View Full Version : Muslim rut!
Leet Eriksson
12-10-2002, 23:18
I enetred a battle against crusaders and i outnumbered them 4-1 let me explain exactly what i had and what they had
Muslim army:0 everything(valour and whatever)
2 Abyysinian guards
2 Almo foot
2 Saracen
3 Mamelukes
2 Mamelukes archers
4 Nizaris
Crusader skum:0 everything
3 Hospitaller
3 Chiv sergeants
3 chiv MAA
3 Crossbows
well yeah i flanked the hospitallaers with mamelukes with saracen support and flanked the croosbows with more mamelukes but i still lostalso archers are supposed to be better than crossbows right?
Leet Eriksson
12-10-2002, 23:19
my point is,they lack heavy armour khawrizmians ain't enough..any good tactics?
ShaiHulud
12-10-2002, 23:46
Yes..... I'd suggest fewer archers and more Saracens. Meet his cav with the Saracens and THEN flank. Unlike STW, archers are not nearly as good as killing. I rarely have more than 3 in an army.
archers can fire faster but the accuracy is not so great. Against well armoured unit, the arrow doesn't do anything good.
You need more of the type Ghazi and Abyssinian Guards. Use Mameluke Horse instead of Khwarazmian, because Mameluke Cavalry has armour piercing weapon.
So I see the problem you face is the Crusaders have better armour while your troops are lightly armour and doesn't have armour piercing weapons.
When you play muslim faction, you must make use of the fact that muslim factions has somewhat cheaper troops. A Mameluke Cav costs only about 2/3 of a Western Knight. So pile them up In SP, in contrast to MP, you have reinforcement.
Another thing to consider is to prolong the fight. Hit and run. Make them chase. The heavy armour wear them down fast and soon, they will rather run away...
Annie
another smart way of playing is to try and wear down thier troops as they have heavy armour its not hard to do
solypsist
12-11-2002, 02:27
the key to playing a campaign as a Muslim faction is to conquer much of the map by the end of the early age; it's true the Catholic factions develop armor that causes problems later in the game.
...Unless you're the Turks, in which case you have armored troops that are every bit a match for the Europeans' troops. Mmm, JHI...
-Musashi
The Heavy Janitors (Janissary Heavy Infantry) are expensive, so don't rely too much on them. At 750, it costs almost as much as a Lancer and more than a Chivalric Knight. As versatile as they are, these guys are still spear units and would have problem against swords units.
But the Heavy Janitors could form a brick wall to close on the enemy, while lighter missile troops follow behind to shoot down the opponent.
Annie
ps.: Heavy Janitor is only available in High Era.
JHI can actually beat any infantry unit in the game aside from SAP and VG. Try it sometime. There are no sword units in the game stronger than CMAA and there's no way in hell CMAA could even scratch a unit of JHI.
They are well worth the price, and when I'm playing the Turks I field armies using JHI as the line troops with JI for archers and either Kwazimawhatsits if I'm sending them north or Ottoman Sipahis if I'm sending them into the desert. They're well worth the expense because they're the Turks' equivalent of the VG.
-Musashi
This is my opinion:
Archers (as the Nizaris) don't have the AP capability, so they will not win the shoot out vs crossbows who have good armour, AP capability, same range, lower ROF, better accuracy, higher lethality, more power. They also can't do enough damage on the Knights (good armour), CMAA (good armour) and Chiv Sergeant (armoured, large shield). Nizaris who have +7 charge bonus should be used as shock and they will win if they charge the crossbow (and that's what I will do).
As for the army composition: I will trade 1 Mameluke Cav and 1 Nizari or 2 Mameluke archers (against good armour units, archers can't do enough damage) for 2 more Saracens. In order to counter heavy cav effectively, I would need one spear unit (or anti cav unit) for every enemy cav. So my army composition would be:
2 Abyysinian guards
2 Almo foot (is that AUM or what? sound like Muwahid for me)
4 Saracen
3 Mamelukes cav
4 Nizaris
then I would try to:
- Use 4 Sacarens to hold the Knights. Should be able to hold for awhile until the cav are free.
