10 years

[Strike For The South]

And I think I know less than I did when I started.

Also Louis forever.

[Fragony]

Where is he always wondered why he stopped posting, he was hilarious

[Strike For The South]

Where is he always wondered why he stopped posting, he was hilarious

Ashes to ashes and all that. I find myself agreeing with Panzer more often too, how terribly passe :(

[Fragony]

Ashes to ashes and all that.

I hope that doesn't mean what it sounds like

[Strike For The South]

I hope that doesn't mean what it sounds like

It's a metaphor. I have no contact with the man. I can't speak to his health. I like to think he is in a little chateau in the loire. Turning pages at his leisure, not a care in the world.....naked.

[HopAlongBunny]

We are all richer for your presence :2thumbsup:

[Sarmatian]

.naked.

That scares me...

... but, I'm certain he's doing all that on taxpayers time.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think my ideas have evolved in my time on here, been near enough 10 years for me as well.

Who's that in the new avatar?

[Fragony]

It's good when your ideas evolve, I wouldn't want to be reminded of some things I said years ago. It's a shame Tribes left because in hindsight I cannot disagree with him. 10 years are a lot in internet-time.

[Kralizec]

I don't think my ideas have changed particulary much over the last 10 years. Five years before that (when I joined here) I used to be a borderline communist, but I wasn't here to bother you all with it.


I think my ideas have evolved in my time on here, been near enough 10 years for me as well.

Who's that in the new avatar?

*raises hand*

It's William T. Sherman. Thought it was odd at first, coming from STFS.

[Hooahguy]

Ive done basically a 180 on most issues so... great success! Now give me another eight years here and Im sure I will have done a full 360.

:2thumbsup:

[Kagemusha]

And I think I know less than I did when I started.

Also Louis forever.

Congrats you whippersnapper you. See i was here whole three months earlier...~;) And yes.We all miss Louis..:shame:

[Csargo]

Hey, congrats SFTS! 10 years here as well. Doesn't seem like it's been that long. :2thumbsup:

[Sarmatian]

And yes.We all miss Louis..:shame:

Especially at night :smitten:

Maybe if we all stalk him like a ditched girlfriend with no self respect and beg him to come back... ?

[Papewaio]

Congrats on your tenure... Yes terrible pun

[GeneralHankerchief]

Time flies when you're having fun. i think Congrats Strike! :cheerleader:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Strike is old, and so am I....

BUT STILL WE ARE NO RESPECTABLE!

[a completely inoffensive name]

Congrats Strike. Your opinions and perspectives have only become more nuanced and thought out over time.

[Montmorency]

Your opinions and perspectives have only become more nuanced and thought out over time.

Of course brevity, to a point, becomes indistinguishable from lack of wit. ~:flirt:

[Kadagar_AV]

From my perspective, Louis was more or less a victim of Banquos Ghost (BQ henceforth).

BQ handled the backroom in a VERY self centered way, throwing out warnings left and right if something didn't suit him, and letting things pass that suited him.

Louis was a free thinker and always challenging his surroundings, and we loved him for it. Heck, I loved him for it, eventhough we often argued.

It came to a point where the Backroom more or less rebelled against BQ, unfortunately, Louis posts became the battleground.

It was just SO DAMN OBVIOUS that the mod played with hidden cards, unfortunately louis posts were used to highlight it, and the forum at large had to step in to quench it...

And that's why it turned to **** and we lost one of our best posters.

I miss Louis a lot, even to this day. He was just collateral damage in the war against BQ.

For me as a person I much prefer the forum post BQ though... I think BQ gave me as many warnings a month as I have gotten since BQ got pushed away... Some several years ago. The Backroom modertaion is actually the last years the best moderation I have seen on any internet forum I have ever been to.. So cheers for that!!

But yeah... A Backroom with todays mods AND Louis would of course have been the best. And honestly speaking, it WAS rather pettty of him to just quit... I would cry for him, but real men don't.




EDIT: Those who have only been here for 10 years are still newcomers in my eyes :p


EDIT2: sorry for grammar and spelling, I am out on the countryside with a laptop from the time when vampires didn't glitter in the sun

[edyzmedieval]

Ah, the 10 year club. Do we count as the Old Guard of the Org now? ~;)

[Strike For The South]

Of course brevity, to a point, becomes indistinguishable from lack of wit. ~:flirt:
You are giving away the game my friend.

[Fragony]

From my perspective, Louis was more or less a victim of Banquos Ghost (BQ henceforth).

BQ handled the backroom in a VERY self centered way, throwing out warnings left and right if something didn't suit him, and letting things pass that suited him.

Louis was a free thinker and always challenging his surroundings, and we loved him for it. Heck, I loved him for it, eventhough we often argued.

It came to a point where the Backroom more or less rebelled against BQ, unfortunately, Louis posts became the battleground.

It was just SO DAMN OBVIOUS that the mod played with hidden cards, unfortunately louis posts were used to highlight it, and the forum at large had to step in to quench it...

And that's why it turned to **** and we lost one of our best posters.

I miss Louis a lot, even to this day. He was just collateral damage in the war against BQ.

For me as a person I much prefer the forum post BQ though... I think BQ gave me as many warnings a month as I have gotten since BQ got pushed away... Some several years ago. The Backroom modertaion is actually the last years the best moderation I have seen on any internet forum I have ever been to.. So cheers for that!!

But yeah... A Backroom with todays mods AND Louis would of course have been the best. And honestly speaking, it WAS rather pettty of him to just quit... I would cry for him, but real men don't.




EDIT: Those who have only been here for 10 years are still newcomers in my eyes :p


EDIT2: sorry for grammar and spelling, I am out on the countryside with a laptop from the time when vampires didn't glitter in the sun

Bit too harsh on BG, he just liked good behaviour. when I got a warning I already knew I had gone too far and that it would be comming very soon. I like the loose style of the current moderators though

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

From my perspective, Louis was more or less a victim of Banquos Ghost (BQ henceforth).

BQ handled the backroom in a VERY self centered way, throwing out warnings left and right if something didn't suit him, and letting things pass that suited him.

Louis was a free thinker and always challenging his surroundings, and we loved him for it. Heck, I loved him for it, eventhough we often argued.

It came to a point where the Backroom more or less rebelled against BQ, unfortunately, Louis posts became the battleground.

It was just SO DAMN OBVIOUS that the mod played with hidden cards, unfortunately louis posts were used to highlight it, and the forum at large had to step in to quench it...

And that's why it turned to **** and we lost one of our best posters.

I miss Louis a lot, even to this day. He was just collateral damage in the war against BQ.

For me as a person I much prefer the forum post BQ though... I think BQ gave me as many warnings a month as I have gotten since BQ got pushed away... Some several years ago. The Backroom modertaion is actually the last years the best moderation I have seen on any internet forum I have ever been to.. So cheers for that!!

But yeah... A Backroom with todays mods AND Louis would of course have been the best. And honestly speaking, it WAS rather pettty of him to just quit... I would cry for him, but real men don't.




EDIT: Those who have only been here for 10 years are still newcomers in my eyes :p


EDIT2: sorry for grammar and spelling, I am out on the countryside with a laptop from the time when vampires didn't glitter in the sun


Eh, I don't remember it like that. For one thing, Loius went into self-imposed exiled after he crossed the line whilst being a moderator. As I recall, and it's been a few years, all that was done to Loius was that he was stripped of his mod title - then he left.

I also don't remember Banquo being "Forced out", as I recall he'd retired at least once before the whole Loius thing kicked off and was basically dragged back into the Backroom because it'd became too rowdy. It's not fair to single out his moderating style, either, because it was the same as Kukri's or BKS' All the mods were harsh and they strictly enforced "gentlemanly" behaviour. In generally I would say the Backroom benefited from that, because it enforced a standard of debate and I have several times argued that things should be tighter than they currently are.

As far as I'm concerned both Loius and Bonquo raised the debate and the atmosphere here, and I miss both of them.

[Sarmatian]

Eh, I don't remember it like that. For one thing, Loius went into self-imposed exiled after he crossed the line whilst being a moderator. As I recall, and it's been a few years, all that was done to Loius was that he was stripped of his mod title - then he left.


While I agree with you that Banquo did a fine job, I definitely don't agree that Louis crossed the line. It was a jest, there was no insulted party, only a certain member who was more of a troll at the time (and who shall remain unnamed in this instance) demanded strict and vigorous punishment out of spite and pettiness.

If we had applied the rules that rigorously, we'd all be banned by now.

Louis didn't leave because he was insulted, but because he didn't want to remain here if that was the standard. I maybe wouldn't have made the same choice, but in principle he was 100% right.

