Wedge?

[Cid]

I haven't figured out any advantage to it, particularly with Cav. Head on, Cav vs. Cav. Wedge gets creamed.

I'm sure I'm missing something. Are there other troop types that use it to better advantage?

Any help from tacticians out there would be appreciated.

[The Last Emperor]

I'm no great tactician but i think it would be better to use the wedge to attack from the flanks and best from the enemy's rear. Its quite obvious U should use it with units of high charge bonus and not those of good defence bonus since the wedge is for enhancing the attacker upon impact. Chances are the enemy will break formation if u are hitting them from the back while they are tied up with ur defensive units in front. Since i like using the English, i usually flank the enemy with Gallowglasses in wedge while they are kept busy by my Militia Sergents and Billmens and the results is usually quite good. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[sarcastro]

Hmm, yeah. Wedge. Is it useful at all? And if so, where and when? Still trying to figure that out myself. In a few tests of varous sword-types against various spear-types, wedge seemed to be good at breaking up the formation of the spears (ie. no more rank bonus). Then again, A very wide formation seemed to work just as well, if not better. There's no question it makes for a faster encounter; I believe it gives a unit +3 melee, -3 defense. It also seems to be able to change direction very quickly, making it well suited to flanking maneuvers.

So for now I use it with shock units on the flanks when I want quick results and I don't have a lot of time to maeuver.

[Alrowan]

wedges are good when they are chicken wedges, in game i have no use for them, and if i do, is becuase im in a mood to see a silly triangle stay in formation while they hit the enemies read, and the lead man fight one on one

[monkian]

I have my archers in wedge formation when I'm under siege.

If the enemy is pounding on the gates I have units of archers in wedges showering them with pointy sticks of doom.

[Dark Angel]

I found them good for cavalry charging lines of missile troops.

[Brother Derfel]

If I remeber correctly, historically the wedge formation was used by Heavy cavalry (Knights) and archers.

The knights would use this formation as a fantastic shock attack designed to cut a swath through enemy ranks whilst allowing as many men to fight at once while still having a very strong formation of their own.
The archers used this to provide very concentrated fire upon one area that would hopefully cause maximum damage amoungst enemy ranks.

Game wise, i only rarely use the wedge, most often with Knights or cavalry charging large units of Pesants. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I find once time goes on and foot troops become better armoured and more effective against cavalry then the wedge becomes useless.

[Michael the Great]

YES,BUT THE QUESTION IS:DO U USE THE WEDGE MORE NOW WITH THE PATCH THAN BEFORE(I'm only talking about CAVALRY in wege,not infantry)?

P.S.Charge 1 unit of Lancers in wedge into a unit of spearmen,and see what happens.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Shahed]

Well to me "wedge" translates as: driving a wedge in between two parts.

So I use the wedge formation head on like this: once the front line enemy troops are engaged and my troops are holding them I start to flank, and at the same time i put a couple of units into wedge and try to squeeze in between the enemy' sfront line. I use the formation to go in between 2 enemy units who are already engaged frontally. This is tuff to pull off but when this happens the formation enages the flanks of the enemy units as it is driving through to the rear of the enemy army. This completes the wegde effect and I now have a a split in the enemy's front line, which I can pour any avaiable units through http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Otherwise I find a thin line charge to be much more devastating than the wedge formation is in charge. I only use wedge in the way I described whenevr i can.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[The Last Emperor]

Btw has anyone used wedge for their archers? If so are they better than the line formation that is usually deployed?

[hoom]

Quote[/b] ]driving a wedge in between two parts.
archers in wedge formation
Two techniques I gotta try http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Swoosh So]

Arrse is that one of those picture in picture thingys?

[A.Saturnus]

I used wedge for some time with heavy cav but changed to line. It seems the shock effect in line is greater.

[monkian]

Quote[/b] (The Last Emperor @ Dec. 02 2002,04:04)]Btw has anyone used wedge for their archers? If so are they better than the line formation that is usually deployed?

Quote[/b] ]Btw has anyone used wedge for their archers? If so are they better than the line formation that is usually deployed?

I found archers wedges effective when I wanted to concentrate their fire- they fire less arrows but they are more accurate.

[Kraxis]

If get a chance to get cav into the rear or flank of the enemy it is well worth putting them in Wedge, the same is true for good attackers. This is because the heavier charge you get will allow for the unit to roll over more enemies during the charge. In standup combat it is not as good as it has a very small front and the individual soldiers might get flanked. So after the charge has ended are you are among an unbroken enemy, change back to Close.

I use Wedge a little more after the patch.

