FGM: 1,026 new cases in 3 month in the UK

[Strike For The South]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/23/nhs-new-cases-female-genital-mutilation-fgm-three-months

Remember kids all cultures are equal. The only reason yours seems more advanced is because of latitude and the prevalence of pack animals. 75% of these cases are self reported, these poor girls.

[Fragony]

There is only one thing that has nothing to do with it

[Husar]

16543

[Papewaio]

This might surprise you as a multiculturalist, but I don't think all cultures, or all facets of culture are equal.

If it was actually true that all cultures were equal then our own would be equal to its previous and future selves. If that was true there would be no point in equal rights, suffragettes, removing slavery as our culture would be just as equal now as then.

No need for new songs, food, art, science, engineering it's all equal...

[CrossLOPER]

There is only one thing that has nothing to do with it
My Bisquick pancakes did not turn out that well this morning. Do you think that there is only one thing that has nothing to do with it that could have something to do with it that could have done something to not do with it?

[Fragony]

My Bisquick pancakes did not turn out that well this morning. Do you think that there is only one thing that has nothing to do with it that could have something to do with it that could have done something to not do with it?

Yeah, muslims in general don't eat bisquik pancakes. I am sure that there is the argument of death that some actually do eat bisquit pancakes, but we would get adrift in a the topic about genital-mutilation. I peronally think it's not a problem if they don't eat pancakes really, that's voluntary, I just don't get the logic as I am really bad at leftist logic, something makes me not getting it. I suspect it's being reasonable.
,
To be fair, it's also a practise among hindoe's in incredibly wtf India

[Gilrandir]

Personally I don't see much difference between FGM and circumcision: both are performed against the will of the victim, both are justified by some religious tenets, both are physiologically arbitrary/optional.

[Pannonian]

Personally I don't see much difference between FGM and circumcision: both are performed against the will of the victim, both are justified by some religious tenets, both are physiologically arbitrary/optional.

AFAIK circumcision isn't common in the UK. Britons go to religious congregations every Jewish sabbath to sing songs of praise (and abuse), but circumcision isn't a requirement. Appropriately coloured scarves are an adequate substitute.

[Hooahguy]

Personally I don't see much difference between FGM and circumcision: both are performed against the will of the victim, both are justified by some religious tenets, both are physiologically arbitrary/optional.
Eh, with circumcision there isnt really any significant medical benefit or negative aspect, at least none that I know of. But for FGM from what Ive read up on it, its overwhelmingly negative. Personally while I feel that circumcision is not a big deal I do understand why some people dont like the whole "against the kids will" thing.


Britons go to religious congregations every Jewish sabbath to sing songs of praise (and abuse), but circumcision isn't a requirement. Appropriately coloured scarves are an adequate substitute.
Huh?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Huh?

Football matches are on Saturdays.

He's also correct, Circumcision never really caught on here, it occurs to me that it may have become more popular in the US because of the higher number of Jewish doctors who would have been naturalised to it.

We were practising FGM in this country up to 100 years ago for the same reasons they do in other parts of the world - because we were Misogynist monsters.

[Hooahguy]

Football matches are on Saturdays.
Oh right, forgot about that bit. :laugh4:


He's also correct, Circumcision never really caught on here, it occurs to me that it may have become more popular in the US because of the higher number of Jewish doctors who would have been naturalised to it.


I read somewhere that circumcision for Christians was a puritanical thing to supposedly prevent masturbation which would explain why it was so popular in the US but Im fairly certain that Jewish doctors have little to no importance here. Jewish circumcisions are not done in a hospital but in a synagogue instead, and I think you highly overestimate how many Jewish doctors there are.

Personally I think that banning it is a silly move and wont stop the people doing it since its done primarily for religious reasons. All it will do it make them go underground to perform the ceremony.

[Greyblades]

We were practising FGM in this country up to 100 years ago for the same reasons they do in other parts of the world - because we were Misogynist monsters

Not according to Wikipedia; the only guy doing fgm in the UK in the 1800's was kicked out of his society as a quack.
Citation needed.

[Idaho]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/23/nhs-new-cases-female-genital-mutilation-fgm-three-months

Remember kids all cultures are equal. The only reason yours seems more advanced is because of latitude and the prevalence of pack animals. 75% of these cases are self reported, these poor girls.

LOL. Coming from someone who lives in a place where humans were bought and sold and treated as property for 200 years. Killed, raped and tortured with full support from the law. You only let black people vote 40 years ago. So your society is a model of forward thinking virtue? Don't make me laugh.

