After years of pain and humiliation Greece may exit Euro AND EU... PVC says...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

...I told you so.

Back in 2008 I argued that Greece should be ejected from the Euro so that it's currency could be devalued and its lending situation normalised. This would, I argued, be extremely painful in the short term but better in the medium and long term.

I was widely scoffed at.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33164924

"Failure to reach an agreement would... mark the beginning of a painful course that would lead initially to a Greek default and ultimately to the country's exit from the euro area and, most likely, from the European Union," the Bank of Greece said in a report.

So... I was right, Greece has spent seven years in depression and now looks likely to exit the Euro anyway, and the acrimony means it may also exit the EU.

Well. Done. Team.

[rory_20_uk]

Fingers crossed they keep up the good work!

by 2050 it might end up as a Nordic Alliance which has a chance of working.

~:smoking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It won't work until they either kick out Germany or Germany annexes everyone else.

[Crandar]

Nah, Greece will remain in EU, at least for now.
CORAL is a deeply pro-EU party, completely afraid of doing anything that could be characterized as revolutionary.

[wooly_mammoth]

It has always baffled me how human communities choose to be led by the biggest idiots available at the time of the election. I'd say the guys in the current greek government are up there on par with, or perhaps even beyond, the imbeciles we have in Romania. Met a random greek in an airport a couple of weeks ago and had a chat, asked him about the "real" situation since I tend to distrust the distortions made by the mass-media, but he confirmed that it's pretty bad for the average person or youngsters entering the field of work.

I know these problems are older, but then the more so, if things are bad why would you put a bunch of populist incompetents in charge?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, the current Greek government has a poisoned chalice, the current budget, savagely cut from 2008, is causing the Greek economy to shrink faster than the debt, so although they're lowering the debt in Euro's it's actually rising as a percentage of GDP. So when the Greek government says "we can't make any more cuts" they're right. As it is the shrinking economy is forcing more people onto welfare, more cuts to public services will further raise the welfare bill.

It's a vicious circle, and it requires a default and return to the Drachma, then in ten years Greece will be much better off. The sad thing is that if this inevitably had been acknowledged in 2009 then Greece would ALREADY be better off.

I blame Germany and the Netherlands for this, followed by Belgium and France.

[Papewaio]

All based on a messed up excel spreadsheet cell.

Oops our austerity conclusions was based on a wrong formula! Oh well it lined up with our bias so well let's double down on the stupidity...

[Kagemusha]

It would be only healthy to kick out whole of Southern Europe from Euro. The economies of Southern Europe need a currency with less value with their service based economies.

[Fragony]

Not going to cheer Greece is just a vessel for a bank-baillout, Greeks are being screwed and so are we

[Brenus]

"if things are bad why would you put a bunch of populist incompetents in charge?" Err, perhaps because it was the "competent" ones who put Greece where it is now? The "competent" ones who cheated, pillage and evade taxes? After 7 years of the "competent" very efficient economical policy, not only the Greece debts has increased, but the employment is higher than ever. Solution by the "competent": make Greece and the Greeks poorer... It didn't work but let's carry on...

Note: No one can be kicked from the EU or from the Euro. If Greece default, the ECC will have to bail out the creditors.

But yes, this is a big faille in the EU. The EU, we were told, was supposed to protect. And what they want is to cut pensions... What a great plan to rescue a country that was pillaged by the bankers and "investors"!!!

[Sarmatian]

...I told you so.

Back in 2008 I argued that Greece should be ejected from the Euro so that it's currency could be devalued and its lending situation normalised. This would, I argued, be extremely painful in the short term but better in the medium and long term.

I was widely scoffed at.

And rightly so.


So... I was right, Greece has spent seven years in depression and now looks likely to exit the Euro anyway, and the acrimony means it may also exit the EU.

Well. Done. Team.

Would you care to explain why would Greece be better off?

[wooly_mammoth]

"if things are bad why would you put a bunch of populist incompetents in charge?" Err, perhaps because it was the "competent" ones who put Greece where it is now? The "competent" ones who cheated, pillage and evade taxes? After 7 years of the "competent" very efficient economical policy, not only the Greece debts has increased, but the employment is higher than ever. Solution by the "competent": make Greece and the Greeks poorer... It didn't work but let's carry on...

Well, I hever said the previous ones were any better, but to me, the current guys look like the top of the top in the incompetence department.


But yes, this is a big faille in the EU. The EU, we were told, was supposed to protect. And what they want is to cut pensions... What a great plan to rescue a country that was pillaged by the bankers and "investors"!!!

Sadly, there isn't all that much you can do from the outside to protect a nation from the stupidity its own citizens manifest when it's time to vote for their leaders.

[Husar]

Why don't we just declare their debt nullified?
They can obviously not pay it back anyway so nothing really changes from where we are now, except that Greece can start to work normally again.
And then we do that with Argentina and a few other countries as well.
The market will then regulate itself to make sure it won't happen again.

[Kralizec]

PVC, I distinctly recal you used to say that Greece "should be helped leaving the Euro" or "should be allowed to leave it". Your current way of phrasing is more correct - most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone, including all their major parties, which is why leaving was never on the table before.

IIRC by the turn of last year (just before the elections) Greece's economy had started to grow again. Greece's debt mostly has extremely low interest rates and long maturity, so it would have been doable (although still not easily).

Instead Greece is stuck with a government that doesn't even want to enact pension age reforms that would bring Greece in line with the rest of Europe - norms which one Syriza member even compared to sub-Saharan Africa.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Can't just let the debt get nullified otherwise everyone knows that the way out of debt is to just accumulate too much of it.

Couldn't let Greece leave the Euro because you guys had to have your union.

Why did anyone think that a political union of nations was going to be anything but a select few dominating over the rest. Who here actually thought that their country mattered, leaving aside the Germans and the French?

UK was right all along not to tie themselves to the Euro. What a ****show.

[Husar]

Can't just let the debt get nullified otherwise everyone knows that the way out of debt is to just accumulate too much of it.

You say that as though Greece forced people to lend them more money once their debt was so high as a percentage of GDP that new lenders wet their pants from the promise of higher interest due to the higher risk. Why is it okay to take a higher risk for more potential profit and then not to have to accept a loss if it materializes from the high risk transaction? If you invest in a risky startup business for a potentially huge profit but the business actually fails, no politician/Merkel will come and force the startup owners to suffer until they have repaid your investment. As such, the market will/should regulate itself.

A fair way of doing it might be to nullify only the high risk investments with the biggest interest rates first until the country can pay the obligations it made with a low interest rate (low-risk investments where a loss could not be expected at the time the investment was made) if there are any of those left.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And rightly so.

Would you care to explain why would Greece be better off?

Once Greece was bankrupt it would no longer have to service its crippling debts, freeing up its remaining tax base to actually support the country. It would still need to reform, but it could do so with more breathing room. Most importantly the New Drachma would rapidly devalue against the Euro, causing an influx of German tourists who would regenerate Greece's service sector.

Greece would also be able to set its own interest rates and print its own money (control of fiscal policy)/

It's what they used to do every five years or so before they joined the Euro.


Well, I hever said the previous ones were any better, but to me, the current guys look like the top of the top in the incompetence department.

Sadly, there isn't all that much you can do from the outside to protect a nation from the stupidity its own citizens manifest when it's time to vote for their leaders.

We've reached the point where we're protecting them from joining the Third World, something that was not a danger 20 years ago.


Why don't we just declare their debt nullified?
They can obviously not pay it back anyway so nothing really changes from where we are now, except that Greece can start to work normally again.
And then we do that with Argentina and a few other countries as well.
The market will then regulate itself to make sure it won't happen again.

So you want them to default?

This begs the question of why your country didn't just give them money seven years ago instead of demanding loans with high interest rates (for a "rescue" package).


PVC, I distinctly recal you used to say that Greece "should be helped leaving the Euro" or "should be allowed to leave it". Your current way of phrasing is more correct - most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone, including all their major parties, which is why leaving was never on the table before.

IIRC by the turn of last year (just before the elections) Greece's economy had started to grow again. Greece's debt mostly has extremely low interest rates and long maturity, so it would have been doable (although still not easily).

Instead Greece is stuck with a government that doesn't even want to enact pension age reforms that would bring Greece in line with the rest of Europe - norms which one Syriza member even compared to sub-Saharan Africa.

Yes, "helped" to leave, but not given a choice either. Greece has been in a depression for seven years, growth has been mostly negative or stagnant, this isn't working.

[Sarmatian]

Once Greece was bankrupt it would no longer have to service its crippling debts, freeing up its remaining tax base to actually support the country.


There is no legal mechanism for countries defaulting, it's not a person or a firm defaulting. As we've seen in Argentina's example. private American investment funds sued Argentina in the US and US court confirmed that Argentina needs to repay the money, irrespective of their default. Argentina didn't even get the rest of the debt written off, they instead got a deal with creditors, those creditors who didn't want to take it to court. After the court's decision, I doubt any creditors would be willing to make a deal.

Greece would be left with majority or all of its debt in dollars or euros. Devaluing their new currency wouldn't have any effect on that.

More importantly, Greece would be cut off from the international financial system. Finding creditors willing to lend would be extremely difficult. Greece would be forced to deal with BRICS, and that would be politically inconvenient for the West.


It would still need to reform, but it could do so with more breathing room. Most importantly the New Drachma would rapidly devalue against the Euro, causing an influx of German tourists who would regenerate Greece's service sector.

That is true, but think about that statement - "it would regenerate Greece's service sector". Service sector, like its name implies, is when someone pays for a service. The actual price of goods provided is miniscule compared to the price of service. Lowering the price of the service actually means lowering the price of human labour in the service industry.

In Serbia (then Yugoslavia actually), during the worst part of the crisis in the early nineties, the price of human labour was so small that everything was working 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Even small shops and street kiosks. Even if you don't sell anything, you basically had a security man for the night. You could pay him a yearly salary and that would be less than the price of an alarm system or a fence.

Greece wouldn't be that bad, but the example is indicative of just how much poorer would Greeks be.

It's a psychological thing - if Greece GDP was a 100$, and during the next 10 years it falls to 90$, everyone is angry. But if Greece defaults and its GDP fall down to 30$, and grows to 60$ during the next 10 years, everyone would be happy that economy is growing again, not understanding they are worse off in the long run. That would happen if Greece defaults and leaves the Eurozone.

[Husar]

So you want them to default?

Yes, but they can stay in the Eurozone, thereby devaluing the Euro to further boost out export-oriented economy with all the poor working people.


This begs the question of why your country didn't just give them money seven years ago instead of demanding loans with high interest rates (for a "rescue" package).

I hope you didn't expect me to be responsible for that or to have an answer.
Someone just had to punish them however for lying when they entered the Euro. And they couldn't be reasonably expected to put the responsible politicians on trial, so we had to ruin the entire country instead I assume.

[InsaneApache]

Why don't we just declare their debt nullified?
They can obviously not pay it back anyway so nothing really changes from where we are now, except that Greece can start to work normally again.
And then we do that with Argentina and a few other countries as well.
The market will then regulate itself to make sure it won't happen again.

What happens when Spain, Italy and Portugal do the same? It would be one hell of a shitstorm. I'll leave it to you EUrophiles to pick the bones out of that one.

[Husar]

What happens when Spain, Italy and Portugal do the same?

The Euro becomes so worthless that everybody wants to build factories here to benefit from the cheap production costs?
Prices of imported products would rise a lot but once all the factories are here, we won't have to import them anymore.

[Gilrandir]

It has always baffled me how human communities choose to be led by the biggest idiots available at the time of the election. I'd say the guys in the current greek government are up there on par with, or perhaps even beyond, the imbeciles we have in Romania.

PR and modern election technologies.



Met a random greek in an airport a couple of weeks ago and had a chat, asked him about the "real" situation since I tend to distrust the distortions made by the mass-media, but he confirmed that it's pretty bad for the average person or youngsters entering the field of work.

So you think that media distort things, but "random guy at the airport" sees the whole picture correctly?

[wooly_mammoth]

After several personal experiences where I witnessed for myself the two parallel dimensions, namely the "real" reality and the reality manufactured by the press, yes, I'm ready to put more weight on some random guy's opinion on the facts than on what the mass-media says.

[Beskar]

Why don't we just declare their debt nullified?
They can obviously not pay it back anyway so nothing really changes from where we are now, except that Greece can start to work normally again.
And then we do that with Argentina and a few other countries as well.
The market will then regulate itself to make sure it won't happen again.

This has been my position for a long time.

[InsaneApache]

The Euro becomes so worthless that everybody wants to build factories here to benefit from the cheap production costs?
Prices of imported products would rise a lot but once all the factories are here, we won't have to import them anymore.

No what would really happen is that the people living there would be reduced to living a third world hell like existence. Still that was always the plan all along.

[Greyblades]

Why don't we just declare their debt nullified?
They can obviously not pay it back anyway so nothing really changes from where we are now, except that Greece can start to work normally again.
And then we do that with Argentina and a few other countries as well.
The market will then regulate itself to make sure it won't happen again.
I think you are being facesious here but it is worth considering who holds greece's debt, I somewhat doubt it is all in the German national bank and I would think it impossible to get any other bank to just let it go and take the loss on the chin.

To get all the debt nullified would require buying it off the previous owners and it will not be cheap, you could end up spending more money to nullify the debt than you would simply bailing them out.

[Husar]

No what would really happen is that the people living there would be reduced to living a third world hell like existence. Still that was always the plan all along.

So the greek politicians faked the numbers to join the Eurozone in order to ruin their own country? Why are they not jailed yet?


I think you are being facesious here

A bit, yes.


but it is worth considering who holds greece's debt, I somewhat doubt it is all in the German national bank and I would think it impossible to get any other bank to just let it go and take the loss on the chin.

To get all the debt nullified would require buying it off the previous owners and it will not be cheap, you could end up spending more money to nullify the debt than you would simply bailing them out.

What could the previous owners do about it? As I already explained, if you make an investment with a high interest rate, that usually means there is a high risk. You have to be ready to take a loss or go for a lower interest rate. Not accepting a loss when it happens then makes you a crybaby and everybody should just ignore you. It's not like you "invest" in the lottery for a potential huge return and then make a fuss when you don't get that return. These investments have a far lower risk but you can still lose.

[Greyblades]

What could the previous owners do about it? As I already explained, if you make an investment with a high interest rate, that usually means there is a high risk. You have to be ready to take a loss or go for a lower interest rate. Not accepting a loss when it happens then makes you a crybaby and everybody should just ignore you. It's not like you "invest" in the lottery for a potential huge return and then make a fuss when you don't get that return. These investments have a far lower risk but you can still lose....what? The suggestion is to declare the debt nullified, you can't do that unless you own it and the oweners won't sell cheap to the government. And you can't just seize it unless you want to drive investors away from ever doing business with Greece again.

[Husar]

...what? The suggestion is to declare the debt nullified, you can't do that unless you own it and the oweners won't sell cheap to the government. And you can't just seize it unless you want to drive investors away from ever doing business with Greece again.

A government can do it unless the investors have the bigger armies. And that the investors may never want to do business with Greece again may happen, but that is how the market regulates itself. Some of them should not have lent their money to Greece in the first place while Greece will lose some future investments as it happens when you don't handle such things responsibly.
Who owns all the debt anyway? And when will the hedge funds/Paul Singer come to kick Greece while it's on the ground?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBxpT5ZhxNk

[Brandy Blue]

So the greek politicians faked the numbers to join the Eurozone in order to ruin their own country? Why are they not jailed yet?



Because they're politicians. :wall:

[a completely inoffensive name]

It's only a matter of time for Greece to leave at this point.

[Gilrandir]

After several personal experiences where I witnessed for myself the two parallel dimensions, namely the "real" reality and the reality manufactured by the press, yes, I'm ready to put more weight on some random guy's opinion on the facts than on what the mass-media says.
To rely on the opinion of one person to make conclusions about the life in a country?What if this random guy is a tycoon, or an extremist, or a politician pursuing his agenda, or a europhile, or a misogynist, or (God forbid) Putin? Would it make the picture he paints lop-sided? The selection must be more representative to make more or less accurate conlusions.

