Terror Attack: 130 Dead in Paris

[Papewaio]

Another shoot out, grenade attack and reports of hostages.
18+ dead

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-14/gunman-opens-fire-in-paris-bar-french-media-reports/6940722

[Strike For The South]

And we were so close to getting that Steve jobs

[Hooahguy]

According to the AP its now 26 dead, and the military is now deployed in Paris, this looks like a major terrorist attack.

Hopefully the death toll will not go higher.

[Papewaio]

And we were so close to getting that Steve jobs

Arafat was an engineer. Genius/high intelligence doesn't equal good outcomes. It is still dependent on home life. My point was that genes aren't as important as social raising.

[a completely inoffensive name]

And there is only one thing that has nothing to do with this.

[rvg]

Wake up, Europe.

[Beskar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203

At least 40 people have been killed in multiple shootings in the French capital, Paris, and explosions near the Stade de France.
French media say at least 15 people have been killed near the Bataclan arts centre, where up to 60 people are reportedly being held hostage.
Some spectators fled the venue after police stormed it. Reports suggested gunmen shot many there.
President Francois Hollande has declared a state of emergency.
He has ordered all France's borders closed.
Paris authorities have asked people to stay indoors.
Three explosions were reported outside a bar near the Stade de France.
Elsewhere, at least one man opened fire at a restaurant in the 11th district of the city, causing several several casualties.
A BBC journalist at the Petit Cambodge restaurant said he could see 10 people lying on the road, either dead or seriously injured.
Police have now arrived and sealed off the area.


Seems to be unfolding still at the moment.

[Brenus]

That is bad... So, perhaps we can join with the Russians now...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Move the recent comments from the last Paris attack thread in here.

EDIT: thanks

[Strike For The South]

But the kebab shops are worth it.

[Viking]

That is bad... So, perhaps we can join with the Russians now...

Most likely, these where not Syrian citizens, but French. I don't think the jets will have to travel far..

[Brenus]

True. The real target should be the Wahabists Saudis and Qatar, but, hey, we are selling them Rafales...

[Papewaio]

Want to neuter terrorists finance get rid of oil.

[Strike For The South]

Want to neuter terrorists finance get rid of oil.

Small arms and grenades do not require a massive financial backing. The ability to plan logistics with twitter and burner cell phones does not require some sympathetic oil sheikh with cash to burn.

France lost this war when the sons and grandsons of immigrants were ostracized from society. This chapter has already been written.

[Papewaio]

Oil pays for the root cause which is the extremist wahabist madras

[Strike For The South]

Oil pays for the root cause which is the extremist wahabist madras
I'm going to assume you know the story of Pandoras box? In any event, these attacks are so far removed from suadi whabbis. To talk about it smacks of moving the goal posts.

[Papewaio]

Not just the schools or the funding but the leverage fundamentalist areas have because they don't need to learn just pump out oil.

I bet that the most Christian fundamentalists areas in the U.S. on average have more oil fields and minerals then the less fundamentalist ones. Even within a state that's probably true too.

Oil allows fundamentalism to grow because their is no need for STEM to create an open idea knowledge based economy that runs counter to close minded fundamentalists of whatever flavour is local.

The box is open, it's burning, time to think our ways out of the problems.

So we could make like the Romans and crush them, we could remove their financial clout, we could better integrate those that come to our societies, we could stop allying with the ones funding the majority of the terrorists. I'm sure there is more we can do that won't just target the enemies of the nation foremost in funding this problem.

[Greyblades]

Not just the schools or the funding but the leverage fundamentalist areas have because they don't need to learn just pump out oil.
What is engineering no longer counted as a STEM field?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not just the schools or the funding but the leverage fundamentalist areas have because they don't need to learn just pump out oil.

I bet that the most Christian fundamentalists areas in the U.S. on average have more oil fields and minerals then the less fundamentalist ones. Even within a state that's probably true too.

