IMMIGRATION thread

[Pannonian]

No instances of Irishmen born in England who may have helped in some way, shape or form, IRA in committing some crimes?

So you ignored the bit about the republicans having qualms about targeting civilians, and their always keeping contacts open and mostly keeping to their agreements. After the worst atrocity in the Troubles, the bombing at Omagh, RIRA refrained from further civilian targeting, and IIRC parts of them split away, while the rump PIRA assisted in making sure that no such things happened again as far as was in their control. That's terrorism with politics in mind, and when politics is involved, our society can deal with it.

Contrast with the 7/7 bombings, which killed even more than the Omagh incident. After the Omagh bombing, the various IRAs refrained from further attacks as killing civilians wasn't their primary aim, and indeed went against their primary aim, which was political. A few weeks after the 7/7 attacks, there were another series of attempted attacks in south London, thwarted only by the incompetence of the perpetrators. There wasn't any political aim to these attacks. The only aim was to kill as many civilians as possible. And after one incident of killing dozens of civilians, there wasn't a group responsible that was shocked by the death toll, that decided to stop further attacks as their political aim was undermined by the lethality of the attack. Instead, that first incident inspired another attack, without any political aim, but only with the aim of killing as many soft targets as possible.

There is a world of difference between terrorism with political aims, and terrorism that only tries to kill as many innocents as possible. The former requires that there is someone that we can deal with. We can cope with that. The latter doesn't have anyone that we can deal with, and the only thing we can do is suck it up. The Irish republicans were shocked by the death toll of Omagh, and no longer wanted anything to do with the attackers. The Islamists celebrated the death toll of the 7/7 bombings, and were inspired to attempt further attacks. While we may differ in politics, the Irish republicans are still recognisably of the same world as us. Islamists are completely alien to us.

[Brenus]

"There is a world of difference between terrorism with political aims, and terrorism that only tries to kill as many innocents as possible" I understand what you are saying. But killing innocents has as well a political aim.

[Sarmatian]

So you ignored the bit about the republicans having qualms about targeting civilians, and their always keeping contacts open and mostly keeping to their agreements. After the worst atrocity in the Troubles, the bombing at Omagh, RIRA refrained from further civilian targeting, and IIRC parts of them split away, while the rump PIRA assisted in making sure that no such things happened again as far as was in their control. That's terrorism with politics in mind, and when politics is involved, our society can deal with it.

Contrast with the 7/7 bombings, which killed even more than the Omagh incident. After the Omagh bombing, the various IRAs refrained from further attacks as killing civilians wasn't their primary aim, and indeed went against their primary aim, which was political. A few weeks after the 7/7 attacks, there were another series of attempted attacks in south London, thwarted only by the incompetence of the perpetrators. There wasn't any political aim to these attacks. The only aim was to kill as many civilians as possible. And after one incident of killing dozens of civilians, there wasn't a group responsible that was shocked by the death toll, that decided to stop further attacks as their political aim was undermined by the lethality of the attack. Instead, that first incident inspired another attack, without any political aim, but only with the aim of killing as many soft targets as possible.

There is a world of difference between terrorism with political aims, and terrorism that only tries to kill as many innocents as possible. The former requires that there is someone that we can deal with. We can cope with that. The latter doesn't have anyone that we can deal with, and the only thing we can do is suck it up. The Irish republicans were shocked by the death toll of Omagh, and no longer wanted anything to do with the attackers. The Islamists celebrated the death toll of the 7/7 bombings, and were inspired to attempt further attacks. While we may differ in politics, the Irish republicans are still recognisably of the same world as us. Islamists are completely alien to us.

Putting aside at the moment the whole notion of better terrorism, I'm primarily interested in this part


There wasn't any political aim to these attacks

Wasn't there? Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad. Previous terror attacks mostly involved Muslims from their own sphere of influence, rather than Muslims from the Middle East. We in Yugoslavia didn't have problems with Irish terrorists, you guys in the UK didn't have problems with Croatian terrorists.

While you may argue that UK isn't involved in anything happening in the Middle East, regardless if that's true or not, they do not perceive it that way.

So, I wouldn't really say there's no connection with politics.

[Pannonian]

Putting aside at the moment the whole notion of better terrorism, I'm primarily interested in this part

Wasn't there? Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad. Previous terror attacks mostly involved Muslims from their own sphere of influence, rather than Muslims from the Middle East. We in Yugoslavia didn't have problems with Irish terrorists, you guys in the UK didn't have problems with Croatian terrorists.

While you may argue that UK isn't involved in anything happening in the Middle East, regardless if that's true or not, they do not perceive it that way.

So, I wouldn't really say there's no connection with politics.

If there's a political aim, who do we talk to to prevent further attacks?

[Sarmatian]

If there's a political aim, who do we talk to to prevent further attacks?

Those close to the top of the relevant organizations would be my guess. What would happen afterwards is anyone's guess.

[Pannonian]

Those close to the top of the relevant organizations would be my guess. What would happen afterwards is anyone's guess.

So what's the relevant organisation?

[Sarmatian]

So what's the relevant organisation?

Relevant organizations. More than one. ISIS, Al Nusra and so on. My guess is that their demands would be practical, but totally unacceptable.

[Pannonian]

Relevant organizations. More than one. ISIS, Al Nusra and so on. My guess is that their demands would be practical, but totally unacceptable.

So which were the relevant organisations for the 7/7 and subsequent attacks? What are their demands?

[Snowhobbit]

Putting aside at the moment the whole notion of better terrorism, I'm primarily interested in this part



Wasn't there? Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad. Previous terror attacks mostly involved Muslims from their own sphere of influence, rather than Muslims from the Middle East. We in Yugoslavia didn't have problems with Irish terrorists, you guys in the UK didn't have problems with Croatian terrorists.

While you may argue that UK isn't involved in anything happening in the Middle East, regardless if that's true or not, they do not perceive it that way.

So, I wouldn't really say there's no connection with politics.

Could you enlighten me on the Swedish involvement in the Middle East? Since we were also blessed with a suicide bomber.

[Snowhobbit]

To add on to the whole scam pulled by a lot of grown men, here we have a "13 year old" who won a local 600meter sprint. Ctrl+F Pojkar födda -03 http://www5.idrottonline.se/GefleIFFIF-Friidrott/Nyheter/Klubbnyheter/BilderfranGDGIFsfinaler/

[Husar]

Could you enlighten me on the Swedish involvement in the Middle East? Since we were also blessed with a suicide bomber.

http://www.thelocal.se/20151004/300-swedes-have-left-to-join-extremist

:no: ~;)

[Snowhobbit]

http://www.thelocal.se/20151004/300-swedes-have-left-to-join-extremist

:no: ~;)

Right, but this is long after our suicide bomber, and I believe he would be pleased by that development ;)

And to add to the post above, our so called 13 year old actually managed to come in 2nd in the 60meter sprint. Honestly I'd be ashamed if I couldn't beat 13 year olds in any kind of physical competition.

[Sarmatian]

So which were the relevant organisations for the 7/7 and subsequent attacks? What are their demands?

Well, if MI6 has problems reaching conclusions based on the available intelligence, you really need to question how are your taxes spent.


Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight.

What have you witnessed now is only the beginning of a string of attacks that will continue and become stronger until you pull your forces out of Afghanistan and Iraq. And until you stop your financial and military support to America and Israel.

The relevant organization is al-Qaeda in this case, btw.

Here you have everything you need. The reason why, warning of future attacks, what to do to stop it and who to talk to about it.

[Pannonian]

Well, if MI6 has problems reaching conclusions based on the available intelligence, you really need to question how are your taxes spent.

The relevant organization is al-Qaeda in this case, btw.

Here you have everything you need. The reason why, warning of future attacks, what to do to stop it and who to talk to about it.

Do you agree that he believes in the point being made?

[Sarmatian]

Do you agree that he believes in the point being made?

It doesn't matter if he personally believes it or not. The second part of the quote was from Zawahiri, and added later. You have Al Qaeda planning the attack, recruiting the attackers, instructing them how to pull it off and probably giving the order to execute it. Then you have the then second-in-command, now leader of Al Qaeda explaining the political aspect.

It is not the issue of no political goal, it is that the political goal is unacceptable to the western countries.

[Pannonian]

It doesn't matter if he personally believes it or not. The second part of the quote was from Zawahiri, and added later. You have Al Qaeda planning the attack, recruiting the attackers, instructing them how to pull it off and probably giving the order to execute it. Then you have the then second-in-command, now leader of Al Qaeda explaining the political aspect.

It is not the issue of no political goal, it is that the political goal is unacceptable to the western countries.

More importantly, "Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world." If a born Briton can regard a foreign people as "my people", legitimising his act of violence against the country he was born and raised in, why the hell should we bring in yet more of "these people"? I say, give him what he wants, total withdrawal from the Muslim world, and at the same time a total embargo on the admission of more Muslims into the UK.

Except, of course, Al-Qaeda currently seem to think that they were wrong in prioritising the pursuit of violence against the west, allowing ISIS to trump them. No matter, give them what they want, even if they regret demanding it. Let's see what their next excuse is for bombing the west, and whether their apologists continue to blame the west for everything we do and don't do.

[Brenus]

"So which were the relevant organisations for the 7/7 and subsequent attacks? What are their demands?"
From Osama Bin Laden:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

Clear enough, I would say...

[Slyspy]

Why can't we just put them in gas chambers instead? Surely that is cheaper?

Or you know, there could be other solutions that maintain human dignity while not drowning our systems and exposing the population to something that they do not want.

If you have people arriving on your doorstep you either let them in and help them if they need it or shut them out and force them away if they persist. Those are your choices.

[Fragony]

If you have people arriving on your doorstep you either let them in and help them if they need it or shut them out and force them away if they persist. Those are your choices.

Option number two, if it's just of no use to try it will be on the social-networks economic-migrants use in notime. I completly agree with Pannonian, if you are safe and travel further you are no longer a refugee but a migrant, and that must stop.

[Pannonian]

"So which were the relevant organisations for the 7/7 and subsequent attacks? What are their demands?"
From Osama Bin Laden:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

Clear enough, I would say...

See my subsequent reply to Sarmatian. By pointing out the message from MSK (I refrain from posting his full name), he just confirms my feelings that that community will tend to produce people who will de-integrate from British society, to the point of pursuing violence against the country that raised them. I don't want any more Muslims entering the UK, whatever the arguments about economics or humane treatment. They're not worth the hassle.

[Husar]

Option number two, if it's just of no use to try it will be on the social-networks economic-migrants use in notime. I completly agree with Pannonian, if you are safe and travel further you are no longer a refugee but a migrant, and that must stop.

You always talk about how many people are not safe in German refugee camps. What makes you think they would be safe in refugee camps elsewhere? Or please just expand on what exactly you mean.

[Fragony]

You always talk about how many people are not safe in German refugee camps. What makes you think they would be safe in refugee camps elsewhere? Or please just expand on what exactly you mean.

They don't come to Germany with the intention to go home. If you travel any further than the first safe country you stop being a refugee and become a migrant.

[Husar]

They don't come to Germany with the intention to go home. If you travel any further than the first safe country you stop being a refugee and become a migrant.

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

[Pannonian]

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

And if Britain is any indicator, you can leave for a faraway land to make your fortune, be welcomed by the locals, integrate yourself into British society, raise a family that's as inculcated in local norms as any other British family. And your children decide this isn't for them, decide to identify themselves with the Muslim nation that their parents left rather than the British nation that raised them, and become a jihadi to kill abroad or even in Britain. And aside from those who take violent action, there are quite a few who cheer them on, even though they too were born in and raised in Britain.

For every other community, you can expect a process of integration, but once that process is done, future generations are accepted as indelibly British. Only among the Muslim community do you have such a proliferation of de-integration, so that at no point can you be confident that integration is done, and there is a good chance that those who de-integrate themselves will turn to violent action against Britain and Britons. And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.

Nope, as MSK says, his people is not the British people. We don't need any more of his people here.

[Fragony]

Yeah, well, if I told you you can live in a trashcan here and return to live in a toilet in five years, or you could try to go get a good life in a faraway land, what would you prefer? If money is their sole motivation, how come they didn't all come before there was a war?

Because they weren't invited to come en masse back then

[Gilrandir]

Since Russian involvement in Syria, there has been a quite a few terror attacks on Russian soil or on Russian citizens abroad.

The number of attacks was few, but what about the number of victims? The Russian plane that fell in Egypt would make up for a dozen terror attacks victim-wise.

[Sarmatian]

And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.


That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.


The number of attacks was few, but what about the number of victims? The Russian plane that fell in Egypt would make up for a dozen terror attacks victim-wise.

"quite a few" meaning a respectable number. Russia wasn't a target of Middle Eastern terrorists before Russia started meddling in Syria.

Point being, it contradicts the notion that terrorism isn't connected to a political goal.

[Snowhobbit]

That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.



"quite a few" meaning a respectable number. Russia wasn't a target of Middle Eastern terrorists before Russia started meddling in Syria.

Point being, it contradicts the notion that terrorism isn't connected to a political goal.

Do I need to boil my previous post down so that it does not contain as much information in response for you to address it?

[Pannonian]

That is actually not true.

There are some 650 Muslims in British Armed Forces and some 450 British Muslims fighting in Syria, in all groups, although the estimation is that the majority of those 450 are indeed with ISIS.

There have been more British Muslims in Syria but they became disillusioned with various opposition forces who either collaborated with fundamentalists or were in fact fundamentalists themselves.

Don't think every single person who went to Syria is a traitor.

They're not traitors. To be a traitor to Britain, you have to be British, then betray Britain. As your earlier quote illustrates, British Muslims are Muslims, not British. Even if they were born in Britain, if they are Muslim, then their people is the Muslim nation, not Britain.

[Sarmatian]

Do I need to boil my previous post down so that it does not contain as much information in response for you to address it?

What previous post?


They're not traitors. To be a traitor to Britain, you have to be British, then betray Britain. As your earlier quote illustrates, British Muslims are Muslims, not British. Even if they were born in Britain, if they are Muslim, then their people is the Muslim nation, not Britain.

That is a few Muslims, not all Muslims.

You'd have a much better case calling Scots traitors, as almost a half of them don't consider themselves British.

[Fragony]

Sarmatarian has a point though, those who went to Syria aren't necesarily traiters, a substantial amount went to fight Assad when IS didn't exist at the time. It's different of course for those who go now. There are Dutch ex-military militias who fight alongside the Kurds, traitors as well, Turkey is a Nato-partner after all and they kinda dislike Kurds. I say go militias

[Pannonian]

What previous post?



That is a few Muslims, not all Muslims.

You'd have a much better case calling Scots traitors, as almost a half of them don't consider themselves British.

Except I'm no longer calling the Muslims traitors. They're not British, by their own admission, so they can't be traitors to Britain. What the Muslims demonstrate is that, unlike nearly every other immigrant community, there is no reliable process of integration for them. However well any individual or generation integrates, there is a high likelihood that somewhere along the line there will be someone who decides they are Muslims first and British nowhere, and that this justifies violence against the British people. Which, since they had a birthright of British citizenship, they can more easily carry out. Same problem with the French apparently, who have also produced their own homegrown jihadis. In the light of that, there is no good reason to admit yet more Muslims into the UK, whatever guilting arguments people want to impress on us. Accept the current situation as a loss, and stop its further spread from abroad. Syrians shouldn't go through the normal admissions process. They shouldn't be admitted, full stop.

[Snowhobbit]

What previous post?


See below.


In the form that Germany is in it and that free movement is allowed for all workers, it does indeed date back to the 60's. Of course it does not exist within the EU framework before 1992, since the EU was not founded until 1992. But we are not discussing EU but free movement of people.

There is most certainly a whole lot of research on employment numbers of the two respective groups, I would suggest you look harder (for example at OECD). From these numbers, and the numbers of people on welfare and the cost of that, we can extrapolate whether people are a cost or a gain. The study that you refer to clumps all migration into one. There is a huge difference between a German engineer and a Polish plumber, let alone between a Syrian dentist and a Syrian farmer, in terms of employability, capacity to support oneself and generate taxes, integration into society, criminality and other costs, usage of welfare etc. To clump all into one is highly disingenuous. For reference of how to not do the reports, you can look up Sandviken immigration report. I would reccommend among others Tino Sanadaji for a hard economic science look at the thing.