[rory_20_uk]

They cooked the books to get in. They continued to lie about their finances. The locals' favourite sport is tax evasion.

Unless the Germans continue to like paying for their cute pets by the Agean this can't work as getting the Greeks to act like Germans isn't realistic.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

It's only a matter of time for Greece to leave at this point.

Not yet, the baillout for the banks that help for Greece really is isn't over yet. All the money flows back and the Greeks are left with less than nothing. Pure plunder.

[Brenus]

"They cooked the books to get in. They continued to lie about their finances. The locals' favourite sport is tax evasion." Like in UK you mean?

"Unless the Germans continue to like paying for their cute pets by the Agean this can't work as getting the Greeks to act like Germans isn't realistic." I hope so.

[rory_20_uk]

UK budgets often get signed off by an independent audit office. I don't see that happening in Greece or the EU. Yes there is almost certainly tax evasion in all countries. It is extremely bad in Greece.

~:smoking:

[Gilrandir]

Yes there is almost certainly tax evasion in all countries. It is extremely bad in Greece.

Any facts or just a supposition?

[wooly_mammoth]

I thought that the fact that greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day. :shrug:

[Gilrandir]

I thought that the fact that greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day. :shrug:
Learned it from a random guy at a bus station?

[Brenus]

"I thought that the fact that Greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day." As far as I know, the Greeks pay their taxes like in UK, when they are paid, every month (week in my case as I am temp). So, the only one who don't pay taxes in Greece (and UK) are the "auto-entrepreneur", another word for slave, or the riches.
And, I was explained that if you tax the Riches, they go, so it is counter-productive as they are the jobs creators etc etc... Apparently Greece should imported workers as none of them pay taxes, according to the European Media...

[Husar]

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21565657-greek-tax-dodgers-are-being-outed-national-sport-no-more


GREEK officials used to shrug off tax evasion as “a national sport”.

:shrug:

[Kadagar_AV]

"I thought that the fact that Greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day." As far as I know, the Greeks pay their taxes like in UK, when they are paid, every month (week in my case as I am temp). So, the only one who don't pay taxes in Greece (and UK) are the "auto-entrepreneur", another word for slave, or the riches.
And, I was explained that if you tax the Riches, they go, so it is counter-productive as they are the jobs creators etc etc... Apparently Greece should imported workers as none of them pay taxes, according to the European Media...

I have talked with a few (3) greeks about it... And they all say tax evasion is MASSIVE, and that people more or less expect money for free from the state. Oh, and also that as soon as they entered EU and the monetary union people just started to borrow money like crasy. Not for any real use, but for luxury articles.

[Pannonian]

"I thought that the fact that Greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day." As far as I know, the Greeks pay their taxes like in UK, when they are paid, every month (week in my case as I am temp). So, the only one who don't pay taxes in Greece (and UK) are the "auto-entrepreneur", another word for slave, or the riches.
And, I was explained that if you tax the Riches, they go, so it is counter-productive as they are the jobs creators etc etc... Apparently Greece should imported workers as none of them pay taxes, according to the European Media...

Why do you live in the UK when you clearly hate it and the people here?

[Brenus]

"Why do you live in the UK when you clearly hate it and the people here?" If I clearly, do you mind to elaborate or to give some evidence where I show this hate?
And to answer your question I married an English...

And because I do, I expect others to do it as well:
I never deny that the Greeks (meaning the ones who can, as I said, their taxes are included in their salaries) tax evaded. My point is, one they are not alone (See D. Cameron in UK and "morally wrong" thingy), or Depardieu fleeing to Russia in order not to pay tax in France, two, I was told if you tax the riches they go somewhere else (they love their countries just enough to leave if they have to pay for hospitals, roads and schools) so you loose the elite of the Creme de la Creme, so you loose jobs as they are allegedly the jobs creators, reason why Greece should have full employment as they don't pay taxes so they should at least invest in diamonds, yacht and all these luxury shops...
I can't dodge taxes. Bankers could and did, can and do. I use Bankers as generic term.

So why Greece is not in full employment? After at least 7 years of remedies inflicted by IMF and Troika, all imposing solutions? So they are obviously not working. Why these vultures carry on to impose tax on pensions when Germany and Luxembourg (by the way Juncker is one who benefit of tax evasion) refuse to allow the Greeks to chase the Greek tax dodgers in their respective banks?

The bail out of Greece was not meant to save Greece but to save German and French banks. If Greece default, the European Mechanism will have to gear up and France and Germany will have to pay the Greek debt.

The propaganda against the Greeks was near racism: we could hear things like in the same time they are lazy and have two jobs, (civil servants being taxi was the frequent line). I don't know for you, but if I have a swimming pool and money for free, and a Swiss bank account (or in Luxembourg), I will not, repeat, not, going to drive a taxi from 4 in the afternoon to late in the night. And the legend of the pension at 50, of course...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I've known quite a few Greeks - all educated to be sure, but they all paid taxes. The impression I got was that your average Greek pays his taxes but the wealthy are dodgers. Essentially Greece has a larger version of the problem every country with professional accountants has.

[Crandar]

I've known quite a few Greeks - all educated to be sure, but they all paid taxes. The impression I got was that your average Greek pays his taxes but the wealthy are dodgers. Essentially Greece has a larger version of the problem every country with professional accountants has.
Paying the taxes depends on your profession.
The greatest tax-avoiders are the millionaires, who are too powerful to be annoyed with such trivial things, a great part of the small businessmen, to whom receipt is an unkown concept, and the vast majority of the free professionals, like doctors or electricians, who greet you by presenting you two options:
Paying the original price or paying the three quarters of the price, but without any receipt.

[drone]

My favorite anecdotal Greek tax-evasion story came from Brits, they said all the new buildings had "unfinished" top floors so the owners wouldn't have to pay property taxes, which were only collected upon completion. No idea if true or not.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Paying the taxes depends on your profession.
The greatest tax-avoiders are the millionaires, who are too powerful to be annoyed with such trivial things, a great part of the small businessmen, to whom receipt is an unkown concept, and the vast majority of the free professionals, like doctors or electricians, who greet you by presenting you two options:
Paying the original price or paying the three quarters of the price, but without any receipt.

So, essentially, the Western European prejudice about Greeks not paying taxes is correct?

That's disappointing.

I assume the employees of small businesses are paid in cash and therefore also don't pay taxes?

That would mean that the only people who do pay their taxes would be the corporations and those people paid directly by the state, like teachers.

[Gilrandir]

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21565657-greek-tax-dodgers-are-being-outed-national-sport-no-more

No, no, no!!! No lying media, please! Only random guys' opinions! Not even sure if ladies' evidence is accepted.


My favorite anecdotal Greek tax-evasion story came from Brits, they said all the new buildings had "unfinished" top floors so the owners wouldn't have to pay property taxes, which were only collected upon completion. No idea if true or not.
I don't know about Greece, but it is perfectly true in Gipsy communities in Moldova.
http://picturetank.com/___/series/60051e8c0c5a58227af67404ca98435f/en/o/MEM_The_Gypsies_women_of_Soroca_(44306).html
See the comment under the first picture to the right.

[Papewaio]

I know Taiwan had a novel (not sure if original) solution to getting taxes via making sure receipts were issued.

Each receipt at a store would have a unique number on it.

A unique lottery number for a state run monthly lottery.

I win a few minor prizes on it... Enough for coffee or a meal (1 coffee = entree, main meal and a tea).

[Crandar]

So, essentially, the Western European prejudice about Greeks not paying taxes is correct?

That's disappointing.

I assume the employees of small businesses are paid in cash and therefore also don't pay taxes?

That would mean that the only people who do pay their taxes would be the corporations and those people paid directly by the state, like teachers.
Yes, the prejudice is basically correct, although the populists' rhetoric about that concerning the vast majority of Greeks is an exagerration.

Regarding the employees, most of them are paid by checks, that's necessary, according to the state's laws and how Greek economy used to operate, but with the increased immigration and unemployment, many young men are obliged to join the black market:
Officially unemployed, but in reality, working for a tiny salary without any insurance. That is a common practice in the Aegean islands and that's why I discourage everybody from spending his vacations there.

[Furunculus]

Any facts or just a supposition?

https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

Select: "European Union and Western Europe"

[Kadagar_AV]

**** just hit the fan...

Will be an interesting time for the EU ahead...

[Brenus]

Yeah, the Greeks will decide by REFERENDUM... What? They will ask the Greeks citizens their opinion? Democracy in an EU member? The Commission will be p**** off!!!

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, the Greeks will decide by REFERENDUM... What? They will ask the Greeks citizens their opinion? Democracy in an EU member? The Commission will be p**** off!!!

There is a little more to it than that...

Greece has basically said "we will..." and "later we shall" and generally postponed the whole thing indefinitely... When placed against the wall, in our out, THEN they went like "Uuuuuuh, we need more time... This time for a referendum... So, six more months, a year is ok eh?"


No wonder the rest of Europe is pissed at them. They don't act in a honest way. Heck, they haven't since they joined the EU.



Kick greece to the wolves is what I say. Good riddance.

[Brenus]

"There is a little more to it than that..." Yes there is. Greece (former government(s) of) was help by the crook actually at the Head of the European Central Bank to cook the book in order to be part of European Union. The actual President of the European Union was the head of a State that actively encourage tax evasion as it profits from it.
European Union bailed out Greece few time in order to save their banking system, and for Greece to be able to pay all the military equipment Greece bought to Germany, including two sub-marines that don't really work.
For now more than 5 years, Greece is under a program of looting, sorry, austerity measures, that failed to create one job, put hundred of thousand in misery, but makes a lot of money for bankers and others vultures.
Undeterred by the total failure of their plan(s), the EU & IMF want to carry on in stockpiling debt on Greece.
The actual government was elected on a platform to stop this madness. The EU & IMF decide to go for the jugular, to make an example. Well, the actual Greek Government out-maneuver them.
Come on, let's Lagarde (actually the worst minister of finances France ever produce) and Joncker go to explain to the Greeks the benefit on long term of increasing the price of food and medicament and to decrease the taxes for the Riches.
You know, the Greeks are educated people and the plan is good, they will made sacrifices, as they did in the past.
The problem of course is all evidence prove the plan wrong: the Debt did increase, unemployment went up to the sky, no future for the youth, only air is left as everything else should be privatised (sold to the same who plunder the country).
So perhaps time to really tackle the problem with a realistic plan for the Greek population and Europe.

"Kick greece to the wolves is what I say": :laugh4:The funny thing is you can't. See, that the trouble when you follow only media's "experts". There is no mechanism to expel a country, as they are allegedly all equal. The same for Euro. So, that will be fun when Europe will want something, like extension on Russian's sanctions.
I foresee interesting time.

[InsaneApache]

Learned it from a random guy at a bus station?

My dad lived in Greece for ten years and it's endemic. It is indeed the national sport.

[InsaneApache]

My favorite anecdotal Greek tax-evasion story came from Brits, they said all the new buildings had "unfinished" top floors so the owners wouldn't have to pay property taxes, which were only collected upon completion. No idea if true or not.

I can assure you that this is indeed the case. All over Corfu you see this. I wondered why and asked my dad and that's what he told me, supported by Greeks themselves who actually sniggered . To them paying tax is an option. One they rarely take up.

[Furunculus]

I can assure you that this is indeed the case. All over Corfu you see this. I wondered why and asked my dad and that's what he told me, supported by Greeks themselves who actually sniggered . To them paying tax is an option. One they rarely take up.

i have seen the same in rhodes, and heard the same explanation from the locals.

you've never seen so many nearly attractive houses with reinforcing rods sticking out the top of the flat concrete roofs.

[Fragony]

There is a little more to it than that...

Greece has basically said "we will..." and "later we shall" and generally postponed the whole thing indefinitely... When placed against the wall, in our out, THEN they went like "Uuuuuuh, we need more time... This time for a referendum... So, six more months, a year is ok eh?"


No wonder the rest of Europe is pissed at them. They don't act in a honest way. Heck, they haven't since they joined the EU.



Kick greece to the wolves is what I say. Good riddance.

Who are the wolves really. Dutch, German and French banks are getting a baillout at the expense of everybody

[Kadagar_AV]

Who are the wolves really. Dutch, German and French banks are getting a baillout at the expense of everybody

I can volunteer my wolf if needed...

As a European tax payer I feel I have had enough with Greece and their dishonest entry and stay in the EU. Kick them out, let them suffer, make sure they serve as a warning example for other members who see the partnership that is the Union as something to steal and rob.

[Husar]

The Al Jaz has an interesting opinion on what this is all about:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/06/greek-referendum-machiavellian-plot-tsipras-150628060443154.html


A few days ago, in the euro summit on June 22, all indications were that Europe's political beasts and IMF representatives were ready to accept the latest proposal of the leftist Greek government that would have broken the five-month deadlock between Greece and its lenders.
[...]
But as it usually happens in situations of negotiations between ordinates and subordinates, master and slave, rich and poor, strong and weak, the more compromises the latter makes, the more compromises the former demands.

As such, the Greek proposals were suddenly found to be inadequate by the lenders and there were demands on their part for more blood and tears.


But this is a sham referendum, with Tsipras trying to hold on to his job, as the bailout programme expires on June 30, which means that this is now a referendum on whether or not Greece should remain in the eurozone.

Sounds a lot like we have two sides, each with its own nasty agenda...
I don't really feel like picking a side anymore, by now it seems like the rich win and the poor will suffer, regardless of nation or other such distractions.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I can assure you that this is indeed the case. All over Corfu you see this. I wondered why and asked my dad and that's what he told me, supported by Greeks themselves who actually sniggered . To them paying tax is an option. One they rarely take up.

It's interesting though, because there ARE Greeks paying taxes, and I have met Greeks who pay taxes so there must be a social class element here. I heard it's a relic of the Ottoman occupation, when the taxes went to Constantinople, so people did everything not to pay. Following on from that you had a German monarchy after "Independence" which likely didn't help matters.

Even so, the constant demands more cuts to pensions and wages are inhumane when the Greek economy has shrunk by 25% in the last five years.

[Brenus]

You heard the man. He doesn't care of Human Beings. He wants his money. He want them to suffer. Perhaps he will give some money to Save the Children or Doctors Without Borders in order to help the starving Greek babies. That will give him a warm feeling inside...
Nahhh, he won't.

[Crandar]

It's interesting though, because there ARE Greeks paying taxes, and I have met Greeks who pay taxes so there must be a social class element here. I heard it's a relic of the Ottoman occupation, when the taxes went to Constantinople, so people did everything not to pay.
That's a really lame excuse. The people usually had nothing against the Ottoman Imperial Government and even if they had, her bureaucracy was always rather efficient at collecting taxes.
The social classes that avoid paying taxes do so, because they can, due to the incompetence of the state and its inability to control the citizens and becuase they are immature:

Contrary to the popular belief, the reason for the rise of the Golden Dawn is the selfish Greek mentality, individualistic and misanthropic full of many common elements with the fascist ideology, not the increased levels of immigration.

[Kadagar_AV]

You heard the man. He doesn't care of Human Beings. He wants his money. He want them to suffer. Perhaps he will give some money to Save the Children or Doctors Without Borders in order to help the starving Greek babies. That will give him a warm feeling inside...
Nahhh, he won't.

I have no idea how that is what PVC say?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have no idea how that is what PVC say?

Actually, Kad, I think Brenus is riffing off your post at the top of the page.

[Kadagar_AV]

Actually, Kad, I think Brenus is riffing off your post at the top of the page.

Actually as did I...

I just wanted to urge him to work on his internet courtesy...


So to answer Brenus then:


You heard the man. He doesn't care of Human Beings. He wants his money. He want them to suffer. Perhaps he will give some money to Save the Children or Doctors Without Borders in order to help the starving Greek babies. That will give him a warm feeling inside...
Nahhh, he won't.

