I'm Not Entirely Happy About This

[MonkeyMan]

Copied post by Darksbane from the .com forum & answers:

**************************
new patch?
-----------------------------------------------------------

we know that in version 1.1 of the game, GA scoring is pretty much entirely screwed up - which removes much of the game's replayability.

Some of us suspect the AI's ability to launch multiple crusades is a bug.

The regional valor bonuses for unbuildable units is a bug (it's a bug for the same reason a typo in in-game text is a bug).

Can anyone say with authority whether or not patch 1.2 is in the works? If so, does it have a release date?

*******************************************

The chances are that there will not be another patch.

Gil ~ CA

*****************************


I don't want to mount an attack on the devs, I appriciate the work they do and will have to accept their decision on this. While I am pleased with the first patch. There are still things in the game that don't work and reduce my enjoyment of it (the command overflow in heirs is a particular pet hate of mine). One patch is great, but what makes MTW so different say from Half-Life that gets regular patches after many years of release, if only to support the thriving fanbase and mod based community.

I certainly will buy the Inevitable MTW add-on, but can we not expect a patch or two more beforehand. I really feel I must question who makes these decisions. Is it CA or Activision that determines:

1. The level of beta testing and subsequent rewriting of code.
2. Given code that works mostly, who gets to say that it should go gold and be released on the paying public.
3. Whether there should be patches and what priority is given to this after release support activity.

While I'm sure there are reasons, I have in past seen much better for a variety of games. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Swoosh So]

I think most peeps already knew that the addon will be the next patch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[MonkeyMan]

I must have missed that one.
Guees i only have to wait a year to get the game working then. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (MonkeyMan @ Dec. 10 2002,07:53)]What makes MTW so different say from Half-Life that gets regular patches after many years of release, if only to support the thriving fanbase and mod based community.
None of the following should be taken as dissing Valve Software, but various possible reasons are:

- more people play first-person shooters, so HL sold more in the first place
- maybe it's easier to find bugs in a game like HL
- maybe Valve licenses servers or game code, and the patches you're getting "for free" are in fact being paid for by other games companies
- the two HL expansions were developed externally, and they, along with mods such as Counter-Strike, have increased HL sales without any cost to Valve
- Valve doesn't do much apart except HL, whereas we're working on several other projects (yes, I know they do Steam)

Who knows? Nevertheless I admire them for being able to release that many helpful patches for everyone, and I know there are some bugs still in MTW. There will be an add-on, there's no particular secret or surprise there, and no doubt some of the bugs will be addressed in it.

Gil ~ CA

[Ckrisz]

So ... what's this add-on going to be, Giljay? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

yeah, could you leak just a teeny tiny bit about the theme and/or timeline this add-on will follow? (ancient:total war&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif is it in devealopement yet and if it is, can you give us an estimated release date?

[solypsist]

when you ask what the next add-on is going to be, it makes it looks like you haven't looked through the forums http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

but in case you've only recently arrived, it's a Viking Invasion add-on, at least in rumor.

[GilJaysmith]

Announcements coming very soon, that's all I can say...

We're very keen on secrecy here, and I have no intention of sacrificing my multi-million-pound salary, the prestige of working at Creative Assembly, and the love of my wife for my honourable and noble character, just to give you a week's jump on knowing what it is you'll be able to buy at the same time as everyone else :)

If you're running out of things to do, go buy a little Zen Garden. (Did you know that the configuration of a Zen Garden generally considered most harmonious to the eye actually resembles a tree, and that this is believed to represent the brain stem? Well you do now.)

EXTREMELY IMPORTANT EDIT: the above comments about Zen Gardens refer to their nature as amusing distractions, and shouldn't be taken as any kind of hint about any upcoming products (Thanks K :)

Gil ~ CA

[Kraellin]

gil,

you do realize that:
Quote[/b] ]...go buy a little Zen Garden... is going to be construed as a hint on what the add-on is going to be about, dont you? ;)

K.

[Krasturak]

Gah

Krast (tired of waiting for more information) has tried this Zen-Garden idea but the instruction book didn't tell Krast where in the Garden to stack the piles of skulls.