[Pannonian]

While I agree with you that Banquo did a fine job, I definitely don't agree that Louis crossed the line. It was a jest, there was no insulted party, only a certain member who was more of a troll at the time (and who shall remain unnamed in this instance) demanded strict and vigorous punishment out of spite and pettiness.

If we had applied the rules that rigorously, we'd all be banned by now.

Louis didn't leave because he was insulted, but because he didn't want to remain here if that was the standard. I maybe wouldn't have made the same choice, but in principle he was 100% right.

Your discussion is on the first page of the Watchtower, isn't it?

[Sarmatian]

Your discussion is on the first page of the Watchtower, isn't it?

Don't know, haven't visited Watchtower in ages. Possibly.

[Kadagar_AV]

Eh, I don't remember it like that. For one thing, Loius went into self-imposed exiled after he crossed the line whilst being a moderator. As I recall, and it's been a few years, all that was done to Loius was that he was stripped of his mod title - then he left.

I also don't remember Banquo being "Forced out", as I recall he'd retired at least once before the whole Loius thing kicked off and was basically dragged back into the Backroom because it'd became too rowdy. It's not fair to single out his moderating style, either, because it was the same as Kukri's or BKS' All the mods were harsh and they strictly enforced "gentlemanly" behaviour. In generally I would say the Backroom benefited from that, because it enforced a standard of debate and I have several times argued that things should be tighter than they currently are.

As far as I'm concerned both Loius and Bonquo raised the debate and the atmosphere here, and I miss both of them.

Ban-queue's Ghost (see what I did there) :drummer: was someone I disagreed with as a moderator, to be frank. He played with favourites and had a 100% self-view agenda.

His reign ended when he wanted visitors on the board to somehow, like, DEEPLY respect the 3000 persons killed in the 11/9 attacks (see what I did there, again?).

Louise left when he realized he did not, actually, have free reign.

[Husar]

Congratulations SFTS.
10 years is a lot on the internets.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

While I agree with you that Banquo did a fine job, I definitely don't agree that Louis crossed the line. It was a jest, there was no insulted party, only a certain member who was more of a troll at the time (and who shall remain unnamed in this instance) demanded strict and vigorous punishment out of spite and pettiness.

If we had applied the rules that rigorously, we'd all be banned by now.

Louis didn't leave because he was insulted, but because he didn't want to remain here if that was the standard. I maybe wouldn't have made the same choice, but in principle he was 100% right.

You know, I don't exactly remember what Loius said but I remember it made me feel a little ill. It was bad enough that I thought it demonstrated he shouldn't be a mod, but far from being ban-worthy.

I think Kad's recollection is clouded by who he was at the time, to be honest, I got several warning from Banquo and Kad probably thinks I was one of his favourites.

I was just terrified of him the way I was my headmaster.

[Fragony]

Getting really curious now, wtf happened can I get a discrete summary. I never understood why Louis suddenly stopped posting, I never noticed anything wrong between anyone. Me and Tribes perhaps and I really regret how that turned out, but that's about it.

[Beskar]

You know, I don't exactly remember what Loius said but I remember it made me feel a little ill. It was bad enough that I thought it demonstrated he shouldn't be a mod, but far from being ban-worthy.

We have some rules, so I cannot go into full details, but I will clear something up.

Louis was not banned from the Org, his choice to leave was his free will and isn't/hasn't been barred from coming back at anytime.

[Kralizec]

Banquo had nothing to do with Louis leaving. I'll leave it at that.

[Fragony]

The Marquis de Sade terrified people. Brilliant guy. I wouldn't give Louis the same credits but those who have no sense of humour and can't sense what should be pefectly obvious and harmless sarcasm all the less aren't getting any regardless. I miss AdrianII as well, sarcasm wasn't his thing but he sure was good at being arrogant, and that isn't in any way an insult, just an acknowledgement of decorum.

[Papewaio]

Banquo was a scholar and a gentleman.

Louis was funny and a good soul.

I miss Pindar too. Doubt he misses me though...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Banquo was a scholar and a gentleman.

Louis was funny and a good soul.

I miss Pindar too. Doubt he misses me though...

Strictly speaking, Banquo was a scholar and a nobleman...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Looking back at how I conducted myself...19 was a very angry age for me.

[Strike For The South]

Banquo had nothing to do with Louis leaving. I'll leave it at that.

False. I'll leave it at that.

[Fragony]

Reminds me, I miss AdrianII as well, the smug bastard. We live in the same town and I have known that he frequently visits the same place I do for years, and he knows that as well. Unspoken gentlemen's agreement that we don't know, could have sat right next to him so many times.

[Brenus]

I miss Red, don't remember his full name. Captain in the US Artillery. Hard to debate with, you made one approximation or miss one comma, and bang, you were in trouble... Wife bi-polar, if I remember well. But what a debater...

[Hooahguy]

I miss Tribesman.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Husar]

I miss Tribesman.

I just reopened the tab to write that. He was mostly right, not always but mostly.
Unfortunately his sense for justice was so strong that he could not stay among people who are often wrong.

[Hooahguy]

I remember hating his guts so much when I first came here. Then as my views changed I didnt hate him nearly as much. Then he left, much to my disappointment.

[Fragony]

I just reopened the tab to write that. He was mostly right, not always but mostly.
Unfortunately his sense for justice was so strong that he could not stay among people who are often wrong.

Threatening with comming to your house to 'pay you a littlle visit' ain't nice though. I am sorry about how things went. I was just trolling Tribes when I reported him but Tosa(rip) took it really serious. I tried to undo it because it was probably just a drunk action to threaten me but it was too late, things were set into motion. Tosa forwarded a mail of mine in which I asked him to come back but Tribes felt like the org staff had sided with me.

[Kagemusha]

I miss Red, don't remember his full name. Captain in the US Artillery. Hard to debate with, you made one approximation or miss one comma, and bang, you were in trouble... Wife bi-polar, if I remember well. But what a debater...

Redleg ,i remember him too. Very strict fellow, but i remember admiring his sense of justice and common sense.:yes:

[Kralizec]

False. I'll leave it at that.

Really? That's not how I remember it, but nevermind.

[Beskar]

Really? That's not how I remember it, but nevermind.

I am curious with the connection myself, but it could have a reference to Louis-gate...

There was a theme that Moderators were seen as 'above' the law and a couple of examples which received majority of the stink were by BQ and Louis. In their separate ways, they received the brunt of the 'attack' which BQ retired and led to Louis-gate.

[Fragony]

I missed all of this but I liked BG, he was a gentleman who insisted on courtious behaviour. Nothing wrong with that.

[Proletariat]

unreal that Fragony of all people doesn't know what the joke was that led to Louis getting tossed.

the staff got trolled very hard by a loser who had an axe to grind with Louis. the staff took the troll's side. it's grated on me since but for some reason, probably my nostalgia from the Rome 1 era of the forum, I took a role back here. I've sat here half heartedly barely moderating much and I attribute most of that discouragement to the way the admins handled Louis and BG. I'm a pretty big coward for having done this. I'm sorry to you all

anyway, 10 years. it's largely due to this backroom that I've gone from a raging Conservative Club (lol) member to spending free time on grass roots efforts for Sanders. I learned a lot back here and am very grateful to have found this place at an age when I needed it most.

[Strike For The South]

My feelings exactly. I pop in to check in on my favorite British posters. Most everyone else I have other ways to contact. Well that and being a creature of habit.

The backroom has always been sort of an aberration on what is (was?) a hardcore mod forum for a hardcore fan base of a niche (well was) game. Louis and Banqou ended up not meshing with these friendless Virgins and faux demagogues and left. Presumably because they are well adjusted adults with hobbies and girlfriends.

Im over it. This place is a habit of nothing else.

[Husar]

Quite frankly, I never wanted Louis to leave, but he did show behaviour that was not okay, especially not for a moderator.
As Tiaexz says, an "okay, that was not a great idea" might have helped here and there.

[Fragony]

I don't even remember the joke, I can take jokes perfectly fine. This is a sad outcome of something perfectly innocent.

I'll take it as a compliment that Louis never explained anything to me

edit: just to make it clear, I have no idea what joke it was, probably a funny one. I have no idea who took offence, and who caused any trouble. I just learned now it was because of a joke against me, but I had absolutily nothing to do with it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Well out of the two categories Strike listed, I'm glad I'm not in the friendless virgin camp.

[Husar]

I don't even remember the joke, I can take jokes perfectly fine. This is a sad outcome of something perfectly innocent.

I'll take it as a compliment that Louis never explained anything to me

edit: just to make it clear, I have no idea what joke it was, probably a funny one. I have no idea who took offence, and who caused any trouble. I just learned now it was because of a joke against me, but I had absolutily nothing to do with it.