I do care about human beings. That's why we need politicians and nations to think both a second and third time about how they work on the international scene.

The way Greece has acted is predatory, it is a direct hindrance to the betterment of mankind. That is why I am so against it. When given an outstretched hand of brotherhood, they have done their utmost to suck the marrow from the bones.

Is this positive?


Greece has shown absolutely NO will to be a part of a larger construction than their own nation. They have done everything and anything they can to grab cash from EU...

As I said, they joined under false terms, and since then they have done absolutely nothing on the positive side.


I feel bad for the people of Greece... Of course I do. It's not like they generally know much about national economics or politics, the everyday guy there, just like everywhere else, is trying to make ends meet.

With that said, however, in a democracy you DO have a responsibility. Even as a "normal citizen", if a state fails.

And if we step up from the individual perspective and look at the nation at large, Greece is too old a democracy to be able to get away with "Uh we didn't get how it worked".

Somalia I can understand, forgive and expect to do **** like this, the world's oldest democracy? Not so much or as fast.


Greece bluffed their way in to the EU, grabbed all the money they could, and then explained they can't pay back. What other than "scorn" would you deem a proper reaction?


Jump off of that high horse of yours. Greece has acted in a socially not workable way and have to pay the cost (and let's face it, it's NOT like they'll actually ever do that, best we can hope for is SOME back).



Had this been ANYTHING but nations the tax-guys would be in the apartment with police to get the states money back. However, as it would be rather frowned upon to actually INVADE Greece and take our things back, some general scorn and hardships sure seem like mild punishment in my eyes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Seems to me all Greece needs to do to fix this is reform it's tax code - if people can get away with living in an "unfinished" house without paying tax, close the loophole. That one's actually quite easy - if you're living there and it's hooked up to electric it's a dwelling and you pay tax - regardless of whether you have a sloped roof or not. Aside from that, generally make the fines for tax evasion be four times the tax you should have paid. Doctors who are operating "under the radar" are presumably not updating patient histories, so they should be struck off and prosecuted...

While I don't want to see people suffer Kad is correct that your average Greek is partly responsible for this, they kept electing governments who perpetuated a tax system deliberately peppered with loopholes because that was what the electorate wanted.

[Brenus]

“I just wanted to urge him to work on his internet courtesy..” I just copied what you were posting as I always do. If you post things like you did, take responsibilities and admit you were out of line: “let them suffer” is actually your words, what you wrote.
So I reminded you we are speaking of human being, and the fact that “they” are babies and elderlies…

“make sure they serve as a warning example” You do realise of course that will remind the Greeks and other kind of “example”.

“Jump off of that high horse of yours. Greece has acted in a socially not workable way and have to pay the cost (and let's face it, it's NOT like they'll actually ever do that, best we can hope for is SOME back).” So you do recognise the actual “solution” from the EU & IMF’s financial coup will not work, as Greece can’t repay the debt. But you still want to do it as punishment… I sure the Greek millionaires who put their money in Luxembourg are very pleased with view like yours.

“Had this been ANYTHING but nations the tax-guys would be in the apartment with police to get the states money back.” Really? I don’t know where you live, but here in UK we are still waiting for ONE banker to be handcuffed for the financial collapse they created by pure greed, or for all illegal activities banks are actually fined for, from PPI (kind of assurance you were obliged to take if you wanted a loan, quite complex but judge as illegal by the Justice in UK as forced selling as you had no choice if you wanted a loan) to illegal agreement in exchange rates and so on.
Ooops, I hate England again...

[Fragony]

I can volunteer my wolf if needed...

As a European tax payer I feel I have had enough with Greece and their dishonest entry and stay in the EU. Kick them out, let them suffer, make sure they serve as a warning example for other members who see the partnership that is the Union as something to steal and rob.

The EU knew their numbers were wrong but because of preassure from europhiles they pretended they didn't know anything about it. Right now it doesn't looks like Greece is the one that blinks first. Greeks citizens and Northen Eurpean netto-payers are going to be screwed no matter what. Fuck the EU.

[Crandar]

Guys, the intention of reforms is turning Greece into a fully capitalist state with a completely free market, according to the ppreferences of our neo-liberal and capitalist world. Everybody knows that the debt is never going to be paid.
After all, why do they insist on the privatisation of state companies with a huge profit? That's quite a contradiction, if they indeed plan to balance the Greek state's financial sheet.

The EU knew their numbers were wrong but because of preassure from europhiles they pretended they didn't know anything about it.
Νο, they said nothing, because a common currency between strong and weak economies is really going to help the first. The combination of a strong currency and a weak economy means that your exports will decrease and your imports, coming mainly from western Europe or third-world countries in trade agreements with western Europe will increase. That's why everyone pretends that he was deceived by the plotting of some Greek amateurs.

[Fragony]

Worst is yet to come, Italy. Basicly already bankrupt, France is next. A devide between northen and southern regions is inevitable, everybody understands that but they pretend they don't.

[Kadagar_AV]

“I just wanted to urge him to work on his internet courtesy..” I just copied what you were posting as I always do. If you post things like you did, take responsibilities and admit you were out of line: “let them suffer” is actually your words, what you wrote.
So I reminded you we are speaking of human being, and the fact that “they” are babies and elderlies…

“make sure they serve as a warning example” You do realise of course that will remind the Greeks and other kind of “example”.

“Jump off of that high horse of yours. Greece has acted in a socially not workable way and have to pay the cost (and let's face it, it's NOT like they'll actually ever do that, best we can hope for is SOME back).” So you do recognise the actual “solution” from the EU & IMF’s financial coup will not work, as Greece can’t repay the debt. But you still want to do it as punishment… I sure the Greek millionaires who put their money in Luxembourg are very pleased with view like yours.

“Had this been ANYTHING but nations the tax-guys would be in the apartment with police to get the states money back.” Really? I don’t know where you live, but here in UK we are still waiting for ONE banker to be handcuffed for the financial collapse they created by pure greed, or for all illegal activities banks are actually fined for, from PPI (kind of assurance you were obliged to take if you wanted a loan, quite complex but judge as illegal by the Justice in UK as forced selling as you had no choice if you wanted a loan) to illegal agreement in exchange rates and so on.
Ooops, I hate England again...

No, you didn't quote anything. You probably just forgot.

You make it seem like Greece should take no responsibility for their political decisions? I understand that it will be harsh for some. Though.

That's what happens when you cheat and get caught. That's what happens when those trying to help get fed up with you. So honestly speaking, no, I don't have much pity for people who knew full well what they were doing, but did it anyway. They are a democracy, they can do as they want. They have choosen poorly, and now their bad decisions have caught up with them, and times will be harsh...

It's as easy as that.

[Fragony]

You should pity them, all the money that goes that way is just to save banks that made bad investments there, it flow directly back, because it's an EU country they thought their investments were safe. Turns out they aren't, you and me are paying their losses indirectly, and the ordinary Greek is so fucked, more than enough reason to pity them. It's all just a baillout of banks who screwed up *yay free money* and I don't blame Greece's new government for not rolling over.

[rory_20_uk]

The Greeks have less state support than the Slovaks do... and the Slovaks being in the EU are up till now being involved in giving them money as they spent too much.

~:smoking:

[Brenus]

“No, you didn't quote anything” So, in 61, you didn’t wrote “let them suffer” and in 55 “Kick greece to the wolves is what I say.”?

“You make it seem like Greece should take no responsibility for their political decisions? I understand that it will be harsh for some. Though.”
Political decisions? So, your problem is not the debt, but who the Greeks voted for. Your problem is not the former politicians who created the debt, but the ones who want a fair programme in order to develop the country in ending the plundering of their resources.
For some? Ah yes, the plebe. Because the ones who cheated, and don’t pay taxes, they are out of troubles. Suffering for suffering is your solution even if you know that the debt is impossible to pay. An economic policy designed to punish Greece or to make Greece able to go back on her feet and be part of Europe? Your choice is clear. But at least assume the consequences of it, malnutrition, suicides and others results in poverty stricken country. Will the Greek babies be punished enough?
And no, it is not what I am saying. I want a durable solution, human one...

“and times will be harsh...” :laugh4: Will be? Times were harsh, the Greeks did all the so-called solutions and the debt just increased. Nothing of what the EU & IMF did imposed worked, perhaps you didn’t notice.
Now, you don’t want to see it, because you want them to suffer. Fair enough, just the Greeks don’t want your solutions, want against your opinion a better future for the kids, and think against your resolution to see their grand-parents begging in the streets.

[Kadagar_AV]

“No, you didn't quote anything” So, in 61, you didn’t wrote “let them suffer” and in 55 “Kick greece to the wolves is what I say.”?

“You make it seem like Greece should take no responsibility for their political decisions? I understand that it will be harsh for some. Though.”
Political decisions? So, your problem is not the debt, but who the Greeks voted for. Your problem is not the former politicians who created the debt, but the ones who want a fair programme in order to develop the country in ending the plundering of their resources.
For some? Ah yes, the plebe. Because the ones who cheated, and don’t pay taxes, they are out of troubles. Suffering for suffering is your solution even if you know that the debt is impossible to pay. An economic policy designed to punish Greece or to make Greece able to go back on her feet and be part of Europe? Your choice is clear. But at least assume the consequences of it, malnutrition, suicides and others results in poverty stricken country. Will the Greek babies be punished enough?
And no, it is not what I am saying. I want a durable solution, human one...

“and times will be harsh...” :laugh4: Will be? Times were harsh, the Greeks did all the so-called solutions and the debt just increased. Nothing of what the EU & IMF did imposed worked, perhaps you didn’t notice.
Now, you don’t want to see it, because you want them to suffer. Fair enough, just the Greeks don’t want your solutions, want against your opinion a better future for the kids, and think against your resolution to see their grand-parents begging in the streets.

I sure did write that in post 61...

But if you look at post 64 you still, for the umpteenth time now, didn't reference.

DUDE, this is the most pointless debate I have seen on these boards since I joined 12 years ago. Congratulations. There are common courtesy of how to direct people. You fail with that.

I can accept your, still, non-standard way of bolding stuff instead of using the quote function on the page...

But when you do neither, nah. That's just bad form unless you direct the person who just wrote.


I am happy to have cleared it up for you.




MY PROBLEM WITH GREECE is that they have got exactly what they have voted for. And then they cry about it.

They are a democracy. If they don't like things, change it. It's not like they have some dictator over their heads?



Still don't read me wrong, I agree and believe that they have banks over their heads trying to control them... But again, they are a _democracy_.

They have a complete access to pretty much all the information in the world...



What they have decided to do with their days, such as watching Paradise Hotel instead of trying to fix their country, now comes back and bites them up the arse.

It for sure sucks to be them, and several more European countries will follow suit... But pity them for it? Nah!!

It's self inflicted, and for the nation who invented democracy, they really have NOTHING to blame.

[Brenus]

“But if you look at post 64 you still, for the umpteenth time now, didn't reference.” You’re right. I didn’t quote in this post, I comment on your post. And does it change something? No. You still express the idea to punish the Greeks and to make them suffer, and you want your money back. So what is your problem with my comment? It seems it reflects your opinion to me.

“There are common courtesy of how to direct people. You fail with that.” Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I tend to react when some humans wish other humans to suffer for no reason than to make them suffer. Can you precise where I fail with courtesy by the way?

“I can accept your, still, non-standard way of bolding stuff instead of using the quote function on the page...”:laugh4:You are too kind.

“I am happy to have cleared it up for you.” Good for you.

“for the nation who invented democracy,” and who invented as well Sparta, so…

[Fragony]

Doesn't look good, Greece is not paying the IMF and the banks are closed and drying up, only 50 euro can be walled a day. People are going to be really pissed if they can't acces their money

[Papewaio]

So who will ultimately pay for this?

Greece or will the rest of the EUs taxpayers end up paying the banks instead?

[Fragony]

So who will ultimately pay for this?

Greece or will the rest of the EUs taxpayers end up paying the banks instead?

Interestingly, Turkey wants to chip in. Greece and Turkey aren't exactly friends to put it mildly. This is getting weird, Turkey is big but economically it's a dwarf.

[Brenus]

"So who will ultimately pay for this?" France and Germany.

[Kadagar_AV]

So who will ultimately pay for this?

Greece or will the rest of the EUs taxpayers end up paying the banks instead?


The banks will take their responsibility and will rework the entire economic system, to something more suited for mankind... It's kind of like the moon project, only that the whole world is involved...

Also, the richest 1% have decided to give out 90% of their resources to help fund and start this project.

:laugh4:

[Kagemusha]

So who will ultimately pay for this?

Greece or will the rest of the EUs taxpayers end up paying the banks instead?

So far it has been EU taxpayers covering the losses of invest bankers, which is something most seem to ignore, while focusing on the public spending/ tax revenue of Greece.

In a free Global market it is beyond any reasoning why the situation is like this. Does not Capitalism apply to Capital any more?

[Husar]

So far it has been EU taxpayers covering the losses of invest bankers, which is something most seem to ignore, while focusing on the public spending/ tax revenue of Greece.

In a free Global market it is beyond any reasoning why the situation is like this. Does not Capitalism apply to Capital any more?

I think I've said this earlier, but making investments risk-free is indeed not right according to capitalis principles but very much wanted by people who make a lot of investments. And the fewer those are, the more power they wield.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"So who will ultimately pay for this?" France and Germany.

Fixed - you have to make a net contribution to the EU in order to be able to complain - bear in mind not all the money has come from Euro nations, but from all EU nations.

[Brenus]

"you have to make a net contribution to the EU in order to be able to complain" Err, France does.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start
But don't let reality spoils good prejudices...
Anyway, I was wrong. No one will as the EBC bought the Greek debts so pocked the interests, which, what piece of luck, is a little bit more than what Greece should have paid to the IMF...

[Husar]

There is one other important part of the revenue calculations: the UK rebate, which returns to the UK two-thirds of its payments.

This rebate is paid for by the other 26 countries as a fixed amount of their gross national income.

I do wonder, will I ever not find it funny to read this?
The one country that complains the most has a permanent bailout in its contract.

[Greyblades]

A real testimony to the EU; so incompetent not even bribes can make rich nations want a part of it.

[InsaneApache]

Whilst there are those here that blame the Greeks for 'cooking the books' to get into the Euro, don't forget that the PTB decided to allow them to join, knowing that the books had been done to a turn at gas mk 7.

You see to these people the 'project' is all' It must go on regardless. Ever closer union. What was is that Juncker said? Oh yes....“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue”.

Spoken like a true believer in democracy.

To force people into poverty, hunger and disease for an ideal is, sadly, something we've seen too often these last hundred years. What I find amazing is that there are some on these boards that not only defend that reasoning but support it.

....and some folks wonder why I want us out of this crypto-fascist organisation. Make no bones about it. The EU is anti-democratic and corporatist.

[Fragony]

Juncker is much creepier, quote is something like this 'people don't understand what we are doing, so we are going to press on until the point where there is no turning back.' Quote is not accurate, sure about the 'gin-tonic please' though

I didn't get it right it was out the top of my head, some more of that notoriously permanently drunk creep

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10967168/Jean-Claude-Junckers-most-outrageous-political-quotations.html

[Husar]

A real testimony to the EU; so incompetent not even bribes can make rich nations want a part of it.

I was only talking about one nationthat really doesn't want to be part of it, your argument is severely lacking and may even explode in your face when you consider that the one nation that complains the most is also the only one that gets bribed. Crybabies I say...


....and some folks wonder why I want us out of this crypto-fascist organisation. Make no bones about it. The EU is anti-democratic and corporatist.

Given that it has reigned in several corporate schemes which were bad for consumers and has, unlike most national governments, actually fined corporations for acting against market rules which theoretically also exist in the individual countries, I wonder how you arrive at this conclusion? The only corporations it may worship are banks, but that should be right up your alley. What would be left of London (and therefore England) if one removed the banks?

Juncker is a lawyer from a micro country that is just a huge bank (a bit like London) and provides mostly services for corporate tax evasion, so what can you expect?

