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View Full Version : Javelins... Learn to love them.



Kraxis
12-02-2002, 16:29
Javelins, we either hate them or love them. I love them.
Everybody are entitled to have their own oppinions on them, but I'll try to let the people who have had bad experiences with them get a second chance to evaluate them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

There are four javelins in the game, Kerns, Murabitin, Jinettes and the ever scarce Almugharvars. The first two are basically the same, a carrier for javelins while the other two can do a lot of other stuff as well.

How to use the javelins:

I will only discuss how to use their ranged capabilities.
First lesson: Turn off the Skirmish or else the Javelins will retreat too soon.
It all depends on the situation, on defence:
There are two major tactics that are easy to learn, the direct support and the more effective and harder flanking attack.
The direct support involves you putting the javelins a step or two behind your main line of infantry, prefrably spears as their combat is very slow. When engaged with the enemy move up to the javelins, carefully and that is important so as to not be in a situation where only half the unit is in range. Be sure to move the unit up the rear rank of the front line and then let loose a hail of javelins. This can be devastating for the enemy unit, but remember that often a javelin or two will land in your own unit, so don't use this tactic to lower the enemy Morale, this is simply for a quick reduction of enemy numbers and it works wonders. There is almost nothing the enemy can do to stop this tactic. But remember to move the javelins up carefully...
This tactic is great using the Kerns and Murabitin because they are protected from the enemy troops.

The flank attack is a little more tricky and far more risky. Have the javelins positioned on the flank, perhaps even far out, what is important is to make them appear unimportant and thus not worth bothering with.
When the enemy has closed with you and possibly engaged all his troops, but this is not too important, just make sure that the free enemy units are focussed at other objectives, never move the javelins inbetween enemy units
When you are moving in the javelins find the heaviest/most expensive enemy units and move up behind it carefully and let loose the flying phalanx.
Why not charge in? Javelins are not the strongest units in combat, not even a charge in to the rear of a heavy unit will do much damage, the javelins will do much more damage over time while doing as much damage to Morale. Further the javelins themselves makes sure you don't lose any men yourself. When out of javelins charge the weakest enemy unit in their line, you might just deal them the Moraleblow they need to to rout, don't charge the best enemies, they can most likely hold up to your weak javelins in the rear.
Should the enemy pull units out to deal with javelins, be happy and turn on the Skirmish, for now you are in the great situation of having either pulled out an enemy unit that can't catch you or a unit that is wastly more expensive or that can be defeated in combat. All in all you win almost no matter what.
If the enemy has plenty of reserves not yet comitted contend yourself with pelting the enemy flanks and don't draw in the enemy reserves.
Jinettes and Almugharvars are great for this tactic due to either speed or melee capabilities.

On attack:
It is harder, but basically you can use the same two tactics. Though you have to be more careful of the enemy contingent of archers.
If the enemy if positioned on a steep slope don't go for the Direct Support, it simply won't give enough help due to range, it might even hurt you as much as the enemy because of FF.
Move out the javelins, but not as far as on defence because the the enemy has control of the terrain and you might need the javelins very fast, also don'y move them too far out front because of enemy archers or quick enemy cav. Try to lure out the enemy heavies with other units, perhaps archers, and then hold them with spears while the javelins do their work.

It is important to always know what the enemy army is composed of, high ratios of archers and light cav can be deadly for your javelins, so in those cases the Direct Support is best, but if you get the chance to pelt a JHI or a king, it might be worth to sacrifice the javelins. Just be wary that they don't rout through you own units.

It is always important to consider the javelins expendable, they are rather cheap and can quickly be replaced, also if they get Valours that is good, but hardly as important as more direct melee troops, so experienced javelins are not so important to protect.
Give them the time they need to be effective and you have success on your hands. Neglect them and they will be a liability. Make sure they don't attract enemy attention, for they are not fighters and need to be free to do damage, never try to throw the javelins on enemies that advance on them unless you have a major height advantage, instead retreat them to your lines or away if you can't protect them. The game of movement is not their game, it is the game of mounted archers.

Javelins are perhaps the units with the greatest potential for destruction over time compared to their cost. They are even better than Naphtas due to their greater numbers and more ammo.

In MP javelins can be very hard to use, as most players will notice a unit roaming around their rear, but sometimes a player will not notice them. It is still much easier to use the Direct Support, but here it is much more important to it fast or else his greater numbers will defeat you. I can't help but think with a great smile on my face about my 4 Murabitin that really devastated my English enemies in an Early battle, as they killed the enemy Order Foot more or less.

malkuth
12-02-2002, 16:36
The death toll javs cause is amazing. makes archers look bad. They take out 6-or more per Volly.

Alrowan
12-02-2002, 16:44
i love them... simple

jinettes are still the best

HopAlongBunny
12-02-2002, 17:02
Thank you Kraxis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm going to have to give this a try; javelins have been nothing but cannon fodder for me so far...no unit can seem to resist running out to crush them.