Oil allows fundamentalism to grow because their is no need for STEM to create an open idea knowledge based economy that runs counter to close minded fundamentalists of whatever flavour is local.

The box is open, it's burning, time to think our ways out of the problems.

So we could make like the Romans and crush them, we could remove their financial clout, we could better integrate those that come to our societies, we could stop allying with the ones funding the majority of the terrorists. I'm sure there is more we can do that won't just target the enemies of the nation foremost in funding this problem.

You were so close, and then you had to bring STEM into it.

STEM has nothing to do with fundamentalism at all - many of the European born terrorists are intelligent and well educated with backgrounds in medicine and IT.

It's all well and good to blame the Saudis but seeds only grow in fertile soil - you have to accept that there was and is an underlying current of hostility that just doesn't approve of the way we do things in the West and has no problem slaughtering Westeners for God.

These Muslims (not all Muslims) see us as sub-human, which is clear in the way they kill us indiscriminately man woman and child.

Slaughter under "justified" circumstances is built into the bedrock of Islam, just look at that argument I just finished with Hit - when it came down to it he felt it behove him to justify the genocide carried out by his Muslim forefathers. You can't excise that from the religion because it's there right at the beginning - sometimes you just have to kill the Unbelievers to protect the Faithful.

Anyway, what's happening in Paris is both horrific and mind boggling - if this turns out to have been carried out by Syrian or Afghan nationals then I forecast reprisal killings and you can expect the entire tone of the refugee crisis to change regardless of the origin of the terrorists.

[Hooahguy]

I'm predicting that the anti-immigration parties will be winning more often than not in the coming election cycles. Just look at Poland.

Edit: something very interesting I came across, from a decade ago: http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-future-of-terrorism-what-al-qaida-really-wants-a-369448.html

[Strike For The South]

Not just the schools or the funding but the leverage fundamentalist areas have because they don't need to learn just pump out oil.

I bet that the most Christian fundamentalists areas in the U.S. on average have more oil fields and minerals then the less fundamentalist ones. Even within a state that's probably true too.

The exact opposite is true. Oilmen in the US are known for being the antithesis of any sort of zealotry. Next time it would be easier just to insult Texas rather than have a paragraph to nowhere.


Oil allows fundamentalism to grow because their is no need for STEM to create an open idea knowledge based economy that runs counter to close minded fundamentalists of whatever flavour is local.


I don't really know what to say to this other than you are making science a religion in itself. By your own admission these men are quite apt at gaining STEM degrees. I would argue that STEM rewards the rigid thinking that most fundamentalists follow. Although, I don't ascribe any special qualities to STEM as a whole.


The box is open, it's burning, time to think our ways out of the problems.
Crush the myth of multiculturalism. Follow an assimilation model or severely limit the number of immigrants taken in.


So we could make like the Romans and crush them, we could remove their financial clout, we could better integrate those that come to our societies, we could stop allying with the ones funding the majority of the terrorists. I'm sure there is more we can do that won't just target the enemies of the nation foremost in funding this problem.

The whabbis have spoken and the madrasas have been built. We can't put the genie back in the bottle. Its also rather myopic to think the whabbis have more influence than any other kind Islamist.

[Papewaio]

What is engineering no longer counted as a STEM field?

Most of those engineers are ex pats or go overseas to get their training. Either way they are a social minority and not the norm.

[rvg]

I'm predicting that the anti-immigration parties will be winning more often than not in the coming election cycles. Just look at Poland.

Edit: something very interesting I came across, from a decade ago: http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-future-of-terrorism-what-al-qaida-really-wants-a-369448.html

Remove kebab before kebab removes you.

[Fragony]

looks really bad

[Don Corleone]

No politics or 2nd guessing on this one for me tonight fellas. Just an awful lot of sadness. Louis and the rest of my French friends, my heart bleeds for you tonight. Be safe. God bless you and hold you close. You are in my prayers.