It was not just one single thing, the joke towards you was neither the beginning nor the end of it and it is correct that you had not much to do with it. There was a conflict in terms of rules. Should we allow mods to say things members are not allowed to say or should we allow it because it was a joke? In the first case the members would complain that mods have special rights in terms of speech and in the letter case, members could insult eachother and then claim it was a joke. That was more or less how it began and was endlessly debated until it actually escalated. As long as there was just a debate, noone was going to get fired, that only came up when instead of apologizing and forgetting about it, Louis decided to one-up his questionable approach to the matter in order to prove some kind of point that he was right.

[Sarmatian]

It was not just one single thing, the joke towards you was neither the beginning nor the end of it and it is correct that you had not much to do with it. There was a conflict in terms of rules. Should we allow mods to say things members are not allowed to say or should we allow it because it was a joke? In the first case the members would complain that mods have special rights in terms of speech and in the letter case, members could insult eachother and then claim it was a joke.

Bollox. I've learned some things in the meantime (and Prole's post confirmed it), and it had nothing to do with that. We've allowed far worse before and since with no consequences. I can't even blame ACIN any more. If it hadn't been him, it would've been something else.

In one single stroke of pettiness, we were robbed of BQ, Louis and Adrian, certainly among our best and brightest. It's a disgrace and someone should at least be a man and own up to it instead of hiding behind "we don't want to reveal anything out of respect to them".

[Csargo]

unreal that Fragony of all people doesn't know what the joke was that led to Louis getting tossed.

the staff got trolled very hard by a loser who had an axe to grind with Louis. the staff took the troll's side. it's grated on me since but for some reason, probably my nostalgia from the Rome 1 era of the forum, I took a role back here. I've sat here half heartedly barely moderating much and I attribute most of that discouragement to the way the admins handled Louis and BG. I'm a pretty big coward for having done this. I'm sorry to you all

anyway, 10 years. it's largely due to this backroom that I've gone from a raging Conservative Club (lol) member to spending free time on grass roots efforts for Sanders. I learned a lot back here and am very grateful to have found this place at an age when I needed it most.

Glad to see you still around. Chatroom nostalgia is the only reason I'm still around here. I also enjoy reading the threads here in the Backroom, but I don't really post. It's just become something of a habit for me to visit. Maybe I'm just hoping that I'll see some people from way back post again. People who were hilarious and smart, and I learned a lot from about a lot of different things. I really miss those people... There's still a few around, but a lot are gone. I'm not sure where I was going with this really, just miss the good ole days. I don't have any idea what happened to Louis, I've always wondered about that. He seemed like a really good guy from what I could tell, really funny as well.

tl;dr Sad nostalgia

[Beskar]

In one single stroke of pettiness, we were robbed of BQ, Louis and Adrian, certainly among our best and brightest. It's a disgrace and someone should at least be a man and own up to it instead of hiding behind "we don't want to reveal anything out of respect to them".

Just a question, do you think it is appropriate to discuss some of the more private interactions with members (like Louis)..
1) without their their permission.
2) in circumstances they cannot refute, deny or defend statements.

Because honestly, in my opinion, that is a can of worms that shouldn't be opened.

[Greyblades]

Could someone please just tell us non veterans what happened with Lois?

[Fragony]

It was not just one single thing, the joke towards you was neither the beginning nor the end of it and it is correct that you had not much to do with it. There was a conflict in terms of rules. Should we allow mods to say things members are not allowed to say or should we allow it because it was a joke? In the first case the members would complain that mods have special rights in terms of speech and in the letter case, members could insult eachother and then claim it was a joke. That was more or less how it began and was endlessly debated until it actually escalated. As long as there was just a debate, noone was going to get fired, that only came up when instead of apologizing and forgetting about it, Louis decided to one-up his questionable approach to the matter in order to prove some kind of point that he was right.

Not 'not much to do with it', but 'anything at all'. I just heard about it now

[Sarmatian]

Just a question, do you think it is appropriate to discuss some of the more private interactions with members (like Louis)..
1) without their their permission.
2) in circumstances they cannot refute, deny or defend statements.


1) Those mentioned already proved they don't care what happens here by leaving and never looking back.

2) There's no need for you to give us your version - simply post the thread or threads from moderator's private garden here and allow everyone to draw conclusions for themselves.


Could someone please just tell us non veterans what happened with Lois?

Read Prole's post. The only detail omitted is that a rather big part of the .Org staff (mostly those not involved in the backroom) were just waiting for an opportunity and ACIN delivered it to them on a silver platter. Louis and Banquo left and Adrian followed suit after learning the reasons of their decision.

[Beskar]

Could someone please just tell us non veterans what happened with Lois?
Here are threads related to Louis-gate.

BQ complaining one (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?136996-Smooth-BQ-Smooth)
Initial Thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?138093-International-board-or-something-and-the-mods-and-ciao)
The Louis post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137044-Gender&p=2053351018&viewfull=1#post2053351018) in question.
One of the later Louis topics (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?138204-A-Question-of-Context)

There are a few deleted posts, and a few threads by Louis with creative titles involving a certain word. But that should cover the jist.

Edit: For context, the Org was very strict back then on words. I myself received an infraction for using the word 'Damn'.

[GeneralHankerchief]

In addition to the above, here's a choice Watchtower thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?141146-I-miss-Adrian-Louis-and-Tribesman) from several months after the issue.

As somebody who was an active staff member at the time this went down, I'm going to respect the rules of not discussing what went on behind the scenes, but a couple of quotes from the linked thread do a good job of summing it up:


Some people see the org as a place where they hang out and chat with other people they like chatting with, and see the rules as being useful to the extent that they allow this to happen without much fuss. Other people imagine that the whole business of who broke a rule and whether there is fairness or bias etc is extremely important and worth pages and pages of internet drama, with accusations and demands for apology and orgies of hand-wringing. These people are usually not the most frequent posters in the backroom and so don't really care if people get fed up with silly drama and stop posting.

"Louis-gate" in a nutshell.


Hmmm. It's not quite as simple as that, Strike. Louis had several opportunities to defuse the situation, and he didn't take them. It was a classic "this could have been sorted out with an apology and a laugh" kinda escalating, cascading event. Actually, thinking about it, Louisgate kinda resembled a classic tragicomedy in that way, lots of people making marginal calls that add up to a big, painful dénouement.

As well as everything Andres posted in the thread as well.

Some of the trolls who actively contributed to the loss of these members posting in this very thread (not you ACIN) to celebrate their demise has been an absolute hoot though, so this has been fun.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Wow, rereading the shibumi thread. That drunk clown guy trolled me harder than anyone else. We joked about being the same person, then when it came to the Louis threads he amped it up too much.

[Beskar]

*referring to the not saying stuff*

Here are the rules of being a staff member as set out by TosaInu. All staff members have had to agree to:

Your expected conduct as a moderator:

-You will endeavor to keep in mind that the forum belongs to the totalwar.org patrons and not to you personally.

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Note: if you have a continuing problem with a particular you must contact the forum administrator.
Hence before you delete any posts make sure you note the IP address of the offending patron(s); which as a moderator you will now be empowered to view.

Note: It is an outside possibility that you will at some point have to make a decision to close a thread because of it's content. Closing threads is always preferable to deleting them, though you are totally within your right to do either given the circumstance.
And as was previously stated: endeavour to keep your forum-area free of non-relevant content by sending wayward threads to the OT forum, patch related posts to the Editing/Mods/Patches forum, and so forth.

Note: There is a behind the scenes "staff forum" to help the Moderators and Admins coordinate site business, you can contact TosaInu about that and he'll send you the direct link to the forum along with access password. Generally it is a good idea not to mention the staff forum to the other patrons because I find that they tend to get uneasy if they think that there is something going on that they are not a part of + don't post anything irrelevant in the staff form either.


Andres has also made a very eloquent post on this topic in the past.

I know it's not satisfying and I know it sounds "company"-like and all that.

I understand you love Louis and his contributions. Heck, I miss his posts too.

It's just that it has been .Org policy for years not to discuss sanctions in public without the consent of the member involved. I've always seen and understood that rule as a form of courtesy and respect toward the member who broke the rules. Everybody deserves a new chance. Plenty of people have gotten plenty of chances. Louis deserves that too.

If Louis wants to come back with a WT thread to discuss what happened in public, then that's fine and things will be discussed in public; with his approval and the chance for him to give his version and interpretation. However, if Louis wants to let this rest and come back once all the dust has settled, in a more discrete way, with a few witty posts here and there, then that's fine too. If he prefers not to come back at all, then that's less fine, but not much we can do about it.

