Sudden drive to make Video Games P.C.?

[Veho Nex]

I've noticed over the past 8 or so months there has been a huge drive to making games politically correct in all terms.

From #gamergate (whatever the heck that was supposed to be) to an article I read this morning about the unrealistic expectations video games put on men and women. Women being busty with unreal curves and lingerie armor while men are super ripped, unemotional killing machines who will put themselves on the line or are too stupid to take cover when 1 man has literally just killed 300 of his comrades without breaking a sweat.

So what do you guys think about our need to be super PC and, for lack of a better word, kosher approach to how we portray stuff in video games. Lets keep it civil, I don't wanna watch this fly to the backroom (it scares me)

[wooly_mammoth]

I find this whole "politically corect" concept so irrational and unsensical I can't even formulate an opinion on it. Why should this topic even exist when discussing art and entertainment, be it movies, videogames or books? I see at as an advanced form of bullying. I've never heard anyone complain that commercials for all sorts of pointless products show ripped men or very attractive women in scant clothing, but suddenly it's a problem if I want to play a game where I control a half-naked babe running around and delivering pain. Also, films with ripped shirtless guys in the middle of the action are fine, but for some reason it's forbidden to have an attractive woman in a similar predicament. Another one worth mentioning, I read a couple of days ago something most surreal: some guy complained in a review of Witcher 3 that all humans are white. Wow. o.O

Really, I can't even wrap my mind around the reason why someone could say something like this in good conscience.

[SwordsMaster]

Perhaps, it is the contrary - the games are a productfied view of someone's alter ego fantasy. If they weren't they wouldn't sell. It would seem in a parallel world we are willing to pay to picture ourselves as strong, ripped men, or buxom females. Perhaps because in the real world it has become more and more difficult to attain those ideals.

Also, I reckon justifying someone's ability to leap from a rood and not injure themselves permanently is easier if they are athletically fit. A 400lb wastrel would only ever be able to do it the once. Same with scaling buildings, or spending 40-60h sprinting through the landscape. You'd get fit if you weren't to begin with!

[Veho Nex]

Oh thank god, I thought I might have been the only one who thought that way guys. They way the comments were in the articles and post about this all, I thought I was alone in my thoughts on it. It really bugs me how these people are bashing game devs because of how they portray women or men in video games as these super humans. I do not want to play a game where there is me, fat tech support dude, fighting 6000000021 enemies. You'd constantly be stopping for snack breaks and to catch your breath. Would take you several hours to beat the first level.

[Vuk]

Making a game politically correct should never be a priority. You should try to make good, exciting games. Maybe they will end up being considered PC, maybe they won't. It should not factor into the design process.

[Beskar]

I would like more character development in my games other than big busted bimbos and brain-dead muscle men stereotypes which get churned out so much.

There are a few good games which break the mould, and they turn out great, but time and time again, there are some archtypes which make no sense and frankly dumb. Like seeing a medieval RPG where the female character is in a bikini whilst the man is mailed head to toe, it just looks silly.

Now, my opinion isn't necessarily P.C, it is more that I am getting a taste for higher standards.

On amusing note, Anti-PC brigade are hating on Mad Max, because of Imperator Furiosa, a dominant female character, calling it "Mad Max: Feminist Roaderp"... I will just leave it there.

[Vuk]

It is not about political correctness though Beskar. Thief did not have either of those stereotypes, but was not a game that tried to be pc at all.

[Husar]

Isn't everything politically correct that is within the law?

[wooly_mammoth]

The ideas that that Veho Nex mentions are sometimes labelled as pertaining to the social justice crusade, untertaken by social justice warriors. To what extent campaigning for social justice in these absurd circumstances is the same with "political corectness" I don't really know, but I'd just use the terms interchangeably since they always seem to pertain to absurdities.