[Fragony]

Seems to have been really well organised, they must have been preparing this for months. I'll also refrain from comment at the moment this is really horrible.

[wooly_mammoth]

It's been less than an year since the Charlie Hebdo shooting and indeed, this wasn't some random Ahmed suddenly feeling the urge to do the will of the Prophet, but a very well-organized attack. Looks like a proverbial case of incompetence on the side of the French intelligence.

[Husar]

So will Hollande step up his evil communist plan and invade the caliphate now?

[AE Bravo]

Its also rather myopic to think the whabbis have more influence than any other kind Islamist.
All Islamists are Wahhabis.

[Fragony]

So will Hollande step up his evil communist plan and invade the caliphate now?

If it was them they probably would have claimed it by now

[Crandar]

All Islamists are Wahhabis.
Not necessarily. Talibans, for example, are influenced by deobandism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi).

[Papewaio]

The exact opposite is true. Oilmen in the US are known for being the antithesis of any sort of zealotry. Next time it would be easier just to insult Texas rather than have a paragraph to nowhere.

Right because only Texas has oil. It is known as having a huge influence over school education books and that is normally noted as adding Creationist ideas to biological text. It is also known that Texas has some of the more easier juries for patent troll approval.

But it is also seen in Western Australia and Queensland which are mineral rich but more religious and paranoid about the other ie One Nation in Queensland vs Western Sydney.




I don't really know what to say to this other than you are making science a religion in itself. By your own admission these men are quite apt at gaining STEM degrees. I would argue that STEM rewards the rigid thinking that most fundamentalists follow. Although, I don't ascribe any special qualities to STEM as a whole.
Science is only one of the parts. Rigid thinking isn't part of science it is the antithesis of it. I'll leave absolute answers to those who need the security blanket of fairy tales.



Crush the myth of multiculturalism. Follow an assimilation model or severely limit the number of immigrants taken in.
That's what the extremists want on both sides. It doesn't help the moderates one bit.



The whabbis have spoken and the madrasas have been built. We can't put the genie back in the bottle. Its also rather myopic to think the whabbis have more influence than any other kind Islamist.
And cutting the funding is a much better to do now then wait for the next generation of mindless drones.

[Fragony]

It's kinda funny, people who used to be be upset of things I said are now much harsher than I ever was

Warning, not fun to watch http://www.powned.tv/nieuws/foto/2015/11/bataclantheater_stroomt_leeg.html

No death but total panic

[Pannonian]

Right because only Texas has oil. It is known as having a huge influence over school education books and that is normally noted as adding Creationist ideas to biological text. It is also known that Texas has some of the more easier juries for patent troll approval.

But it is also seen in Western Australia and Queensland which are mineral rich but more religious and paranoid about the other ie One Nation in Queensland vs Western Sydney.



Science is only one of the parts. Rigid thinking isn't part of science it is the antithesis of it. I'll leave absolute answers to those who need the security blanket of fairy tales.


That's what the extremists want on both sides. It doesn't help the moderates one bit.

Islamists operate on a different paradigm to us "westerners". There is no moderation where there is no common form of communication. The best we can do is control radicalisation. Stop anyone who's been to the radicalisation centres (countrywise) from returning. And restrict who can preach here. If that outrages our ingrained liberal values, so be it. Liberalism cannot function when a group antithetical to liberal understanding or even the roots of liberalism uses liberal loopholes to further their case. As I said a couple of years ago, the USSR was never the same kind of threat that Islamists are because, by and large, we communicated in the same cultural and diplomatic language. They were opponents, but they were never aliens in the same way that Islamists are. And unlike cultural aliens, who are simply different, Islamists seek to impose their state on us.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

All Islamists are Wahhabis.

"All Heretics are Protestants".

It must be nice to be able to completely divorce yourselves from the monsters who kill in your name.

The Reaction of Hollande has been a little worrying, English translations of his first speech include the word "merciless" with regards to France's reaction.