[TheLastEuropean]

Basically, with wedge, you are just deciding whether it is worth tipping the scales slightly. If you can utilise the increased kill ability without suffering too much from the decreased defence then do it Use a wedge:-

a) whenever you can get a 'free' attack on another unit i.e. unit is not facing your charge, unit is engaged etc.

b) when using units with decent defence/armour stats against a low-attack foe. The -3 defence will not make much difference against a low-attack foe since their attack stat is so low that they'll still hardly kill any of your unit.

Examples:-

Units like Chiv. Knights, Kataphraktoi, Kwarazmian Cav. etc. can make excellent use of the wedge against most other units - even head on Since their armour/defence stat is very good the decrease in defence does not impact too much (unless they are fighting a foe with a really high attack stat ). E.g. Chiv. Knights in wedge charged at archers will lose maybe 1 or 2 if any at all but charging them at Ghazi's may lose you 10 or more

Alternatively, I tried charging Turcoman Horse at Pavise Crossbowmen in a wedge since crossbowmen have a weak attack and good defence. Turcoman Horse attack/defence is only average. I figured that by boosting the horses attack stat it would help overcome the crossbowmens defence, whilst the lowered defence would (I hoped) would not make much difference due to the crossbowmen's extremely poor attack. I was wrong The attack bonus was STILL not enough to overcome the pavise crossbowmen's defence so they still struggled to kill them Further, the decrease in defence for the horses meant that the crossbowmen could now kill them whereas normally they hardly kill anything in melee Normally this match-up is quite close and could go either way but here the crossbowmen won shockingly easily (doh).

c) all flank, rear attacks on engaged units.

d) when performing tight maneouvres between enemy units Wedge formation is easily more handleable and has a nice affect that when you make a turn the lead unit swivels and the 'tail' end sort of swings round (bit like an articulated-lorry). Often I find my cav. archers have gotten into bad positions, (in the middle of many enemy units for instance) and to extricate them I hit 'Engage at Will' and 'Wedge' then run them carefully between the enemy units swerving left and right to 'drag' the tail one way or the other and avoiding all contact (if done right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). Wedge formation in those moments are a crucial necessity That has gotten my cavalry out of many a close shave in the past. Another plus is that if you do happen to 'brush' the corners or an enemy unit whilst maneouvreing you are still carrying the wedge bonus and usually kill those units you come into contact with.

e) against units that are re-forming or in loose formation. If a spear unit is turning or changing depth/width or switching between close/loose formation they are more vulnerable. Whilst they are in transition they will not get rank bonuses - a good opportunity to do some damage whilst their attack/defence stats are reduced and using wedge will enhance the attack giving a good chance of breaking them before they can organise themselves back into formation. Hit them in a wedge, melee for a few seconds, if they don't break then either switch to close or withdraw and try again.


But it goes for any unit and not just cavalry. Whenever you get a chance to kill without being killed (or without expecting to take much losses due to unit match-up) then go for wedge every time Oh, and never get caught unawares in the flank or rear whilst in wedge - your unit will be gone in seconds (doh I wrote too much)

[Jaret]

I have used the wedge in a very strange way ... it works tho http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


So far I have used the wedge together with the hold formation command ( a mistake initialy ... but somehow I found this to work quite ok ). The hold formation has 2 advantages ... it gives -2 Meele and +2 Defense. Cavalry already got a solid Defense rating ... with that bonus they last even longer (not doing so much Damage tho). The other Advantage is ... that your men stay in formation.

My use for that so far.

Frontal :

Several times I have charged a wedge straight on into an enemy Formation (even Spears). They pushed the enemy back destroying his formation. But they didn´t abandon their own formation and stayed deep inside the enemies formation ... ruining it I then had the enemy engaged by my Infantry that quickly overwhelmed them ... since their formation was broken and they were suffering from the effects.

Flank :

That one I have used more frequently. I move the wedge up to a 90° arc to the enemy unit I want to charge. The Charge goes for the enemy Banner in the center of the formation ... 90° means you hit their flank 100%. And then you start to move your way up the enemy flank towards its center. I always had the enemy engaged frontaly by my spearmen ... after the charge of the cavalry the enemy always routed

When the enemy routes ... change the hold formation to attack at will and chase down those routers

I don´t know if this is a good tactic that will work always ... for me it worked so far ... give it a try ... wedge can be of use ... I still belive it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[hoof]

I find wedge formation good for smashing head-on into non-spear units with cavalry. I have no hard data to back it up, but my gut feel is that in 1.1 I get slightly better results on the initial collision in wedge formation, esp. against fragile units (like peasants or archers). Of course, I always hit the rectangle formation button after the collision, but this is to ensure the maximum number of horsemen get into the fight, it doesn't really affect the collision casualty rates.

Anything other than a middle-of-the-formation head-on collision seems to do better in rectangle formation.

