Diplomacy woes

[Musashi]

A letter from His Royal Majesty, Yaroslav I, Grand Prince of the North, Ruler of the people of Novgorod to Emperor Constantine of Byzantium:

My oldest friend,

I regret that I have lived to see this day. Your father would disown you in shame if he could see what you are doing. When the Egyptian sultan's forces pushed your people into exile, it would have been easy for my father to take advantage of the situation and the Byzantine empire would be but a memory, but he refrained because of the ties of honor which bound our two nations. When all seemed lost for Byzantium, it was we, the people of Novgorod who bore the brunt of Egypt's wrath for your sake, and gave your people the time you required to rebuild. On no less than three occassions, your father's forces came to the aid of besieged Novgorod keeps.

When Byzantium regained it's footing, the men of Novgorod were by the side of the Byzantine armies in forcing the barbarous Egyptians back to their homelands. I thought my father was a fool for not seizing the moment when the Egyptians offered us an alliance, but he did the politically difficult thing and stood by his allies. During the long campaign against the seemingly unstoppable forces of Egypt, I came to respect the wisdom in his decision to find strength in honorable action rather than political expediency. I am saddened to see you did not learn the same lesson from your most honorable father.

I myself led my father's armies against the saracens and bore witness to the strength our unified front provided for us. Together my forces and yours drove the Egyptians all the way back to Egypt. I rode into battle beside you when we took Constantinople back for Byzantium, your sister is my wife How can you cast aside such experiences?

When my father died, I vowed I would uphold our two nations' honorable history of friendship and trust. As the end of our war with Egypt neared, I foresaw our united front sweeping westward to end the Papist heresy and lay all of christendom at your feet as the rightful head of the church, but I see now that you had intended all along to stab my nation in the back like a craven knave. I cannot believe you would dishonorably cast aside our history for the sake of political expediency. The saddest thing of all is that you are mistaken if you think that the fact that my armies happened to be finishing off the last remnants of the Egyptians' rabble in Darkest Africa or the momentary annoyance caused me by the horde of savages which have appeared from the east will in any way affect my ability to squash you like an insect.

Good day.

PS: I want my Varangian Guard back.

[LadyAnn]

Nice letter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I will write to the Pope one day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Annie

[Gregoshi]

A letter from Emperor Constantine of Byzantium to His Royal Majesty, Yaroslav I, Grand Prince of the North, Ruler of yada yada yada:

Dear former friend:

Bite me.

PS: Come and get them baby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Sorry Musashi, I feel very AI-ish at the moment. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Very nice letter though, very nice indeed.

[Musashi]

Sorry to go all in character there, just having the Byz come after me after literally hundreds of years of lockstep cooperation against the heathens and heretics was more than a little disconcerting. It's not that I can't deal with the attack, I'm actually in a position where I could pretty much handle every other faction in the game all at once right now, but we were partners, I decided not to turn on them more than once when it would have been the smart thing to do, just out of sentimental attachment to Byzantium, and it's just annoying that the AI acts the way it does ya know?

Oh for a cooperative multiplayer campaign mode, or at least AI rulers who actually act like rational human beings.

-Musashi

[Gregoshi]

Don't apologize for going "in character" Musashi The letter was great. I can understand your feelings on the matter. As eloquently as you plead your case, it means nothing to the AI. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif Sometimes you want, but not necessarily need, a buddy at your side as you fight against the rest of the world.

I look forward to your next "in character" post.

[Spetulhu]

Agreed, the Byzantines are difficult neighbors. The AIs idea of 'expedient' isn`t always so hot either. In my last Egyptian GA game the Turks managed to get into a fight with both the Byz and me. The Byz emperor offered me an alliance right away, and I accepted. I`d say that`s all that saved his eastern provinces from the Turks So our alliance destroys the Turks and divides the spoils, and I even make sure I dont keep any of his Homelands. Five years later he attacks me, just for the hell of it I suppose. Sure wasn`t any reason for it I could see. Next round Saladin conquered Constantinople in a magnificent amphibious landing, and then my other commanders moved up from the east, taking all those provinces. Idiots

[The Last Emperor]

THe AI isn't very smart with their diplomacy. U know they can't be trusted and they will attack u randomly even when they can't win in the long run. I just wish diplomacy isn't so simple in the game...btw its quite useless since all u get is just an additional flag beside ur faction's coat of arms.

