HRE, a few points on a campaign

[maroule]

There is no thread on the HRE in archives, and as I started a fun campaign with it, I thought I’d start one rolling (campaign GA / high / expert / patch).

The starting overall view is one of maximum vulnerability.
Geographically : spread out on many provinces with maximum number of adjacent provinces. Unlike the Spaniards or Almo who can block all land attacks with a few choke points, the HRE must basically defend all their starting provinces, which makes troop concentration a lot slower.
Financially : fairly bad as well, many low earning territories, and only one juicy province, Bavaria.
Diplomatically : many neighbours to visit and cater for, at one point in my campaign I had Aragon, France, England, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Italy, and 4 others quite close.
Militarily : no starting specific units (except the Swiss halberd), crap generals, and ‘crap’ is about the most positive comment you can come up with. I started seeing normal generals (3 stars, from heirs) after 50 years. Add to that almost no provinces that give bonus command stars.

The death kiss : a war on several front early on. Be polite with everybody early on, and go for consolidation in the first 30 years. Even rebel provinces will be difficult to keep then (Pomerania had a tendency to revolt on me). Cosy up to the Pope, since excommunication would sharpen your neighbours appetites. Remember that attacking one will cause the others to try their luck, on your back.

The upside now :
You’re in the middle of things, and strategic flexibility has never been truer. It’s a tight game to play, but you’ll be able to throw your weight on different fronts, and will never be blocked in your expansion plans.
Within an arm’s rich are 3 or 4 of the juiciest provinces : Flanders, Venice, and Denmark (Champagne and Ile de France are apetizing too, and taking them will effectively deprive the French of any significance). Later on will come powerful specific units, gothic foot knights, sergeants, the Swiss line of tough nut crackers, etc. With the patch, the ownership of Switzerland becomes significant, but you’ll need to pump up this tiny province mightily before churning out the goods. It’s worth it.

The trick : Initiative. You must be the one who decides when to attack, and who. Excommunicated powers are your prey of choice. Italy is enticing but will prove tough (top generals and Italian infantry, against which you have no answer). Go mercs whenever you can.

[DojoRat]

Pre-patch I always liked going for Denmark. You could take them out before the pope piped up. Now, their royal knights are tougher but I still think it's the way to go unless something opens up on another front. Sweden is a great prize and neither it nor Denmark expose you to any external threats. With the trade income they generate you can build a nice army to take advantage of warring or excomunicated neighbors.

[maroule]

it is indeed a viable strategy.

One trick is to wait for Denmark's finest (ie its cavalery under the form of an endless string of heirs) to go places (they like to invade England at times) and then attack. It will take time for them to build ports and come back, and with some navy you can block them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Al Qasim Hussein]

One warning about Denmark for the HRE: if the unthinkable should happen and you don't take it, you can't get them for ten years thanks to his Papalness.

My strategy has been to save Denmark for later (they never seem to invade Saxony) and hit one of the big boys. Italy and France make juicy targets as the farming and trade can be quite good in both nations. Sure, the pope will excommunicate you. But this early in the game your Emperor will be close enough to all your provinces that it won't be game destroying, and once you get some good heirs out there you can just sacrifice the Emperor and the next fellow will be in good standing w/ da Pope. I usually hit Italy first, more money in trade and more coastal provinces, and the Pope (usually your only neighbor) isn't big on invading you. Then go on defence, make money for a while, wait out the pope or your emperor's lifespan (or again, force the issue if necessary... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) and get your good standing back. Then attacking Denmark is no problem.

Of course, while excommunicated you could always just attack Denmark w/out penalty... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[solypsist]

I haven't played the HRE, but I have played some of the other Catholic factions and the biggest problem I can see with such a sprawlng empire like the Germans, is the Crusades that are constantly being lobbed through your territories. The Enlgish probably have little to worry about with these, being the "westernmost" faction, but after playing as the Italians, I finally had to cut loose and take out the French because I was sick of those French crusades constantly draining me of fighting me. I can only imagine how much worse it can be playing as the HRE.

[maroule]

true, crusades, French mainly, keep draining you as they wander through your autobahns.

[Ktonos]

I am currently playing my 4th and longest (2 1/2 months)campaign and I am in control of the Germans. Crusades where a mediocre problem during the early period. French, Spanish and English crusades asking permission all the time while in war with me. Crusades drain my dfrontier garrisons and weaken my defences against the above factions. Then I eliminitated the Pope and I settled up.

