foreign country's estimates and a professor's estimate. No solid stats. Though I did have a good chuckle at the second link's comment section.

I on the other hand have the Female Victims of Sexual Violence, 1994-2010 Report by the department of justice (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf), telling us there was a general downward trend in sexual offenses in the USA between 1994 and 2010.

Secondly I have the Violent Victimization of College Students, 1995-2002 Report by the department of justice (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vvcs02.pdf), Which tells us the student experience of violent crimes has shared this downward trend.

Also of note is the part where it is stated: "Except for rape/sexual assault, average annual rates were lower for students than for nonstudents for each type of violent crime measured (robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault). Rates of rape/sexual assault for the two groups did not differ statistically."
This tells us that the sexual assault rates of students and non students did not differ significantly.

Now this is obviously out of date, however it tells us that in the last decade and a half there has been a gradual decline at the very least between 1995 and 2002.
Unless there is evidence of a divergeance between 2002 and 2010 it is reasonable to assume that the student rate remained the same as the national rate.
Simultaniously unless there is evidence of an upswing between 2010 and now it is also reasonable to assume that the decrease has stayed steady to this day.

Thus, until you provide evidence of those divergeances and upswings, I conclude that there is no reason to think there is a rape problem/crisis/epidemic occuring among american students.
Unless the idea that rape is happening at all has only happened to become problem/crisis/epidemic-worthy in the last 5 or so years, even then it seems to be a national problem not a student one.

As such there is no reason for this appaling in quality, costly in time, insulting in it's assumptions, utterly unnecissary registration game that is not related to the courses they signed up for, to exist let alone be forced upon the students of america.

[Husar]

...Ok then. Lets take down one of the big presuppositions: rape on campus.


Ah, unconfirmed reports, a foreign country's estimates and a professor's estimate. No solid stats. Though I did have a good chuckle at the second link's comment section.

I on the other hand have the Female Victims of Sexual Violence, 1994-2010 Report by the department of justice (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf), telling us there was a general downward trend in sexual offenses in the USA between 1994 and 2010.

Secondly I have the Violent Victimization of College Students, 1995-2002 Report by the department of justice (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vvcs02.pdf), Which tells us the student experience of violent crimes has shared this downward trend.

Seriously?


The data in this report were drawn from the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ (BJS) National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). The NCVS collects information on nonfatal crimes reported and not reported to the police from a nationally representative sample of persons age 12 or older who live in U.S. households. Persons are interviewed every 6 months over 3 years with the first interview conducted in person and follow-up interviews conducted either in person or by phone.

Not necessarily the conditions for all rape victims to come out.
And the glee in your post (before I quoted and you apprently edited it yet again...) is quite disturbing.
What's also disturbing is that you call England/Wales a foreign country when your location says UK, but whatever floats your boat.


Also of note is the part where it is stated: "Except for rape/sexual assault, average annual rates were lower for students than for nonstudents for each type of violent crime measured (robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault). Rates of rape/sexual assault for the two groups did not differ statistically."
This tells us that the sexual assault rates of students and non students did not differ significantly.

Oh now you're really enjoying this "victory", aren't you? If you really want to party, read my quotes from post #35 again where this was already mentioned, but don't let this disturb you in thinking that I'm stupid and had no idea, seems to be more fun for you that way.


Now this is obviously out of date, however it tells us that in the last decade and a half there has been a gradual decline at the very least between 1995 and 2002.
Unless there is evidence of a divergeance between 2002 and 2010 it is reasonable to assume that the student rate remained the same as the national rate.
Simultaniously unless there is evidence of an upswing between 2010 and now it is also reasonable to assume that the decrease has stayed steady to this day.

So rape is essentially a problem that goes away all by itself?


Thus, until you provide evidence of those divergeances and upswings, I conclude that there is no reason to think there is a rape problem/crisis/epidemic occuring among american students.
Unless the idea that rape is happening at all has only happened to become problem/crisis/epidemic-worthy in the last 5 or so years, even then it seems to be a national problem not a student one.

