View Full Version : Fly my camels
LovelyHaji
11-26-2002, 18:14
Howdo I'm playing as Turkish, doing allright so far.
1) what are your favourite Turkisk units? THey seem to have loads of different horse units, and i can't really tell which i should buy
2) should you charge cavalry with spearmen, or just make sure they face the right way and are standing still when the cav charge hits? i didn't have to worry about this pre-patch with billmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
3)Anyone else use camels just because they're cute?
Saracen infantry. When available......Ottoman Heavy Infantry. Yeah
i am using the turks, is the sacren inf all that? i havent built one yet for their morale issues. i use the muwadhibds or however you say it. anyways, the reason i started the turks was to get6 some practice with cav heavy armies, but it is still in early so i dont have much choice yet.
HopAlongBunny
11-26-2002, 18:59
3)Anyone else use camels just because they're cute?
yes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Saracene Infanterie rocks ... take some Janissary Heavy aswell ... and Khawarzmanian Cavalry ... Ottoman Infanterie is OK too for a support role. Besides those, I´m afraid ... I have no idea why the Turks have been the Force they were ... later in the Game ... when Knights are moving against you ... you´ll notice that you need superior numbers ... since your troops die very easily.
Actually I love the Turcoman Foot for their archer abilities. They are possibly the best archers in the game, heavy armour, shields, good speed and a loose order. Perfect for prolonged ranged combat.
Jannisary Infatry and Archers are cool too.
Camels should stay home in the desert and only be used against archers or cavalry, never infantry.
Leet Eriksson
11-26-2002, 22:06
if your feeling desperate against those knights always use saracens or heavy jans against them while flanking them with sipahi or armenian cavalry,when you do get khawarizmian heavy cavalry use them to instead of yer sipahis.
ShaiHulud
11-26-2002, 22:58
I've played a couple times with the Turks. The good news is Saracen inf can be had fairly quickly. The bad news is you have little that kills armor well, for a long time. Early builds are sufficient for Egyptian conquest but you really need Saracens to deal with the more martial Byzantines. Their (Saracens) advantage in armor is equally balanced by their less than sterling attack.
Until you can get Ghazi, hire the armor-piercing foot mercenaries that come available. Likewise, there are mounted x-bowmen to be had early as mercenaries. These will help to counter the armored units you'll face. I think it's key to get a inn built immediately to get suitable forces and numbers needed for quick conquests, early.
Your early wars will be against Egypt and Byz, due to geography. Egypt's Nubians can't stand against your Saracens, their camels can't either, nor their cav. Even lowly spears can do the job on all of those. Practically speaking, you can blitz Egypt, especially if you jump their monarch immediately and get his ransom. Early Egypt has nothing you cannot match or better.
Post-patch the Byz are harder. Their Byz inf (armored, swords) can do serious damage, their few Varangians are very bad news, and their Kataphractoi are as deadly as before. They are very costly to kill off. Worst of all, imo, are their verdamt TREBIZON ARCHERS. Those bastids stand toe-to-toe with any attackers. I've watched them totally destroy 40 Arm Hvy and 33 Kwarazmian hvy cav before my last 7 Kwar hvys declared victory. Archers? I make it a point to take Trebizond, fast lol
The Arm hvy are fair... I really consider them medium cav because they don't fare well against western heavies. Ghulam cav are better, but those, also, tend to lose against western heavy cav. Unfortunately, they are about as good as it gets. Sipahi don't rate as well as either of them. Kwarazmian hvys don't seem to last against the west, either. Still, you do get to produce all of them with valor bonuses, when you finally get the infra built up in the right provinces.
I know there are better armed archers to be had, but they take so long to get to that I prefer desert archers. Until Futawwas can be built ( I like their morale) you can produce desert archers almost immediately and not utilize provinces where you intend to specialize in another troop type. (eg: Armenia for Arm hvy cav, etc)
The good news about Ghazi inf is excellent morale and armor-piercing. The bad news is they have to be replaced after every battle. Pick a province with good armor to make these and provide them some edge for survival. Then, treat them as high-powered peasants. Just don't expect longevity of them.
Perhaps someone more cav oriented can better assess the Turkish cavalry archer types capabilities. I've used them on offense and defense and occasionally get AI cooperation with a pursuit by foot that nets good kills, but mostly they are forced to retreat in the face of foot archers. For raw numbers I find foot archers more advantageous. (60 vs 40 shooters) They (cav archers) pursue broken armies well enough but take a fair number in losses due to their lack of armor. I have not noted any truly differentiating advantages of one type over another.