By taking Beskar's example, I fail to understand why should it ever be a topic if a video game has bikini-mailed babes in it or not. Don't like it, don't buy it. There's no reason to bully other people for it. From my understanding, you can have gay sex with a minotaur in dragon age 3, so lord behold, there's room enough for everyone under our yellow dwarf star. :love:

[Husar]

What is our culture? Are video games part of our culture or not and do you think it is okay if our culture is sexist or racist? Do we want to have a culture that makes women feel forced to puke in order to stay slim and is that better or worse than a culture that makes women wear garbs which cover their entire face? What about a culture that praises the dadbod vs one that praises the muscular man? Why did some men express relief at the dadbod trend thing? Why is it okay to demand that the pope changes his religion according to our society's values but not okay to demand that artists align their art and therefore an equally big part of our culture to our values? And since when has that not happened?

[Vuk]

Funny, I can play Duke Nuke'm and feel like crap because I am fat. It is true that what you praise in society is what people seek to emulate, but doesn't that just mean we should be aspiring to mediocrity. It also doesn't mean that you have to feel bad because you are not perfect. If you do, that is a 'you' issue that you need to get over.
I would rather look like Duke Nuke'm than Nicholas Cage. Is that a bad thing? I would rather look like JC Denton than one of these metro anime guys. Why shouldn't I? We play to be things that we cannot be in real life. Often things we look up to and would like to be, but cannot. Why be mediocre in a video game when I can just be mediocre in real life?
When art has high standards it causes people to strive to imitate those high standards. Nothing wrong with that.
As far as the over used bimbo stereotype, I agree that it is in poor taste and highly over used. People want their fantasies, and there is nothing wrong with that. Game makers just have to realize that there is a significant portion of the game playing population who do not want to see that. It has nothing to do with being politically correct though. It is just that my fantasy woman looks more Kate Archer and less like Laura Croft. Likewise, there are many woman out there who would rather fantasize about being Katie Archer than Miss Croft.
Political Correctness does not belong in video games. And you know what? People should have a right to offend you. If someone comes out with a game I find offensive (like Grand Theft Auto), I will simply not play it. Boy, that was easy. No feeling like crap because I am not a gangsta playa!
Live and let live.

[Ironside]

You have been sniffing around in the Backroom Veho Nex? Anyway, to answer, the debate has been there earlier, but due to GG it's been catapulted to less specific sources and a wider audience.


What is our culture? Are video games part of our culture or not and do you think it is okay if our culture is sexist or racist? Do we want to have a culture that makes women feel forced to puke in order to stay slim and is that better or worse than a culture that makes women wear garbs which cover their entire face? What about a culture that praises the dadbod vs one that praises the muscular man? Why did some men express relief at the dadbod trend thing? Why is it okay to demand that the pope changes his religion according to our society's values but not okay to demand that artists align their art and therefore an equally big part of our culture to our values? And since when has that not happened?

I'm gonna start here, since Husar stole my examples. :soapbox:

The original point are that media influences our outlook on how we see the world and ourselves in it. Husar is pointing out a few examples where you can see the effects of it.

The issues is not so much that they get presented as super humans, as it is that it's the only representation. Those super humans becomes the perceived normal. And if super is the new normal, most people won't reach up to it. But since it also only are a problem as an agglomerate, the criticism will also be general, since the examples by themselves aren't that much of a deal.


I find this whole "politically corect" concept so irrational and unsensical I can't even formulate an opinion on it. Why should this topic even exist when discussing art and entertainment, be it movies, videogames or books? I see at as an advanced form of bullying. I've never heard anyone complain that commercials for all sorts of pointless products show ripped men or very attractive women in scant clothing, but suddenly it's a problem if I want to play a game where I control a half-naked babe running around and delivering pain.

That's because you haven't been listening, or rather not been reading those places that has the debate. But it'll come up any time anorexia is talked about for example.


Also, films with ripped shirtless guys in the middle of the action are fine, but for some reason it's forbidden to have an attractive woman in a similar predicament.

The general difference is that men are often depicted as a power fantasy, while the woman is depicted as a sex fantasy (sometimes you see characters that are both). And that often in the same game. There's usually a significant difference in body language, poses and camera/image focus between the two. I could go through this in detail using say Frank Frazetta images if you like to. He's very NSFW, but liked to draw both genders with very little clothing, so he's a good example. Not that much on male gaze though. He didn't use it much or often.


