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ElmarkOFear
11-07-2000, 07:01
As most of you know, the importance of gaining your opponent's flank should be one of your biggest priorities. Many a strong position can be overcome with a good flanking unit. My question is: What is the exact definition of a flank? How close do you have to be to the enemy to give their army a flanking morale penalty. What angle to the enemy determines if you get the morale penalty for side or rear flank? Also, do some units give you a better penalty to enemy morale than others? I know that in Sid Meier's Gettysburg!, you could tell when you were getting the flank due to the fact that your troops would be close enough to shoot at the enemy, but hand-to-hand combat in Shogun does/cannot give a clue as to when you are close enough. Lastly, does your flank stay affixed on the map to where you started the game, or does it move with the direction of your troops. Please help me!!!! My flank will thank you! Elmarko of Fearful Ways


[This message has been edited by ElmarkOFear (edited 11-07-2000).]

BanzaiZAP
11-07-2000, 08:01
For an in-depth military dissertation on Flanking, you may need a college degree or something, but here's a capsulated Gamer's version as it applies to Shogun:Total War.

Flanks are incredibly important! That being said, I think "flanking" in the battle simulator is done on a per-unit basis. So a single unit of yours can "flank" a single unit of the enemy's, but not be directly associated with the armies overall.

Distance, I'm not sure about, but in slow advances, I've seen troops react to my troop movements at about half-archer range. It may also depend on the number of units/men involved. I don't reccomend getting much closer unles you're comitting to an attack. To get the full Charging bonus (which nicely enhances the Flank bonus) your men need to get up to full speed. About half-archer range will let even cavalry get up a good head of steam.

Orientation: From what I've seen, the "flank" is anywhere behind the front 180-degrees of the facing of the unit. So if the unit is facing towards 12 o'clock, then anything after 3 or before 9 is a flank, and anything close to 6 is attack-from-behind which has an even bigger bonus.

The concept of flanking the whole army, is getting your men to flank one of his wings, then that wing collapses, and you flankers can now threaten the enemy center, etc.

Also, if you havbe an enemy flanked, and they respond by shifting men around, you can attack while they are still shifting - an unorganized unit has more morale penalties! Keeping your enemy disorganized is a major benefit.

The "best" unit to flank with, will obviously depend on what you're up against, but anyone that runs quickly is best, so that you can either A) get into position in time, or B) get the heck out of there if things go wrong. That being said, the best flankers seem to be Monks, Yari Cavalry or Ashigaru, depending on what you face. (Monks vs spears, YC vs. archers, Ashig vs. cavalry) Ashi run faster than spearmen do. You just need to keep an eye on them, as they get nervous when separated from the main army.

Hope this helps! Also hope that others chime in to correct me!

-- B)

longjohn2
11-07-2000, 08:15
For melee purposes each individual soldier to soldier combat is considered seperately. There is no convept of unit flanking in melee.

Morale on the other hand is considered on a unit by unit basis. Again each unit is considered separately. The term flank means side, so a unit suffers a morale penalty if its flank is threatened. A flank is threatened if there is an enemy unit within about 75m of it ( I don't recall the exact distance ) and there is no intervening friendly unit, or friendly unit close enough to protect the flank. If both flanks are threatened the penalty is greater, and greater still if the rear is also threatened.
There is no concept of an army flank. Each unit's flank is considered separately at its current position.

Using friendly units to support the flanks of other units is an important tactic.

Here are couple of diagrams.

AAAAA BBBBB
| |

|
CCCCC

Units A and B are on one side, and C is on the other. Unit C's left flank is threatened by unit A as A is to the left of it, and there is no protection. Unit C's right flank is not threatened because B is not to the right of it. Unit A's left flank is not threatened by C beacuse unit B protects it

Example 2
C
| -C
AAAAA C
|
BBBBB



In this example, unit B's flank is threatened
by unit C, but unit A's flank is still protected by unit B, since unit B could intervence if C tried to attack A in the flank.

