Cavalry

[hundurinn]

What is the point of having cavalry they are losers they are bad against spearmen and good swordmen and ok against other cavalry? I've stoped to train them. They are expencive and do nothing good. The only thing they can do is to run down archers. I only train infantry and i've stoped to train archers to. The only cavalry i train are the Gothic knights.

[A.Saturnus]

have you installed the patch? I use chiv knights quiet effectively and mounted sgts shouldn`t be underestimated too, if you manage to charge spearmen in the back the will run. Also, used right jinettes are great. Use cav for flanking and (heavy cav) for shock. It`s great to run down routed units.

[TheViking]

Hundurinn:
Do you charge your cav head on to spearunits???

I always use cavs and alot of them heavy and light in mix.
Just ran the shooters down when they brake attack the infantrys rare that make them brake then you ran them all down while they are running then you kill all prisoners so you dont need to face them again (if your playing single game).

What do you use against enemys cav archers???
Light cav catch anything. I havnt seen a single infantry unit catch those anoying units if i use 5 or more units i can trap them but that means i have 5 or more units less in the melee. there´s where the light cavs come in.

Why not use shooters???
I have atleast 6 units of them when i defend. they take out 2-4 units of the enemy depending on their valour and somtimes even more. Then i withdraw them if I have reinforcement. Or else they make good flankers.

[HopAlongBunny]

Cavalry are just faster. If you want to flank or get to the enemies rear, they will get there faster than most foot troops.

One battle I sent some AHC on a long march. The defender was perched atop a funnel; steep slope woods on both sides. If all went well the cavalry would appear on the flank.

Battle started and I lured some of the enemy into the funnel. Then it all went crazy Masses of troops poured down the funnel and it was all I could do to keep on top of things; my spears were wavering, my cavalry squadrons were almost spent...kill ratio was in my favour but there was just too many. Who appeared at the top of the hill? The long lost AHC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I set their charge for the centre of the of my line strung out below. Before they were a quarter of the way down the hill the enemy was routing en masse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I used to despise Armenian Heavy Cavalry; die too quick, don't hit hard enough, armour? hah...etc; but now I see there are advantages to a unit that come off the shelf at v2.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

Mod the cavalry to the stats you desire.

[Foreign Devil]

Thats about as fun as going though the Shogun files on your c drive to find the ending movie and watching it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

At least for me. You modders go have a ball http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[rpasell]

I would be shocked if you could excute an effective battle if the opponent has Cav and you have none. There may be a couple notable exceptions, but in my experience you need cavalry. Especially if the opponent has mounted missle units. I know the conventional wisdom is not to chase mounted cav units with other cav units, but a unit of light cav does wonders for me in chasing off opposing mounted cav.

Plus cav units are really the only effective unit at chasing down and capturing routing enemy units.

Plus plus the cav units are the only units fast enough to redeploy to sections of your line that may be wavering. By the time an infantry unit got there the fight may have ended in disaster.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

I think the developers made cavalry in the game too weak. I think my modded units are more historical and realistic.

Modders make the game better not easier.

[desdichado]

I regularly fight with an all infantry army as this suits my playing style. Very effective against cav as long as you have the right units. Lots of spears supported by arbs and a couple of cavalry killers (usually CMAA with high valour). Get your swords to hit the cav in the flank when they are tied up on your spear units and voila - no more horsies.

This is easy to do as you have more men and therefore longer line. Enemy cav cannot attack your full line and has to choose a point to attack. As soon as they do send your swords on a run around flank.

Only problem is a inf army is purely defensive against a cav army and don't expect to catch many prisoners. Go for kills instead

Saying this i do like Spanish Jinettes (a lot) for their javelins and their speed and use them as flankers and chasing routed units. I usually avoid heavy cav.


But certainly heavy cav have their uses and used properly can be devastating. Just don't charge head on to quality spear units - waste of time.


mounted missile units - there are only 40 of them vs 60 fott archers and plus they are a bigger target. Get them tied up in an archer duel and they will generally lose to the foot archers. I would use mounted missile units as skirmishers or just to try to annoy or disrupt the enemy. Not in a head on fight with enemy fot missile.

I only play SP by the way

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Knight_Yellow]

One word "Lancers" oh and another "gothic knights" these things kill any unit an army can throw at u providing they have high valour, ive seen lancers kill and rout spearmen easily and in close combat at the center of ur line they can do a lot of damage,
in my opinion the general unit choice i avoid is ranged units i just do not think they kill enough men compared to a h2h unit in there place although i have been known to take catapults as those things kill 10 to 25 men with one hit, very funny cos they also cos panic and r great for "sniping" generals.

[LadyAnn]

Here we go again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif People charge cavalry straight into spears and complain that it has no use http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Well, each one has their own style.

I must stop talking now, don't turn this thread into a tank thread.

Annie

[Musashi]

I rarely use cavalry, and never much of it unless I have Gothic Knights or if I'm playing Russia (In which case I'll be producing Boyars en masse).

