Vices + Virtues

[Zone]

Vices and Virtues are a fun and intresting addition to the game but I think they're a little too quick to be affected and in some circumstances shouldn't be affected at all. For example, you have a small army in one province, it is attacked by an army 3 times it's size. You retreat to the castly so that next turn you can sally forth with help from other armies - however, you're given the vice 'good runner' or 'coward'. this is unfair, it's the only sensible course of action (If playing on a reasonably hard difficulty level, on easy I've defeated armies 5 times my size with ease). If anything you should gain the virtue 'good tactical thinker' or something similar. Depending of course on the map and army sizes, if you retreat when you have an army only a little smaller and it's taking place in a province where there is a river then yes, you should get a vice but no one could blame a general for escaping certain death to come back and attack next year.

[Kraxis]

You would get Eager to Retreat. Good Runner comes from routing and Coward comes mostly from not engaging the enemy in melee (though routing can do this as well).

I agree that the bad battlevices come to easily while it is practically impossible to get the good ones. No matter how long and hard my generals fight they just never get Famous Warrior or Fine Leader, they might be born with it but I have not experienced them getting it later due to a battle. I'm not saying they can't be gotten, but it seems too hard.
Make it so that if the general kills say 25 enemies he will be a Famous Warrior, 50 he will be Mighty and 100 he will be Legendary... Why not?
And make Eager to Retreat only happen if he retreats in face of an enemy that is less than 3:1. Even the Templars were permitted to retreatwith no shame in face of 3:1.

[Spetulhu]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 28 2002,00:00)]Even the Templars were permitted to retreatwith no shame in face of 3:1.
BTW, now that I think about it, the Templars were also forbidden to offer ransom if captured. Thus every captured Templar should be executed automatically.

[deutschlanduberalles]

I cannot STAND it when a good general gets a bad vice from losing a hard fought battle with an army eight god-d**ned times his army's size. This is RIDICULOUS and is the cause of more reloads than I care to count. In a word, FIX IT

Okay, that was two words, but seriously.....first patch was good--it left too many issues unaddressed though

[Zone]

In a similar vein, does anyone know if you get a vice if you run out of time on an attack? I'm the Almohads and the Egyptians have about 10000 troops in Venice. I don't think I'll have time to defeat them all if I attack so do I break the attack into two years and use a less important general in the first attack so that it doesn't matter if gains a vice, or can I launch straight in with one of my level 9 generals?

[Kraxis]

You will get a loss, but most likely not a Vice as your men and general held on. But if your general just ran once and for 2 seconds you might get Good Runner.

[Zone]

very well, if my insanely good general gets a vice I shall hold you responsible Kraxis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (There's no way I'm playing it twice I could pour 20000 troops in I suppose and let the computer play it but that wouldn't be fun would it

[MizuKokami]

actually, with more troops that are involved in the battle, there's more time put on the timer.

[malkuth]

I absalutly hate the "Good Runner" Vice. Its one of the things that are still hurting this game. It needs to be addressed and fixed. Losing -3 moral for all the rest of the battles for that general is totally stupid for losing one battle.

Its unrealistic and NEEDS FIXING
FIX IT

And your general gets it no matter how he fought. If he fought 5 secs in the battle ran. Or was the last man standing and retreated you still get it.

[Jaret]

There is a solution ... don´t loose *gg*.

As the game develops into high/late era, my Generals participate less and less in Combat. I always try to keep my General out of Combat. Even if the Morale of his unit is high and they won´t route ... he may get killed because of bad luck. I hate too loose a good General ... Good Runner is irrelevant sinc he isn´t meant to fight anyways .

Why ? Because of the most general rule in combat : Carefully, carefully, carefully

A General that is in the middle of the brawl can´t command his troops (at least in RL) and might eventually die ... leaving his men without command.

[Kraxis]

Jaret, be careful wityh that, he might become a Coward that way. And I can tell you that you can have the most brilliant general in all of history, but if he is a Coward I would rather go for a Rank 0 general.
At the very least have him take some prisoners.

Also, it is not fun to always win... that way the game become boring. I want to fight impossible battles, I want my mmen to show me what they are worth, I want them to lie down their lives for me and my realm. There is nothing more fun than being able to hold on for possibly hours against all odds until numbers have run too thin. These situations are what legends are made of...
But it is simply too much if that Heroic Stoic Brave master of combat gets a Good Runner because he was outnumbered 300:1 and even worse if there was no friendlies around to see it.

[CeeBod]

Bad Combat V&Vs aren't the only ones to accrue far too quickly - I've noticed that when I get to the stage of being a nicely wealthy empire, governors generate bad V&Vs at a ridiculous rate - Just as a test, I sacked every governor that got a bad V&V as soon as they got it, and replaced them - and then had 55 different generals acquire a V&V with a penalty to farming or trade within 30 years

At one stage, I accidentally dropped a governorship onto the wrong unit - led by a Mongol general with 0 Acumen. I dropped an emissary onto him the same turn to strip the title. When I checked him out the next turn, he had the "Art Lover" vice - which he acquired from being governor of Saxony for less than a year http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

At that level it ceases to be "a nice roleplaying element" and becomes instead "a massive pain in the arse" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[Kraxis]

Ceebod, at some time when your empire has reached a certain size your govenors will get bad Vices to farming and trade almost no matter what. Why that is, is hard to figure out... But you have to quickly build farming upgrades and other buildings in later stages to keep up with the bad Vices (so as you get Steward and Builder). And bad Vices to a the govenor of Switzerland or Wales might not be all that bad if he grants happiness or other giid things to the province.

[Ii Naomasa]

I don't mind the quick application of vices for player-caused situations (such as retreating and getting involved in outnumbered battles). After all, negative reputations do often come fast and furious in reality, warranted or not. What bugs me is that they never fade.

For example, your general who has seen a half dozen battles and fought valiantly runs. While I don't think it should be as automatic as it currently is that he should be given a 'good runner' vice, it makes some sense that maybe his troops believe he has lost his nerve. Should he from that point on find himself constantly in the midst of battles, staying his ground and even aggressively diving into situations, he should at some point lose that bad reputation as his troops realize that one day was a fluke. As it stands, your general could get a bad vice fight in the middle of the thick of things quite valiantly, get into a bad situation again a score of battles later and suddenly be labeled doubly bad.

The only positive thing about the current system is that it treats you to handle your better generals like delicate little prima donnas, which isn't too far off reality. Basically, you don't leave them on the front or any borders and (except in desperation) only use them when you're pretty assured of victory (which negates the benefit of his abilities turning the tide). It definitely takes away from the fun of the game.

As for governors, once I get spies, I often do a selective 'house cleaning' everytime a new heir takes the throne. In practice, it eliminates the governors whose vices outweigh their virtues, but game-wise I always pretend that it's just the prince getting rid of his father's buddies that he personally couldn't stand. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I will say, however, it's amazing what these guys pick up whilst sitting around.

[deejayvee]

I think the problem is that your generals are immortal. Because if you get a bad V+V in 1100, the general of the unit shouldn't have the same bad V+V in 1200.