Any ideas?

[Musashi]

Quote[/b] ]I really feel I must question who makes these decisions. Is it CA or Activision that determines:

1. The level of beta testing and subsequent rewriting of code.
2. Given code that works mostly, who gets to say that it should go gold and be released on the paying public.
3. Whether there should be patches and what priority is given to this after release support activity.
Just to answer the question (As someone who once worked at Activision...) that would be Activision, Activision, and Activision. But try not to get down on their QA people, the QA department has little or no power. Marketing makes all the decisions.

-Musashi

[LadyAnn]

GAH Krast:
Pile'em next to the soup kitchen, of course.

Annie

[hoom]

A single patch for a game this complex sux http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Particularly since it mostly addressed issues that were identified before the game even came out and missed a bunch of issues identified by players http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Sure, I'll probably buy the add-on, but that will probably need it's own patch(es) too.

[HopAlongBunny]

So I can buy another game which may fix the bugs in this one?

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa

(tired...very tired)

[Xiahou]

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Dec. 10 2002,09:01)]
Quote[/b] (MonkeyMan @ Dec. 10 2002,07:53)]What makes MTW so different say from Half-Life that gets regular patches after many years of release, if only to support the thriving fanbase and mod based community.
None of the following should be taken as dissing Valve Software, but various possible reasons are:

- more people play first-person shooters, so HL sold more in the first place
- maybe it's easier to find bugs in a game like HL
- maybe Valve licenses servers or game code, and the patches you're getting "for free" are in fact being paid for by other games companies
- the two HL expansions were developed externally, and they, along with mods such as Counter-Strike, have increased HL sales without any cost to Valve
- Valve doesn't do much apart except HL, whereas we're working on several other projects (yes, I know they do Steam)

Who knows? Nevertheless I admire them for being able to release that many helpful patches for everyone, and I know there are some bugs still in MTW. There will be an add-on, there's no particular secret or surprise there, and no doubt some of the bugs will be addressed in it.

Gil ~ CA
Just as an fyi. Half-life, CS, TF, ect. servers are free to download for anyone. They run on the WON network, which is also free for any server/player to use.

I hope Im not understanding what you mean.

[solypsist]

Whereas in the past I was able to enjoy MTW despite the glitches and bug, I've just experienced a few that put me up there with the people who are present in this thread.
You pretty much get the shaft playing an Islamic faction.
Multiple crusades gotta go.
The GA points system is terribly off (never really was that much of a problem, since I was always winning, but now that I'm losing......)

Just joining the mob on this one.

[rasoforos]

well bying a game to correct the bugs of an other doesnt go well with me , its too microsoft-ish. i believe that before releasing any add-on the REALLY BIG bugs should be corrected and the patch available to the public for a considerable period of time. I would really hate to see GA still not working the day the add-on comes out.

[Musashi]

Perhaps a more decent solution would be for them to work on the add on which fixes the bugs, and when they release that, release the code fixes as a patch for the original game as well. It seems that would be relatively cost efficient and would generate some goodwill http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

-Musashi

[Xiahou]

Musashi, you practically read my mind. Fixing bugs in the addon is good- but they should also make the fixes available for those who dont purchase the addon. I think that could make everyone happy.

[Swoosh So]

X so true its called customer service http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I cant believe they would leave the game with ga bugs thats abit naff.

[Sandy-San]

totally on the button Mushashi - fix the gameplay mangling bugs for the add-on, but make the fix available for free download too.

otherwise, why bother putting GA in there in the first place?

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (Musashi @ Dec. 17 2002,02:36)]Perhaps a more decent solution would be for them to work on the add on which fixes the bugs, and when they release that, release the code fixes as a patch for the original game as well. It seems that would be relatively cost efficient and would generate some goodwill ;)

-Musashi
In terms of cost efficiency, what you're asking for there is for us to identify every change made in the add-on code, implement it in the original game's code, and then put both through QA. The add-on includes several new features, so we'd have to make sure that the code for them didn't get put into the patch, which might involve rewriting the bugfixes. This boils down to producing two products rather than one, but only being able to sell one. So it won't happen.