If I'm now going to discuss with non involved parties, in public, the details of what happened, then that would be very unfair towards him. First because, like everybody else here, he deserves the courtesy and respect not to make private stuff public; secondly, because he wouldn't have a chance to give his version if I made everything public in his absence; thirdly, who says he wants it to be made public?

You want it to be public knowledge, but it's not your call. Nor mine. Louis is the only one who is entitled to decide if this story should be made public or not.

If Louis wants to come back, he's more than welcome. There will be no grudges, no bad feelings, no ill will. It's sad that it had to happen, but it doesn't mean he's no longer welcome here. On the contrary. He'll be welcomed back with open arms and a pat on the back, as far as I'm concerned. Let that be clear.

But if, when and how he comes back, is his decision and his choice. It's not up to us (you nor me) to decide for him if, how or when he comes back.

:bow:

[a completely inoffensive name]

Read Prole's post. The only detail omitted is that a rather big part of the .Org staff (mostly those not involved in the backroom) were just waiting for an opportunity and ACIN delivered it to them on a silver platter. Louis and Banquo left and Adrian followed suit after learning the reasons of their decision.

Yep, I was the big troll for wanting Louis to apologize for using a gay slur and I enabled a faction of the mods to dump all over Louis. Thus, I caused the downfall of the backroom. The reason most people blame me is because they still thought I was trolling, when the reality is that I was making contributions for a while at that point. I don't blame people for thinking that and I don't want to incite people, but I want it known the anger was genuine although I should not have gotten so worked up about it. If you don't believe me when I say I was being genuine, look up my reaction to Vuk three years ago when he made some terrible statements about gays.

[Strike For The South]

We clearly remain as intractable as we were 3 years ago. Lucky for most of you I am paitent man.

[Beskar]

We clearly remain as intractable as we were 3 years ago. Lucky for most of you I am paitent man.

Out of curiosity, what do you hope can be achieved and what do you think there is to make this so?

Unfortunateness of Louis going missing is that it is self-exile, and we cannot force him to return. There is no place for a hatchet to go, other than to be buried.

[Strike For The South]

I like a good roll in the mud. It's part of my winning personality. Louis was my best internet friend, I'm nothing if not loyal.

not to mention the level of discourse has plummeted and the banter is at an all time low. Need to spice things up.

i was perfectly happy celebrating a decade here with a tacit nod to an all old friend. I did not bring up the incident but I will not stand by and let history be rewritten

[Husar]

I like a good roll in the mud. It's part of my winning personality. Louis was my best internet friend, I'm nothing if not loyal.

not to mention the level of discourse has plummeted and the banter is at an all time low. Need to spice things up.

i was perfectly happy celebrating a decade here with a tacit nod to an all old friend. I did not bring up the incident but I will not stand by and let history be rewritten

What history is being rewritten and why can you not stay in contact with Louis?
Even if he does not want to come back here, there are other ways to stay in contact.


The only detail omitted is that a rather big part of the .Org staff (mostly those not involved in the backroom) were just waiting for an opportunity and ACIN delivered it to them on a silver platter. Louis and Banquo left and Adrian followed suit after learning the reasons of their decision.

Oh, there it is, rewriting history.
Banquo decided to leave IIRC, it made me very sad.
So what were the reasons of their decision? I am almost sure that Louis told some members his side of the story, but I can only guess what exactly that was as they don't seem to want to disclose any of it either....

[Beskar]

I just discovered I was erroneous in some of my views, so some of my previous posts were inaccurate. Apologies for that and removing. :bow:

[Gilrandir]

There was a conflict in terms of rules. Should we allow mods to say things members are not allowed to say or should we allow it because it was a joke? In the first case the members would complain that mods have special rights in terms of speech and in the letter case, members could insult eachother and then claim it was a joke.

"Letter" means "a message", "latter" - the last of the mentioned.

Sorry, couldn't help it. But why should I be sorry? After your "than vs then" correction, I feel entitiled to correct you in kind.

[Husar]

"Letter" means "a message", "latter" - the last of the mentioned.

Sorry, couldn't help it. But why should I be sorry? After your "than vs then" correction, I feel entitiled to correct you in kind.

I am aware of this, it was a typo and you are absolutely correct.
Thank you for pointing it out.

[Sarmatian]

Oh, there it is, rewriting history.
Banquo decided to leave IIRC, it made me very sad.
So what were the reasons of their decision? I am almost sure that Louis told some members his side of the story, but I can only guess what exactly that was as they don't seem to want to disclose any of it either....

Why should it be disclosed? I can respect privacy, too.

On the other hand, you know perfectly well what transpired. You were a moderator back then and had access to private moderator forum.

"A muslim fag" was just a convenient excuse. We've left far worse things go unpunished. Could have Louis acted differently? Possibly, but then he wouldn't be Louis. And it wasn't just him. Adrian and Banquo, too. Those three were definitely amongst our most intelligent posters. I'm sure you remember those days, back when we used to discuss different things around here, before it deteriorated to 94th version of "why muslims suck" and "gunbortion" 97th version.

[Beskar]

On the other hand, you know perfectly well what transpired. You were a moderator back then and had access to private moderator forum

I am going to clear something up. Moderators wouldn't have known what transpired as it was an administration decision which they are not privy to. They only know that Louis was de-greened and put 1+1 together, something that I did myself and so did the rest of the board. I only discovered last night the administration decision behind the action, but the only way to know what was said for sure is to break in a Louis and Ser Clegane's accounts to read PMs to confirm it. This is an action I don't find suitable nor I am willing to make.

The reasons Louis left are private to himself. For some people, Louis-gate is enough of a reason, the idea the Frenchman wouldn't lie low, waving his flag in a foolish, but heroic manner, before being struck down. It has that romantic appeal. But I can assure everyone there is no conspiracy, there was no 'backstabbing' and the reasons Louis left are unrelated to BQ.

If you have specific concerns, feel free to message me and I will address them.

[whyidie]

Louis was not banned from the Org, his choice to leave was his free will and isn't/hasn't been barred from coming back at anytime.

Thats really all there is to it then. Added a lot of colour to the forums, wasn't suited for moderation, sad he went, but ultimately he chose to go.

...and congrats on reaching the decade mark!

[Viking]

Can't say I feel the nostalgia some do, but it's always lame when interesting voices go silent for whatever reason. As far as debates go, diversity is a must.

Also, '05-ers ftw.


Ive done basically a 180 on most issues so... great success! Now give me another eight years here and Im sure I will have done a full 360.

:2thumbsup:

I wouldn't be too surprised, such a cycle makes sense in some contexts: uninformed position 1 → better informed position 2 → even better informed position 1. It's a matter of switching to gradually better and more informed arguments, which can take one on any kind of path; all depending on the arguments one started out with and the new arguments one is exposed to.

[Husar]

Why should it be disclosed? I can respect privacy, too.

Didn't you ask us to make the Keep threads public? It's a bit like asking to make someone's PMs public.


On the other hand, you know perfectly well what transpired. You were a moderator back then and had access to private moderator forum.

I would like to know what you think transpired because I have a suspicion that what you think is not what I know about.
Or maybe just see below.


"A muslim fag" was just a convenient excuse. We've left far worse things go unpunished. Could have Louis acted differently? Possibly, but then he wouldn't be Louis.

As Beskar said, I do not know for sure what ultimately led to the decision to demote Louis, but I have a very strong suspicion that the things the trolls were concerned about were a minor reason at best and not really sufficient to reach such a decision. What I can perhaps tell you is that the vast majority of Moderators who disagreed with Louis' public statements did NOT want to see him demoted for those comments. A correction, perhaps even an apology, yes, but a demotion was NOT wanted. That it came to be one anyway was most likely because of Louis' reaction(s) to the whole affair but I cannot know this for sure either.

[Fragony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQMoFWfFPzQ

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Here are threads related to Louis-gate.

BQ complaining one (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?136996-Smooth-BQ-Smooth)
Initial Thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?138093-International-board-or-something-and-the-mods-and-ciao)
The Louis post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137044-Gender&p=2053351018&viewfull=1#post2053351018) in question.
One of the later Louis topics (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?138204-A-Question-of-Context)

There are a few deleted posts, and a few threads by Louis with creative titles involving a certain word. But that should cover the jist.

Edit: For context, the Org was very strict back then on words. I myself received an infraction for using the word 'Damn'.

Well, two of those are threads where everyone says how great BG is/was.

Also - where the hell was I in all this?

I mean, I remember it happening but I apparently wasn't involved?

[InsaneApache]

Banquo had nothing to do with Louis leaving. I'll leave it at that.

This.

I was in PM contact with Louis all through the farce and it was the rank hypocrisy that decided it was enough for him.

[Gilrandir]

Also - where the hell was I in all this?