Of course Googling crime+immigrants will turn up a whole lot of crap, that is the nature of the beast. In 2005 I think it was (before the government decided it was not a good idea to show a public account of this figure) BRÅ (Crime prevention council) produced a report on the over representation of immigrants compared to natives in crime, dividing it up by crime categories for native, first and second generation immigrants, as well as immigrants by region as a whole. These numbers were adjusted for socio-economic factors, but all the same the over representation among crimes, especially the really bad ones like aggravated assault, murder and rape was quite large. Today we no longer get public numbers on this, but Swedes are now a minority in jail doing hard time. But yeah there are people screaming bloody murder for no reason on the internet and certain groups are painted bad as a whole. I would like to add that even with the massive over representation something like 98% of immigrants are not criminals.

I'm glad you asked. We were looking at an influx of about half a million per year minimum. The reception systems were unable to handle it and we were having people sleeping in tents in winter (heated mind you), near a thousand people were housed in a convention hall where they had all of 12 bathrooms to share. We have rampant crimes being committed in the centers, a large spike in public sexual assault. Our swimming pools have become havens for sexual crimes and I would question the sanity of anyone bringing their female children or even adult female relatives or friends to such an establishment. We have completely failed at checking the age of so called unaccompanied "minors" (not that all of them are not minors, but possibly a majority of them are adults). We've had cases of children being raped by the pretend children in the homes. We've had a man of 40+ years old being treated as a child. We've had a female worker in one of the homes be stabbed to death as she intervened to save the life of a probably actually child being assaulted to a "child". We spend more on these children than the entire Afghan state budget, including foreign aid. Our social services are unable to meet the demands that the law places upon them and have started reporting themselves for this. We are lacking about 1 million homes nationwide, today. The absolute majority of the people who have arrived are educated for about 5 years on average, in a highly developed and demanding economy where we have taxed the smaller easier jobs out of the market decades ago. We are reaching levels where the housing standard might return to what it was 100 years ago (no internal plumbing or heating), in order to provide a roof over the head for people.

Oh and we are likely going to have to send about 80,000 people home due to their application being denied next year. Last year police had the task to send about 5,000 home but only managed 4,000. In smaller cities police (police nation-wide are used to enforce the border controls) lack the resources to investigate murder and attempted murder. We have street gangs of North African "children" who basically get to act outside the law, openly engage in drug trade less than a kilometer from parliament and frequently gang-raping women. Police are unable to prosecute them due to their claimed age, and when they do get caught they are often out within a week, having escaped from the foster home in which they were placed.

I think that about sums it up, but someone can correct me if I've missed something.

This previous post

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

And if Britain is any indicator, you can leave for a faraway land to make your fortune, be welcomed by the locals, integrate yourself into British society, raise a family that's as inculcated in local norms as any other British family. And your children decide this isn't for them, decide to identify themselves with the Muslim nation that their parents left rather than the British nation that raised them, and become a jihadi to kill abroad or even in Britain. And aside from those who take violent action, there are quite a few who cheer them on, even though they too were born in and raised in Britain.

For every other community, you can expect a process of integration, but once that process is done, future generations are accepted as indelibly British. Only among the Muslim community do you have such a proliferation of de-integration, so that at no point can you be confident that integration is done, and there is a good chance that those who de-integrate themselves will turn to violent action against Britain and Britons. And such is the loyalty of British Muslims to Britain, that they're more likely to fight for ISIS than to fight for Britain.

Nope, as MSK says, his people is not the British people. We don't need any more of his people here.

I'm sorry but.....this is just rabid BS. I live in Leeds. We have a large Muslim population here, Muslims come from surrounding areas to work here (Bradford, Keighley, Huddersfield etc.). I know a lot of Muslims and, there are not "quite a few" who "cheer them on". They go to mosque, a number of them take their own annual leave to do charitable work. They are, in other ways, remarkably like the other human beings I live and work alongside. Who'd have thunk it, eh? That they might be like...people.

I don't see the menace you describe, it has no reality.

[Sarmatian]

See below.
This previous post

What's there to address? After the first part you agreed that the number of immigrants who become criminals is minute, which isn't something I disagree with.

In the second part you mention a few instances of the system failing. I've never argued that it was perfect, but like with all other systems, efforts should be taken to minimize the flaws, not simply shut it all down.

[Greyblades]

I'm sorry but.....this is just rabid BS. I live in Leeds. We have a large Muslim population here, Muslims come from surrounding areas to work here (Bradford, Keighley, Huddersfield etc.). I know a lot of Muslims and, there are not "quite a few" who "cheer them on". They go to mosque, a number of them take their own annual leave to do charitable work. They are, in other ways, remarkably like the other human beings I live and work alongside. Who'd have thunk it, eh? That they might be like...people.

I don't see the menace you describe, it has no reality.

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

[Sarmatian]

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

You actually wrote a post that makes sense.

With Snowhobbit educating people in law in the other thread, something bad is gonna happen tomorrow, I know it.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"I cannot see god therefore he doesnt exist."

Tell me how many of the muslims you know are poor, how many are migrants, first generation, second? How many of them have you gone out and asked if they celebrate? How many of them would answer you truthfully if they did?

I dare say all of us british orgahs have similar experiences of british muslims, most of them are integrated fine and even ones that are not are sure to put on a brave face while in public but it is fallacious in the extreme to dismiss the existance of a undercurrent of sympathy just because you personally, as an outsider looking in, have not knowingly encountered it.

I see you are shifting your argument somewhat now. Now it's only particular Muslims we need to watch or....they're lying to me. Yes, that's it. They're just very good liars. Those perfectly normal family lives, relationships we discuss.....? All just made up to cover their bomb-making and arms smuggling. Why those dirty scoundrels....why I oughta...!!

:rolleyes:

Let me remind you of what I was responding to:

"...What the Muslims demonstrate is that, unlike nearly every other immigrant community, there is no reliable process of integration for them. However well any individual or generation integrates, there is a high likelihood that somewhere along the line there will be someone who decides they are Muslims first and British nowhere, and that this justifies violence against the British people...."

"What the Muslims demonstrate"...you know like all of them, or the vast majority..."..there is no reliable process of integration for them..."

Rabid, vacuous nonsense.

[Greyblades]

I'm shifting my argument from one I have not made? Are you incapable of differentiating one speaker from another?

I was slapping you down for making a stupid argument, I dont really care what you were responding to, the fact remains the average man will rarely voice an opinion he holds that is deemed unpopular or even treasonous by society save behind closed doors. The lack of anyone openly admitting to such views withing your narrow perview does in no way make the presence of such sentiments an impossibility.


You actually wrote a post that makes sense. Little is more worrysome than the madman declaring one sane, Nor anything more releiving than a sane man turned clear.

[Husar]

17693

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

I'm shifting my argument from one I have not made? Are you incapable of differentiating one speaker from another?

I was slapping you down for making a stupid argument, I dont really care what you were responding to, the fact remains the average man will rarely voice an opinion he holds that is deemed unpopular or even treasonous by society save behind closed doors. The lack of anyone openly admitting to such views withing your narrow perview does in no way make the presence of such sentiments an impossibility.

My apologies, both to you and Pannonian. So...they're all liars? That's all you've got? I should ignore my own experience and believe the hype. All these Muslims...they're a menace, they can't be integrated ('into decent society' is the undertow dragging this argument along). I know the people I speak of. I am more extreme in my views than they are. I feel sympathy for those poor buggers being bombed out of their homes. The majority of the people in this country didn't want our government to increase their misery. They took no notice. Just as they took no notice of the marches and demonstrations against invading Iraq. They went ahead and did it anyway.

The majority of Muslims in the UK (the VAST majority) have no time for the Salafist, Wahabist 'Islam' proclaimed by ISIS..they are outright disdainful of and disgusted by it. Because these people (because that is what they are) are appalled by what is going on in 'our name' does not make them terrorist sympathisers, any more than my being appalled by what is going on in 'our name' makes me a terrorist sympathiser.

Your (and Pannonian's) references to the state of the Muslim communities in our country are wholly divergent from reality.

[Snowhobbit]

Your (and Pannonian's) references to the state of the Muslim communities in our country are wholly divergent from reality.

Are you looking into a mirror again?

[Snowhobbit]

What's there to address? After the first part you agreed that the number of immigrants who become criminals is minute, which isn't something I disagree with.

In the second part you mention a few instances of the system failing. I've never argued that it was perfect, but like with all other systems, efforts should be taken to minimize the flaws, not simply shut it all down.

Do note that the over representation after adjusting for socio-economic factors is often more than 4 times as high within the immigrant group as a whole, and that native Swedes are a minority (!) in our jails. The employement figures for refugees is that after 8 years only 25% of them are full-time employed. It puts a massive strain on an extensive welfare state like Sweden which is primarily supported by the notion that people who can work will work to help provide a good life for those who cannot work. Not for those who will not work. Add to this that a large portion of our welfare system is highly accessible even for people who are in the country illegally.

It is not a mention of "a few systems failing" it is a system nearing and in some cases jumping over the breaking point. Criminal gangs roaming on our major streets without the police being able to stop them is not a minor issue of systems failure, nor is the massive waste of tax money throughout the refugee system (for example due to there not being enough homes that the municipalities have available they have to contract private companies for 2-3x the cost if it had been done by the municipality). This is not even mentioning the extra 800,000 people who will get Malaria, TB or AIDS thanks to us cutting our foreign aid including already pledged donations to NGOs, and a further 20,000 dead from these diseases. We spend more on the processing and intake of refugees in a year than the entire UN refugee budget!

Lastly, it is common courtesy to respond to an answer to a question which you have posed.

[Husar]

The employement figures for refugees is that after 8 years only 25% of them are full-time employed. It puts a massive strain on an extensive welfare state like Sweden which is primarily supported by the notion that people who can work will work to help provide a good life for those who cannot work. Not for those who will not work.

While that is certainly a problem, it is problematic to state that they just don't want to work. It may also be that they cannot work because there are not enough jobs for them. Sweden is a small country and if you add so many people over a relatively short period of time, you cannot guarantee that the economy will just scale up and provide as many jobs. Then you may have employers who would prefer to hire Swedes and so on and you end up with a high unemployment rate among the newcomers that does not necessarily reflect their willingness to work.

Edit: Also news about Morocco. The country agreed to a new system to send Moroccan citizens back there. Around 10.000 apparently came last year, mostly among the refugees with fake Syrian passports. The acceptance rate of moroccan asylum applicants is apparently only 3.7%. They want to identify them as Moroccan citizens via their fingerprints which are saved in Morocco for biometric passports.
Source (german): http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/de-maiziere-maghreb-105.html

People are also storming the border in Macedonia, have to say it is a bit strange to say you run from a war and then pick fights with police and border guards and storm wire fences. Although it seems most of the people had just been waiting there. Apparently it was about 300 of around 7000 who stormed the border. 15 people including 9 children hurt.
Source (german): http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/griechenland-fluechtlinge-183.html

[Snowhobbit]

While that is certainly a problem, it is problematic to state that they just don't want to work. It may also be that they cannot work because there are not enough jobs for them. Sweden is a small country and if you add so many people over a relatively short period of time, you cannot guarantee that the economy will just scale up and provide as many jobs. Then you may have employers who would prefer to hire Swedes and so on and you end up with a high unemployment rate among the newcomers that does not necessarily reflect their willingness to work.

Edit: Also news about Morocco. The country agreed to a new system to send Moroccan citizens back there. Around 10.000 apparently came last year, mostly among the refugees with fake Syrian passports. The acceptance rate of moroccan asylum applicants is apparently only 3.7%. They want to identify them as Moroccan citizens via their fingerprints which are saved in Morocco for biometric passports.
Source (german): http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/de-maiziere-maghreb-105.html

With free education and a whole slew of programs (including one that will pay 80% of your salary, so your employer does not have to) there comes a point where we have to discuss the will of the people who stand outside. I do not think you qualify as a newcomer having spent the better part of a decade in the country. If you want to work you will be able to get a job in 8 years given all of the government measures which are available, from salary subsidies to start-up assistance to targetted education in order to become qualified for crafts etc. Hell we even have a program where we pay to have people sent down to Germany to learn a trade (and German). If there is a will there is a way, and "structural discrimination" simply cannot account for 75% not being full-time employed (and 50% not even working 1 hour per week).

Very welcome to see that Morocco is going to cooperate with having their citizens return! I presume this will only be for the adults, but it is better than nothing. Maybe that will also help with identifying the age of the "minors" engaging in gang criminality on the streets of our major cities.

[Sarmatian]

Do note that the over representation after adjusting for socio-economic factors is often more than 4 times as high within the immigrant group as a whole, and that native Swedes are a minority (!) in our jails. The employement figures for refugees is that after 8 years only 25% of them are full-time employed. It puts a massive strain on an extensive welfare state like Sweden which is primarily supported by the notion that people who can work will work to help provide a good life for those who cannot work. Not for those who will not work. Add to this that a large portion of our welfare system is highly accessible even for people who are in the country illegally.

There are several things to address here. Number one is that even those who work part-time do actually work and are not unemployed. I would also like to hear how they do over a longer period, 15+ years. Several years are lost until they finally settle down in one place, learn the language and, in some cases, necessary training.

Crime is generally connected with poverty rather than religion or culture. England has much more immigrants than Scotland, and much lower violent crimes rate.

[Snowhobbit]

There are several things to address here. Number one is that even those who work part-time do actually work and are not unemployed. I would also like to hear how they do over a longer period, 15+ years. Several years are lost until they finally settle down in one place, learn the language and, in some cases, necessary training.

Crime is generally connected with poverty rather than religion or culture. England has much more immigrants than Scotland, and much lower violent crimes rate.

I'm not sure if there are studies for even longer periods of time, there are general employment numbers for foreigners and natives respectively (but then that would include work migrants etc, though half of those are unemployed after a few years too, it is an easy way to buy a visa). I'm not sure that I would count 1 hour a week as working to be honest. It does not count as working for EU perspectives, unless you are charging massively for that one hour. I'm curious as to how many years you think it takes to "settle down in one place" and what you mean by that. I interpret it as making a home, but maybe you mean something different? Again 8 years allow for a long time to learn the language (which should only take 1 year to learn enough to work, or 2 to learn enough to study at university) and possibly get some training. A large factor in the massive unemployment numbers is the fact that a lot of our refugees come from countries in which women are not allowed to work outside of the home.

Do you not understand what it means to account for socioeconomic factors?

[Husar]

With free education and a whole slew of programs (including one that will pay 80% of your salary, so your employer does not have to) there comes a point where we have to discuss the will of the people who stand outside. I do not think you qualify as a newcomer having spent the better part of a decade in the country. If you want to work you will be able to get a job in 8 years given all of the government measures which are available, from salary subsidies to start-up assistance to targetted education in order to become qualified for crafts etc. Hell we even have a program where we pay to have people sent down to Germany to learn a trade (and German). If there is a will there is a way, and "structural discrimination" simply cannot account for 75% not being full-time employed (and 50% not even working 1 hour per week).

You forgot the first point which is that companies may simply not have work for even more people at this point. There are apparently countries where the companies just hire people they don't need to give more people jobs for reasons I'm not aware of. But that's not something we do here in Capitalistan because it costs money we might as well save for the stakeholders. Why give money to a poor person if you could also make a rich person even happier?

[Snowhobbit]

You forgot the first point which is that companies may simply not have work for even more people at this point. There are apparently countries where the companies just hire people they don't need to give more people jobs for reasons I'm not aware of. But that's not something we do here in Capitalistan because it costs money we might as well save for the stakeholders. Why give money to a poor person if you could also make a rich person even happier?

Our companies are crying out for labour and more qualified workers. Sweden is not in a recession and our economy is growing. We are importing a whole lot of workers from India, China as well as of course our European neighbours. It is far from impossible to get a job in 8 years, in fact I'd say it is impossible to get a job if you try for 8 years. At some point you have to stop blaming everyone else and look at what you as an individual are doing (or not doing).

[Sarmatian]

I'm not sure if there are studies for even longer periods of time, there are general employment numbers for foreigners and natives respectively (but then that would include work migrants etc, though half of those are unemployed after a few years too, it is an easy way to buy a visa). I'm not sure that I would count 1 hour a week as working to be honest. It does not count as working for EU perspectives, unless you are charging massively for that one hour. I'm curious as to how many years you think it takes to "settle down in one place" and what you mean by that. I interpret it as making a home, but maybe you mean something different? Again 8 years allow for a long time to learn the language (which should only take 1 year to learn enough to work, or 2 to learn enough to study at university) and possibly get some training. A large factor in the massive unemployment numbers is the fact that a lot of our refugees come from countries in which women are not allowed to work outside of the home.

Do you not understand what it means to account for socioeconomic factors?

