Which is the most useless unit? [Archive]

Daevyll

11-28-2002, 13:37

Ballistas are utterly useless on the battlefield, they are quite useful in sieges though (albeit totally unrealistic imo; I dont care how many oversized arrows you shoot, it shouldnt bring down a metres-thick stone wall).

classified by type I'd go for:

Artillery: Ballista
Infantry : Hashishin -- can 'hide in open' until someone glances in their general direction, then die messily. Only good for the game-exploiting 'timer-hide'.
Cavalry : Mounted Crossbowmen -- slow reload on waht is essentially a hit-and-run unit is a bit silly. Require so much micromanagement to get any use out of that you end up neglecting the rest of your army.

MonkeyMan

11-28-2002, 14:22

Quote[/b] (Daevyll @ Nov. 28 2002,06:37)]I dont care how many oversized arrows you shoot, it shouldnt bring down a metres-thick stone wall).
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

My thoughts exactly. But even though they can knock a wall down, a unit of peasants can break down the door so what's the point?

I have to go:

Artillery : Ballista
Infantry : kerns or as origional suggested urban militia
Cavalry : Jinnettes (I know they are some peoples faveourite units but i can't use them beyond being really bad expensive hobliers).

+DOC+

11-28-2002, 14:39

All time most useless unit... the ballista

A.Saturnus

11-28-2002, 14:53

surely ballista I wonder why the AI still uses them.
Peasants usefull in the beginning? Urban militia routs peasants and is cheaper, so they are definitely more usefull.
I found mounted crossbowmen quiet usefull, in many battles I have around 30 kills by them and not much losses, if any.
If you can`t handle jinnettes, that doesn`t mean they are useless. The same for Hashishin. They will hide if you turn of auto-fire. They are surely not an super-unit, but I had same good experience with them.

Ktonos

11-28-2002, 15:00

Everyone routs peasants. But when you need a bit more soldiers to enforce the law in low loyality province, 100 peasants will do as good as 100 Chivalric Knights.

chunkynut

11-28-2002, 15:02

I think i'll have to say the Generals unit is normally the most useless unit when used by the AI

I can't think of many other units that charge headlong in to a spear unit in any of my games without backup except the generals unit, whatever it may be

Edit: Spelling

A.Saturnus

11-28-2002, 15:24

2 units of corssbow cost just a little bit more than peasants, are 120 men and much more usefull. Or pay the 13 florins more for spearmen. Use peasants only if you can`t produce anything else and you need a garrison quickly.

Rosacrux

11-28-2002, 15:52

Half Turkish units: They overlap eachother so much, that it's just silly... The other half are quite good though.

malkuth

11-28-2002, 16:07

Most of you dont relize that Urban Militia is better then Peasants all the way around. Why? Even though peasants are cheaper to build with the intial cost, UMs have cheaper maintance than Peasants. So even though you save the intial cost, you lose that saving over a few turns of upkeep.

So UM are the best Garrison units all around. No doubt.

Daevyll

11-28-2002, 17:00

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Nov. 28 2002,08:24)]2 units of corssbow cost just a little bit more than peasants, are 120 men and much more usefull. Or pay the 13 florins more for spearmen. Use peasants only if you can`t produce anything else and you need a garrison quickly.
Peasants have one big advantage over Spearmen: maintenance cost.

The initial cost isnt that big a concern, it's the added cost per turn that makes spearmen too expensive as garrison troops.

Daevyll

11-28-2002, 17:08

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Nov. 28 2002,07:53)]surely ballista I wonder why the AI still uses them.
Peasants usefull in the beginning? Urban militia routs peasants and is cheaper, so they are definitely more usefull.
I found mounted crossbowmen quiet usefull, in many battles I have around 30 kills by them and not much losses, if any.
If you can`t handle jinnettes, that doesn`t mean they are useless. The same for Hashishin. They will hide if you turn of auto-fire. They are surely not an super-unit, but I had same good experience with them.
I never said mounted corssbowmen were useless on the same scale ballistas are, but they're pretty dire all the same.

I've never had a situation where either normal crossbowmen or horse archers wouldnt do better. Add to that their cost, and they're the mounted lemon afaic.

As for Hashishin, there's 12 of them, they cost the world, and they really arent all that good. And yes I did turn 'fire at will' off thank you very much.
You can have three units of Futuwwas for that kind of cash Iirc, I know which I'd choose.

