View Full Version : 2day's featured unit-Byzantine Infantry
Michael the Great
11-29-2002, 21:44
I'm gonna do a series of periodical threads about units.
So,how do u use Byz Infantry,what tactics do u apply?
What r they best used for?
BYZANTINE INFANTRY
100 man unit
Attack:2
Defence:2
Charge:3
Weapon:Sword
Brother Derfel
11-29-2002, 21:54
I've recently started a campaigne with the Byzantines (note recently, so I have not been playing with them long) and I have used their Infantry basicaly as a good holding unit. From what i have seen they are prety typical heavy infantry and I use them to hold the centre of my battle line whilst more dynamic troops send in the killer blows and deal with my flanks. A good melle troop for earlier campaigns i feel and at the stage I am in the campaign they are my first choice heavy infantry.
However I doubt they will stay useful for long as later troops i think will out class them.
Thats just my oppinion of them at the moment, but that could change as I use them more.
Thanks
Bob the Insane
11-30-2002, 02:31
Byz Infantry... SP.. Early game.. There is only one word for them.. Fantastic...
Their stats are almost as good as Feudal MAA in stats and they outnumber them by 40% for the same cost..
They will take peasants apart almost without a loss, Spearmen with minimal losses, Feudal Sergeants pretty easily and only Feudal MMA start to inflict heavy casualties (and there the Byz Inf's numbers come into play..) They will eat light cavalry and put them in the woods and they will take heavy cavalry to pieces.
And they are the basic Byz unit...
Tactics... Attack, always attack with them even in defence.. They get no rows bonus (I believe) so are same to use anywhere, their armour allows them to attack archers. I put them in long line only 2 or 3 ranks deep so they can wrap around their target..
In early games the best thing about them is you can through them into a melee and then pay attention elsewhere confident that they will hold their ground and probably come out on top...
Played Byzantines a couple of times so far. However my stile of playing doesn´t let them come into action very often.
I prefere to engage the enemy on open plains. Spearmen holding the line ... long range archers behind them (or in front ... depends) ... For Flanks I mostly use Cavalry.
I found "ordinary" swordsmen of little use for my startegy.
The only real use I found for them is that they kill spearmen pretty good. However ... they are slow (like all Infantery) ... they die vs. Heavy Cavalry pretty fast, so they are no use for the first line. Best they are used in the second or third line ... but there are other units I prefere over them.
I only use them real early in the game ... and only in limited numbers (max. 1-2 units of them per Army).
Later they are outclassed by the Varangian Guard ... but I don´t use them that often either.
All in all I have to say ... Swordsmen are a waste in my opinion (at least in sp) ... Spearmen or other (weaker) Swordsmen is about the only thing they can fight (not counting Archers, Peasants or other really weak units ... they don´t bother me anyways). Once Cavalry is upon the field ... they better hide behind some Spearmen or will be primary target for the Cavalry-charge. With only 16 units available ... I definately pick 16 others than "ordinary" Swordsmen.
PS: Nice thread idea Maybe collect all replies to the series and put them in one file. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Spetulhu
11-30-2002, 07:06
Useful guys. I happily team them up with something like Treb Archers or Pavise X-bows on a 1-1 basis.
If the enemy melee troops try to get at the missilers I have the Byz Inf go and kill them.
If the enemy gets bogged down by missile fire I have the Byz Inf go and kill them.
If the enemy brings many missilers of his own I have the Byz Inf go and kill them.
The fact you can build these guys with only a basic Swordsmith means they are available almost anywhere. Easy to replace and refill, just as I want it.
these guys are TERRIFIC
i use them as my only foot in MP when i play as Byz. they perform great in early and high, and moderately well in Late. if it is a high florin game in late, their upgrades are cheap enough to counter other available units. hell, their upgrades are cheap in any situation. i generally use them in a single line, in front of or behind the pavise, depending on the situation(byz calvary as my flank guard). i have recently encountered some weaknesses in this approach and will be expirementing with a new fomation that i have devised recently.
overall, the Byz. Inf. is one of the best foot in the game.
Michael the Great
11-30-2002, 20:47
Quote[/b] (Jaret @ Nov. 29 2002,20:28)]Played Byzantines a couple of times so far. However my stile of playing doesn´t let them come into action very often.