In my experience the right infantry units turn any cavalry into hamburger no matter what. Varangian Guard, SAPs (Though this is rarely a factor), halberdiers, JHI, etc. Why would I want to field cav when I can replace them with heavy infantry and have a redundant row in my defensive line? I find I rarely fight attacks because I only attack when I have so many men that the enemy just runs anyway, and even on the attack I find that the half square can be used surprisingly well as an advancing line attack. Why would I worry about horse archers? Their ranged attacks rarely do any damage to the sort of superarmored infantry I'm using, and if they decide to duel my foot archers they'll lose...

-Musashi

[bosdur]

desdi : CMAA is hardly a cavalry killer, it's armed with swords, troops with poleaxes or halberdiers is a cavalry killer.

I agree with hopalongbunny the only reason I use cav is because it's faster than infantry troops. It's kind of tedious monitoring a shock infantry unit getting into flanking position. And don't forget cav give more morale penalty when charging infantry from flank/rear (-6) compared to infantry flanking (-4). -2 makes all the difference.

[Musashi]

Personally I rarely bother with flanking... I just hit the enemy with one of the aforementioned heavy infantry units frontally and overwhelm them. Eventually he'll send more units to support that one, causing his line to collapse inward, at which point I bring my wings around to envelop his whole force without actually breaking my line. I find the half-square is more or less impossible to flank, and on the rare ocassions when it becomes an issue it only takes a couple of seconds to form a full square so...

-Musashi

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (bosdur @ Dec. 10 2002,09:08)]desdi : CMAA is hardly a cavalry killer, it's armed with swords, troops with poleaxes or halberdiers is a cavalry killer.
Bosdur,

Obviously I would use halberdiers against cav if I could get them but only available later in game and also slower which makes flanking harder.

Besides, my high valour CMAA tore through Heavy Mongol cavalry as long as I could catch them in the flank. Medium cavalry just fall over.

Used properly I think they are great at taking cav and anything else the enemy throws at you. In SP you don't always have the troops you want and I like my armies to be adaptable.

just my humble opinion

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Sad Tomato]

i use cav units of all descriptions when i can get them.
i think it really depends on your faction (and factions you are fighting against) as to how useful cavalry can be.
i am becoming better at using my cavalry. i probably will never use them as front line defensive units, for one the unit size of 40 for cav is far smaller than 100 for defensive spear units.
all the same using a cavalry charge at the right time can be decisive.
having the ability to chase routers is very handy. chasing units that rout instead of allowing them a chance to rally will reduce the effective numbers of the opposition.
chasing routers with infantry can end in encirclement and destruction. cav can turn around and run back to avoid encirclement. cav can perform this action several times before they are fatigued severely.
in defense where the attacker has no light cav or horse archers, i use horse archers to draw strong enemy units away from the main attack.
this can have a significant effect on the enemies ability to attack when two hundred odd men are chasing horse archers all over the paddock.

i think cavalry are worth using, but there is a 'knack' to it. i suggest only taking one cavalry unit into battle for starters and experiment with using them at different stages of a battle.
you may still think "nup, don't like cavalry" but i am confident that you will find some cavalry useful in most situations.

[Knight_Yellow]

One funny thing ive noticed is that if u go spanish but take no horses only knights and militia etc. with sum catapults the enemy in mp turns up with spears, very funny as knights completely decimate spears lol and catapults do lotsa damage with me selecting the targets i can sumtimes kill 30 men with one salvo from 4 catapults, plus they cause panic even funnier http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[RunAway!!]

I usually only use any light cavalry I can buy with an inn. That being said, if I'm in a 3 front war, I'll also train some Ghulam bodyguards, because they seem to have a pretty good chance of starting out as semi decent generals; perfect for holding the line against crusades. Most of them time, cavalry isn't all that useful for me; but I've let the Mongols go unchallenged for awhile, and now they always show up with 8-9 units of archers, so I've started building up my horse farms.

[solypsist]

wow, these sorts of posts wherein an entire type of unit is dismissed always makes me scratch my head....

i suppose there could be a modded game where all cav units are removed, but then good luck chasing down the fleeing enemy...

[pdoan8]

I might use smaller army without cav very early in the campaign when noone can train cav yet (or at least not many are used). However, for me, an army without cav is lack of the dynamic element. I mean, with cav, I can win a battle in more than one way. I use all kinds of cav but prefer medium and heavy plus horse archer/crossbow. I have between 3 to 7 cav for every 16 to 20 units army (with reserve).

When use right, cav can deliver devasting power and can mow down any kind of troop even the best cav-killer like Foot Knight, SAP, JHI, ...

Defensively, I use more infantry but always have some cav as reserve for the second phase (offesive phase).

Offensively, I will start with cav and have some (fast)infantry in reserve.

[LovelyHaji]

YEah, i always like to have some cavalry when playing single player. WHo else can take out a load of archers then turn around and repeatedly charge the enemy's rear? ANd of course there's the post-rout "peasant-harvesting" that always needs doing.