[Idaho]

FGM is a big problem and the solution doesn't involve making high handed veiled racist points about barbarous races. It involves education, social services, police and the wider community.

[Greyblades]

LOL. Coming from someone who lives in a place where humans were bought and sold and treated as property for 200 years. Killed, raped and tortured with full support from the law. You only let black people vote 40 years ago. So your society is a model of forward thinking virtue? Don't make me laugh.

Found the progressive.

[Fragony]

FGM is a big problem and the solution doesn't involve making high handed veiled racist points about barbarous races. It involves education, social services, police and the wider community.

How can it be racist if islam is ths the common dominator over various culures, just asking. if you choose to ignore that, can I please gently file you under S for Supporter of genital mutilation? Can't be both at the same time, non possible, sant reasone

[Gilrandir]

Eh, with circumcision there isnt really any significant medical benefit or negative aspect, at least none that I know of. But for FGM from what Ive read up on it, its overwhelmingly negative. Personally while I feel that circumcision is not a big deal I do understand why some people dont like the whole "against the kids will" thing.


Both are ultimately unnecessary mutilations. I'm sure given the right PR, the attitude to FGM might change from negative to neutral (or even positive - given a VERY good PR).

[Beskar]

Both are ultimately unnecessary mutilations. I'm sure given the right PR, the attitude to FGM might change from negative to neutral (or even positive - given a VERY good PR).

I doubt it. FGM is the equal of cutting off the glans of the penis. It pretty much removes the enjoyment of sex from the woman with the argument that it will make them less likely to cheat.

[Fragony]

And there's the difference, circumsation of the penis makes sense given the medical conditions at the time, genital mutilation of a vagina is sexual abuse, that is something that is just incredibly cruel.

[Strike For The South]

LOL. Coming from someone who lives in a place where humans were bought and sold and treated as property for 200 years. Killed, raped and tortured with full support from the law. You only let black people vote 40 years ago. So your society is a model of forward thinking virtue? Don't make me laugh.

And you are importing people who do worse things in the here and now. but by all means, continue with your pithy history lesson.

I enjoy being lectured on my countries history by someone whose nation state manged to rape two seperate continents.

[Strike For The South]

FGM is a big problem and the solution doesn't involve making high handed veiled racist points about barbarous races. It involves education, social services, police and the wider community.

I forgot the part where cutting off someones clitoris was racist. I'm sure throwing money and community meetings at the problem will solve it.

[Hooahguy]

Both are ultimately unnecessary mutilations. I'm sure given the right PR, the attitude to FGM might change from negative to neutral (or even positive - given a VERY good PR).
That could be said about any type of body modification like ear gauges or body piercings.

[Greyblades]

I believe male circumcision should not be done to newborns, only to consenting adults.

[Beskar]

I forgot the part where cutting off someones clitoris was racist. I'm sure throwing money and community meetings at the problem will solve it.

The cases of FGM are generally done aboard in areas such as Pakistan, they fly their daughters out there to do it.
I am pretty such educating people on the dangers and the fact it is basically sexual abuse will make them start reconsidering this choice instead of your choice of... what exactly? :shrug:

[Strike For The South]

The cases of FGM are generally done aboard in areas such as Pakistan, they fly their daughters out there to do it.
I am pretty such educating people on the dangers and the fact it is basically sexual abuse will make them start reconsidering this choice instead of your choice of... what exactly? :shrug:

The UK needs to a better job of assimilating their immigrants. I have no problem with immigration (though it should be scaled back in Europe). I find anti-immigration to be reactionary. The American assimilation model is just better than the European multicultural model.

I do not think the education will have the effect you think it will but we may have to disagree on that.

You need to focus on turning these people British.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

FGM is a big problem and the solution doesn't involve making high handed veiled racist points about barbarous races. It involves education, social services, police and the wider community.


The cases of FGM are generally done aboard in areas such as Pakistan, they fly their daughters out there to do it.
I am pretty such educating people on the dangers and the fact it is basically sexual abuse will make them start reconsidering this choice instead of your choice of... what exactly? :shrug:

FGM is designed to reduce the female's interest in sex - it is effective.

No amount of "education" will change this fact, it's not like trying to get people to believe humans have an effect on the climate, or that we evolved from lower primates. This is about culture, you have to forcibly change the culture which sees women as sex objects to be mutilated for the satisfaction of men. you do this with arrests, fines and lengthy prison sentences alongside public condemnation of the practice and its adherents.

