1984 outrage thread: Cameron's latest comment

[Rhyfelwyr]

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone." (http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/this-is-the-creepiest-thing-david-cameron-has-ever-said--e1q_01xlZZ)

Given that the centre-right is supposed to be about small government and personal responsibility, how do the more conservative orgahs feel about this?

Cameron has been going on about "British values", especially in schools, for a while now. The thing is if you look at his attacks on Christian schools, it becomes clear there is nothing conservative about them. He's twisting British values to attack people of any faith that he doesn't deem to be tolerant or inclusive enough.

It is creepy and totalitarian, even if only on a small scale for now. I don't think it's good that politicians feel they can say that sort of thing.

[Husar]

He wants to keep terrorists out, restrict immigration and enforce British values on everyone, how is that not a good thing*?

*according to a lot of the comments I have seen in immigration threads lately

[Fragony]

Do I really have to answer, you know what it's about

[Greyblades]

What a exemplar of unbiased journalism your source is. ~:rolleyes:

Also it's rather content deficient. Lets use a proper news outlet like, say, this one (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/13/counter-terrorism-bill-extremism-disruption-orders-david-cameron)?

My response is basically the customary retort of a) you're over-reacting and b) the other guy wanted the same/worse (http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/04/free-speech-campaigners-concerned-by-ed-milibands-vow-to-ban-islamophobia--without-defining-what-he-means) just pointed at a different section of the population, ie the bit containing me.

The stated intent is resonable and the declared course of action is warranted: something needs to be done and this might be it (will have to actuially see the actual bill before declaring either way) the only concern is if we can trust cameron's government to not abuse the powers it gives.

Obviously we can't trust anyone with that power but action needs to be taken and the conservatives are the least likely to use the power it in a way that I would disapprove of (save for maybe the greens) so I cannot object.

Note that my endorsment comes less out of trust of the conservatives and more a deep mistrust of everyone else, my second link tells us what labour would do with such powers and I shudder to think of Farage's hangers on getting such free reign.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Just take the comment at its face value. It's a horrid sentiment and should be smacked down. The fact that Miliband wanted something worse doesn't excuse it.

The context is obviously tackling Islamic extremism, but I don't agree that this is the right response - once you give a government the power to enforce certain values (beyond respecting the law) onto its people, then those powers will be there to be used against anyone. This should be clear from the fact that one of the first targets were Christian schools (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11414052/Legal-battle-looms-over-Christian-school-closure-in-British-Values-row.html) that were teaching traditional British values (not the ultra-liberal and wrongly-called "British values" Cameron is attempting to force on everybody).

[rvg]

I'll be seeing you folks on this side of the pond.

[Kadagar_AV]

Just take the comment at its face value. It's a horrid sentiment and should be smacked down. The fact that Miliband wanted something worse doesn't excuse it.

The context is obviously tackling Islamic extremism, but I don't agree that this is the right response - once you give a government the power to enforce certain values (beyond respecting the law) onto its people, then those powers will be there to be used against anyone. This should be clear from the fact that one of the first targets were Christian schools (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11414052/Legal-battle-looms-over-Christian-school-closure-in-British-Values-row.html) that were teaching traditional British values (not the ultra-liberal and wrongly-called "British values" Cameron is attempting to force on everybody).

As to the bolded part- exactly.

[Greyblades]

Just take the comment at its face value. It's a horrid sentiment and should be smacked down. The fact that Miliband wanted something worse doesn't excuse it.

The context is obviously tackling Islamic extremism, but I don't agree that this is the right response - once you give a government the power to enforce certain values (beyond respecting the law) onto its people, then those powers will be there to be used against anyone. This should be clear from the fact that one of the first targets were Christian schools (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11414052/Legal-battle-looms-over-Christian-school-closure-in-British-Values-row.html) that were teaching traditional British values (not the ultra-liberal and wrongly-called "British values" Cameron is attempting to force on everybody).