Yeah, because I haven't said this course should be spread further than just colleges before.


As such there is no reason for this appaling in quality, costly in time, insulting in it's assumptions, utterly unnecissary registration game that is not related to the courses they signed up for, to exist let alone be forced upon the students of america.

Yeah, because I haven't explained why that assumption is wrong before.
Have you been reset to post #1 in some way or what happened to the rest of the discussion in your mind?

[Fragony]

Gawd I hate pushy feminists

[Greyblades]

you call England/Wales a foreign country when your location says UK,
Foreign country to an american campus.


read my quotes from post #35 again where this was already mentionedQuotes based off information that is at minimum 10 years out of date and whose statistics shows no multi year trend that could be construed as continuing to the present day, thus we have no reason to believe it is still relevant.


So rape is essentially a problem that goes away all by itself?Considering I said:


By realizing that in the field of crime aside from legalization there is no final solution, only management.

Let the people who are experts on the subject do thier work, put oversight on them if you must but make sure they are staffed by experts as well, and dont turn to people with agendas every time the police fail to give you a 0% occurance rating.
I dont see why you would believe I think that.


Yeah, because I haven't explained why that assumption is wrong before.
I fear I am becoming somewhat blind, would you care to point out where you proved this assumption is wrong?


Burden of proof is on the accuser. Until you provide proof of your own there is no solid reason to believe there is a rape problem. Even if you disprove the trend established in my sources you still need proof.

So I say again by the evidence provided there is no reason for this appaling in quality, costly in time, insulting in it's assumptions, utterly unnecissary registration game that is not related to the courses they signed up for, to exist let alone be forced upon the students of america.

[Husar]

Foreign country to an american campus.

I posted it to show that even government statisticians believe rape to be underreported.


Quotes based off information that is at minimum 10 years out of date and whose statistics shows no multi year trend that could be construed as continuing to the present day, thus we have no reason to believe it is still relevant.

The professor I linked showed a trend of underreporting by police over many years, but you dismissed that, your own several years study uses absolute numbers based on what victims are willing to admit in face-to-face interviews. The point being that there are not all that many reliable numbers out there.


Mostly, yes, because I realized all the discussion was pointless. All the assumptions rest on the idea that rape prevention to this intrusive degree is necissary because there is a sudden rape problem in american campuses.

No, the point is that rape is an ongoing problem and maybe more could be done to stop it other than putting your hands into your pocket and saying "oh well, **** happens" when yet another person was violated.


Burden of proof is on the accuser. Until you prove that there is, even if you disprove the trend established in my sources, there is no solid reason to believe there is a rape problem.

The trend in your sources goes steadily downwards, yet you do not believe rape will disappear, therefore you do not seem to believe in the continuity of that trend yourself.
I also found some rather recent data: info.everfi.com/rs/everfi/images/EverFiInsightReportWinter2015.pdf


These stats on self-reported sexual victimization while in college are higher than the recent rates released by the Justice Department2(6.1 per 1000 female students 18-24),but lower than the oft-cited “1 in 5” statistic reported in The Campus Sexual Assault Study3 (14% of female students age 18-25 report being victimized since starting school). The unique value of this analysis comes not only from the vast sample size, but also from the focus on victimization during the first months following matriculation onto campus.

The report also supports my previously stated view that raising awareness and training all students to deal with sexual assault situations could increase the security of everyone on campus:


This promising finding indicates that students were becoming more aware that positive bystander behavior is normative, acceptable, and encouraged on their campuses, thus reducing social barriers they may face in situations where they can step in and make a difference4.
[...]
We hope to inform institutions so that they may develop focused approaches to address their specific campus needs and targeted, effective efforts to educate and support students regarding sexual assualt and bystander intervention.


So, would you care to point out where you proves this assumption is wrong?