Not through passive community outreach that is openly scoffed at.

FGM is something practiced by cultures who see what we consider "sexual abuse" as a form of "piety".

[Beskar]

You need to focus on turning these people British.

That is some rhetoric, but how do you turn them British? You already ruled out education and social outreach as possibilities.


This is about culture, you have to forcibly change the culture which sees women as sex objects to be mutilated for the satisfaction of men. you do this with arrests, fines and lengthy prison sentences alongside public condemnation of the practice and its adherents.

This is already done. So is the status quo all that is needed? If not, what else can we add?

[Greyblades]

Don't scream racist every time a brown person is arrested for acting out his culture's less civilized traditions.

[Noncommunist]

That is some rhetoric, but how do you turn them British? You already ruled out education and social outreach as possibilities.

Whatever you did with the Welsh, Scots, Cornish, and Irish seemed to work for some time.


No amount of "education" will change this fact, it's not like trying to get people to believe humans have an effect on the climate, or that we evolved from lower primates. This is about culture, you have to forcibly change the culture which sees women as sex objects to be mutilated for the satisfaction of men. you do this with arrests, fines and lengthy prison sentences alongside public condemnation of the practice and its adherents.

Unfortunately, anthropogenic climate change and evolution are up for debate because of culture too. Plenty of people get educated on them in school and but choose belief in one or the other based on the position of their family. Even smart people capable of analyzing the issue can end up with the wrong view due to their increased capacity for mental gymnastics that validates their emotionally driven opinions.

[Beskar]

Don't scream racist every time a brown person is arrested for acting out his culture's less civilized traditions.

I haven't done. I simply don't tar all people with the same brush, things always go wrong that way.

It is wrong as people who believe in individual liberty and justice to lump people together, because it would betray our own principles. Judge the person innocent until proven guilty.

Aren't these the values of our western democracy?

[Viking]

The American assimilation model is just better than the European multicultural model.

I note that this supposed superior assimilation model has yet to properly merge the American populations of European and African origins.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is already done. So is the status quo all that is needed? If not, what else can we add?

Accept that it's a facet of Pakistani and African culture and be more pro-active about it.

Also, counter to what Greyblades said a lot of Pakistanis are actually Indo-Iranian, ethnically speaking, so they don't qualify as "brown" - and Greyblades needs to stop incorrectly applying an American racial slur, too.


Whatever you did with the Welsh, Scots, Cornish, and Irish seemed to work for some time.

That must be why the Welsh will refuse to speak English to the English in Wales just to be perverse, why the Scots just held a referendum on breaking up the UK, why the Welsh set fire to English holiday homes and why the Irish have been killing the "English" and each over for the past hundred years.

Oh... wait...

Don't even get me STARTED on the Cornish.

[Idaho]

The UK needs to a better job of assimilating their immigrants... You need to focus on turning these people British.

The absence of some kind of aggressive flag-waving cultural orthodoxy that can be agreed on as "British" is one of this nation's best features. American patriotism both amuses and revolts me.

[Greyblades]

Also, counter to what Greyblades said a lot of Pakistanis are actually Indo-Iranian, ethnically speaking, so they don't qualify as "brown" - and Greyblades needs to stop incorrectly applying an American racial slur, too.
Firstly: flippancy, look it up.
Second, American racial slur? The hell? Saying black and white people is just acceptable terminology but brown people is a slur? And since when was the term Pakistan specific?

[Idaho]

I forgot the part where cutting off someones clitoris was racist. I'm sure throwing money and community meetings at the problem will solve it.

I don't doubt you forget it.

Your opening salvo was a typical small minded construction. Delicately layering ignorance upon suggestion upon prejudice. You didn't actually make a definitive statement - just hinted at it.

Why don't you take your opening post and give us some more detail? What did you mean by it? Perhaps there is some true wisdom we can use, obfuscated by a want of time or articulation.

[Fragony]

I don't doubt you forget it.

Your opening salvo was a typical small minded construction. Delicately layering ignorance upon suggestion upon prejudice. You didn't actually make a definitive statement - just hinted at it.

Why don't you take your opening post and give us some more detail? What did you mean by it? Perhaps there is some true wisdom we can use, obfuscated by a want of time or articulation.

I'll do it for him, you know in what communities this takes place, who are you kidding besides yourself.

[Idaho]

I'll do it for him, you know in what communities this takes place, who are you kidding besides yourself.