I prefere to engage the enemy on open plains. Spearmen holding the line ... long range archers behind them (or in front ... depends) ... For Flanks I mostly use Cavalry.
I found "ordinary" swordsmen of little use for my startegy.
The only real use I found for them is that they kill spearmen pretty good. However ... they are slow (like all Infantery) ... they die vs. Heavy Cavalry pretty fast, so they are no use for the first line. Best they are used in the second or third line ... but there are other units I prefere over them.
I only use them real early in the game ... and only in limited numbers (max. 1-2 units of them per Army).
Later they are outclassed by the Varangian Guard ... but I don´t use them that often either.
All in all I have to say ... Swordsmen are a waste in my opinion (at least in sp) ... Spearmen or other (weaker) Swordsmen is about the only thing they can fight (not counting Archers, Peasants or other really weak units ... they don´t bother me anyways). Once Cavalry is upon the field ... they better hide behind some Spearmen or will be primary target for the Cavalry-charge. With only 16 units available ... I definately pick 16 others than "ordinary" Swordsmen.
PS: Nice thread idea Maybe collect all replies to the series and put them in one file. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Yup,i'll do that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Just hope Cheetah is readin' this,it would be nice to have ppl's opinions on thy units,but of course,that's gonna take some time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Btw,how often do u think I should start a now topic about units(like this one)?
Duno ... afte enough ppl had replyed ... maybe twice a week ? ... or something alike.
Michael the Great
12-01-2002, 18:22
Arghh Nooo just look at my avatar...hmm..thought the one with the knight was better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
In my experience, swords are generally better than spear. I've never been able to get spear to not run away at the first enemy looking at them in a cross manner, and while swords may not repel cavalry charges quite as well, they tend to do better against cavalry once they bog them down in a protracted melee.
So for me, the Byzantine Infantry are all I use until I can get Varangians, at which point I phase them out entirely.
Then again, I don't favor a mobile style. I'm a foot general and damn proud of it. I generally have one or two cavalry units at most, and I fight tight, defensive battles, so the slow speed of armored units doesn't bother me.
-Musashi
I find them extremely useful when defending a castle.
The no-retreat facet of castle defence offsets their sometimes shaky resolve, and the 100-man unitsize means they can hold a breach forever, especially with a few armour upgrades.
And all the while my arrowtowers are taking their toll http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
A.Saturnus
12-02-2002, 13:07
I haven`t played the byz more than a quick start (although I had a cool battle in Naples were are unit of byz inf and naphtas killed 800 peasants!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but I`m fighting them inmy Italian campaign and I find byz inf a hard nut. My chiv-maa are better, but these guys come in such overwhelming numbers Also they are disciplined and don`t run so easily.
A pretty tough unit. They might appear weak, but with generally good Byzantine generals, they get excellent upgrades to attack, defense and morale due to high command points - an eight star Byzant general will add +4 attack, +4 defense, and +8 morale to their base stats. That tends to make them equal to theoretically much better high era units. And the 100 men per unit also compensates.
All in all, I use them 50/50 with Varangian Guards as my infantry shock force in Byzant armies.
Grifman
Griff it has been established for a some time now that the generals does not give any Morale from their stars, go and take a look yourself. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
But Byz Inf from Constantinople are great, you can quickly build many improvments to Morale there, so the Infantry won't run as soon as they are flanked. In other provinces it is very important to get a Church up before the Swordsmith to give the Infantry a chance to hold up in combat.
But when this is settled, about 50 years into the game, the Byz Inf should rule all it faces.
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Dec. 02 2002,09:43)]Griff it has been established for a some time now that the generals does not give any Morale from their stars, go and take a look yourself. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Oops, never saw that "established" fact and I frequent these boards a fair amount http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Nevertheless, even without that, the other upgrades from command points are pretty good, and there are plenty of other units with zero morale so I don't consider that much of a liability. Still a great unit.
Grifman
Well, while it is an established fact it is not well known. It was something that Arkatreides found out back in eraly October... he even found that sometimes generals don't give the correct bonusses besides Morale, that I have myself seen a couple of times (Rank 4 only giving +1 to def and melee, instead of +2).
I have been trying to spread this info as much as possible so people don't make the same mistakes I have... But it is an uphill battle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif
I'm guessing this was fixed in the patch then, because I find my 8 and 9 star generals never ever have to deal with routing units... I can generally order a peasant unit to stand and fight, outnumbered three to one, and watch them fight to the last man losing all the way just because the general is in the 7-9 star range and he's dropping +3-4 valor on all his troops.
