I'm hosting a game!

[El Barto]

Well, everyone, I'm willing to host since jht isn't, so I'll start as soon as I get a decent number of signups, i.e. at least ten. Most roles will be vanilla. :)

Come in, everybody!

Sign-ups (11/11):

1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash
3. BSmith
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. vote:Winston Hughes
7. Kagemusha
8. Csargo
9. vote:johnhughthom
10. Montmorency
11. landlubber

Replacements:
Double A

SIGNUPS CLOSED.

Update 1 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149377-I-m-hosting-a-game%21&p=2053648801&viewfull=1#post2053648801) - game begins, post #15, 3/8

Update 2 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149377-I-m-hosting-a-game%21&p=2053649136&viewfull=1#post2053649136) - end of Day One, post #126, 5/8

Update 3 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149377-I-m-hosting-a-game%21&p=2053649255&viewfull=1#post2053649255) - Night One, post #128, 6/8

Update 4 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149377-I-m-hosting-a-game%21&p=2053649471&viewfull=1#post2053649471) - Day Two, post #159, 8/8

Update 5 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149377-I-m-hosting-a-game%21&p=2053649588&viewfull=1#post2053649588) - Night Two, post #160, 9/8

Update 6 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149377-I-m-hosting-a-game%21&p=2053649824&viewfull=1#post2053649824) - Day Three, post #226, 11/8

Update 7 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149377-I-m-hosting-a-game%21&p=2053649906&viewfull=1#post2053649906) - Night Three, post #229, 12/8

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sure, why not. It'll be good to get back in the swing of things. :yes:

[Visor]

In to rand mafia.

Think I've randed mafia your last two games here EB.

[BSmith]

Eh, why not?

[Ishmael]

I'll be in, please.

[seireikhaan]

:charge:

[johnhughthom]

Me six.

[Kagemusha]

In.! Seven.

[Csargo]

Sign me up!

[Winston Hughes]

Yup.

[Montmorency]

No mini.

[El Barto]

Quorum reached! Good, I'll start the game in 23-24 hours with our current 10 players and anyone who joins before then.

[landlubber]

I'll play.

[El Barto]

In the nick of time! Roughly one hour remaining until I close signups.

[El Barto]

BEGINNING OF THE GAME

Setup:
-48 hour days, 24 hour nights
-Tied votes broken by tiebreaker round.
-Private communication allowed
-Don't quote anything from me, instaWoG.
-Vote or you'll be WoG'd.
-no Role PM: vanilla townie

Player list
1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash
3. BSmith
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. johnhughthom
7. Kagemusha
8. Csargo
9. Winston Hughes
10. Montmorency
11. landlubber

Time remaining:

[landlubber]

Vote: Csargo.
I don't trust people whose names begin with silent letters.

[Double A]

oh come the crap on I'm only 4 hours late

[Winston Hughes]

vote: johnhughthom

:hide:

[Double A]

vote: jht

Also can I be a sub?

[Visor]

HARDCLAIM: I am a survivor. This will be the easiest victory I've ever had unless mafia/killing role decide for some reason I'm lying.

I am not a power role, I am aligned with no-one win with mafia or town.

Continue playing.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Vote: Visor

[Visor]

Seems sort of anti fun to claim - but I'm probably an early nightkill so I figure I'd be upfront and claim.

[Visor]

Vote: Visor

:stare:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Joking response: You can't dangle that kind of a fruit in my face and not expect me to take it.

Serious response: I've been out of the game for a while but that role makes no sense to me. Either you're a third party/neutral or a regular villain looking to take a risk. I doubt power-town would have made that kind of claim.

[Visor]

Joking response: You can't dangle that kind of a fruit in my face and not expect me to take it.

Serious response: I've been out of the game for a while but that role makes no sense to me. Either you're a third party/neutral or a regular villain looking to take a risk. I doubt power-town would have made that kind of claim.
Its just a survivor role. I have to live to endgame.

I have balls but not that much to claim it first post as scum/serial killer. I take risks, but calculated ones.

I'm also not power town. I'm simply a survivor. Basically a vanilla townie I guess.

[Visor]

I don't think I've ever claimed first post before so thats a new thing.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I don't think I've ever claimed first post before so thats a new thing.

Ooh, thanks for the excuse to link to one of my favorite philosophical concepts that relates to Mafia!

Problem of induction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction)

Scumcatch and Hume on D1, it's like I never stopped playing. :smoking:

[Visor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/you_make_no_sense (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOL)

[Visor]

For interests sake I have GH as a townie.

[El Barto]

vote: jht

Also can I be a sub?
Of course! From which deli?

[landlubber]

It doesn't seem logical to me that you'd be so willing to claim early. It's a big risk to draw this much attention to yourself, and the payoff is... what, exactly? Hoping to earn our trust so that we won't lynch you? Why didn't you just wait until you were in some kind of danger before claiming?

[Visor]

It doesn't seem logical to me that you'd be so willing to claim early. It's a big risk to draw this much attention to yourself, and the payoff is... what, exactly? Hoping to earn our trust so that we won't lynch you? Why didn't you just wait until you were in some kind of danger before claiming?

Because I am a pretty good townie and I never make it to endgame.

Basically what this does is narrow the pool for other players, and keeps me out of harms way. Its playing to my win condition.

[Visor]

I've literally never claimed this early ever

so its already likely that I am telling the truth, plus it makes no sense from any perspective for me to claim this role.

I can link you to every scum and third party etc game I've ever played.

[Visor]

*any other perspective to claim this role

I should say.

[landlubber]

I've literally never claimed this early ever
Pretty much every mafia player in history could say that, given that you've claimed well before night 1. I wasn't going to vote for you because this strategy is so dubious as mafia, but your defense of calling this much attention to yourself (which, surely, you should have expected) is so flinchy and unprepared that I'm having second thoughts. Novelty is not a defense, and saying you're a good townie isn't either, given that you could easily win with the mafia. Why shouldn't I vote for you? The town doesn't need you to win.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I wonder if Double A's going to continue to thank all non-El Barto posts in this thread.

[seireikhaan]

Yes, that's probably correct. It's pretty darn suspicious that someone would reveal a role like that on day one. A jester? ....Nah, that would be against The Rules, you're silly. I kinda think we should leave him for the mafia to dead him. But... well, I suppose that's possible. Nah, I'm leaving him unless you can come up with a better argument than that.

Then, it's a question of whether GH is mafia trying to capitalize on him. Wait, yeah, you're right. GH wouldn't jump out that hard on day one over something silly like that if he was mafia, he'd play it a bit more low key.

Of course, then it gets pretty random who we vote for. Any suggestions?

Wait, what do I call him? Oh right....

Vote: Ishmael

Not a bad suggestion, yeah. That'll work. Maybe.

[Ishmael]

I'm inclined to believe Visorslash for now, given that claiming as he's done would seem to entail more risk than reward were he scum. Of course, the same holds true if he's town, but one tends to be more willing to take risk in town games, since you tend to get more of them and thus have less to lose.

So, pseudo-random vote then:


Vote: Csargo.
I don't trust people whose names begin with silent letters.

I don't trust landlubbers. I bet you've never even hunted a great white whale.

vote: landlubber

(OMGUSing 'khaan was tempting, I'll admit, but his 'Call me Ishmael' won me over).

[Ishmael]

Ooh, thanks for the excuse to link to one of my favorite philosophical concepts that relates to Mafia!

Problem of induction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction)

Scumcatch and Hume on D1, it's like I never stopped playing. :smoking:

Also, GH, thanks for the half hour detour through Wikipedia :beam:.

[Double A]

Of course! From which deli?

Hm, know any good Jewish ones?


I wonder if Double A's going to continue to thank all non-El Barto posts in this thread.

I'm not thanking john either.

[Montmorency]

Vote: Visorslash

Lynch him now or we'll just end up lynching him tomorrow.

[Winston Hughes]

unvote; vote: Visorslash

Booo! Those cornball antics may play in the sticks, but this is Capital City! :rtwno:

[Ishmael]

unvote; vote: Winston Hughes

Seems a much better option than landlubber, actually.

[Winston Hughes]

How's that, then?

[Ishmael]

The combination of a vote without any real reason evident, on a person who has made a controversial claim leaves open the possibility that you were looking to slip onto the bandwagon without having to attract too much notice. At the very least it would be nice if you could elaborate if you're voting for Visor because you think his claim is scummy (e.g. GH, landlubber), because you think he'll be an ongoing distraction otherwise (e.g. Montmorency), or for a third reason.

Plus, having looked over landlubber's posts he seems sincere. I would have moved my vote off him sometime today anyway.

EDIT: And of course, the host removed the suggestion to vote from you between the sign-ups player list and the game start player list. Clearly that's a subtle hint that he doesn't want his mafia killed off too soon. johnhughthom, you're next.

[Visor]

Vote: Visorslash

Lynch him now or we'll just end up lynching him tomorrow.

Yeah this makes no sense. Either you actually believe I'm mafia with the ~stupidest play of all the time, or you're just seeking to waste d1. Not all of you can actually be scum, and I'm sure there is a townie amongst you, and any of you that are town would be wise to put some effort to actually looking at other players rather than going for the easy low hanging fruit each round.


unvote; vote: Visorslash

Booo! Those cornball antics may play in the sticks, but this is Capital City! :rtwno:

You're smarter than this Winston. I suppose me saying this gives you an easy opportunity to keep your vote on me, but we'll see.


Pretty much every mafia player in history could say that, given that you've claimed well before night 1. I wasn't going to vote for you because this strategy is so dubious as mafia, but your defense of calling this much attention to yourself (which, surely, you should have expected) is so flinchy and unprepared that I'm having second thoughts. Novelty is not a defense, and saying you're a good townie isn't either, given that you could easily win with the mafia. Why shouldn't I vote for you? The town doesn't need you to win.

Well besides the fact that voting me is pretty much against your win condition as I am not mafia and by voting me you have no intention of actually solving the game or finding wolves. If I get lynched you guys go into basically day 1 round 2 because you don't have a town flip to check motivations from and scum can easily hide under a lynch all non town persona because that plays into their wincon of not getting lynched and reducing the pool of players even though I could technically win with them.

In any event I will not be siding with the mafia as I don't feel that it is very fun and I feel I should have just been a VT rather than a survivor, though I guess me claiming survivor probably puts a huge and easy arrow on my head for a lynch.

[Winston Hughes]

The combination of a vote without any real reason evident, on a person who has made a controversial claim leaves open the possibility that you were looking to slip onto the bandwagon without having to attract too much notice. At the very least it would be nice if you could elaborate if you're voting for Visor because you think his claim is scummy (e.g. GH, landlubber), because you think he'll be an ongoing distraction otherwise (e.g. Montmorency), or for a third reason.