Essentially equitorial Africa:

http://www.undispatch.com/map-of-the-day-the-countries-where-female-genital-mutilation-is-rampant/

[Fragony]

Essentially equitorial Africa:

http://www.undispatch.com/map-of-the-day-the-countries-where-female-genital-mutilation-is-rampant/

It happens there as well, but you know perfectly well that in the UK it are mostly what you euphoricaly call Asians. The UK is not the whole world, just a tiny island that has severe problems with people with a certain religion.

Can I call you heartless for just looking away

[Idaho]

We have no severe problems with any religion in the UK. Looking out my window the place seems quite orderly.

[Fragony]

We have no severe problems with any religion in the UK. Looking out my window the place seems quite orderly.

That's the problem ain't it, it doesn't affect you so you don't give a crap. It's a trick we played at hide and seek, cover your eyes and you are invisible. Never worked.

[Noncommunist]

That must be why the Welsh will refuse to speak English to the English in Wales just to be perverse, why the Scots just held a referendum on breaking up the UK, why the Welsh set fire to English holiday homes and why the Irish have been killing the "English" and each over for the past hundred years.

Oh... wait...

Don't even get me STARTED on the Cornish.

That's why I said for some time. Now, the Welsh are reverting back to using Welsh, but that means they used to speak English a lot in the past.

[Gilrandir]

I doubt it. FGM is the equal of cutting off the glans of the penis. It pretty much removes the enjoyment of sex from the woman with the argument that it will make them less likely to cheat.


And there's the difference, circumsation of the penis makes sense given the medical conditions at the time, genital mutilation of a vagina is sexual abuse, that is something that is just incredibly cruel.

I said why the two are similar. I will repeat if someone forgot: 1) done against the will of the victim, 2) has no MEDICAL justification, 3) based on religious prejudices.
Put in more white PR for FGM and black PR for circumcision and you will find it difficult to emotionally counterpose them.



That could be said about any type of body modification like ear gauges or body piercings.

See above for the difference. The ones mentioned by you don't stem from any religious tenets (except the pagan ones, perhaps, - but I doubt if those who pierce themselves realize that) and they are done at one's free choice.

[rory_20_uk]

Circumcision often is done for medical reasons and regardless of the reason reduces the risk of some specific types of cancer as well as the risk of disease transmission. Yes, there findings are incidental to the original reasons.

Female genital mutilation has no such benefits and has a significant risk of mortality and morbidity.

~:smoking:

[Gilrandir]

Circumcision often is done for medical reasons and regardless of the reason reduces the risk of some specific types of cancer as well as the risk of disease transmission. Yes, there findings are incidental to the original reasons.

Female genital mutilation has no such benefits and has a significant risk of mortality and morbidity.

~:smoking:

Has any research ever tried to find benefits of FGM and any risks it might reduce? I don't think so.

Motrality and morbidity, you say? Make some circumcisions under the sanitary conditions similar to those under which FGM is often made and we may not notice the difference.

Like I said - add some black PR to circumcision - or run a campaign against it in major media - and you will not know the idea in a couple of years.

[Montmorency]

You're being really thick lately, huh?

Even if the procedures were performed under professional medical conditions and standards, there would always be an increased risk of chronic pain and vaginal infection or UTI, more so the more tissue is removed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We have no severe problems with any religion in the UK. Looking out my window the place seems quite orderly.

That's funny, because looking out my window it looks severely run down, and I see clumps of people from different groups all huddled together, unwilling to mix. The Chinese sometimes look like shoals of fish.

[Pannonian]

That's funny, because looking out my window it looks severely run down, and I see clumps of people from different groups all huddled together, unwilling to mix. The Chinese sometimes look like shoals of fish.

You need to clean that square bit of dirt on your window.

[Beskar]

Well, PVC sees does see Animal Farm outside of his window.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, PVC sees does see Animal Farm outside of his window.

Err, no.

That was a decade ago - these days I live within a mile of Idaho.

[Papewaio]

That's why I said for some time. Now, the Welsh are reverting back to using Welsh, but that means they used to speak English a lot in the past.

Because until the 1960's the only language not allowed to be spoken in law courts was Welsh. All other language speakers could get a translator whilst Welsh speakers would get fined with contempt of court if they spoke their language.

It is only in the last fifty years that a lot of bans on speaking or writing or learning Welsh have been lifted.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's why I said for some time. Now, the Welsh are reverting back to using Welsh, but that means they used to speak English a lot in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treachery_of_the_Blue_Books

Learn to understand the hatred, then live through it.

Better yet, live in a better country.