I'm sorry if I end up being the lightning rod for everyone's unhappiness over this, and I'm not exactly filled with a warm glow when I admit that there are bugs in the game which won't be patched for free. However, it's not my decision, I'm just telling you the way it is. There'll be an add-on, but no second patch.

Gil ~ CA

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (Xiahou @ Dec. 16 2002,23:09)]Just as an fyi. Half-life, CS, TF, ect. servers are free to download for anyone. They run on the WON network, which is also free for any server/player to use.
I hope Im not understanding what you mean.
What I mean is that, for example, I recall from reading the Quake licence agreement that there was a fee for commercially operating a Quake server, and the same may apply to Half-Life... the WON network may be shelling out in some way. I don't have time to check this, hence 'may', and I'm quite happy to accept that this particular thing may not be a revenue stream after all.

Gil ~ CA

[chunkynut]

I would also (for the record) like to voice my displeasure at this. I know that people have been saying for a long time that if MTW were a other product (car etc.) then this would be fixed immediately (or near as) at a the manufacturers (or garage) free of charge.

Of course computer games do not come with warranties or guaranties but in the UK all purchases are guarded by your statutory rights. One of which is if you are not happy with the product up to 30 days and you still have the receipt and the product is in a reasonable condition you are entitled to a full refund. If I had bought this game within 30 days of today i would i think take it back. * I understand that many people did before the first patch because the game would not run on their system (we saw many of their rants and complaints and if they had waited for the patch 30 days would have been long gone).

I have had many hours of fun with the game and I probably still will but ....

Without a further patch to the game to resolve problems that I am having with the game (some bugs stated in above replies) I am unhappy with the my purchase.

The game itself is without the bugs, is 95% of what i wanted in a medieval real time strategy(which is more than enough for me). This reply is not aimed at anyone in particular (especially not GilJaysmith who has relpied to this post with honesty).

* Im not sure theres more than 30 days of fun here before the bugs get annoying http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[MonkeyMan]

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Dec. 17 2002,09:32)]I'm sorry if I end up being the lightning rod for everyone's unhappiness over this, and I'm not exactly filled with a warm glow when I admit that there are bugs in the game which won't be patched for free. However, it's not my decision, I'm just telling you the way it is. There'll be an add-on, but no second patch.

Gil ~ CA
I'm sure I speak for most here, when i say thank you to Gil for the work he does here and no doubt the free time he gives up to help us all out. I'm sure you understand that no dissatisfaction is aimed at you personally, I know for a fact that everone here is very pleased with a superb game that we enjoy. I think the general idea is that we love the game as it is but see that it could be better still, and while i am happy to buy an expansion pack other's obviously are less happy.

However in your new role as lightningrod I'm sure some would appreciate if you would pass on our various lightningbolts to wherever your 'earth' point is and the people who these decisions are made by.

Thanks Gil http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[youssof_Toda]

It doesn't realy surprise me we are left here with an unfinished product and that we have to pay for an add-on to get some bugs fixed. It's ok Gil I'm (we are?) used to it and I know it is not you who decides about these matters (right?), but still it remains irritating.

[Sandy-San]

anyone else feel their prinicples against warez and cracks starting to fade away? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[MonkeyMan]

Quote[/b] (Sandy-San @ Dec. 17 2002,10:51)]anyone else feel their prinicples against warez and cracks starting to fade away? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well no, you want a free game go make one yourself, or steal it from a shop like a good honest thief.

[Sandy-San]

oh, I don't want a free game - I just want the game I already paid for fixed, and don't really think any of us should have to pay for that.

I don't condone piracy, infringement of IPR or anything else in that area (before any else tries to jump on this) but if the game is not patched, if it was sold with faults that render elements unplayable, and the developers/publishers refuse to fix it without making us pay again, is that fair?

[MonkeyMan]

Quote[/b] (Sandy-San @ Dec. 17 2002,11:51)]oh, I don't want a free game - I just want the game I already paid for fixed, and don't really think any of us should have to pay for that.