[Grifman]

Some hints after starting a couple of HRE campaigns:

1) As noted you are surrounded by enemies and opportunities - choose them wisely that you may prosper http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

2) Yes, you are threatened, but you can threaten others more. Your core provinces - Switzerland, Swabia, Franconia, Austria, Bohemia and Burgundy are either centrally protected or can be protected easily as follows.

3) First off, know your enemies. Early on, those are the Italians and French. They always are the first to attack - the Danes, Poles and Hungarians are too weak at first and usually only attack later, if at all.

4) However, you are more of a threat to the French and Italians than they are to you. Station your first two armies in Burgundy (next to Isle de France) and Austria (next to Venice). This protects two of you outer core provinces, but puts their capitals under immediate threat. They'll have to wait awhile to build up enough force to protect those provinces AND attack you elsewhere.

As you soon as you can build up and army for Bohemia and Saxony, protecting them from Denmark and Hungary. They don't attack immediately, but if you wait long enough and look weak enough, they will come. The Poles are usually too busy stupidly invading Pomerania and getting thrown out by the massive rebellions there to do much else early on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

5) Usually the French will attack Lorraine, leaving Isle de France weak. Invade it, pillage it, burn it to the ground. Then if you can take Flanders and keep it. No matter what else the French now do, you have effectively crippled them and taken them out of the game.

6) At some point, maybe in the French war, the Italians will also attack, usually Provence, which I weakly garrison. You may have to temporarily give it up but that's ok, YOUR goal is Venice. Mass your forces and take it - again, the Italians are now effectively crippled and you can slowly take them out.

7) In fact, per above, I encourage the AIs to attack Lorraine and Provence. Early on, about half the time, the AIs forces are too weak, and the provinces rebell. You can get some nice armies of loyalist rebels to join for free if things do your way I really don't mind those invasions at all oftentimes.

8) If the Danes attack, move quickly before the Pope gets mad and take Denmark - it's nice province, plus gets you to Sweden.

9) The HRE provinces are pretty poor early on. I try to focus production development early on in Switzerland, Franconia and Bohemia (both have iron) and Saxony. The other provinces only gets agriculture (up to about 60%) and mines early on to try and get money going. But I will build Friesland into a naval base to get trade going early on. You want to be sure to hold on to your production provinces if invaded early on - the others don't suffer as much loss with just ag and mining upgrades.

Hope this helps. Worked twice for me so far.

Grifman

[Grifman]

Also, another hint based upon a bad, bad experience which seems more so with the HRE than other factions I have played:

Constantly check your generals/heirs' loyalty. I had a civil war break out, rebels with 2,000 troops, 2 provinces, while the king had 10,000 troops, all the other provinces. I think, ok, I'll take the king, I can handle this. Bah

One turn later, ANOTHER civil war breaks out The loyal forces split again, 50/50. I'm doomed at that point . . .

Reloaded, tried to figure out what happened. Well, duh The king had three sons, one with two loyalty shield, two sons with NO shields. They were civil wars just waiting to happen - and that is exactly what happened So, as Emperor, I now keep, as they say, my enemies close to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Grifman

[sassbarman]

Yep hre is the hardest faction to play by far and the only campaigne thus far I quit on. Was playing on early, france attacked me 7 years into the campaigne almost no build up time, soon afterward hungry, denmark and you guest it italy all took shots at me. After teaching the french a lesson and eliminating them I finished off denmark and reduced italy and the hungarians to one province. Then thinking I might now have a little bit of breathing room enter a massive sicilian army of 2000 men with 6 and 7 star generals at the helm and oh yes lets not forget my excommunication and the consequent 3000 man spanish crusade hell bent for my most developed province of franconia. Sorry if I sound bitter it was a difficult pill to swallow hitting that end game button.

[maroule]

ouch, sassbarman, that must hurt
I've lost my first campaign recently too, that's why I love the patch by the way (as the turks, high expert GA, got squeezed between mongols and egyptians as numerous as a locust invasion - managed to survive but was too crippled)

Grifman describes almost exactly my current campaign, where I've taken France and Italy out and had to fight of a very aggressive sicilian, who finally got punished by a pope rebellion (they had invaded it). Very fun, but now I'm more or less secure so it should be quiet and a bit more boring

I'll keep my kids close to me, though...