[Fragony]

You can expect what should be expected if something is an idealogical projects first. I feel sorry for the Greeks, I never wanted this for them and I still don't. It's nonsense that the Greeks are being helped, banks who made stupid investments are.

Of course it's totally fine to really screw the Greece because of the federalist dream, and leave everybody with debts because of really poor investments. How about fuck you EU, sounds great to me at least. Can't help thinking of Greece being the kink in the cable of the EU and a democratic reamagening.

[rory_20_uk]

For banks to benefit, first off the Greeks had to borrow money. They were not coerced into doing this - they just tend to spend a lot more than they bring in through taxation.

Then they needed to lie on audit accounts for a long time so they can still borrow cheap money to spend at low interest rates.

Up until now, most of the money was private lending since most government debt is held privately by individuals / banks etc.

Then the government admits they were lying for years, the books are as good as fakes. The cost of lending goes up since people are worried that they'll not get their money back and people sell at a discount to get the hell out of the Greek economy.

The state needs people to take their debt so the local banks need to buy more and more of it. Eventually this is too much so then Europe needs to start buying close to worthless debt since the Greeks pull their own money out of banks and the bank credit to debt ratio goes off.

So, finally as in the UK the banks receive new money which wipes out all the existing shareholders - who in essence loose all their money. Those bad people like private investors and pension funds.

The only winners are the staff at the bank since in all but name the bank is a new bank with all the previous shareholders owning a tiny share - when the banks have been refloated it wasn't the previous shareholders who were given back the shares to compensate for the lost value..

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

There are 5 countries in the world without national debt.

Here how it works: http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

and here how its developing Globally: http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

[Sarmatian]

Tsipras urged Greeks on TV to vote No on Sunday.

Meanwhile, unofficial polls conducted show (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11705421/Most-Greeks-will-vote-Yes-in-make-or-break-bail-out-referendum-polls-suggest.html) that Greeks will likely vote Yes, astonishingly. I admit I'm surprised, I expected a landslide No victory.

Maybe getting a taste of mess they're gonna be in changed their opinion.

[Greyblades]

I was only talking about one nationthat really doesn't want to be part of it, your argument is severely lacking and may even explode in your face when you consider that the one nation that complains the most is also the only one that gets bribed. Crybabies I say...

Crybabies implies futile reisistance against inevitability, yet here we are, our membership is valued so much as to earn the only discount, hardly futile.

Seems like the EU thinks it needs us more than we need it.

[Crandar]

Meanwhile, unofficial polls conducted show (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11705421/Most-Greeks-will-vote-Yes-in-make-or-break-bail-out-referendum-polls-suggest.html) that Greeks will likely vote Yes, astonishingly. I admit I'm surprised, I expected a landslide No victory.
Their opinion has never changed, since the majority was always in favour of staying in the Eurozone, despite insisting that austerity should end. They always considered the return to a national currency as a bigger threat to them than the austerity measures.

Therefore, as a classical example of the immaturity of the Greek people, they contradict themselves and CORAL, the most accurate representative of their childishness also contradicted itself spectacularly, with the referendum and the embarassing renegotiations being the inevitable tragicomical result of its failure.

[Brenus]

"Meanwhile, unofficial polls conducted show that Greeks will likely vote Yes" And polls in UK showed Milliband winner and a UKIP tsunami... So much for polls... Only the result will be legitimate. And in Greece, few years ago, it was the Nazi who were supposed to win the elections won by Tsipras... We even had a discussion on this forum about this...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Meanwhile, unofficial polls conducted show that Greeks will likely vote Yes" And polls in UK showed Milliband winner and a UKIP tsunami... So much for polls... Only the result will be legitimate. And in Greece, few years ago, it was the Nazi who were supposed to win the elections won by Tsipras... We even had a discussion on this forum about this...

In fairness, the UK polls were only slightly out, but that made all the difference. It's a bit different with a yes/no referendum.

I was discussing this with my father (and am therefore drunkish) but we came ton the general agreement that if the Germans were aware of the book cooking they have to be at least partly to blame now. The other point we mostly agreed on was that having Greece in the EU and the Euro was more important to the oere EU leaders and the Commission than the economic reality because, in the end, what they are try to do is restore the Pax Romana (hence the keeness to include Turkey).

[HopAlongBunny]

Face up to it. It was never a "bail-out", rather its a daisy chain scam.
Money goes in, is eaten up by fees and interest, all additional money does is continue the cycle.
Realistically, the only way to get at the debt problem is either: repudiate the debt.full stop.; finance a huge boom to the economy that allows the debt to be paid.
That economic boom is not coming, never will.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/7/1/greek-bailout-money-went-to-banks-not-greece.html

[Brenus]

All other "bail out" were just to pay the debts in increasing the debt, not a sustainable solution, what the actual Greek government request. And a little bit of respect between equal (allegedly) partners.
And for the ones who believe a Greek Collapse will have no consequences, look at the banking system in Macedonia, Serbia, Albania, Romania and other Balkan countries, and who has the biggest share in the banking system. The EU of peace is preparing a mega war, like the IMF demands and the Yugoslav debt was the key ingredient in the Yugoslav wars.

[Fragony]

Face up to it. It was never a "bail-out", rather its a daisy chain scam.
Money goes in, is eaten up by fees and interest, all additional money does is continue the cycle.
Realistically, the only way to get at the debt problem is either: repudiate the debt.full stop.; finance a huge boom to the economy that allows the debt to be paid.
That economic boom is not coming, never will.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/7/1/greek-bailout-money-went-to-banks-not-greece.html

Yeah 'help' to Greece is just a covert baillout for banks. They leave Greece with insane interest rates they couldn't possibly pay and the netto-payers in the north are being screwed as well

[HopAlongBunny]

I would go further.
Like the housing bubble in the US, it can only continue as long as the "fiction of worth" can be maintained; if the chain breaks (as may happen shortly) and the debt is exposed as worthless ie: ain't worth the paper it's printed on...
Collapse! Panic! Buyers market on assets! Fire Sale!
Worst of all, Brenus might turn out to be right: revolution, war and the vulture merchants of war shall come to roost

[Fragony]

Why do think central banks want to get rid of cash (no bankruns, negative interests on savings) and the EU wants their own army that can be deployed in any EU country, I think Brenus is right as well.

The Bussels is a cancer.

[Gilrandir]

For banks to benefit, first off the Greeks had to borrow money. They were not coerced into doing this - they just tend to spend a lot more than they bring in through taxation.

Then they needed to lie on audit accounts for a long time so they can still borrow cheap money to spend at low interest rates.

Up until now, most of the money was private lending since most government debt is held privately by individuals / banks etc.

Then the government admits they were lying for years, the books are as good as fakes. The cost of lending goes up since people are worried that they'll not get their money back and people sell at a discount to get the hell out of the Greek economy.

The state needs people to take their debt so the local banks need to buy more and more of it. Eventually this is too much so then Europe needs to start buying close to worthless debt since the Greeks pull their own money out of banks and the bank credit to debt ratio goes off.

So, finally as in the UK the banks receive new money which wipes out all the existing shareholders - who in essence loose all their money. Those bad people like private investors and pension funds.

The only winners are the staff at the bank since in all but name the bank is a new bank with all the previous shareholders owning a tiny share - when the banks have been refloated it wasn't the previous shareholders who were given back the shares to compensate for the lost value..

~:smoking:
Like I said: have as little to do with banks as you can help.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

All other "bail out" were just to pay the debts in increasing the debt, not a sustainable solution, what the actual Greek government request. And a little bit of respect between equal (allegedly) partners.
And for the ones who believe a Greek Collapse will have no consequences, look at the banking system in Macedonia, Serbia, Albania, Romania and other Balkan countries, and who has the biggest share in the banking system. The EU of peace is preparing a mega war, like the IMF demands and the Yugoslav debt was the key ingredient in the Yugoslav wars.

The key ingredient in the Yugoslav wars was the death of Tito, the EU has no Tyranos holding the Union together, so it is unlikely to break apart in the same way. War within the EU remains unlikely, as does a war started by an EU member. The most likely military threats are Russia ans Turkey. In the former case economic collapse would be seen as a sign of our general moral weakness and the ineffectiveness of our governmental system (democracy). This might spur Putin or another Russian leader to try to annex territory on the periphery of the EU. Moldova is likely to be the first target as it is neither an EU to a NATO member, but it has a mutual defence pact with Romania which has the potential to drag the rest of us in. In the same vein if Turkey continues to deteriorate politically and Greece economically then the Turks might decide to move troops into the Balkans on the pretext of guaranteeing Turkish security (and nabbing some of what we took from them). At some point economic deterioration will cause the British to remove troops from Cyprus and then Turkey might try to annex it, triggering a war within NATO between Turkey and Greece. There's not guarantee Turkey would win that war, by the way.

[Gilrandir]

the EU has no Tyranos holding the Union together
Frau Kanzlerin?

[Sarmatian]

The key ingredient in the Yugoslav wars was the death of Tito,

I'd say the key ingredient was economic issues. Why should someone in A pay for someone living in B and vice versa. Two decades/several wars later, we're all worse than we were.

There's a lesson in there somewhere....

[Papewaio]

I'd say the key ingredient was economic issues. Why should someone in A pay for someone living in B and vice versa.

The step from clan to country is the ability to redistribute wealth at a country level...

[Sarmatian]

The step from clan to country is the ability to redistribute wealth at a country level...

That works when there's enough of it.

Or better yet, we can't be sure if we've made that step from clan to country until we've seen how we act when the going gets tough.

[Papewaio]

That works when there's enough of it.

Or better yet, we can't be sure if we've made that step from clan to country until we've seen how we act when the going gets tough.

Exactly, it also applies to the EU. Maybe it's time that the EU acted in its best interest for all its citizens and not the interest of the banks.

[Brenus]

The problem is EU doesn't want citizens. EU wants consumers, market and cheap labour, and the upper-class apparatchiks don't realise (or don't want to) that 1st and 3rd don't go together.

[Husar]

The problem is EU doesn't want citizens. EU wants consumers, market and cheap labour, and the upper-class apparatchiks don't realise (or don't want to) that 1st and 3rd don't go together.

Indeed, usually you outsource the misery of #3 to another country, the citizens of which can't unelect you.

[HopAlongBunny]

Perhaps no more than florid rhetoric, but is the characterization of the creditors as terrorists accurate?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33393759

The threat of harm looms large, as well as the near complete evasion of any culpability in the present crisis.
So is this what it has come to in finance? "Pay or we, and our allies will break you!"
Yes, there are two sides in every debacle; are the lenders indeed blameless?

Or, maybe such heated rhetoric misses the point.
The IMF apparently released a report calling for debt relief, and a stretching of time lines:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0P40EO20150703

But why did it become a dirty secret instead of a blueprint for resolution?

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=43044.0

[Brenus]

http://www.marianne.net/sites/default/files/5012-100235256.jpg

Perhaps...

[HopAlongBunny]

Perhaps there are other justifications for the hard-line rhetoric, but you may well be right Brenus :bow:

[Pannonian]

http://www.marianne.net/sites/default/files/5012-100235256.jpg

Perhaps...

The barricades of freedom...etc. I think I prefer hearing songs about foreign revolution to seeing it in my own country. Perhaps you could hop over to Paris for the establishment of your Eighth Republic, or whatever number you've got to now.

[Brenus]

"The barricades of freedom...etc" The title of the Painting is "Liberty Leading the People".... I hate to have to explain allegories...

"Perhaps you could hop over to Paris for the establishment of your Eighth Republic, or whatever number you've got to now." V, so we have to for the VI.:yes: Working on this actually... Need a new one as the old V was not aware of new problems as Global Warming and international Greed (but not only)...
BTW, good new version of "foreigner go back in your country"...:2thumbsup:
Still no news about my alleged hatred for England?

"I think I prefer hearing songs about foreign revolution to seeing it in my own country." Yeah, I imagine. There is always some.
Anna Marly described it in the Chant des Partisans: "There are countries where people in their bed have dreams, Here, we, you see, we walk, we kill and we die. Friends, in the night, do you hear Freedom calling us".
https://youtu.be/uTMe6-6VSuQ
Ooops, wrong one, sorry
https://youtu.be/1hjwicn_evs?list=RD1hjwicn_evs
If you think oppression in your country is acceptable, be free to submit. And a revolution can be democratic... You know, population going to vote for real changes and getting them...

I was in a Revolution once (Serbian one), it is a great thing when a country stop to accept oppression. It is a great hope, only hope but hope. It can turn nasty, and the good guys don't always win, but at least they tried.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That works when there's enough of it.

Or better yet, we can't be sure if we've made that step from clan to country until we've seen how we act when the going gets tough.

Economic issues were, of course, a central part of the argument but the country was, I would argue, a pressure cooker kept below critical pressure by Tito. When Tito died he left a power vacuum and it was the subsequent bickering amongst the elite that led to war rather than just political breakup.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Frau Kanzlerin?

Merkel?

(I had to look that up)

No, I would say not, not only is she unlikely to survive another election but she's not even a powerful leader within Germany - Germany has influence over the EU but Merkel is no Empress to whos beat the Germans march.

[Brenus]

"No, I would say not, not only is she unlikely to survive another election". She didn't last time. She governs within a coalition with the Socialists, or pretending to be socialists...

[Husar]

Merkel and the CDU/CSU won 72 seats and a considerable amount of votes in the last election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_2013

She had to enter a coalition with the SPD because her preferred partner, the FDP, lost so many seats tha they didn't even make the 5% of votes required to get seats in the parliament. The other three parties couldn't make a coalition because noone wants to partner with the left and SPD and Greens alone didn't have enough seats either.
The point is, if Merkel continues to gain like that, she may become supreme ruler and not need a coalition anymore.
At the moment it looks as though the results may not chang ea whole lot with the next election:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_German_federal_election
If the FDP can make it to 5% again, she will probably enter a coalition with them and then politics may become even more business friendly than with the current fake-socialists.
Of course, things can still happen that change the results.

[Brenus]

60 % voted no. Polls you said?

[Crandar]

60 % voted no. Polls you said?
The far-right leader of the opposition and ex-prime minister announced his resignation.
I am happy with the "non", as that disappointed the hilariously panicked media and is going to perfectly demonstrate the contradiction of CORAL, with its populist and unrealistic ideas.

[HopAlongBunny]

61% No apparently.
"Uncharted waters" here we come; indeed we may embark on a new Age of Exploration :)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/05/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0P40EO20150705

[HopAlongBunny]

Just curious.
Since blackmail and coercion didn't quite go as planned, will the "techs" now advance the IMF proposal?
It does not prostrate Greece on the altar of finance, but it is a "face saving" alternative, with the added cover of "Well those guys recommended it".

[Brenus]

Media actively engage in the war propaganda against Greece.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

61% No apparently.
"Uncharted waters" here we come; indeed we may embark on a new Age of Exploration :)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/05/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0P40EO20150705

On a 61% turnout, which works out as about 37% of the electorate saying "no", an even smaller proportion saying "yes" and the largest contingent not casting a vote at 39%.

[Strike For The South]

Cut them loose. The Eurozone should have never gone south of France or east of Austria. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Maybe Russia can repatriate a few more square KMs of land in the name of eastern Christendom.

[Fragony]

Counting is done, it's a no. Can't blame them considering how unreasonable the demands were

[Brenus]

"On a 61% turnout, which works out as about 37% of the electorate saying "no", an even smaller proportion saying "yes" and the largest contingent not casting a vote at 39%." Unfortunately a trend in all democratic countries. WE have now government and parliaments elected by minorities but still acting as they are the majority.

[Fragony]

Democracy what's, handy map of what we voted for, we got the EU-constitution anyway they just called it something else and shoved it up our ass https://mobile.twitter.com/BartNijman/status/617757360644325376/photo/1

[Sarmatian]

15717

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"On a 61% turnout, which works out as about 37% of the electorate saying "no", an even smaller proportion saying "yes" and the largest contingent not casting a vote at 39%." Unfortunately a trend in all democratic countries. WE have now government and parliaments elected by minorities but still acting as they are the majority.