Okay, that's a decent enough explanation. What you suspect is pretty much the mirror opposite of how I actually play the game, but you're not to know that.

The reason for my vote is that I think Visor's claim is very boring, but only if it's true. At this stage, that's all I'm going to say on the matter. There's a long time left until the end of day.

[Visor]

I'm basically a bulletproof townie for all intents and purposes. No mafia is going to PM me and say hey me and x are the mafia don't vote us k thanks. And I guess from the town perspective its sorta suspiscious as if the claim is successful I will be making it to endgame unopposed basically.

If there is some sort of cop I guess I would request a scan of me simply to prove I am who I say I am though I that is a bad scan and actually pretty selfish but it secures my victory if they out the scan at some point.

I would ask that you give me at least a days grace and that you read me based off my words and actions and less of my claim. You can read the previous two games el barto hosted here where I was mafia and both and note a distinct difference in playstyle. If you have any idea of how I play you probably already noticed a difference in tone.

[Visor]

Okay, that's a decent enough explanation. What you suspect is pretty much the mirror opposite of how I actually play the game, but you're not to know that.

The reason for my vote is that I think Visor's claim is very boring, but only if it's true. At this stage, that's all I'm going to say on the matter. There's a long time left until the end of day.
I agree completely. I wish I was a vanilla townie. Being a survivor is fun in the sense that I have to manage town to not fear/paranoia lynch me and mafia not to kill me but it sorta takes the fun out that I don't have to solve the game.

But I signed up to play and I like solving games so I will be attempting to find out who the mafia is.

[Visor]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?148896-Vanilla-Mafia-Game-signups%21
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?147336-El-Barto-s-Clueless-Mafia-Game-1/page7

Last two games on here that I randed mafia.

A much different approach.

[Winston Hughes]

Either you actually believe I'm mafia with the ~stupidest play of all the time, or you're just seeking to waste d1.

Firstly, I think you'd fancy yourself to get away with the '~stupidest play of all the time' defence here.

Secondly, if it would be so stupid a claim for scum, wouldn't it be even more stupid for a survivor?

Thirdly, as above, I think the claim is just boring if true, and I don't see you taking the boring option.


You're smarter than this Winston.

Apparently not. :shame:


I suppose me saying this gives you an easy opportunity to keep your vote on me, but we'll see.

Now this I find interesting. Do you really think I'd vote for you as an easy option, whatever my alignment was?

[Visor]

Firstly, I think you'd fancy yourself to get away with the '~stupidest play of all the time' defence here.

Secondly, if it would be so stupid a claim for scum, wouldn't it be even more stupid for a survivor?

Thirdly, as above, I think the claim is just boring if true, and I don't see you taking the boring option.



Apparently not. :shame:



Now this I find interesting. Do you really think I'd vote for you as an easy option, whatever my alignment was?

I didn't really think about the claim but I honestly figure myself for an early nightkill target so I figured I would claim immediately as it was my best chance.

And yes whilst it is boring and I don't like boring I also like to play to my win condition and I figure being upfront about this gives me the best chance of success.

And potentially I think you might (depends if you keep the vote), because getting rid of me gets rid of a potential threat, narrows the player pool and takes any sort of heat of you and a potential partner if mafia.

There are arguments both ways but I think lynching me today is inherently pro mafia.

[Visor]

How likely do you think it is I am telling the truth Winston?

[seireikhaan]

Hey, that's actually a pretty good point. If we leave him around, the mafia would leave him alone until the last day, and then we're forced to just chit chat about him all of that round. He might distract from who the real mafia target would be.

Wait, that's also true. If he *is* mafia, and there's a backup plan, this wouldn't actually be a half-bad ploy. Rile up discussion on himself and get his partner to sail through scot-free. What do we call that? It was some chess term... yeah, that's the word! I did one of those once, if I recall. Anyways, I still kinda feel like this is generally too stupid to be a legitimate mafia ploy.

Wait, but if he's mafia and we accepted that logic, he skates free to the last lynch almost certainly. Hey, this aint a bad ploy at all... hrm.... Yeah, it is a tough one. Still, I think for now I'll keep my vote where it is for the time being, how 'bout you?

[Winston Hughes]

How likely do you think it is I am telling the truth Winston?

<50%

How likely do you think it is that I'm scum?

[BSmith]

Dammit Visor. You are making me actually think on D1. Why can’t this just be a lazy random vote day?! :crazy:

I am inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt for now, though I agree completely with Winston that you would be more than capable of pulling off the WIFOM ploy precisely because it would not be the boring approach.

[Visor]

<50%

How likely do you think it is that I'm scum?
:(

Its hard for me to come to a conclusion on that yet. I sorta need everyone else to weigh in so I can judge the responses. I guess I sorta lean town for now based on you keeping your position.

Dammit Visor. You are making me actually think on D1. Why can’t this just be a lazy random vote day?! :crazy:

I am inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt for now, though I agree completely with Winston that you would be more than capable of pulling off the WIFOM ploy precisely because it would not be the boring approach.

My meta is working against me! :cry:


Wait, that's also true. If he *is* mafia, and there's a backup plan, this wouldn't actually be a half-bad ploy. Rile up discussion on himself and get his partner to sail through scot-free. What do we call that? It was some chess term... yeah, that's the word! I did one of those once, if I recall. Anyways, I still kinda feel like this is generally too stupid to be a legitimate mafia ploy.

Wait, but if he's mafia and we accepted that logic, he skates free to the last lynch almost certainly. Hey, this aint a bad ploy at all... hrm.... Yeah, it is a tough one. Still, I think for now I'll keep my vote where it is for the time being, how 'bout you?

I'll entertain this hypothesis: If I was mafia this is a terrible self sacrifice because I don't gain any equity for my partner in this scenario. I'm all for self sacrificial plays and have done them in the past but they're all designed to pull out a win quickly generally.

And if I'm mafia and you take me at my word I will indeed probably skate by to end of game.

Its a risk I guess. That is why I am asking you to read me based off my posts at this stage rather than my claim because that should give you a better indication of my alignment.

[Visor]

A question before I go Winston, If you do think I am lying, do you think I am lying from a town perspective or a mafia perspective?

[BSmith]

Given the general negative knee-jerk reaction to claims like this (“ZOMG He is not town! LYNCH HIM!!!!”) regardless of what the actual claim is, a ploy like this would have extremely long odds. So extreme that it would be highly unlikely for an actual scummer to make that bet.

What the claim has done though is take all the air out of any other case that might be made. Given that D1 is usually random votes it might be too much to expect a decent discussion on alternatives, but I certainly hope we can start.

Of course as I write this I am struggling to not just go random myself… :confused:

[Winston Hughes]

A question before I go Winston, If you do think I am lying, do you think I am lying from a town perspective or a mafia perspective?

The fact I'm voting for you would seem to answer that.

In any case, the '~stupidest play' defence isn't working for me.

[Winston Hughes]

Serious response: I've been out of the game for a while but that role makes no sense to me.

It should be noted that this is an El Barto game, so assumptions about whether a claim makes sense carry rather less weight than they might under a different host (not that this is a criticism - it's part of Takhisis' charm). ~;)

How are you feeling about the other responses to Visor's claim, btw?

[Montmorency]

HARDCLAIM: I am a survivor. This will be the easiest victory I've ever had unless mafia/killing role decide for some reason I'm lying.


Seems sort of anti fun to claim - but I'm probably an early nightkill so I figure I'd be upfront and claim.

Maybe we're all just rusty, but this wording screams to me that Visor needs to be lynched.

[Winston Hughes]

What the claim has done though is take all the air out of any other case that might be made.

You think? I'd wager it provoked much more discussion than we'd have seen otherwise. Indeed, I've been wondering if Visor might move to a second-phase defence of "I'm just vanilla town trying to get people talking". His last question to me suggests that might be the case.


Of course as I write this I am struggling to not just go random myself… :confused:

There's no excuse for random voting now. We can vote people for what they've said (or for what they haven't said) with regards to the Visor wagon.

[Winston Hughes]

Maybe we're all just rusty

It might help you to know that Visor has been playing a lot of games in various different parts of the mafiaverse. From the rest of the roster, BSmith and myself have both been playing fairly regularly. I can't speak for anyone else.

[BSmith]

You think? I'd wager it provoked much more discussion than we'd have seen otherwise. Indeed, I've been wondering if Visor might move to a second-phase defence of "I'm just vanilla town trying to get people talking". His last question to me suggests that might be the case.

Absolutely. There is much more discussion than there otherwise would have been, which on balance is a positive thing. If Visor does backtrack into that defense, then I would be much more willing to vote for him.


There's no excuse for random voting now. We can vote people for what they've said (or for what they haven't said) with regards to the Visor wagon.

Indeed, which is why I haven’t voted for anyone yet. I am tempted to vote for someone that took the knee-jerk “let’s vote Visor because ‘reasons’” path, but I have yet to have any one poster stick out as manipulating that very obvious response. No one has completely ignored Visor either, which would be another thing to pick on.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Unvote: Visor
Vote: BSmith

I'd actually like to thank Visor for ensuring that D1 wasn't completely useless for once. Anyway, BSmith's being way too wishy-washy here.

[seireikhaan]

Yes, yes... you and GH are correct, wishy-washy is a good words for that. "Struggling to not random". It's day 1, random it like a boss.

And hush, you, switching a vote is not wishy-washy. :stare:

Unvote: Ishmael
Vote: Bsmith

[Kagemusha]

Vote:Monty Too easy vote and implemented so gently that no one might notice. :rolleyes:

[landlubber]

Okay, I've slept on it, and I'm still inclined to vote Visor. His insistence that the mafia don't need or want to kill him is odd. He denies wanting to work with the mafia, but that's exactly what this sounds like.

Furthermore, I'm still stuck on his "good townie" defense. If we take him at face value, he genuinely believes that the mafia are going to completely leave him alone. What incentive does he have in this case to work with the town at all, to make cases against the mafia? If he starts scumcatching, the mafia would want him dead, which runs counter to his strategy. Besides, he seems much more keen on forging an alliance with the mafia (albeit possibly unspoken) than he's willing to say directly.

At worst, we're losing an opportunist who would gladly sell out the town the minute things turned toward the mafia. He's got no real motivation to help us now. I'm all but convinced.

vote:Visorslash

[landlubber]

Or invite, vote:Visorslash, rather.