I don't condone piracy, infringement of IPR or anything else in that area (before any else tries to jump on this) but if the game is not patched, if it was sold with faults that render elements unplayable, and the developers/publishers refuse to fix it without making us pay again, is that fair?
Well to be honest the developers and publishers have absolutely NO obligation or responsability to release patches, further from making the game do what it says on the box. It should work with all the hardware it says it does, and probably do the other things on the box - battles with over 10,000, V&V's etc. etc.

To my knowledge it does do this. Certainly the origional design internally in CA was to have a game that worked in every aspect but this simply does not happen in any modern piece of software.

The reasons patches are released for games are

1. To make it work as it claimed in the specs.
2. PR, pure and simple to keep people happy and get a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
3. To implement new feature's, fix old ones to increase their income. See Gils reasons about the HL patches.

Quite simply put they don't have a responsability to release another free patch and any extra work they do, they rightly or wrongly feel they should recieve further money for.

I can only assume (seriously or not) that you were inferring you were thinking about stealing the MTW add on once released. Quite simply put you have no right to do so.

Now don't get me wrong on this, I would love another free patch. I've recieved such in past on other games, but did not have an automatic right to such a thing.

If you really feel so strongly about this, perhaps Gil or someone else can provide you with a contact address to send a formal complaint to Activision, outlining your grievances.
*************************************************
edit - which of these do you feel the game currently doesn't do?:

Epic scale 3D battles featuring over 10000 troops. With hundreds of distinct battlefields from the lush farmlands of Western Europe to the arid deserts of Northern Africa.
Spectacular Castle Sieges. Pound castles into the dust with a vast array of siege weaponry, including: Siege Cannons, Mangonels and Ballistae.
12 playable factions and over 100 different unit types each with distinct playing styles including: the English, German, Byzantine, French and Turkish Empires.
Play as a famous Historical Hero - including Richard the Lionheart, Joan of Arc, Saladin and Frederick Barbarrosa, and engage in historical campaigns including, The Hundred Years War, The Crusades and The Mongol Invasions.
RPG-style character development - Kings, Generals and Heirs develop vices, virtues and abilities that reflect their actions throughout the campaign.
Custom Battle: Fight a one-off battles in a ‘sand box’ mode. Set a budget, buy up enough soldiers for two armies, and go to it on the battlefield of your choice This is a great way of perfecting your grasp of battlefield tactics.
Historical Battles: Fight one of the standalone battles based on a famous historical event. These set piece ‘missions’ give you the chance to change history or do better than the original commanders.
Historical Campaigns: Fight through a series of battles covering the career of a great leader, or fight the key engagements of an important campaign.
Multiplayer: Search for servers/hosts or act as one for a multiplayer game of Medieval: Total War. This allows you to play against other human opponents over a LAN or the Internet providing you have a suitable network connection.
Battle Replays: The Battle system allows you to save a record of the action. Here, you can watch re-runs of your greatest triumphs or, should the medieval idea of (virtual) flagellation appeal, your greatest defeats
Map Editor: This allows you to use one of the game creation tools to create your own battlefields.

System Requirements

MINIMUM CONFIGURATION
Windows 98, Windows 2000, Windows ME or Windows XP (Windows NT is not supported)
Intel Pentium II 350Mhz MMX or AMD processor with supported Direct3D video card
128 MB RAM
4x CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive
1.4 GB free hard disk space plus space for saved games (additional space required for Windows swap-file and DirectX 8 installation)
16 MB Direct3D capable video card with DirectX 8.1 compatible driver
Windows Media Player 7.0 or higher (not on CD; available at www.microsoft.com)
Keyboard
Mouse
RECOMMENDED
750 MHz or faster Intel Pentium III or AMD processor
128 MB or more RAM
8x or faster CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive
1.4 GB free hard disk space plus space for saved games
64 MB or greater Direct3D capable video card.