Another one worth mentioning, I read a couple of days ago something most surreal: some guy complained in a review of Witcher 3 that all humans are white. Wow. o.O

I'm going to guess that the reviewer was American, since white washing is more of an issue there. Any they're prone to think English speaking=American. That said, if you want to be picky, making a medieval pseudo-European setting without any blacks are less accurate (http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/missionstatement) than them being rare.


Perhaps, it is the contrary - the games are a productfied view of someone's alter ego fantasy. If they weren't they wouldn't sell. It would seem in a parallel world we are willing to pay to picture ourselves as strong, ripped men, or buxom females. Perhaps because in the real world it has become more and more difficult to attain those ideals.

Also, I reckon justifying someone's ability to leap from a rood and not injure themselves permanently is easier if they are athletically fit. A 400lb wastrel would only ever be able to do it the once. Same with scaling buildings, or spending 40-60h sprinting through the landscape. You'd get fit if you weren't to begin with!

In general, the men are over buffed and the females too unmuscular to be fit for the acts the do. It's an ideal body, rather than the fit body that would endure what occurs in a realistic-ish game.


Making a game politically correct should never be a priority. You should try to make good, exciting games. Maybe they will end up being considered PC, maybe they won't. It should not factor into the design process.

Yeah. The thing is that very few politically correct things are limiting the ability of making good, exciting games (some story lines needing more care are probably the most influential). If you factor it in during the design process, you'll end up with about the same amount of work as well. It's a deliberate effort to make games non-pc. Some issues can occur unintentionally (the Witcher 3 all humans are white are an example of that), but most are intentional.



By taking Beskar's example, I fail to understand why should it ever be a topic if a video game has bikini-mailed babes in it or not. Don't like it, don't buy it. There's no reason to bully other people for it. From my understanding, you can have gay sex with a minotaur in dragon age 3, so lord behold, there's room enough for everyone under our yellow dwarf star. :love:

If not liking it starts to cut you out from the majority of the market for no real reason, you can sort of question exactly who is bullying who here.

[Husar]

Funny, I can play Duke Nuke'm and feel like crap because I am fat.

See, it works in you already. The game has apparently changed your life or you made a big typo here.


It is true that what you praise in society is what people seek to emulate, but doesn't that just mean we should be aspiring to mediocrity.

No, why? If everybody aspires to the same one single ideal and actually reaches it, then that ideal is the new mediocrity, you got it the wrong way around.


It also doesn't mean that you have to feel bad because you are not perfect. If you do, that is a 'you' issue that you need to get over.

You can pretend that humans are not social beings that depend on other humans to some extent all day long but that will probably not change a lot about humans. There is surely such a thing as over-dependence but other than sociopaths people care about what other people think and that is not necessarily wrong, morals and social behavior are usually based on this principle. Would you suggest someone to greet everybody at work with a swearword just because caring about the opinions of others is a "you-issue" that they need to get over?

Also Kate Archer and Lara Croft are both made to look sexually attractive, what exactly is that comparison about?

[wooly_mammoth]

Why is it not okay to demand that artists align their art and therefore an equally big part of our culture to our values? And since when has that not happened?

I don't know Hus, your questions make me wonder if there was a cry of outrage in the Hellenistic world at the idealized physiques sculptors depicted in their works. Maybe my view is too simplistic, but I simply can't see this issue. Whenever something like this comes up all I see is someone with a serious lack of something better to do with his/her time bashing away at others for no reason. Don't like ripped shirtless guys, bikini mail or gay minotaurs? Well, just don't go there, it's not like you are being forced to.

Ironside mentioned anorexia. I'm pretty sure this problem was around way before video games became really popular (or had bikini-mail, for that matter). If you want to point the finger at someone for this, I'd guess it's the fashion industry, but I haven't seen people put as much effort into bashing that as into getting extra clothing on a chick on some videogame box that doesn't sell more than some hundred thousand copies (at best, and mostly male consumers anyway). Faces photoshopped to perfection on various commercials you see on tv or strewn on posters through the cities hit a much larger audience than some half-naked chick in a videogame, but again, I don't see people bashing that in any consistent way.