[landlubber]

god my spelling is awful today
Unvote, vote:Visorslash

[GeneralHankerchief]

Autocorrect, maybe? LIKE FROM A PHONE? :stare:

[Winston Hughes]

If Visor and GH are scumbuddies, that was a very bold opening to the game. Typically, though, it's come from a pair who I can quite imagine being so bold.

ScumVisor making that play would want the wagon started as early as possible, knowing it would generate reasons to vote for other people. Left to linger, you run the risk that votes start piling up too late to be diverted onto a patsy.

What, then, to make of GH's switch to BSmith? He's not a great lynch, imo. It's true that he's been a bit wishy-washy, but I think he'd try to avoid giving that impression if scum (and, afaik, there's not enough of us here who know him well enough for it to work as playing against his meta). But is that switch a move GH would make if he and Visor really were buddies? After the boldness of the opening, it would seem a bit limp by comparison. Still plausible, though.

In other news, I like landlubber's case on Visor. Even if he's wrong about the latter's motives, it suggests a believably townie thought process. Meanwhile, Kage's vote on Monty isn't much less easy and gentle than the vote it addresses. I'd like to see more substance from both of these guys before day's end, if possible.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I was never intending to keep my vote on Visor. I followed up my initial vote with some purposely ridiculous logic to see if anyone would be lazy and latch onto it. That failed and discussion went in other-ish directions, so I picked who looked the most for-real scummy.

[johnhughthom]

Only just noticed this has started. So, let's get this out of the way, otherwise the mafia Gods may strike me down, Vote: Winston Hughes.

Now I'm going to reread the thread. What are you playing at Visor, has this topsy turvy Ashes series made you a bit crazy?

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: Winston Hughes.

*satisfied sigh*

I know you're only going through the motions these days, but it still loops my noose to hear you say that.

[Winston Hughes]

Oh yeah, and I'm sorry for getting you D1 lynched last time out. I mean, you did turn out to be scum and all, but it was a genuine accident. :embarassed:

[johnhughthom]

:laugh4:

I think that was more down to a careless scum team not paying attention. I'd much rather continue a time honoured tradition than get a win anyway.

So. This whole Visorslash thing. I think when I see something like that I want to vote for them "just in case", I don't want to be one of the townies made to look like a total fool. Usually that's enough reason for me to vote someone, usually. I don't care about winning, but looking a fool? Sure, I care about that,

But... I think I'll give Mr Slash the benefit of the doubt and focus on the reaction to his silliness.

Unvote.

[BSmith]

Yes, yes... you and GH are correct, wishy-washy is a good words for that. "Struggling to not random". It's day 1, random it like a boss.

And hush, you, switching a vote is not wishy-washy. :stare:

Unvote: Ishmael
Vote: Bsmith


Random on D1 is usually the way to go because there is an absence of other information to make an informed decision. That is not the case here, as we have plenty of other information given Visor’s claim and the reactions to it.

The way you gloss over this fact along with your quick, easy copy-cat vote for me strikes me as an attempt to seem like you are contributing, but in reality are just trying to make it look like you are.

vote: seireikhaan

[Winston Hughes]

So. This whole Visorslash thing. I think when I see something like that I want to vote for them "just in case", I don't want to be one of the townies made to look like a total fool. Usually that's enough reason for me to vote someone, usually. I don't care about winning, but looking a fool? Sure, I care about that,

Yeah, I've been asking myself how much that's affecting my judgement. In the end, though, it's all WIFOM where Visor is concerned. What I'm left with is this: a neutral claim on day one of a small game, with nobody else jumping out as a strong option just yet.

[Winston Hughes]

I was never intending to keep my vote on Visor. I followed up my initial vote with some purposely ridiculous logic to see if anyone would be lazy and latch onto it. That failed and discussion went in other-ish directions, so I picked who looked the most for-real scummy.

The more I read this, the less I like it.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Anything specifically about it?

[Winston Hughes]

I guess I'm just not seeing the bait in those posts, making your characterisation seem rather forced and, thus, defensive.

[Csargo]

Vote:Abstain

Why? Now I just have to read through all of these posts. Where are all the nonsensical joke posts? :no: I'll be back when I read through all of this.

[El Barto]

Where are all the nonsensical joke posts?
Every post by or addressing Double A, who, incidentally, is not a player but a substitute.

[Csargo]

Every post by or addressing Double A, who, incidentally, is not a player but a substitute.

Yeah, that's true.

[Csargo]

How many mafia/wolves are we assuming here? 1/2? It's been a while since I've played a game like this. Depending on the answer I might vote Visor.

[Visor]

How many mafia/wolves are we assuming here? 1/2? It's been a while since I've played a game like this. Depending on the answer I might vote Visor.
12 people in the game if I recall correctly so 2 mafia.

For the sake of being fully transparent GH did PM after out initial convo saying he had no intention of keeping his vote on me, so I tend to believe him there hence the lean.

[Visor]

And, no I have no intention of rescinding my claim.

I am exactly what I say I am.

[landlubber]

How many mafia/wolves are we assuming here? 1/2? It's been a while since I've played a game like this. Depending on the answer I might vote Visor.

Visor keeps referring to a pair of mafia, but it's not all that unheard of to just have one mafioso in a game this small. Three would almost certainly be excessive.

[Visor]

Three is too much without power roles.

Two is a perfect amount. I point you to El Bartos last games where there were two mafia with similar player numbers.

[Csargo]

Hmm if that's the case then unvote:, Vote:Visorslash I don't see how you aren't a liability for the town. Especially considering how you revealed your role.

[Visor]

I mean, I guess I should have expected this. The Org is the least friendly board for claims that aren't town.

I am never a wolf and I literally cannot be a PFK with this many players.

In what way does voting me accomplish anything but a wasted day? You are no closer to any alignments of importance, you will basically begin d2 as d1 because you have no town/mafia lynch d1 to discuss.

[landlubber]

Well, lynching you is the only way we can contain you if you are a threat to the town, i. e. if you're lying. Sure, you could be scanned by a cop or roleblocked or tracked or whatever, but so what? If you are who you say you are, you still aren't inherently pro-town, and, like I said before, playing as a helpful townie is a guaranteed path to a nightkill. You don't seem in a position to help the town much.

You've sparked quite the discussion, so this day certainly wasn't wasted. In fact, this is probably one of the most productive first days I've seen. I'll humor you, though. Who's the better option? How are you reading everyone who's going after you?

[Double A]

Every post by or addressing Double A, who, incidentally, is not a player but a substitute.

Can I actually post somewhat frequently if I don't contribute anything to the game like normal?

[Csargo]

I mean, I guess I should have expected this. The Org is the least friendly board for claims that aren't town.

I am never a wolf and I literally cannot be a PFK with this many players.

In what way does voting me accomplish anything but a wasted day? You are no closer to any alignments of importance, you will basically begin d2 as d1 because you have no town/mafia lynch d1 to discuss.

I'll explain my vote better now that I have the time to do so.

I assume you are the role you say you are. I believe everything you posted in your initial reveal. The problem to me is revealing, almost instantaneously, your role with no prompt or reason. Also, the fact that you have no alignment to either side. You've left yourself open to being easily manipulated by the baddies. I think your reveal was an advertisement to the mafia to contact you, because that gives you the best chance to fulfill your win condition. You have a fighting chance to reason with townies not to lynch you. The same can't be said for being killed in the night randomly. It's a risky play, but it would be well worth if it worked.

That's my reasoning and whether or not it's correct I don't honestly know. Either way my vote stands as is.

[El Barto]

Player list, just in case Double A has confused you:
1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash
3. BSmith
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. vote:Winston Hughes
7. Kagemusha
8. Csargo
9. vote:johnhughthom
10. Montmorency
11. landlubber

Can I actually post somewhat frequently if I don't contribute anything to the game like normal?
No, and if you keep up with your silly antics I'll remove you from the substitutes list. :bow:

[Double A]

Psh, fine. I guess I'm blowing this popsicle stand. Hell, I don't even like popsicles. They're usually mediocre and wood adds absolutely nothing but a gross feeling.

[Visor]

Well, lynching you is the only way we can contain you if you are a threat to the town, i. e. if you're lying. Sure, you could be scanned by a cop or roleblocked or tracked or whatever, but so what? If you are who you say you are, you still aren't inherently pro-town, and, like I said before, playing as a helpful townie is a guaranteed path to a nightkill. You don't seem in a position to help the town much.

You've sparked quite the discussion, so this day certainly wasn't wasted. In fact, this is probably one of the most productive first days I've seen. I'll humor you, though. Who's the better option? How are you reading everyone who's going after you?

Well no, thats not true and pretty dishonest. Lets say there are no other power roles in this game and my role was put in this game because there was an even number of players (my hypothesis). None of the reasons for voting so far stand on any reasoning that could be taken as scumhunting or what have you. I've claimed a role which whilst maybe not verifiable is a role that is not only NEVER claimed by mafia (mafia would claim something that would let them live and also never claim with their first post of the day). You can cling to the worst case scenario where I am lying about claiming a survivor role on one the most hostile to third party claims sites that play mafia an HOUR after the day began.

Now lets look at that in detail because I think that is pretty important. If you believe I am a survivor this is a GOOD thing if you are town. Because you know that the playerbase is narrowed and that the wolves can be found easier. (example, at f5 you would have a 2/3 chance of randomly voting a wolf rather than a 1/2). So my continued survival is useful for that point.

The other argument is that I claimed an hour into the game. Now, I don't live in the timezone that most do besides Ishmael here so unless you are suggesting I am mafia with the people who posted before I did which is you or Winston. Now, both you and winston are against me so that doesn't seem likely.

To quash this silly belief especially from winston: Unless you think I claim as a neutral survivor without talking to my teammate/s an hour into the game, the evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY likely that I am telling the truth about being a survivor.

I am in an excellent position to help town. My unique position means my opinion can be trusted moreso than most with respect to reads. I have every reason to be open and transparent and solving and I believe I have done.

I'll explain my vote better now that I have the time to do so.

I assume you are the role you say you are. I believe everything you posted in your initial reveal. The problem to me is revealing, almost instantaneously, your role with no prompt or reason. Also, the fact that you have no alignment to either side. You've left yourself open to being easily manipulated by the baddies. I think your reveal was an advertisement to the mafia to contact you, because that gives you the best chance to fulfill your win condition. You have a fighting chance to reason with townies not to lynch you. The same can't be said for being killed in the night randomly. It's a risky play, but it would be well worth if it worked.

That's my reasoning and whether or not it's correct I don't honestly know. Either way my vote stands as is.