While true it's worth noting that referendum turnout, especially at times of national stress is usually higher. In the UK the Blair years saw a fall in turnout, from a general average of 71% down to 59% in 2001, before gradually climbing to 65% in 2010 and 66.1% in 2015. We're not quite up to pre-Blair levels, but it's getting there and turnout in the Scottish referendum was over 90% in some places.

[Greyblades]

http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/pay-debts-greece-ball.gif

[Brenus]

Because Germany and France always paid debts?.... What a short memory these countries have?

[InsaneApache]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai43B588_co

and people call him an extremist!

BTW the look on Tspiras' face is priceless.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai43B588_co

and people call him an extremist!

BTW the look on Tspiras' face is priceless.

It must be pretty rough when the guy saying nice things about you is the one telling you you have to leave the Euro.

Another thought for you - everybody talks about how the Greeks should be more "discipled" i.e. German but nobody things the Germans should be more Greek.

[Husar]

Another thought for you - everybody talks about how the Greeks should be more "discipled" i.e. German but nobody things the Germans should be more Greek.

That's how it appears, but one could say the people who want Germany to hand over more money to Greece for no return and with no hope of growth want Germany to act more Greek.

[lars573]

That's how it appears, but one could say the people who want Germany to hand over more money to Greece for no return and with no hope of growth want Germany to act more Greek.
But if you want a functional federation with a common currency that's what has to happen. Most other federal states do it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Wait, there are people still trying to keep Greece in the Euro? I think the idea of a united Europe is great but come on people...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's how it appears, but one could say the people who want Germany to hand over more money to Greece for no return and with no hope of growth want Germany to act more Greek.

Maybe but...


But if you want a functional federation with a common currency that's what has to happen. Most other federal states do it.

This - Greece can't pay its debts itself, the only way that Greece can pay its debts is for the Eurozone to take on common liability and borrow with commons bonds. This would hurt Germany, which is why the Germans won't agree to it.

Farage was basically right, except that the Eurozone never became a proper economic union, because you still have separate debt.

[Pannonian]

This - Greece can't pay its debts itself, the only way that Greece can pay its debts is for the Eurozone to take on common liability and borrow with commons bonds. This would hurt Germany, which is why the Germans won't agree to it.

Farage was basically right, except that the Eurozone never became a proper economic union, because you still have separate debt.

It's the same argument re:sterling and an independent Scotland.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's the same argument re:sterling and an independent Scotland.

Possibly the biggest reason the referendum got a "no"

[Husar]

This - Greece can't pay its debts itself, the only way that Greece can pay its debts is for the Eurozone to take on common liability and borrow with commons bonds. This would hurt Germany, which is why the Germans won't agree to it.

Farage was basically right, except that the Eurozone never became a proper economic union, because you still have separate debt.

Yes, Farage and like-minded people usually make sure that all the things the EU introduces are half-arsed and therefore lead to problems such as this. If Europe had been properly integrated politicially before the introduction of the Euro, this might have been preventable.
We still don't even have an EU army, but having an integrated NATO command structure is somehow okay.

[Pannonian]

Yes, Farage and like-minded people usually make sure that all the things the EU introduces are half-arsed and therefore lead to problems such as this. If Europe had been properly integrated politicially before the introduction of the Euro, this might have been preventable.
We still don't even have an EU army, but having an integrated NATO command structure is somehow okay.

Without proper budgetary union, I'm not sure how the other aspects of political union, such as a common defence and political structure and all that, would have helped here. You can impose a common uniform on all schoolchildren as well, and it still won't help if significant chunks of the common politic can't agree on how the money system should work.

[Husar]

Without proper budgetary union, I'm not sure how the other aspects of political union, such as a common defence and political structure and all that, would have helped here. You can impose a common uniform on all schoolchildren as well, and it still won't help if significant chunks of the common politic can't agree on how the money system should work.

Yes, we should have created a full union where each former nation is a state of the new federation.

[Kagemusha]

Yes, we should have created a full union where each former nation is a state of the new federation.

In that case Eu should first become a democracy.Same applies to the army you mentioned as well. Without checks and balances,pardon my french..No way in hell.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, Farage and like-minded people usually make sure that all the things the EU introduces are half-arsed and therefore lead to problems such as this. If Europe had been properly integrated politicially before the introduction of the Euro, this might have been preventable.
We still don't even have an EU army, but having an integrated NATO command structure is somehow okay.

This is not a problem with a small number of perverse politicians - remember all the failed referenda for the EU Constitution? Then there was the thing where Ireland had to vote twice to accept the Lisbon Treaty...

The masses have no appetite for becoming a Federal Union, many of the countries involved are ALREADY Federal Unions, they don't want to be subsumed under another level of government.

So, again, Farage is basically right - whether you believe in the dream of the EU or not, it's been done backwards and the wheels are in danger of coming off.

[Husar]

This is not a problem with a small number of perverse politicians - remember all the failed referenda for the EU Constitution? Then there was the thing where Ireland had to vote twice to accept the Lisbon Treaty...

The masses have no appetite for becoming a Federal Union, many of the countries involved are ALREADY Federal Unions, they don't want to be subsumed under another level of government.

So, again, Farage is basically right - whether you believe in the dream of the EU or not, it's been done backwards and the wheels are in danger of coming off.

I said Farage and like-minde people, not just like-minded politicians.
So people vote no in referenda but do not vote in sufficient numbers for UKIP and other parties to get out of the half-arsed, obviously faulty thing that the EU is right now. Does that mean that the masses want this to be a mess? It appears as though most people are just led around by the established parties and the press, does that not make it the fault of the masses that we are in this insufficient state in Europe?

You can't blame the politicians that you reelect all the time. Maybe if you voted for someone else, but in a democracy that still means that most of your fellow nationals, with whom you supposedly have so much in common, still wanted someone else.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I said Farage and like-minde people, not just like-minded politicians.
So people vote no in referenda but do not vote in sufficient numbers for UKIP and other parties to get out of the half-arsed, obviously faulty thing that the EU is right now. Does that mean that the masses want this to be a mess? It appears as though most people are just led around by the established parties and the press, does that not make it the fault of the masses that we are in this insufficient state in Europe?

You can't blame the politicians that you reelect all the time. Maybe if you voted for someone else, but in a democracy that still means that most of your fellow nationals, with whom you supposedly have so much in common, still wanted someone else.

It has been shown, time and again, that across Europe people vote on the basis of domestic issues, not EU-related ones. Things are different at the EU level where there actually are a lot of Eurosceptic politicians, enough to demonstrate that there isn't the political will for a true Federation. The problem is that, by and large, the EU project has progressed without the consent of the masses, so people were voting for lower taxes or for a better transport system, or cuts to the military after the Cold War and meanwhile the EU project marches on in the background until suddenly Germans wake up one morning and discover that the Greek national debt is now their problem.

It's like a relationship, if you want it to succeed then you have to compromise, if you don't want it to compromise then your own self-interest is more important to you than the relationship. If the other EMU nations want Greece to remain in the Euro then they have to pay for it themselves, up front, and not "loan" Greece cash it can never pay back.

It should have been clear to everyone this wasn't going to work back in 1992 when Soros forced Britain out of the EERM - and toppled the last Conservative Government in the process.

[Pannonian]

I said Farage and like-minde people, not just like-minded politicians.
So people vote no in referenda but do not vote in sufficient numbers for UKIP and other parties to get out of the half-arsed, obviously faulty thing that the EU is right now. Does that mean that the masses want this to be a mess? It appears as though most people are just led around by the established parties and the press, does that not make it the fault of the masses that we are in this insufficient state in Europe?

You can't blame the politicians that you reelect all the time. Maybe if you voted for someone else, but in a democracy that still means that most of your fellow nationals, with whom you supposedly have so much in common, still wanted someone else.

I'm quite happy with a half-arsed EU, if by that you mean a common market, common mentality which allows us to work in concert as a political and economic bloc, and I'd like us to work even closer as a military bloc a la NATO, whilst still accepting that different states have different interests. I'm wary enough of my country's government to want more interactions with them, and I certainly don't want closer involvement with an even more remote government. It doesn't mean I reject involvement on an individual level with the rest of the EU; I feel even closer to other Europeans than even to Americans and other Anglophones. Possibly except for Antipodeans, who are essentially English with a different accent.

[Pannonian]

It has been shown, time and again, that across Europe people vote on the basis of domestic issues, not EU-related ones. Things are different at the EU level where there actually are a lot of Eurosceptic politicians, enough to demonstrate that there isn't the political will for a true Federation. The problem is that, by and large, the EU project has progressed without the consent of the masses, so people were voting for lower taxes or for a better transport system, or cuts to the military after the Cold War and meanwhile the EU project marches on in the background until suddenly Germans wake up one morning and discover that the Greek national debt is now their problem.

It's like a relationship, if you want it to succeed then you have to compromise, if you don't want it to compromise then your own self-interest is more important to you than the relationship. If the other EMU nations want Greece to remain in the Euro then they have to pay for it themselves, up front, and not "loan" Greece cash it can never pay back.

It should have been clear to everyone this wasn't going to work back in 1992 when Soros forced Britain out of the EERM - and toppled the last Conservative Government in the process.

At least the England-Scotland relationship is up front with the realities and the solutions.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11732926/Crippled-Greece-yields-to-overwhelming-power-as-deal-looms.html

After all that it looks like the Greek government would rather bow than accept leaving the Euro, so the pain continues, Greeks get poorer and the EU is even further from genuine, meaningful, reform.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The bankers get what they want. This is why the EU vision was dead from day 1.

[Brenus]

"After all that it looks like the Greek government would rather bow than accept leaving the Euro, so the pain continues, Greeks get poorer and the EU is even further from genuine, meaningful, reform." Not yet. Don't trust media that told you the Yes vote was leading... They had it wrong once, they might have it again.
BTW, read what the Greek Parliament voted for. You might be surprised, and probably find out that the description offered by your link is at least, misinforming or plain and blunt lies.
It put the last decision in EU hands, whatever the outcome will...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Brenus, can you please stop posting like Yoda? I know you can manage English syntax better than that.

If it's all lies I'd like a counter-link, please, because from where I'm sitting they basically agreed to all the things rejected in the referendum, pension cuts, tax rises and sell-off of state assets.

[Sarmatian]

Brenus, can you please stop posting like Yoda? I know you can manage English syntax better than that.

If it's all lies I'd like a counter-link, please, because from where I'm sitting they basically agreed to all the things rejected in the referendum, pension cuts, tax rises and sell-off of state assets.

It's really difficult to tell without knowing the exact wording, because it isn't all that simple. For instance, IMF wanted to raise the pension age to 67 iirc - Greek government agreed to that but wanted it to start in 2022, or something like that.

Everyone understands that there's a need for serious reforms in Greece. The Greek government wants them to be a little less severe and implemented gradually over the next 10-15 years while creditors want them implemented yesterday.

[Husar]

So if I have a relatively low income and already took a credit of 100k€, and then I go to my bank, will they give me another credit of 20k€?

And if they do and I end up unable to pay it back, is it entirely my fault?

This is what happens when you are too optimistic, you only get disappointed... :end:

People gave Greece and homeowners more money than they should have given them and now they demand their money back because the bonus payments for exceptional performance are due.

[Husar]

I take everything back, the only thing that matters is that everyone can make a profit from the economic downturn (from 2011 but sounds as relevant as ever):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC19fEqR5bA

[Sarmatian]

It can amaze just how economists sometimes don't understand economy.

I'm backing Picketty on this one - restructure and write off a chunk of the internal European debt.
After that, find some big projects (20bn, 50bn, a 100bn euros) that can kickstart the economy.

[Brenus]

"So if I have a relatively low income and already took a credit of 100k€, and then I go to my bank, will they give me another credit of 20k€?". Yeap if what they can recover after your bankruptcy is old unwashed clothing...
They will go for a plan which will allow you to live and reimburse the debt.

However, for states and Banks, it is different.

If your are a bank, the Government back you up, make a private debt (yours) a public debt (tax payers) then imposes drastic cuts and pretends/convinces that the population is guilty of spending too much, and imposes austerity on the poorest. You can keep your bonuses, houses, change mistresses and cars as you were, oops, sorry, are, one of the best and you will go somewhere else if someone want to take the money you stole, ooops again, earned in selling dubious products or toxic assets. Do not fear jail or even some Court Proceedings, the Government will not allow this to happen.
If you are a State (a big one as Germany in 1953) or with a powerful protector (Iraq after USA invasion) your debt is written off.It never existed anyway. Your debt became odious as the one of Cuba after USA invasion (I know, I know).
The troubles start only if you are a small State, and you are from another political agenda than the ones that precisely put your country where you are, and to whom the same shouting at you now gave the monies without a whisper or a question.
It is not economy, it is politic.
All know Greece cannot repay, but with a signature on a treaty that every one knows can't be honoured, money would been given to Greece in order to pay the Submarines Greece bought from Germany (as part of the former agreement) and the Rafales to France. And Greece debt would have rise-up again, as it did with the same plan 5 years ago.
I almost forgot all this crisis is due to comfortable pensions and lazy civil servants having 2 jobs who could access free money to buy swimming pools. :laugh4:

[Gilrandir]

After that, find some big projects (20bn, 50bn, a 100bn euros) that can kickstart the economy.
These bn euros have been given more than once yet the economy is still where it was. How can you be sure the new bns would do it this time?



I almost forgot all this crisis is due to comfortable pensions and lazy civil servants having 2 jobs who could access free money to buy swimming pools. :laugh4:

I know that Greek engine drivers were (or still are?) paid a 5000$ bonus yearly for washing their hands.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johan-norberg/european-endgame_b_935428.html
I believe other professions could (or still can?) boast of similar incomes. If suchlike bonuses are what they are fighting for to keep, how can they get out of the hole dug by reckless wage policies?

[Fragony]

You could as well call it a hostile takeover, deal is made. Sorry Greeks, it wasn't me. Any coincidence that eurocrats have interests in the things you have to hand over to the EU.

nomnomnom

[Sir Moody]

These bn euros have been given more than once yet the economy is still where it was. How can you be sure the new bns would do it this time?


Those payments were to balance the books not to fund the economy - Samatian is essentially suggesting the EU should cut out the Greek government and fund some big projects directly to try and kickstart the economy.

[Fragony]

Those payments were to balance the books not to fund the economy .

Ya, it's a covert baillout at the expense of the Greek economy and the Greece people, it's not right to do this. Many things go wrong there but at least have some pity for those who's fault it isn't. Wrong investments, gob them up yourself, there is always a risk.

adition, why the que force a country to make the retirement age higher when there is a huge youth-unemployment? Is that stupid or is it stupid, pick one. And can't take all their means and expect them to recover. It's so... whatever. I don't want Greece to leave the EU mind you, I want the Netherlands to, most of us do.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So - now the Americans are taking notice: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/killing-the-european-project/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto&_r=2

"Suppose you consider Tsipras an incompetent twerp. Suppose you dearly want to see Syriza out of power. Suppose, even, that you welcome the prospect of pushing those annoying Greeks out of the euro.
Even if all of that is true, this Eurogroup list of demands (https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/620272062771429377/photo/1) is madness. The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup (https://twitter.com/hashtag/ThisIsACoup?src=hash) is exactly right. This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief. It is, presumably, meant to be an offer Greece can’t accept; but even so, it’s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for."

[rory_20_uk]

Yadition, why the que force a country to make the retirement age higher when there is a huge youth-unemployment? Is that stupid or is it stupid, pick one. And can't take all their means and expect them to recover. It's so... whatever. I don't want Greece to leave the EU mind you, I want the Netherlands to, most of us do.

There are not a finite number of jobs, nor are there that many jobs only Greeks can do. So, increasing retirement age reduces state costs and does not block jobs that would then automatically fall to the young. The reason there are no jobs is their appalling infrastructure, sclerotic job market and lack of industries that create anything.

~:smoking:

[Crandar]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

[rory_20_uk]

In many cases they are being forced to do what they were requested to do 5 years ago and have spent the last few months undoing.