Part time doesn't mean 1 hour a week. It is generally considered up to 20 hours a week, half a work day, but it differs from country to country. In some workers who work more than 40 hours a week are considered part time if they are seasonal workers, for instance if they work during the tourist season.

Secondly, immigrants are more likely to be victims of exploitation by the unscrupulous employers, because they aren't aware of the regulations, they are desperate for any income or simply don't know who to turn to or they are simply afraid the employers word would be taken over theirs and they would be sent back. It is not uncommon for migrants to work more than 40 hours a week, while they employer pays benefits only for 20, or even less, or none at all. Furthermore, in some countries (I'm not sure how it works in Sweden), if they work 2 jobs part time for the full 40 hour work week, they are still considered to work only part time,

Thirdly, lumping all immigrants together is paints a flawed picture. Let's say a family moves to a country, and they have a 3 year old kid. Both parents start learning the language, which takes at least 6 months, year on average. After that, the father gets a job but he can only apply for a limited number of jobs, as his understanding of the language is not sufficient for complex conversations. So, he gets a job as an assistant in the kitchen somewhere, or a bus boy or something like. It takes longer for the mother to learn the language so she has trouble finding a job. She manages to earn some money by cleaning private houses, which isn't registered anywhere so she is till officially unemployed.
After two years, their command of the native language is excellent, the father gets a full time job, but the mother is pregnant again.
So, after five years or so, you have only one person out of three working a full time job, and only for three years of those five, but it is perfectly normal conditions. If a family of five moves, with children aged 2, 3 and 5 years respectively, where the father works full time, mother part time and the three children are in school, the statistics would tell you that only 20% of them are working full time for the next 15 years or so, while those are again perfectly normal living conditions, not different compared to native families in similar conditions.

That is why I said 8 years is too short a time to get the full picture.

[Snowhobbit]

Part time doesn't mean 1 hour a week. It is generally considered up to 20 hours a week, half a work day, but it differs from country to country. In some workers who work more than 40 hours a week are considered part time if they are seasonal workers, for instance if they work during the tourist season.

Secondly, immigrants are more likely to be victims of exploitation by the unscrupulous employers, because they aren't aware of the regulations, they are desperate for any income or simply don't know who to turn to or they are simply afraid the employers word would be taken over theirs and they would be sent back. It is not uncommon for migrants to work more than 40 hours a week, while they employer pays benefits only for 20, or even less, or none at all. Furthermore, in some countries (I'm not sure how it works in Sweden), if they work 2 jobs part time for the full 40 hour work week, they are still considered to work only part time,

Thirdly, lumping all immigrants together is paints a flawed picture. Let's say a family moves to a country, and they have a 3 year old kid. Both parents start learning the language, which takes at least 6 months, year on average. After that, the father gets a job but he can only apply for a limited number of jobs, as his understanding of the language is not sufficient for complex conversations. So, he gets a job as an assistant in the kitchen somewhere, or a bus boy or something like. It takes longer for the mother to learn the language so she has trouble finding a job. She manages to earn some money by cleaning private houses, which isn't registered anywhere so she is till officially unemployed.
After two years, their command of the native language is excellent, the father gets a full time job, but the mother is pregnant again.
So, after five years or so, you have only one person out of three working a full time job, and only for three years of those five, but it is perfectly normal conditions. If a family of five moves, with children aged 2, 3 and 5 years respectively, where the father works full time, mother part time and the three children are in school, the statistics would tell you that only 20% of them are working full time for the next 15 years or so, while those are again perfectly normal living conditions, not different compared to native families in similar conditions.

That is why I said 8 years is too short a time to get the full picture.

For the purpose of counting as employed 1 hour a week is sufficient. Which is why I mention it, because that is how the stats are tracked, and people think it means more than it does. We do not have a huge issue with workers being exploited due to strong unions and labour laws, maybe things are different in your country? In comparison natives in the age group 18-67 69%are full time employed, this number is consistent, for refugees it reaches an amazing 34% after 15 years. 8 years is a long time, let alone 15 years. You might want to look more at the numbers if you think a three children, mother and father is the typical group either. If you have a way of doing statistics without bunching people up into groups I'm all ears. Surprisingly we do not count children in the employment statistics...

I hate to ask again, do you not know what socioeconomic factors means?

[Sarmatian]

For the purpose of counting as employed 1 hour a week is sufficient. Which is why I mention it, because that is how the stats are tracked, and people think it means more than it does.

That is disingenuous. You mention 25% working full time. People working 1 hour a week are not working full time. Thus, you eliminate a significant number of immigrants working part time. Instead of calling you a liar, I'll assume you made an honest mistake and mixed some numbers up.


We do not have a huge issue with workers being exploited due to strong unions and labour laws, maybe things are different in your country?

Migrants are always exploited, especially in the first few years while they are still "getting their bearings". Less in Sweden than some other countries but it happens and much more than you think. There almost isn't a person from former Yugoslavia who didn't have to work some shitty job, with long hours and lousy pay, in the grey part of the economy for a few years after arriving in Sweden.


Surprisingly we do not count children in the employment statistics...

But you count them among migrants.


In comparison natives in the age group 18-67 69%are full time employed, this number is consistent, for refugees it reaches an amazing 34% after 15 years. 8 years is a long time, let alone 15 years. You might want to look more at the numbers if you think a three children, mother and father is the typical group either. If you have a way of doing statistics without bunching people up into groups I'm all ears.

Again, you're counting all migrants and only working age natives. There are currently 4,8 million workers in Sweden out of a population of 9,8 million, which comes to about 49% employment overall. Again, I'm not going to call you a liar, I'll assume you made an honest mistake and mixed some numbers up.

A kid aged 7 will just be graduating from a university after 15 years.


I hate to ask again, do you not know what socioeconomic factors means?

I read it the first time and it was a stupid question the first time. I've extended you the courtesy of engaging in a serious discussion with you. Be a smart ass somewhere else, or with someone else.

[Snowhobbit]

That is disingenuous. You mention 25% working full time. People working 1 hour a week are not working full time. Thus, you eliminate a significant number of immigrants working part time. Instead of calling you a liar, I'll assume you made an honest mistake and mixed some numbers up.



Migrants are always exploited, especially in the first few years while they are still "getting their bearings". Less in Sweden than some other countries but it happens and much more than you think. There almost isn't a person from former Yugoslavia who didn't have to work some shitty job, with long hours and lousy pay, in the grey part of the economy for a few years after arriving in Sweden.



But you count them among migrants.



Again, you're counting all migrants and only working age natives. There are currently 4,8 million workers in Sweden out of a population of 9,8 million, which comes to about 49% employment overall. Again, I'm not going to call you a liar, I'll assume you made an honest mistake and mixed some numbers up.

A kid aged 7 will just be graduating from a university after 15 years.



I read it the first time and it was a stupid question the first time. I've extended you the courtesy of engaging in a serious discussion with you. Be a smart ass somewhere else, or with someone else.

To clarify, a number that gets flung around a lot is that 50%are employed after 7 years. In fact to qualify as employed 1 hour worked on the week that the survey is done is enough to qualify as employed. Hence full time is a more useful metric. All of the numbers are only counting working age people, none of the numbers are counting children. I hope the above will help prevent any unclarity or misunderstanding. A large part of my friend circle and my family are immigrants, and a significant part of my colleagues have been immigrants, yet other than the exploitation of berry pickers there really aren't much of an issue.

The study about criminality accounts for socioeconomic factors which is why I ask if you do not understand the word since you keep bringing up poverty. Not sure why poor people would rape and murder more often in a welfare society where they will still have by most standards a good life. And such factors are accounted for. Bringing up poverty when that has been accounted for seems to me to be the stupid thing to do.

[Husar]

To clarify, a number that gets flung around a lot is that 50%are employed after 7 years. In fact to qualify as employed 1 hour worked on the week that the survey is done is enough to qualify as employed. Hence full time is a more useful metric.

But the assumption that all or even most of the part-time workers only work one hour and should therefore be excluded entirely seems strange.

[Snowhobbit]

But the assumption that all or even most of the part-time workers only work one hour and should therefore be excluded entirely seems strange.

The point is that since that data includes anyone from full time to one hour that one week that they asked, the data is useless. I should also clarify that this data includes people on the salary support systems where the government pays 80% of your salary, while the 25% after 8 years is not only full-time but also excludes jobs where the government is paying your salary in this manner. If data can be found that includes reasonable part-time workers that would be great. But do note that full time working age only compares with full time working age people.

[Snowhobbit]

As a side-note to highlight the issue, after 5 years 91% of refugee women are unemployed, using the more generous measure of employment where even 1 hour that week that is tax financed to 80%.

What are the employment figures for Germany comparing refugees to natives?

[Gilrandir]

It takes longer for the mother to learn the language

Sexism.

[Fragony]

Ain't that great, seperate centres for gays and christians in Dutchiestan. It isn't such a nice place for them. I wonder why.

edit, it's even worse than I thought. Sorry gays and christians, it's all a lie it wasn't me

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sexism.

Age-ism if anything. Children under 25 with brains still in development mode acquire new languages more readily.

[Gilrandir]

Age-ism if anything. Children under 25 with brains still in development mode acquire new languages more readily.

The so-called sensitive period (most suitable for acquiring a language, including a foreign one) lasts till the age of 12, for acquiring the phonetics of a language till 6.

[Fragony]

The so-called sensitive period (most suitable for acquiring a language, including a foreign one) lasts till the age of 12, for acquiring the phonetics of a language till 6.

Not entirely true, don't ask me why but toddlers can already hear the difference between languages with international couples, they somehow just know that it are different languages and they learn both seperatily.

[Fragony]

Quote of the day by the childless Mutti 'that is not my Europe'

No Mutti Theresa, it isn't

[Fragony]

More like once a stasi always a stasi, she had little trouble betraying her best friends. There are much more disturbing things about her, she wants to prove that 'Germany has changed since the nazi's', other interview. A guilt ridden childless women who wants to adopt the entire middle east, hmmmmmm. Her eyes are empty, her smile is dumb. And yes before someone asks I do have a degree in psycholigy.

[Fragony]

She is simply a tyrant in the other direction. The continent lends itself to them. Putins one redeeming quality is how he bullies her.

Don't need Putin for that, no European nation takes Germany serious anymore, the childless mutti should have gotten a chihuaha and some peanut-butter

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The so-called sensitive period (most suitable for acquiring a language, including a foreign one) lasts till the age of 12, for acquiring the phonetics of a language till 6.

Quite true, though individuals vary. My 'children under 25' line reflected that a) brains continue to mature into the mid 20s, and b) that I am an old fart who looks at under 25s as vexing young whippersnappers.

[Husar]

Polish economic migrant from Brussels says: "Don't go to other countries for the money!"

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/Europe-EU-Donald-Tusk-warns-refugees-160303135255252

[Fragony]

OH THE IRONY

[Husar]

OH THE IRONY

Memba this?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/25/germany.kateconnolly


Unlike in Germany, there are jobs aplenty in Switzerland - and the Swiss pay up to a third more, taxes are lower and the social welfare system is better than Germany's.

Swiss chat shows and documentaries have also taken up the call, 'Germans are taking away our jobs', while some newspapers are even running regular anti-German stories with such headlines as 'A German stole my girlfriend'.
[...]
But German Anja Grob, 47, who works in Basle, said the thick-skinned Germans were unlikely to stop coming. Switzerland's neutrality, she believed, was the biggest pull: 'A country that has not been at war for centuries is really something that Germans admire greatly.'

[Gilrandir]

Not entirely true, don't ask me why but toddlers can already hear the difference between languages with international couples, they somehow just know that it are different languages and they learn both seperatily.

I spoke not of the ability to differentiate between languages, but about the ability to acquire language(s). If a child of a sensitive age acquires more than one language, they "are located" in the same brain area. A person past the sensitive age has "to create" a different locus for every new language.

As for an infant's ability to differentiate between languages, I wouldn't make such a bold statement. I would rather say that a child switches from one language to another depending on which of the parents he is talking to. I myself talk to my mother mostly in Ukrainian and to my father mostly in Russian.

If a child is addressed to by one parent, but in different languages he is likely to lump the languages together. I witnessed it when I saw one of my colleague's daughter whom she was trying to teach English from the earliest age possible (that is besides her mother tongue). As a result the child used English word roots in combination with Russian suffixes.

[Fragony]

Memba this?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/25/germany.kateconnolly

but but but... that changes everything! Suddenly there is no more an uncontrollable influx of people there simply is no future for. It's better if they know that prior to trying, for everybody.

[Husar]

but but but... that changes everything! Suddenly there is no more an uncontrollable influx of people there simply is no future for. It's better if they know that prior to trying, for everybody.

Why can every country on earth have people with no future but we can't?

[Fragony]

Why can every country on earth have people with no future but we can't?

Because we could but won't? Isn't it a bit cruel to give false hope in the end. We both know that it was a bad idea comming here, everything they once had is useless here, a Syrian brain-surgeon who lost everything is still going to be sleeping in one of the hundreds of beds in a gym. All we can do is mob it up and throw it in a bucket in the end, we can't provide what they think we can.

[Greyblades]

...really? Is the syrian standards of of brain surgery outdated or something?

[Husar]

Because we could but won't? Isn't it a bit cruel to give false hope in the end.

What false hope? If they actually flee from a war we offer them a chance to get a life here. I'm not aware anyone from here offered them much more.


We both know that it was a bad idea comming here, everything they once had is useless here, a Syrian brain-surgeon who lost everything is still going to be sleeping in one of the hundreds of beds in a gym. All we can do is mob it up and throw it in a bucket in the end, we can't provide what they think we can.

Now you're confusing what is achievable in the short term and what is achievable in the long term. A brain surgeon can get a job here in the long term. Other people can't, there was a story of an Afghan who hoped to get a better job here but was disappointed and left again. The German government now pays the Afghan government to advertise their own country so fewer people come here. The thing is that when people have no hope in their own country, they usually look elsewhere, it is not new and merely human nature, nothing we can do.

[Fragony]

Of course people have always looked for better places, but the current situation is different, they come here en-masse because the childless mutti invited them here. There is no precedent to this. The brain-surgeon was sarcasm most migrants have little to no education at al. Almost all young men who have no hope of getting a job or a woman, bound to get frustrated. That's the long-term

[Snowhobbit]

...really? Is the syrian standards of of brain surgery outdated or something?

No, but the German bureaucracy is overworked beyond reason, and before you get to do brain surgery you probably have to verify your education and experience etc. I would guess it takes 2-3 years until he is anywhere close to where he would want to be.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Of course people have always looked for better places, but the current situation is different, they come here en-masse because the childless mutti invited them here. There is no precedent to this. The brain-surgeon was sarcasm most migrants have little to no education at al. Almost all young men who have no hope of getting a job or a woman, bound to get frustrated. That's the long-term

You don't think that the movement "en-masse" has rather more to do with the places they used to live being bombed into oblivion? You understand that whatever Merkel said, that leads to you referring to her with such misogynistic flourish, was a reaction to a situation of the movements of people en-masse....so they were already moving.

[Shaka_Khan]

Why is it the EUs responsibility help the migrants?
The EU didn't tell them to come. The migrants chose the EU because the European OECD countries are the closest OECD countries.

[Fragony]

You don't think that the movement "en-masse" has rather more to do with the places they used to live being bombed into oblivion? You understand that whatever Merkel said, that leads to you referring to her with such misogynistic flourish, was a reaction to a situation of the movements of people en-masse....so they were already moving.

I understand what she said in another interview, she wants to show the world that Germany has changed and have learned from itls nazi-past, she is insane and is dragging Europe into her maelström of insanity. Any psycholigist would agree that it is very relevant that she's barren, and that she has a messias-complex. The only place she ought to be is in a padded cell strapped itn a selfhugsuit.

[Beskar]

I saw this and thought of you, Frags.
https://i.imgur.com/eaAba87.jpg

[Greyblades]

That is surprisingly apt.

[Snowhobbit]

You don't think that the movement "en-masse" has rather more to do with the places they used to live being bombed into oblivion? You understand that whatever Merkel said, that leads to you referring to her with such misogynistic flourish, was a reaction to a situation of the movements of people en-masse....so they were already moving.

Neither Africa nor Pakistan is being bombed "en-masse", and though Turkey has had an increase in terror bombings to my knowledge they have not targeted refugee camps. But I know you don't like facts, so don't worry too much.

[Fragony]

lol http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/02duitsland.jpg

[Sir Moody]

Neither Africa nor Pakistan is being bombed "en-masse", and though Turkey has had an increase in terror bombings to my knowledge they have not targeted refugee camps. But I know you don't like facts, so don't worry too much.