The recommended specification is required to play the LAN or Internet mode. For this, a network card and/or modem are needed. IDEAL
1.2 GHz or faster Intel Pentium III or AMD processor
256 MB or more RAM
8x or faster CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive
1.4 GB free hard disk space plus space for saved games
Fast 64 MB Direct3D capable video card

[Sandy-San]

calm down monkeyman - my comments were meant to be fairly facetious - I won't pirate any add-on, because I will probably get a review copy, and if not I will buy one, but not everyone has the money to buy all the games they want, especially if they feel they have already got a raw deal.

When you started this thread, you said:

"There are still things in the game that don't work and reduce my enjoyment of it."

I agree. We all want a second patch. some of us don't want to wait until an add-on before the problems (you mentioned at least one) are fixed. some of us don't think it it right (morally, legally, warm-fuzzy-feelingly, whatever) that we have to pay to fix things in the game that don't work and reduce our enjoyment of it. Instead of getting tied up in knots about this, or berating CA, whose presence here I applaud, let's go to Activision with our complaints.

Let's all of us on the board that want to see a second patch start a petition calling on Activision to support the MTW community and to develop a second, free patch to remedy the major bugs in MTW 1.1. it might work (but I doubt it).

As you say, its about that warm fuzzy PR-feeling, but that warm fuzzy feeling creates feedback and post-gold testing for developers, continued sales for the publishers and a positive gaming experience for us all.

(and sorry to the developers. I am sure it must be boring having to work on fix patches rather than crunch some new code, but there are clearly some niggles that could do with a look at)

now i really must get on with some work...

[A.Saturnus]

The developers have no responisbility of bringing out patches unless the sold product doesn`t do what it`s supposed to do. Even if the last is the case, you have a right to get your money back but not to get a patch. However, the reason why it might be clever to bring out new patches unless the game works good is "product loyalty", a feature many companies have forgotten about (some market analysers are the opinion this is the reason for the problems of the music industry and not the napsters - and I think they are partly right). If a company brings out good products and care for them, they have a good chance to be liked by consumers so they will buy future products from this company. Blizzard for example is known to bring out qualitative products and care for the users and their needs. That`s why you can buy Blizzard products usually unseen. But this only works if product loyalty works both ways. Companies that bring out products without any further support for it, are often enough not punished by the consumers. It`s the consumers that define the market.

[jajknight]

Being a developer myself I would venture to guess that 99% of the players have no clue how extremely complex the code base of a game like MTW is. It's probably over a million lines of code. The simple fact is that even if there were 10 patches there would still be bugs and still be people asking for another patch.

Software this complex is never 100% complete or bug free. There is always something that can or "should" be changed.

[rpasell]

Quote[/b] (jajknight @ Dec. 17 2002,11:48)]Being a developer myself I would venture to guess that 99% of the players have no clue how extremely complex the code base of a game like MTW is. It's probably over a million lines of code. The simple fact is that even if there were 10 patches there would still be bugs and still be people asking for another patch.

Software this complex is never 100% complete or bug free. There is always something that can or "should" be changed.
Therein lies the problem with software development. The doesn't seem to be a realization that a product release no matter how complex should work. If it doesn't work, it should be fixed. Pretty much every industry does it this way. If the product doesn't work a recall is issued, or a refund given. Software is the only industry where when a product is released we almost expect it to have bugs, and are surprised if it works without a bug. Credit this to terrible QA in the industry, and Microsoft's unwillingness to let anyone but the public be there "Beta-testers".

[Ktonos]

Well, many of you may have encountered better games and much better support for games but that does not justificate you to demand support because you have already payed for something you have not recieved. None said that the game will be bugfree nor that there will be patches to fix them. And I am sure that this game costs as much as other ones,less enjoyable without support, wich you have purchased.

[rpasell]

Quote[/b] (Ktonos @ Dec. 17 2002,12:03)]Well, many of you may have encountered better games and much better support for games but that does not justificate you to demand support because you have already payed for something you have not recieved. None said that the game will be bugfree nor that there will be patches to fix them. And I am sure that this game costs as much as other ones,less enjoyable without support, wich you have purchased.
When you purchase a product you absolutely have a reasonable expectation that it will work and not have bugs.