Note that a single unit can similtaneously threaten the flanks or rears of many different enemy units.

ElmarkOFear
11-07-2000, 13:36
Thank you LongJohn and Banzai, I appreciate the info. I will try these on the custom battle trainer and see what works best. Take care and thanks again. Elmarko of Fearful Ways

FearedSangsara
11-07-2000, 14:00
hhmm

Ive wondered several times about what constitutes a flank. I have had several times when I would engage a enemy YS unit with a YS unit from the front and then hit the enemy at their side with a No-dachi unit, but it took forever for them to break. It seems to me, in order to really get a good flanking bonus, you need to hit an enemy unit anywhere from one back corner to the other (this is visualizing an enemy unit as a square/rectangle) Obviously, if you hit them directly from behind, they dont last long. But sometimes you dont have the time or the space to get directly behind them. While it is said u get a bonus from hitting them on the side, I find you dont get a NOTICABLE difference unless you hit them from one back corner to the other.

Also, talkin about which unit types are best to flank with, I personaly LOVE no-dachi for flanking for several reasons. 1st- since the last patch, monks had their attack value dropped from 5 to 3, but no-dachi still have a 5 attack rating. That means they kill and they kill fast. 2nd- no-dachi are proned to taking heavy losses. But you attack from the back and you dont get hardly any losses at all until the enemy unit folds and routs, but since they took the charge bonus away from routers, you dont take that heavy of a loss. 3rd-no-dachi run fast! Infact, it has been my experience that they run faster then monks.

So, there's my 2 cents. I was gonna explain how I use this tactic and give out my typical formation and how to use it, but that wouldnt be very smart, now would it? http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/shiny.gif

So, flank with No-dachi and turn your enemies into http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net3/couto.gif


hehe

Sangsara

Methabaron
11-07-2000, 16:37
Mmmm,

Interesting, as far as I know the monks attack factor still is 5 and not 3 as fearedsangsara indicates...

Can anyone confirm, deny or point out where the official info on this could be?

I still have that factor table for each unit that was published some time ago and the attack factor for monks is still 5. I can not find the table in the community site or in the totalwar site, anyone knows where is it?

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

Rob
11-07-2000, 22:33
Yeah, it would be nice if the developers could post a definitive list of stats for units. Or perhaps not... after all, in real war, soldiers do not come with numbers saying precisely how effective they are. Perhaps part of the art of military command is the use of intuitive decisions rather than mathematical calculations?

On the subject of No-Dachi, I am trying to move away from my monk-heavy approach (normally 6 units of WM at least) to a Naginata & No-Dachi combo - the Naginata to engage the enemy and No-Dachi to flank. Flanking has always been the weakest part of my game so I am trying to improve this. In theory, by doing so I am getting a more effective force for less koku, thus allowing me to buy higher honour troops.

DrNo
11-07-2000, 22:56
Rob, what would be even better than a definitive list, is an editor that allows us to customise the numbers.

Not sure about your idea of switching to Naginata and ND. You will need some good firepower to counter any WM that might come your way.

Remember that if you flanking units lose out then your own flanks will be exposed!

Rob
11-08-2000, 04:44
DrNo:
My old Monk-based tactics were to have usally around 6 monk units, divided into two groups, corresponding to left and right. These would engage the enemy basically by launching into H-T-H combat once they got close enough. No style, no finesse, just relying on the fact that WM tend to beat most other units http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif .

I was attempting to replace this with a more specialised and efficient system. Rather than having big groups of monks piling in all at once, I was trying to move towards having specialised troops conducting different roles.

Basically, WM are very effective, but they cost a LOT of koku, so I was trying to find a cheaper alternative that worked just as well or even better.

FearedSangsara
11-08-2000, 06:46
hello,

First, I am not COMPLETLY sure that monks had their atack value dropped to 3, but I am pretty sure. I have heard many mentions of it, and have seen in my own games that, while they are still VERY effective, they dont seem to destroy an enemey the way they used to. However, No-Dachi will destroy an enemy the way monks used to except no-dachi take heavier losses and tend to rout faster then monks.