[Fragony]

The Reaction of Hollande has been a little worrying, English translations of his first speech include the word "merciless" with regards to France's reaction.

Not smart, with things like this you must keep your cools, perfectly harmless muslims could be subject of mob-rule.

[wooly_mammoth]

Someone should tell that delusional midget to shut the taff up. Somehow, he keeps threatening the terrorists with his righteous wrath and they keep catching him with his pants down.

[Fisherking]

Papewaio

I don’t guess you see the fallacy in you argument.

Oil is only a commodity. Your whole argument is off the mark.

The threat is an ideology. Financing source is immaterial.

The wealthy and powerful will always find others to do their bidding.

To destroy the funding source you eventually have to destroy the states which provide the power behind it.

[Fragony]

IS just claimed attack. What's worrying is that they according to witnesses were fluent in French. So from ALgeria or homegrown.

[Pannonian]

Papewaio

I don’t guess you see the fallacy in you argument.

Oil is only a commodity. Your whole argument is off the mark.

The threat is an ideology. Financing source is immaterial.

The wealthy and powerful will alway find others to do their bidding.

To destroy the funding source you eventually have to destroy the states which provide the power behind it.

Or prevent the radlicalisation centres like Pakistan and others from accepting oil money to fund their training camps. Which we have no right to do so as they're sovereign countries. The best we can do whilst minimising the amount of change we have to make is probably the control scenario I described above. It still infringes on existing liberties, but it does so for people who are going to known dodgy countries, and it allows existing Muslims the option of either staying with their western countries, or follow their Islamic identity abroad.

[Idaho]

The price of our middle east wars will be these relatively small flowering of violence. It's a tragedy, an outrage and a crime. It's also just a tiny sample of what has been happening in Afghanistan,Iraq and Syria. All those refugees are running from atrocities like this that have destroyed their homes and communities.

Out governments didn't create these groups. They didn't write their ideologies. But they prepared the ground. They fed the soil. And they paid and maintained the systems that brought them into being.

What's my point? That the tough talk, violence and oppression that will be enacted because of this terrible attack will not help.

[Fisherking]

Or prevent the radlicalisation centres like Pakistan and others from accepting oil money to fund their training camps. Which we have no right to do so as they're sovereign countries. The best we can do whilst minimising the amount of change we have to make is probably the control scenario I described above. It still infringes on existing liberties, but it does so for people who are going to known dodgy countries, and it allows existing Muslims the option of either staying with their western countries, or follow their Islamic identity abroad.

I haven’t the time ATM to show where your earlier idea is wrong. Maybe later. RL calls.

[Pannonian]

The price of our middle east wars will be these relatively small flowering of violence. It's a tragedy, an outrage and a crime. It's also just a tiny sample of what has been happening in Afghanistan,Iraq and Syria. All those refugees are running from atrocities like this that have destroyed their homes and communities.

Out governments didn't create these groups. They didn't write their ideologies. But they prepared the ground. They fed the soil. And they paid and maintained the systems that brought them into being.

What's my point? That the tough talk, violence and oppression that will be enacted because of this terrible attack will not help.

I wish we don't do any kind of talk at all. No talk of imposing democracy and freedom or other outside concepts in places where we're not welcome. No admission of Syrians or other Muslim outsides either. They can have their world. We can have ours. Whatever happens in their world will have nothing to do with us, whether for better or for worse.

[Idaho]

The point is that you can't impose democracy. Democracy is the will of the people. You have to ACCEPT democracy.

When the gazans elect hamas we have to accept democracy and work with it. In Iran we defended a dictator against the democratic will and when that will exploded we were left with the mess that is modern Iran. In Saudi we did the same and created a state that exported radical politicised islam. Etc. It's all so tedious and repetitive.

[Pannonian]

The point is that you can't impose democracy. Democracy is the will of the people. You have to ACCEPT democracy.