[LadyAnn]

Wedge? Avoid getting wedgy that is...

I don't like the wedge formation because it put fewer men on the flank and rear of the enemy. If you follow the thread about wide-line formation, you will see that rank-bonus doesn't work as well as one would believe. I rarely see good player on Multi put themselves in wedge formation.
Rarely, because I did see good players do that, but not for the attack purpose you have mentioned.

As for wedge while flanking or rearing, I am not sure the wedge formation adds to the earlier routing of enemy. I believe putting your horses in wide formation is much more effective. For example, you are flanking a square infantry which is engaging. If you put your flanking unit in wedge formation, only a few guy in front fight. If you put your flanking unit in wide formation, engage at will, they will wrap around the back and have both flanking and rearing bonus.

Wedge formation, with its decrease of defense stat, and its increase of enemy's flanking bonus while not having the rank bonus, make it very ineffective tactic.

One thing could be useful: wedge for movement. Unit in wedge moves a bit faster due to inherent compact formation. You con put your unit in the width-depth you like, hit 'w' to put them in wedge, click the destinaiton, click 'c' when it reaches the destination.

Annie

[TomThumbKOP]

I have 2 uses for the wedge:

1) I put a cheap unit (read peasants) in wedge and hold formation. Then I attach an enemy spear. The enemy spear stays in hold formation so essentially, I can only loose one peasant at a time. The enemy unit tends to ignore the maneuvering of all other units so I can move a unit to their rear or flank and attack then change my peasants to close and engage at will.

2) The wedge will punch through thin lines of enemies. Some people in MP tend to spread some units thin in order to attempt to envelope my unit. A charge with hvy cav into even spear if they are spread will break the enemy unit.

[Kraxis]

LadyAnn, your arguments are good. Very good indeed, but most good players are oldtimers from STW where it was a very bad thing to use Wedge because it presented so few men to the enemy. But in MTW Wedge has been strengthened a good deal by the charge carrying through ranks and thus the Wedge can maintain the charge longer than Close due to better attack. That means more kills on initial contact, but also that the unit will go further into the enemy unit presenting more of its own men to the enemy and thus the old idea of fewer men is now wrong unless the enemy is very strong in def.

[LadyAnn]

Let me give the wedge formation some try in some multies and see how effective this could be.

Annie

[Sad Tomato]

i use wedge with good assault units in flanking/rear attacks.
this is normaly only possible if my army is significantly larger than the enemies army, allowing me to flank without fear of being surrounded.
my main objective is to place the enemy unit under pressure which increases the chances they will break and flee.

i have seen the ai employ wedge/flank manouvers with it's cavalry units on my defending spear units.

[TheLastEuropean]

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Dec. 02 2002,13:16)]As for wedge while flanking or rearing, I am not sure the wedge formation adds to the earlier routing of enemy. I believe putting your horses in wide formation is much more effective. For example, you are flanking a square infantry which is engaging. If you put your flanking unit in wedge formation, only a few guy in front fight. If you put your flanking unit in wide formation, engage at will, they will wrap around the back and have both flanking and rearing bonus.

Wedge formation, with its decrease of defense stat, and its increase of enemy's flanking bonus while not having the rank bonus, make it very ineffective tactic.
Annie that's not right. The 'long thin lines' tactic was referring to frontal attacks where you do not get flanking/rear bonuses. With a long line you can contrive to get these bonuses by having units lap around the edges etc. etc. - but it's all about trying to pick up those bonuses from a head-on collision.

In your example you say a long thin line into the back of an already engaged unit. Well, in that case formation is irrelevant for getting the flanking/rear bonuses - since you are attacking the rear anyway. So in actual fact, a wedge would still be a better tactic than a long line in that respect. You will get flank/rear bonuses and still kill quicker http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[LadyAnn]

You kill a man quicker, but not the entire line quicker. We all agree that flanking and rearing, the enemy stands no chance. What we are disputing is that a wedge or a line would reduce the enemy to dust quicker.

My point is this. If you rearing or broadsiding in wedge formation, only your wedge point and a few guys on the side would see combat. If I use a broad formation and engage at will, half or even all of my men see action from the start.
There is no fooling around waiting for the few point/front-side guys die before going to the next.

Annie

[hoof]

How about the best of both worlds? Use wedge for the initial collision, and when the movement stalls, hit the standard formation button. This way the initial collision gets the benefits of the wedge, while they get the maximum men into action right after.

If you time it right, you can even get cavalry on the sides of the wedge to continue their charge when the point stops this way (since they have to continue moving to change formation)

I think the idea of keeping a formatin in Wedge after the initial collision is where the problem lies. Once you've decided to commit to a general melee, it's best to not use Wedge as Wedge tends to limit the number of men in action. Sometimes that's a Good Thing, as LadyAnn talks about with peasants vs spears.