Second, an editor to customize your own attack values? Maybe in single player. But it's prety obvious what that would lead to in multi-player games.

Rob, I must say man. Im shocked you are in the top 100 if you dont flank. Infact, Im not sure how anybody with a winning record could achieve that without flanking. Unless you beat up newbies all day. Now, I have played you several times and you are pretty good, so thinking what u might be if u start flanking is kinda scary.

It has been my experience that the sole objective any good general should have when ingaging a hand to hand battle is flanking. Because the sole point of the battle is to get 1 enemy unit to rout (we're talkin in hand to hand battles, this doesnt count for missles unless they r engaged in HtH). Because any good general knows if you get 1 enemy unit to rout, the rest are soon to follow. It's the domino theory. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif The only exception to this is if the enemy has units that arent close to the routing units. And the obvious solution to that is, flank them also!!! But typicaly an enemy will have a main line of HtH units engaging your main line of HtH units. So if you flank one of his units on the left, the enemies left side routs. Which spreads towards the center, then out to the right.

The key to a good flanking general is a strong center. If you r trying to flank, that usually means your units will be somewhat spread out. Quite often you will have enemies who focus on the center. If your center cant hold out long enough for your flankers to do their work, the battle is pretty much over. It is very rare that a center will fold and you can recover. For one thing, when your center folds and routs, the domino theory spreads much faster. Instead of starting from the left and working it's way right, it starts in the middle and goes riaght AND left. So what you are usually left with is an exposed general and 1 or 2 flanking units who r behind enemy lines all alone. Never a healthy situation.

So how do you keep your center from folding? I'll leave that up to your imagination. I dont want to give everything away. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

ElmarkOFear
11-08-2000, 07:37
I kind of like you many monks ROB! It gives me a nice warm feeling to see all of them coming my way! Of course, you have to catch me first!! LOL CYA on the battlefield.

Rob
11-09-2000, 03:32
I don't mean that I don't flank at all, but that I'm not as good at it as I would like to be. I guess maybe I am just being a perfectionist http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif . I can remember being badly outflanked on a number of occasions with absolutely devastating results. I don't seem to be able to get such overwhelming effects from my flanking tactics, so I assume I must be doing something wrong. I am thinking of one battle in particular when half of my army was routed in a matter of seconds after being attacked from three directions! Hopefully once I have mastered the tactic I will be totally unbeatable http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Methabaron
11-09-2000, 04:53
Ok, I am not the flanking master expert and my advice is... well, just MY advice.

Use sunscreen. As somebody said, my advice has not been proven yet but sunscreen's good long term effect and protection has been thoroughfully proven by a lot of researchers.

Having said that there are a couple of things you may want to know:

- Strategically, if you really want to flank you will probably have to sacrifice honour by numbers a little... the theory is simple, after all, how on earth you think you are going to flank if you have less units than your opponent !!!, its not impossible but really hard. The first rule of flanking is: don't be flanked!!!

Try to have a maximum number of units... as usual its a gamble.

- Tactically, use fast units (No-dachi, cavalry or ashigaru for exemple) and set them ready to give a round around a bit away from where the hth battle is taking place, if they get engaged before positioning to flank they will get stuck fighting. This will take time, keep the ennemy engaged with units that can hold (naginata, Yari or monks) or/and keep them in "hold position" stance. Hopefully your flanking units will have the time to surround somewhat , remeber that you dont need to get behind... a side flank is very effective too.

-Point Blank range combat. Micro management can work wonders. On a direct confrontation, pay attention at the possible targets in your army. Look where your opponent is charging... take that unit back a little at the right time and let the units to its side flank the incoming attacker when passing through... watch every move to see a weakness, see that enemy no dachi unit entering going unescorted to your right side too deep in your lines??, flank it!!