Examples like this really make me question the motives behind social justice warriors and advocates of political correctness in videogames. I can't believe they're trying to solve a problem by attacking where it doesn't exist.

[Montmorency]

The problem displayed in this thread is one of missing the forest for the trees. While this is often an issue of how "SJWs" present their arguments and positions, it's kind of shocking how off the mark those here are with respect to the common complaints about various elements of videogames. Likely, part of the problem is that they aren't familiar with "social justice" ideology in general and so can't place the instantiations relevant to videogames in the larger context of the movement/school of thought.

Anyway, to put it very simply in a 'top-down' way, when people criticize various media products or industries for deficits that you interpret as having to do with "political correctness":


1. They are doing so as part of a larger program of changing mainstream cultures to fit their ideology, which is generally what ideologies or social movements are always doing or trying to do.

2. They are doing so out of a position that many norms, standards, or values (re)created in many games are, to be blunt, bad for society, and so if society is to be improved in their vision, video games must of course be part of their cultural criticism.
2.a. For example, they might complain that female characters tend to have no role in games other than to be sexy and/or be a prize/goal, which then perpetuates undesirable conditions and outcomes for women outside the game world.

3. On a more immediate and practical level, they are just doing the logical flipside of what wooly mammoth said:
Don't like it, don't buy it. There's no reason to bully other people for it. In other words, they see products with elements they don't like and in response they're saying, 'Hey, I have money too, please make something that I would like to play'.

Regardless of what you think of feminism and associated movements, a complete ignorance of the actual issues brought to bear can only leave you confused and frustrated.



That said, if you want to be picky, making a medieval pseudo-European setting without any blacks are less accurate than them being rare.


Just a quibble - this of course depends on what exactly one means by "Person of Color", which is really a useless term for both historiography and sociology. Even "sub-altern" is much better.

As for "pseudo-medieval" game environments, well, aside from questions of marketing/audience (which tend to be the center of gravity for both criticisms and apologetics), we moderns are basically equipped to imagine distant societies (especially Medievalesque ones) as being much more homogeneous than they really were. In fact, when complaining of whitewashing one must be careful not to commit this very error and end up ignoring the actual diversity of Medieval Christendom. Further, all this is amplified in fantasy settings (which tend to be medievalized). For a relevant work, see this (http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Re-imagines-Routledge-Studies-Cyberculture/dp/0415630916).

[Husar]

I don't know Hus, your questions make me wonder if there was a cry of outrage in the Hellenistic world at the idealized physiques sculptors depicted in their works. Maybe my view is too simplistic, but I simply can't see this issue. Whenever something like this comes up all I see is someone with a serious lack of something better to do with his/her time bashing away at others for no reason. Don't like ripped shirtless guys, bikini mail or gay minotaurs? Well, just don't go there, it's not like you are being forced to.

I'd think the people who dislike gay minotaurs are the same ones who like their women highly sexualized and objectified so I'm not sure why you mix these things into one argument. Gay minotaurs are very PC, you have gay acceptance and same rights for animals in one person, a green voter's wet dream.
Oh and the greek philosophers at least were often heavily criticized by their peers. I'm not so sure about sculptors, but modern movies are often criticized for being shallow effect fests with bad stories and mandatory sex scenes with overly sexualized actresses:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/sexism-in-hollywood/
http://time.com/19007/lena-dunham-has-a-point-new-research-documents-hollywoods-sexism/

The comparison to the Greeks is also a bit lacking as we try to build better societies today and I didn't say that sexism was always criticized, I said that people always demanded a certain compliance to their ideals in religion and art. Most of the art was compliant with what was PC back then because the times weren't as liberal as today and the public pressure to be PC was much greater to the point that you could get ostracized or killed if you weren't PC enough.


Ironside mentioned anorexia. I'm pretty sure this problem was around way before video games became really popular (or had bikini-mail, for that matter). If you want to point the finger at someone for this, I'd guess it's the fashion industry, but I haven't seen people put as much effort into bashing that as into getting extra clothing on a chick on some videogame box that doesn't sell more than some hundred thousand copies (at best, and mostly male consumers anyway). Faces photoshopped to perfection on various commercials you see on tv or strewn on posters through the cities hit a much larger audience than some half-naked chick in a videogame, but again, I don't see people bashing that in any consistent way.