- Use 3 Mumeluke Cav to charge the 3 crossbows. Should win this one fast.
- Use 2 Abys + 2 Almo foot against 3 Chiv Sergeant. Good match.
- Use 4 Nizaris vs 3 CMAA. Good match and winable.
There should be more ways that you can win this battle.
RunAway!!
12-11-2002, 06:41
Ok...for everyone that loves the Turk infantry..what am I doing wrong? My game has come down to me, the English, and a huge Papacy. My main problem is with the English; the Papacy is content to wage naval war while our armies stalemate along the borders. Against the English, my main problem is their infantry, specifically the dreaded Billmen These guys seem to be striving for sainthood; the speed with which they gut my legions of Saracen Infantry and Ghulam cavalry is astounding. Maybe it just had to do with the valour of the individual units, but in the last battle I didn't autoresolve, a unit of Billmen annihilated one of my Saracen Infantry units, a unit of Hashashin, and a unit of Ghulam Cavalry, with only 6-7 casualties of their own. Another one, along with some woodsmen, chewed through two units of my Jannissary Heavy Infantry that I laboured so long and hard in Constantinople to build. Anyone have any suggestions? Should I start investing in missile fire rather than spearmen and cavalry?
Leet Eriksson
12-11-2002, 12:44
Muwahid and Almohad generally mean the same thing,but Muwahid is in arabic.Btw if crossbows are that great i think muslims can get them right?
A.Saturnus
12-11-2002, 15:27
Of course muslims can get crossbows. They`re missing in your army. As I played Egypt, my usual army was:
3 nizari
2 mamluk archer
2 heavy cav (AHC or Kwarazmiam)
4 saracen
2 ghazi
2 crossbow
1 general
I didn`t use abyssinial cause they are so expensive. I used the nizari and ghazi to flank lighter troops as spearmen or crossbows. Saracen usually hold out long against everyone, so you have time to bring your cav in his rear.
RunAway yes it is ranged you need. Build some Turcoman Foot and Turcoman Horse to harrass the English, they don't have units that can catch them. The few that can are easily destroyed.
If you want ranged and melee, then train Futuwwas and Jannisary Infantry/Archers, just not the same place as the Jannisaries are better than the Futuwwas, but they can only be trained in one place while Futuwwas are available all over.
Billmen don't have much Armour so they get a horrible rash when faced with arrows, you know the rash you get when you get sand into your eyes, mouth and nose.
Saturnus:
I didn`t use abyssinial cause they are so expensive.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I thought that Abyssinian guards have the same cost as Ghazi (175 Fl)? And you don't need a mosque to build it. (I assume you play Egyptian, the only one can get Abyssinian as native).
{EDIT: Ah, perhaps I forgot the maintenance costs)
Faisal:
Btw if crossbows are that great i think muslims can get them right?
In the game, the Turks has crossbow, but doesn't have the Arbalaster and the Pavise Crossbow/Arbalaster types.
Mushashi:
There are no sword units in the game stronger than CMAA and there's no way in hell CMAA could even scratch a unit of JHI.
What I mean is that you must also compare costs. Although given that you can't buy upgrade in SP the way you buy upgrade in MP, you can field 3 of those CMAA for the cost of a single Janitor (I call them Janitor because they do mob the battle field, so I did gave credit that they are quite strong versatile). With reinforcement possible, the equation turns in favor of the CMAA.
There are better sword units, but you must dismount knights or have a crusade to get it.
RunAway:
My game has come down to me, the English, and a huge Papacy.
See, I told you, the Papacy is one of the best faction http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
...unit of Billmen annihilated one of my Saracen Infantry units, a unit of Hashashin, and a unit of Ghulam Cavalry, with only 6-7 casualties of their own.
Of course, Billmen kills your Cav any time. Any kind of Cav, not just Ghulam Cav. Don't send Cav against Billmen, their use is anticav (3/1 bonus against Cav.)
At the same cost, Saracen has -1/3 combat stat while billmen has 2/4 combat stat, meaning the Saracen could hardly scratch the Billmen while the billmen can slowly chip away the Saracen.