Debts eventually have to be paid or written off which has its own penalties. Unless they thought retiring at 55 in a country that makes practically nothing, has no IP and frankly no way to pay its way the people were at best wilfully in denial.

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

The Germans, Benelux countries, Austrians and Finnish were pushing for Grexit right until the end of last night. Greece can thank France, Italy and Spain for even these more harsh terms being offered.

I sincerely hope that the Greek parliament will not accept the terms of EU. It would be better in the long run for both EMU and Greece if Greece would see themselves out from Euro and leave the door open for those whose economy is not suited for a strong currency while they make their exit.

[Brenus]

So, Tsipras can now go back to Greece and ell them: Do you want to stay in this Europe? Will you accept this diktat? And if he does, how much will welcome all others solutions than the European one?
And this is the end of the EU. Submit or die...
The worst is I voted for EU... Long ago, before money took over... I had the dream... Well, the reality is I helped to built the power that is oppressing us now... A little bit like my communist grand-father after Budapest. I know now how he felt... ~:mecry:

[Pannonian]

So, Tsipras can now go back to Greece and ell them: Do you want to stay in this Europe? Will you accept this diktat? And if he does, how much will welcome all others solutions than the European one?
And this is the end of the EU. Submit or die...
The worst is I voted for EU... Long ago, before money took over... I had the dream... Well, the reality is I helped to built the power that is oppressing us now... A little bit like my communist grand-father after Budapest. I know now how he felt... ~:mecry:

Maybe you should follow the British view that the EU is better off as a common market, an economic bloc when dealing with the outside world, and a people united in their belief in liberal democracy, and not push for anything more than that.

[Kagemusha]

Maybe you should follow the British view that the EU is better off as a common market, an economic bloc when dealing with the outside world, and a people united in their belief in liberal democracy, and not push for anything more than that.

I think you are right that this crisis clearly shows how far from Federal state EU really is.

[Papewaio]

It would be funny if China or Russia put up the money for Greece...

The current bailout reminds me more of the post WWI demands on Germany rather then the Marshall plan to rebuild Europe.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, an agreement was signed, which is inevitably and unsurprisingly much worse (for Greece) than the revious ones. Well, Greece and her government got what they deserved. Apparently, the Nazi Germans did not succumb to the stratagems of Leonidas and his South Movement.
I wonder how the sheeple that cheered at the night of the referendum will react now that their "leftist" leader abandoned them.

The Greek economy is collapsing and the country is in danger of joining the Third World. No people deserve that, certainly not for irresponsible fiscal policy.

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.


In many cases they are being forced to do what they were requested to do 5 years ago and have spent the last few months undoing.

Debts eventually have to be paid or written off which has its own penalties. Unless they thought retiring at 55 in a country that makes practically nothing, has no IP and frankly no way to pay its way the people were at best wilfully in denial.

~:smoking:

Greece has already made considerable cuts, and all that has happened is the economy has shrunk faster than the debt. Tax rises will simply produce more tax evasion, especially in a climate where people have almost no money to begin with. The worst part is the forced sell off of profitable assets that will further beggar the Greek state.

At least now we know the Germans are finally over World War II because their politicians are back to being merciless and inhumane (not a Nazi reference, btw).

[Brandy Blue]

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.




I don’t think you understand the gravity of the situation. If the Greeks were guilty of no more than bathing in the blood of Arian children, it would be easy to deal with. The European Court would fine them for discrimination, the Greeks wouldn’t pay but would promise to bathe in the blood of children of all ethnic groups in proportion to their population within the EU, and everyone would turn a blind eye when the Greek government fiddled the numbers to make it look like they’d kept their promise. After all, you can’t combine 503 million people from 28 countries and no one knows how many ethnic groups without turning a blind eye to a certain amount of weirdness. Besides, bathing in the blood of children is just as cultural as the French habit of making unhygienic cheese just because it tastes better.
However, the Greeks are guilty of something much worse. They have repeatedly and perniciously been poor in a way that shows up the short comings of how the EU and the Euro have been implemented. It's amazing how much suffering they've inflicted on themselves and others out of sheer mulish obstinacy.

They have compounded this crime by electing and being deceived by bad leaders, an action which every democracy has performed, but which suddenly becomes criminal as soon as it's convenient to tell the electorate that they got the leadership they deserved because they aren’t all experts on politics and economics.
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Greece does get expelled, at least from the Euro zone, maybe from the EU. So we might as well blame them so no one will have to feel bad about it.



At least now we know the Germans are finally over World War II because their politicians are back to being merciless and inhumane (not a Nazi reference, btw). Bit rough on the Germans, or is this a joke I was too humorless to get?

[Pannonian]

I don’t think you understand the gravity of the situation. If the Greeks were guilty of no more than bathing in the blood of Arian children, it would be easy to deal with. The European Court would fine them for discrimination, the Greeks wouldn’t pay but would promise to bathe in the blood of children of all ethnic groups in proportion to their population within the EU, and everyone would turn a blind eye when the Greek government fiddled the numbers to make it look like they’d kept their promise. After all, you can’t combine 503 million people from 28 countries and no one knows how many ethnic groups without turning a blind eye to a certain amount of weirdness. Besides, bathing in the blood of children is just as cultural as the French habit of making unhygienic cheese just because it tastes better.
However, the Greeks are guilty of something much worse. They have repeatedly and perniciously been poor in a way that shows up the short comings of how the EU and the Euro have been implemented. It's amazing how much suffering they've inflicted on themselves and others out of sheer mulish obstinacy.

They have compounded this crime by electing and being deceived by bad leaders, an action which every democracy has performed, but which suddenly becomes criminal as soon as it's convenient to tell the electorate that they got the leadership they deserved because they aren’t all experts on politics and economics.
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if Greece does get expelled, at least from the Euro zone, maybe from the EU. So we might as well blame them so no one will have to feel bad about it.


The British electorate in general, and the Scottish electorate in particular, have had a political discourse on precisely those economic points that seem to elude the Greek politicians. Is it too much to expect professional politicians to have a better grasp of economics than a population numbering millions?

[Brandy Blue]

The British electorate in general, and the Scottish electorate in particular, have had a political discourse on precisely those economic points that seem to elude the Greek politicians. Is it too much to expect professional politicians to have a better grasp of economics than a population numbering millions?

Sorry, but I don't see the connection between what you are saying and what I said. I never suggested that the Greek politicians should not have known better. I did suggest that the Greek voters, who were not AFAIK exposed to any such discourse, might be excused for not knowing better than their leaders. Or is your point that the Greeks should have listened to the BBC?

[Crandar]

The Greek economy is collapsing and the country is in danger of joining the Third World. No people deserve that, certainly not for irresponsible fiscal policy.

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.
Well, they deserve it, if they have been short-sightedly focusing their economy on how to get as much money as possible from the EU, inspite of being instructed to the contrary, and when that farce eventually stopped, they chose to elect a couple of opportunistic politicians, whose promises every Greek knew they were contradictory (euro without austerity).

Well, you reap what you sow and I hope that this small adventure will teach the Greeks that they are not God's chosen people. But mentioning Fallmerayer is still a tabboo over there...

[Fragony]

Let the French, Benelux, and German banks reap what they sowed I'd say. Without troubling the Greeks and most importantly me.

[InsaneApache]

The Greek economy is collapsing and the country is in danger of joining the Third World. No people deserve that, certainly not for irresponsible fiscal policy.

A few years back, when I was visiting my dad over there, I got talking to an ex-pat who'd lived in Greece since the 80s. He told me that when he first came to Greece there were more people riding around on donkeys then there were driving cars. So yes, it is a third world country propped up by rich EU nations. I also remember him saying that if they ever left the Euro/EU then that's what the Greeks would have to go back to. BTW the last time I was there there were more Beemers and Mercs around than you could wave a stick at.

The country has no industry to speak of. We in Yorkshire have more railways than the whole country for instance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_of_Greece. So how they hope to get out of this mess is a mystery.

Just an anecdote. In 2001 I went to Corfu with some friends, when Greece still had the Drachma. A beer cost around 500 Drachma, about a quid in those days. Fast fowards to 2004 when I went to Crete, (Knossos was a BIG disappointment btw) they had changed to the Euro and beer was now 2.5/3 Euros a giant hike to about 2 quid a beer. So in the space of a year or so they doubled their prices. It gets even better.

When the crisis hit and visitor numbers fell off a cliff what did the Greek businesses do? The opposite of what any good businessman would do if you can't shift your stock. They put the price up. That's right, they couldn't sell a beer for 3 Euros so they hiked the price to 4 Euros. Moronic doesn't even start to cover it.

Pater says that the problem is a long term brain drain, with the brightest and best departing the country leaving the idiots behind. He has no love for the Greeks after living amongst them for 10 years. Who am I to judge? :smug:

Oh another anecdote for you. They believe that fairies and goblins live in the woods. I've heard it with my own ears. Explains a lot.

Oh I nearly forgot about the endemic corruption. Nothing and I mean nothing is done in Greece unless you cross a palm with silver. From buying a ferry ticket to getting a telephone installed. Not to mention the other national sport of ripping people off.

[Crandar]

Pretty much everything you listed is accurate, except for the goblin part, which is utterly ridiculous. Whoever told you that, he was just trying to laugh at you.
Anyway, that's not important, but as you said, the worst part of the Greek people live in the islands and Crete.

It's not a coincidence that especially in the north, most people despise them and I personally consider them to have a fascist attitude. Gun ownership and murder percentages are top high, the clientele system is impregnable, in some drug villages the state and the police have no authority and they have a code of honour close to the Pashtuns.

Recently, a Cretan student was forced to commit suicide, because he was not "masculine" enough, according to his backward compatriots. Of course, their attitude towards the tourists isn't very different.
If you want to visit Greece, I would suggest the northern part. Less corrupted individuals, more archeological sites, lower temperatures and a bit better organised, thanks to the prolonged Ottoman occupation.
It's not a coincidence that the better-informed Slav tourists come exclusively to northern Greece.

[InsaneApache]

Pretty much everything you listed is accurate, except for the goblin part, which is utterly ridiculous. Whoever told you that, he was just trying to laugh at you.

It wasn't one person it was several. A Czech guy my dad was friends with told me, that ex-pat I mentioned told me and when I asked my dad he confirmed it. A deeply superstitious naive people. Like I said, only the idiots left behind.

I agree with you about the islands though. The mainlanders look at them as ignorant bumpkins.

[Crandar]

Goblins (orcs and cratures like that) were never part of the Greek mythology. Never. Not during antiquity, medieval times or the ottoman occupation. There isn't even a word for them, when the public learnt about them, after having played TES and watched LotR, they just called them using the english word.
Don't get me wrong, the Greeks are highly supertstitious, with the highest theist percentage in Europe, but their superstition concerns the conspiracy theories, christian miracles performed by images of Virgin Mary and the sainthood of some monks, who are considered as modern prophets.
Equally stupid with the fairy tales, but let's be precise.

[Sir Moody]

Goblins (orcs and cratures like that) were never part of the Greek mythology.

This is entirely correct - Goblins are from French/British mythology (thought to be similar to the Germanic Kobold)

[Gilrandir]

It would be funny if China or Russia put up the money for Greece...

Russia doesn't have the money, China doesn't have the reason.

[Kagemusha]

The Greek economy is collapsing and the country is in danger of joining the Third World. No people deserve that, certainly not for irresponsible fiscal policy.

The way people talk about the Greeks you'd think they all bathed in the blood of Arian children.

What on earth are you talking about?




Greece has already made considerable cuts, and all that has happened is the economy has shrunk faster than the debt. Tax rises will simply produce more tax evasion, especially in a climate where people have almost no money to begin with. The worst part is the forced sell off of profitable assets that will further beggar the Greek state.

At least now we know the Germans are finally over World War II because their politicians are back to being merciless and inhumane (not a Nazi reference, btw).

Have you heard of the saying: " Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach man to fish and feed him for a life time" ?

What the offered package essentially does, is that it puts Greek economy under the supervision of the other EMU countries, whom actually have been able to take care better of their economies.

The package does not mean robbing Greece, but giving endless amount of bailouts would mean robbing both Greece and the rest of the EMU countries tax payers.

I also do not understand how many portray the possible default and Grexit. Look at Iceland. After their default they are now better off and their economy is enhancing. There is no point hanging into Euro, if the currency is not suited for Greece, but if they decide to hold unto it no matter what cost, then i dont see any other option then EU taking control of their economy and turning their economy into more suited of Euro. Which is essentially victory for more pro Federalist elements of EU.

If Greece wants to become vassal of EU then they should take the package. If not, they should Grexit. Life goes on, no matter what they do, unlike what the market wants everybody to believe.

[Montmorency]

It seems all of you are missing the fundamental point that Greece and Germany had put each other in such a desperate position that the only possible outcome was (and will be) an escalating series of faits accompli.

What else could Germany do? What else could Greece do?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm talking about a 25% contraction in five years and 50% of young people without jobs.

Oh - and Greece might run out of beef by the end of the month.


Have you heard of the saying: " Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach man to fish and feed him for a life time" ?

Have you heard the story about the time the Spartans offered to free the Athenians from Tyranny and the Athenians refused, saying they'd do it themselves?


What the offered package essentially does, is that it puts Greek economy under the supervision of the other EMU countries, whom actually have been able to take care better of their economies.

And what does this teach the Greeks? It teaches them to hate the rest of the EMU for their hardships and not to take ownership of any success, as soon as the EMU countries leave Greece will change direction. Greece has to dig itself out of the hole, it shouldn't get a bailout - rather it should get a complete writedown on ECB and EMU debt. That money is gone, at this point the rest of the EMU area is pouring money into Greece to service debts the Greeks owe them. It's a snake eating it's own tail, because every go round the money is being siphoned off in fees, graft and expenses and everybody is gradually getting poorer.

Greece cannot may its debt, so cancel the debt and let the Greeks figure out how to run the economy without outside help.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

and a bit better organised, thanks to the prolonged Ottoman occupation.

The Eastern Roman Empire called - it would like to talk to you about its administrative system. It seems unlikely the Ottomans had a net positive influence, the amount of graft in modern Greece is best explained by a repressed population - same as Russia - rather than an in-bred indolence or native corruption. If your yardstick for administrative efficiency is the hated Turk it's not surprising corruption is the national sport.

[Montmorency]

Greece cannot may its debt, so cancel the debt and let the Greeks figure out how to run the economy without outside help.

The problem is, Germany is deathly-afraid of seeing that through. So afraid that they would rather, as you say, feed the snake its own tail by indefinitely and indirectly servicing Greek debts owed to their own banks.

Just like Russia, Germany has driven itself into a really tight spot with European economic cooperation, and so must re-assert some of its latent authoritarian bluster to bluff away disaster.

If we're going to indulge in ancient allusions, then recall the Athenian maxim to the Melians:


The strong do what they can, while the weak suffer what they must.

This maxim was never quite right. You see, it is the strongest of us who chafe most against their chains.

A corrected version would read:

'The strong do what they must until the weak have suffered what they can.'

[Montmorency]

'The strong do what they must until the weak have suffered what they can.'

I rather like that, actually. Let's have done with "justice" and "blame".

[Brenus]

So, that is it: IMF officially said that European plan won't work as Greece won't be able to pay debts. So, that is official, the Financial Coup implemented by the EU is just for political punishment, not for development and growth...
So Tsipras and his incompetent bunch were all along right.
Greece poorest will become beggars, unemployment will go up, GDP will shrink. And EU will have to pay the bill anyway and betrayed the reason why EU was built for.
UK will vote against EU, then who's next? Spain, Italy? France (well we did, but it was ignored by politicians)?

But at least, these lazy Greeks will suffer, which is exactly what some want...

[Kagemusha]

So, that is it: IMF officially said that European plan won't work as Greece won't be able to pay debts. So, that is official, the Financial Coup implemented by the EU is just for political punishment, not for development and growth...
So Tsipras and his incompetent bunch were all along right.
Greece poorest will become beggars, unemployment will go up, GDP will shrink. And EU will have to pay the bill anyway and betrayed the reason why EU was built for.
UK will vote against EU, then who's next? Spain, Italy? France (well we did, but it was ignored by politicians)?