I have to agree on Jinettes though, they're my favourite unit in the game by a mile.

chunkynut

11-28-2002, 17:38

Quote[/b] (malkuth @ Nov. 28 2002,14:07)]Most of you dont relize that Urban Militia is better then Peasants all the way around. Why? Even though peasants are cheaper to build with the intial cost, UMs have cheaper maintance than Peasants. So even though you save the intial cost, you lose that saving over a few turns of upkeep.

So UM are the best Garrison units all around. No doubt.
They have the better unit maintenance cost only because they are a 60 man unit.

100 man peasants = 50f
60 man UM =37f

a 60 man peasant unit would be 30f

a 100 man UM unit would be 61f.

Edit: Now i realise i can't remember the actual maintenance costs of these 2 units. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

* curses years of drunken debauchery and canabis use * http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

* takes back quickly * http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Foreign Devil

11-28-2002, 21:10

"cannabis" has 2 n's.... i know that because i'm just starting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Kraxis

11-28-2002, 22:27

Overall: it has to be either Ballistas or Hashishin.

No other units perform as bad as they do, costeffectively, in battle.
Kerns and Murabitin just need to be learned, I hated javelineers too before, now I love them. I have even used 4 Murabitin in MP to great effect in an Early game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The Turks certainly do have overlapping units, but only if you take a glance at them. Ottomans and Turcomans look alike, but there is more to it than that. The Turcomans are horrible melee troops, while the Ottomans are quite capable. But in ranged combat the Turcomans really come into their own, sadly they don't have better bows. They are Armoured, shielded, fast and in a staggered formation, making them perfect for ranged combat. The Ottomans don't have the same Armour or speed, and opposed to the Turcomans they have a nice and close formation making them better in melee but they also become better targets in ranged duels. I could go on.

Mounted Crossbows are actually great. Capable in melee, fast and with a good stoppingpower. They need more attention, granted, but they have more potential thna normal Horse Archers and are actually a good counter to them.

Saki

11-29-2002, 00:37

I really like the xbow horsemen.You get them early in the game they are very fast and have great stamina.I use them like medium cav and genraly charge them in to flanks and rears,they are great at chasing routing units.

the balista is a given

Units I personally find usless or dont use are the spear chucking one like kernrs.

Just like to add the the ai should only be able to build 1 peasent unti per provence it has, and should be baned from making artillary all together.

MonkeyMan

11-29-2002, 01:00

Quote[/b] (Saki @ Nov. 28 2002,17:37)]should be baned from making artillary all together.
i disagree, i've seen the ai cause me a lot of trouble with catapults and cannons. Post patch their balance of forces is far better which is good. My only real complaint is with the ballistas.

BTW can someone tell me in a few paragraphs just what you do with

A : Jinettes
B : Kerns

To make tham your favourite units. What orders do you give them, where does your mouse click that mine doesn't. Certainly my phycology is more melee based, i think people who throw sticks are stupid cowards, but surely i'm missing something in the MTW sense.

Saki

11-29-2002, 01:16

Hi MonkeyMan,

My reasoning is that the time and effort the ai must put in to building the siege buildings and equipment would be better put to improvung its other non artillary units.I agree the the ai army balance is more effective post patch as it tends to put its best stuff up first.I was was paticulary refering to early siege stuff rather than ginpowder units although I did not make that clear.

Negative

11-29-2002, 01:44

Quote[/b] ]I was was paticulary refering to early siege stuff rather than ginpowder units although I did not make that clear.

Ginpowder Now that has got to be some good stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Jaret

11-29-2002, 02:10

Quote[/b] (MonkeyMan @ Nov. 28 2002,18:00)]

BTW can someone tell me in a few paragraphs just what you do with

A : Jinettes
B : Kerns

To make tham your favourite units. What orders do you give them, where does your mouse click that mine doesn't. Certainly my phycology is more melee based, i think people who throw sticks are stupid cowards, but surely i'm missing something in the MTW sense.

Using Javelins vs. AI :

You have many Archers ... the AI not ... but has taken the high ground.