Whenever you have a 2v1 situation on any given moment, you should be able to pull a flank maneouver if you attack frontally with one to engage and LOCK the enemy unit, then use the other to surround with a bit of patience. As you see, superior numbers help. Doesn't it sound a bit similar to amercan football where the goal is to engage the ennemy with the only goal of leave one man free to run??, same here, your "runner" will be the flanking unit... (dont send it to do a touchdown ok?, just use it to flank)

- Keep at least a couple units if possible in the sides/back waiting for a flanking opportunity,

- The last advice: keep cool and dont panic, be patient... if you dont get nervous and throw everything you have into the battle, most probably your ennemy will and THEN is when you most probably will have the flanking opportunities, look closely. As a general rule, don't get nervous.

Metha

PS: You can follow this advice but I wouldnt.. ive been flanked in several ocassions http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif !!!

PPS: I've also flanked in several ocassions...

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-08-2000).]

Methabaron
11-09-2000, 05:23
Hi Elmark,

Quote My question is: What is the exact definition of a flank? How close do you have to be to the enemy to give their army a flanking morale penalty. What angle to the enemy determines if you get the morale penalty for side or rear flank? Also, do some units give you a better penalty to enemy morale than others?[/QUOTE]


I am positive that the developers never wanted us to have any insight on the mechanics of these things because they wanted the player "feel" the battle and act according to his "feelings". They wanted you to decide your moves based on real instincts and "what it seems right" rather than make you base your decision on the equations and programmed rules of the game... I think the idea is good... but it is in human nature to try to seek the truth and the reasons why, so we will never stop until we have that rules/equations... do you hear me programmers??!!!!!

I have to admit though that they did a pretty good job in that most instictive reactions and logical assumptions are covered by the mechanics of the game... fighting uphill, attacking from behind, fighting isolated... having the general close etc etc...

To find out the exact rules i'm afraid we will have to rely on our own experience, unless someone can bribe one of the programmers !!!, hey, great idea.

Metha


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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-08-2000).]

11-10-2000, 02:59
Metha:

There is flanking and rear attack. The latter is more affecctive but more diffucult to make. When you flank you attack the enemy from the SIDES, right or left.

You have to attack ! attack! and fight. When they'll rout (you or the enemy) that's the morale penalty. If you attack with WM against YA, the latter will probably rout and thus there it is the penalty.


As for the angle of attack and all the equations regarading how much the penalty does affect the whole army etc...

it is a matter of opinions. The true definite codes are in the hands of the developers.

------------------
Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

Obake
11-10-2000, 03:34
There is one glaring oversight on this whole thread that we have all missed.

We have the ability to click and drag units into specific rank configurations. This will have an impact on unit vs. unit flanking.

Let me give you an example: Suppose you are attacking a unit of Monks with a unit of No-Dachi. You have stretched your unit so that it covers a broader front than your opponent who has set up his monks in the standard box formation. As the two units come into contact and begin hand-to-hand combat those No-Dachi on the outside of your formation will have NO immediate opponent. Assuming you have set your formation to "engage at will" those men will then sweep in to the side and rear of the monks. Those individual soldiers WILL get the flank and rear attack bonuses against the enemy they attack.

I always extend the lines of my units in this way and it has proven very useful in the past. I should probably slit my belly now just for sharing this secret, but I'm much too self-serving and narcissistic(sp?)for that!



------------------
Obake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif

We are but shadows of our former selves and the sons and daughters of lions have become sheep. I am the ghost of our past.

solypsist
11-10-2000, 04:36
well if its any consolation, your info is nothing new. i still prefer thick blocks of troops however, since i think the rank bonus tends to overpower a minor flank bonus from a few stray enemy troops.
thats my "win" strategy, anyway.

11-10-2000, 04:52
I was going to mention Obake's point in the yari samurai tactics. That is avey good suggestion.

But
----

You are surrounding the unit and attacking on rear, but on the whole army?