The regular Janitors could do the job against Billmen: shoot arrows to decimate and can give a decent hand fight, at comparable costs (combat stat: 4/2). Billmen has light armour, so Janissary Infantry (the one who shoot arrows, not the Heavy one) can do the job.
Another one, along with some woodsmen, chewed through two units of my Jannissary Heavy Infantry that I laboured so long and hard in Constantinople to build. Anyone have any suggestions? Should I start investing in missile fire rather than spearmen and cavalry?
You should avoid the charge of the woodsman. Woodsman has good charge (8). Also remember that when you use Heavy Janitors, since they are spears, they have a "F" (hold formation" by default. Select them and press "E" when engage lower skilled, non cav. units such as Woodsman and Billmen. At "F" they tend to have only a few guys fight and allow flanking. At "E", you will be amaze how fast they mob the battle field.
As for your question of "investing in missile troops". You may already notice that Turks troops are versatile, can-do-many-things unit. Many of them can shoot arrows and when arrows ran out, give a good fight. Jan.Inf. is one of these. Playing Turk, it is different tactic than playing other factions. So, my answer to you (perhaps disagreed by quite a few, looking at the replies here) is to pay more attention to the Jan.Inf. (sword unit that can shoot arrows)and Ott. Sipahi (horse archers). Even the Turcoman Foot can give a fight too after arrows run out. And you need those crossbow, many of them, against the heavily armoured Western troops later.
Annie
As Egyptian you can get Arbalesters, which punch big bloody holes through Knights. Arbs are a must for Late Egyptian armies.
Mamluk Cav have armor-piercing --- but don't think they can go head-up against knights. Use your Saracens to hold the knights and use your Mamluks to flank the Crusader infantry as they get locked up with your Muwahids/Almos (how do you have AMU if you're playing as Egypt? Mercenaries?). Once the infantry runs, just mob the knights from the back with your own infantry (Abyssinians & Ghazis both have AP) and chase down the crossbows.
Annie there are a few faults in your post... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Quote[/b] ]Also remember that when you use Heavy Janitors, since they are spears, they have a "F" (hold formation" by default. Select them and press "E" when engage lower skilled, non cav. units such as Woodsman and Billmen. At "F" they tend to have only a few guys fight and allow flanking. At "E", you will be amaze how fast they mob the battle field.
Not at all, JHI are not spears but halbardiers. They are in Engage. At least when I use them in my battles online (I haven't used them in SP yet). There would be no use of them in Hold as they have no supporting rows.
Quote[/b] ]and Ott. Sipahi (horse archers).
No they are melee, but I guess you were thinking about Turcoman Horse.
And I would add to one statement as well... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] ]At the same cost, Saracen has -1/3 combat stat while billmen has 2/4 combat stat, meaning the Saracen could hardly scratch the Billmen while the billmen can slowly chip away the Saracen.
They can a little more than chip away since they have AP. And AP works from Armour 3 on infantry and Armour 4 on cavalry. The Guide is wrong.
Btw, the Assembly has the Billmen as non-AP don't be fooled by this. So if you are watching Honestus... you know what to do. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
You re right Kraxis, I meant Turco Horse.
It is more likely I am confused about JHI being in "F", and perhaps accidentally hit "F" intended for other units. I remember seeing my guys trying to keep formation and I hit "E" to free them.
Annie
Well, I only consider SP, because MP is meaningless to me. In SP I always field the most expensive highest tier units I have available (Unless they're one of the few worthless units. I always have naval dominance (In my opinion if you don't have this, you're already losing) so cost is rarely a problem. I prefer to use small cores of high quality troops in a conservative manner in order to carefully grind down the enemy's greater numbers of lower quality troops.
Generally I field nothing but Janissaries in a Turkish endgame, disbanding all my older troops as time goes by, and just continually produce reinforcements in my production centers and ship them to the fronts.
I find that this approach causes my forces to end up with higher valor because they get such high kill ratios.
Also, if you're fielding the top level troops in a 16 unit army, I find that the enemy's reinforcements are meaningless since you can rout or crush any given wave of 16 with hardly any losses.