Form up your Army ... Archers first line ... Infanterie second ... Cavalry on the flanks. Move them into position so they are slightly out of range of the enemy. The Skirmish ahead with you Javelins. All Javelin units are fast. You can use your Skirmishers to a.) draw out the enemy archers into bowrange and then massacre them with bows and javelins, or b.) Pepper the enemy Infantery and make them charge your Skirmishers ... those retreat and draw the enemy from the high ground on the plains ... there you kill´em.

Other use would be on the flanks. Engage the enemy center ... use the speed of the Javelins to swing around the enemy Flank ... throw some Javelins in their backs. Due to the missilefire the enemy will take morale penalties ... due to the losses too ... since the Javelins come from behind your forces barely take losses ... charge the enemy rear.

Their armour piercing abillity makes them interesting even in the late era.

And on the Subject ... Ballistas are the absolutely worst thing ... Standart Archers are bad aswell ... worst Infanterie is for me Peasants and Urban Militia (They lack Morale ... no use on the battlefield therefor a waste of time) ... Worst cavalry is Sahara Cavalry ... I use to rout them with mounted Crossbows in Meele *gg*

Lord Romulous

11-29-2002, 02:19

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Nov. 28 2002,07:53)]surely ballista I wonder why the AI still uses them.
i thought they had fixed the unbalanced army thing.

but in the papal states and rome the popes armies are made up of 13 Ballista units, 4 catapults and 1 cav unit.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Leet Eriksson

11-29-2002, 02:36

Quote[/b] (Negative @ Nov. 28 2002,18:44)]
Quote[/b] ]I was was paticulary refering to early siege stuff rather than ginpowder units although I did not make that clear.

Ginpowder Now that has got to be some good stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
with a a shipwright you'll get Ginboats http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

LordKhaine

11-29-2002, 03:39

Kinda odd... many of the listed units I *love*

Mounted crossbowmen: I've used them before as missle troops. Stick them behind my spears on a hill.... and then they double up nicely for running down people as the enemy flees. Anyone on a horse is good to run down fleeing troops... plus they're easy to get techwise.

Jinettes: One of my fave horse units So fast... can melee ok, can run people down very well... and those javlins can be used to awesome effect against knights.

Kerns: I use these guys as flanking units... cheap as hell... and when they get firing, they will kill *lots* of men. Lack of ammo is a problem... but they dont tire fast so you can withdraw them quickly.

hoom

11-29-2002, 04:50

Nothing wrong with standard archers at all.
You just have to choose your targets carefully.
They're no good against armour.
But against most early units like Peasants UM and light Cav they do very nicely thank you.

Ballistae are usless.

UM are waaaaay better than Peasants.

Me, I haven't managed to get any skirmishers to work at all. They just get charged and run away.
Koreans were good in Shogun so I probably just need to learn.

So far, all the ships above Barques are useless because I have yet to see a 4 Barque fleet even lose one ship.

Gunpowder I have not even tried in SP, though I understand that artilery is really good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

muffinman14

11-29-2002, 06:04

man kerns are awesome and balistats suck

Postino

11-29-2002, 06:13

i think billmen are pretty sucky: they died quicker than regular spears when i used them.

all time? the ballista

HopAlongBunny

11-29-2002, 07:20

Ballistas w/o question.

I would say Kerns as well, but their price makes up for my lack of skill in using them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif They aggro units well and get slaughtered but if it brings the enemy where I want them...no loss.

Mounted Crossbow I love I like to use them with HA's, esp against knights. The HA's start to bring the knights, the mounted crossbows get in some nice shots because of range. All the benefits of a good light cav unit too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I would also like to add a vote for halbadiers. Maybe its my play style (I like to move a lot) but they never seem to get into battle. The few times I have got them engaged I have not been impressed. For their price they rate a big zero for me.

Katasaki Hirojima

11-29-2002, 08:10

LOL Halberdiers are one of the best units in the game. For 300F you get a 1/6 unit with bonuses against armoured units and cavalry. Mounted Crossbowmen are also good.

I edited Kerns just a wee bit so I dunno about how bad they suck. *grins*

THe worst unit in my opinion are Mamluk Handgunners. No melee quality and their firing range sucks badly.