I explained why the assumption is wrong that this is insulting peoples' intelligence. The entire game/quiz can serve more purposes than just stop people from raping others, it can also reinforce the existing views of well-behaved students and make them more likely to intervene if they find that a dangerous situation is developing. You're taking a completely one-dimensional approach to this and your claims are not substantiated at all.
So to say it in your words, if you accuse the game to insult peoples' intelligence, the burden of proof is on you to say why and how it supposedly does this and why and how it would do more harm than good. I have already explained why I think it does not.

[Greyblades]

Note to self, remove attitude from reply before submitting the post.


I posted it to show that even government statisticians believe rape to be underreported.

The professor I linked showed a trend of underreporting by police over many years, but you dismissed that, your own several years study uses absolute numbers based on what victims are willing to admit in face-to-face interviews. The point being that there are not all that many reliable numbers out there. Alternatively the professor is wrong, lying, or being misrepresented. Seeing as the writer of the article did not provide the sources that the professor used to gain those conclusions we would have to go out of our way to find them to determine if he is correct, which, as the presenter of him as evidence, would be your job.



No, the point is that rape is an ongoing problem and maybe more could be done to stop it other than putting your hands into your pocket and saying "oh well, **** happens" when yet another person was violated.I have statistics that say that it was on the decline in 2005, another stat that indicates it continued to at least 2010 and none that indicate the decline has stopped or reversed by 2015. Disputing either of them would merely weaken not disprove my conclusion.

That being: I see no foundation for the belief that the police are incapable of dealing with the situation of rape on college campuses to the extent as to require third parties to produce let alone impose such shoddy propaganda.

Hrm, I suppose it's called "public relations produced suppliments" these days, I'm starting to see what they mean by "the english language has been declawed"



The trend in your sources goes steadily downwards, yet you do not believe rape will disappear, therefore you do not seem to believe in the continuity of that trend yourself.
I also found some rather recent data: info.everfi.com/rs/everfi/images/EverFiInsightReportWinter2015.pdf
...I'm not sure what I am looking at.

A survey given out to the entire student body, but only the freshmen were required to partake in the first set (which was tajen by 530,000 students) at the start of the year and comprised 63% of the ones taken, the second set was optional and admissioned 4-6 weeks later with only a 53% return rate(totaling 281,000 usable results, rounded up).

There's no compilation of what the survey questions were, the only question that we see is this:

Students were asked if they had ever “been pressured or forced into sexual contact without their consent” with “Yes, before I arrived on campus”, “Yes, after I arrived on campus”, and “Yes, before and after I arrived on campus” as separate response options.
It mention's three options, none of which are "no I havent been sexually assaulted", but I assume there is one as the table of results dont add up to 100 percent.

I suppose that the question could be the entire survey yet it says
Based on the full pre-course sample of attitudinal and behavioral responses, students were found to fall into either a Healthy profile (65%) or an Unhealthy profile (35%).

In addition to having substantially less positive responses to survey questions, students in the Unhealthy profile were more likely to indicate having pressured or forced someone into sexual contact without their explicit consent. These students also tend to engage in more high-risk alcohol use.
I dont see on the report what these questions were or and how they decided which were healthy or unhealthy beyond the conclusions they made.

And the table:
15298

It's split between male and female and segmented along school year, ethnicity, student type, each having a before and after and it shows that in all cases it shows that the before dwarfs the after. There's no indication of which set it each statment is from, maybe it's all compiled?

Frankly, I have no idea how the report came to these conclusions with so little evidence shown.


The report also supports my previously stated view that raising awareness and training all students to deal with sexual assault situations could increase the security of everyone on campus:
Your view is stated in this report, but not proven.

All that seems to be probable from the evidence provided is that out of an estimated (66% freshmen of the whole 530000 students equals 369600, multiplied by the 5 presented catagories of university year)=1,848,000, a sample of 281,000 students have an admittal rate (that being admitting to suffering sexual violence after starting thier university year) at an average of (combined "after" of 117 divided by the number of imdividual "after" of 52) =2.25%.