So you believe I am NOT a mafia. Survivor typically win with anyone as long as they are alive at the end - I included that for completeness sake. And no, I don't think I can be easily manipulated by the baddies, not sure what that argument is about. And why on earth would the mafia contact me? If they think I'm telling the truth the best thing to do is leave me alone and for the game sake more than anything. Mafia will never contact me here saying hey I'm mafia. That is a terrible play.

The best chance for me to win was to reveal immediately because with this lineup I get nightkilled early. It is as simple as that.

The rationale behind both your votes doesn't make too much sense.

[Visor]

Been a while since I wrote that much in a post.

Let's go through the scenarios:

One: I am mafia. Rare but for completeness sake. I decided to claim an hour into the game presumably without talking to my partner unless they are Winston/Landlubber. I also decided to claim a role that will often get lynched due to the Org hating all third parties. I also gain my partner ~zero equity when I flip mafia because the suspicion on me comes from a position of perfect information - so winston or landlubber should be defending me not suspecting me because otherwise the flip reeks of PIS. I don't help my partner get through the game at all.

Two: I am town. Less rare but still. I decided to claim a role that typically gets lynched very early on in the game, presumably to get some discussion going day one. This is a reasonable move but would have been rescinded by now if I was town.

Third: I am exactly who I say I am. I claimed an hour into the game as soon as I read my role PM. I have been transparent and open to discussion from all players and have acknowledged all concerns.

We can see that option three is obviously the most likely.

Now we can look at what this means.

For the town - a narrowing of suspects, plus some information with how people have reacted to my claim.

For mafia - narrowing down of power roles if any. Has one less mislynch available technically.

So you can see my survival is actually beneficial to the town. And I already intend on attempting to solve this game - like I said earlier, that is the fun part for me.

[Visor]

Even if all that EVIDENCE doesn't convince you, I am asking you to ignore my claim then and focus on my tone/words/etc.

Do I sound like I am coming from a position of perfect information? Do I sound guilty?

I am doing my utmost firstly to get these terrible votes off me - next will come the examination of the players as they stand so far. But that will happen tonight, I'm taking a break for now.

[Winston Hughes]

For the sake of being fully transparent GH did PM after out initial convo saying he had no intention of keeping his vote on me, so I tend to believe him there hence the lean.

In that case:

unvote; vote: GH

His weak accusation wasn't setting a trap for scum; it was opening an approach to get the neutral guy onside.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I mean, I can't exactly announce that I'm setting a trap as I'm doing it, as that would defeat the entire purpose of said trap. Otherwise I'd've made it more clear.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Actually, I have a better idea.

Unvote: BSmith
Vote: Kage

Everyone else has chimed in so far. This isn't going to be a Mafia X redux, at least not when I have any say in things.

[Kagemusha]

Very strange GH are you bit rusty? ;) I have indeed chimed in and voted Monty because of his subtle ways, which he did not want to comment in any way. I have no such problems old friend. I am watching at this point and you can be sure that i will contribute more as i have something to base a case.

[Csargo]

So you believe I am NOT a mafia. Survivor typically win with anyone as long as they are alive at the end - I included that for completeness sake. And no, I don't think I can be easily manipulated by the baddies, not sure what that argument is about. And why on earth would the mafia contact me? If they think I'm telling the truth the best thing to do is leave me alone and for the game sake more than anything. Mafia will never contact me here saying hey I'm mafia. That is a terrible play.

The best chance for me to win was to reveal immediately because with this lineup I get nightkilled early. It is as simple as that.

The rationale behind both your votes doesn't make too much sense.

That's what I said. One person contacts you and says vote this way or you'll die tonight. It's as simple as that really. You don't do it and you get killed, or you reveal who sent it and you get killed. You'd obviously choose survival over revealing considering your role. Why wouldn't they? The risk is negligible considering your role. It'd just give them an extra vote in the game. How is it a terrible play?

Why would you think that?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Very strange GH are you bit rusty? ;) I have indeed chimed in and voted Monty because of his subtle ways, which he did not want to comment in any way. I have no such problems old friend. I am watching at this point and you can be sure that i will contribute more as i have something to base a case.

Wait, seriously? I guess I must be, I completely missed this. :laugh4:

Unvote: Kage
Vote: BSmith

[johnhughthom]

That's what I said. One person contacts you and says vote this way or you'll die tonight. It's as simple as that really. You don't do it and you get killed, or you reveal who sent it and you get killed. You'd obviously choose survival over revealing considering your role. Why wouldn't they? The risk is negligible considering your role. It'd just give them an extra vote in the game. How is it a terrible play?

Why would you think that?


If I was a 3rd party role such as Visor is claiming, and scum contacted me in the manner you described, I would tell the town. I'm not in a team, stuff the win, threaten me, I'll take you with me. I think a lot of other players would do the same. Unless you're Askthepizzaguy, most players sympathise more with the town than scum in such a position.

Probably.

[landlubber]

First of all, there isn't an even number of players in the game, there are eleven. Second, you keep saying that the town can trust you and that you'll be helpful, but, as I've said before, the mafia would not want such a person alive. And the "mafia would never do this" defense really isn't working for me, because I can't imagine anyone playing like this under any circumstances. Your insistence on clearing yourself to the town while avoiding nightkills by the mafia just isn't true. Either you lay low and the mafia see no reason to spend a night killing you, or you play well enough as a pseudo-townie that you put a target on your back for the mafia.

My vote stands, as Visor hasn't convinced me and, while some others seem a little strange to me (GH and Monty stand out), no one even begins to reach Visor's level.

[Csargo]

If I was a 3rd party role such as Visor is claiming, and scum contacted me in the manner you described, I would tell the town. I'm not in a team, stuff the win, threaten me, I'll take you with me. I think a lot of other players would do the same. Unless you're Askthepizzaguy, most players sympathise more with the town than scum in such a position.

Probably.

Maybe you are right and I'm not saying Visor wouldn't do the same. His role makes him dangerous if such a situation arises later on down the line. It could shift the balance of a potential game winning/losing vote as numbers dwindle. I don't really want to take that chance, so I'd rather deal with it now and avoid the possibility later on. It makes Visor potentially dangerous, and that's a good enough reason for me to lynch him now.

No one else seems to be responding to my posts, but I won't change my vote. :soapbox::end:

[johnhughthom]

the mafia would not want such a person alive.

Indeed, what self respecting scumbag would keep such a thread dominating distraction going?

[Winston Hughes]

unvote; vote: Visor

Has to be.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I really think that lynching Visor is a bad idea.

Consider the following assumptions/statements/whatevers:

1) Visor is, I believe, one of the most active remaining mafia players here across multiple fora, and is thus very much in tune with the metagame.

2) He has to be aware that the .Org is notorious for being twitchy with claimed third-party roles, thus, it wouldn't benefit him too much to claim something like that without reason.

3) Considering Point 1 above, he could be considered a likely kill target and this may - intentionally or not - be a way to remove that by deliberately attracting more suspicion towards himself (this is what I've been doing after all)

4) If he has the option to align with scum, as some people have said, and this is his way of putting himself out there, wouldn't that be unbalanced for a game of this size?

Feel free to pick apart.

[Visor]

It's bit startling that I'm going to lose this game immediately, I think I've done pretty much everything I can to convince you of my alignment. Gone above and beyond the call of duty here.

[Visor]

" Either you lay low and the mafia see no reason to spend a night killing you"

I refuse to lay low.

I would be looking at those who only considered me, not peoples reactions to me tomorrow for a lynch. Those people could easily be trying to lessen their interactions.

I mean I'm the easiest mislynch of all time here and yet nobody seems to be considering what I am saying.

I would any of those who actually recognise voting me is not voting a mafia to vote elsewhere. Voting me gets you no closer to finding the mafia, and in fact is in direct opposite to your win condition.

You are throwing away a lynch because of the some of the stupidest reasoning. I have posted plenty of evidence why I am who I am, none of it has been refuted.

I just get ignored and voted because lol fuck third parties amirite

The Org meta in this way is so unhealthy. You guys need to actually think about the scenario. Where are the mafia in this game? No townie has a clue because the discussion is about me when it should not be. I made my claim which is absolutely moronic for a mafioso as you can see and it narrows the pool down for scum.

DO SOME WORK instead of taking the easy option. When/if you lose this game come back and quote this post, because here is where you lost a lynch you could've used.

[Visor]

I really think that lynching Visor is a bad idea.

Consider the following assumptions/statements/whatevers:

1) Visor is, I believe, one of the most active remaining mafia players here across multiple fora, and is thus very much in tune with the metagame.

2) He has to be aware that the .Org is notorious for being twitchy with claimed third-party roles, thus, it wouldn't benefit him too much to claim something like that without reason.

3) Considering Point 1 above, he could be considered a likely kill target and this may - intentionally or not - be a way to remove that by deliberately attracting more suspicion towards himself (this is what I've been doing after all)

4) If he has the option to align with scum, as some people have said, and this is his way of putting himself out there, wouldn't that be unbalanced for a game of this size?

Feel free to pick apart.

Well I'm not putting myself out there for scum - I always play to the win condition specified in my role PM. Unlike some people *cough SW town cough*.

Mostly everything said here is correct. Most of plays only make sense from the survivor pov. And I assume most of finally bloody beleive it by now which means you should be focusing on finding the mafia rather than this discussion which went on for far too long because I had to defend myself against stellar accusations like Montys.

[Visor]

That's what I said. One person contacts you and says vote this way or you'll die tonight. It's as simple as that really. You don't do it and you get killed, or you reveal who sent it and you get killed. You'd obviously choose survival over revealing considering your role. Why wouldn't they? The risk is negligible considering your role. It'd just give them an extra vote in the game. How is it a terrible play?

Why would you think that?

Why would they kill me? Its moronic from the mafia perspective to kill someone they can win with and I'm never going to be blackmailed or threatened in doing anything I don't want to.

I'd reveal them instantly.

[Visor]

First of all, there isn't an even number of players in the game, there are eleven. Second, you keep saying that the town can trust you and that you'll be helpful, but, as I've said before, the mafia would not want such a person alive. And the "mafia would never do this" defense really isn't working for me, because I can't imagine anyone playing like this under any circumstances. Your insistence on clearing yourself to the town while avoiding nightkills by the mafia just isn't true. Either you lay low and the mafia see no reason to spend a night killing you, or you play well enough as a pseudo-townie that you put a target on your back for the mafia.

My vote stands, as Visor hasn't convinced me and, while some others seem a little strange to me (GH and Monty stand out), no one even begins to reach Visor's level.