I like the Egyptians due to their speed already, if I can get the javelins to work it could be awesome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The_Dude
12-02-2002, 17:12
Yes, good tatics, I will try them in my next campaign, thx

kyodai-britishbeef
12-02-2002, 17:24
i use the javalin units rgularly and use tham as kraxis says, in this way


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ spears
**** JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ **** hv inf / javs / hv inf

this is a good defencive formation , the heavy inf on the flanks is great for holding or can be used to flank , and when the javelins r also out of ammo, they can be moved out to flank or charge straight into the melee.

chunkynut
12-02-2002, 17:38
I use javalins alot when spanish. I will say a few things on the matter. Almugharvars aren't just bloody scarce, i truly haven't seen 1 unit of em

When using jinettes there speed and melee make them great on a rear assault. Bring em round behind the tough but defeatable AUM and let them empty themselves of javalins onto the engaged AUM. Then attack the rear and watch the AUMs run

I find myself, when spain, using 4-5 jinettes. 2 behind my lines 2 on the flanks (+ 1 heavy cav (royal knights)) ready to outmanoeuvre and rear assualt and a hidden heavy cav to run out and occupy the archers.

This normally gains the least deaths of my men and the most captured of their's. Not a very high killing tactic, seems to scare em to much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Kraxis
12-02-2002, 18:31
Yeah, I myself have only seen and hired one unit of Almugharvars and I never even got to use them before I deleted the savegame. The campaign was bugged due to patching. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Jinettes are more versatile than the other two (Almugharvars aer so scarce I don't really count them in), as they are cav and very fast. I usually treat them as light cav with javelins rather than mounted javelineers. But really, their javelins makes them very powerful.

Jaret
12-02-2002, 19:35
Lovely threat Kraxis. Pld.

One more use for Murabitin (other Javs too) :

When you have engaged the Enemy in an Archers Duell ...
Move up you Murabitin (with their large shields) and have them engage the enemy Archers with their Javelins. The Enemy Archers are concentrating on your Archers and even if some of them redirect their fire ... the Murabitin move fast and with their shields have an Armour of 3 vs. Arrows.
Since they don´t charge the enemy ... his Archers won´t skirmish away. Your Javelins will win that Archery Duell for you easily ( PS: Watch out for enemy Cavalry that might try to get rid of you Make those the next target for your Archers )

J.

LadyAnn
12-03-2002, 03:09
Learn to love Javelins? Now you talk like a true Sadist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

It works for a few first years, but when people can afford Pavise Crossbow or Pavise Arbalester, it becomes a moot point.

Anyways, I'll give it a try, why not?

Annie

Kraxis
12-03-2002, 04:13
Ok, Arbs are better, but they are boring... The javelins are great fun, just like horse archers.
I simply can't imagine anything more boring than an army of 8 Arbs 6 spears and 2 cav. But were those 8 arbs javelins, then you would face some spectacular situations and some great fun.

Sad Tomato
12-03-2002, 04:16
as the danes i used kerns and jinettes quite a bit.
the armour piercing capabilities of javelins make them very cost effective.
in melee, kerns don't appear to be much better than peasants but their javelins will take down heavy armoured units, a very useful capablity.
kerns are dirt cheap, i use them alot for garrison duty.
jinettes are more mobile, handy for the flanking attacks and general movement around the battle field.
normaly i had one unit of kerns or jinettes acompanying my armies where ever they were fighting.
another handy feature is these units handle desert fighting adequately, unlike the heavy armour units of western european factions.

deejayvee
12-03-2002, 04:26
Cheers for the tip. I'm one of the ones who never use Javelins because I didn't know how.

Now I'll be getting myself some Jinetttes

Katasaki Hirojima
12-03-2002, 05:41
Dammit, and I just got online to start this post m'self Ahwell, I'll share a few of my tactics with Kerns.

Now some of these tactics may not work because I made Kerns into a stronger 2/0 unit, but still just about every unit in the game hands their @$$ to them, just a little more slowly now.

1. King killers - Simple as dirt, draw the king out with one unit of kerns, with the other unit behind that one. The king attacks the Kerns, the Back Kerns hurl their Javelins. after 3 volles the king is dead. you trade 50 men for 15 Roayl Knights and a King. Well spent.

2. General Killers - Generals arn't as easyto engage, they are normally bigger though not always meaner, but numbers are A kerns worst enemy. Use flanking tactics like above or Direct support but this time use ALL of your Javelins, it takes most of the volleys to nail that general.

3. Offensive Lure - Say you see some units that you want to take out, but the enemy won't move'em and its armour is to strong for archers. Wellll, march a unit of Kerns right up to'em. THey've got two choices, charge or get slaughtered. Put'em on skirmish at the right moment and that enemy unit will chase those Kerns right into the perfect counter unit for that enemy unit. Then to add injury to insult the kerns will then turn around and throw Javs on them direct support style, without you telling them too.