A.Saturnus

11-29-2002, 12:52

Ballista (I know I said it before, but it can`t be said often enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
Yes, mamluk handgunners have been a big disapointment : ( for me. There are in every way worse than handgunners and that means a lot Now, you can`t even build them earlier, so they are even more useless.
I admit, the inital costs of Hashishin is very high, but maintance isn`t. Well, they did hide in my case and they can have a quiet good shock effect. (there was a thread where one told that they routed gothic knights)
All right peasants is the cheapest 100 men unit (for most factions, nubian cost the same), but 2 units crossbowmen just cost 7 florins more the year, are 120 and if needed, they can be used in battle.

Stygious

11-29-2002, 16:32

UM are great I have noted they make good governors early in the game and in battle under a good general (at least 5 star) they can easily chew more expensive units. Deployed in forest they are even more lethal against spears cavalry.

Peasants are only good for distraction... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

As for most worthless unit, it has to be the ballsita...

Kraxis

11-29-2002, 18:24

Ok, since so many people seems to dislike javelins but are interested in learning them I will post a thread about how to make them better.

Thanks for reminding me of the Mamluke Handgunners... DAMN They simply suck There is nothing to go around it. The only advantage they have over Hangunners is that their handguns don't blow up, well I haven't seen a single Handgunner blow up.

MizuKokami

11-29-2002, 22:38

actually, i've begun to like ballistas. they are great on the battlefield when used properly, and not just for defence or assaulting castles. just set them in a place out of harms way and manipulate the enemy into turning their flanks toward them. if you can, conceal them, then open fire just before first contact, or open fire after a few minutes of combat. the enemy won't know what hit em. sometimes, you will even get lucky with your initial placement of them, or the defender will charge you because they think they can beat you. the morale penalty is fantastic. and if you can't get the enemy to come into range, just withdraw them to get your reinforcements on the field. just be sure that when you take balistas, they are extra units. they aren't that great attacking in mp battles, though again, if your army is one of the armies on the main front, the added morale penalties can come in quite nice with a calvary assist from your allies. in fact, the only thing i don't like about ballistas is that they aren't on wheels like they are supposed to be. so in reality, there really aren't any useless units, imo. peasants are good for beefing armies quick, and sometimes over whelming numbers can come in quite handy. though not good fighters on the main front, use them to soak up enemy arrows, or to draw the enemy out to shoot their troops first, saveing your better troops for the main fight. urban militia are also not front line troops. you use them as reinforcements. when your men are fighting, becomeing a little uncertain, charge one into the fray to give a little boost. with their charge and ability against armored troops, they can pack a nice punch during early period, and if your men are uncertain, there's a good chance the enemy is too. so that hit they have when brought into the frey after a bit of mellee could be just what the doctor ordered. of couse, once you get things built to the point where you can afford better units, they become obsolete. but haveing uses early on means they aren't useless.

LadyAnn

11-29-2002, 23:52

Please stop using peasants to sock up arrows... I wouldn't even use a cow to do that ... And your generals have the V&V of "Humanist"?

Annie

Cousin Zoidfarb

11-30-2002, 00:20

Lithuanian cavalry

Need much improved buildings to be built and aren`t fast nor good at melee.

LordKhaine

11-30-2002, 03:05

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Nov. 29 2002,16:52)]Please stop using peasants to sock up arrows... I wouldn't even use a cow to do that ... And your generals have the V&V of "Humanist"?

Annie
You know in Shogun once I used my daimyo as the bait while attacking a river.... So at least I treat people as equal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

MizuKokami

11-30-2002, 21:29

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Nov. 29 2002,16:52)]Please stop using peasants to sock up arrows... I wouldn't even use a cow to do that ... And your generals have the V&V of "Humanist"?

Annie
hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
what's funny about that is my general almost allways dies first.

bosdur

12-01-2002, 10:52

Quote[/b] (The Last Emperor @ Nov. 28 2002,01:36)]All the handguns units are pants Can't even hit 5 guys at point blank range plus they are useless in rain.
I would have to go with ballistas. Actually handgunners at high valor can make a good attacker, as good as any shock unit.

Qilue

12-01-2002, 18:26

I'm not really qualified to answer based on the tactical part, but I answer with regard to the campaign game.

Swiss armoured pikemen. *gasps all around*
Because they are only available in 1 small rpovince in late era. By this time, your armies are already set up using other units, you probably don't own Switzerland and even if you did, you would only be able to train or repair 1 unit per turn. By the time you had enough in usefull numbers, the game would be virtually over.