with Ashigaru against Monks

[Elias]

maby a newbie-question (but i´am a newbie):

how can i fight, and win, with my ashigaru- and few archer-units against monks?
i know, better i don´t try it, but with the oda-clan i have in the start-period an ashigaru-bonus and two ronin-terretories with monks in my heart.
if i try to fight them with my bigger army, my yari ashigarus will run home very early and it´s not possible for my, to get this provinces in the first 5 years.

Elias

[theforce]

No way!
The ashis will run like hell. You can try and fire with all your archers on the monks and you will kill many. Try having the ashis block the monks in hold fornation and hold-ground and get the archers in normal or wedge formation to flank the monks... it might work!

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

oh not the Oda again...

force, what do you mean NO WAY ? you should know better http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

anywhoo, Oda is easy, we've been through this so many times... you can take those 2 ronin provinces in the FIRST year no problem

now if you excuse me i'm trying to sleep off a headache, just walked by, but i'm sure someone can finish it for me... else i'll get back later

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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[Warmaker]

Don't even try it early on playing as Oda. The only way to beat them with Ashigeru is to outnumber an individual WM unit with 2-3 Ashigeru units. In addition forcing it to fight uphill. Then MAYBE you can beat that unit. But this is impossible since each of those provinces have multiple WMs and Archers. Do not even think of engaging them in close combat early in the campaign. Isolate them with a small garrison in the surrounding provinces. 1 unit is enough since they're not expansion minded for about 10 years or so. Expand in other directions, preferrably East. I suggest taking Mikawa right away before it is strongly reinforced. It's a river crossing battle so it gets tougher later on. Imagawa will eventually reinforce it HEAVILY, so attack it with a meager detachment and lead it with your daimyo. This will take some smart tactics.

Here's a way to wear down those ronin provinces with their WMs. I stumbled upon this out of boredom and I warn you that it will seem "Gamey"... You're sure to have a few extra archer units in your interior provinces. Save one or two of them for "raids" into the ronin Ise and Yamashiro provinces. I started with Ise and sent one detachment of archers. Immediately at the start of the battle, I marched to the right and stood atop a hill assuming the usual closed ranks formation, 2-man deep. Since I was so badly outnumbered the computer arrogantly sends his men to take out my single archer unit. I never intended to win this battle so I let the enemy come after me. From a higher elevation my archers have extended range and their fire becomes more deadly so I inflict more than usual casualties. I usually target WMs but eventually wear down their own archers since you'll take casualties from their return fire and will slowly wear yours down. Forcing the WMs to march uphill tires them and slows them. This gives you more time to plink away at them and get more bonus casualties. Once they start to get close to the top, rout your men and run home. It sounds shameful and will result in the many suicides of these generals who repeatedly fail in these routs. The rewards is slowly wearing down these ronin and eventually mounting your own attack. I had to use my daimyo in these last attacks since you don't have access to "power units" like No-Dachi and cavalry early in the game. You'll rely on ashigeru, and archers in these finishing attacks also. Doing this minimizes the amount of resources wasted in taking Ise and Yamashiro so you can send more troops to claim Mikawa or other targets of opportunity. Just be ready to put some Koku in to replenish those archers but this shouldn't happen often.

One more thing with this dirty trick is to make sure your archer unit is SMALLER IN NUMBER of men than the enemy so the AI will come to YOU. The other key is to be on very high terrain to maximize your firepower and slowing down the enemy's approach. The last related key is to find this high terrain close to the border so you don't have far to run home to. Those Warrior Monks can run pretty fast when they're pissed off, but not as fast as my cowering archers!

P.S.-Jaydee, if you can provide some miraculous way to take those provinces in the first year I'd be quite happy... You'd save me a big headache for the next campaign.

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 07-30-2001).]

[radan]

Warmaker...have you been reading the stories of Maltz? If not I suggest your read them because I myself have conquered the two ronin provinces in the FIRST YEAR using his strategy. Also you can look for the thread on Totalwar.com forum where Jaydee posted a quite descriptive way of doing it the first year and believe me it works. The tip is to use your DAIMYO honour bonus and the fact that computers don't attack during the first turn.

[Maltz]

Thx for the ads, radan http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Yes it is winnable! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif You might want to assign something else than ashigaru to stop the monks head-on, while all the ashigaru are pretty fast flanking units.

Once the monks are running away don't forget to chase it using one or two groups of ashigaru. Or they will rally even if with only 5 men left.

[EuroSan]

Monks also dont like the Arrows from an Archer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif(shoot them to death)


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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[Elias]

to fight the monks by leading with the daimyo is very risky i think. in the first years he has no heir.

to whait about 10 years before fighting the ronin provinces maby it´s the better way for me.

the problem is: i need a lot of units at the first time. in every provinc a garrison, big armys to watch for the imagawa and the uesegi and after three years, mori starts a ovensive against me.

lot of trouble for a poor daimyo like me.

i´ve read in the STW Strategies the clan-tipps for the oda-clan.
it´s the best way, to keep Mikawa first (because i will have trouble with mori in a few years) and build two keeps -> spear-dojos in two provinces and a CASTLE -> TEMPLE in Owari, to build monks there?
or is there a alternative strategie?

Elias

[Maltz]

Not dangerous if you attack Ise in the very first season, Elias. If you lose, just start over http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

I guess the chance of winning this 1530 Spring Ise battle in expert is about 40%. Sometimes the enemy taisho hides himself in the woods on the right - a perfect target. But watch out for more on the plateau which is not usually visible. Once you killed the taisho the nearby enemy will rout.