... what

This spectacular display of ignorance forced me out of self imposed lurking.

There are currently 2 Major conflicts raging in North Africa (the South Sudan Civil war and the Boko Harem insurgency) and numerous smaller conflicts including the ever worsening situation in Libya and the Somali civil war which has been on and off again since 1991).

On the Pakistan front there is open fighting with the Taliban and constant US drone bombing along with an increase in repression of Pakistan's Christian minority (including several death sentences for "heresy" and numerous cases of lynchings)

Honestly he is entirely right - what the German Government did was neither here no there - the refugees were already on the move and en-route - Germany was left with only had 2 choices, welcome them or close the borders.

The current situation on the Greek/Serbian border should show how option 2 was never a good plan.

[Snowhobbit]

... what

This spectacular display of ignorance forced me out of self imposed lurking.

There are currently 2 Major conflicts raging in North Africa (the South Sudan Civil war and the Boko Harem insurgency) and numerous smaller conflicts including the ever worsening situation in Libya and the Somali civil war which has been on and off again since 1991).

On the Pakistan front there is open fighting with the Taliban and constant US drone bombing along with an increase in repression of Pakistan's Christian minority (including several death sentences for "heresy" and numerous cases of lynchings)

Honestly he is entirely right - what the German Government did was neither here no there - the refugees were already on the move and en-route - Germany was left with only had 2 choices, welcome them or close the borders.

The current situation on the Greek/Serbian border should show how option 2 was never a good plan.

Oh yes, I forgot how the drones are carpetbombing cities which causes the population to have to flee all the way to Europe. The Somali civil war only affects half the country and the people in the unsafe half can then easily travel to the safe half. Did you know that India recently due to community rioting had over 2 million citizens being internally displaced refugees? How many of those fled to Europe again?
And do go on explaining how those conflicts result in people fleeing from Eritrea, Ethiopia etc. A large quantity of the people trying to enter Europe are opportunistic fortune seekers. Which is not an inherently bad thing, but lets not label them as refugees and spend all of our money babying them while we leave the actual refugee camps underfunded.

[Sir Moody]

Oh yes, I forgot how the drones are carpetbombing cities which causes the population to have to flee all the way to Europe. The Somali civil war only affects half the country and the people in the unsafe half can then easily travel to the safe half. Did you know that India recently due to community rioting had over 2 million citizens being internally displaced refugees? How many of those fled to Europe again?
And do go on explaining how those conflicts result in people fleeing from Eritrea, Ethiopia etc. A large quantity of the people trying to enter Europe are opportunistic fortune seekers. Which is not an inherently bad thing, but lets not label them as refugees and spend all of our money babying them while we leave the actual refugee camps underfunded.

While I don't know of any current problems in Eritrea, Ethiopia has suffered a massive drought and there are heightened fears there will be another mass starvation event.

Just because you don't know about a conflict/crisis or deem it "insignificant" doesn't mean there are not people fleeing for their lives - don't belittle them.

[Snowhobbit]

While I don't know of any current problems in Eritrea, Ethiopia has suffered a massive drought and there are heightened fears there will be another mass starvation event.

Just because you don't know about a conflict/crisis or deem it "insignificant" doesn't mean there are not people fleeing for their lives - don't belittle them.

So which bomb campaign caused the drought? And is a suitable response to a drought to flee across thousands of miles and a sea? Or are there more sane solutions to that problem?

I don't see you lining up to house refugees and finance their upkeep. Calling a spade a spade is not belittling.

[Fragony]

Just because you don't know about a conflict/crisis or deem it "insignificant" doesn't mean there are not people fleeing for their lives - don't belittle them.

They may have a good reason to run for their lifes, but not to travel any further once they are safe. Why shouldn't we call those that do fortune-seekers? Aid for direct releave is pretty managable to give.

Elaborating, we all know that Europe produces too much and dumps it in Africa, it keeps them poor as they can't compete with free goods. So use development-money to buy the surplus up instead and just give it to them. No more reason to take a very dangerous trip to a future that does not exist.
Would also benefit the locals as the migrants won't have to pay the rediculous prices human-smugglers ask. Aid done different and more effective imho.

[Snowhobbit]

They may have a good reason to run for their lifes, but not to travel any further once they are safe. Why shouldn't we call those that do fortune-seekers? Aid for direct releave is pretty managable to give.

Elaborating, we all know that Europe produces too much and dumps it in Africa, it keeps them poor as they can't compete with free goods. So use development-money to buy the surplus up instead and just give it to them. No more reason to take a very dangerous trip to a future that does not exist.
Would also benefit the locals as the migrants won't have to pay the rediculous prices human-smugglers ask. Aid done different and more effective imho.

Doing aid in that way would ensure that any industry involved in the production or sales of the goods given away would collapse, resulting in more poverty. It is a great way to make sure that more people find that the best option in their mind is to risk their lives "fleeing" to a richer country. Not sure that is what you would like to happen.

[Fragony]

Doing aid in that way would ensure that any industry involved in the production or sales of the goods given away would collapse, resulting in more poverty. It is a great way to make sure that more people find that the best option in their mind is to risk their lives "fleeing" to a richer country. Not sure that is what you would like to happen.

You are probably right, I got no argument against that. But if we do it that way AND make trying to get to Europe a worse option it might be a win-win situation. Naturally not for everybody. It's a musing, not an argument to just give direct aid with surplusses. Of course it will only hurt on the long-term and isn't a solution at all. But it's at least more pragmatic imho

[Snowhobbit]

You are probably right, I got no argument against that. But if we do it that way AND make trying to get to Europe a worse option it might be a win-win situation. Naturally not for everybody. It's a musing, not an argument to just give direct aid with surplusses. Of course it will only hurt on the long-term and isn't a solution at all. But it's at least more pragmatic imho

A better way would be to send food aid only in the case of famines, and otherwise try to keep to digging wells, building schools etc. Provide money and assistance to good governance NGOs. The only long term solution is to help the regions filled with poverty to grow out of that poverty. Your solution is a short term destruction of their economies and long term a flood of refugees and economics migrants on a scale hardly imaginable. At which point we will either see violence on a horrific scale to "defend the borders" or the slow death of Europe as we know it. Now me I think that sounds like a bad future and not something we should work towards.

[Fragony]

A better way would be to send food aid only in the case of famines, and otherwise try to keep to digging wells, building schools etc. Provide money and assistance to good governance NGOs. The only long term solution is to help the regions filled with poverty to grow out of that poverty. Your solution is a short term destruction of their economies and long term a flood of refugees and economics migrants on a scale hardly imaginable. At which point we will either see violence on a horrific scale to "defend the borders" or the slow death of Europe as we know it. Now me I think that sounds like a bad future and not something we should work towards.

I don't even disagree with you but first things first, a total lockdown of European borders, and giving aid to those affected by regional problems. I find it kinda silly that we are making deals with Turkey the problems there don't belong in our sphere, it's their region not ours, we can help but it's not our problem. Same for Africa, not our sphere either, nor our obligation. Helping in the short term is good enough for now imho. Emergency supplies, medicine, food. Long-term is a much bigger question that can be asked, but why ask it really, it's not our mess. We would have to become some sort of creepy light jedi's to fix it all.

[Husar]

EU and Turkey reach an agreement!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35840272


Under the plan, from midnight Sunday migrants arriving in Greece will be sent back to Turkey if their asylum claim is rejected.
In return, EU countries will resettle Syrian migrants living in Turkey.

Does anyone want to place bets how long it will take until Turkey distributes Syrian passports to the people we send back? ~;)

[Snowhobbit]

EU and Turkey reach an agreement!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35840272



Does anyone want to place bets how long it will take until Turkey distributes Syrian passports to the people we send back? ~;)

Using the ISIS printing press I presume?

[Fragony]

Everybody with half a braincell can understand why this isn't a deal at all. We don't know how they got into Greece so Turkey won't take them back. It's a joke.

[Beskar]

Syrians have teleport technology funded by Russian scientists, so Bashar can send dissents enmass to the sunny beaches of Greece.

[Lizardo]

They are not Refugees just country shoppers looking for the best welfare package on offer. The real refugees are the Yazidis and Religious Minorities etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTDlY4o23XA

[Gilrandir]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTDlY4o23XA

It would be good if someone wondered who Starikov is and what the grounds are for calling him a "top Russian writer".

[Lizardo]

OH your from Ukraine and may have lapped up the Anti Russian Propaganda. Your statement doesnt make sense who wonders ok if it's you search him up yourself hes a prominent political analyst in Russia featured in many programmes and Debates. Who cares who he is what he states is near enough spot on barring a couple of discretions i think.

[Gilrandir]

OH your from Ukraine and may have lapped up the Anti Russian Propaganda.

Oh, I don't know where you are from, yet I marvel that you deem yourself free from the influence of any other propaganda, including the pro-russian one.



Your statement doesnt make sense who wonders ok if it's you search him up yourself hes a prominent political analyst in Russia featured in many programmes and Debates. Who cares who he is what he states is near enough spot on barring a couple of discretions i think.

Who/what a person is always has a bearing on what he says and thinks. Being exposed to Russian media I know enough of him and could have linked to some articles by him and about him, but unfortunately they are all in Russian. His political stance can be summarized by the title of his 2008 book: "Russia's archenemy: All evil comes from the West". He attributes all problems Russia has or had to constant and unceasing attempts of the West to destroy it. He is one of the main apologists of current Russian regime and of some of the previous ones - including Stalin. He propagates his stance at all programmes and debates. But if you are inclined to harken to him, well, :shrug:

[Lizardo]

Ok yes its good to know the person in contrary to you citation of the book Russia arch enemy entitles to me to envoke dont judge the book by its cover in the antrhopomorthic sense as well. So you like to attack the personality not the message, Ok and russian Regime haa like the undemocratic Coup in money pit Ukraine run by neo nazis and EU shills. And Defense of Stalin in what context and regard?? I think he was harkening to the idea that Russia shouldn't repent for its past if that is so thats abhorrent to you. At first you claimed to know nothing of the individual.
In this article the title below explains it properly he defends stalin in his statements and the creation of stalins gold ruble after the fall of soviet union it was scrapped and that it sacrificed the separate autonomous economic system it had created, thus submitting both itself in particular, and the world in general, to dollar hegemony, which resulted in terrible consequences that continue to this day. Starikov on Why Stalin Was Right and How to Escape the Tyranny of the Western Financial System (http://russia-insider.com/en/history/nikolai-starikov-and-problem-history/ri10734)

http://russia-insider.com/en/history/nikolai-starikov-and-problem-history/ri10734

I wouldn't say hes the top russian writer i think you know what advertisng and sensationalism does to draw visitors right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd1_o9pyehE

[Gilrandir]

The import of your post is diffilult to trace. I will answer the parts that are intelligible.


Ok yes its good to know the person in contrary to you citation of the book Russia arch enemy entitles to me to envoke dont judge the book by its cover in the antrhopomorthic sense as well.


I don't judge a book, I shape my opinion of the writer looking through the list of books he wrote:

2006: Who killed Russian empire? The major mystery of XX century (2008 edition "1917. Not a revolution, but a special operation.")
2006: Myths and thruth about Civil war. Who finished off Russia?
2007: Betrayed Russia. Our "allies" from Boris Godunov to Nikolai II (2008 edition "Russia's archenemy: All evil comes from the West".)
2008: Who forced Hitler to attack Stalin.
2009: Crisis. How it is created.
2010: Who finances the destruction of Russia? From decembrists to mudjahids.
2010: It takes a war to save dollar.
2012: Stalin: let's remember him together.
2014: Ukraine. Chaos and revolution as the weapons of dollar.
2014: Russia. Crimea. History.

The author is an apologist of the idea that all the world is in conspiracy against Russia and is trying to destroy it by hook or by crook. And he remembers Stalin kindly.



So you like to attack the personality not the message,

I don't think much of the messages spread by the personality who wrote such books.



Ok and russian Regime haa like the undemocratic Coup in money pit Ukraine run by neo nazis and EU shills.


... which shows that you are totally free from pro-Russian propaganda and vision of the events in Ukraine.



I think he was harkening to the idea that Russia shouldn't repent for its past if that is so thats abhorrent to you.


I don't like the idea of repenting and apologizing for the past events. The past is full of horrors of all kinds and if we start doing that we must dig out all the grievances, even the minute ones, and try to make all the world around feel sorry. It will end in a deluge of claims for apology and still more grievances if someone refuses to apologize. Moreover, those who apologize (like modern Germany for nazism or the pope for the Crusades) have nothing to do with the past events.

So I don't think Russia should repent or apologize. But modern Russia goes even further: it refuses even to admit the evils done or tries to whitewash or justify them. This is unacceptable.



At first you claimed to know nothing of the individual.


Show me where I did.




I wouldn't say hes the top russian writer i think you know what advertisng and sensationalism does to draw visitors right?


But he is still a prominent political analyst, right? :laugh4:

[Lizardo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5znMCEWBasA

BBC Radio Drama Gave Tips For Illegal Migrants In Somalia (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03/27/bbc-broadcast-radio-drama-in-somalia-giving-tips-for-illegal-migrants/)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I_5Ww5T29bs

[Snowhobbit]

Objected.

[Fragony]

Wäy tø gø Sweden http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-31/here-s-how-the-refugee-crisis-may-reshape-sweden-s-social-model

Whät the føk it cøsts møney we døn't häve, there ären't äny høuses

[Lizardo]

In Sweden now the male to female ratio is higher than the 30 years of the one child policy in China. 123 boys for every 100 girls

[Fragony]

In Sweden now the male to female ratio is higher than the 30 years of the one child policy in China. 123 boys for every 100 girls

Sweden has some bigger problems then the ratio of men and women, bigger problem is the attitude towards women of those they hauled in. Rape is rampant in Sweden, only South-Africa is worse.

[Lizardo]

Yes I know about the location of the rape capital of the world right now, the ratio of men to women has some major consequences. They will not assimilate just like the majority of muslims before them what you will have is a bicultural country that will explode. But the article you posted confirmed my thoughts that only the rich benefit from mass immigration they now want to lower the minimum wage!! The idea that the socialist state benefits from mass immigration of uneducated illiterate men is wrong if they even do work they will have menial jobs not enough to supply the tax base for the welfare state.

[Fragony]

Not only that but renting a house is going to become much more expensive, housing-market in Sweden is highly regulated, but they are going to let that go as well. There aren't nearly enough houses so prices will obviously rise dramatically. Bend over vikings, don't say nobody warned you

[Snowhobbit]

In Sweden now the male to female ratio is higher than the 30 years of the one child policy in China. 123 boys for every 100 girls

Sweden does not solely consist of the teenager age-bracket.

[Lizardo]

I know you are allergic to reality but do you have to flaunt it? Sweden does not solely consist of the teenager age-bracket, in spite of what you hallucinate.
What are you talking about i meant Male to Female ratio overall not just children sorry i shuldn't of said boys and girls. 123 males to a 100 females. Consequences of the influx of military aged muslim males into the country of sweden. I'm going to turn the other cheek, but if your language carries on towards me i think we're going to have to settle this via a battle of Total War, do you accept?

[Snowhobbit]

What are you talking about i meant Male to Female ratio overall not just children sorry i shuldn't of said boys and girls. 123 males to a 100 females. Consequences of the influx of military aged muslim males into the country of sweden. I'm going to turn the other cheek, but if your language carries on towards me i think we're going to have to settle this via a battle of Total War, do you accept?

Again your numbers are made up and confused with the numbers of certain specific age brackets.

[snipped]

[Lizardo]

Again your numbers are made up and confused with the numbers of certain specific age brackets.

[snipped]

My numbers are not confused look COLD HARD EVIDENCE
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35444173
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-11/european-migrant-crisis-triggers-gender-imbalance/7076924

What do you think happens to the population of sweden when the immigrants marching to your country are 77% percent males.

[Snowhobbit]

[snipped]

My numbers are not confused look COLD HARD EVIDENCE
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35444173
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-11/european-migrant-crisis-triggers-gender-imbalance/7076924

What do you think happens to the population of sweden when the immigrants marching to your country are 77% percent males.

Words, do you read them? Try reading the bold words in the first link. What do you think happens with a country where the people cannot do basic statistics and maths?

[Fragony]

Words, do you read them? Try reading the bold words in the first link. What do you think happens with a country where the people cannot do basic statistics and maths?