But at least, these lazy Greeks will suffer, which is exactly what some want...

Nope. What IMF is saying is that EMU countries have to forgive some of the Greek debt additionally to the bailout package for the Greek debt to become manageable.

I think EMU countries should just force an Grexit and then give direct emergency aid to Greece. Holding Greece artificially in the Euro will be just endless drain of money. Hopefully Greek parliament will understand that also and say no today.

[Fragony]

So, that is it: IMF officially said that European plan won't work as Greece won't be able to pay debts. So, that is official, the Financial Coup implemented by the EU is just for political punishment, not for development and growth...
So Tsipras and his incompetent bunch were all along right.
Greece poorest will become beggars, unemployment will go up, GDP will shrink. And EU will have to pay the bill anyway and betrayed the reason why EU was built for.
UK will vote against EU, then who's next? Spain, Italy? France (well we did, but it was ignored by politicians)?

But at least, these lazy Greeks will suffer, which is exactly what some want...

'Financial coup', indeed, I couldn't call it anything else.

[Crandar]

The Eastern Roman Empire called - it would like to talk to you about its administrative system. It seems unlikely the Ottomans had a net positive influence, the amount of graft in modern Greece is best explained by a repressed population - same as Russia - rather than an in-bred indolence or native corruption. If your yardstick for administrative efficiency is the hated Turk it's not surprising corruption is the national sport.
The Ottoman Empire took great care to establish an articulate and efficient bureaucracy, including one of the first welfare systems, called waqf. She cared about her subjects as much the British or the Hapsburg Empires did.
Unsuprisingly, the Greek mountain populations, accustomed to their lifes of banditry and the absence of any centralised authority, desperately tried to avoid fullfilling their obligations as citizens of the Ottoman Empire.

Of course, that wasn't the case in Macedonia, where the populations learned to appreciate the positive consequences of the revided trading routes, the redistribution of land, the elimination of local barons or the establishment of an advance railway system and etc., but unfortunately the Greek state was formed by the southerners, who're still holding most of the legislative, executive and judiciary power.
Think of Greece, like Italy being ruled by the backward south and the remnants of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.

[Montmorency]

^^^ Such advanced irony not even Husar could apprehend.

[Kagemusha]

European commission is proposing a emergency loan of 7 billion euro to Greece. I think we are about to find out how much solidarity Greece will get from non Euro, EU countries like UK, Sweden and Denmark.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/15/european-commission-proposes-using-uk-contributions-towards-greek-bailout

[InsaneApache]

Oh the UK will pay up they always do. They'll make a song and dance about it but they will pay up.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The Ottoman Empire took great care to establish an articulate and efficient bureaucracy, including one of the first welfare systems, called waqf.

Having systematically demolished the previous Greek bureaucracy. I suppose my point here is not quite obvious, so I'll try again in more bland terms. Greece basically invented bureaucracy for Europe, and formalised the theory of the Polis, the relationship between the citizen and the state. All the things that make modern Western Democracies work were invented and refined in Greece, then filtered and further refined in Rome before being revived and adjusted during the Renaissance.

During the Middle Ages there were no functional "states" in Western Europe, we had "nations" that were collections of people with a roughly common language and culture but they were fluid and heavily dependent on a small aristocracy to keep them together. Meanwhile, in Eastern Europe the Roman Empire was hanging on tooth and nail and repeatedly recovering from disaster after disaster. The tide of history might have been coming in, but it is a testament to the resiliency of the Roman State that it took about eight centuries of constant pummelling by various Muslim powers to topple the last Emperor, and that there were periods of recovery.

So, if you're looking back into Greek history and describing the Ottomans as "occupiers" then it follows that modern Greeks are the direct descendants of the last vestige of the Roman Empire and thence a direct descendent of Classical Antiquity. I'm clearly not the first person to advance this point, because modern Greece is modelled on Classical Greece - the capital is Athens, there's a modern Sparta and a modern Corinth.

So maybe the problem isn't Greek society, but the Greek national mythos that only looks as far back as the Ottomans rather than to the period before that when Greece controlled its own destiny.

Maybe that's because the Greeks failed to retake Constantinople, I don't know.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

European commission is proposing a emergency loan of 7 billion euro to Greece. I think we are about to find out how much solidarity Greece will get from non Euro, EU countries like UK, Sweden and Denmark.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/15/european-commission-proposes-using-uk-contributions-towards-greek-bailout

You'll be surprised because...


Oh the UK will pay up they always do. They'll make a song and dance about it but they will pay up.

...we're real Europeans. Weird isn't it? You'd think we'd be the most humbug of EU members, but if you look at the history of the UK in the EU you'll find an overwhelming tendency towards common solidarity, which is the source of our opposition of political union.

[Gilrandir]

And Finland may have its government down because of Greece:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/12/finlands-parliament-in-favour-of-forcing-greece-out-of-the-euro-says-report

[Crandar]

Having systematically demolished the previous Greek bureaucracy.
Roman bureaucracy.


I suppose my point here is not quite obvious, so I'll try again in more bland terms. Greece basically invented bureaucracy for Europe, and formalised the theory of the Polis, the relationship between the citizen and the state. All the things that make modern Western Democracies work were invented and refined in Greece, then filtered and further refined in Rome before being revived and adjusted during the Renaissance.
Our modern institutions have been firstly invented by the flourishing city-states of Sumer, in southern Mesopotamia. Thanks to the continuous imitation, they were gradually adopted by their neighbors (Akkad, Assyria, Hittites, Lydia an etc.), until they reached Greece. What you decribe is a common misconception, dominant due to the fact that for historical reasons, we have much concerning the matters of Greece compared to that about the Semite or Iranian civilizations.
The Phoenician cities had an equally complicated bureaucracy with their Greek counterparts.

That being said, although the Roman Empire was, at first, bacially a collection of cities with a varied level of autonomy, it is true that after the reforms of Diocletian, a proper bureaucracy was established. However, when the Ottomans set their foot on the Balkan Penninsula, there was no more an organised state, just a plethora of warlike baronies (the collapse of the Serbian Empire caused the creation of 23 petty kingdoms).

Crushing those statelets and replacing them by a highly centralised authority, which focused on internal stability and not on how to capture the goats of the neighboring noble, was one of the biggest contributions to humanity made by the Ottoman Empire. The existence of a large state made possible the realisation of more ambitious projects, from irrigation to roads and hospitals.

It's not a coincidence that the first cracks on the imperial structure came from the most underdevelopped regions, like southern Greece, a land infested with bandits and nomads, with little interest in values that didn't belong to their tribalism.

[Kagemusha]

And Finland may have its government down because of Greece:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/12/finlands-parliament-in-favour-of-forcing-greece-out-of-the-euro-says-report


I dont know how you read the article, but Finland´s two largest parties of the ruling government coalition are against further bailouts and the majority in our parliament are of same opinion. I think most know already that Finland is pretty like minded with Germany in this issue.

[Fragony]

Oh the UK will pay up they always do. They'll make a song and dance about it but they will pay up.

Don't you have the Irish for that, Bono works every time

[Montmorency]

Roman bureaucracy.


Our modern institutions have been firstly invented by the flourishing city-states of Sumer, in southern Mesopotamia. Thanks to the continuous imitation, they were gradually adopted by their neighbors (Akkad, Assyria, Hittites, Lydia an etc.), until they reached Greece. What you decribe is a common misconception, dominant due to the fact that for historical reasons, we have much concerning the matters of Greece compared to that about the Semite or Iranian civilizations.
The Phoenician cities had an equally complicated bureaucracy with their Greek counterparts.

That being said, although the Roman Empire was, at first, bacially a collection of cities with a varied level of autonomy, it is true that after the reforms of Diocletian, a proper bureaucracy was established. However, when the Ottomans set their foot on the Balkan Penninsula, there was no more an organised state, just a plethora of warlike baronies (the collapse of the Serbian Empire caused the creation of 23 petty kingdoms).

Crushing those statelets and replacing them by a highly centralised authority, which focused on internal stability and not on how to capture the goats of the neighboring noble, was one of the biggest contributions to humanity made by the Ottoman Empire. The existence of a large state made possible the realisation of more ambitious projects, from irrigation to roads and hospitals.

It's not a coincidence that the first cracks on the imperial structure came from the most underdevelopped regions, like southern Greece, a land infested with bandits and nomads, with little interest in values that didn't belong to their tribalism.

Leaving aside the noxious chauvinism, this is simply not correct. The Balkans have always been underdeveloped precisely due to the absence of central authority. The Ottomans did not introduce central authority at all, but simply emphasized and perpetuated the separation of the Balkans from the larger European and Mediterranean economy while establishing a different nominal suzerainty over the region. In other words, the Balkans suffered peripheralization after religious and political schisms left Byzantium standing alone between Moslems and Catholics, and that peripheralization was only exacerbated by the onset of Muslim domination over the area. Ottoman investment was minimal, as the Balkans were a warzone throughout the late Middle Ages, and afterwards stabilized into a mere geographic buffer between Anatolia and Central Europe that was ultimately even less valuable to the sultans than it was to the autokratores. So religious and political divisions compounded the existing lack of infrastructure in the Balkans, making the rise of Northern Europe not just something the region was unable to tap into, but also a shift in continental center-of-gravity that essentially condemned even Greece as fly-over - sail-past? - country.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Roman bureaucracy.

No, not since Heraclitus at the latest, it was a Greek bureaucracy run by Greeks for a Greek Basileus. The system as it developed increasingly owed more to Hellenistic-era Greek kingdoms than it did to the Latin Roman Emperors.


Our modern institutions have been firstly invented by the flourishing city-states of Sumer, in southern Mesopotamia. Thanks to the continuous imitation, they were gradually adopted by their neighbors (Akkad, Assyria, Hittites, Lydia an etc.), until they reached Greece. What you decribe is a common misconception, dominant due to the fact that for historical reasons, we have much concerning the matters of Greece compared to that about the Semite or Iranian civilizations.
The Phoenician cities had an equally complicated bureaucracy with their Greek counterparts.

None of this is relevant - here in the West we read Plato, Aristotle, Xenaphon, Plutarch... we don't read anything from Iran, from any period. So, for the West, Greece and Rome are the model.

Now, it has been said that the Greece we in the West see is not the Greece that actually exists, but rather Greece as we would have it be.


That being said, although the Roman Empire was, at first, bacially a collection of cities with a varied level of autonomy, it is true that after the reforms of Diocletian, a proper bureaucracy was established. However, when the Ottomans set their foot on the Balkan Penninsula, there was no more an organised state, just a plethora of warlike baronies (the collapse of the Serbian Empire caused the creation of 23 petty kingdoms)

Why was there no more state? Because the Muslims and the Latins had crushed it in successive invasions.

what you're basically saying is the Greeks are a people with no pride in their history and no sense of common benefit. That's pretty sad, given that the same area you have being pooing on is the area that spawned both the Mycenaean Kingdoms and the later Classical City-States, as well as being the cradle of Western Philosophy in the wider sense (as opposed to Middle or Far-Eastern philosophy.

[Gilrandir]

I dont know how you read the article, but Finland´s two largest parties of the ruling government coalition are against further bailouts and the majority in our parliament are of same opinion. I think most know already that Finland is pretty like minded with Germany in this issue.

From the article:


The decision to push for a so-called “Grexit” came after the eurosceptic Finns party, the second-largest in parliament, threatened to bring down the government if it backed another rescue deal for Greece, according to public broadcaster Yle.

The word "threatened" presumes that someone influential within the coalition was of a different opinion.

[Kagemusha]

From the article:


The word "threatened" presumes that someone influential within the coalition was of a different opinion.

The third and smallest party of the coalition: National Coalition party is very pro EU to the point of pro federalism, but they are a minority in the coalition and have to bend to the will of the other two, Center party and the aforementioned Finns party who are in favour of Grexit. So the wording of the article is bit uneducated or rather sensationalist like the press tends to be.

In any case now with Greek Parliament saying yes last night. It is pretty much up to German Bundestag, whether the deal with Greece will be approved or not, as they have to ratify it. I am quite sure that Holland, Belgium, Finland, Austria and others will follow the lead of Germany in this affair.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What the hell was the Greek government trying to do. Just leave and rebuild, who is going to look kindly on a party that defied a clear mandate from the people?

[Fragony]

What the hell was the Greek government trying to do. Just leave and rebuild, who is going to look kindly on a party that defied a clear mandate from the people?

Ask the Dutch and French as well as the Greeks. The EU just calls it something else and pushes things through anyway without any democracy involved. The European constitution was renamed to the Lissabon treaty, it's exactly the same thing but French and Dutch referendums could be ignored. Greece is so screwed. They have no choice but lending money to pay their debts, which sucks them down even more. In the meantime the vultures are circling over all their state-owned possesions. Talk about a heist.

[Montmorency]

What the hell was the Greek government trying to do. Just leave and rebuild, who is going to look kindly on a party that defied a clear mandate from the people?

Well, here's a rundown:

1. Greece economy :daisy:. Germany won't help because Germany doesn't want to pay for its continental empire the way America has historically done.
2. Syriza elected in Greece on basis of maintaining Euro AND avoiding austerity.
3. EU/Euro is predicated on economic and cultural union while (nominally) maintaining national sovereignty.
4. In previous negotiations, it was always government vs. government. Here, Tsipras called out a referendum to make it more explicitly (German) government vs. (Greek) nation - IOW, testing the limits of the sovereignty principle in modern Europe.
5. Germany doesn't want to take sovereign responsibility, but neither does it want Greece to leave the Euro. And as previously-stated, just forgiving the debt is too risky (from a German national perspective).
5.a. Please don't forget that Germany has always had nationalist governments since reunification, even if it was too subtle for some to see (or if they chose to ignore it).
6. Germany takes a chunk out of the sovereignty principle by demanding supra-national (read: German) administrative intervention to guarantee that Greece does what is best for the European community (read: Germany).
7. Hot vote but Greek parliament passes the deal.
8. Germany has to ratify in the next day.

Again, Syriza/Tsipras had no real alternatives. They were between a rock and a hard place.

It's funny, but basically he was playing realpolitik. There was no way he could actually get the people what they wanted, or even anything close to something his own party could endorse (hence the schism in the parliamentary vote), but the idea was just to prompt a new schedule for negotiating negotiations and to get European money flowing back in just in time to make the debt payments in July (20) and August necessary to prevent complete economic collapse and Grexit.

[Crandar]

No, not since Heraclitus at the latest, it was a Greek bureaucracy run by Greeks for a Greek Basileus. The system as it developed increasingly owed more to Hellenistic-era Greek kingdoms than it did to the Latin Roman Emperors.
The emperor was called Heraclius. Anyway, since they identified themslelves as Romaoi, while considering the term "Greek" as an insult, I think that called them Greeks is inaccurate. Let's not allow the propaganda of the modern state to manipulate us.

None of this is relevant - here in the West we read Plato, Aristotle, Xenophon, Plutarch... we don't read anything from Iran, from any period. So, for the West, Greece and Rome are the model.
We are talking about political not intellectual institutions. None of those chaps played any rome in the structural formation of the modern western states.


what you're basically saying is the Greeks are a people with no pride in their history and no sense of common benefit. That's pretty sad, given that the same area you have being pooing on is the area that spawned both the Mycenaean Kingdoms and the later Classical City-States, as well as being the cradle of Western Philosophy in the wider sense (as opposed to Middle or Far-Eastern philosophy.
The problem is quite the opposite. The Greeks are unfortunately too proud of their history, which is a direct cause for their immaturity, as we witnessed it during the recent referendum and elections. They blame the foreigners for everything that upsets them and they decribe their history as a series of betrayals, made by the west, which has the duty to defend Greece... Their xenophobia against Turks, Albanians and Slavs is almost perfectly reflected in the Macedonia Name dispute and the rise of the Golden Dawn.