[Ktonos]

Quote[/b] (rpasell @ Dec. 17 2002,20:10)]
Quote[/b] (Ktonos @ Dec. 17 2002,12:03)]Well, many of you may have encountered better games and much better support for games but that does not justificate you to demand support because you have already payed for something you have not recieved. None said that the game will be bugfree nor that there will be patches to fix them. And I am sure that this game costs as much as other ones,less enjoyable without support, wich you have purchased.
When you purchase a product you absolutely have a reasonable expectation that it will work and not have bugs.
Did you expected that it wouldn't have bugs? 70% of the games have bugs. And usually the 30% are the worst games among them.

[rpasell]

No, I did expect it to have bugs, that's the whole point. Read my first post in the thread and you'll get a better idea of where I'm coming from. The software industry doesn't do proper testing before release because they know the public expects the products to have bugs. MTW in my view worked as advertised, and is a great product. Does it have issues they need work? -- yes, do I consider them bugs? -- not really. I was talking about a the software industry on a broader scale.

The only people who will ever fix this problem are those of us who develop/code for a living. If we don't except responsibility for the products we release we deserve the bad reputation we get.

[Puzz3D]

IIRC, GilJaysmith said the the game had 800,000+ lines of code.

[YunDog]

Chaps,
by the sounds of Gils tone I think we can walk away from our patch hopes and dreams and expectations and blugeoning him or CA with post after post is not going to change the inescapable fact that the 'decision has been made' - the work on the add-on is well underway if not in full swing and this means. If your going to make comparisons its goto be D2 a great game with many more patches but some would also say this game was incomplete without the add-on which I remember right was a full price add-on not a half price one like MISTW. Anyway the upshot is crying about isnt going to get a patch in fact at this stage nothing is - lets put together a check list of things that the add on MUST HAVE before it will be embraced and purchased by the owners of the MTW game and the MTW community. Think positive dudes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[ToranagaSama]

When this thread was started I was going to make a post quite similar to GJS', but never got around to finishing and posting it.

People, the reality when comparing the "support" of games like Half-Life, Quake, Warcraft, etc. is that while the TW series may be considered successful it can in no way be compared "dollar"wise with the likes of some THE most successful games of ALL time

TotalWar may actually be one of the great FUN games of all time, but in terms of dollars the Devs, et al., are still shooting for the stars.

As with any business, any household, any individual, an entity can ONLY do what they can afford. PATCHES COST MONEY While TotalWar has been successful in finding an "audience", in order for CA/Activision to continue with TW as a "profitable" enterprise certain fiscal discipline is necessary which FRANKLY must take precedent over the prospect of "perfecting" game code. This is simply a reality of life.

In comparing the "support" of Half-Life/Valve to TW/CA, one should also consider each game's "community" in that comparision. So, people, how do the communities compare?

GJS' remarks regarding Counterstrike, attempts to reflect certain realities beneficial to Valve/Sierra that ARE NOT EXISTANT for CA/Activision. Highlighting this so incredibly clearly is the simple fact that the Half-Life community loves its game to a degree that they are WILLING to PAY (that is provide revenue stream) for software that can very well be obtained for FREE

In comparison the TW community has demonstrated time and again in this forum that they are LOATHED to fork up "extra" dollars

Example? It would be relatively simple, quick and cheap for CA to add the MTW improvements to Shogun and charge say US$20 or $30. This would be a VERY nice profit maker, "if" the community would pay for it. Profit which would allow for a "better" TW. Butttt, does the "community" embrace this? NOOOOO, what does the "community" demand? Romans or some such thing Something not so simple, nor quick, nor cheap Logic would serve that CA could probably make a "better" Romans or whatever's next if, in between, they could get a couple of profitable Add-Ons.

Furthering the example, Campaign Multiplay, does the "community" desire C-MP? Yessss Has the "community" demonstrated that they would, gladly, PAY for a Add-On for just C-MP?? Noooo, quite to the contrary

Poll: Would you like, fill in the blank?
Community: Yes
Poll: How Much Would You Pay?
Community: $0 (overwhelming majority)

Comparing TW to HL is like comparing a Volkswagen to a BMW.