Please excuse the sensationalist use of a stereotype but, if you honestly believe that none of this has been criticized recently then perhaps it is time that you leave your basement. :creep:


Examples like this really make me question the motives behind social justice warriors and advocates of political correctness in videogames. I can't believe they're trying to solve a problem by attacking where it doesn't exist.

At the same time the SJWs question your motives for defending video games and probably laugh at the insinuation that there is no problem to be found in video games. The video game industry keeps talking about how it has superceeded some other entertainment sectors in revenue, it is now more in the eyes of the public and therefore more likely to get the same criticism. Many gamers used to demand that video games should be recognized as proper art and become more mainstream and now that this is increasingly becoming the case, they dislike all the attention it gets. I also find the notion that e-sports are real sports quite laughable, I also don't think that playing chess or poker is a legit sport. This all seemed just like an effort to make games more mainstream and now the consequences aren't welcome at all. On hte topic of sports, sports are also criticized, the NCAA for not paying players, American Football for the concussions, Football for the racism etc.

[wooly_mammoth]

I didn't say those things weren't criticized, just that to my knowledge there's a large discrepancy in the firepower used. I'm not sure if adds with photoshopped models get as much flak as the cover of a videogame box in spite of hitting a larger audience, but if I'm wrong then I'm wrong.

The idea that I'm defending is that it shouldn't be anyone else's business if I like gay minotaurs in my videogames or not. This is just a random example to make a point, you can insert bikini-mail, shirtless hunks or morbidly obese technicians instead. The developers should be free to make whatever content they want and the buyers decide if to spend money on it or not. What should be or should not be content should never be an issue.

[Ironside]

Examples like this really make me question the motives behind social justice warriors and advocates of political correctness in videogames. I can't believe they're trying to solve a problem by attacking where it doesn't exist.

You aren't going to get far in this debate when claiming that it isn't a problem at all. You might find the levels to be non-problematic for you, but that's a different argument.

It's worth to mention that you can like things that have problematic elements and that is fine and not a personal attack (which a lot of people will default to emotionally, when something they like will fall under criticism).


I didn't say those things weren't criticized, just that to my knowledge there's a large discrepancy in the firepower used. I'm not sure if adds with photoshopped models get as much flak as the cover of a videogame box in spite of hitting a larger audience, but if I'm wrong then I'm wrong.

That is because mainstream media won't talk about it, since it's not news. And you don't read the dedicated media about it. But you do read dedicated media about video games. So when that dedicated media talks about, you'll hear it.


The idea that I'm defending is that it shouldn't be anyone else's business if I like gay minotaurs in my videogames or not. This is just a random example to make a point, you can insert bikini-mail, shirtless hunks or morbidly obese technicians instead. The developers should be free to make whatever content they want and the buyers decide if to spend money on it or not. What should be or should not be content should never be an issue.

The developers are limited in what they can do. The publishers (financiers) are a huge gate keeper. Due to fear of losing money, they're often quite conservative and very prone to self-reinforced thinking. This is an issue in all media. That also means that when something has been established as a norm, the publishers will actively work to keep that norm. So to change that norm you have to complain to the public, because you can't change the attitude of the publishers without changing their perception of what will sell.

And they're often wrong. A book example, but I'll quote wikipedia.

After eight other publishers had rejected Philosopher's Stone, Bloomsbury offered Rowling a £2,500 advance for its publication. Despite Rowling's statement that she did not have any particular age group in mind when beginning to write the Harry Potter books, the publishers initially targeted children aged nine to eleven. On the eve of publishing, Rowling was asked by her publishers to adopt a more gender-neutral pen name in order to appeal to the male members of this age group, fearing that they would not be interested in reading a novel they knew to be written by a woman. She elected to use J. K. Rowling (Joanne Kathleen Rowling), using her grandmother's name as her second name because she has no middle name.