Leaving aside the noxious chauvinism, this is simply not correct. The Balkans have always been underdeveloped precisely due to the absence of central authority. The Ottomans did not introduce central authority at all, but simply emphasized and perpetuated the separation of the Balkans from the larger European and Mediterranean economy while establishing a different nominal suzerainty over the region. In other words, the Balkans suffered peripheralization after religious and political schisms left Byzantium standing alone between Moslems and Catholics, and that peripheralization was only exacerbated by the onset of Muslim domination over the area. Ottoman investment was minimal, as the Balkans were a warzone throughout the late Middle Ages, and afterwards stabilized into a mere geographic buffer between Anatolia and Central Europe that was ultimately even less valuable to the sultans than it was to the autokratores. So religious and political divisions compounded the existing lack of infrastructure in the Balkans, making the rise of Northern Europe not just something the region was unable to tap into, but also a shift in continental center-of-gravity that essentially condemned even Greece as fly-over - sail-past? - country.
Montmorency, I'm not Turk, Iranian or Middle-Eastern in general, so what I said couldn't possibly be a product of a chauvinistic mindset. To adress your post, we need to compare the situation of the Balkans with the previous status quo, not with the best examples of the respective era.
The Balkan penninsula has already declined, since the continuous wars between the Byzantines, the Bulgars and the Slavs. The Ottoman Empire, despite being less centralized than France or Spain, was much more reliable than the previous mosaic of Roman, Serbian and Albanian principalities.

[Montmorency]

Montmorency, I'm not Turk, Iranian or Middle-Eastern in general, so what I said couldn't possibly be a product of a chauvinistic mindset.

This being another example of a chauvinistic mindset.


we need to compare the situation of the Balkans with the previous status quo, not with the best examples of the respective era.

That's what I did. While many regions of the Med and Eurasia at-large - Egypt, Greece, Persia, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Rome, France, England, Germany... - have alternated in a Core-Periphery relationship, with one-time peripheries becoming core areas of political and economic power while checking or even subordinating neighbors, including former cores, and then ceding their positions in turn, the Balkans have always been a peripheral area by dint of geography. The centralization of the Ottoman Empire as a whole (at various points in time) is of no relevance when we are specifically discussing an area that was always peripheral to the Ottomans.

[Sarmatian]

That's what I did. While many regions of the Med and Eurasia at-large - Egypt, Greece, Persia, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Rome, France, England, Germany... - have alternated in a Core-Periphery relationship, with one-time peripheries becoming core areas of political and economic power while checking or even subordinating neighbors, including former cores, and then ceding their positions in turn, the Balkans have always been a peripheral area by dint of geography. The centralization of the Ottoman Empire as a whole (at various points in time) is of no relevance when we are specifically discussing an area that was always peripheral to the Ottomans.

Balkans haven't been a peripheral area until 15th century. Constantinople was in the center of the western world at the time.

The problem with the Balkans was that it was a heavily forested hilly region, not suitable for agriculture or trade except the port cities, thus the interior was always sparsely populated and underdeveloped. That was the reason no one really cared about it. It changed somewhat in the late middle ages with rapid development of mining, but not by much.

[Montmorency]

Balkans haven't been a peripheral area until 15th century. Constantinople was in the center of the western world at the time.

This has to be tackled from two places.

First, Catholic Europe and Byzantine/Orthodox Europe were very much their own 'worlds' by the Late Middle Ages (even before the Turkic/Mongol incursions). Broadly speaking, we could count Western Europe and Eastern Europe in this time as two competing "cores", but the Balkans were thus, both due to the continuing migrations into the area, and the fact they provided a good geographic buffer-zone (c.f. "heavily forested hilly region") between Byzantium and the competing powers in modern-day Germany, Italy, and Poland. Indeed, after the Great Schism most conflict between the Byzantines and the Western Europeans was carried out through proxy wars and naval/maritime conflict.

The second is tied to the first and is pretty simple, but I'm at fault for not being more specific. Yes, Constantinople is technically within the geographic region called "Balkans", and so is/was Greece, but that isn't a crutch in the present discussion of how historical processes shaped modern Greece vis-a-vis the Euro crisis. After all, the Adirondack Mountains are contained within New York State, but that doesn't mean "New York State" is a core region or urban area in the USA just because "New York City" is. Constantinople was the seat of the emperor on a strategic strait, but we still realize that beyond the coasts and plains of Thessalonika and Adrianopolis, it was basically a no-man's-land. (Obviously, there were many peoples and statelets existing over time in the area, but in terms of the division between core Western powers and core Byzantium that's beside the point.) Now, tying together the two points, we will point out the increasing peripheralization and stagnation of the Greek peninsula even under Byzantine rule during the late Middle Ages. With Constantinople focusing most of its attention on maintaining its Eastern Mediterranean provinces and competing with various Catholic and Muslim powers over trade routes and such, Greece became little more than a stop-over country while Venetians and Anatolians and so forth sailed around trying to further their commercial enterprises. And since Greece became of relatively-little strategic value and no one was really interested in conquering and holding it...

You see where I'm going?

As for the Ottomans, I just reiterate my point that the situation was only perpetuated under their rule, but even worse since the economic core of Europe began to shift from the Mediterranean to Northern Europe, and then the North Atlantic. Plus, heathens are worse than heretics. So once the Ottomans were basically contained behind the Danube in the 17th century, no one was really interested in the Balkans at all.

Another takeaway for the current discussion: The Balkans are still of pretty minor economic importance to Europe and the world, with most economic activity in the Balkans aside from banking/finance being conducted between the states now dividing up the area. So really Europe does not care if the Balkans stagnate and the citizens there suffer - they just don't want political and social unrest creating an untenable situation that threatens wider economic interests and forces a serious international action to stabilize the region. You know what I'm talking about; you can't stop 'reminiscing' about the 90s anyway. :P

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The emperor was called Heraclius. Anyway, since they identified themslelves as Romaoi, while considering the term "Greek" as an insult, I think that called them Greeks is inaccurate. Let's not allow the propaganda of the modern state to manipulate us.

Well, Heraclius is an even more Greek name. The point is, no matter what they called themselves, they were Greek. One might just as reasonably argue that modern Hellenes reject the term "Romaoi" (a Greek word) because of historical revisionism.


We are talking about political not intellectual institutions. None of those chaps played any rome in the structural formation of the modern western states.

Yes they did, because those states were rebuilt using Greek and Roman writings.


The problem is quite the opposite. The Greeks are unfortunately too proud of their history, which is a direct cause for their immaturity, as we witnessed it during the recent referendum and elections. They blame the foreigners for everything that upsets them and they decribe their history as a series of betrayals, made by the west, which has the duty to defend Greece... Their xenophobia against Turks, Albanians and Slavs is almost perfectly reflected in the Macedonia Name dispute and the rise of the Golden Dawn.

If they see their history as no more than a series of Western betrayals then they aren't proud of the right bits.

[Idaho]

I see the EU has generously agreed to pay the German banks Greek people for an extra week.

[Montmorency]

The point is, no matter what they called themselves, they were Greek.

Maybe anachronism is the problem here? They were certainly not "Greek" in the modern sense, but they were heavily influenced by both imperial Roman and classical Greek culture, law, religion, language, texts, etc...

Don't you have a grad degree in Classics? You shouldn't be making these sorts of slips when discussing pre-modern identity.

[Sarmatian]

You see where I'm going?


I do, I just don't agree. Up until Vasco de Gama and discovery of the Americas, eastern Med was the most the most lucrative trading area in the western world. By western, I mean Greco-Roman world.

I just so happened that in the late middle ages, control of those trade routes was in the hands of Venetians mostly. It is also wrong to claim Balkan was just Adrianopolis, Constantinople and Thessaloniki. There were many important cities on the other side, in present day Croatia, Montenegro and Albania, like Split/Spalato, Zadar/Zara, Dubrovnik/Ragusa, Kotor/Cattaro, Drac/Durazzo and so on.

Control of those cities was often the reason of conflict between Franks and Byzantines and later Italians and Byzantines.

It was the hinterlands that was undeveloped and really a periphery (modern day central Serbia, Bosnia, Bulgaria...), so much that big players of the era didn't find it worthwhile to trouble themselves with it.

That being sad, I don't see how this is connected to present day Greek problems.


Maybe anachronism is the problem here? They were certainly not "Greek" in the modern sense, but they were heavily influenced by both imperial Roman and classical Greek culture, law, religion, language, texts, etc...

Don't you have a grad degree in Classics? You shouldn't be making these sorts of slips when discussing pre-modern identity.

That view is mostly bias as the western Europe wanted to claim Roman legacy for themselves, so much that they invented the term Byzantium out of thin air, ignoring the living, breathing Roman state. The argument "they were Hellenized" is a ridiculous one, as all Romans were Hellenized.

[Brenus]

For the ones who want to know the result on French Newspapers of the German Diktat, help by a French President who choose the Collaboration with Germany.

http://www.marianne.net/sites/default/files/capture_decran_2015-07-16_a_11.43.57.png

New injuries blossom on old scars...

[Fragony]

I see the EU has generously agreed to pay the German banks Greek people for an extra week.

That's what's going on no, it's all just a baillout. Greece only gets debts.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Maybe anachronism is the problem here? They were certainly not "Greek" in the modern sense, but they were heavily influenced by both imperial Roman and classical Greek culture, law, religion, language, texts, etc...

Don't you have a grad degree in Classics? You shouldn't be making these sorts of slips when discussing pre-modern identity.

Actually, the Grad degree is medieval.

In any case - I am using the term to refer to the people native to Graecia, the "insulting" term that Crander referred to is actually "Hellene". In any case, there's not a great deal, culturally, between modern Greeks and the medieval Greeks - probably less distance culturally than between the peoples in the same time period in say France, or England. During most of the medieval period the Greeks saw themselves as "Roman" which was a loyalty to the state rather than a "national" identity, because you could also be Sicilian or Armenian and still Roman.

Any, modern Greeks appears to be suffering from a particular psychic disturbance which is modern rather than historically rooted.

[Gilrandir]

Re Ottoman positive vs negative influence on the Balkan infrastructure:
Branislav Nušić in his "Autobiography" (1924) cited a song that Serbian peasants used to sing (or perhaps it was an adage?) that sounded like: "The roads are missing the Turks because no one has repaired them since they left". Not sure in the wording, but the sense was pretty much that. Sarmatian will correct me if I'm inaccurate.

[Sarmatian]

Re Ottoman positive vs negative influence on the Balkan infrastructure:
Branislav Nušić in his "Autobiography" (1924) cited a song that Serbian peasants used to sing (or perhaps it was an adage?) that sounded like: "The roads are missing the Turks because no one has repaired them since they left". Not sure in the wording, but the sense was pretty much that. Sarmatian will correct me if I'm inaccurate.

I can't remember, I read his autobiography some 15-20 years ago. Possibly. But the point of that sentence is usually ignored by a lot of Balkan historians - Ottomans did bring order and organization into a very chaotic region. Unfortunately, Balkans deteriorated as much as the rest of the empire later on.

[Brenus]

I think I remember that in "The Bridge on the Drina" Andric wrote that the unique way to keep the Turks out was not to repair the roads, as the soldiers wouldn't do out of it... Now, I know it is fiction, but...
In Medieval France, to repair the roads was part of the "corvées", unpaid work due to the Landlord, so it was in fact not very well done (as often when unpaid work).

[Kagemusha]

Germany ratified the deal. +- 90 Billion Euros are about to switch hands from tax payers to investment bankers. This have to be the biggest heist known to man. Maybe if Greece wants to stay in Euro so bad. We should leave from it. Bollocks. Like Tribes would say.:shame:

[Brenus]

Yeap. Germany & France voted for giving money to themselves. Great democracy and debts relief exercise. Our bankers will have more bonuses and Greece more unemployed and misery.
And in 3 years, if this plan survived that long, after French and Germans banks will have bought all valuables left in Greece, the same will come with the obvious: the debt can't be paid, let's it write it off.
The robbery would have been done, and it is all what it is about.

[Gilrandir]

I can't remember, I read his autobiography some 15-20 years ago. Possibly.
Time to re-read it, don't you think?
I like him, conisder him the Serbian Mark Twain as his humor reminds me the American a lot.

[HopAlongBunny]

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/7/why-the-european-authorities-refuse-to-let-greece-recover.html

[Fragony]

Oh ouch, in a recent poll that is probably not as bad as things really are more than 60% of the Dutch want out, these polls can't be trusted mindyou, questions are always suggestive. I would love it if the Neds leaves the EU thougn.

[Brenus]

Only question of time before the thing collapse.
EU's gvts don't want democracy, they don't want the best of the populations, they want money.
So the political aim of building EU has now vanished. All the B**** about solidarity and protection and friendship has melted like an ice-cream in front of a flame-thrower thanks to the un-elected Euro-group, ECB and others bullies... If even I can see it...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Only question of time before the thing collapse.
EU's gvts don't want democracy, they don't want the best of the populations, they want money.
So the political aim of building EU has now vanished. All the B**** about solidarity and protection and friendship has melted like an ice-cream in front of a flame-thrower thanks to the un-elected Euro-group, ECB and others bullies... If even I can see it...

...then it's unavoidable?

Well, no. The problem is political integration without popular will. The current self-perpetuating crisis can be explained entirely in terms of the democratic deficit. If integration between Greece and Germany has proceeded at the pace at which Germans and Greeks were both able to fully come to terms with the new reality then the Germans would now be willing to undertake direct transfers to Greece. However, political integration ran ahead of popular will, so the Greek and Germans do not have enough common cause to help each other, let alone trust each other.

This isn't really about money, it's about ideology trumping reality.

[Brenus]

"This isn't really about money, it's about ideology trumping reality" Hmm, yes and no. The European project started to avoid a 4th war between France & Germany, two of the latest 3 being World Wars. So, the start was ideology. It was no love between France & Germany, but a common feeling we couldn't carry on to slaughter each others.
Ideology trumping reality and becoming reality.
The founders believed that little steps by little steps, starting with economies (but not only as Germany and France were trading before WW.2) the 2 nations would come to terms, especially with the abolition (free travel) of borders. But this was not enough. Schools programs saw German as 1st choice in learning foreign language, we exchange pupils, we were explain the WW2 (without really too much details, bad Nazi, good German kind of), commemoration of battle and bad memory without too much emphasis on the German point. Then, yes, ideology created the reality.
One of my last military parades happened when my regiment received a German regiment. Can't say that the local Alsatians were too happy of it, as the noise of the boots are really the same than in 1941...
So European Union was about to put all what is called now the civil European wars behind and built a new future for all Europeans.
That is what I signed for.
We helped Germany to recover in forgetting invasions, slaughters and debts. We helped others as Spain, Portugal and Greece to recover from dictatorships. We help in developing Ireland.
Then some started to think that peace was too costly. No more European political project, be serious man, just let do business. Forgetting of course that is just putting populations against populations. Let have low wages in Romania then we sell in France. Of course, French having lost their jobs to Romanians have no more money to buy the new car, and with their salaries, Romanians can't afford it. Didn't stop the "free-marketeers" who are as blind in their faith than USSR PC politburo was. With the same result.
And Greece is just the first one to take the plunge. And as in USSR, the "elite" will not suffer of it, as they have the money, the jobs, and control media. But because they have media control, they believe in their own made propaganda, being out of touch of reality. As Louis XVI was just a day before the 14 of July 1789. Or Nicolas II before the Russian Revolution.
So, no, it is not unavailable, but to inject democracy in the European Institution is a task that would make the 12 labors of Hercules children play. EU institutions perceive rightly democracy as a danger for free trade. So they prefer to avoid to ask the EU voters their opinions.
But without a voice, the only way to be heard will be found somewhere else. Reject of all parties, vote for extreme nationalist/fascist/nazi parties, or citizens revolutions. However, all these options have their dangers, and carry wars in their clouds like storms carry thunder.

[Fragony]

3 million for silver knives and silver forks why not, fu EU. I also have them but I bought them myself.