Lastly, on the other end of the spectrum, how about a CA/TotalWar comparison to say, Relic/Homeworld??

Has there be a Homeworld add-on?? Not by Relic there hasn't There was Cataclysm, which was done outside of Relic and its been 3-4 years and NOOOO add-on nor HW2

One can be grateful that CA is maintaining its focus. The alternative could be something akin to Relic's (one day before we die, soon to be realeased) "Impossible Creatures"; a game quite far from a True-3D Space-based RTS game. Don't know Impossible Creatures? Think Black and White done Homeworld style. Not exactly what HW fans are waiting for http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif We could be in their shoes.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Dec. 10 2002,10:01)]- Valve doesn't do much apart except HL, whereas we're working on several other projects (yes, I know they do Steam)

Gil ~ CA
Ahhhh....a bit surprised at the above comment. What exactly does "...several other projects...." mean?

Letter from a Concerned Fan:

I like Valve, I like Id, I like companies that do what they do and don't do what they don't [gramatic inflection intended.]

Sorry, all of a sudden I have this foreboding feeling. I do hope you mean other Total War related projects

As in the example of Relic, Homeworld fans aren't really interested in Impossible Creatures. Please CA don't make their (and others) mistake.

Does anyone know of a single developer that's successfully made a jump from genre to genre; or project to project?

The great Id does Wolfenstein/Doom in various guies, underneath its the same game call it Quake if you want to. Same for Sid Meier. Successful developers do what they do.

Look at Chris Taylor, Mr. Total Annihilation, years on what, Dungeon Siege, while TA fans go waiting. Similarly, for Carmack's old friend, Black and White? Doesn't look much like Quake to me. Examples of folks doing what they Don't

CA do what you do, the melding of TBS with RTS within a historically based setting. That's it. The pursuit of perfection is a worthy endeavor. Do it til its perfect, push the envelope.

One can only hope, the "projects" lead to some "licensing" revenue ala Id and the Quake Engine. That would be super cool.

~Concerned Fan

------

BTW, speaking of "external development", why can't C-MP be externally developed?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Xiahou]

Not to be overly-argumentative, but some of the things you base your arguments on really are not entirely true.

Chris Taylor or "Mr. TotalAnnihilation" as you call him was already well-known in the industry for developing various sports games well before TA came out. I should mention though that I do agree with you pretty much that when dev houses try to jump genres they usually fail. Also, about your comment saying people are willing to pay for CS when they can download it for free.... Counter-Strike is free to anyone who owns Half-Life, people that dont and still want to play CS can buy it as a stand-alone. I seriously doubt people who already own Half-Life are running out and buying CS.

Secondly, I beg to differ when you imply only highly successful companies can afford to put out more than a patch or two. I prefer to think that you have the horse before the cart on that one... They are successful because of their reputation for being dedicated to the long term support of a product- as opposed to a reputation of being only interested in doing what will put money in their pockets. If you were to look back Before Blizzard was the powerhouse that it is today (ala WC1) you would still find a very well supported game. Something Valve, Blizzard and CA have all done is make a great game that is very successful(half-life/WC2/M:TW. The next step is to make the consumers feel good about their purchase by giving it plenty of patches/balance tweaks ect. so they keep coming back to a company they trust for future offerings. I think everyone has already read above about things Valve has done, so Id also like to point out how Blizzard has consistently made patches available for original titles until and even after the release of expansion sets.


I think CA/Activision is playing a dangerous game by giving only minimal support(ie one patch). This is made more glaring by the fact that bug fixes will be made available in a expansion that we must pay for. Bug fixes are not "features" to be put into add-ons.... they should be patched. As it stands right now, I would be hesitant about buying anything made by CA,(even though I love M:TW and have had few problems with it) as they are leaving me with the feeling that they are only about squeezing as much money they can out of a product and not concerned about the comsumer. Sure this may be true of companies like Blizzard as well, but at least they arent so transparent about it.