[Swoosh So]

Nice thread shouldent have read it tho i should be working http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Swooooooshooooooowl

[A.Saturnus]

It`s ok that old friends fall into your back, but it shouldn`t happen all the time. I have often held to a alliance just for sentimental feeling but every AI player betrays you sooner or later even if you have influence as hell and they can never win. Every AI player should have random stats defining things like "trustworthy" or "traitor".

P.S. there should be an award on the board for telling compelling stories and you, Musashi, should get it.

[jas]

This is my opinion is a serious failing of the strategic part of the game, and one of the things that most reduces the feeling of immersion in the game. It didn't matter so much in Shogun where you knew that everyone was out to kill everyone else, but here a long history of cooperation between nations should count. Nothing will make you realise you're just operating a piece of software (rather than running an empire) quicker than having your best buddy randomly backstab you, with no possible benefit to them.

I'd also like to see more ways in which countries can cooperate, eg: handing over provinces, offering money, giving units or sending troops to assist etc. More religious solidarity would be good too. Why won't the French and HRE give me (Italians) an alliance or even a ceasefire when I'm busy saving their butts by kicking the Elmos out of Europe, just like the Pope asked, plus the fact that both I and the Elmos could easily crush them (and the Elmos have been trying really hard to)? I can imagine the scene:

General: "The Italians have offered us a ceasefire, my liege"
French King: "We do not trust the Italians."
General: "But the Moors are crushing us, boss We cannot fight a war on two fronts and the Italians have sworn to the Pope to drive the infidel from Europe and protect Christianity wherever it can be found .. it is our only hope"
French King: "Nah, stuff it, let's all just die."

It's the improvements in the strategic game that make me prefer MTW to STW. STW felt mostly like just a loose framework in which to have battles. In MTW, the battles mean more, the participants have a history, you know the fate of empires may depend upon them. Improving the strategic game would be reflect on the tactical game also. Just my two florins on something that has been bugging me for a while now.

[maroule]

Quote[/b] (Musashi @ Dec. 03 2002,00:56)]Sorry to go all in character there, just having the Byz come after me after literally hundreds of years of lockstep cooperation against the heathens and heretics was more than a little disconcerting. It's not that I can't deal with the attack, I'm actually in a position where I could pretty much handle every other faction in the game all at once right now, but we were partners, I decided not to turn on them more than once when it would have been the smart thing to do, just out of sentimental attachment to Byzantium, and it's just annoying that the AI acts the way it does ya know?

Oh for a cooperative multiplayer campaign mode, or at least AI rulers who actually act like rational human beings.

-Musashi
great letter musashi, but if the AI behaved more like humans, well, it would probably stab you in the back even more...

I worked in Ethiopia for a bit, where the prime minister (melawi) and the president of Erythrea where old friends from their guerilla days, together fighting the marxist regime. A few years after each seizing power in their respective country (great fairy tale), they went at each other's throat for no reason (a few hundred of km of desert near Tigray). The war between Erythrea and Ethiopia brought both countries near collapse and brought absolutely no gains to any.

So, jas and Mus, although I understand your dispointment and share a good deal of it, that's what humans do to each other, and the AI gets it right in this case...

[A.Saturnus]

That may be, but fact is that most of the time in history alliances didn`t break for nothing, old friends did engage just for fun (well, for money and land, that`s something different) and declining empires grabbed every straw. Betrayal is a normal thing, but there`s no real betrayal if everyone would expect it all the time (you can the a Kantianse moral argument in this, if you like to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

[Cid]

Musashi,

I feel like sending that letter in lieu of a Christmas card to about 50 business aquaintences.

Diplomacy is definately my pet piev and the only tiresome feature of the game. Not only is it frequently irrational but it's just as frequently so damned predictable.

At the beginning of the game everything's hail fellow well met. As soon as I take Flanders (as English) it's group snub time. A marriage refusal is also usually a dead giveaway that you're going to be attacked by you're "buddy" as soon as he gets the chance.And the whole world starts messing with your gene pool Chinless perverts are pretty much a given and that V&V aspect, probably the most important, is completely out of the players control.

I've bailed the Pope out about 15 times in my current game and basically been his step and fetch it for 60 years. Now he's sending assassins all over the place. What's the point of GA by the way if every faction just spends their time trying to knock everyone else off anyway as in Conquest mode?

Tweaking these things and addressing the problems that virtually EVERYONE's complaining about can't be that hard...can it?

"The Turks are marching on Vienna and you're down to 1 province.Why can't we just get along?"
"Because you piss me off"