If we take that as an accurate indication of the whole, which I am highly averse to doing so due to lack of information, we can conclude that 2.25% of the student body were willing to admit to being sexually assaulted in college during the 4-6 week period. A massive departure from the previously presented 1 in 5 of all female studenst are sexually assaulted, and a small legitimising of the assumption that there was a fall between 1997 and now.

Montmorency you're more statistically inclined, how would you evaluate the report?


I explained why the assumption is wrong that this is insulting peoples' intelligence. The entire game/quiz can serve more purposes than just stop people from raping others, it can also reinforce the existing views of well-behaved students and make them more likely to intervene if they find that a dangerous situation is developing. You're taking a completely one-dimensional approach to this and your claims are not substantiated at all.
So to say it in your words, if you accuse the game to insult peoples' intelligence, the burden of proof is on you to say why and how it supposedly does this and why and how it would do more harm than good. I have already explained why I think it does not.
The argument is of it's need, my opinion is irrelevant and your proof insufficient to prove that the police methods already used are ineffective enough to warrant introducing further methods from third parties.

[Husar]

Alternatively the professor is wrong, lying, or being misrepresented. Seeing as the writer of the article did not provide the sources that the professor used to gain those conclusions we would have to go out of our way to find them to determine if he is correct, which, as the presenter of him as evidence, would be your job.

And maybe the government is lying in the reports that show a decline in cases.
Your insinuation that I should check all FBI reports myself and spend several months crunching the data is quite hilarious.
If you want to accuse the professor of lying, the burden of proof is on you, remember?


I dont see on the report what these questions were or and how they decided which were healthy or unhealthy beyond the conclusions they made.

You wanted professionals to do the jopb on campuses with professional oversight and now you criticize the work of all the professionals who have apparently tried to investigate the issue.


And the table:
[table]

It's split between male and female and segmented along school year, ethnicity, student type, each having a before and after and it shows that in all cases it shows that the before dwarfs the after. There's no indication of which set it each statment is from, maybe it's all compiled?

Frankly, I have no idea how the report came to these conclusions with so little evidence shown.

Since the before number increases from freshman to graduate for the most part, it might just indicate the increase of cases on campuses.


Your view is stated in this report, but not proven.

I said it supports my view, not that it proves anything.


All that seems to be probable from the evidence provided is that out of an estimated (66% freshmen of the whole 530000 students equals 369600, multiplied by the 5 presented catagories of university year)=1,848,000, a sample of 281,000 students have an admittal rate (that being admitting to suffering sexual violence after starting thier university year) at an average of (combined "after" of 117 divided by the number of imdividual "after" of 52) =2.25%.

If we take that as an accurate indication of the whole, which I am highly averse to doing so due to lack of information, we can conclude that 2.25% of the student body were willing to admit to being sexually assaulted in college during the 4-6 week period. A massive departure from the previously presented 1 in 5 of all female studenst are sexually assaulted, and a small legitimising of the assumption that there was a fall between 1997 and now.

I'm not sure what you calculated there but it cannot be correct:

Our data suggest that nearly 1 in every 30 first-year female students have indicated being victimized before taking their first midterm exam.

One in 30 is already 3.3% and that's only before the midterms. They also say it's lower than the 14% of the other report.


The argument is of it's need, my opinion is irrelevant and your proof insufficient to prove that the police methods already used are ineffective enough to warrant introducing further methods from third parties.

Oh, you want ineffective police measures: http://www.ccasa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/A-Deficiency-in-Addressing-Campus-Sexual-Assault.pdf


The scourge of sexual assault continues to afflict university campuses across the nation. Though the vast majority of victims are female, women are generally woefully underrepresented in campus law enforcement agencies. We do not argue, however, that the ranks of women in theseagencies should be increased simply for the sake of attaining a more demographically reflective police force as an end in itself. Rather, we assert that a demonstrableconnection exists between the disproportionately low number of women among campus police and the troublingly low reporting rates for sexual assault, and that these chronically low rates in turn severely impair universities’ ability to grapple with this crime.