------------------
Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa

Methabaron
11-11-2000, 14:29
Obake said:

Quote Suppose you are attacking a unit of Monks with a unit of No-Dachi. You have stretched your unit so that it covers a broader front than your opponent who has set up his monks in the standard box formation. As the two units come into contact and begin hand-to-hand combat those No-Dachi on the outside of your formation will have NO immediate opponent. Assuming you have set your formation to "engage at will" those men will then sweep in to the side and rear of the monks. Those individual soldiers WILL get the flank and rear attack bonuses against the enemy they attack.[/QUOTE]

I'am not completely sure of this. But what I think is true is that the depth of your unit formation also affects its overall performance and a bonus or penalty is applied somehow for the number of ranks the unit has... I read somewhere that the optimum number of ranks is 4-5. Less than that the unit will have a penalty of some sort. This is based on the "reality" fact that deep rank units had a front line (the one who's actually fighting) with better support and enhanced moral from having their backs covered by fellow soldiers.

After all, if there were no such penalty what stops me from making a 1 rank deep line for all my hth units????, forget about formations.

I would like to know more about how long is the flanking bonus applied for exemple. Once 2 units engage in combat, they lose formation and enter melee. This means that if another unit has just flanked it, after a few seconds it is NOT flanking ANYMORE because it already engaged in melee. So, does the flanking bonus still apply? or is the bonus applied just for the first round of combats?, or is it applied based on the actual individual soldier facings? (in which case the bonus would apply only and when the facings of attacker/defender are appropiate regardless of whatever manoeuver placed that attacking unit there).

So many questions... so little time...

Metha

longjohn2
11-11-2000, 22:46
There are two aspects to flanking, morale and combat bonus.

For combat the only thing that matters is the relative facing of the soldiers in the individual combat. If one of your guys strikes a blow at an enemy soldier that is not facing him, he gets a big bonus. If he was charging, he gets an even bigger bonus.
However, if the opponent survives, and he is not otherwise engaged, then he will turn round and fight back, so you generally only get one shot with the big bonus.
You can see this if you charge a unit into the rear of another unit. On initial contact, most of the rear rank will go down, but then the rest of the unit will turn round and fight back ( assuming its morale held up )

It is entirely correct that men in a longer unit get a flanking bonus when they swarm round the enemy flanks. Often individual soldiers will get flanking bonuses in the thick of the melee too, if they attack an opponent from the side. This is one reason why it is a good idea to keep yari armed troops in "hold formation" when fighting cavalry, since if the melee gets mixed up then sometimes the cavalry get flank attacks on individual footmen, in which case they not only get the flanking bonus, but also don't count the penalty for facing the spear.

The morale effects of flanking are a bit more complicated, and certainly not as simple as being at a certain distance and angle.
Basically the way it works is this. When morale is checked, both flanks and the rear of each unit are evaluated. Each can be in one of three states: Threatened, Unsupported, and supported. If none are threatened and two of the three ( two flanks and a rear ) are supported, then the unit receives a moderate morale bonus. If any of them are threatened, then there is a morale penalty. If two are threatened, then there is a bigger penalty, and if all three are threatened, the unit will likely be needing some clean trousers.

A flank ( or reat ) is threatened, if it is not supported, and an enemy is in a position to charge onto it. This means that the centre of the enemy unit must be beyond the flank in the relevant direction, and within about 75m.
It does not necessarily have to be behind the flank. If it is in front of the unit, and off to the side, it still counts as threatening the flank.

A flank is supported if there is a friendly unit close to it ( preventing any enemy getting to it), or there is a friendly unit that could charge onto the flank ( and thus attack any enemy that tried to attack the flank)

I'll try another example, and hope the BB doesn't mess it up

EEEEE
..|.....|..
..|.....|..
BBBBB.AAAAA

Units A and B are on the same side and facing upwards. Unit E is an enemy, and facing down. If unit B was not present, then E would count as threatening A's left flank. However, because unit B is close enough to unit A's flank to physically stop any enemy unit attacking it, A's flank counts as supported and is not threatened.