When the gazans elect hamas we have to accept democracy and work with it. In Iran we defended a dictator against the democratic will and when that will exploded we were left with the mess that is modern Iran. In Saudi we did the same and created a state that exported radical politicised islam. Etc. It's all so tedious and repetitive.

So let us stop here. Rather tan agonise over what we've done in the past, which we can't do squat to correct, as our every action is considered wrong in some way or other, we should just raise our borders to the Muslim world, which is where most of the trouble comes from. What they do in their world is their business, and none of ours. If anyone then chooses to become part of that world, let them; just don't allow them back. I was raised a liberal, and in most respects I remain one, and I opposed the attack on Iraq. But I'm tired of (far right) Muslims taking offence at our every action, and bleeding heart liberals telling me to be guilty about things I had nothing to do with. I enjoy the many cultures that London contains, and I wouldn't want to homogenise it. But there are some positions that are antithetical to the liberal world that I love. Islamism is one.

[Fragony]

The point is that you can't impose democracy. Democracy is the will of the people. You have to ACCEPT democracy.

When the gazans elect hamas we have to accept democracy and work with it. In Iran we defended a dictator against the democratic will and when that will exploded we were left with the mess that is modern Iran. In Saudi we did the same and created a state that exported radical politicised islam. Etc. It's all so tedious and repetitive.

Are you going to respect the will of parties that strongly disagree with immigration? Not directed at you but the (radical) left has their 'ground-troops' so to say. Islamism wouldn't be a problem in the west without multiculturalists.

[Kagemusha]

Apparently one of the attackers had a Syrian passport. Like i have been saying from the start in the Isis thread. We cant defend from terrorists who hate everything we are and they are poised to succeed with their attacks every once a while.

Only way to deal with these nazis of Islamic world is to deploy at Syria and Iraq and either bring to justice or kill every last one of these lunatics. More we wait harder it will become.

[Brenus]

"France lost this war when the sons and grandsons of immigrants were ostracized from society. This chapter has already been written.":laugh4:
Minister of Justice: Rachida Dhati: Typical ostracized immigrants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachida_Dati
Rama Ayad: Another one oppressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama_Yade
Najat Vallaud-Belkacem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najat_Vallaud-Belkacem

My dear, if the Islamist attack France it is because France represents all what they hate. France embraces life when they embrace death, France values liberty, they value slavery, France values equality, they value discrimination, France values Fraternity, they value racism.
France embraces science, secularism, they prefer superstition and obscurantism.
To summary it, let give me the message from a caricaturist Joann SFAR:
"Friends from the whole World, thanks you for your #pray for Paris, but we don't need more Religion! Our faith goes to music! Kisses! Life! Champagne! Joy! Paris is about life".

They value death, so they attack life

[Fragony]

Apparently one of the attackers had a Syrian passport. Like i have been saying from the start in the Isis thread. We cant defend from terrorists who hate everything we are and they are poised to succeed with their attacks every once a while.

Only way to deal with these nazis of Islamic world is to deploy at Syria and Iraq and either bring to justice or kill every last one of these lunatics. More we wait harder it will become.

Syrian pasport means nothing, 500 a pop for a Syrian pasport in Turkey, 600 for an AK in Brussels.

[Kagemusha]

Syrian pasport means nothing, 500 a pop for a Syrian pasport in Turkey, 600 for an AK in Brussels.

Yes and what does it matter if you can get one cheap? Are you claiming this is some sort of conspiracy to frame IS?

[Fragony]

Yes and what does it matter if you can get one cheap? Are you claiming this is some sort of conspiracy to frame IS?

No Turkish maffia just jumped in, Forged Syrian pasports is big business there, nobody has any idea who's who here. Mutti Theresa invited them and that's really all I want to say right now. My thoughts are at the misery of those who had to see all this right now

[Strike For The South]

All Islamists are Wahhabis.