Perhaps posting in the drunk thread?:laugh4:

[Kagemusha]

My opinion has not changed from what i had to say back then when this was an issue, both at public forum and staff forum. I think Louis was going through a tough period in his life because of some things that happened in his personal life and that projected into his behavior also here in Org. At that point some people did not give him any leeway he deserved and many of us including myself have got in the past from the Org Administration and the rest is history.

The whole affair can be seen from several point of views, but the end result remains. We lost a good patron and his contributions and to me that is bad thing for all of us who populate this forum.

[Sarmatian]

This.

I was in PM contact with Louis all through the farce and it was the rank hypocrisy that decided it was enough for him.

It didn't have anything to do directly, but they both left for the same reason. And Adrian then left because Banquo informed him why he left.

Both suffered abuse from other moderators and administrators, mostly from those rarely involved in off-topic part of the forum, and both decided they had enough. Some of it was public, some of it happened in the moderator's forum, and some through PM's.


Didn't you ask us to make the Keep threads public? It's a bit like asking to make someone's PMs public.


I asked to allow us plebs to see the relevant discussion(s) that went on in the moderator private forum. I didn't ask to see private messages.

[GeneralHankerchief]

It didn't have anything to do directly, but they both left for the same reason. And Adrian then left because Banquo informed him why he left.

Both suffered abuse from other moderators and administrators, mostly from those rarely involved in off-topic part of the forum, and both decided they had enough. Some of it was public, some of it happened in the moderator's forum, and some through PM's.



I asked to allow us plebs to see the relevant discussion(s) that went on in the moderator private forum. I didn't ask to see private messages.

"I am confident enough in my knowledge of what happened in discussions I was not privy to to publicly recount them"

"I want to see transcripts of what happened in staff discussion so as to better understand what happened"

Pick one.

[Kralizec]

This.

I was in PM contact with Louis all through the farce and it was the rank hypocrisy that decided it was enough for him.

From what Louis told me at the time, I understand that Banquo stepped down as a mod for related reasons. My previous post was mostly directed at Kadagar's theory that Banquo was somehow responsible for Louis' departure.

I've never heard about Adrian's departure being related.

[Sarmatian]

"I am confident enough in my knowledge of what happened in discussions I was not privy to to publicly recount them"

"I want to see transcripts of what happened in staff discussion so as to better understand what happened"

Pick one.

I'm confident enough in my knowledge of what happened. I'm also tired of the mantra how everything was fine and dandy and those two inexplicably decided to leave, leaving the rest of the staff aghast and surprised because of the unprovoked move. And now everyone wants them back.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm confident enough in my knowledge of what happened. I'm also tired of the mantra how everything was fine and dandy and those two inexplicably decided to leave, leaving the rest of the staff aghast and surprised because of the unprovoked move. And now everyone wants them back.

Then your confidence is misplaced.

I'm going to make an assumption, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that your perceived knowledge of what happened came directly from private messaging with Louis.

I know this is difficult to do considering the party involved and his relationship to you and this forum, but if you examine the source from a nonbiased perspective, as a historian would do, then it doesn't quite hold up to increased scrutiny.

Assuming your best source is Louis, you're getting a primary source, which is obviously very valuable when examining the greater picture, but only as a part of the whole and not as a standalone. Assuming Louis was contacting you as the entire thing was reaching its later stages, or even somewhat after that, you have to take into account the fact that he wouldn't have any incentive to provide a detached, dispassionate account of what was going on. He would be venting to his friends. As would all of us.

It's why I'm getting a little twigged at all these cries of "slander" from all of those whose sources are presumably Louis and what happened in the Watchtower threads at the time; they're presumably all originating from one single source. From someone else's point of view, it could easily be turned around and I could say the same thing to those who are directing it as a kind of dolchstoßlegende against staff at the time. Slander is a matter of perception.

The alternative to this is that you and others received leaks of what was discussed in staff forums directly from Louis or someone else, in which case the leaker would be in gross violation of the moderator code of conduct we all agreed to and which Beskar posted earlier in the thread.

[Brenus]

"I've never heard about Adrian's departure being related." As much I remember Adrian never intend to stay. He was a journalist making inquiries about forums.
As Louis is concerned, I don#'t remember a thing. Was there, then gone, as the other French I don't remember his avatar... Yes, he was a good opponent/ally and I regret him. But life sometimes takes path which leads out of internet.

I was just killed on line because my wife insisted I had to empty the bin... And it couldn't WAIT!!!!

[Sarmatian]

Then your confidence is misplaced.

I'm going to make an assumption, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that your perceived knowledge of what happened came directly from private messaging with Louis.

I know this is difficult to do considering the party involved and his relationship to you and this forum, but if you examine the source from a nonbiased perspective, as a historian would do, then it doesn't quite hold up to increased scrutiny.

Assuming your best source is Louis, you're getting a primary source, which is obviously very valuable when examining the greater picture, but only as a part of the whole and not as a standalone. Assuming Louis was contacting you as the entire thing was reaching its later stages, or even somewhat after that, you have to take into account the fact that he wouldn't have any incentive to provide a detached, dispassionate account of what was going on. He would be venting to his friends. As would all of us.

It's why I'm getting a little twigged at all these cries of "slander" from all of those whose sources are presumably Louis and what happened in the Watchtower threads at the time; they're presumably all originating from one single source. From someone else's point of view, it could easily be turned around and I could say the same thing to those who are directing it as a kind of dolchstoßlegende against staff at the time. Slander is a matter of perception.

The alternative to this is that you and others received leaks of what was discussed in staff forums directly from Louis or someone else, in which case the leaker would be in gross violation of the moderator code of conduct we all agreed to and which Beskar posted earlier in the thread.

This is exactly the bullshit I'm sick of. For the record, I didn't exchange a single PM with Louis. I've learned about from PM with those who were in contact with Louis. So, I don't even have a single primary source. Several secondary sources at best. Also, I didn't have a bromance with Louis like Strike did. We exchanged a few jokes over the years, but by and large, we were talking only in the backroom and monastery. I didn't even know what was going on until I noticed that Louis simply isn't posting anymore, and I found out only recently that it's all related to BG and Adrian leaving.

BUT, I don't really need any of that to understand what was going on. Two years later, one of the guys who trolled Louis and demanded a public punishment, ACIN, called another member "slut" in jest. You could try and look for a lifetime for such a perfect equivalence. No one batted an eye. When I pointed it out, Andres' explanation was "well, we're not as strict now".

There are dozens of examples before and since, and it appears we became "strict" for just a short period of time, to demand of Louis to repent his wicked ways and apologize, and after he was gone, we returned to "not so strict" ways. Screw that.

And now everyone is going "ooh, we miss him" and "we maybe shouldn't have done that", even those who actively trolled him, together with those who refused to get involved or simply just joined the majority.

I dare say, the loss of those three members is the primary reason why the backroom deteriorated so much.



I was just killed on line because my wife insisted I had to empty the bin... And it couldn't WAIT!!!!

That's an emergency. The trash, if left unchecked, can threaten Gotham City.

[Beskar]

BUT, I don't really need any of that to understand what was going on. Two years later, one of the guys who trolled Louis and demanded a public punishment, ACIN, called another member "slut" in jest. You could try and look for a lifetime for such a perfect equivalence. No one batted an eye. When I pointed it out, Andres' explanation was "well, we're not as strict now".

There are dozens of examples before and since, and it appears we became "strict" for just a short period of time, to demand of Louis to repent his wicked ways and apologize, and after he was gone, we returned to "not so strict" ways. Screw that.

Further we look in the past, stricter things were.

For example, you used to post at least 10 times in the Entrance Hall before you could post anywhere else, after you have been 'approved'.
Then there was the Junior Member system where you couldn't edit your posts and restricted in where you could post. The edit part was a little painful for me, as I am a sucker for constantly tweaking posts, that whole 'oh, I should include this, or reword that' once you left the room sensation.
The Backroom used to be a sealed off fortress where you had to be vetted before you could even read it.
I acquired infractions for using the term 'Damn', I got a warning for calling another member 'sillybilly' when it was said in jest, as it was classed as a personal attack.
This is how strict it was, thus, by comparison, Louis's not even getting a post edit for saying 'muslim fag' was used as an argument of hypocrisy.

Suggesting it was strict for a few minutes to somehow bump Louis off is fantasy.

[Greyblades]

I have memories of getting a warning for saying "hell", apparantly it was too close to an abbreviation of Helvete, a swedish swearword.

[Sarmatian]

That was done for practical reasons, backroom being trolled by some activist group or other, and the practice was discontinued as soon as the reason for its implementation ceased to exist.



Suggesting it was strict for a few minutes to somehow bump Louis off is fantasy.