Publisher changes after finding one that accepted the book (most were rejections): Name of author... Target group (this one is actually huge. You have shows cancelled (http://io9.com/paul-dini-superhero-cartoon-execs-dont-want-largely-f-1483758317)because too many girls were watching it. It's very important of course, but it's one issue, where rigid thinking will dominate heavily).

Going back to computer games, we have this one running on kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iga/bloodstained-ritual-of-the-night). 2D scroller of castlevania fame. No publisher funding for years. Kickstarter? Funded in less than a day. With your graphic standards, it's not a game for you, so in that perspective the publishers are correct.
Remember Me had publisher issues for having a female protagonist (http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/20/publishers-rejected-remember-me-because-of-female-lead/), even if the game later got lukeworm reception for being mediocre (and not for having a female protagonist).

[wooly_mammoth]

My opinion is that if there's a problem, it's with the people in front of the product, not with the product itself.

I agree with you that all areas of entertainment have evolved into industries with very specific rules in the big league, and with indie developers (of any kind of content, games, movies, music) that try do to their own thing. However, I would never find it reasonable from my part to bash the content I don't like in either category and make a public appeal against it.

edit: funny thing I remembered and maybe somewhat related to the discussion. Hotline Miami 2 was banned in Australia (I think, hope I'm not wrong) for a scene alluding to rape, which in the game's universe is actually a shot from a movie. So, it was perfectly fine that the entire game was a glorified bloodbath (with some really horrific executions and visceral scenes), but that one scene was unnaceptable. It's actually cut short by the producer who says it was a fantastic shot and sends everyone to have lunch, but later on in the game you do have women that are killed for "real" in gruesome ways. :laugh4:

Like I said, I fail to see the logic behind such decisions or comments regarding the content of entertainment.

[Montmorency]

I dunno about that, Australia is infamous for regularly banning/censoring games with any sort of serious violence.

[wooly_mammoth]

Here's a quick link (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/15/hotline-miami-2-banned-australia-explicit-rape-scene) in the news. It was Australia after all.

I do not fully understand if the reason for banning was that scene in particular (which is completely illogical and arbitrary) or because the whole game is extremely violent (which makes sense). I can understand the second point of view if you are banning violent games, but making a decision on one fake (within the game's fiction) rape scene while disregarding everything else would indeed be weird. Maybe it was just the press shifting the issue the way they like to do.

[Beskar]

Publisher changes after finding one that accepted the book (most were rejections): Name of author... Target group (this one is actually huge. You have shows cancelled (http://io9.com/paul-dini-superhero-cartoon-execs-dont-want-largely-f-1483758317)because too many girls were watching it. It's very important of course, but it's one issue, where rigid thinking will dominate heavily).

Going back to computer games, we have this one running on kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iga/bloodstained-ritual-of-the-night). 2D scroller of castlevania fame. No publisher funding for years. Kickstarter? Funded in less than a day. With your graphic standards, it's not a game for you, so in that perspective the publishers are correct.
Remember Me had publisher issues for having a female protagonist (http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/20/publishers-rejected-remember-me-because-of-female-lead/), even if the game later got lukeworm reception for being mediocre (and not for having a female protagonist).

I hate it when publishers do that. Lara Croft has been a series out for ages, and it has been a very popular one at that. Rejecting titles due to female lead is an utterly retarded excuse.

[easytarget]

This is just a part of the growing pains experienced as a new genre of entertainment goes mainstream. That not only brings in a new crowd but also causes a bit of reflection about where things are at and where they ought to head next.

I view almost all of it as a tempest in tea cup.

The recent issue this thread is about did save me some time though, because as a result of not wanting to hear about any of it I removed the following websites because they wasted too much space on it and started treating it in my eyes as a politicized agenda they were actively pursuing through the choice of what they wrote about: Kotaku, Polygon (and the equally vapid sister site The Verge). In fact, besides this site, and TW, I'm pretty much down to Qtr to Three and RPS as the only game sites I'll read.

So, who says good things don't come from stupid discussions. That said, I definitely think 90% at least of all PC games ever made are infantile drivel not worth the space on any hard drive and we're lucky in most cases that 10 or 20 years from now all of it will be inaccessible.