Bullshit. Once again, you add nothing of value to the discussion.


Right because only Texas has oil. It is known as having a huge influence over school education books and that is normally noted as adding Creationist ideas to biological text. It is also known that Texas has some of the more easier juries for patent troll approval.

I don't disagree with any of that but that evangelical streak is found mostly among the poor and has its roots in British immigration that made its way west across the old south and eventually settled in East Texas. The Germans in Central Texas and The Mexicans in South Texas have always found east Texans to be a strange breed.

An oilmans religion is capitalism. The megachurches make their money mostly off of poor whites and recent minority converts, it is one of the reasons why they are pushing Spanish services so hard. The presence of evangelical Christianity and mineral resources does not necessarily go hand in hand.


But it is also seen in Western Australia and Queensland which are mineral rich but more religious and paranoid about the other ie One Nation in Queensland vs Western Sydney.

I find Australian accents grating. #TeamDingo.


Science is only one of the parts. Rigid thinking isn't part of science it is the antithesis of it

Science is very analytical and very rigid relative to other subjects. If this then that easily resonates with a rigid thinker. Once again most terrorists have turned out to be highly educated in STEM fields.


I'll leave absolute answers to those who need the security blanket of fairy tales.
I could do without the 18 year edgy teenager skipping mass


And cutting the funding is a much better to do now then wait for the next generation of mindless drones.
Cutting the funding won't step any of this. It's a contagion and it's already spread.

[Idaho]

So let us stop here. Rather tan agonise over what we've done in the past, which we can't do squat to correct, as our every action is considered wrong in some way or other, we should just raise our borders to the Muslim world, which is where most of the trouble comes from. What they do in their world is their business, and none of ours. If anyone then chooses to become part of that world, let them; just don't allow them back. I was raised a liberal, and in most respects I remain one, and I opposed the attack on Iraq. But I'm tired of (far right) Muslims taking offence at our every action, and bleeding heart liberals telling me to be guilty about things I had nothing to do with. I enjoy the many cultures that London contains, and I wouldn't want to homogenise it. But there are some positions that are antithetical to the liberal world that I love. Islamism is one.

All I see here is emotional response. Why do you give a crap what right wing Muslims get offended by? And who is asking you to feel guilty?

Look at the situation rationally. What are it's causes? Then start to work out what needs to be done. The same knee jerk responses are coming out from the same mouths. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again while expecting different results.

[Pannonian]

All I see here is emotional response. Why do you give a crap what right wing Muslims get offended by? And who is asking you to feel guilty?

Look at the situation rationally. What are it's causes? Then start to work out what needs to be done. The same knee jerk responses are coming out from the same mouths. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again while expecting different results.

The causes are radicalised Muslims, often homegrown, but usually passing through radicalisation centres in Pakistan or other places abroad. Once they get to this stage, there is no re-assimilation possible. So cut the trouble at the stage where they get to be radicalised abroad, and cut the sources of radicalisation at home by restricting what can be preached here, mainly by restricting who can preach here.

As for why I should give a crap what right wing Muslims get offended by, it's because it's the trigger by which already radicalised Muslims find the excuse to perform or plan their latest atrocity. There is no rhyme and reason to cutting the sources of offence for such, because it's already got to the stage where they're looking for an excuse, any excuse, to perform their act. Bleeding heart liberals point to what we do or don't do abroad as why we should feel guilty about provoking such actions, but there is no escaping the route down which these idiots have already decided to go. Whatever we do or don't do, is pointed to as evidence of our guilt, both by these radicalised Muslims (and their allies abroad), and the bleeding heart liberals at home. As such, these arguments are practically irrelevant. They do nothing to stop these acts. The only way to stop them is to stop the radicalisation process in the first place, or to keep their adherents from coming here.

[Idaho]

Do you suppose that it is realistically possible to conduct a widespread war across a large area of the globe, while keeping your own local corner of the world free from any war like events?