I'm suggesting that good natured jesting was never a cause for persecution, and that there were many worse examples left unsanctioned. ACIN and Drunken Clown played into hands of some of the staff members who disliked Louis and Banquo, who then pulled a dusty rule book and said look, insulting other members ist verboten, calling someone a fag is an insult, so let's get them.

Don't make me go look for examples.

[GeneralHankerchief]

This is exactly the bullshit I'm sick of. For the record, I didn't exchange a single PM with Louis. I've learned about from PM with those who were in contact with Louis. So, I don't even have a single primary source. Several secondary sources at best. Also, I didn't have a bromance with Louis like Strike did. We exchanged a few jokes over the years, but by and large, we were talking only in the backroom and monastery. I didn't even know what was going on until I noticed that Louis simply isn't posting anymore, and I found out only recently that it's all related to BG and Adrian leaving.

BUT, I don't really need any of that to understand what was going on. Two years later, one of the guys who trolled Louis and demanded a public punishment, ACIN, called another member "slut" in jest. You could try and look for a lifetime for such a perfect equivalence. No one batted an eye. When I pointed it out, Andres' explanation was "well, we're not as strict now".

There are dozens of examples before and since, and it appears we became "strict" for just a short period of time, to demand of Louis to repent his wicked ways and apologize, and after he was gone, we returned to "not so strict" ways. Screw that.

Wow, okay, the misconceptions are starting to pile up here.

Firstly, in the year between Louis's departure and you receiving your apparently unsatisfying response from Andres (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?145598-Acin-a-senior-member-really&p=2053549408&viewfull=1#post2053549408), the forum had gone through several different administrators. At the time of Louis's departure, Ser Clegane was the sole admin, having ascended to the post in light of Tosa's passing. By that time the following year, Ser Clegane had stepped down with Andres, frogbeastegg, and Secura having taken his place. There was lots of other restructuring behind the scenes that followed, but I think it's safe to say that there's a fairly obvious connection between the change in administrators and the change in policies.

Second of all, if there was any inconsistency in how people are treated beyond the concept of policies changing with time and people being human, it is because moderators were and are expected to uphold a higher standard of conduct.

Thirdly, I'm sure you're aware of how closely your argument is starting to lean towards "but Truthiness!" so I won't elaborate on the matter.

:bow:

[a completely inoffensive name]

Someone is taking this too seriously.

[Kagemusha]

Further we look in the past, stricter things were.

For example, you used to post at least 10 times in the Entrance Hall before you could post anywhere else, after you have been 'approved'.
Then there was the Junior Member system where you couldn't edit your posts and restricted in where you could post. The edit part was a little painful for me, as I am a sucker for constantly tweaking posts, that whole 'oh, I should include this, or reword that' once you left the room sensation.
The Backroom used to be a sealed off fortress where you had to be vetted before you could even read it.
I acquired infractions for using the term 'Damn', I got a warning for calling another member 'sillybilly' when it was said in jest, as it was classed as a personal attack.
This is how strict it was, thus, by comparison, Louis's not even getting a post edit for saying 'muslim fag' was used as an argument of hypocrisy.

Suggesting it was strict for a few minutes to somehow bump Louis off is fantasy.

Sorry Beskar but with all due respect, i have to call BS to that. You are talking about trees not the forest here.

To be honest. I would not go commenting something as an Admin you have little experience of the matter itself. This discussion is not about forum rules or how those are being maintained per se, but administrative issues and personal chemistries.

[Sarmatian]

Wow, okay, the misconceptions are starting to pile up here.

Firstly, in the year between Louis's departure and you receiving your apparently unsatisfying response from Andres (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?145598-Acin-a-senior-member-really&p=2053549408&viewfull=1#post2053549408), the forum had gone through several different administrators. At the time of Louis's departure, Ser Clegane was the sole admin, having ascended to the post in light of Tosa's passing. By that time the following year, Ser Clegane had stepped down with Andres, frogbeastegg, and Secura having taken his place. There was lots of other restructuring behind the scenes that followed, but I think it's safe to say that there's a fairly obvious connection between the change in administrators and the change in policies.

You obviously didn't notice my clever use of "ist verboten". Or maybe it wasn't as clever as I thought it was.

I'm aware of that. I blame quite a few of those people you mentioned. And I blame some others for not standing up for BG and Louis. Beskar's post in that very thread...


This post was so tempting to go off-topic, but to condense what I want to write, the Org staff from back then was a powderkeg waiting to explode and it erupted into Fag-gate. This erupted resulted into a brand new era and direction for the Org as innovation and reform was stifled heavily by the 'Unwritten Code' which some staff members fought tooth and nail to keep, to the detriment to the Org. This 'code' was finally broken as Fag-gate caused what was perceived to be the 'Unthinkable' to be done. In one light, you could think of Louis as a matyr, ushering a new start for the Org, in the other, he was a man just like everyone else who has their flaws caught up in an untenable situation.

... also proves I'm right. Although that new start never materialized, cavalry came only after the Indians killed John Wayne and Garry Cooper.


Second of all, if there was any inconsistency in how people are treated beyond the concept of policies changing with time and people being human, it is because moderators were and are expected to uphold a higher standard of conduct.

Don't give me that. No one was insulted, but apparently, some of the staff took the effort to bleed on Fragony's behalf.


Thirdly, I'm sure you're aware of how closely your argument is starting to lean towards "but Truthiness!" so I won't elaborate on the matter.

:bow:

No I'm not. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to not give a rat's ass about it.

[Strike For The South]

The warning system was never implemented with an even hand. Which is fine, moderators are people and they do this for free. I just can't get behind the idea that we were so much stricter back then. I was constantly gettitng away with bullying other members, it was fantastic. Then those other memebers complained and they got banned. The good old days were good indeed.

louis was railroaded, banqou left because of the children, and now finding a member who can interact in a social suiuation is a cause for celebration.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Beskar also corrected himself (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149315-10-years&p=2053648289&viewfull=1#post2053648289) about his previous perceptions earlier in this thread, so the post of his you quoted is not accurate. (-edit- post directed towards Sarmation, I started writing before SFTS replied)

Anyway, congrats again Strike. :medievalcheers:

[Sarmatian]

Beskar also corrected himself (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149315-10-years&p=2053648289&viewfull=1#post2053648289) about his previous perceptions earlier in this thread, so the post of his you quoted is not accurate. (-edit- post directed towards Sarmation, I started writing before SFTS replied)



I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that post.

[Beskar]

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that post.

That post was done a couple of years back, but some elements are correct. As I said earlier on which Kagemusha quoted, the Org used to be a lot stricter place and it was through a period of transition due to the unfortunate departure of TosaInu. Kagemusha is also correct in reply that it wasn't solely the rules themselves but the personal behind its enforcement occurring at different standards which led to issues in itself as well.

On of the consequences of the event, the Org experienced a liberalisation in the standards of the moderation. This is something which some members welcomed, whilst others have been critical of. So instead of moderation being more pro-active, moderation became more reactive to the members. The concept of pro-active moderation with the shifts in the expectation of wider internet society can be seen as a powderkeg which was waiting to explode, as should moderators be beat cops ensuring everyone in compliance, or are they the facilitators?

Personally, I like to think even though I may disagree with some patrons in the backroom with my opinions on some subject matters, they also know I don't 'abuse' my powers and trust me not to do so, and in any situation I felt my integrity has been compromised, I have always referred the matter to someone else to handle.

In the post you quoted, I was erroneous on the assumption at that time about Louis as it was the de facto belief that the reason was solely because of Louis-gate. I believe this is what GH was meaning.

The 'Unthinkable' mentioned in the post was the idea of a moderator ever being 'stripped off' the green as it was (I believe) the first time it had ever occurred and was a very reluctant action for that very same reason.

[Husar]

You guys are funny.
The Dolchstoßlegende is big in this one.

Also, what about Hosakawa Tito?

[Fragony]

No one was insulted, but apparently, some of the staff took the effort to bleed on Fragony's behalf.


Not on my behalf, I didn't even know about that post, and I certainly wouldn't have complained if I had.

[Husar]

Not on my behalf, I didn't even know about that post, and I certainly wouldn't have complained if I had.

I don't know why people keep mentioning you, maybe it is based on what Louis told some but it makes little sense.
Louis was not suitable or bearable as a moderator anymore IMO and I personally asked Ser Clegane to demote him. Whether that was the deciding factor I do not know as there may as well have been others and I was not involved in the decision.
If he told someone that I held a grudge against him anyway or that I backstabbed him, that wouldn't be the only stuff he made up at the time to avoid admitting a mistake...

So much for my version.

[Gilrandir]

Further we look in the past, stricter things were.