EEEEE
..|....|..
.....AAAAA
..|.......
BBBBB.....

In this example unit B als counts as supporting A's left flank, because it could attack any enemy that tried to attack A's flank.

longjohn2
11-11-2000, 22:57
Sorry the diagrams got trashed again. The message entry box uses a monsospaced font, but the messages are displayed in a proportional one.

Anyway, one more thing Methabaron. There is no combat bonus for having a deeper unit. There are two goods reasons for having deep units though.
Firstly if your unit is too thin, then when it has taken a few casualties, then gaps in the line might appear. Enemy soldiers that move into these gaps will get flank bonuses when attacking your guys at the edges of the gap.
Secondly, it's better for morale. The morale penalties for cassualties, losing in melee, and fatigue, are all averaged over the whole unit, so if a smaller proportin of the unit is actually fighting, all these morale effects will be less when averaged over the whole unit. If you have to put Ashigaru into your line, then put them in a deep formation, as they'll hold up longer that way.

ElmarkOFear
11-12-2000, 01:26
I have learned all kinds of good information in here! Thanks for your input guys. Elmarko of Fearful Ways

ShaiHulud
11-12-2000, 04:24
Obake...It's probable your Daimyo has further use of you and thus will deny you the honor of Seppuku at this time, LoL..
I use that tactic with archers. Set in a line to 'Hold Formation', when they have met the charge a 'Engage at Will' order sends them crashing into both flanks as the ends of the line close in. Yes, a lot of archers die in my armies, but in death they can tie down a superior force while I mount a local superiority elsewhere. And sometimes, they win! hehe

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Rob
11-12-2000, 05:22
And I thought my archers were almost useless after they had used up their arrows...

I will give this idea a try, it sounds like it might work http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

ShaiHulud
11-12-2000, 05:50
An additional use for Archers whose arrows are depleted... pull them behind your Foot or to their flank. They will provide Morale support for your units in fear of their flanks and can always be thrown in themselves.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

ShaiHulud
11-12-2000, 06:04
Now, I have a question... A deployment I use is to take an otherwise weak unit (say Ashigaru) and stretch it to a depth of two behind my line (this is when I have too few units for depth). So, Does this provide morale support to ALL the units they are behind? That is the theory I suppose when doing this.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Rob
11-12-2000, 07:36
Logically they should, but whether it actually works like this is another question.

There have been a number of discussions about this and similar questions, about attack ratings, honour benefits etc. However I think that we are supposed to work these things out intuitively, based on what feels right, based on experience. After all, real great generals did not have a mathematical formula to calculate their battles, they used their instincts and experience.

Only by actually trying it and seeing what happens will we actually get an answer. And unlike in real wars, nobody gets hurt in the process http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif .

ShaiHulud
11-12-2000, 07:44
LoL, Right, only my pride is damaged. But it's nice to learn new angles or whether my own wrinkles are worth their salt. Thx, Rob!

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Obake
11-12-2000, 13:10
Apparantly the Sword waits for you Shai instead of me!

How much support do you think you would gain with a THIN line of Ashigaru standing behind you, quaking in their boots at the first sound of an approaching enemy?

heh heh heh, I thought not!

Actually, I'm not sure of the answer, but I don't think the bonus would apply to all units with the thin ranks behind, just the one that the unit is centered behind!


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Obake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif

We are but shadows of our former selves and the sons and daughters of lions have become sheep. I am the ghost of our past.

The Black Ship
11-12-2000, 13:22
He he...
A thin line of ashis behind everyone ensures everyone smells the urine.
That is unless they're AMP's infamous H7 ashis http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Archer envelopement works well for a while, but man what ever you do don't try to buy time with gun units LOL. They'll burst faster than a rusted water main http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

ShaiHulud
11-12-2000, 16:11
Obake...Your observation is SO logical it is almost certainly correct. The center of the unit ...(sigh, guess it was a reach)
Black Ship...Tis my good fortune to have no olfactory mods on my computer...