Muwahid are, like Ghazi, high morale troops. Also, like Ghazi, they are lightly armored and die quickly. They are good maneuver troops, tho, and always have a place in my armies.
I'll leave to others to expound on Janissaries. I've never gotten that far, my games being generally decided before I can get those built.
muffinman14
11-26-2002, 23:45
Saracans all the way. I wish they were aviable to some Catholic factions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
How to use Horse Archers and Turcoman Horse...
I'm no expert, but maybe you should take a look at Magyar Khan's replays. He is an expert with them, though it is MP and there all units are expendable.
How I have used the great horse archers of the Turks is great fun.
I have found them to be best on the defensive and against other Muslims, they just don't dig heavy armour.
In a textbook example of horse archery I was attacked by a massive army of Egyptians in Edessa (that I had to abandon that campaign due to the Byz attacking as well is of no importance here).
I only had one Turcoman and one Horse Archer. While I deployed my infantry to the rear I positioned my HA out front on either side within protective range of each other. To my luck the Egyptians had only deployed three Desert Archers and loads of Nubians and camels.
I quickly marched my horses to either side of the enemy and began dashing in and out of range to fire at them. The enemy archers who were on the move constantly had to halt and turn allowing me for two volleys without counterfire. This caused great havoc among the light camels and spears, and soon units began to break off to chase my Horse Archers. That left open the archers to my Turcomans as the spears had advanced too far. A quick dash into their formations (hitting them in the flank is devastating with even Turcomans) and their ranged capabilities were halved while I lost only a few Turcomans. Meanwhile my HA had killed a lot of their chasers due to their better speed and were now in the rear of the enemy, it was time for the charge. So I charged out my infantry and caused a massrout.
I could have won anyway, but the horse archers and turcomans made it much more fun and much less costly. Even if you are bad with horse archers I can say they are possibly the most fun to play with.
Pellinor
11-27-2002, 15:09
Playing as Early Turks, I have been using horse archer armies a lot. I prefer Turcomans, as they have slightly better melee stats for the same upkeep, but it makes little difference.
Early on, I used massed HAs to whittle down the enemy. Their speed means that they need only fear light cavalry and archers, so my basic battle plan would be this:
Attack with as many horse archers as possible (I've used up to 12 at once), some heavier cavalry (heir's bodyguard or Armenians) and NO infantry of any sort, into an enemy-held province. The intention is not to capture the province, but to inflict casualties. After a few such attacks, you should be able to get the province; at the very least you will have forstalled attacks by him.
The advantage of attacking is that you can deliberately lose the battle by withdrawing all your troops when their arrows have gone without losing your own province. I also find that the enemy tends to react when defending, allowing me to outmanoeuvre him better - and that is the key.
Split your archers into a few groups, say three. Keep your heavies back, and move the archers in to start shooting the enemy. The priority is cavalry, archers, then infantry.
He will generally try to send cavalry to bring you to battle, and archers will try counter-battery fire. The infantry will also move in.
At this point your archers retreat, in different directions. The enemy archers are now out of range and the infantry is too slow to catch you, but the cavalry follows some of your units. Your targetted archers keep retreating, and those not targetted shoot the cavalry. Some heavy cavalry tries to work around behind the enemy.
Be sure to keep all your troops safe. The point is to damage the enemy with no casualties. If in doubt, rout a hard-pressed unit off the field rather than fight.
After a few minutes, the enemy cavalry is spread all over the map chasing your archers, and taking heavy casualties. Infantry is also spread out and getting tired, and the archers and artillery have been left behind - they keep stopping to shoot, but have no targets. Your archers include some tired units will full quivers who have been running from the cavalry, and some fresher units with empty quivers who have been shooting them.
Try to swap these around - lead the fresh units close to enemy cavalry to attract their attention. If you're running short of enemy cavalry, start on their infantry - least armoured first. Your heavies can try the odd sudden charge to eliminate some of the isolated archers and artillery.
Once you run out of arrows, withdraw. You lose the battle, but have inflicted heavier casulaties than you took. In particular, you should have badly damaged the enemy cavalry and, to a lesser extent, his archers. I haven't noticed any bad V&Vs from this.