I acquired infractions for using the term 'Damn', I got a warning for calling another member 'sillybilly' when it was said in jest, as it was classed as a personal attack.


And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it. Cheers.

[Husar]

And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it. Cheers.

Nations don't have feelings, they only exist in our heads.

[Fragony]

I don't know why people keep mentioning you, maybe it is based on what Louis told some but it makes little sense.
Louis was not suitable or bearable as a moderator anymore IMO and I personally asked Ser Clegane to demote him. Whether that was the deciding factor I do not know as there may as well have been others and I was not involved in the decision.
If he told someone that I held a grudge against him anyway or that I backstabbed him, that wouldn't be the only stuff he made up at the time to avoid admitting a mistake...

So much for my version.

You guys have explained yourself well enough, I know it isn't about me, I just don't want people to get the idea that I got a hand in this as I was oblivious about this whole affair, I never knew why these guys left. I don't think the moderators did anything wrong, rules are rules. I also got warning-points I thought were unfair but I never took it personal. Some newer posters seem to think some are privileged, all of this couldn't make it clearer that that assumption is wrong.

[Brenus]

"And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it." Were you in the org during the period of "cheese eater surrendering monkeys" period?
The org is still one forum largely above other sites for the good behiavour and conduct in debate. Not perfect, but at least no insult. Sometimes it is borderlines, but it is within an acceptable fringe.

[Sarmatian]

I don't know why people keep mentioning you, maybe it is based on what Louis told some but it makes little sense.
Louis was not suitable or bearable as a moderator anymore IMO and I personally asked Ser Clegane to demote him. Whether that was the deciding factor I do not know as there may as well have been others and I was not involved in the decision.
If he told someone that I held a grudge against him anyway or that I backstabbed him, that wouldn't be the only stuff he made up at the time to avoid admitting a mistake...

So much for my version.

Thank you. That wasn't so hard, now was it?

He often lied to cover up his mistakes. I didn't want him to be moderator and I wanted him removed, and I personally intervened to have him stripped of it. It had nothing to do with him calling Fragony a muslim fag in jest.

This is what I've been saying, all along. Fag was just a convenient excuse by people who wanted him removed.

And this is infinitely more fair than the company line we've been fed for 4 years now. But, you're not the biggest fish that needs to be fried here...


Not on my behalf, I didn't even know about that post, and I certainly wouldn't have complained if I had.

I know, that's why I said it. You weren't even aware and wouldn't have been insulted even if you were, but some staff members were insulted on your behalf and used it to remove Louis, as a part of a bigger, hidden feud going on in the moderators private forum, which was also the real reason why BG and Louis left.

[Beskar]

And this is infinitely more fair than the company line we've been fed for 4 years now.

More the rules don't allow a lot of communication on the matter.

You haven't actually been fed a company line, it was more that we cannot talk about infractions and personal issues without the persons consent and Louis is a consenting adult. So if he came in here and discussed it, then it is clear he is giving his permission, thus we could.

This is different to 'company line' as I believe that is where you are forcing a version of events, which isn't the case or not the intention. The quoted Husar post is just him simply saying about what he felt/did at the time as a role of a member.

So apologies for any impression that I might have given which appears I am trying to be deceitful. :bow:

[Kagemusha]

I know, that's why I said it. You weren't even aware and wouldn't have been insulted even if you were, but some staff members were insulted on your behalf and used it to remove Louis, as a part of a bigger, hidden feud going on in the moderators private forum, which was also the real reason why BG and Louis left.

Leaving of Louis and Banquo were completely separate incidents and as far as i can recall Banquo´s leaving had no drama connected to it.

Ever since Tosa passed away trough the point i gave away my Mod ropes, to the point i asked my Keep access to be terminated. I had hard time agreeing with most of Administrations line of thinking, while certainly my own attitude was far from being very constructive. In any case i dont agree that there was some sort of systematical "cleansing" going on in the staff, like some seem to think. Rather just bunch of worn out and worried people trying to achieve what they thought was best for the site.

[Sarmatian]

Leaving of Louis and Banquo were completely separate incidents and as far as i can recall Banquo´s leaving had no drama connected to it.

Not according to Louis and Banquo. Banquo just stepped down quietly.


Ever since Tosa passed away trough the point i gave away my Mod ropes, to the point i asked my Keep access to be terminated. I had hard time agreeing with most of Administrations line of thinking, while certainly my own attitude was far from being very constructive. In any case i dont agree that there was some sort of systematical "cleansing" going on in the staff, like some seem to think. Rather just bunch of worn out and worried people trying to achieve what they thought was best for the site.

It wasn't a systematic cleansing, it was a part of staff coming down on those they disagreed with.

And Adrian leaving because of that. No one thinks there's something odd about Adrian starting a thread thanking Banquo after he stepped down, expressing pleasure that Banquo will stay as a member and then immediately leaving without a single word? Between starting that thread and leaving, Adrian received a pm from BG explaining to him that it wasn't voluntary but that he and Louis were basically forced out. Yes, in the end they stepped down "voluntarily" but only because they didn't want to take the abuse any more. Some of it happened in the moderators forum, but both of them also received quite a few abusive pm's.

In the end, those "worn out" people basically destroyed the backroom/tavern/off topic part of the forum, and most of them had little to no contact with it. Members of the staff who did, instead of telling them to f*** off, joined them or stood idly by.

[Fragony]

"And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it." Were you in the org during the period of "cheese eater surrendering monkeys" period?
The org is still one forum largely above other sites for the good behiavour and conduct in debate. Not perfect, but at least no insult. Sometimes it is borderlines, but it is within an acceptable fringe.

+1

The org is a very civilised place, even when people completily disagree it always stays classy.

[Gilrandir]

Nations don't have feelings, they only exist in our heads.

In this case nation=country=population of it.


"And now you can easily make a chauvinistic and humiliating comment about another nation and get away with it." Were you in the org during the period of "cheese eater surrendering monkeys" period?
The org is still one forum largely above other sites for the good behiavour and conduct in debate. Not perfect, but at least no insult. Sometimes it is borderlines, but it is within an acceptable fringe.
Not from those who are supposed to see to it that the rules are kept.

[Sarmatian]

Not from those who are supposed to see to it that the rules are kept.

Don't turn into a Drunken Clown. It was a joke. Get over it.

[Fragony]

In this case nation=country=population of it.


Not from those who are supposed to see to it that the rules are kept.

There are no rules against nation-bashing as far as I know, I would be a very sad puppy if there were. Just don't take it personal, it's of no use. You are going to get offended here, just get over it and don't act like a Disney princess.

edit, too hilarious to not post https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSz0iVhvqog

[Kagemusha]

Not according to Louis and Banquo. Banquo just stepped down quietly.


It wasn't a systematic cleansing, it was a part of staff coming down on those they disagreed with.

And Adrian leaving because of that. No one thinks there's something odd about Adrian starting a thread thanking Banquo after he stepped down, expressing pleasure that Banquo will stay as a member and then immediately leaving without a single word? Between starting that thread and leaving, Adrian received a pm from BG explaining to him that it wasn't voluntary but that he and Louis were basically forced out. Yes, in the end they stepped down "voluntarily" but only because they didn't want to take the abuse any more. Some of it happened in the moderators forum, but both of them also received quite a few abusive pm's.

In the end, those "worn out" people basically destroyed the backroom/tavern/off topic part of the forum, and most of them had little to no contact with it. Members of the stuff who did, instead of telling them to f*** off, joined them or stood idly by.

And you have any first hand information concerning any of this?

[Fragony]

And you have any first hand information concerning any of this?

Let it rest imho, they aren't comming back as it seems, no need for a maelström for those involved. I for one never expected such a thing happening here, I thought the staff were all friendly with eachother. Must say I am a bit shocked.

[Kagemusha]

Let it rest imho, they aren't comming back as it seems, no need for a maelström for those involved. I for one never expected such a thing happening here, I thought the staff were all friendly with eachother. Must say I am a bit shocked.

You are right. I leave it to that.:bow:

[Sarmatian]

And you have any first hand information concerning any of this?

For some, yes. For others, secondhand.

Most importantly, all the pieces fit perfectly together.


Let it rest imho

Nah. I like exposing hypocrites and cowards.
More importantly, I think it is one of the main reasons why my favourite political discussion board declined in quality so much.

[Husar]

This is what I've been saying, all along. Fag was just a convenient excuse by people who wanted him removed.

See, this is complete BS again because you insinuate that:
1) I wanted him removed even before or during the first part of the affair, that is NOT true.
2) his public comments were somehow the official or inofficial reason given for his removal when in fact Ser Clegane never gave one single reason IIRC.
3) that he was somehow blameless or made only a minor mistake when in fact he backstabbed me several times, tried to discredit me with the other moderators because I voiced my opinion and treated me like a silly child while I repeatedly told him that this made me angry before I asked for him to be removed.