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

FeartheolD
11-21-2000, 00:18
Burp!

all this info is giving me wind

Eating and enjoying thx all

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http://feartheold.homestead.com/files/fear_the_old.gif
Keep you exits clear and your neddles clean

BanzaiZAP
11-21-2000, 02:09
Another drawback of the long, thin line: it won't take the attacker long to wipe out your men in the center. His troops then turn to meet the men on the far ends of your line, who have barely arrived by that point. If the attacker has four lines to your two, the center of your unit will be outnumbered in the initial charge, and killed pretty quickly. By the time your "flankers" arrive, the enemy will be ready for them.

-- B)

ShaiHulud
11-21-2000, 10:35
Banzai... Greetings to a fellow Islander!
My practice is to back archers with foot and
counter charge. I try to time it so my charging foot meets theirs before it hits the archers. The archers can continue to shoot, if not depleted, or be thrown in and acquire the flanks as I described. With a elevation advantage they do well against anything but monks. If my counter-charge arrives late I get the advantage of charge while his is dissipated against my archers.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

leoknite
11-21-2000, 12:36
I LIKE CHEESE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Link Shumeisan
11-21-2000, 20:42
Many thanks for these infos Lonjohn2 !

Anjin Hiratomoe
11-22-2000, 01:43
Methabaron wasup? my roomate lives in Dhahran Saudi Arabia just saying hello to a fellow Saudi

Ai-jin
11-23-2000, 00:35
This Thread is one of the most important ones that I have ever read.. And for all that contributed, I sincerly appreciate all the good info.

I had to re-read this today as I have been getting my but kicked alot lately and have gotten so depressed. It seems that I was "not giving a damn anymore" and it showed on my playing skills expecially last night.

I have one question that I am confused on and I hope you will give me some insight please.

I have seen a good tactic from players using WM's to attack my main line. Now using Naginatas, WM and YS as my main center defence, I still get brutalized by the WM. What troops would you recommend to fight the WM? The YS dont do crap and the Naginatas are so so. I used my WM against there WM and it seems that whosever has higher honor WM prevails.
Is there a good counter troop against the WM?
Or am I using my Naginatas wrong? Instead of Melee attacks maybe they should be in hold formation. or visa versa.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


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Clan "No Fear At All"
"The rivers will flow with blood from thy enemy"

ShadowKill
11-23-2000, 01:08
WOW alot of post here

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

DragonCat
11-23-2000, 01:11
Range units decimate warrior monks and no dachi - BUT they must be used wisely and protected. The monk rush is a fearsome thing unless you have nerves of steel and the right men in the right place. I can't give away all my secrets, but I have survived the monk rush and it takes skill, timing and a little luck doesn't hurt.

To counter the monks you have to use ALL your advantages wisely, including in no particular order, right men for the job, range units, height advantage, the correct unit orders (fire at will, hold position, etc), flanking, creating local advantages (you may have same number of units, but if you can get local 2or3x1's while some of his troops are unengaged (ie useless)), charge bonuses, etc.

Good hunting!!

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

BanzaiZAP
11-23-2000, 01:19
Ai-jin:
Naginata are great defenders, so they work very well at Hold Formation, and maybe Hold Position if you want them to hold onto a hilltop. Have the second HtH unit (Yaris or ashigaru) held in reserve. When the Monks hit your line, send your second unit around to flank them. The nagi's should hold the monks in place while your yaris hit them from the side. You'll lose men, but you should be able to throw them back. But yes, honor-level makes a BIG difference! Otherwise, shoot them from a distance. Cavalry Archers are ideal for this - they'll fire away, then fall back, then resume firing, and they run much faster than archers or monks.

ShaiHulud: Aloha! Finally, someone else in my time zone! I'm getting cable modem soon, so maybe we could kill each other some time? Or start up a Pacific Rim clan.....

-- B)