I wouldn't ask for statistics if I were you because they aren't really nice. You say Lizardo threatened you but you also said that I did that I wanted to beat you to death, and I have done no such thing. You are free to post where I did you have my explicit permission to do so. Since I have never send you a pm it should be somewhere in the public forum.

[Snowhobbit]

I wouldn't ask for statistics if I were you because they aren't really nice. You say Lizardo threatened you but you also said that I did that I wanted to beat you to death, and I have done no such thing. You are free to post where I did you have my explicit permission to do so. Since I have never send you a pm it should be somewhere in the public forum.

[snip]

When people throw out numbers that are false and lie about them is a very good time to ask them to provide actual numbers and statistics.

[Beskar]

[snip]

This is off-topic is viewable in the Watchtower since Snowhobbit posted it there.

[Snowhobbit]

So can we conclusively state that lizardpeople either do not understand numbers, statistics or the concept of human beings aging?

[Fragony]

When was the last time a chancellor censors poetry, must have been around ahyougetit http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=238&nID=97301&NewsCatID=351

What's next, burning books about what happened in Armenia

invitation to read the poem here 3 2 1

[Snowhobbit]

When was the last time a chancellor censors poetry, must have been around ahyougetit http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=238&nID=97301&NewsCatID=351

What's next, burning books about what happened in Armenia

invitation to read the poem here 3 2 1
I've not really delved into this whole thing, but slander is illegal in a lot of places, not just those ruled by Nazis.

[Fragony]

I've not really delved into this whole thing, but slander is illegal in a lot of places, not just those ruled by Nazis.

That's for the judge to decide

[Snowhobbit]

That's for the judge to decide

It is indeed. I could only find that she had condemned the satire, not that she had personally banned it. Are politicians forbidden from commenting on crimes in the Netherlands?

[Fragony]

It is indeed. I could only find that she had condemned the satire, not that she had personally banned it. Are politicians forbidden from commenting on crimes in the Netherlands?

What crime, satire isn't a crime. I can understand why the childless mutti and sultan Erdogan get along so well, both completily humourless.

[Snowhobbit]

What crime, satire isn't a crime. I can understand why the childless mutti and sultan Erdogan get along so well, both completily humourless.

Satire isn't a crime but slander is. She has the view that it is slander, and criticizes it for that reason.

[Fragony]

Satire isn't a crime but slander is. She has the view that it is slander, and criticizes it for that reason.

Not for her to decide what is slander and what's not, missed the part 'stressed to be removed'? She crossed the line, badly.

[Snowhobbit]

Not for her to decide what is slander and what's not, missed the part 'stressed to be removed'? She crossed the line, badly.

It is not for politicians to decide what is a crime or not, that did not stop a whole lot of people commenting on the Cologne event though.

Upon actually reading what you think you've quoted...

"According to Seibert, Merkel said the poem was “unacceptable” and stressed that the broadcaster removed the content after apologizing on April 1 for “crossing the line into slander.”

So Merkel has not said it is slander, only that she views it as "unacceptable" (which is not a crime) and the broadcaster removed it after apologizing for the in their words slanderous poem. I would suggest that you read twice before you jump to conclusions in the future, or you will end up like Lizardo and believe that Sweden solely consists of teenagers.

[Fragony]

You are right I misread it

[Snowhobbit]

You are right I misread it

No worries, it can happen to the best of us. A good rule of thumb is that if you read something really outrageous then you should double-check that you understood it correct (it is something I try to do myself), it saves you from getting angry for no reason.

[Lizardo]

I wonder how many prison breakouts in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan have occured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVEJGXMG7ac

[Snowhobbit]

I wonder how many prison breakouts in Libya, Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan have occured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVEJGXMG7ac

Oh, you are back again. Have you mastered the concept of numericals yet?

[Fragony]

No worries, it can happen to the best of us. A good rule of thumb is that if you read something really outrageous then you should double-check that you understood it correct (it is something I try to do myself), it saves you from getting angry for no reason.

It might just be like I said it is it turns out, if it really is what it seems to be I want to know more about what exactly went on, mea culpa retracted, it does seems like the childless mutti didn't just disaprove

emphasis on 'seems'

[Snowhobbit]

It might just be like I said it is it turns out, if it really is what it seems to be I want to know more about what exactly went on, mea culpa retracted, it does seems like the childless mutti didn't just disaprove

emphasis on 'seems'

Do you have some article or press-release or such to support this notion?

[Fragony]

Do you have some article or press-release or such to support this notion?

No it's in limbo, not going to bother you with insinuations. I got nothing to support it.

[Snowhobbit]

No it's in limbo, not going to bother you with insinuations. I got nothing to support it.

To be clearer. What do you base your retraction of your mea culpa on? Because we've already established that the news article you posted backs your initial assertion. I am not insinuating anything, I'm asking for your sources. If you have nothing to support your change of mind, then why have you changed your mind?

[Fragony]

To be clearer. What do you base your retraction of your mea culpa on? Because we've already established that the news article you posted backs your initial assertion. I am not insinuating anything, I'm asking for your sources. If you have nothing to support your change of mind, then why have you changed your mind?

Yes you were right about article that was a fail on my behalf that I will admit without any objection. But this seems to be a developing story and I will fill you in if I actually got anything.

[Snowhobbit]

Yes you were right about article that was a fail on my behalf that I will admit without any objection. But this seems to be a developing story and I will fill you in if I actually got anything.

Looking forward to it, still waiting on those billions going to the Turkish army. That'd be real explosive stuff.

[Fragony]

Looking forward to it, still waiting on those billions going to the Turkish army. That'd be real explosive stuff.

Developing story or something we will never know, probably the latter. Where I got it from is rarely wrong but it's a blog, not an official source. I trust them because they always fully admit it if they got something wrong, and sometimes they are wrong. But usually they are not and usually is good enough for me.

[Snowhobbit]

Developing story or something we will never know, probably the latter. Where I got it from is rarely wrong but it's a blog, not an official source. I trust them because they always fully admit it if they got something wrong, and sometimes they are wrong. But usually they are not and usually is good enough for me.

And what kind of blog is this? Is it in Dutch or in English? What other things have they blown the lid on? What is their backstory that makes them credible in your view? I'm genuinely asking because I am curious, and I am not a stranger to the fact that not all truth can be found printed on the pages of a established newspaper. We live in a new age with new mediums for news, some reliable some less so.

[Fragony]

And what kind of blog is this? Is it in Dutch or in English? What other things have they blown the lid on? What is their backstory that makes them credible in your view? I'm genuinely asking because I am curious, and I am not a stranger to the fact that not all truth can be found printed on the pages of a established newspaper. We live in a new age with new mediums for news, some reliable some less so.

I know better than posting from blogs here, I can't take any credit for them to be reliable. I'll just leave it to that all the money from the EU seems to have been used for different things. I don't know if it's true and I can go no further than insinuations that I can't back up. I'll just give you the insinuation, Turkey has ambitions.

[Lizardo]

6 billion euros just to send migrants back why havent they helped greece out this is like the danegeld tribute during the Viking Invasions they will keep asking for more and blackmail this is totally eronious, Merkel has lost her marbles. Why Merkel Seal the deal, huh democracry?

[Snowhobbit]

I know better than posting from blogs here, I can't take any credit for them to be reliable. I'll just leave it to that all the money from the EU seems to have been used for different things. I don't know if it's true and I can go no further than insinuations that I can't back up. I'll just give you the insinuation, Turkey has ambitions.

Well, you can reply to my questions in a PM then. I am not asking the questions to try to knock you down somehow. Turkey (or rather Erdogan) has plenty of ambitions, this is known.


6 billion euros just to send migrants back why havent they helped greece out this is like the danegeld tribute during the Viking Invasions they will keep asking for more and blackmail this is totally eronious, Merkel has lost her marbles. Why Merkel Seal the deal, huh democracry?

I'm sorry, was there a point here? Just looks like rambling to me.

[Fragony]

Well, you can reply to my questions in a PM then. I am not asking the questions to try to knock you down somehow. Turkey (or rather Erdogan) has plenty of ambitions, this is known.


Will do when I can

[Fragony]

-snip-

IFD, can you fix all this for me please, and put her in a selfhugsuit between padded walls, cheers

Most disasterous European politician since 88, wir schaffen das. What do Germans want, this obviously very intelligent and charming women https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=611&q=ADF&oq=ADF&gs_l=img.3..0l10.3572.5646.0.7189.3.3.0.0.0.0.62.133.3.3.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.3.132.HDh7--ABcTw#hl=nl&tbm=isch&q=AFD&imgrc=EESeEW2xRrqkXM%3A or Erdogan's plumb ex-stasi religiously-insane goat

Even her own party is fed-up with the childless mutti

[Snowhobbit]

Yep, by now the childless Mutti really seems to be Erdogan's goat, she needs him to much by now after her bird-call and not a hole in her body isn't filled up or groped.

IFD, can you fix all this for me please, and put her in a selfhugsuit between padded walls, cheers

Most disasterous European politician since 88, wir schaffen das. What do Germans want, this obviously very intelligent and charming women https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=611&q=ADF&oq=ADF&gs_l=img.3..0l10.3572.5646.0.7189.3.3.0.0.0.0.62.133.3.3.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.3.132.HDh7--ABcTw#hl=nl&tbm=isch&q=AFD&imgrc=EESeEW2xRrqkXM%3A or Erdogan's plumb ex-stasi religiously-insane goat

Even her own party is fed-up with the childless mutti

I do not believe Merkel was born when the law which is being used by Erdogan was written. BTW the way you are writing is not really suitable if we are supposed to be even remotely family friendly.

[Fragony]

Innuendo is within the rules and frankly a bit of a hobby of mine;)

There are many laws that are outdated and just aren't used anymore. German parlement had some heated discussion, and as always the considerations are perfectly reasonable and defendable. But everybody understands who's hand is under who's skirt. (yuck)

The childless mutti knows she screwed up with her bird-call and is panicking and lashing out.

The funniest part is that the Great Sultan really made a fool of himself. Vulgar jokes are now flying around everywhere, Dutch comedian claims that Erdogan still ows him a blowjob, and the mayor of Antwerp is so pissed of that he askes people to make vulgar jokes on social media about Erdogan and turn themselves in at the police(belgium and the Netherlands also have this law). LOL

Thing with the childless mutti, she knows that she screwed up, and everybdody knows that she knows that. I love the way she responds, stupidly smiling with these lifeless dumb eyes of hers. Forgive my innuendo but she shaft das, hard, deep and insafe. The rest of us would prefer it if she would just be declared insane, she is.

[Greyblades]

Presented for your approval the quadrupling of the Swedish refugee related costs: http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/sweden-sees-costs-of-migration-crisis-almost-quadruple/

[Fragony]

It's what Swedes voted for, let them have it.

[Fragony]

Remember when this first happened and everyone told me I was wrong?

I do remember being scolded for pointing it out much much earlier

[Kralizec]

Apparently the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam has called on Turko-Dutch people to report any insults to Erdogan that they come across.

http://nos.nl/artikel/2100593-turkse-consulaat-roept-turken-in-nederland-op-beledigingen-te-melden.html
translation by yours truly:

The Turkish consulate in Rotterdam has called on Turks in the Netherlands to report insults against Turks, Turkey and the Turkish president Erdogan. Various Turkish organisations received this message by e-mail from the consulate.

It concerns hate speech and humiliating remarks published on Facebook and Twitter, but also e-mails and regular mail. The consulate said it would catalogue all e-mails it would receive before the end of the day (meaning the date this newsstory was published; 21 april - Kral)

The consulate wasn't available for comment today. The Turkish embassy, when asked, says that since the Böhmermann incident in Germany more reports from hate speech have come in. A spokesperson used the term 'hate campaign'. Because of that Turks are encouraged to report incidents. "We want to monitor the situation", said the embassy.

The embassy says it has also received a great deal of hate mail directly. According to the embassy these mails compare Erdogan to Hitler and say he ought to be murdered. Other mails say Turks should leave the Netherlands as quickly as possible and that Turks are the most despised people in the western world.

[Snowhobbit]

Apparently the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam has called on Turko-Dutch people to report any insults to Erdogan that they come across.

http://nos.nl/artikel/2100593-turkse-consulaat-roept-turken-in-nederland-op-beledigingen-te-melden.html
translation by yours truly:

Hopefully this will result in even more people taking advantage of that medieval law. Let open the floodgates I say!

[Fragony]

Apparently the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam has called on Turko-Dutch people to report any insults to Erdogan that they come across.

http://nos.nl/artikel/2100593-turkse-consulaat-roept-turken-in-nederland-op-beledigingen-te-melden.html
translation by yours truly:

Thanks for the invitation heh this is going to be fun

[Fragony]

Heh it's starting, sorry mr Erdogan you are going to be insulted, you tried to intimidate the unintimitated. Sorry Merkel, you are going to be on the receiving end of redicule as well. How stupid can you be to basicly beg for redicule. A lot of vulgar jokes and insinuations comming up. The Dutch are not like the Germans mr Erdogan we don't like to be told what to do, enjoy, I certainly am going to

[Fragony]

wtf du jour, they are insane in Germany. We apparently need more immigration from muslim countries to prevent inbreeding. Helloooooow, inbreeding is common practise there you want to poison are genes with inbred blood. This had to be the stupidist thing I heard in, well forever. We don't marry our cousins and nieces ffs, only the nobility and royals do that, and well

Multiculturists are sooooooo dangerous, total insanity. Inbred blood is blood-poisining, good reason for mass-immigration ya sure. put Herr Schauble in a padded cell for me please

[Greyblades]

German Finance Minister: Without Muslim Immigration, Germans Could Degenerate Via Inbreeding (http://www.vdare.com/posts/german-finance-minister-without-muslim-immigration-germans-could-degenerate-via-inbreeding)


The finance minister fears rather [i.e., more] the degeneration of German inbred as [i.e., than] an Islamization. Particularly a group of Muslim immigrants, he praises.

Federal Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) rejected the partitioning of Europe against immigration. “The foreclosure is but what would make us broken, which could degenerate us in inbreeding,” he told the weekly ” Time “. “For us Muslims in Germany an enrichment of our openness and our diversity.” The show, the third generation of Turks in Germany, especially the women. “That is nevertheless an enormous innovatory potential!” Said Schäuble.

I get that ideals of genetic purity isnt exactly in vogue in germany but I think this is taking things a bit too far the other way.

[Fragony]

It's what sane people already warned for, multiculturists want a replacement. It's more than a little bit creepy how they think.

[Husar]

Ooooh, might want to add that it is Goggle translate (because it makes no sense), but thanks for the link Greyblades, I had no idea what Fragony was on about again....

Schäuble says a lot of crazy things, but this is just going a bit far perhaps. He says especially Turkish women integrated well, which is not universally true, but true for some indeed. Of course for us, Kurdish people are Turks as well, at least before we talk to them and learn they are Kurdish. I wish I could replace myself with a Sudanese person, but race change operations have not been invented yet, so sad... :rolleyes:

[Fragony]

It's frankly outragious what he says, do you let idiots like that make decisions on things. Germans are perfectly healthy people there is no inbreeding whatsoever, immigrants should always be welcome but he has bigger ideas. Be wary of idiots in high positions like the childless mutti and Schauble, they have something to prove. Germany seems to feel so guilty over what happened but everyone who points a finger points three back. The trauma in the German psyche starts to be a problem, it already is really, the childless mutti and those who still want to take resposibility. It wasn't you you idiots, it was everybody.

The new stephard wives-Germany scares me much more

[Husar]

It's frankly outragious what he says, do you let idiots like that make decisions on things. Germans are perfectly healthy people there is no inbreeding whatsoever, immigrants should always be welcome but he has bigger ideas. Be wary of idiots in high positions like the childless mutti and Schauble, they have something to prove. Germany seems to feel so guilty over what happened but everyone who points a finger points three back. The trauma in the German psyche starts to be a problem, it already is really, the childless mutti and those who still want to take resposibility. It wasn't you you idiots, it was everybody.

The new stephard wives-Germany scares me much more

It is really strange how you try to follow everything back to a supposedly super strong guilt-complex.
I'd think both Merkel and Schäuble are way too cold to feel guilty about something.
More likely they're bringing in more cheap workers so corporations can lower wages further.
And then corporations will pay even fewer taxes and they'll have to find a way to punish the lazy unemployed people more for being so lazy and expensive.
The economy is doing great though...

[Greyblades]

Yeah, sorry, I couldnt find a non google translation, german gaffes dont get much coverage in english media, go figure. The headline was probably clear enough.

As for the guilt complex, it's likely not to be as pervasive as fragony thinks, but it is hard to imagine this happening without at least this guy feeling some of it.