Ironic that the electronic age that was supposed to in many minds herald the ability to keep track of everything will ultimately nearly obliterate history itself because it will all either be on medium that won't work in a hundred years or is lost in such a maze of noise no one can find it.

[Veho Nex]

You have been sniffing around in the Backroom Veho Nex?

I post like once or thrice a year after building up some courage then I run away back to the safety of my Arena and occasional frontroom lol

[Greyblades]

Good to see the rationalisations have remained irrelevant to the real world.

Ironside mentioned anorexia. I'm pretty sure this problem was around way before video games became really popular (or had bikini-mail, for that matter). If you want to point the finger at someone for this, I'd guess it's the fashion industry, but I haven't seen people put as much effort into bashing that as into getting extra clothing on a chick on some videogame box that doesn't sell more than some hundred thousand copies (at best, and mostly male consumers anyway). Faces photoshopped to perfection on various commercials you see on tv or strewn on posters through the cities hit a much larger audience than some half-naked chick in a videogame, but again, I don't see people bashing that in any consistent way.
They dont bash the fasion industry as much as gaming because thier tactics can't work on the fasion industry.

The gaming press allows does not have much self or outside regulation that the mainstream press has and thus the worst of collusion and coercion methods are frequently allowed to be used. When combined with a lot of game developers that are either a)naiive enough to actually consider thier complaints solvable or b)not not large enough to weather losing their sympathisers as a consumer base, the industry proved to be relativly easy to push a political agenda upon. In the mainstream press the bully tactics used in the name of social justice are impossible due to regulation and without the ability to decieve or bully thier ability to affect something as established as the fasion industry is limited.

Bottom line: the fasion industry is too large to be undermined by a mere political subculture without the lever of bully tactics and too experienced with censorship to cave into pressure, so like every other petty interest group social justice is either ignored or outright mocked by the fasion industry.

Gaming was pushed because it was seen as an easy target to convert. They were only partially right and when their corrpution and bullying became apparant it triggered a consumer revolt.


I hate it when publishers do that. Lara Croft has been a series out for ages, and it has been a very popular one at that. Rejecting titles due to female lead is an utterly retarded excuse.
Do we have proof the publishers did that beyond the creator's word? I'm afraid that these days I find it hard to automatically believe every accusation of sexism I hear from the mouths of mediocre game makers.

[CBR]

They dont bash the fasion industry as much as gaming because thier tactics can't work on the fasion industry.
Bah, everyone knows Mass Effect was horrible! All those poor girls ruined by VGarrus creating an impossible body image with his thigh gap.

PS: don't criticise this post, as your ableism will trigger me and I have no comfort room nearby.

[Husar]

I also don't like the idea that some of these social justice warriors want to destroy jobs for children in other countries, but thankfully the fashion industry is experienced enough to keep these jobs around. If they could let more children program the next CoD game, they could maybe lower the price or increase the profit for their investors, this would benefit gaming immensely and create more jobs for children who want to afford to go to school or eat a bowl of rice every day.

[Ironside]

This is going to start reach backroom levels pretty soon...


They dont bash the fasion industry as much as gaming because thier tactics can't work on the fasion industry.

You don't see them bash the fashion industry because you don't read the magazines that does that. Let me put it this way: GG was the noise level needed to hit national news.

What level do you think are needed to get legislators (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3002734/France-rejects-imposing-ban-skinny-models-discriminate-against-people-workplace.html) involved? (The answer is dead models btw) That's not including regularly (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-designer-pushes-for-not-so-thin-models/)occurring (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/fashion/21MODELS.html?pagewanted=all) call outs (http://www.dailylife.com.au/dl-fashion/fashion-week/are-the-models-still-too-thin-at-fashion-week-20140408-36a48.html) for less skinny models. Here's one about racism (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/08/fashion/fashions-blind-spot.html)as well.


The gaming press allows does not have much self or outside regulation that the mainstream press has and thus the worst of collusion and coercion methods are frequently allowed to be used.

And this is pure bullshit.