[Pannonian]

Do you suppose that it is realistically possible to conduct a widespread war across a large area of the globe, while keeping your own local corner of the world free from any war like events?

I'd prefer us not to conduct any war at all. I was against the Iraq war, as I stated above. I was against intervention in Syria. I am against intervention in Ukraine. And everywhere else where people are appealing to our sense of "right". The Iraqis, Syrians, and everyone else can do as they like in their patch of the world; I care not. And in return, I wish that they would not trouble us with their issues; I care not. Do something, as in Iraq, and the west is criticised for doing something. Do nothing, as in Syria, and the west is criticised for doing nothing. I favour doing nothing, and blocking their nationals from entering our land, as at least that would be cheaper and would get the same result of them hating us.

[Idaho]

I think you're being emotional and resorting to absolutes.

You are seeing everything in terms of us and them. Neither of which are remotely simple and cohesive groups. The majority of "them" have no interest whatsoever in "us". They get on with their lives.

Warzones generate these groups. Mujahaddin were generated by the Russian afghan war. Taleban by the subsequent civil war. AQ from a mix of the two plus Saudi political oppression. Mahdi army and IS by the Iraq war. Now the Syrian war creates and proliferated more.

Guns, training, propaganda, grievance. Those are the soil and growing conditions for terror attacks. The simplest way to generate all is to create Warzones.

[Husar]

Is it really any surprise that they are targeting Paris?
They blew up a plane with 224 Russians and people asked "Will Putin become more barbarian now?"
Now they killed 150 people in Paris and all of Facebook is changing profile pictures and crying "We are not affected at all".
If I were a terrorist, I'd plan my next attack in Paris to see all the people I hate cry...

[Montmorency]

Guns, training, propaganda, grievance. Those are the soil and growing conditions for terror attacks. The simplest way to generate all is to create Warzones.

The irony, and the core of the problem, is that the West does not have a monopoly on war.

Strike is correct to call Islamism a "contagion". At this point there is nothing we can do other than to let the violence run its course.

The point is that you can't impose peace. Peace is the will of the people. You have to ACCEPT peace.

[Montmorency]

Is it really any surprise that they are targeting Paris?
They blew up a plane with 224 Russians and people asked "Will Putin become more barbarian now?"
Now they killed 150 people in Paris and all of Facebook is changing profile pictures and crying "We are not affected at all".
If I were a terrorist, I'd plan my next attack in Paris to see all the people I hate cry...

They should target Berlin so that Merkel can use the incident to take on certain emergency powers... :clown:

[Pannonian]

I think you're being emotional and resorting to absolutes.

You are seeing everything in terms of us and them. Neither of which are remotely simple and cohesive groups. The majority of "them" have no interest whatsoever in "us". They get on with their lives.

Warzones generate these groups. Mujahaddin were generated by the Russian afghan war. Taleban by the subsequent civil war. AQ from a mix of the two plus Saudi political oppression. Mahdi army and IS by the Iraq war. Now the Syrian war creates and proliferated more.

Guns, training, propaganda, grievance. Those are the soil and growing conditions for terror attacks. The simplest way to generate all is to create Warzones.

We've had multiple homegrown groups who've not been involved in any war, but who began radicalisation with extremist preachers here, before completing their extremist education in Pakistan and other radicalisation centres. Some of them gravitate to warzones. Others seek to create a warzone here. Their supposed grievances include things where we did something, and sometimes they include things where we didn't do anything. These grievances are merely the excuse for what they do. What they aim to do is create a headline. They get their desire to create a headline from their radicalisation. If we try to address one grievance, they merely point to the reverse as what we should have done instead, or point to something else as justification for what they do. They're just excuses. Radicalisation is the reason.

[Kagemusha]

The irony, and the core of the problem, is that the West does not have a monopoly on war.

Strike is correct to call Islamism a "contagion". At this point there is nothing we can do other than to let the violence run its course.