Even if it is primarily greed related it's weird his mind went to such a self disparaging place when coming up with excuses. I mean I dont think even the Red Army propaganda would think you guys being inbred because of your population size was a plausable enough lie to run with... Though now that I think about it, it might have gone over pretty convincingly considering the nazi genetic ideal was based off recessive genes.

[Husar]

Even if it is primarily greed related it's weird his mind went to such a self disparaging place when coming up with excuses. I mean I dont think even the Red Army propaganda would think you guys being inbred because of your population size was a plausable enough lie to run with... Though now that I think about it, it might have gone over pretty convincingly considering the nazi genetic ideal was based off recessive genes.

If he thinks that it makes it harder for most people to argue against it, why not?

I don't care too much about what he says though, he's an old man from a conservative party and he's not the Chancellor.
Quite a few of the things he says never seem to make it anywhere so why should I get worked up just because he had another crazy idea?
Not that I mind the idea of having children with a woman who is not blonde and blue-eyed, quite the contrary...

[Fragony]

Fuels the thought that this isn't an immigration-crisis but concious policy to replace europeans. That is an existing political theory, the childless mutti won an award for persuing it. Germany, once again

Koudenove-Kalerzi plan, nice award. Multiculturalists are soooooo dangerous, especially when someone as powerfull as the known stasi childless mutti pulls the strings in the EU

[Gilrandir]

I don't care too much about what he says though, he's an old man from a conservative party and he's not the Chancellor.


If similar messages were heard from someone of Ukrainian political "elite" the attitude here would be rather different, now would it? But if it is an old conservative German gaffer, it is pardonable, isn't it? It tarnishes the reputation of his boss in no way, does it?

[Fragony]

If similar messages were heard from someone of Ukrainian political "elite" the attitude here would be rather different, now would it?

Rest assured, it's getting no attention at all. If the political elite in Ukraine said that all who think differently should be skinned alive with a ball in their mouth it 'quality media' will ignore that as well, they live from advertisements of companies that recieve free EU money

You Ukrainens should think this over so hard, you are making yourself a proxy-zone, be glad we Dutchies a(not our current gornment) aree there as we don't want that, but they have to listen first and they probably won't. The stop of the association-treaty would be the best news you ever got.

[Gilrandir]

Rest assured, it's getting no attention at all. If the political elite in Ukraine said that all who think differently should be skinned alive with a ball in their mouth it 'quality media' will ignore that as well, they live from advertisements of companies that recieve free EU money


I meant not in the press, but on these boards.



we Dutchies a(not our current gornment) aree there as we don't want that


You present your personal opinion as the one of the whole nation.



The stop of the association-treaty would be the best news you ever got.
An arbitrary statement.

[Fragony]

The opinion of the ones who voted only, a shame it will be inored probably

[Viking]

If avoiding inbreeding is a goal, one would need to strip the culture and religion from the new arrivals, or one would end up with separate groups 'inbreeding' in parallel.

[Pannonian]

If avoiding inbreeding is a goal, one would need to strip the culture and religion from the new arrivals, or one would end up with separate groups 'inbreeding' in parallel.

In one discussion I've seen on the topic, based admittedly on a European anthropologist's study, Muslims described their own culture as "endogamous", ie. marrying within their group, whereas Europeans were "exogamous", ie. marrying outside their group. If the aim is to avoid inbreeding, looking to other European/Europeanised countries would seem a better bet. London and New York would be particularly good places to look.

[Husar]

In one discussion I've seen on the topic, based admittedly on a European anthropologist's study, Muslims described their own culture as "endogamous", ie. marrying within their group, whereas Europeans were "exogamous", ie. marrying outside their group. If the aim is to avoid inbreeding, looking to other European/Europeanised countries would seem a better bet. London and New York would be particularly good places to look.

Too expensive if it's not in the EU. Might as well go for a South American then, or Japanophile.
Whatever makes us die out faster.

[Lizardo]

Port of Calais in chaos (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/21/calais-chaos-bbc-reports-major-migrant-unrest-channel-port-power-problems/) BBC lies and says Power cuts whilst in reality the situation is much different migrants block motorways storm fences attack cars. Authorities were forced to close the main A16 highway for more than four hours as police battled up to 300 Calais Jungle migrants and refugee activists. Police were forced to put up barriers and fire more than 600 tear gas grenades to disperse the crowd.

this comes after migrants were endagering ferry operations by swimming to board Cross channel ferries.

[Fragony]

Almost thursday

[Fragony]

lol, guess where 'refugees' from Iritraia spend their holiday 3 2 1, yes

[Husar]

If the guest can't answer in English himself, he's probably a legit Nazi indeed. ~;)

[Fragony]

Incredible idea from Germany, they kinda have a problem with the childless mutti's little children, they get very confused when they see pretty women ' I cannotz gropez??' especially in swimming pools. Everywhere but especially there.It's brilliant, make them a bath-meister, the only problen is that they can't swim but they can schaff das.

Sweden 2.0

[Charge]

So, what is the general attitude towards the immigrants in EU? Or better said,a neighbor who's an immigrant, what is YOUR attitude towards him?:) I mean, normal kind of an immigrant. Not like our "mountain" type of men from Caucasus, dancing 'lezghinka' on the streets at any time of the day and walking around in groups, bullying those who cant defend themselves, being completely "unseen" by the law:) Those, who come to countries and work, live as europeans, pay taxes, respect local people and their culture and so on. I guess there isnt a problem, so long as the attitudes towards both parties are right, and friendly..

[Fragony]

Pretty kindly, but as always don't who don't deserve to be are sometimes at the receiving end, especially in smaller villages. If I go to the bible belt or any small community they want me out as well. No problems in the cities, specially Rotterdam is a bit of a bonzai-NYC Can only speak for the Netherlands.

[Greyblades]

So, what is the general attitude towards the immigrants in EU? Or better said,a neighbor who's an immigrant, what is YOUR attitude towards him?:) I mean, normal kind of an immigrant. Not like our "mountain" type of men from Caucasus, dancing 'lezghinka' on the streets at any time of the day and walking around in groups, bullying those who cant defend themselves, being completely "unseen" by the law:) Those, who come to countries and work, live as europeans, pay taxes, respect local people and their culture and so on. I guess there isnt a problem, so long as the attitudes towards both parties are right, and friendly..

Regular migrants I'm completely fine with, my misgivings for regular immigration is that the government is letting too many in too fast, not that they're here at all. I must admit I am never happy seeing a muslim woman in a black face veil.

[Fragony]

Hardly ever see those here, but just give them what they want. Ignore them if they are in a line, you can't see them after all. Calling an ambulance if they are wounded, sorry can't see you. They are not human to me, just a bag of meat and bones wearing a sack.

[Gilrandir]

Why should I look any different towards them if they prefer not to be seen as an individual?

Sometimes twins dress up (or are dressed up being kids) in identical clothes. Do you see them as not individuals either and wouldn't call an ambulance if they are hurt?

[Fragony]

Well that is one hell of a muppet
so a neo nazi holocaust denier got arrested because he posted some 1930s racial purity propoganda on social media.

Police is going to be very busy if they have to do a housesearch every time our new neighbours from the sandlands say profoundly antisemetic things or glorify terrorist-attacks or openly cheer on the IS most horrible deeds. Is that guy an idiot, yes, double standards, absolutily.

[Greyblades]

Well that is one hell of a muppet
so a neo nazi holocaust denier got arrested because he posted some 1930s racial purity propoganda on social media.

The hell? What video did you watch? At worst this guy was a Reichsbürgerbewegung, aka a prussian nostalgist/state citizen. Where the hell are you getting holocaust denier?

And 30's race propaganda? It was a naked blonde woman pictured in mid motion looking like she's doing the nazi salute and captioned " it doesnt get more german than this."

[Fragony]

The hell? What video did you watch? At worst this guy was a Reichsbürgerbewegung, aka a prussian nostalgist/state citizen. Where the hell are you getting holocaust denier?


Why bother with inception. I only called him an idiot because he should have known that he would get into trouble. can't also see any holocaust denial.

In the meantime, a rabbi was stabbed by a 'confused man' shouting 'Allahu Akhbar'.

motives unknown, except one

[Legs]

The hell? What video did you watch? . ."
Your video.


At worst this guy was a Reichsbürgerbewegung, aka a prussian nostalgist/state citizen
Yes, not all reichsburger nuts are neo nazis, but lots of them are.
So the question is, is this particular flagwaving nutcase one?
Enough points head in that direction for it to be a pretty safe deduction.


Where the hell are you getting holocaust denier?


Which "historian" is he recomending for the stab in the back and global conspiracy element of his political views?


And 30's race propaganda? It was a naked blonde woman pictured in mid motion looking like she's doing the nazi salute and captioned " it doesnt get more german than this."
Yes, 1930s german aryan certified "art" produced for the promotion of the master race. Reichsculture mate established under Goebells in 1933. Ministry of public enlightenment.
Didn't you hear him mention the origin of the image he posted.


So the question is, did you even watch the bloody video and listen to the idiot on it?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Still smacks of 'thought policing' to me. Unless and until he incites harm against another, his hateful opinions are his own problem. Belief in the tropes of Nazism brands you as a bit of an idiot, but stupidity is not criminal.

[Fragony]

Sometimes twins dress up (or are dressed up being kids) in identical clothes. Do you see them as not individuals either and wouldn't call an ambulance if they are hurt?

Of course I would, they don't give me the finger. If you insist on provocing you should be surprised if somebody doesn't care about your wellbeing. If they are forced to wear it that's a problem they should solve themselve.

In an epic take on wearing a tent leftist logic doesn't dissapoint, they defend wearing a tent because otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to leave the house at all.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm owwwk

The lefties in the seventies (it's a political poster so I guess it's ok, containsnudity) http://historiek.net/historische-borsten-op-facebook-blog/17874/

Now the same people now that their skin is sour rippled and dry defend the burqua

[Fragony]

So if you think someones clothing is a personal insult to you you consider them to be sub human?

If it is? Absolutily. Wearing a burqua is a statement that you adhere a hostile ideoligy, why should I help them. Rot in peace. It's kinda funny, in Iran modern women can't wait to walk without a headscarve (which I have no problem with really) and here lefties defend wearing a tent.

Just a thought for you Legs, I am always very nice and talkative with the few headscarved girls in my local supermarket, they are really nice, love to flirt a bit, ask how my kittens are doing, really nice girls who you can have a laugh with. What exactly is the difference between that and tentwearers? Yes a total lack of any hostility. And you think you are doing them a favour? One can tell one someone knows nothing at all. I will keep supporting females rights even if it offends the confused.

Thesis: can it be more laughable that feminists and softmen defend wearing something something that completely denies your very existance? I'll just admit it I'm a feminist, but just differently, I want them to be beautifull, that is also sexist if you want it to be of course but I just like pretty women. I don't like walking tents, I don't know why you do but there must be a special reason. To each their own taste it's different for everyone. I don't find a tent very exciting but if you do that's ok I guess.

No matter what you think of me, I am just going to help people as I have always done. No money required, I got an entire appartment for free and and six chellets I don't use, it's all free of any charge whatsoever, everthing is payed, not just be me. Who do you think they like better, you or me

Feel free to call me an as asshole, but it's a pretty fair claim to say that I have helped more people than you ever will.

mi casa su casa, you wouldn't believe how much people I have protected, but feel free to thi.nk badly of me, those who know me don't do that, even if I sometimes hit them that's normal here. You want me to be w mindless racist, sorry I am not, not at all, you would know that if you just if you just came fore a beer. Warning in advance, you are going to have a problem with my surimani friends if you call me a racist, they will get really angry. Mistake of mine, I dismissed why there were there were no Surinami in the Dutch national football team. It really hurted their feelings but I never noticed that. I don't know why but they somehow feel part of the Netherlands, the monarchy isn't very popular here but in the former colonies they seem to adore them

[Fragony]

You deserve a straight answer and I had to think it over and this comes out of it ;I find my tolerance to be abused. Tolerance is a live and let live thing, not tresspassing.

[Greyblades]

Your video. Your inability to recognize rhetorical questions makes your inability to recognisze satire make a lot more sense.

Yes, not all reichsburger nuts are neo nazis, but lots of them are.
So the question is, is this particular flagwaving nutcase one?A question you havent proven either way, considering his flag was the Imperial german flag one indicates otherwise.

Enough points head in that direction for it to be a pretty safe deduction. You havent named one that isnt "there are people who shared his views who are also nazis" which is getting into "hitler ate sugar" territory.


Which "historian" is he recomending for the stab in the back and global conspiracy element of his political views? Which part of the video did he say he didnt believe the holocaust happened?


Yes, 1930s german aryan certified "art" produced for the promotion of the master race. Reichsculture mate established under Goebells in 1933. Ministry of public enlightenment.
Didn't you hear him mention the origin of the image he posted. No, I watched it 3 times looking for an origin and they do not confirm where the image originates, merely one of the interviewers suspected it was such. I did however find the image in the comments; 'cult of the sun' (2006) by 'TheaterOfCrueltyNOH AZcara', a modern day Russian photographer. He didnt even post it; he liked it on facebook.

You appear to have latched onto the suspicion that he posted 1930's propaganda, and taken it as fact.


Still smacks of 'thought policing' to me. Unless and until he incites harm against another, his hateful opinions are his own problem. Belief in the tropes of Nazism brands you as a bit of an idiot, but stupidity is not criminal. I do not believe he is hateful, merely deluded and scared, a state that is likely made worse not better by being subject to anti-fa vandalism and an unsubstantiated government raid.

[Legs]

If it is? Absolutily. Wearing a burqua is a statement that you adhere a hostile ideoligy, why should I help them. Rot in peace. It's kinda funny, in Iran modern women can't wait to walk without a headscarve (which I have no problem with really) and here lefties defend wearing a tent.

Just a thought for you Legs, I am always very nice and talkative with the few headscarved girls in my local supermarket, they are really nice, love to flirt a bit, ask how my kittens are doing, really nice girls who you can have a laugh with. What exactly is the difference between that and tentwearers? Yes a total lack of any hostility. And you think you are doing them a favour? One can tell one someone knows nothing at all. I will keep supporting females rights even if it offends the confused.

Thesis: can it be more laughable that feminists and softmen defend wearing something something that completely denies your very existance? I'll just admit it I'm a feminist, but just differently, I want them to be beautifull, that is also sexist if you want it to be of course but I just like pretty women. I don't like walking tents, I don't know why you do but there must be a special reason. To each their own taste it's different for everyone. I don't find a tent very exciting but if you do that's ok I guess.

No matter what you think of me, I am just going to help people as I have always done. No money required, I got an entire appartment for free and and six chellets I don't use, it's all free of any charge whatsoever, everthing is payed, not just be me. Who do you think they like better, you or me

Feel free to call me an as asshole, but it's a pretty fair claim to say that I have helped more people than you ever will.

mi casa su casa, you wouldn't believe how much people I have protected, but feel free to thi.nk badly of me, those who know me don't do that, even if I sometimes hit them that's normal here. You want me to be w mindless racist, sorry I am not, not at all, you would know that if you just if you just came fore a beer. Warning in advance, you are going to have a problem with my surimani friends if you call me a racist, they will get really angry. Mistake of mine, I dismissed why there were there were no Surinami in the Dutch national football team. It really hurted their feelings but I never noticed that. I don't know why but they somehow feel part of the Netherlands, the monarchy isn't very popular here but in the former colonies they seem to adore them
Go on , admit it, you are Donald Trump.

But even better can you explain to your colonial friends your previous postings about immigrants from former Dutch colonies.
W/indies E/indies S.American all criminals aren't they, refusing to integrate aren't they, abusing the system aren't they, mooching off welfare aren't they, having lots of babies at the taxpayers expaense aren't they.
You may recall that in the other topic I searched some keywords to confirm my impression of your ideology by viewing previous posts by you.
Surinam was one of the keywords wasn't it.