Or are ou saying that because he was funnier than me he had the right to bully me and I should have shut up and taken it?
Tell me why I should be fried at all.

And noone has commented on Hosakawa Tito yet.

[Fragony]

Nah. I like exposing hypocrites and cowards.
More importantly, I think it is one of the main reasons why my favourite political discussion board declined in quality so much.

As I was an involuntary subject that got drawn into this I kindly request that we should just leave it at this. I got hauled in so I deserve a say at least.

[Andres]

Sarmatian Strike For The South

1) Banquo: yes, I feel personnally responsible for his departure. I had my opinion and stood up for it. Along the line, I disregarded the person Banquo and his feelings. I was very harsh and my words were the drop that spilled the bucket for him. He stepped down. I pm'ed him, I apologised to him, he was very gentlemany, as he always was, and he sticked to his decision. But with no hard feelings. He actually stayed around for a very short time after it and then left.

Allthough he assured me that there were no hard feelings and that our friendship was still intact, all those years later, I still feel terrible about it. And rightly so :shame:

2) Louis. He only has himself to blame. Not only because of his behaviour in public, but also because of incidents that occurred in private. Incidents that I witnessed. I wasn't involved in those incidents, they happened between him and other staff members. It was impossible to keep him staff. I stood and am still standing 100 % after the decision made at the time. And allthough it was Ser's decision, I'm not going to be a coward and hide behind his back. He has my full support and if you want to verbally abuse Ser for it, then I'm standing next to him. My predecessor made the right decision. And nothing you say will change that.

If you think atmosphere among staff is/was so rotten that we/they amused/amuse ourselves/themselves with intrigues and forum politics including backstabbing and getting colleagues expelled and other petty games, well, I guess you believe what you want to believe.

:shrug:

Nothing I can change about that.

Food for thought: since Tosa's passing, only 1 staff member ever got himself expelled. 1.

As I said in the Watchtower, Louis is more than welcome to return as a member.

If he decides to start a drama thread in the Watchtower about this, then I'll most probably completely ignore it. Or spank his behind.

If you want to see me rot in a cage, then let me rot in a cage over Banquo, not Louis.

:bow:

[Sarmatian]

See, this is complete BS again because you insinuate that:
1) I wanted him removed even before or during the first part of the affair, that is NOT true.
2) his public comments were somehow the official or inofficial reason given for his removal when in fact Ser Clegane never gave one single reason IIRC.
3) that he was somehow blameless or made only a minor mistake when in fact he backstabbed me several times, tried to discredit me with the other moderators because I voiced my opinion and treated me like a silly child while I repeatedly told him that this made me angry before I asked for him to be removed.

And those statements contradict one another. You say that there was absolutely no other reason you wanted Louis removed but the fag word, and then you mention how he bullied you and ignored your warnings before you asked him to be removed.


Or are ou saying that because he was funnier than me he had the right to bully me and I should have shut up and taken it?
If he indeed bullied you, you should have stood up to him, not go tell on him to the teacher.


Tell me why I should be fried at all.
Because if you and some others had little more spunk, we could have still had BG, Adrian and Louis.


Sarmatian Strike For The South

1) Banquo: yes, I feel personnally responsible for his departure. I had my opinion and stood up for it. Along the line, I disregarded the person Banquo and his feelings. I was very harsh and my words were the drop that spilled the bucket for him. He stepped down. I pm'ed him, I apologised to him, he was very gentlemany, as he always was, and he sticked to his decision. But with no hard feelings. He actually stayed around for a very short time after it and then left.

Allthough he assured me that there were no hard feelings and that our friendship was still intact, all those years later, I still feel terrible about it. And rightly so :shame:

2) Louis. He only has himself to blame. Not only because of his behaviour in public, but also because of incidents that occurred in private. Incidents that I witnessed. I wasn't involved in those incidents, they happened between him and other staff members. It was impossible to keep him staff. I stood and am still standing 100 % after the decision made at the time. And allthough it was Ser's decision, I'm not going to be a coward and hide behind his back. He has my full support and if you want to verbally abuse Ser for it, then I'm standing next to him. My predecessor made the right decision. And nothing you say will change that.

If you think atmosphere among staff is/was so rotten that we/they amused/amuse ourselves/themselves with intrigues and forum politics including backstabbing and getting colleagues expelled and other petty games, well, I guess you believe what you want to believe.


But you fail to see how those two cases are connected, and you're rationalizing now how you were wrong in one instance but right in the other. 50%/50% is better than 100% wrong. Actually, there was just one case and you were wrong. Also, you weren't an innocent bystander, but were actively involved. So, no, I don't buy your explanation.


:shrug:

Nothing I can change about that.

You've done enough already. Save yourself the burden.


Food for thought: since Tosa's passing, only 1 staff member ever got himself expelled. 1.

Because the examples like Banquo, those were bullied into resignation don't count, right? Anyway, I don't care about any others. I care about the backroom that I love. Yes, I'm totally self serving with this, and I'm annoyed that we lost three of our best contributors because people were childish and petty.


As I said in the Watchtower, Louis is more than welcome to return as a member.

He's not coming back, but why are you thinking you have the right to decide his status if he did?


If he decides to start a drama thread in the Watchtower about this, then I'll most probably completely ignore it. Or spank his behind.

If you want to see me rot in a cage, then let me rot in a cage over Banquo, not Louis.

:bow:

Funnily enough, at this point I'd just like for some people to come clean, like Prole did. Or, in your case, to admit that it didn't have anything to do with the word fag, that you disliked him (and BG), and wanted him (them) gone.

I'm blaming you (plural) for Adrian, too, but in that case you didn't do anything directly. You just f***** things up enough so that he left on his own.

[Husar]

You say that there was absolutely no other reason you wanted Louis removed but the fag word

No, I never said that, where did you read this?
What I've been saying or trying to say the entire time was that this was a minor reason at best regarding the final decision but was never the single reason he got demoted.


If he indeed bullied you, you should have stood up to him, not go tell on him to the teacher.

It was completely useless, I had already debated with him and he kept calling others names and the staff became more and more divided until Ser Clegane pulled the plug before it became even worse. Louis was not going to give in and neither was I. The attempts of mine to get to an agreement with him were torpedoed by Louis repeatedly. Whether my PM to Ser Clegane changed anything about the end result I do not know, I was just saying that I did send it and wanted it, but only when it became obvious to me that Louis was lying and manipulating like crazy and blamed others of doing such things. And this was never the behavior that was wanted here by a staff member as far as I can tell. Keeping him around just because he was still funny to you is a ludicrous idea.

Oh and the reason we did not make this public earlier was that we did want him to stay as a member despite the things he did in private. He chose not to.


Because if you and some others had little more spunk, we could have still had BG, Adrian and Louis.

And if Louis had had a little more decency or honesty, he could still be a Moderator here. He is still free to come back as a member and I wouldn't even hold a grudge, the things above happened in the past and I'm willing to forgive to a degree as I was back then when he refused all solutions but that we would give him free reign of sorts.



Because the examples like Banquo, those were bullied into resignation don't count, right? Anyway, I don't care about any others. I care about the backroom that I love. Yes, I'm totally self serving with this

I wouldn't say Bnquo was bullied into resignation.
I for one had no idea how he felt until he resigned and by then his decision was already final and he refused to change it.
People voiced their opinions and he did not feel well with that, it's regrettable but I could only accept it.


and I'm annoyed that we lost three of our best contributors because people were childish and petty.

Louis was childish and petty. He was told that he was wrong and instead of trying to deal with it, he tried to deflect, lie and manipulate his way out because his ego was too big to just say he made a mistake nd defuse the situation. He played with fire and got burnt.


He's not coming back, but why are you thinking you have the right to decide his status if he did?

That was more or less the staff agreement when he got demoted, that he could stay or come back as a member whenever he wanted.
Pretty much everyone had some kind of regret for having to demote him, even the ones who were in favor of the decision because it simply was not a nice affair and should not have happened. That it did happen was due to how Louis behaved though and we could not influence that a lot. As I said, he refused every solution other than full surrender of everyone who thought he made a mistake and that was not an option for me since he was wrong, plain and simple.

[Beskar]

I think at this point, the conversation has reached its natural conclusion. :bow:

Addendum:
Look, I know people are aggrieved and feel like an injustice has been done, and there are those on different sides who haven't had their voices heard, but this is simply going to get worse and I don't feel the argument will be healthy. I would prefer not to get embroiled in moderating members (regular, ex-staff, staff, etc) over this issue for obvious reasons.