The mafia don't want me alive so you're voting me

good look there

if play well enough there might be a target on my back, I can accept that

but thats the way the cookie crumbles

[Visor]

Days over in what 3 hours or so?

I doubt I can convince enough of you remaining and I don't even know what the tally is

Vote: landlubber

I'd also like to point out that NONE of my voters even addressed the whole fuckign walls of text I put up. Its brilliant to be ignored when your game is on the line, but there ain't much I can do about plays like that

If I don't make it back to change my vote, I'd like you all to know once more how terrible your votes are and how poor your reasoning is, etc.

[GeneralHankerchief]

FWIW Visor's acting a lot like The Frenchman right now, a role in Pirate Ship II where he felt unjustly persecuted after aligning with town and agreeing to work with that game's Captain. I'd give him a pass.

[Csargo]

Why would they kill me? Its moronic from the mafia perspective to kill someone they can win with and I'm never going to be blackmailed or threatened in doing anything I don't want to.

I'd reveal them instantly.

It's a threat nothing more. You just said you always play to your win condition why wouldn't they use that against you. You reveal whoever contacted you and you die. It's pretty simple to me, even if it's stupid.

[Visor]

It's a threat nothing more. You just said you always play to your win condition why wouldn't they use that against you. You reveal whoever contacted you and you die. It's pretty simple to me, even if it's stupid.

Why would they threaten me in the first case?

They threaten me, I reveal them, its a 1-1 trade with someone who isn't town and doesn't conflict with their wc

makes zero sense

[Visor]

@GH

They killed Arjos!

[Visor]

My posting style has gotten more aggressive thanks to being around 2+2/MR a bit more.

It's mostly the frustration shining through at this point.

[seireikhaan]

Okay, I can't do the "talking to myself" schtick anymore. W/e

So here's the thing, Visor. You admitted the mafia have no interest in killing your role. That is correct. Therefore the likely result of your roleclaim is you make to a theoretical end game by virtue of announcing your role. Which means, if you *are* a ballsy mafioso, if your claim stuck, you'd basically not have to defend yourself past day 1. I don't think it's *likely* that you're a mafia making this claim, hence why I'll keep my vote on Bsmith. But, I have seen less likely things happen. Do I think this is the best lynch? No, not on probability. But I don't begrudge it because at the end of the day, it spares us from a potential last day phase where we toss a coin on whether you fake claimed, so I don't think this is even the worst result either.

Also, don't complain about the round being all about you when *you* made the round all about you by claiming a role on day 1.

[El Barto]

DAY ONE

Visorslash was lynched. He was a Survivor!


Csargo: landlubber
Visorslash: Montmorency; landlubber; Csargo; Winston Hughes
Winston Hughes: Ishmael;
BSmith: seireikhaan; GeneralHankerchief
Montmorency: Kagemusha
seireikhaan: BSmith
landlubber: Visorslash

Abstain: none
Not voting: none

Player list
1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash, Survivor, Lynched Day One
3. BSmith
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. johnhughthom
7. Kagemusha
8. Csargo
9. Winston Hughes
10. Montmorency
11. landlubber

It is now NIGHT ONE.
Time remaining:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I guess some things never change. :laugh4:

[El Barto]

NIGHT ONE

Kagemusha was killed. He was a townie!

Player list
1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash, Survivor, Lynched on Day One
3. BSmith
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. johnhughthom
7. Kagemusha, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night One
8. Csargo
9. Winston Hughes
10. Montmorency
11. landlubber

It is now DAY TWO.
Time remaining:

[Montmorency]

Vote: GH

[seireikhaan]

Oh boy.

https://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x246/greaterkhaan/1JmCA_zpsloyvtexa.png


I'm inclined to put my vote back on Bsmith. Still not a fan of his posturing, nor of the OMGUS vote upon receiving pressure.

Vote: Bsmith

[GeneralHankerchief]

Vote: GH

Why?

[Montmorency]

No reason.

Unvote; Vote: khaan

[landlubber]

I'm confused by Monty so far, I'm not quite sure what he's thinking. It seems like he's somewhat overeager to vote for people who have already been accused by someone else. Could be an attempt to lay low and avoid saying something potentially incriminating.

I'm also puzzled by Winston's switching from Visor to GH and then back to Visor. With or without Winston's vote, Visor would have been lynched, and it meant abandoning his vote on GH, which had some merit. Why?

[seireikhaan]

Why?


No reason. Unvote;
Hmm.... let's test this. FOR SCIENCE!



Vote: khaan
Why?

[Montmorency]

For one, khaan is definitely scum. This will become clearer over the course of the day.

Well landlubber, I was the first to seriously vote Visor, and khaan is in the top 5 for least-pressured players so far - as are you and I.

[Ishmael]

It looks like Montmorency is doing his usual shtick, so I can't really deduce much from him yet. landlubber has also continued in much the same vein as yesterday, and given that I thought he was leaning town then I see no reason to change my mind yet. I somewhat agree with Montmorency that 'khaan is worth keeping an eye on, since he (and GH, actually) is coming off as confident and relaxed in his posting, and that makes me nervous.

And of course, I then find myself agreeing with GH and 'khaan in finding BSmith to be suspicious for the combination of hedging his bets, seemingly trying to actively give off a vibe of 'townie analysis,' and the highly defensive OMGUS vote in response to pressure.


Dammit Visor. You are making me actually think on D1. Why can’t this just be a lazy random vote day?! :crazy:

I am inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt for now, though I agree completely with Winston that you would be more than capable of pulling off the WIFOM ploy precisely because it would not be the boring approach.

To give an example, this post in particular came off rather strongly as positioning himself against the Visorslash wagon whilst still giving himself room to lynch Visorslash later on should he survive D1. Also:


Absolutely. There is much more discussion than there otherwise would have been, which on balance is a positive thing. If Visor does backtrack into that defense, then I would be much more willing to vote for him.


Indeed, which is why I haven’t voted for anyone yet. I am tempted to vote for someone that took the knee-jerk “let’s vote Visor because ‘reasons’” path, but I have yet to have any one poster stick out as manipulating that very obvious response. No one has completely ignored Visor either, which would be another thing to pick on.

Again, this comes off as somebody very deliberately trying to keep their options open.

So, for want of anything better:

vote: BSmith

[BSmith]

1. I was keeping my options open because I didn't like any of the ones in front of me.
2. OMGUS is not the scumtell it used to be. I would certainly avoid it if I were actual scum simply because of the knee-jerk reaction it tends to provoke.
3. I really do like my vote: khaan and think I will do it again.
4. I am posting from my phone.



:p

[El Barto]

I'll have to be somewhere on Caturday IRL so I've moved the deadline forward by a couple hours.

Time remaining:

[Kagemusha]

Interesting move from mafia. Can i keep posting while dead, as i did not see anything about it in the rules?

[Visor]

No you need to keep me comfy.

Let us huddle for warmth.

[Csargo]

Vote:GH

Because reasons.

[Winston Hughes]

I'm also puzzled by Winston's switching from Visor to GH and then back to Visor. With or without Winston's vote, Visor would have been lynched, and it meant abandoning his vote on GH, which had some merit. Why?

I didn't see any chance of GH getting lynched and, by that point in the day, figured it was best just to make sure the Visor lynch was locked down. Even though it was clear by then that he really was telling the truth, lynching Visor was a far better outcome than lynching a townie, which was the most likely alternative.

For the time being, I'm going to go with vote: GH once again. As I said yesterday, his private dealings with Visor are deeply suspicious to me, and I still fail to see how his original accusation could possibly have trapped a scumbag, making the characterisation he gave of it seem quite implausible.

That said, I'm interested to hear Csargo's reasons for the same vote, which must presumably be different to mine (or else he would have said so, right?).

[johnhughthom]

I don't think there is much point looking to deeply at yesterday's voting, it was clear early on, pretty much from his roleclaim tbh, that Visor was going to be lynched. Scum had plenty of time to decide whether popping an easy vote on him to hide with the crowd, or putting a vote somewhere meaningless was the least conspicuous route.

[GeneralHankerchief]

"Private dealings"

Here's the extent of my communication with Visorslash from the first day phase:




I'm not keeping my vote on you long-term, just fishing for responses.

GH
Aye I'm sure. You're too good of a player to actually think I'm scum here lol.

Maybe in the past. Don't think that's still the case. But yeah, logically it just doesn't make sense. Probably.

Time to get trollier with my logic.

Honestly I thought we had put the issue of Visor's identity to bed when it was revealed yesterday, but apparently not.

[Csargo]

What was the point? I don't understand at all.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I wanted a D1 that was something besides 11 random votes for a change. Visor got the ball rolling, I wanted to keep it going.

[Csargo]

I mean why did you contact him? I can understand why you put the vote on him initially. I don't understand the PM.

[Winston Hughes]

But, GH, why tell him you weren't planning keeping your vote on him?

I'm struggling to think of a townie reason for doing so. By contrast, it's obvious why scum might want to cozy up to him.

Also, this 'fishing for responses' thing... People were always going to react to Visor's claim. It was the only thing anyone had to talk about. It's notable that the rest of us who pushed on Visor all provoked a response (indeed, I think every one of us caught a vote as a direct consequence), but your accusation got nothing at all until you retracted it. Looking back, it's not hard to see why. Far from demanding a reaction, your accusation was so hedged it would be hard to pick any solid point to address from it. At the time, it looked townie enough. But that's the idea, isn't it? Only when you tell me it's supposed to be provocative does it stop making sense.

[Winston Hughes]

I mean why did you contact him? I can understand why you put the vote on him initially. I don't understand the PM.


:bow:

[GeneralHankerchief]

It made sense at the time?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Look, I don't have a better defense than the above. I haven't played a single game of mafia in nearly three years, I'm not exactly running at peak efficiency here. If you hold me to the same standard as you did in the glory days you're going to be sorely disappointed.

[El Barto]

Interesting move from mafia. Can i keep posting while dead, as i did not see anything about it in the rules?
Well, no. I'd rather have a possible replacement, btw, but everyone so far seems to be interested in actually playing. :D

[GeneralHankerchief]

No posting after death? Crap, now I need to work harder to save myself.

[landlubber]

GH's constant undermining of his skill is hard for me to get my head around. Most of us, like GH, played many games several years ago. Myself, I hadn't played a mafia game since 2011 until this one. You're still a good player, and yet you never admitted to messaging Visor until he revealed it. That's worrying to me.



OMGUS is not the scumtell it used to be. I would certainly avoid it if I were actual scum simply because of the knee-jerk reaction it tends to provoke.