[Fragony]

Sympathising with nazi's is not a crime, I don't understand why someone sympethises with nazi's but if someone does so what really. I'm not going to buy him a beer but sympathise with nazi's all you want as long as you don't harm anyone

[Fragony]

A week ago you claimed Fragony was Breivik, now you say he is Trump. :dizzy2: I got it! Breivik=Trump. A list of sensations that follow this conclusion:
1. Americans may elect Breivik as president.
2. Breivik's got a nest on his head.
3. Fragony is married to a top model.
4. Trump's English is precarious.
5. Fragony posts here serving his life sentence.
6. Breivik hosts a Somali refugee.

lol the Somali left a few months ago he lives in Rotterdam niw, I now have a Syrian gay. Despicable me. Both just weren't safe there, I never asked the Somali why, why the Syrian isn't safe must be pretty obvious. But Legs (Snowhobbit) is absolutily right that I want to kill all muslims. I give them shelter so I can put nails in the door and give them a meal (not just me) so I can eventually poisen them. Syrian gay will be gone in two days. They can/could use my bathroom, kitchen, and we tagged then along with the boat of a friend of mine and gave them dinner at a restaurant a few times, how about you legs, what have you done for others besides having the courtisy to be making a new account to associate me (you know, the guy who wanted to kill you) with a Norwegian psychopath

[ ] uhhhh nothing really
[ ] I make a new account to insult people
[ ] my mother thinks I'm nice
[ ] other,

[Legs]

What about the "Are you incredibly stupid?"
Well neo nazi marches have been widely coverered on the tv news and in print media.
It would be pretty difficult to not know what flags they like to carry on their protests, unless you knew virtually nothing about the subject you were talking about.
So if a person wanted to make a claim that the flag has no connection with neo nazis in germany it isn't something that is hard to check before they went ahead and made the claim.

So does "ignorant" or "wilfully ignorant" describe it better than "incredibly stupid"? Because the only possible deductions are;
A
a person doesn't know what they are talkling about but is still making claims on the subject.
B
a person does know what they are talking about but is making a claim that is clearly false.

Either one of which can only lead to questions about the level of intelligence being applied by the person.

[Legs]

Sympathising with nazi's is not a crime,
That depends on the different legislation different countries have. It also depends on how the "sympathy" is expressed.
Does Germany have such laws?
Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party; the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.


Looks like they do.

[Legs]

lol the Somali left a few months ago he lives in Rotterdam niw, I now have a Syrian gay. Despicable me. Both just weren't safe there, I never asked the Somali why, why the Syrian isn't safe must be pretty obvious. But Legs (Snowhobbit) is absolutily right that I want to kill all muslims. I give them shelter so I can put nails in the door and give them a meal (not just me) so I can eventually poisen them. Syrian gay will be gone in two days. They can/could use my bathroom, kitchen, and we tagged then along with the boat of a friend of mine and gave them dinner at a restaurant a few times, how about you legs, what have you done for others besides having the courtisy to be making a new account to associate me (you know, the guy who wanted to kill you) with a Norwegian psychopath

[ ] uhhhh nothing really
[ ] I make a new account to insult people
[ ] my mother thinks I'm nice
[ ] other,
You can make as many claims about how nice you are to immigrants as you want.
Your own posts on the subjects of race religion ethnicity culture and country of origin provide ovverwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Are you attempting to deny that this.....W/indies E/indies S.American all criminals aren't they, refusing to integrate aren't they, abusing the system aren't they, mooching off welfare aren't they, having lots of babies at the taxpayers expaense aren't they.
..is an accurate summary of views you have stated on this forum about immigrants from former dutch colonies?

[Fragony]

You can make as many claims about how nice you are to immigrants as you want.
Your own posts on the subjects of race religion ethnicity culture and country of origin provide ovverwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Are you attempting to deny that this.....W/indies E/indies S.American all criminals aren't they, refusing to integrate aren't they, abusing the system aren't they, mooching off welfare aren't they, having lots of babies at the taxpayers expaense aren't they.
..is an accurate summary of views you have stated on this forum about immigrants from former dutch colonies?

Are the conversations between you and the voices in your head sometimes actually sometimes captiviting? It would be interesting to be you if they are, I love oddities. Or in more common internet-language, wtf are you talking about. You mia muca should be in a padded-cell with a selfhugsuit before things get (even) worse, who knows, you might even slit your wrists and wonder what just happened. that isn't even meant to be nasty, good intentions even. In short seek help.

[Legs]

Are the conversations between you and the voices in your head sometimes actually sometimes captiviting? It would be interesting to be you if they are, I love oddities. Or in more common internet-language, wtf are you talking about. You mia muca should be in a padded-cell with a selfhugsuit before things get (even) worse, who knows, you might even slit your wrists and wonder what just happened. that isn't even meant to be nasty, good intentions even. In short seek help.
Simple question isn't it?
Are you attempting to deny that this.....W/indies E/indies S.American all criminals aren't they, refusing to integrate aren't they, abusing the system aren't they, mooching off welfare aren't they, having lots of babies at the taxpayers expaense aren't they.
..is an accurate summary of views you have stated on this forum about immigrants from former dutch colonies?

Go on Fragony deny it.

[Gilrandir]

You can make as many claims about how nice you are to immigrants as you want.
Your own posts on the subjects of race religion ethnicity culture and country of origin provide ovverwhelming evidence to the contrary.


Have you ever heard of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_LaPiere

LaPiere spent two years traveling the United States by car with a couple of Chinese ethnicity. During that time they visited 251 hotels and restaurants and were turned away only once. At the conclusion of their travels LaPiere mailed a survey to all of the businesses they visited with the question, "Will you accept members of the Chinese race in your establishment?" The available responses were "Yes", "No", and "Depends upon the circumstances". Of the 128 that responded 92% answered No. The study was seminal in establishing the gap between attitudes and behaviors.

[Legs]

Have you ever heard of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_LaPiere

LaPiere spent two years traveling the United States by car with a couple of Chinese ethnicity. During that time they visited 251 hotels and restaurants and were turned away only once. At the conclusion of their travels LaPiere mailed a survey to all of the businesses they visited with the question, "Will you accept members of the Chinese race in your establishment?" The available responses were "Yes", "No", and "Depends upon the circumstances". Of the 128 that responded 92% answered No. The study was seminal in establishing the gap between attitudes and behaviors.
Ever heard of this?
”I'm not a murderer; some of my best friends are alive."

[Fragony]

Simple question isn't it?
Are you attempting to deny that this.....W/indies E/indies S.American all criminals aren't they, refusing to integrate aren't they, abusing the system aren't they, mooching off welfare aren't they, having lots of babies at the taxpayers expaense aren't they.
..is an accurate summary of views you have stated on this forum about immigrants from former dutch colonies?

Go on Fragony deny it.

Well I'll just deny it simply because I never said that, you may think I did and it might be true to you because you probably really saw that, it's normal that people with mental problems see things that aren't there. I said no such things, there is only one place in the universe and surroundings where it exists and that is in your head. Saying things like that would get me banned. Are Trump and Breivik the same persons in your personal fabrication, don't get me wrong I will immediatly believe that ypu are a very interesting person and all life matters.

A quik look for our numerous guests, https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?151602-Civility-and-threats-of-grievous-bodily-harm-or-worse

interesting ain't it. Even makes a new account. I didn't even fuck him and stopped answering the phone. I have no idea who he is. Flattering to have a nemisis though. Never forget that you are special Snohobbit/legs, just like everybody else.

[Fragony]

Keep up with the denials.
Are you also going to deny that you said immigrants are stupid or that you said you were going out at the weekend to beat up immigrants?

I did? You are partially right, it was when the riots in Paris could be spreading to Rotterdam, something that never happened. If they do I still will so what. That was like 5 years ago? And no in that particular I still feel the same way. There is simply no reason tp riot here.

I got a good memory it know what post you mean, I said 'I'll know where I will be if they do'. Can't say if I wouldn't have but it never happened. I would have if it actually did because muslim fanatics booohoooblacks and bored rich kids have nothing that justifies senselesly wrecking things.

I am starting to wonder, aren't you, Snowhobbit and Tribesman the exact same person

[Legs]

No reason to riot eh?
so if you get a crowd rioting about an immigration center is that a reason to riot?
When a black man dies in police custody is that a reason to riot?
Feyernord win the league is that a reason to riot?
Riots against immigration, is that a reason to riot?
So which group of people rioting in Holland is a justification for you to go out and beat up immigrants?

Nice to see you associate rioting with being muslim or black, racist much?

[Fragony]

No reason to riot eh?
so if you get a crowd rioting about an immigration center is that a reason to riot?
When a black man dies in police custody is that a reason to riot?
Feyernord win the league is that a reason to riot?
Riots against immigration, is that a reason to riot?
So which group of people rioting in Holland is a justification for you to go out and beat up immigrants?

Nice to see you associate rioting with being muslim or black, racist much?

There is nobody who wants to, although there have been a few incidents in small communities, stones through windows that sort of thing. I also get these if I move there. Hatred for immigrants is basicly non-existant, some like it to be because it fuels their (bored rich kids) reason to exist, but it just isn't there. Try talking with instead of about.

[Gilrandir]

Ever heard of this?
”I'm not a murderer; some of my best friends are alive."

I see. You deny the results of a pivotal psychological experiment and simple logics ("what people do and what people say may not coincide"). Party on, dude.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That is where it gets interesting, he was only one of sixty people who had their computers seized.
He is part of a group yes?
The group is closely monitored by the German domestic security service because it has issued death threats against "traitors".

Okay, if there is any perception of credibility from the threats, THAT would justify investigation and possible prosecution. I just hate efforts to make laws about a person's thoughts and the expression thereof. I believe people have a right to idiotic views (as long as they don't represent a threat to the neighbors).

[Husar]

Okay, if there is any perception of credibility from the threats, THAT would justify investigation and possible prosecution. I just hate efforts to make laws about a person's thoughts and the expression thereof. I believe people have a right to idiotic views (as long as they don't represent a threat to the neighbors).

Does it represent a threat to the neighbors if they vote accordingly for a government that is very bad for the neighbors?

[Fragony]

Does it represent a threat to the neighbors if they vote accordingly for a government that is very bad for the neighbors?

The exreme-right is so marginal in Germany that that isn't a 'what if' worth bothering with

[Husar]

The exreme-right is so marginal in Germany that that isn't a 'what if' worth bothering with

It is a question every society has to ask at some point and I asked it in general, not just about Germany.
I fully understand Seamus' point, it's just that a border may have to be drawn somewhere or does the democratic will of a majority of the population who want a dictator trump the supposedly "universal truth" that a democratic government is best for a people?
A better country to compare with than German would be Turkey. If it is the democratic will of the (majority of) people that Erdogan can do what he wants with all the other people, should someone deny them the realization of that idea? Many or even most modern European democracies would say yes. Trump may actually say no. So yes, I think it is a relevant question because the process of political voting is a process of turning ideas into realities.

[Fragony]

It's pretty baffling what's happening in Turkey (and Turkish organisations and communitiesin Europe) but it's another discussion, it's a matter of law and the guy who's house was searched didn't commit any crime, so it comes close to thought-policing, or already is really. You don't have to like him

[Husar]

it's another discussion
[...]
thought-policing

But isn't that exactly the discussion? :dizzy2:

[Fragony]

No I think not, you are more talking about majority rule. Turkey can not be used an example anyway Erdogan is just a madman who makes a coup after an attempted coup

[Husar]

No I think not, you are more talking about majority rule. Turkey can not be used an example anyway Erdogan is just a madman who makes a coup after an attempted coup

So the question whether there should be thought-policing to prevent a majority rule that wants to treat minorities badly has nothing to do with a discussion about majority rule? Okay...:dizzy2:

And Erdogan being apparently supported in everything he does by a majority of the Turkish electorate has nothing to do with majority rule and the validity of it in all cases either...hmm, how philosophical of you. :dizzy2:

[Fragony]

So the question whether there should be thought-policing to prevent a majority rule that wants to treat minorities badly has nothing to do with a discussion about majority rule? Okay...:dizzy2:

And Erdogan being apparently supported in everything he does by a majority of the Turkish electorate has nothing to do with majority rule and the validity of it in all cases either...hmm, how philosophical of you. :dizzy2:

Where you want a bigger picture I want to narrow it down, we aproach it differently. I don't care about dangerous views some may or may not have. All I can say for myself is that I don't really know how far that can be stretched but the opposite of taking it too far is also bad. A home searh because someone has ideas I don't find very nice, well...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Does it represent a threat to the neighbors if they vote accordingly for a government that is very bad for the neighbors?

Potentially. One of the joys of having a written Constitution as we have in the USA is that the government -- even WERE a group of like-minded skinhead-esque yahoos able to work together long enough and well enough to win a plurality in a significant election -- isn't permitted to just toss aside Constitutional constraints and rule by fiat. In the final analysis, THAT is the point of the 2nd Amendment, were our government to try to do so then the government would be changed. We pay a price for that safety from tyranny in lives, but it serves as our ultimate constraint on government and, by extension, the skinhead-fascist who would impose her views on us through force.

We thus can afford to let people express themselves -- even those whose expressions are patent nonsense.

In addition, our courts have long maintained the concept of "clear and present danger" as the standard for free speech. You can call for change, advocate racism, deny the mountains of evidence that confirm the Holocaust, even insist that the only true deity is a wheat noodle. When you call for violence, when you encourage violence, when you sanction violence your speech becomes actionable as a clear and present danger to the rights of the larger community.

I don't know quite how Germany sets things up so that the idiot can express herself AND the community is comfortable with that expression because it is a null as a threat -- your history is much different from ours on this. I just don't think that thought police laws are very enforceable or, in terms of human rights, wise.

Oh, and for those of you gun restriction advocates who read the comment on the 2nd Amendment above and thought..."but the government has all the weapons that count, your hunting rifle is pointless anyway"...you are failing to consider that the government could not convince its military to act against their own people in that way. Our culture simply doesn't foster obedience to superiors in that manner. And even IF the military somehow went along with it, you CANNOT maintain "boot on the neck" control over a nation with more weapons than persons and a ridiculous number of people who love the blow "stuff" up for fun while celebrating holidays. Witness just how problematic it is to try to exert control in Afghanistan even with drones, air support etc.

[Viking]

Oh, and for those of you gun restriction advocates who read the comment on the 2nd Amendment above and thought..."but the government has all the weapons that count, your hunting rifle is pointless anyway"...you are failing to consider that the government could not convince its military to act against their own people in that way. Our culture simply doesn't foster obedience to superiors in that manner. And even IF the military somehow went along with it, you CANNOT maintain "boot on the neck" control over a nation with more weapons than persons and a ridiculous number of people who love the blow "stuff" up for fun while celebrating holidays. Witness just how problematic it is to try to exert control in Afghanistan even with drones, air support etc.

The majority of the people who armed themselves could be supporters of the fascist government rather than opponents of it, lessening or removing the need for military intervention.

[Husar]

Potentially. One of the joys of having a written Constitution as we have in the USA is that the government -- even WERE a group of like-minded skinhead-esque yahoos able to work together long enough and well enough to win a plurality in a significant election -- isn't permitted to just toss aside Constitutional constraints and rule by fiat. In the final analysis, THAT is the point of the 2nd Amendment, were our government to try to do so then the government would be changed. We pay a price for that safety from tyranny in lives, but it serves as our ultimate constraint on government and, by extension, the skinhead-fascist who would impose her views on us through force.

We thus can afford to let people express themselves -- even those whose expressions are patent nonsense.

In addition, our courts have long maintained the concept of "clear and present danger" as the standard for free speech. You can call for change, advocate racism, deny the mountains of evidence that confirm the Holocaust, even insist that the only true deity is a wheat noodle. When you call for violence, when you encourage violence, when you sanction violence your speech becomes actionable as a clear and present danger to the rights of the larger community.

I don't know quite how Germany sets things up so that the idiot can express herself AND the community is comfortable with that expression because it is a null as a threat -- your history is much different from ours on this. I just don't think that thought police laws are very enforceable or, in terms of human rights, wise.

Oh, and for those of you gun restriction advocates who read the comment on the 2nd Amendment above and thought..."but the government has all the weapons that count, your hunting rifle is pointless anyway"...you are failing to consider that the government could not convince its military to act against their own people in that way. Our culture simply doesn't foster obedience to superiors in that manner. And even IF the military somehow went along with it, you CANNOT maintain "boot on the neck" control over a nation with more weapons than persons and a ridiculous number of people who love the blow "stuff" up for fun while celebrating holidays. Witness just how problematic it is to try to exert control in Afghanistan even with drones, air support etc.


The majority of the people who armed themselves could be supporters of the fascist government rather than opponents of it, lessening or removing the need for military intervention.

What Viking said is my answer to your first part, Seamus. See Turkey, where the population took to the streets in support of the ever-more dictatorial Erdogan when the military of all things wanted to "save democracy", whatever one may think about that.