[Kraxis]

hoof that is basically what I do unless I face some very weak attackers (Peasants, Archers, Turcoman Foot ect ect).
That gives you a powerful charge and a good melee.

[Naagi]

Well i had an interesting use of the wedge last night. Situation was this, the Turks had reappeared and i had very little army within range of this one province. So i sent it in and leeched some of the garrisons in surrounding provinces to boost its numbers. This is usually a bad idea but it seemed to work this time. Anyway i was still outnumbered about 2 to 1 but the Turks had a lot of peasants where i had lots of archers. We were on opposing sides of a hill so i sent 2 units of horse archers wide left and eventually got them on his generals Ghulam bodyguards unit. The rest of my army was set to fire at the closest archers and approching cavalry. Did i mention i only had 1 spearman unit and 2 Byz inf units(one of these my generals). Hid my spare byz inf unit in the trees and let the archers do their work. After a few tense moments i had the enemy on the run, but didnt chase much. In came his reinforcements and i was almost out of arrows, i decided to try something with my depleted archers. My then decimated byz inf and spearman unit went head to head with his saracen inf and 2 units of peasants. I swung a couple archer units behind, put them in wedge, and struck. Man did this work great, first contact and the saracens broke. I finished off all i could and won the day. Once again some great tips here have saved my arse. 2200+ to my 1100 mostly missile type.

Naagi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Kraxis]

Naagi, you clearly found a good use there.

I used to use that as well in the old STW days because I wanted as much bang for the buck out of my archers as I could. It was most often do or die when you ran out of arrows.

Archers are weak in melee, both attack and def, but if you manage to flank with them keep them in Wedge. You need their killingpower more than you need them alive when you are pressed like that. A small bonus you get when in Wedge is a bit Morale, in Wedge the men will stay close to each other and the enemy can only engage their sides, so you won't suffer the penalties of individual flanking as much. And you certainly need that with those weak Archers.

[pdoan8]

For cav: I often use wedge formation (especially for heavy cav), but I try to avoid charging my cav headon (unless charging very weak units like peasants, archers,...). I put my cav in wide formation (2-2.5 row deep) then change to wedge mode. I think that units move faster and also turn faster in wedge formation so it easier to maneuver cav to hit the enemy flank. Even though, cav charge can not really break formation, but I rely on the extra kill that they make in the initial contact. After the initial contact, I change to close formation and attack again to make all men fight. Post-patch, I sometimes disengage and charge again (if I have the time to do that). So, for cav: engage in wide formation, charging and moving in wedge.

I also use wedge (while moving only) for non-cav units just because they seem to move faster and turn faster. I also have the habit of crossing bridge in wedge formation.

[Ktonos]

I only use a wedge when my unit must reach a target protected by other unit(s) (usually the generals unit).

This often happens when outnumbered and near defeat, and the only thing witch will save the day is to kill the enemy general,I form a wedge and d. click the opponents generals unit. If my unit is good attacker and with high moral it will propably break through enemy formations and reach its target. Rarely does it manage to finaly kill the general, but when it does and the enemy root, its fantastic. Also non melee units who must go hand to hand, are best in wedge.

All these I know from gameplay exerience. One thing I read about wedge and has to do with mechanics is that a unit in wedge concetrates its best men in the top of the wedge.
As we all know MTW calculates the combat status for every soldier, not for every unit.

eg a 35 unit of valour 4 Varangian Guards which has...
8 soldiers of valour 3
21 soldiers of valour 4
3 soldiers of valour 5
2 soldiers of valour 6
1 soldier of valour 7
...forms a wedge. The tip of the wedge, the first soldier, will be th valour 7 man. He will be followed by the two valour 6 men and behind them will be the 3 valour 5 and 1 valour 4.In the last row will be the 8 valour 3 men with some valour 4.

That means that this formation protects the weaker men and uses the best to fight, fewer casualties, but those who die are the best. If you take a closer look at a wedge charge, the first man kills 3-4 enemies in conduct, while the rest do not go that well.

[Xiahou]

Ive done some 1 on 1 testing with various heavly cavalry vs spear units. I've found that charging head-on in a wedge fairs much better than in the thin line. The wedge hits and really doesnt do anything too impressive, but the cavalry formations begins to wriggle its way thru the middle of the block of spears and breaks up the formation. The end result was that the unit breaks faster and you take less casualties than you would when spread out in a thin line.

So, when to use a wedge? Pretty much whenever you NEED to break up an enemy formation. Otherwise I go with a line since it brings more of my men into contact with the enemy .

[Ktonos]

...that and when you have one unit left against several.