This, though... I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but it sounds like, "OMGUS isn't a scumtell, but it would make people think I'm scum." That's pseudo-logic. I'm not buying it.
Vote:BSmith

[Winston Hughes]

For one, khaan is definitely scum. This will become clearer over the course of the day.

So, is there anything of substance here? If I was going to switch from GH to someone else, it'd be a toss up between you and the guy you're accusing.

[Winston Hughes]

BSmith

You gave me townie vibes on D1, and I buy your line on the OMGUS thing. But today's contribution has been lacking. The way things are going, you're getting lynched sooner or later, and if you don't start putting yourself about a bit more, then we're not going to learn much from your death.

[Csargo]

Look, I don't have a better defense than the above. I haven't played a single game of mafia in nearly three years, I'm not exactly running at peak efficiency here. If you hold me to the same standard as you did in the glory days you're going to be sorely disappointed.

That could be said for a lot of people here. I don't know when the last time I played a game was.

I'm definitely suspicious of you, but that's mainly based on the PM. Your behavior in the thread is much less so imo. There have been one or two posts that sort of pinged my radar, but for the most part seems fine. That being said I don't find BSmith to be that suspicious either. I find both khaan and Montmorency suspicious, so I'll just unvote:GH, Vote:Montmorency

[johnhughthom]

Vote: Monty

Hasn't really made a lot of sense so far, and I'm still waiting for something to become clear.

Or even murky.

[El Barto]

DAY TWO

BSmith was lynched. Believe it or not, the cellphone-poster was a Townie!


BSmith: seireikhaan; Ishmael; landlubber
seireikhaan: Montmorency; BSmith
GeneralHankerchief: WinstonHughes
Montmorency: Csargo; johnhughthom

Not voting: GeneralHankerchief (1×)

Player list
1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash, Survivor, Lynched on Day One
3. BSmith, Townie, Lynched on Day Two
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. johnhughthom
7. Kagemusha, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night One
8. Csargo
9. Winston Hughes
10. Montmorency
11. landlubber

It is now NIGHT TWO.
Time remaining:

[El Barto]

NIGHT TWO

Csargo, a Townie, was found dead in the morning. The mafia had killed him to death.

Player list
1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash, Survivor, Lynched on Day One
3. BSmith, Townie, Lynched on Day Two
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. johnhughthom
7. Kagemusha, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night One
8. Csargo, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night Two
9. Winston Hughes
10. Montmorency
11. landlubber

It is now DAY THREE.
Time remaining:

[Montmorency]

Ishmael, where are you?

What do you make of Khaan?

[El Barto]

GM's note: I have added Day Two's tally, which I'd left out of Day Two's post.
I've also added a list of updates, with links and dates, to the OP.

[landlubber]

I'd like to hear more from JHT. What do you make of everyone so far?

[Csargo]

Hmmm, well that's unfortunate for me. I'd take another look at GH imo. I thought for some reason he had voted BSmith last round, which wasn't the case. I wouldn't have changed my vote had I realized that. Anyways good luck townies and I'll bow out now. :bow:

[Ishmael]

Ishmael, where are you?

What do you make of Khaan?

As I mentioned yesterday I've been keeping an eye on him, but I'm just not finding him to be particularly scummy. I think there are definitely worse lynches than him, but there are probably also better ones as well (I'm just not sure who they are, yet).

[Montmorency]

Vote: Ishmael

This is LYLO. Ishmael is scum.

[Ishmael]

I was under the impression that tomorrow is LyLo? At any rate, do you believe 'khaan is my partner?

[Montmorency]

You and Khaan are my top suspects, though not necessarily as a team.

This isn't technically LYLO with 7 players, sorry.

[landlubber]

I'm not getting very good vibes from Ishmael either, but it seems to me that johnhughthom has been keeping a very, very low profile so far, and that worries me. We haven't seen a lot of contribution from him yet. For now, vote:johnhughthom until I see some solid analysis from him.

[Winston Hughes]

vote: GH

Still not seeing any better case.

[johnhughthom]

I'm not getting very good vibes from Ishmael either, but it seems to me that johnhughthom has been keeping a very, very low profile so far, and that worries me. We haven't seen a lot of contribution from him yet. For now, vote:johnhughthom until I see some solid analysis from him.

:shrug: I've never been one for posting for the sake of posting, if I've nothing to say, I'll say nothing.

The only thing that has really jumped out at me was Monty yesterday, but I'm not sure it's worth a vote.

Solid analysis? Not my style.

[landlubber]

I remember you being the quiet type, so I'm not all that surprised, but I really thought you'd have suspicions on someone, anyone. We've got a lot to work with here. Still, I don't have very good reason to think JHT scum, and I'd like to think he'd put up more of a fight as mafia.

So, who do we have left? Monty's gotten in my good graces today, I think he's been helpful, and . Winston's behavior strikes me as very normal for him. I'm not really understanding the case on Khaan-- I actually liked his logic during D1, struck me quite townie. Given the choice between GH and Ishmael, I think I'll have to go for unvote, vote: Ishmael. The "there's someone scummy in this thread, I'm just not sure who" thing doesn't do it for me. I definitely wouldn't mind a GH lynch, though. Reaching out to Visor was certainly something I wouldn't have done as town, and there was no reason to tell Visor about the "trap" anyway if all he wanted to do was analyze other peoples's behavior.

[seireikhaan]

Vote: Winston Hughes

You were quite rarin' to go on D1 and were quite on board with the Visor lynch. You 'bailed' off it and then switched back later, allegedly to stop a townie lynch, but your phrasing of "has to be" seems very off to me if that was indeed your goal.Since then, you've simply sat on voting for GH without really putting much explanation into it, a tactic I've used myself plenty of times as mafia. It makes you seem less random and like you actually have a goal when you really just want to toss a vote somewhere so people won't accost you.


Also, silly kids these days. I'm *always* scummy.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I was under the impression that tomorrow is LyLo? At any rate, do you believe 'khaan is my partner?

What's LyLo? Lynch wrong and lose?

Anyway, khaan's logic on Winston looks pretty solid and I agree that the tactic mentioned is something I've done in the past as well. Therefore:

Vote: Winston

I'm not going to defend myself over my D1 actions any further, fyi, as I believe the argument's been played out and nothing new will be added.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Also I might not be home before deadline tomorrow, will try to address any issues that arise overnight (western hemisphere) in the morning before I head to work.

[Winston Hughes]

You were quite rarin' to go on D1 and were quite on board with the Visor lynch. You 'bailed' off it and then switched back later, allegedly to stop a townie lynch, but your phrasing of "has to be" seems very off to me if that was indeed your goal.

What? That makes no sense at all. The words 'has to be' indicate precisely what I was thinking: that there was no better viable lynch.


Since then, you've simply sat on voting for GH without really putting much explanation into it, a tactic I've used myself plenty of times as mafia. It makes you seem less random and like you actually have a goal when you really just want to toss a vote somewhere so people won't accost you.

Again, what? No explanation? The reasons behind my vote have been stated more thoroughly and more clearly than any other vote around right now. The reason I've not continued to explain it is because everyone already knows it, and GH has offered only a handwave of a defence to what was said before. I could restate it all, but what's the point if he's not going to engage?


Anyway, khaan's logic on Winston looks pretty solid and I agree that the tactic mentioned is something I've done in the past as well. Therefore:

Vote: Winston

I'm not going to defend myself over my D1 actions any further, fyi, as I believe the argument's been played out and nothing new will be added.

Voting for me on khaan's logic - that I'm just parking my vote without further discussion - whilst refusing further discussion on the subject?

If you're not scum, I have no idea what you've been trying to do in this game.

[seireikhaan]

What? That makes no sense at all. The words 'has to be' indicate precisely what I was thinking: that there was no better viable lynch.

Sorry, but for me that didn't really indicate much at all. The only thing I get out of that is that you think he has to be the lynch, which could be for multiple lynches; in other words, it meant nothing.



Again, what? No explanation? The reasons behind my vote have been stated more thoroughly and more clearly than any other vote around right now. The reason I've not continued to explain it is because everyone already knows it, and GH has offered only a handwave of a defence to what was said before. I could restate it all, but what's the point if he's not going to engage?
Humor me, sweetheart. I don't really get the suspicion over PM'ing. It was pretty clearly a stupid bandwagon waiting to be made, so GH wanted to see if any bad guys would latch onto it. So as far as I am concerned, you haven't really explained much in terms of exactly *why* you think that's scummy. Neither myself nor GH have played a game in... damn, what 2, 3 years? He got friendly with someone who was almost certainly not the mafia. :shrug: So what's the deal?

And regardless, I just really didn't like your vote today especially. It's nothing personal- it's just that you are voting in a pattern I frequently use myself when I am mafia. Find something to latch onto, pretend you're tunneling so you don't have to consider other options, and hope people don't call you on it. It's surprisingly effective for a while.

[Winston Hughes]

For those who don't remember, here is the original case on GH:

*He threw a very gentle vote at Visor right at the start of D1, an obvious vote placed where it was least likely to generate suspicion.

*He then contacted Visor in private to tell him that the vote was only temporary, for which there is no townie justification yet stated.

*Once other people had posted more substantive and provocative cases for lynching Visor, GH switched his vote to BSmith, who was already shaping up to be the game's #1 non-Visor lynch bait.

*He then went on to claim that his accusation of Visor was just 'fishing for responses', which is deeply unconvincing, given how hedged and unprovocative his case was.

To all that, we can now add:

*He's offered only a handwaving defence to the above, apparently hoping that the matter will just fade away.

*He skipped his vote yesterday, and choose to hop on khaan's paper thin case against me today. Where's the scumhunting?

[Winston Hughes]

Sorry, but for me that didn't really indicate much at all. The only thing I get out of that is that you think he has to be the lynch, which could be for multiple lynches; in other words, it meant nothing.

They indicated my thoughts at the time: that Visor had to be the lynch. I'd tried pushing someone I thought might actually be scum, but it hadn't worked, and (iirc) the only real alternative looked to be BSmith, who I thought very likely town (because he's much better at avoiding suspicion when he's scum). All of which I thought was pretty clear at the time.


Humor me, sweetheart. I don't really get the suspicion over PM'ing. It was pretty clearly a stupid bandwagon waiting to be made, so GH wanted to see if any bad guys would latch onto it. So as far as I am concerned, you haven't really explained much in terms of exactly *why* you think that's scummy. Neither myself nor GH have played a game in... damn, what 2, 3 years? He got friendly with someone who was almost certainly not the mafia. :shrug: So what's the deal?

It's pretty simple really. The idea that the scum would threaten Visor was never a viable one, imo. What they might very well do, however, is offer a subtle wink in his direction - a hint that his survival chances might be improved by playing nice.