Nazi Germany, the GDR/DDR, North Korea and China may also beg to differ on the part where controlling a population is impossible. It doesn't work for the US elsewhere because the US are not willing / cannot afford to create an atmosphere of fear and repression. Even the ragtag ISIS "government" seems to have large areas under control using such fear tactics and public executions. You might even want to say this sort of system worked during the entire Middle Ages all over the world. Fear of death is a strong motivator, just see how muslims are often removed from planes because someone else fears them or how we spent billions on body scanners and other airport security. Both the Nazis and the DDR used that fear through the establishment of secret spy networks within the population. You do not need to control the thoughts, but if people don't dare talk about their thoughts to anyone, you basically prevent the formation of a sizeable resistance in most cases because people either don't dare to organize or get caught and ruthlessly executed before the movement is big and strong enough.

I'd say you need at the very least 20%, better 30% or more of the population in support of such a regime, but with the right incentives you can find such percentages in many countries.

If you assume for a minute that Trump would establish a similar system when elected and have around 50% of the voting population backing him up, where would the armed rebellion come from? The democratic gun control supporters? If those Trump supporters then supported the right of store owners to reject muslim customers for example, and then after two years, Trump and congress would pass a law banning muslims from entering shopping malls because it's just too dangerous to have them there and so on...perhaps they'd have to wear an armband with a crescent on it, too...
You think that could never happen? I would surely hope so, but I'm not so sure.

I mean I see your point and I like it, it's just once a sizeable majority uses the freedom to think what they want to think and express that others should be barred from those same freedoms that I think the freedom sort of defeats itself...

[Fragony]

Just a thought the Hus, isn't it kinda ironic that you are the one who thinks up doomsday scenarios

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...
I mean I see your point and I like it, it's just once a sizeable majority uses the freedom to think what they want to think and express that others should be barred from those same freedoms that I think the freedom sort of defeats itself...

I cannot argue that what you say is impossible. I can assert that USA culture, from inception to present, does NOT lend itself to such. A tyranny of the majority would have to be profound majority to re-cast things in a fascist mold given our system. And yes, it is the cultural difference above all that spells the difference.

Different places, with different traditions and cultural views HAVE taken the "boot on the neck" approach and used it successfully for decades at a stretch. That is why I expressed myself as I did -- I am not going to claim that I am so knowledgeable of your culture that I could judge the rightness of such laws in that context. I only expressed reservations.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...
If you assume for a minute that Trump would establish a similar system when elected and have around 50% of the voting population backing him up, where would the armed rebellion come from? The democratic gun control supporters? If those Trump supporters then supported the right of store owners to reject muslim customers for example, and then after two years, Trump and congress would pass a law banning muslims from entering shopping malls because it's just too dangerous to have them there and so on...perhaps they'd have to wear an armband with a crescent on it, too...
You think that could never happen? I would surely hope so, but I'm not so sure....

You might be surprised....

Link (http://www.gallup.com/poll/21496/gun-ownership-higher-among-republicans-than-democrats.aspx)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The majority of the people who armed themselves could be supporters of the fascist government rather than opponents of it, lessening or removing the need for military intervention.

Mathematically possible, but would hinge on a cultural "sea-change" that seems exceedingly improbable.

[Husar]

I cannot argue that what you say is impossible. I can assert that USA culture, from inception to present, does NOT lend itself to such. A tyranny of the majority would have to be profound majority to re-cast things in a fascist mold given our system. And yes, it is the cultural difference above all that spells the difference.

Different places, with different traditions and cultural views HAVE taken the "boot on the neck" approach and used it successfully for decades at a stretch. That is why I expressed myself as I did -- I am not going to claim that I am so knowledgeable of your culture that I could judge the rightness of such laws in that context. I only expressed reservations.

I don't think we have much of a "boot on the neck" approach, and I would even agree that our ban of Nazi symbols and the likes is probably a bit outdated and/or just makes them organize in secret and hide behind statements that are more tame than what they really mean.
On the other hand though, a democratic society should defend its democracy and sometimes a rising tide can be stemmed with a ban, or can it not? I mean that in the sense of "evil happens because good people watch and do nothing against it". I don't think Hitler could get elected in the USA tomorrow, it always starts small and it is often something basic like fear that convinces people to support it until it is too late and they fear what they supported...

I mean the tactics to convince people to hate others have been tested in US schools as well and no culture prevented the students from going along with them. See also the internement of the Japanese during WW2. It's almost as though culture doesn't count for anything once you appeal to the lizard-part of the brain. ~;)

In general I think the differences between modern Germany and the USA are not so big. Surely there are plenty of details that are different and the USA are ahead on quite a few curves, but in the end our modern constitution was co-authored by Americans and in terms of business and everyday life, well, we both have what we call "Western culture" and a lot of trends from the US swap over here sooner or later while you also copy some of ours, like the Oktoberfest. Not to forget that many of the products we buy are sort of international. So when I say something like that could happen in the US, I think it could happen anywhere. The question is just, should the government crack down on a movement once it becomes large enough to threaten the democratic constitution or is it more democratic to have a country democratically turned into a dictatorship by popular vote? In Germany, a party that runs on the idea of abolishing our democratic constitution can be banned.

The question was just whether you'd think it would be more democratic to allow them to get elected and then abolish democracy based on "60% of the population voted for it" for example? It's a bit of an extreme example, I'm aware, but some would say that this is what happened in Turkey, Erdogan got reelected several times and slowly changed the country into a different one where he "accidentally" holds more power than before.

I'm not feeling in any way bad about what you said, I just want your philosophical view of sorts on whether you'd think such a tyranny of the majority should be stopped by harsher measures if necessary or whether you think it should be allowed to run its course.
I'm also sorry for writing so much. :hide:


You might be surprised....

Link (http://www.gallup.com/poll/21496/gun-ownership-higher-among-republicans-than-democrats.aspx)

That Republicans have more guns on average is not surprising at all. They they are more likely to kill innocent animals isn't either. ~;)

[Legs]

I see. You deny the results of a pivotal psychological experiment and simple logics ("what people do and what people say may not coincide"). Party on, dude.
Where on earth do you reach that conclusion from?
Do you understand that it cuts both ways?
Plus of course social desirabliity was very different in the 1930s than it is today

[Legs]

It's pretty baffling what's happening in Turkey (and Turkish organisations and communitiesin Europe) but it's another discussion, it's a matter of law and the guy who's house was searched didn't commit any crime, so it comes close to thought-policing, or already is really. You don't have to like him
Good grief, its a matter of law, it is illegal and he admitted doing it.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...That Republicans have more guns on average is not surprising at all. They they are more likely to kill innocent animals isn't either. ~;)

Scamp. You did note that quite a few Dems are pretty well armed as well.

[Husar]

Scamp. You did note that quite a few Dems are pretty well armed as well.

Of course, but even that wasn't surprising because on the one hand I know a little bit about US society and on the other hand I would like to own guns myself, despite thinking it's probably not a good idea... :sweatdrop:

[Papewaio]

I cannot argue that what you say is impossible. I can assert that USA culture, from inception to present, does NOT lend itself to such. A tyranny of the majority would have to be profound majority to re-cast things in a fascist mold given our system. And yes, it is the cultural difference above all that spells the difference.

Different places, with different traditions and cultural views HAVE taken the "boot on the neck" approach and used it successfully for decades at a stretch. That is why I expressed myself as I did -- I am not going to claim that I am so knowledgeable of your culture that I could judge the rightness of such laws in that context. I only expressed reservations.

I'm not convinced this is as true as we would like it to be. At inception the U.S. had slavery, it had a bloody civil war, various fiddling with elections in South America, racial segregation, and most closest to the current situation was the era of Joseph McCarthy.

Just replace Joseph McCarthy rhetoric of Reds with Muslims and the current situation could easily devolve into a similar situation.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'm not convinced this is as true as we would like it to be. At inception the U.S. had slavery, it had a bloody civil war, various fiddling with elections in South America, racial segregation, and most closest to the current situation was the era of Joseph McCarthy.

Just replace Joseph McCarthy rhetoric of Reds with Muslims and the current situation could easily devolve into a similar situation.


Yet forces struggled throughout the history of the republic to right those injustices, even at the cost of 600k+ dead. We have our demagogues (Trump, Coughlin, Long) and they do enjoy success for a time but there is too much cultural pull towards individual rights and liberties for it too last. May take us longer than it should in terms of ideal morality choices to correct our problems....but we do.

McCarthy was an opportunist who did a good bit of fear-mongering to make himself a "player." That too faded when the public found him going too far.

Though it should be noted that he was actually a lot more accurate in his predictions that we were riddled by the Chekists than modern sensibilities like to recall. Once the CCCP stopped being a going concern, their old records (http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/15223-the-real-mccarthy-record) were quite revealing.

[Hooahguy]

Watch yourselves Gentlemen. That video about the people who had their houses raided came too close to advocating the works of a Holocaust denier for comfort so I decided to delete it from this thread. In the future, refrain from posting such things.

:bow:

[Gilrandir]

Watch yourselves Gentlemen.

Chauvinism!! What if there are some ladies around here?

[Fragony]

Fine but that was not what was in there, guy just liked a picture

[Legs]

Fine but that was not what was in there, guy just liked a picture
False.
As was pointed out to another person who made that claim, the video proves that to not be true in the first 10 minutes.

[Fragony]

Well it has been deleted so I'm not in plain sight anymore phew. There are no more than 10 minutes that is roughly how long the interview is. And it isn't there.

[Greyblades]

Watch yourselves Gentlemen. That video about the people who had their houses raided came too close to advocating the works of a Holocaust denier for comfort so I decided to delete it from this thread. In the future, refrain from posting such things.

:bow:
You might want to update the FAQ, for I was under the impression that "Any subject is open for discussion in the Backroom"

The main reason I come here and not elsewhere is because we are allowed to discuss political issue without being interfered by mods using thier powers to suppress a political viewpoint. The deletion is an extreme overreaction and if this is a sign of a change in the way this board is moderated then I will lose my main reason to stay.

[Gilrandir]

I will lose my main reason to stay.

Somehow the British are repeating themselves. After Bexit we will witness Greyblaxit?

[Fragony]

Kinda torn on it, should be some limits, you can have a nazi-forum in no-time, if someone really feels the need to deny the holocaust it belongs in the monestary I think. How it's treated if someone does here.

[Greyblades]

Cut out a man's tounge you do not prove him wrong, you prove you are scared of what he has to say.

Principle aside this was an overreaction, a 5 second reference by a noted crazy in an 100 minute interview with said crazy does not make it a video promoting holocaust denial and deleting it is the same type of kneejerk overreaction by local authority that I posted the video to criticize.

Somehow the British are repeating themselves. After Bexit we will witness Greyblaxit?

The British and thier offshoots have come to abhor bowing to the interests of unelected officials in foreign countries, I'd think you'd be more sympathetic considering your nation's recent history.

[Gilrandir]

The British and thier offshoots have come to abhor bowing to the interests of unelected officials in foreign countries, I'd think you'd be more sympathetic considering your nation's recent history.


What about the elected officials? Is it not that abhorrent to bow to such?

Generally, you are overestimating your fellow countrymen. They did and do a lot of nasty things which you deem contrary to their national character.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/bank-of-england/10213988/Never-mind-the-Czech-gold-the-Nazis-stole....html

[Greyblades]

Apparantly a nation's character needs 100% adheirance to count now.

It's wierd seeing a man who spends years railing against Putin make such a 180 when it comes to the european commission.

[Gilrandir]

Apparantly a nation's character needs 100% adheirance to count now.

I strongly object to overgeneralizations of the kind "the British abhor ..." or "the British like ...". Even people in one apartment block have diverse opinions and preferences to say nothing of the whole nation where one can always find those who go against the general trend and still consider themselves belonging to the nation. How can you deduce that "the Britsh abhor bowing to the interests of unelected officials in foreign countries" seeing the results of the Brexit referendum? Are those 46.6% not British? Or are they wrong British?

And I object even more to attempts to squeeze such vague notions as national character into rigid figures or gauge the adherence to it by percentage.



It's wierd seeing a man who spends years railing against Putin make such a 180 when it comes to the european commission.

Did the European commission annex Wales and invade the Highlands? Does the European commission support the Scottish separatists with money and weapons? When you compare Putin to the European commission you know nothing, Jon Snow.

[Fragony]

Immigration thread is getting kinda interesting, thw V4 countries basicly told the childless mutti that she should solve her own problems after her islamic birdcall. The v4 countries have zero interest in fixing things for her and will veto against anything the EU- I mean the childless mutti demands that they should. Eastern European countries don't like ex-stasi's and it shows, critisism as harsh as the childless mutti got is prettty spectacular, really reaaly harsh, and everything in her empty eyes showed nothing but emptiness.

When will the Germans get rid of this mentally unstable person?

It's so simple, build a fence to protect borders. I got a perfect solution for shelter for immigrants who are already here. The EU building in Strasbourgh isn't exactly short on living very very good. There are more than 3000 empty apartments, free restaurants, a whole shopping mall, unavailaileble for us but it's there, perfect place I'd say. But that isn't going to happen is it, you first have to have Junckers slime or whatever it iis drippng from your face. Can that guy get anymore vulgar. I like good manners, and that headcrab doesn't qualify

[Husar]

When will the Germans get rid of this mentally unstable person?

You're really close to convincing me that I should vote for her in the next elections.
And to answer your question, that usually happens or doesn'r happen by voting, for which there are certain points in time.
You can ask even more often until then and not much will happen, or are you insinuating that one should use other measures?
I hope not, I thought you were a nice person...

Merkel and Clinton could bring more flower power to the world.

[Fragony]

Of course I don't mean what you are hinting at.

And Clinton bringing flower-power lol, sure Hussie

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...When you compare Putin to the European commission you know nothing, Jon Snow.

Actually, I've always thought of 'blades wearing a black leather duster with neck scarf and wielding an ashanderei...though perhaps that is just me.

[Hooahguy]

You might want to update the FAQ, for I was under the impression that "Any subject is open for discussion in the Backroom"

The main reason I come here and not elsewhere is because we are allowed to discuss political issue without being interfered by mods using thier powers to suppress a political viewpoint. The deletion is an extreme overreaction and if this is a sign of a change in the way this board is moderated then I will lose my main reason to stay.
As moderator I felt it better to delete the video to stay on the safe side. Overreaction on my part? Perhaps, but you have also been here long enough to know this is a rare occurrence so I feel you might be overreacting as well.

[Greyblades]

As moderator I felt it better to delete the video to stay on the safe side.
Safe side of what? What rule does it break?

[Fragony]

Don't see it either but it isn't a democracy here, we were at a dead end (olol) anyway. Thread can as well be closed.

[Husar]

Safe side of what? What rule does it break?


knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Posting of copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you or by The Org, is discouraged. The Org expects its patrons to remain civil even in the face of disagreements. Any kind of "flaming", slurs, or insults -- addressed to either an individual or a group -- is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times.

One could say that a holocaust denial is usually inaccurate, hateful and used to harass people, it is also against a law.
And as if that weren't enough, it is an insult addressed to a group that is very inflammatory.

Whether you see it that way or not, moderators have often deleted certain inflammatory content to prevent fights and to be on the safe side.

[Fragony]

One could say that a holocaust denial is usually inaccurate, hateful and used to harass people, it is also against a law.
And as if that weren't enough, it is an insult addressed to a group that is very inflammatory.

Whether you see it that way or not, moderators have often deleted certain inflammatory content to prevent fights and to be on the safe side.

That wasn't in the link though. It was a closed facebook-account for nazi-sympathisers. Why would want to I don't know, but you can sack the houses of just about all aristocracy in Europe if you insist.

[Husar]

That wasn't in the link though. It was a closed facebook-account for nazi-sympathisers. Why would want to I don't know, but you can sack the houses of just about all aristocracy in Europe if you insist.

Why do I get the feeling that there was more than one link?

[Gilrandir]

Safe side of what?

Safe side of the force.

[Legs]

Why do I get the feeling that there was more than one link?

Tricky one eh.
Why is there the impression that there must be two links.
Is it because people are denying the actual content of the one link that was posted therefore the logical explaination to make those denials true would be that there must have really been two videos which have both been deleted.

I am sure the moderator who deleted the single link because of its contents can clarify that it was one link and that it contained the little details which some are still claiming were not present, he could probably also clear it up by referencing the times of each detail which people deny are present in the interview, sort of like 9:20, 10:30 , 43:10, 54:30 kind of thing~;)

[Legs]

That wasn't in the link though. It was a closed facebook-account for nazi-sympathisers. Why would want to I don't know, but you can sack the houses of just about all aristocracy in Europe if you insist.
How on earth could you know that, you said the interview was only 10 minutes long, so obviously you are comletely unaware of its contents