-Musashi
That's because the AI didn't do re-inforcement well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But if you play the catholic faction against the Turks, I would say bring in reinforcement is a way to counter the 16 JHI the enemy may field against you. And I already waged such battle: the Turks ressurrect with 3 stacks of soldiers, one of which is full of Heavy Jan.
Of course, trade is another AI weakness, as they didn't fully exploit the wealth of it. Naval superiority is a must. But not many factions can rely on trade. Germany and Poland, and especially Poland, are two hard factions to get trade going right. As Poland, I had to be extremely frugal on what troops I could buy.
Annie
MonkeyMan
12-12-2002, 00:50
Quote[/b] (Musashi @ Dec. 11 2002,02:27)]JHI can actually beat any infantry unit in the game aside from SAP and VG. Try it sometime. There are no sword units in the game stronger than CMAA and there's no way in hell CMAA could even scratch a unit of JHI.
Varangians and gothic foot spank the *$%* out of Heavy Jan, i agree that few buildable foot units do it but i was dissapointed with my Jan heavies, for the price i found normal Jannisaries a far better option. Given the price, the catholic faction with gothic foot knights or two units of billmen will kill the Jannisaries.
VG = Varangian Guard
Annie
Cousin Zoidfarb
12-12-2002, 01:26
Faisal, I find the eastern factions units too weak. Mamluke, and Mongol horsearchers were as accurate as the archers armed with longbows and composite bows could penetrate armour as well. I modded all units with the composite bow giving them longbow projectiles and gave them more projectiles. It`s easy. Remember, the English weren`t the first to defeat armoured knights with archery. You know what after playing with my changes the borders are pretty similar to what happened historically. Also take away spear unit charge bonuses. If you defend well in tight formation you lose your defense advantage when you charge. Try that.
Beavis:
Nothing wrong with modding the stats for fun. However, if you do the mod all the time, I think it removes the fun of having some defeats. I start some factions and got wiped out. In those defeats, I actually had fun because I tried something that didn't work. So, I put myself into the seat of the ruler of Egypt or other Muslim factions, and asked myself: "I don't have armour, so what could I do to win?" I feel just like in real life, you are dealt with the cards and you play with whatever you have.
If you are Iraq, you won't have the luxury of modding and turn the US into a neutral faction, or make them build the Abrham tanks out of papers. Or give yourself air superiority. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well, just my opinion folks. Modding is a lot of fun, I am sure. But I believe if you win in expert mode as Poland, without modding, you would feel quite good.
Annie
[EDIT: ah, I worked so hard, spamming a little bit, but most are entertaining (I hope) posts... and this is what I could have ... a bearded old man, bald even ... When will I be in the Toga party? 400 and above?]
war_blah
12-12-2002, 03:45
hmm, JHI are not "spear" type, they are "axe" type. If you look at those stats faqs you will notice VG, vikings, GFK, woodsmen are "axe" type too.
JHI: 5 1 3 3 8
VG: 4 .5 5 4 6
GFK: 5 0 6 6 8
Both has same charge bonus. All use Axe so all have AP.
JHI and VG pretty much equal on firepower(2 less def 1 more mel and 2 more morale) so i don't see why they should lose(In my game i beat the crap out of VG when using JHI). They are faster then VG so easier to do flanking with them.
Against GFK they will often lose because the -3 def difference. but 1 on 1 when i draw a long line formation, i always beat GFK because the 40/60 man difference and the "side flanking" bonus.
However, they will beat the crap out of Gothic knights because the +3 attack and +1 def against cavarly. and Gothic knights cost more.(PPl usually don't use GFK when they can use GK)
I really like JHI because it's multi-usage, combine with JI you will get a perfect infantry army.
War_blah:
I really like JHI because it's multi-usage, combine with JH you will get a perfect infantry army.
I'll try the combination of JHI and JI in MP to see how they will be doing against the Barney bunch. Of course, can't compare MP and SP...
Annie
war_blah
12-12-2002, 04:21
BTW, the reason why Abyssian Guards are "Expensive" is their support cost. 70 florin/year just doesn't sound right for what they can do.
In MP you probably going to be out of luck when use JHI + JI, the money cost is way too high.