Have to go now, but I'll try to get back on later to address some other points.

[seireikhaan]

Okay, this is silly.


For those who don't remember, here is the original case on GH:

*He threw a very gentle vote at Visor right at the start of D1, an obvious vote placed where it was least likely to generate suspicion.
What the heck is a "Very gentle vote"? He voted visor immediately after the reveal. Starting a possible bandwagon is neither gentle, nor a place that doesn't generate suspicion. If it didn't generate suspicion, why are you so suspicious of it? :laugh4:



*He then contacted Visor in private to tell him that the vote was only temporary, for which there is no townie justification yet stated.
For which you have also failed to provide a mafia justification- rather, you are simply parroting "he talked in private, that is bad". Wanting not to be lynched is an admirable quality of townies as well.


*Once other people had posted more substantive and provocative cases for lynching Visor, GH switched his vote to BSmith, who was already shaping up to be the game's #1 non-Visor lynch bait.
He was already shaping up to be the game's #1 non-visor lynch... when GH lodged the first vote of anyone to him. Right.


*He then went on to claim that his accusation of Visor was just 'fishing for responses', which is deeply unconvincing, given how hedged and unprovocative his case was.
So let me get this straight. You think GH, as a mafia, sent a PM to someone who he would know is innocent, saying he was fishing and would switch later... which is exactly what he did. What exactly does a mafioso gain from putting himself out like that on day 1? How bad at this game do you think GH is? And I think you confuse "concise" with "hedged". Hedged is what Bsmith was doing(and why he got lynched). One does not need a Pizzaguy thesis to fish.


To all that, we can now add:

*He's offered only a handwaving defence to the above, apparently hoping that the matter will just fade away.
What exactly is a defense for an argument that consists of "you did this, this is bad?" If you want a good defense, you should try a good offense.

*He skipped his vote yesterday, and choose to hop on khaan's paper thin case against me today. Where's the scumhunting?
And *my* case is paper-thin. :rolleyes: You want scumhunting, I suggest you try it. Instead of basing your argument on "did x, x is bad because reasons", try basing it on experiences. Really, if you wanted a case against GH, the scummiest thing he's done is pointing out he wouldn't be on for a bit a few posts ago(something he did precisely the last time he was a scumbag).

[Winston Hughes]

What the heck is a "Very gentle vote"? He voted visor immediately after the reveal. Starting a possible bandwagon is neither gentle, nor a place that doesn't generate suspicion. If it didn't generate suspicion, why are you so suspicious of it? :laugh4:

But it didn't generate any suspicion until he retracted it and made the 'fishing' claim, and even then it was only from me, with Csargo eventually joining me. Nobody else seems to have had any suspicions about him. And I'm not at all surprised. Posting the first vote on Visor was never likely to draw suspicion, especially when couched in the half-jokey, half-confused terms that GH used. And, as we saw, it was an accusation with a preplanned excuse behind it, the only problem being that, if you look at it with any kind of critical eye, the excuse doesn't actually fit the accusation.


For which you have also failed to provide a mafia justification- rather, you are simply parroting "he talked in private, that is bad". Wanting not to be lynched is an admirable quality of townies as well.

Cosying up to third parties whilst posting 'fishing' accusations with no bait and a ready-made excuse at the ready is not even close to townie play in my book.


He was already shaping up to be the game's #1 non-visor lynch... when GH lodged the first vote of anyone to him. Right.

I'd already given BSmith a nudge that he needed to come out more decisive. I could see it was going to get him lynched, sooner or later, but I also recognised that it probably meant he was town.


So let me get this straight. You think GH, as a mafia, sent a PM to someone who he would know is innocent, saying he was fishing and would switch later... which is exactly what he did. What exactly does a mafioso gain from putting himself out like that on day 1? How bad at this game do you think GH is?

I don't think he's bad. I think he's very good, and has managed to fool nearly everyone here into giving him a free pass, despite the fact that he's not making any real effort to find the villains.


And I think you confuse "concise" with "hedged". Hedged is what Bsmith was doing(and why he got lynched). One does not need a Pizzaguy thesis to fish.

No, but one needs something substantive or provocative to act as bait. GH's accusation of Visor has nothing for a passing fish to go for, bar the sheer fact of the vote. And, let's be clear, posting the first vote on someone who's absolutely guaranteed to catch votes is the very opposite of provocative. It's the single best place to hide.


You want scumhunting, I suggest you try it. Instead of basing your argument on "did x, x is bad because reasons", try basing it on experiences.

In my experience, optimal scum play is entirely situational - the key thing is to tailor it to the audience. And I can quite believe that that's what GH has been doing here, as evidenced by the fact that nobody but me is voting for him, even though last night's kill has picked him as suspect once again this morning.

Indeed, seeing the Csargo kill, I bet most people's first thought was 'GH wouldn't be crazy enough to implicate himself like that'. Any notion of the kill implicating him is so bound up in WIFOM that it actually ends up making his lynch less likely. For that reason, whilst it can't be taken as any evidence of GH's guilt, the Csargo kill would be evidence of skilled play on the part of ScumGH.

Anyhow, that's me done for the day. Best guess, I'm probably getting lynched here. If GH really is scum, then I seem to have made a right old mess of this. I don't know why, but my town game seems to work fine everywhere else I play, but here at the org it just falls flat. Still, it's been fun, especially these last exchanges with khaan, so thanks for that. ~:wave:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Morning everybody. Fun little argument to wake up to. :coffeenews:


In my experience, optimal scum play is entirely situational - the key thing is to tailor it to the audience. And I can quite believe that that's what GH has been doing here, as evidenced by the fact that nobody but me is voting for him, even though last night's kill has picked him as suspect once again this morning.

Indeed, seeing the Csargo kill, I bet most people's first thought was 'GH wouldn't be crazy enough to implicate himself like that'. Any notion of the kill implicating him is so bound up in WIFOM that it actually ends up making his lynch less likely. For that reason, whilst it can't be taken as any evidence of GH's guilt, the Csargo kill would be evidence of skilled play on the part of ScumGH.

Right now I think you've caught a bad case of confirmation bias. Take a step back, look at it from other angles, because you're twisting everything that's happened to suit your version of a story. For example, I wasn't aware that arguing for a lynch based off who was or wasn't killed was still in style.

Or it could be because you're a mafioso and feel "committed" to the cause of my lynch. I know I've certainly had that happen before, where I haven't been able to back down.

[johnhughthom]

I remember you being the quiet type, so I'm not all that surprised, but I really thought you'd have suspicions on someone, anyone. We've got a lot to work with here. Still, I don't have very good reason to think JHT scum, and I'd like to think he'd put up more of a fight as mafia.


But if I posted more to defend myself when mafia, surely that would be a very obvious scumtell? ~;)

FWIW, Winston seems to be pushing his very flimsy case very strongly. Scum don't do that.

Often.

I'm going to stick with my Vote: Monty

[Winston Hughes]

Well whadda ye know, I'm back before EOD. Been drinkin' Kwak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosteels_Brewery) for nine hours, though, so the coherence forecast is on the bleak side...

[Ishmael]

Alright, here's my perspective on things:

To me, landlubber seems almost certainly town, which I suspect is not a particularly controversial sentiment. However, after him I'd consider GH to be the least scummy. I feel like his PMing Visorslash doesn't really tell us anything about his alignment, but his posts since make me think he is town, and I don't find his townie explanation for the message to be particularly implausible.

Of the remainder, I've done a complete 180 with respect to Winston since D1 - he's giving me similar vibes of townie analysis to landlubber. jht, I...have absolutely nothing on. Montmorency feels a little off to me, but I acknowledge that I might be a little biased here due to his attack on me. Finally, 'khaan, who I've been at least a little suspicious of for the whole game, and who I probably would have ended up voting for today. Unfortunately he had to go and post a highly convincing argument against Winston that was nearly enough to change my mind on him, and at any rate lowered 'khaan on my mafia scale a bit.

tl;dr: Montmorency and sereikhaan are the two people I find individually most suspicious (with jht taking third essentially by default).

vote: Montmorency

Partly because he's the most scummy of the contenders, and partly because I want to see how the votes move in a tiebreaker round.

[Winston Hughes]

Clearly I'm barking up the wrong tree with GH. Everyone thinks he's cool, so I must be wrong.

Monty PM'd me to tell me to vote for Ishmael. No idea what to make of that.

I wish I was sober right now.

[Winston Hughes]

Aaaaand Ishmael is snuggling me towards a Monty vote.

Full bore paranoia here.

[Ishmael]

Clearly I'm barking up the wrong tree with GH. Everyone thinks he's cool, so I must be wrong.

Monty PM'd me to tell me to vote for Ishmael. No idea what to make of that.

I wish I was sober right now.


That actually sounds worryingly like town Monty.

[Winston Hughes]

Bottom line is that Ishmael has explained himself, whilst Monty has been Mr Taciturn. Neither has boomed scummy vibes to me. And with no idea of the meta for either, I'm left only with first principles, which would mean a Monty vote...

[Winston Hughes]

I think it's GH and john. I'm too drunk for logic or wifom or whatever. My gut tells me they're scummyscumscumscum.

[Montmorency]

Vote: Montmorency

Partly because he's the most scummy of the contenders, and partly because I want to see how the votes move in a tiebreaker round.

Starting a three-way tie this way sounds like something I would do as a power-role.

It is clear that one of Ishmael and Khan is scum, but I still can't place them as partners.

My dastardly last-minute tiebreaker will have to tell the tale.

[Winston Hughes]

That actually sounds worryingly like town Monty.

If you're scum, that's a very neat response. Really ballsy.

[Winston Hughes]

It is clear that one of Ishmael and Khan is scum

I really wish I knew why you think that.

[Ishmael]

Starting a three-way tie this way sounds like something I would do as a power-role.

It is clear that one of Ishmael and Khan is scum, but I still can't place them as partners.

My dastardly last-minute tiebreaker will have to tell the tale.

I could agree to a compromise vote on 'khaan. I feel much the same way about he and you.

[Winston Hughes]

Yeah, I could go with that. On reread, I'm not seeing much townie there. Plenty of words, but not a lot of sticking his neck out.

[Ishmael]

Well, then:

unvote; vote: seireikhaan

[Winston Hughes]

Yeah...

unvote; vote: khaan

[Winston Hughes]

And now the paranoia. Just how good is Monty?