Wow that's... not that bad, the government is fully justified to withdraw funding from schools that do not follow the proscribed curriculum, which durham was doing by teaching creationism as fact. (http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2015-02-28/durham-free-school-faces-fresh-criticism-over-creationism-worksheet/)

[Fragony]

Just take the comment at its face value. It's a horrid sentiment and should be smacked down. The fact that Miliband wanted something worse doesn't excuse it.

The context is obviously tackling Islamic extremism, but I don't agree that this is the right response - once you give a government the power to enforce certain values (beyond respecting the law) onto its people, then those powers will be there to be used against anyone. This should be clear from the fact that one of the first targets were Christian schools (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11414052/Legal-battle-looms-over-Christian-school-closure-in-British-Values-row.html) that were teaching traditional British values (not the ultra-liberal and wrongly-called "British values" Cameron is attempting to force on everybody).

England has always been borderline facist, 1984 was a while ago, 2005 by now

[Pannonian]

England has always been borderline facist, 1984 was a while ago, 2005 by now

Correct. That's why Philippus and I are against garments that cover the face.

[Fragony]

Correct. That's why Philippus and I are against garments that cover the face.

Ruins V for Vendetta

[Husar]

England has always been borderline facist, 1984 was a while ago, 2005 by now

Yeah, even Hitler thought they'd join him but they remained borderline in the end.

[Myth]

If british values means making longbowmen and ruling the world with ships of the line, it sounds just dandy.

Not sure what elese it would mean.

[Fragony]

Yeah, even Hitler thought they'd join him but they remained borderline in the end.

Glad that didn't happen, he certainly had a lot of fans in the Brittish aristocracy. Hitler (and Musolini) were smart enough to keep the classes intact, highly apealing for old money.

[Greyblades]

If british values means making longbowmen and ruling the world with ships of the line, it sounds just dandy.

Not sure what elese it would mean.

Cameron says: (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/13/counter-terrorism-bill-extremism-disruption-orders-david-cameron)

“This government will conclusively turn the page on this failed approach. As the party of one nation, we will govern as one nation and bring our country together. That means actively promoting certain values.

“Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights regardless of race, gender or sexuality.

“We must say to our citizens: this is what defines us as a society.”

On the other hand Google tells us ofstead says that British values are: democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect, tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs.

[Pannonian]

Cameron says: (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/13/counter-terrorism-bill-extremism-disruption-orders-david-cameron)

“This government will conclusively turn the page on this failed approach. As the party of one nation, we will govern as one nation and bring our country together. That means actively promoting certain values.

“Freedom of speech. Freedom of warships.

He's commented on the ships of the line, and I agree with him on this. But does he comment elsewhere on longbowmen? Does he mention freedom of archery practice on the commons?

[Myth]

They're launching two new aircraft carriers by 2018 and thus will become the second strongest maritime nation behind the USA. How many SOTLs is a modern aircraft carrier?

Also, I'm pretty sure that religion doesn't matter, so long as the head of that religion can allow the King of England to divorce his seventh wife and marry anew.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah, even Hitler thought they'd join him but they remained borderline in the end.

Well, to be fair, if England and Germany had ganged up on the rest of Europe it wouldn't have been a fair fight - and if there's one thing an Englishman despises it's a one-sided fight he can win easily.

This is because, fundamentally, we are as moronic as we are heroic.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Wow that's... not that bad, the government is fully justified to withdraw funding from schools that do not follow the proscribed curriculum, which durham was doing by teaching creationism as fact. (http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2015-02-28/durham-free-school-faces-fresh-criticism-over-creationism-worksheet/)

I agree that is reasonable, but the creationism controversy is a whole different case that came up after Cameron's initial "British values" attack on the school, apparently because it wasn't teaching ultra-liberal values to children.

[Greyblades]

And those ultra Liberal values were?

[Beskar]

And those ultra Liberal values were?

When you see two men kiss, you don't stone them.

[Pannonian]

When you see two men kiss, you don't stone them.

In the middle east, two men kissing is followed by them getting stoned. In Britain, two men kissing is preceded by them getting stoned.