4 Maximum kills - Try and bunch the enemy up into a big wad somewhere, even if that requires getting your troops in the same vulnerable posistion. Kerns do a TREMENDOUS amount of damage against packed and wadded troops, as in messy fights and bridge/castle fights. Those Javelins kill everything they touch, so 20+ kills are not unheard of in ONE VOLLEY.

LadyAnn
12-03-2002, 05:43
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Dec. 03 2002,04:13)]Ok, Arbs are better, but they are boring... The javelins are great fun, just like horse archers.
I simply can't imagine anything more boring than an army of 8 Arbs 6 spears and 2 cav. But were those 8 arbs javelins, then you would face some spectacular situations and some great fun.
Ah, but but ... the Sadists (def: those who derives pleasure from pain) always accuse other of being bored and unadventurous http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Annie
ps.: I was joking guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Ogre de Warrior
12-03-2002, 09:50
I love the Muri Infantry. In my 3rd campaign, I played the Almos. I had 3 units of Muri infantry and 3 units of Nubian spears (ugh) against a French Crusade that attacked me in Aragon. I was determined to make the french PAY for attacking me. I lined up the Muris and the Nubies (hehe, N00bs) together, with the spears just out in front. As expected, the cavarly charged, with the Knights Templar leading the way. I was like "Well, this isn't gonna take long, I know those stupid spearmen will route" They didn't have the chance. My Javs cut down at least 65% of the attacking cavalry before the spears engaged them. I lost the battle, I mean, I just couldn't hold out against the hordes of infantry, but I took every single one of their cavalry units with me, with the exception of the generals unit. I was damned proud of myself.

Sir Chauncy
12-03-2002, 12:04
Indeed Jinettes rule, I have said about how it is possible to eradicate superiour numbers with these tropps, because they can move so fast and handle themselves in melee they are great. And if you do ever have any trouble, just pull back and launch a few javelins. Job done.

Kraxis
12-03-2002, 14:49
Hirojima, I know about the Offensive Lure (good name). It can be used to great effect against enemy archers as well, just not so much with the Kerns (only 1 Armour and 0 Morale). It is a great way to force the hand of a defender. But that one has more to do with maneuvering than actually using the javelins so I left it out, so as people could experiment and find their own little tactics.
My guide is to be considered a startup guide, as jevelins hold so much potential I could use a whole day to post it all .

King David
12-03-2002, 16:47
My Roman Legions use them quite effectively in melee mode even against superior forces. Its especialy nice when you have a 200 man Centuri chuking Pilums(Javs) at the enemy.

MonkeyMan
12-03-2002, 21:46
Thanks Kraxis I'll have a go with them tonight, maybe i'll love them maybe i won't. I'll be back... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Kraxis
12-03-2002, 23:11
Quote[/b] (MonkeyMan @ Dec. 03 2002,14:46)]Thanks Kraxis I'll have a go with them tonight, maybe i'll love them maybe i won't. I'll be back... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
That is all one could ask for.

Musashi
12-04-2002, 00:15
Hmm, I still think their range is just too short. I rarely play any faction that uses them, but I still increased jav range from 1500 to 3000, which makes them a lot more fun to fight against when I'm attacking Spain or the Almohads.

Before I changed it those units were just cannon fodder for my units, now I have to actually take them into consideration, which makes things more interesting for me.

-Musashi

Satyr
12-04-2002, 02:38
As ALmo, I once faced an army of 14 jinette companies with 2 rks for support. I didn't have anyway to catch the jinettes and died a slow, horrible death.

hoom
12-04-2002, 14:43
How many rows should you use?
2/3/4???

Kraxis
12-04-2002, 17:44
Javelins have horrible accuracy anyway so a little worse accuracy from ranks doesn't really matter. I normally keep my javelins in the formation they come with.

But if you go for the Direct Support then I would advise you to spread them out to about 5/6 of the unit in front of them. That way you can make sure that any javelins to go too much to one side will still land within the enemy formation (given they are as big as yours).

Ohh yeah and Hirojima posted a good tactic I forgot about but use, as I would guess people would. I usually use my archers on bunched enemies unless there is a much more juicy target (such as lightly armoured general). But I would not actually put some my units into harms way to get the enemy bunched up (though bridges are good targets for javelins), if your unit routs it will most likely take your javelins with them and then you are not far from a massrout.

Sjakihata
12-04-2002, 18:20
Hi

yeah, thanks Kraxis cool advices and nice to have it on paper.

Exactly how many volleys can the javelins fire? (how much ammo)?

Lata..

Kraxis
12-04-2002, 18:29
Well, the foot javelins are said to have 4 in their stats and the Jinettes have 3. But in combat the javelineers seldomly manage to throw off all javelins in one volley, so expect about 5-6 volleys.