[Elias]

not so risky in 1530, that´s true!
i will try it.
but for visiting the tenno, i need a little time more, i think.

Elias

[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 07-30-2001).]

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Elias, one of our Better members here (Don't remember who) has given us a complete "walk through" when using Oda clan in the beginning of the SP campaign (especially how to take the provinces with wm in it).

I still have it on paper but i can scan it and E-Mail to you if you want it.

My E-Mail adress: loup13@videotron.ca

[This message has been edited by KumaRatta Yamamoto (edited 07-30-2001).]

[Vanya]

Ah! The 'west coast offense'! That is: tip-toe around the big boys and jab them with soft, little sword pokes and slices. Must dance a lot to evade the sumo warriors of Buddha... need lots of little slices...

[Sengoku]

In my experience, monks can absolutely harvest ashigaru, so using any fewer than about 5 units is pointless. Another good technique (if it works) could be to hit the monks in a rear attack, as they will gain a +12 attack bonus. Try to use all the archers arrows (force fire), and then use them as a container while the ashigaru manouvre(?) around the back. Problem is, the ashigaru will have to be high honour or they will rout just for having the monks on their flank.

[Kiwi]

Hi,
I was of the same opinion on Ashigaru versus Monks until I read Maltz's little story and JayDee's(sorry on the names) strategy. I tried attacking the Monks and within 3 turns had both of the Monk provinces. It is easy but I must admit my losses the first couple of times were a lot higher than the other guys. I remember he said kill 220(?) and lose 60(?). My losses were double that to start. But as long as you are careful on not attacking the monks front on you should be fine. Pray for good weather.

A..

[radan]

From my campaign experiences with Oda, the monks in ISE (especially the TAISHO) sometimes deploys alone in the RIGHT forest so I concentrate my arrows on it. Never encountered the enemy there group together (is it because the AI loves the forest and must put units in more than one?).

Maltz is right in saying that you could always restart your campaign if you lose (e.g unfavorable weather)since it is still the very first TURN! Me, I also have higher losses than 60 since I'm not that good.

EDIT: By the way, I notice that Kuma's thread is his 500th and he's now a Tai-sa. What a very productive way of reaching 500 if I may say so. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by radan (edited 07-31-2001).]

uh oh, seems nobody felt like finishing it after all... so here's a link:
how to beat ronins as Oda in first year (http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm1.showMessage?topicID=2571.topic)
sorry i'm too lazy to rewrite it again, so just ignore the parts where i was getting back at that freak http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[This message has been edited by JayDee Daidoji (edited 07-31-2001).]

[radan]

Quote Originally posted by JayDee Daidoji:
uh oh, seems nobody felt like finishing it after all... so here's a link:
how to beat ronins as Oda in first year (http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm1.showMessage?topicID=2571.topic)
sorry i'm too lazy to rewrite it again, so just ignore the parts where i was getting back at that freak http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
[/QUOTE]

Hehe.., I was hoping he'll keep his word and give you the Warlords Edition pronto. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

But I was wondering if the game developers really made a mistake of not adding more troops on the two provinces (if their purpose is to balance out the game)Maybe they figured the Ashis could not beat the monks.

hey the game is not out yet so he still has a chance to keep his word... if not, i'll haunt him for the rest of his life http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[Koga No Goshi]

To be honest, I haven't had much of a problem taking the rebel-held states in the Oda Empire using only Ashis and archers, though I admit I haven't tried it on Expert difficulty yet. Just make sure you outnumber them. Focus on one state at a time. Use your archers in front, weaken up the monks. Usually the AI is stupid and sends only one or two of the monks at you at a time. Have one ashi take each monk from the front while the rest move to flank and attack the rear. You take heavy losses but since it's ashigaru, it's well worth it. Just be quick about it. If you leave the one ashigaru unit facing the monk unit face to face on its own for too long before the flanking units move in, it will rout and cause the surrounding units to rout with it. Speed is key.



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Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.

[Cruelintentions]

if it's the ronins in the heart of her land ur worried about then don't worry
the land called yarm...something
has a dudu that always commits it self to ur clan
and if the other ronin army is in a castle don't worry they don't come out unless u attack them
wait until ur army is good enough then fight them

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Cruel Intentions only has one thing in his mind

[Elias]

this is the way i´ve done yet.

i did not fight the ronins early and also i did´nt catch mikazawa, because lord imagawa saved his province very quick.

i took echizen, the ronin province in the northeast of the oda-terretorium and after two years i´ve had a little fight with mori.
but i´ve sended early in the game most of my troops in the northwestern corner and the outcome was: i catch tajima and harima.
after that, i took this little island (i forget the name right now, Ajima, or something like this).
now, 1536, i can use my first monks and won ise easily.
next time i will visit the tenno.

after six years, all clans are allive. imagawa is poor (only two provinces left), but it covers me about takeda and hojo.
imagawa and takeda lost their western provinces, so i hope shimazu and mori will fight eachother. uesugi is in trouble with hojo and not very dangerous yet.
in moment, i feel very comfortable in this situation.

a carefull but for the first steps also working way, i think.

Elias

[Jackson]

Here's the Sword Dojo thread:
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000697.html

I can take out both Ronin provinces within six seasons. Maybe less now, since I have another two and a half months of playing under my belt.