Annie I had great success in a 15k battle last night with 4 JHI and 4 JI (the rest were 4 turcoman foot and 4 kwarazmian cav).
I defeated my opponent (it was 4v4) with my JHI, 3 JI, 1 Turcoman and 1 cav. Ok he was not the best, he attacked 1 JHI with 3 Feudal knights and another with three Order Foot in marching formation on Hold. But the rest fought on greatly and defeated him. I was just about to help out my allies when I was dropped... DAMN
Kongamato
12-12-2002, 18:06
I have been quite successful online with my army of:
3 Futuwwas
4 JI
4 JHI
2 Alan Cav
3 Khwarazmian Cav
If you want a replay of me using it and killing 1100 Byzantines in MP while still making newbie mistakes, I will upload it.
Leet Eriksson
12-12-2002, 18:44
thanks alot guys,you were alot of helpi have one last question,i tried a custom battle last night with some saracens against order footsoldiers(OFS) and knights(0 valour to all and no upgrades on agincourt),i was pretty amazed on how the saracens held the orderfoot soldiers while flanking them with a unit of ghazi.the main question is does protecting a flank of a unit increases its morale(i thought valour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)?
here is how it goes:
phase1: OFS
ghazi
SI
Phase 2:
OFS
SI
Phase 3:
OFS
I always distinguish between Valour from Morale(Honour in TWA tables) because 1 Valeur = +1 Weapon + 1 Defence + 2 Morale.
Order Foot and Saracen are pretty much equal, Order Foot has 1 weapon upgrade better, so this is not a big advantage to speak of. When you are flanked by Ghazi, who has 5 melee (and since your Ord.Foot is held down by Saracen) can chip away the Ord.Foot at easy.
Give me Saracen + Peasant against Ord.Foot, I think the odds are still in my favor. My point is, even Peasant charging Order Foot in the flank would make it run as long as the Saracen (or Chiv.Sgnt.) hold long enough. Give me Ghazi, even the AI can do it.
The trick on MP is that every one only has 16 slots. You gang 2x1 on 1 unit, you got 1x2 elsewhere.
I remember this anectdote:
One side (in a 4x4)
- Where are the rest of the French? I only see 2 units;
After a while of scouting:
- I only see the 2 French Chiv. Knights.
The other side, ally of the French replied in frustration:
- yeah, he has only 2 cav.
The French (I think he is really French too) protested:
- But high-quality ones
(I made some quick computation: Chiv Knight at 650, upgrade to 4 val, +3 weapons +3 armour has a cost of about 15k florin each, since it's a 4x4, he only has 25k to work with, so its about right, not fully armed to the teeth but close).
When the battle is close to the end, the French cavs. all received a dead-by-spears sentence and got executed on the spot, the French uttered famous last words:
- I'll bring a better army next time
And there is a deluge of answers:
- u bet
- not too difficult
- how low you can go...
When you bring 2 units to the battle field, facing 16 units army, doesn't matter how good your troops is and how good you are, being flanked and reared is too much a problem to handle.
Annie
Quote[/b] ]I'll try the combination of JHI and JI in MP to see how they will be doing against the Barney bunch. Of course, can't compare MP and SP...
Annie
I think you'll find that they're not quite the equal of a VG/TA army, but very very close. You could win such a battle by drawing on the superior speed (Far superior btw) of your JHI when compared to the Byz player's VG, and the slightly superior melee skills of your JI as compared to TAs, but it would require you to outcommander your opponent, definitely. In a straight up fistfight he's going to have the advantage.
Interestingly enough, JHI are quite well armored, have armor piercing melee, and are still rated a 'fast' unit. All things considered, they're a very versatile troop, and possibly the only heavily armored infantry that can move that fast. They're just not quite the equal of VGs in a fistfight.
-Musashi
DthB4Dishonor
12-13-2002, 08:13
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif You had me in dying with your story LadyAn. Sad thing is I've seen it done also.
RTKPaul
All_the_Sultan's_horses
12-14-2002, 07:50
i really begin to despair for the non-Turkish muslim factions. they have no good armoured infantry, and their heavy cavalry are lousier than Catholic knights. in SP one can just outnumber, but in MP? both sides have 16 units
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