[seireikhaan]

Yeah, I could go with that. On reread, I'm not seeing much townie there. Plenty of words, but not a lot of sticking his neck out.
:rolleyes:

Yes, that's precisely why I picked a fight over your lackluster logic that you kept haranguing about over GH. Oh, wait, the one you apparently don't actually believe in that much after all. I definitely would go and pick a pointless fight over someone that's not me as mafia. That's definitely not pointless and risky when I could just let y'all lynch someone that isn't me.

[Winston Hughes]

You really still think I'm scum? Nah, not buying it.

[Montmorency]

It's Ishmael and landlubber then, crap.

[Winston Hughes]

It's Ishmael and landlubber then, crap.

I'm really enjoying this.

[GeneralHankerchief]

But landlubber voted Ishmael early on in the round...

[GeneralHankerchief]

NO REGRETS

Unvote: Winston
Vote: Monty

CHAOS CHAOS CHAOS

[Ishmael]

I am loving this phase end.

At least until somebody switches a vote on to me in the next minute. Then I won't.

[Winston Hughes]

NO REGRETS

Unvote: Winston
Vote: Monty

CHAOS CHAOS CHAOS

So tempting...

[seireikhaan]

Nothing personal, Monty, but me dying is a poor investment for the town.

Unvote: Winston
Vote: Monty

Wonder mod powers, activate!

[Montmorency]

Well, that's eye-opening.

[Winston Hughes]

Uh oh. That's not so tempting. It's happening again, isn't it Visor? :sweatdrop:

[Ishmael]

Surely it couldn't actually be GH and 'khaan.

Right?

[Montmorency]

Well, here are my final bets given that I'm about to be officially dead:

Ishmael and landlubber or Khaan and GH. Winston will be NKed.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The last fifteen posts or so:

https://i.imgur.com/IfFeUMj.gif

If anybody actually gets this reference I will be shocked.

[Winston Hughes]

Surely it couldn't actually be GH and 'khaan.

You missed one.

[GeneralHankerchief]

khaan, if you and I are both still alive tomorrow, I propose that we vote the same way again just to put the crippling "surely they wouldn't be THIS blatant about it" fear in everyone else.

[seireikhaan]

So is everyone having fun?

[Winston Hughes]

The current sense of impending doom has its charms.

[landlubber]

Shoot, I got here just moments too late.
For the record, I would have gone with Khaan if I could've. His vote on Monty was outrageous.

[El Barto]

Three people are tied for the lynch.


Ishmael: Montmorency; landlubber
GeneralHankerchief: Winston Hughes
Winston Hughes: seireikhaan; GeneralHankerchief
Montmorency: johnhughthom; Ishmael

The first vote to give any of those three the lead will end this phase.
Fire at will, ignorant opinio gentlemen.

GM note: Ignore this post. The correct update is here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?149377-I-m-hosting-a-game!&p=2053649824).

[landlubber]

Hm. I'm really not a fan of lynching Winston or Monty, so my vote stays.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I voted for Monty before the deadline.

[GeneralHankerchief]

In case I didn't,

Unvote
Vote: Monty

[Winston Hughes]

:laugh4:

[seireikhaan]

Uh, yeah.... it's not a tie. Not if the clock was correct.

[Ishmael]

I think you may have missed a few posts, El Barto. The voting was pretty different to that at the deadline.

[El Barto]

Internet seized up! I've just come back in >_<.

Edit: Apparently, when it stops loading like that, the page is later marked as read for the forum software but the alter posts don't show. I was cut off at around post #193 so I'm redoign the tally and everything from scratch.

From edit's timestamp, voting was over almost exactly an hour ago, btw.

Edit2: that means the last valid vote is post #207, seireikhaan's. To the update-o-mat!

[El Barto]

DAY THREE

Montmorency was lynched. He was a townsman!


Ishmael: Montmorency; landlubber
Monty: johnhughthom; GeneralHankerchief; seireikhaan
seireikhaan: Ishmael; Winston Hughes

Not voting: none

Player list
1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash, Survivor, Lynched on Day One
3. BSmith, Townie, Lynched on Day Two
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. johnhughthom
7. Kagemusha, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night One
8. Csargo, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night Two
9. Winston Hughes
10. Montmorency, Townie, Lynched on Day Three
11. landlubber

It is now NIGHT THREE.
Time remaining:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I REGRET NOTH-okay, I have a small regret.

[landlubber]

Nothing personal, Monty, but me dying is a poor investment for the town.

Unvote: Winston
Vote: Monty

Wonder mod powers, activate!

so we should talk about this at some point

[El Barto]

NIGHT THREE

Winston Hughes was killed. He was a townsman!

Player list
1. GeneralHankerchief
2. Visorslash, Survivor, Lynched on Day One
3. BSmith, Townie, Lynched on Day Two
4. Ishmael
5. seireikhaan
6. johnhughthom
7. Kagemusha, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night One
8. Csargo, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night Two
9. Winston Hughes, Townie, Killed by Mafia on Night Three
10. Montmorency, Townie, Lynched on Day Three
11. landlubber

It is now DAY FOUR.
Time remaining:

[GeneralHankerchief]

Vote: landlubber

I'm about 95% certain it's him.

Yes, you're going to ask me to back that up.

Yes, I can back that up.

No, I'm not going to back that up.

No, I'm not going to tell you why.

Just vote landlubber.

[landlubber]

Um, okay. I'm sure everyone trusts you completely and wholeheartedly.

vote:Khaan

because of that legendarily anti-townie bandwagon on Monty.

[GeneralHankerchief]

If you knew with 100% certainty you were town and had the ability of choosing an unknown outcome over a 100% certain poor one, wouldn't you do the same choice?

[seireikhaan]

Vote: landlubber

I'm about 95% certain it's him.

Yes, you're going to ask me to back that up.

Yes, I can back that up.

No, I'm not going to back that up.

No, I'm not going to tell you why.

Just vote landlubber.
I am now going to proceed to ask you to back that up.

Would you please back that up?

I have now asked you to back that up

I will now vote for landlubber.

Vote: Landlubber

I have now voted for landlubber.

[landlubber]

What, lynching Khaan is an unquestionably bad move? I'd love to hear why.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm not saying that lynching khaan is an unquestionably bad move (aside from the fact that he's innocent), I'm saying that if he is lynched it should not be based off his last-second vote last night. Voting to save yourself as townie, assuming you're active, is ALWAYS the right move.

[landlubber]

My last post is @ GH in case it wasn't clear

[seireikhaan]

He's referring to myself. Let's assume I'm town. Is it in my interests to accept a possible lynch of me(0% chance of being mafia), when I could get anyone else lynched?(non-zero chance of being mafia).

[landlubber]

So you two are masons? Or is this instinct? Because your instinct about me isn't right either.

[landlubber]

He's referring to myself. Let's assume I'm town. Is it in my interests to accept a possible lynch of me(0% chance of being mafia), when I could get anyone else lynched?(non-zero chance of being mafia).

A mafioso would act exactly the same way. I'm not a fan of this defense at all.

[GeneralHankerchief]

So you two are masons? Or is this instinct? Because your instinct about me isn't right either.

Masons? Us? No, I just know how khaan operates. We share a bond, you see. WE ARE BROTHERS, BOUND BY AN OATH SEALED WITH THE BLOOD SACRIFICE AS OF THE OLD TIMES.

[seireikhaan]

So you two are masons? Or is this instinct? Because your instinct about me isn't right either.
Masons? Us? No, I just know how GH operates. We share a bond, you see. WE ARE BROTHERS, BOUND BY AN OATH SEALED WITH THE BLOOD SACRIFICE AS OF THE OLD TIMES.

[GeneralHankerchief]

A mafioso would act exactly the same way. I'm not a fan of this defense at all.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

So anytime somebody does anything that a mafioso might do, it merits a lynch? I made a post this day phase. If a mafioso makes a post this day phase too, then since I did a thing the mafia did, I should be lynched?

[landlubber]

You know what I meant. Trying to save himself to the eventual detriment of the town isn't striking me as townie, sorry, and your insistent defense of him isn't exactly warming me up to you either.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I thought this argument had been discredited in 2009, evidently not.

OPERATING UNDER THE PRINCIPLES THAT YOU ARE TOWN:

You have 100% knowledge and certainty that you are town and therefore, innocent. You are the only person that you have 100% certainty on. You may have various certainty levels, which obviously define and shape your votes, but only you yourself have that full 100%.

Because of this rare and wonderful certainty, from your personal POV, literally any lynch target is more appealing than yourself. So, between khaan and Monty last night, khaan knew that his own lynch, ahead of time, had a 100% chance of being incorrect for the town.

As for khaan's certainty levels about Monty? Who knows? It might have been 50%. It might have been 75%. It might have been 1%. But even if khaan was 99% certain that Monty was innocent, that's still a better play, for him, as town, to lynch Monty.

It's not "saving himself to the eventual detriment of the town" (what does that even mean? some people are instinctively better to leave alive?). It's playing the percentages and acting with limited information as best you see fit.

[landlubber]

My vote on Khaan stays. His vote was self-centered, bottom line, and I don't trust that. I've been nothing but helpful. If that gets me lynched, so be it. I've done as much as I can by this point.

[GeneralHankerchief]

"I can't think of a response that adequately addresses the above points and I've already committed to this lynch and I have no desire to change it because as mafia I'm looking for the easy target and not the accurate one"

[landlubber]

Not quite. I got beat this game. I was wrong on Visor, wrong on BSmith, and too late to lynch Khaan when I had the chance yesterday. If you two really are the last townies, it's over. My only hope is that both JHT and Ishmael are town, which I doubt. I take responsibility for my bad moves this game, and if we lose because two townies are unwaveringly convinced of my guilt, I hope you will too.

[Montmorency]

"I can't think of a response that adequately addresses the above points

It's not a good argument unless you're talking about chess pieces rather than actual players. Last-minute self-rescue rarely plays out well for the town, even if a townie is the one doing it.

[landlubber]

New theory: GH is mafia and is so assured of Khaan's innocence because he has perfect information. Khaan is going along with it because GH helped save him yesterday. Wouldn't that be something?

I'm still too sold on a Khaan lynch to want to switch, though.

[GeneralHankerchief]

It's not a good argument unless you're talking about chess pieces rather than actual players. Last-minute self-rescue rarely plays out well for the town, even if a townie is the one doing it.

Look, if you're in the position to save yourself, you're going to take it ten times out of ten. Doesn't matter if you're mafia, town, serial killer, cult leader, third-party, chief cook, or bottle washer. The only thing that this proved yesterday was that khaan was online.

At this point I'm actually getting a little weirded out from having to spend this much time in a critical phase defending a gameplay move that's been universally accepted for years.