[Greyblades]

And maybe the government is lying in the reports that show a decline in cases.
Your insinuation that I should check all FBI reports myself and spend several months crunching the data is quite hilarious.
If you want to accuse the professor of lying, the burden of proof is on you, remember?
Who do you trust? The government gave you a detailed description of what it did to come to it's conclusions and gave us summaries of the evidence it gathered for us to check if we wish, he hasnt provided any beyond "The guy saying it is a professor".


You wanted professionals to do the jopb on campuses with professional oversight and now you criticize the work of all the professionals who have apparently tried to investigate the issue. Well, you're going to have to prove that this is professional as it's lack of transparancy indicates it is isnt.


Since the before number increases from freshman to graduate for the most part, it might just indicate the increase of cases on campuses. How did you come to that conclusion? From the data it provided or just because it said it?


I said it supports my view, not that it proves anything. I got that impression. Any idea where the data it is based off is or can I dismiss this completely?


I'm not sure what you calculated there but it cannot be correct: I calculated the after's mean (average). The before includes thier entire life before they arrived on campus, the after includes only after they joined the university. Check for yourself.


One in 30 is already 3.3% and that's only before the midterms. They also say it's lower than the 14% of the other report.They say many things, but they provide nothing to support it.


Oh, you want ineffective police measures: http://www.ccasa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/A-Deficiency-in-Addressing-Campus-Sexual-Assault.pdf

Hmm...

According to research, nearly one in five women (18.3%) and one in seventy-one men (1.4%) have been raped.12

There's that 1 in 5 again.

Where does it get that number from...

12 D.KELLY WEISBERG,DOMESTIC VIOLENCE:LEGAL AND SOCIAL REALITY 30 (2012)

Does that mean this:http://www.amazon.com/Domestic-Violence-Social-Reality-Casebook/dp/0735508631

Well that's $200 of unhelpful.

[Husar]

Who do you trust? The government gave you a detailed description of what it did to come to it's conclusions and gave us summaries of the evidence it gathered for us to check if we wish, he hasnt provided any beyond "The guy saying it is a professor".

The method is described and the results summarized, there might be more in the magazine where it was originally published but I wouldn't know how to get that.


Well, you're going to have to prove that this is professional as it's lack of transparancy indicates it is isnt. [...]
How did you come to that conclusion? From the data it provided or just because it said it? [...]
I got that impression. Any idea where the data it is based off is or can I dismiss this completely?

You can dismiss this completely and believe that your government report is the absolute certain truth in numbers because it is so transparent.


I calculated the after's mean (average). The before includes thier entire life before they arrived on campus, the after includes only after they joined the university. Check for yourself.

Yes, one more reason to make people play the game even before college.


Well that's $200 of unhelpful.

Indeed, nothing we can do.

[Greyblades]

The method is described and the results summarized, there might be more in the magazine where it was originally published but I wouldn't know how to get that. Then please, point out in the source you gave where the professor said what the method was, what the results were and how he came to his conclusions:

http://news.ku.edu/2014/03/03/law-professor-more-1-million-rapes-unreported-official-us-crime-statistics



You can dismiss this completely and believe that your government report is the absolute certain truth in numbers because it is so transparent. Never said it was absolute truth, but much more convincing than a leaflet that doesnt even detail the contents of a survey, give all the results or how the results corroberate the conclusions.




Yes, one more reason to make people play the game even before college. And what is that reason?



Indeed, nothing we can do.And because it's base assumption remains unproven we cannot take it's conclusions as fact.

[Husar]

Then please, point out in the source you gave where the professor said what the method was, what the results were and how he came to his conclusions:

http://news.ku.edu/2014/03/03/law-professor-more-1-million-rapes-unreported-official-us-crime-statistics




Two separate trends have to be isolated and removed from the data
from police departments to effectively identify jurisdictions that likely
undercounted rape complaints. First, rape statistics have to be compared
with some other variable that would not be prone to police manipulation.
Otherwise, one might conclude that a very safe city is gaming its numbers
because of an unusually low rate of rape when, in reality, there is simply less
crime in that city. To that end, murder rates are used for each jurisdiction as
a baseline because such rates are not easily manipulated and are highly
correlated with rape rates. Second, individual city crime rates need to be
separated from national trends. During the study period, violent crime rates
were falling across the nation due to an array of factors (which were certain
to be unobserved variables). 158 Using each city’s variation from yearly
national crime rates was the means used to resolve that difficulty.