In the next battle, you should be able to eliminate the enemy cavalry completely, if you hadn't before. At this point your archers start to wipe out infantry with no retribution, and your heavies destroy the archers. You now start to get enemy units routing, and your horse archers are superb at capturing them. Watch that you don't pursue into intact enemy formations, though.
After a few battles, you should be able to take the province easily. The enemy will often retreat if he has no cavalry to oppose yours.
The big danger is always letting the enemy melee your archers. As you are running around all over it is easy to bump into an enemy unit from behind, at which point the pursuing cavalry wipes your unit out. If in doubt, rout - your troops will be captured, not killed, and you will be able to ransom them back. The pause key is essential.
I used this mostly on the Byzantines and on the steppe rebels. The Byz have few light cavalry, and their cataphracts are easy to avoid, so this works well on them. The Egyptians are harder, as their troops are lighter and can chase you better, giving less time to shoot them. I am now facing the Spanish, who have conquered up to Egypt, and their jinettes cause havoc.
I have also found that as the game goes on units get more and more armoured, making it harder to inflict the casualties you need, so you end up dancing around them and unable to stop them advancing into your provinces. As an early tactic, though, it works wonders. And I have have just used it to chop an Italian crusade to tiny pieces - once the knights die the fanatics and peasants evaporate. Any army with no light cavalry is easy meat.
It takes a lot of micromanaging, and is risky: if the enemy does bring you to melee, you will certainly lose a lot of men and will probably end up routing off the field - lots of ransoms, potential V&Vs, no enemy casualties :-(
When it works, though, it is intensely satisfying :-)
G0THIC-Lobster
11-27-2002, 15:31
My fav turk unit....Jannisary heavy infantry and khazarian cavalry
LovelyHaji
11-27-2002, 16:08
Cheers for the all the advice Ghazi infantry are my new favourite unit. It never fails to amuse me when i can't find them, only to discover they've legged it of somewhere and utterly destroyed a couple of spear units. one of my ghazi's got 190 kills all under their own iniative shame only 4 of them lived to tell the tale... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
For laughs you could try an all-Jannissary Infantry army.
it's good fun to have an army in which every single unit can shoot a bow with skill, then fight pretty good in melee as well.
I've had a full Janissary Infantry army hold off armies of 4000+ men when positioned on defensible ground, with minimal casualties on their own side.
Just be wary of cavalry-heavy opponents.
Leet Eriksson
11-27-2002, 22:18
Sicilians should have saracen infantryking roger II is a saracen wannabe,he even dressed like arabs for the heck of it,and most of his scientist are muslim
TheLastEuropean
11-28-2002, 17:59
I know the Turks have bow units coming out of their ears but can they also get those Turcopoles from Antioch? Or another way of putting it is are Turcopoles available to all factions (given control of relevant provinces).
I think Turcopoles are Catholic-exclusive.
Turcopoles were turkish mercenaries in the emploi of the crusaders. Hence they would not be available (at least not under the same name) to the muslim factions.
Turcopoles are basically Turcomans with heavier armour and no shield...
They are better as horse Archers but worse in combat. They are finally Catholic exclusive (pre-patch they were Egyptians oddly enough).
TheLastEuropean
11-29-2002, 17:31
Ah well, my Turcoman Horse will more than suffice Once they get to valour 4 they are extremely hardy units. I've seen them run into a 60-70 man Nubian spear unit head on and beat it a couple of times http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif (That can't be right Can it?? Surely not but I'm keeping quite about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif) You can start with valour 1 from the province bonus in Tripoli and an able General soon gets them up to 4.
I'm not too familiar with the Turkish units having played exclusively as England up til now and having hardly encountered them in campaign. But I have to say, I like Turcoman Horse a LOT and some of the dual-purpose high-end units look very, very sexy indeed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The Turks just have so many units to use and choose from I feel quite spoilt but am enjoying it immensely http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
LordKhaine
11-30-2002, 01:37
Large amounts of camels are just downright scary. Its freaky facing them in large numbers. (And I dont mean scary in a "they're gonna kick my ass" kinda way, I mean in a "wtf are those weird looking things making weird noises??" kinda way)
One game I was byzantine, and I was hugly outnumbered by an army mainly of camels. I was on a hill, and there was a dense sandstorm. I tell you it was like a B movie, with this huge wave of camels coming out of the sandstorm and surrounding me. It was made even weirder with the crazy camel noises when you shoot them. They swarmed in and tore me to bits... I didnt stand a chance. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
*cowers in fear of memory*
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