[Qilue]

I used to prefer my armies with mainly anti-cav infantry and decent archers (ergo - English) and a few cav for chasing down routers and the general (he must not be allowed to escape).

Then I modded in the horde by changing them to moslem and starting them in early with a few of their esclusive units along with a few other changes. The hardest part was adjusting from static infantry tactics to dynamic cavalry tactics. It does require more micromanagement, but the results can be a lot of fun. You can reposition much faster than infantry and with a predominately cavalry army, you don't lose as many men when a battle goes bad.

I've also come to appreciate fast horse archers. They can effectively neutralise slow horse archers (boyars :P).

Now if only the pre-set formations would place horse archers on the flanks instead of mixing them with other archers.

EDIT - I only play SP.

[Sandy-San]

yeah, i love using mass cav against peasant uprisings (hey its historically accurate... probably...)

[Kraxis]

Heavy cav are more than fast heavy infantry with fewer numbers.

I like heavy cav for their heavy charge, and that extra -2 to Morale is certainly not bad. One could argue that Gallowglasses are equally good at charging, but that is only half the truth. The heavy cav have a better chance at pushing back infantry (including spears) and thus their charge becomes much better because the charge will roll along as long as the taget of the cavalryman is either pushed back or killed. Also heavy cav have stayingpower and good Morale, something Gallowglasses and most other superb Chargebonus infantry don't have.

[HopAlongBunny]

Playing SP I have to say some of the best (enjoyable) battles I have ever fought were with all cav armies. Its fluid fast and fun

But maybe I'm just compensating for the poor management skills that resulted in these situations http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Musashi]

I dunno... I prefer my tactics conservative, conventional, and solid rather than brilliant. I command defensively, even on the offense, and I almost never pursue routers of any kind, because I'd rather keep my formation strong. And I'd really rather kill my enemies than capture them... Money is all well and good but I'd rather not fight them again than get paid for their return and end up facing them again two years later. I often deliberately try not to rout the enemy, so that I can kill more of them before they break. I'm an old fashioned commander, I like my enemies dead, and the sooner the better. I like to think my commander has a couple squads of peasants who follow along behind him skewering the corpses to make sure they're all dead. You get the idea.

The only time I'll pursue a routing unit is when it's a high ranking general who's been a real thorn in my side, and then it's just so I can hit the "kill prisoners" button after my men take him captive.

So no, I have little use for most cavalry, I'd much rather spend the time and money gearing up to produce the best possible infantry rather than wasting time on cavalry, and even then I use mostly light cav for crushing units of archers, and pursuing the aforementioned generals against whom I hold a grudge.

-Musashi

[A.Saturnus]

But you can get very good results with charges. In a recent battle, a v6 byz inf. attacked my v4 Italian inf. Usually the byz inf should slaughter them. But I brought mounted sgts behind them and then used the Italian inf as anvil and the sgts as hammer. The sgts lost 2 or so, the Italian inf 10 and the byz inf more than 70. So, whenever a unit is in a close fight with one of ours, a cav charge is deadly. When you use chiv knights or comparable, you can rout chiv sgts immediately this way.
Cav is not just usefull to run down routers but can be used to inflict heavy damage to nearly every unit.
BTW, killing prisoners doesn`t bring that much. It doesn`t take long to rebuild armies and it doesn`t cost more than pay them free. When you ransom them, you get the money instead of his training facilities (or whoever is paid for recruiting troops). It`s also better for loyalty and morale. I only kill prisoners if their are especially strong ones among them.
(Would like to command: "Behead the Guards, let the rest live")

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Dec. 11 2002,08:59)]"Behead the Guards, let the rest live"
Hehe... how true that would be. Like executing Templars.

I don't like to get Merciless so I almost never execute soldiers of my enemies. Only in battles that I lost will I kill them, you can do this when the tallyscreen comes up.

In all I agree with you Saturnus, nothing comes close to a heavy charge dished out by some knights in the rear.

[Musashi]

Ah, I play on huge unit size settings, so it takes 2 or more turns to produce a unit. In this setting I think it's better to kill enemy troops since they take so long to produce.

Also, I realize the uses of cavalry charge but I find that it's too hard (read: impossible) to disengage a cav unit after the charge in order to charge again. I have no idea how the AI does that, and since I can't do it, I leave high charge units at home and take troops who are better in protracted melees instead.

-Musashi

[LadyAnn]

Musashi:
I would suggest you hit "Backspace" to cancel your charge first, before order the horses to retreat slightly and recharging again. Without cancelling the previous order, your order of retreat for recharging would never be executed.

The AI did it quite efficiently: its retreat is just enough to disengage the horse and the recharging follows without wait. Manually, I couldn't disengage fast enough and turn around fast enough. I guess that with more experiences, I would find the right "click sequence" that improves the recharging effectiveness.

Annie

[Kraxis]

Annie is right...

You must take care when using knights, they are very hard to disengage, but other heavy cav are much easier in my oppinion.
I usually first walk the knights away, when I see they have begun to disengage I run them, it work 90% of the time.