A.) You have stuff like Fox News.
B.) Grayblades is refering to that some of the more active gaming magazines made a coop piece against the harassment in the early stages of GG. This is the "collusion" (also known as email).
There were also some reporters that didn't disclose that they were friendly with some indie developers.

That is all. There's a crap ton of dubious stuff in video game media, but when talking about GG and its after-march and SJW, its only about this.


In the mainstream press the bully tactics used in the name of social justice are impossible due to regulation and without the ability to decieve or bully thier ability to affect something as established as the fasion industry is limited.

By having magazines and writing articles?


Bottom line: the fasion industry is too large to be undermined by a mere political subculture without the lever of bully tactics and too experienced with censorship to cave into pressure, so like every other petty interest group social justice is either ignored or outright mocked by the fasion industry.

I'm curious with what you call bully tactics. Making your voice heard when wanting to have a change is a necessity.


Gaming was pushed because it was seen as an easy target to convert. They were only partially right and when their corrpution and bullying became apparant it triggered a consumer revolt.

Gaming was pushed because people are interested in these issues and gaming. I mean, the media involved are in several cases fairly old. It's certainly not a secret cabal running around planning it, like you imply with that statement.


Do we have proof the publishers did that beyond the creator's word? I'm afraid that these days I find it hard to automatically believe every accusation of sexism I hear from the mouths of mediocre game makers.

Not by itself. It is confirmed that female protagonists are vastly less common than male ones. Games with female protagonists are also in general getting less promotion from the gaming companies. Basically, it would not be surprising.

[Husar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siVeBCaYeko

So FIFA finally has these "women", who is so secure in his manhood that he wants to throw the first stone at this feminist overreach?
Or does anyone approve? Is it sexist to show women with short trousers? Insensitive to muslims that their heads ain't covered?

[Greyblades]

About time really, I mean they already let in the gays:
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/614/272/cd7.jpg
Dry humpers:
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/616/116/cde.gif
Giants:
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/614/271/f77.gif
Land Sharks:
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/563/003/79b.gif
And Telekinetics:
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/640/334/eb4

[a completely inoffensive name]

Title makes no sense, there have always been plenty of developers that catered solely to the PC crowd. I don't think it's a sudden drive we see, but a fact that most games on consoles are relatively lackluster (so far) and the seeds of kickstarter have begun to bear fruit for the PC community.

[Greyblades]

If you had been paying attention you'd know the drive being talked about is coming from gaming media, not so much from the developers themselves.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If you had been paying attention you'd know the drive being talked about is coming from gaming media, not so much from the developers themselves.
You didn't get the joke

[Greyblades]

No I didnt. That happpens a lot, some say its because I dont get jokes, I say its because people here are bad joke tellers.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If everyone you meet is an asshole, you are the asshole.

[Greyblades]

Or you live in San Fransisco.

[Montmorency]

If everyone you meet is an asshole, you are the asshole.

Correction: You as well are an asshole. Cuts both ways.

[Husar]

I didn't get the joke either, but didn't think about it the first time I read it.

[drone]

Obligatory Glorious PC Master Race reference here.
https://i.imgur.com/8X7uPPd.png

[Beskar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siVeBCaYeko

So FIFA finally has these "women", who is so secure in his manhood that he wants to throw the first stone at this feminist overreach?
Or does anyone approve? Is it sexist to show women with short trousers? Insensitive to muslims that their heads ain't covered?

It actually makes me tempted to play the new fifa. I want to play as the so called "pansy women" and beat up Manchester United.

[Brandy Blue]

From #gamergate (whatever the heck that was supposed to be) to an article I read this morning about the unrealistic expectations video games put on men and women.

I thought the whole point of modern gender ideals is that they are unrealistic, or at least not attainable for free.There's no money in selling older men gray hair dye. Sorry PC folks, but the problem is built into capitalism. I find it disturbing that our ideals are mostly physical/sexual rather than focused on moral values, but its a lot harder to sell forgiveness or altruism in a bottle.

[Greyblades]

Eh, I dont think our ideals are dominantly physical or sexual, I just think that physical and sexual ideals are the easiest to exploit. Why go through the effort of figuring out how to represent charity in an advert when you can just hire a bunch of sexy models and a cameraman?