In other news, I see the Catalan politicians have "SNP disease", they belief that gaining a majority in the legislature means people wants independence.

[rory_20_uk]

Has any research ever tried to find benefits of FGM and any risks it might reduce? I don't think so.

Motrality and morbidity, you say? Make some circumcisions under the sanitary conditions similar to those under which FGM is often made and we may not notice the difference.

Like I said - add some black PR to circumcision - or run a campaign against it in major media - and you will not know the idea in a couple of years.

Oh dear - a simple Google search would have sufficed... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002072920000237X

Note the article is regarding childbirth - so this assumes that it took place in a lovely sanitary conditions and there were no complications.

So... nothing to do whatsoever with PR and to do with hard, scientific fact. I've no idea why you continue to think the two are in any way similar.

~:smoking:

[rory_20_uk]

In other news, I see the Catalan politicians have "SNP disease", they belief that gaining a majority in the legislature means people wants independence.

But unlike Scotland, they'd be in a better financial position than Spain generally - Scotland requires oil to be at $100+ for some time to come unless they find sudden sources of revenue post-independence.

~:smoking:

[Gilrandir]

Oh dear - a simple Google search would have sufficed... http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002072920000237X

Note the article is regarding childbirth - so this assumes that it took place in a lovely sanitary conditions and there were no complications.

All I could read from the linked source was an abstract. Communication at this forum has taught me not to be overtrustful, especially if
1) no figures confirmed by any research are provided;
2) the report comes from a culturally alien and therefore biased source.
Moreover, I didn't claim FGM was good. My claim was that it is bad, as well as circumcision. You haven't provided any sources concerning the latter.What if I do, like this:
https://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/health/your-health/circumcision-may-cause-erectile-dysfunction
Montmorency: so many thick people are around, huh?



So... nothing to do whatsoever with PR and to do with hard, scientific fact. I've no idea why you continue to think the two are in any way similar.

I gave another scientific fact. Get some spindoctors to work on it and we'll see in a couple of years.

As to similarities, twice now have I given my reasons why I believe so. No one has refuted any of them. In fact, my opponents didn't dispute a single point I offered; all their arguments boiled down to "Oh, come on! The first mutilation is a savage habit of uncouth infidels/pagans, the second mutilation is a salubrious procedure hallowed by its belonging to [which is widely understood as] our culture." If you go beyond blunt rejection, I will consider the reasons forwarded. If you keep rolling like you did, well, carry on. Calling the dissidents "thick" is certainly the best way to prove your point.

Perhaps anyone would second amputating the appendix soon after a baby is born - it will prevent him from getting appendicitis later and who needs that blindgut anyway? People do perfectly well without it. Or glands - no dratted quinsy in future? About ten years ago my Mum had her gall bladder removed. And she is doing fine, considering. Let's cut it out at the age of three, say. Prevents some nasty cholecystitis in years to come. Angelina Jolie was right after all - chop off those boobs - they are a vague menace even now, who knows one day they may cause some trouble.

[Montmorency]

As to
similarities, twice now have I given my reasons why I believe so. No one has refuted any of them. In fact, my opponents didn't dispute a single point I offered; all their arguments boiled down to "Oh, come on! The first mutilation is a savage habit of uncouth infidels/pagans, the second mutilation is a salubrious procedure hallowed by its belonging to [which is widely understood as] our culture." If you go beyond blunt rejection, I will consider the reasons forwarded. If you keep rolling like you did, well, carry on. Calling the dissidents "thick" is certainly the best way to prove your point.

Gee, maybe try actually reading the posts that refute your premises?

[Beskar]

Err, no.

That was a decade ago - these days I live within a mile of Idaho.

It was a pun reference to the books and your rural upbringing, due to your previous post. The different people being the sheep, pigs, dogs, etc as depicted representing the different groups of 'people'.

[Greyblades]

Not to go on all-Fours; that is the Law. Are we not Men?

Wait, wrong talking animall book.

I keep thinking I should get back to reading, i havent yet gotten to hg wells and I still haven't finished 1984, though I haven't exactly missed out on the ludicrous amount of spoilers ive been exposed to over the years.

[Idaho]

Err, no.

That was a decade ago - these days I live within a mile of Idaho.
We ought to meet for a pint one day. I'm sure you can't be as bad in real life.

[Beskar]

We ought to meet for a pint one day. I'm sure you can't be as bad in real life.

I believe Greyblades and myself would probably be too far distance away, east and north respectively. Damn, South-Westerners!

[Greyblades]

¿Que?