In fact, I can transfer men in and out of his army and watch their valor ratings change before my eyes, so...
-Musashi
Musashi, check your F1 screen next time, and at the same time make sure the general doesn't have any Vices that count towards Morale (which can be very hard when we talk about generals at Rank 7-9)...
It is much easier to check with generals at Rank 2-4 as they often come out without any Vices.
BTW, it is not something that needs fixing as in the thread where this was revelled we were visited by longjohn, and he while he didn't exactly talk about this he did say that the Valours from Ranks are not given as Valours rather the Valours come from the bonus to attack and defence. That would indicate that the Ranks does not give any Morale.
Sad Tomato
12-03-2002, 05:15
i am using them as general purpose troops, holding an important place in the defensive line, on the flanks ready to counter attack (they seem quite good in this role), assault troops in the rare occassions i attack.
they seem vunerable to arrows, more so than spear units. this must have something to do with shields or armour.
so far in my byzantium campaign they have always performed well in battle, in fact, saving my arse a few times.
i like them. not as good as varangian guards in assault but much lower building requirements allow for many points of production rather quickly.
Sad Tomato, don't worry too much about arrows, your Byz Inf have 5 Armour on the front, 3 Armour + 2 Armour from the shield. Much better than the 3 Armour (1 Armour + 2 Armour from shield) of the Spearmen.
Rosacrux
12-03-2002, 16:31
Byzantine infantry are probably the most versatile, all-around, all-purpose unit this game has to offer. I have learned to love them in conjunction with the great Byzantine generals – the stats boost is awesome.
Use them uphill or downhill, in the center or in the flanks, first row or second (you guys use more than one row? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) no problem. Use them in the open or in the woods, no problem. Spread them thin, attack, attack, attack, let them wrap around the (smaller) enemy unit… finito. Upgrade their armor and morale and they have no match whatsoever.
Best unit for the money and technology required. Varangian are much better, but also cost double, come in 60-men units and require two turns to build. In Late, a decent balanced attacking force of mine would have at least 4 (usually 5 or even 6) of those nasty buggers, along with a couple of Varangian, three or four Byz. Cavalry and a couple of shock cavalry (kataphraktoi or/and Pronoiai Allagion).
A defensive force would have about the same, minus the Byz. Cavalry (replaced by missile units).
Ok still working out some issues with Byzantine. Ive been using the wrong troops it seems. Been going heavy spearmen with very little infantry. Course ive had a lot of missile support, but ive wondered why id lost a couple fights. Thanks guys.
Naagi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
In a different thread, I compared Byz.Inf. with FMAA (Feudal Man-At-Arm). Byz.Inf. has slightly better edge (due to number).
One thing should always keep in mind: the spears are useful to protect the Byz.Inf. from Cavalry attack, especially when enemy has Heavy Cav wielding axes.
Annie
Yeah, when I first started playing Byz, I tried to use spear to screen my archers, and relied heavily on Kata charges, then I did some experimenting in the custom battle system, and discovered that every spear unit in the entire game sucks with the exception of Swiss Armored Pikemen (Which Byz can never get) and Janissary Heavy Infantry (Which is Turk only). Before that I had thought that it was Byz's lack of pikes that was hurting me, but when I realized that normal pikes are nearly as worthless as normal spearmen I started trying my Byzantine Infantry and found they actually acquitted themselves against cavalry charges better than normal spearmen. Who knew?
They also lay waste to most other infantry units and are quite survivable for the cost. Varangian Guard are better in every way (And they're the second or third best cavalry repelling unit in the whole game, behind SAPs and possibly JHI, but capable of defeating both of those units in a fight) but it takes a while to get to a point where you can produce them in numbers.
I definitely recommend you build as many Varangian Guard as you possibly can as soon as possible, since they are hands down your best unit, but in the early game Byz Infantry are definitely the backbone of your military.
Remember that Byz can't produce Halberds, or even Militia Sergeants, so it's down to Spearmen, Urban Militia, or Byz Infantry. Obviously Spearmen are totally worthless, even UM are stronger, but I think the choice between Byz Infantry and UM is an easy one when you consider how much better Byz Infantry perform in a punch up.
-Musashi
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