In total, at least 46 police departments responsible for populations
of at least 100,000 persons have substantial statistical irregularities in their
rape data indicating significant undercounting during the study period of
1995 to 2012.
[...]
More disconcertingly, the number of cities undercounting appears
to be on the rise. Figure 15 demonstrates that the number of undercounting
cities has risen by an astonishing 61% during the study period.


Difference Percentage Rate =
Percentage Murder Rate – Percentage Rape Rate

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2404424



Never said it was absolute truth, but much more convincing than a leaflet that doesnt even detail the contents of a survey, give all the results or how the results corroberate the conclusions.

Well, now you know.


And what is that reason?

That more than 10% of students were already sexually assaulted before college.


And because it's base assumption remains unproven we cannot take it's conclusions as fact.

Exactly, just like the shady research methods of your government study make it completely useless.
It's too bad that we are debating the entire time and yet we have absolutely no reliable data, the rape rate could really be anywhere between 0% and 100%. I think I'm going to cry in a corner and leave this thread. :shrug:

[Greyblades]

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2404424Better, next time lead with the dissertation and dont expect people to swallow an article on the weight of the man's degree, it would save us a lot of time.

Ah here we go:
The core element of the data police departments supply to the FBI is the total reported incidents of select criminal offenses (“Index Crimes”).52 Since the program’s inception, the FBI has included the crime of rape as one of the eight Index Crimes for which police departments could submit data.53

In addition to a count of reported crimes, the FBI annually issues the rate of crime nationally and for each jurisdiction using this basic formula: Crime Rate = (Reported Crimes/Population) x 100,000 Thus, the crime rate is defined as the number of reported criminal incidents for every 100,000 people.54 For the study period, and since the UCR’s inception, its narrow
definition of “rape” required: “carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.”55 By employing the phrase “carnal knowledge,” that definition only includes a man vaginally
penetrating a woman with his penis, not oral or anal penetration.56 And the FBI acknowledged that: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions

Thus I conceed that the numbers were wrong.

However the change in the FBI definition does not mean that there is an actual increase in rape, they were going on regardless of the diminished ability to record them. We do not know if rape is on the increase or declining.

Well, now you know.
Know what? One side getting disproven doesnt make the opposite automatically right, your leaflet's still witholding too much information to be useful.


That more than 10% of students were already sexually assaulted before college.And? The purpose was to determine the degree that rape occurs in college, that they said they were assaulted before they started college that year is rather irrelevent because there is no way of differentiating whether those previous assaults were in a previous college year or if they happened before they started college.
The question did not specify if the assaults were on campus and now the results are contaminated by the students who said they were assaulted before college and reffering to assaults done any time between birth and starting higher education, which are irrelevant to the report's goal of determining teh rape rates among students.


Exactly, just like the shady research methods of your government study make it completely useless.
It's too bad that we are debating the entire time and yet we have absolutely no reliable data, the rape rate could really be anywhere between 0% and 100%. I think I'm going to cry in a corner and leave this thread. :shrug: And just as you were actually making progress. Your loss.

[Husar]

Better, next time lead with the dissertation and dont expect people to swallow an article on the weight of the man's degree, it would save us a lot of time.
[...]
And just as you were actually making progress. Your loss.

I don't care about losing or winning anything. You seem to assume that I have unlimited amounts of time to search for sources and read them thoroughly, but I do not. That means that I'm either an idiot or the wrong guy to discuss this any further if you want to make this a highly scientific, number-based discussion as I do not have the time or will to chase sources for you.

[Greyblades]

Then next time instead of merely listening to the people who say what we agree with both of us should consider keeping track of what they use as proof.

Assuming they have any.