The point is that you can't impose peace. Peace is the will of the people. You have to ACCEPT peace.

Let the violence run its course? Isis are saying that they want to decapitate Obama at the white house, besides using pre puberty girls as sex slaves, burning people alive as witches, chopping off hands for use of cellphones and using ten year old child soldiers as executioners in the videos and you think that they are like ill behaving children whom be nice once again after they have had their fun?

[Husar]

So what's next? The "Endlösung of the Islamfrage"?
Why do we need a solution to this? Around 1k people get shot in the US every year and no one needs a solution.
Some people are crazy, nothing we can do...

[a completely inoffensive name]

We should have never allowed the secular tyrants to be overthrown. I understand the wisdom of it all now.

[Graphic]

So what's next? The "Endlösung of the Islamfrage"?
Why do we need a solution to this? Around 1k people get shot in the US every year and no one needs a solution.
Some people are crazy, nothing we can do...

Actually around 8 or 9k.

[Pannonian]

So what's next? The "Endlösung of the Islamfrage"?
Why do we need a solution to this? Around 1k people get shot in the US every year and no one needs a solution.
Some people are crazy, nothing we can do...

The US can do whatever it likes. This attack happened in the EU.

[Montmorency]

Let the violence run its course? Isis are saying that they want to decapitate Obama at the white house, besides using pre puberty girls as sex slaves, burning people alive as witches, chopping off hands for use of cellphones and using ten year old child soldiers as executioners in the videos and you think that they are like ill behaving children whom be nice once again after they have had their fun?

Don't take my words so lightly. The only way to stop killing is to give people their fill of death. After that, only then can we talk about structural or cultural reform.

I am speaking of a region-wide civil war in which millions would die.

Western countries would simply defend their own territories.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[AE Bravo]

Not necessarily. Talibans, for example, are influenced by deobandism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi).
They are all students of Abdul Wahhab, especially after the Soviet invasion of Afghan and OBL. Prince Turki himself had funded the schools and Taliban elders.

This brings great shame to Muslims.

Cutting the funding won't step any of this. It's a contagion and it's already spread.
IS claims responsibility. We all know who made IS. So piss off.

[Husar]

The US can do whatever it likes. This attack happened in the EU.

In France to be exact, you can't just have your EU when you want to be annoyed and want to leave it otherwise.
The rest of what you posted is coherent though, but not exactly practical or enforceable unless you want to create some kind of DDR border to keep the poor out.
And that still doesn't explain why people from the US tell us to "wake up" or why no one used a Russian or Turkish flag profile picture on Facebook. Is it just because Hollande is more sympathetic than Putin and Erdogan or just because it is closer to home? If deaths far away are more acceptable why do the same people have strong opinions about violence in Israel and Palestine?

[Kagemusha]

Don't take my words so lightly. The only way to stop killing is to give people their fill of death. After that, only then can we talk about structural or cultural reform.

I am speaking of a region-wide civil war in which millions would die.

Western countries would simply defend their own territories.

Without the backing of the West and East. IS will run over the middle East,North Africa and Arabian peninsula. You want to fight them at that point? They would probably slaughter quite many people in the process, but not reform. It is not as if the Slaughtering millions reformed Nazi Germany either. No it was determined countries who defeated them and forced them into submission.

Same will apply with the extreme islamists. We simply should grant them their wish and deliver them from this world. They are not going to reform.

[Papewaio]

K
Papewaio

I don’t guess you see the fallacy in you argument.

Oil is only a commodity. Your whole argument is off the mark.

The threat is an ideology. Financing source is immaterial.

The wealthy and powerful will always find others to do their bidding.

To destroy the funding source you eventually have to destroy the states which provide the power behind it.

As a rule of thumb the more oil in a country the more fundamentalist the region gets.

Compare Singapore vs Malaysia vs Indonesia. Singapore has no oil. It has had to create a smart work force to create wealth. It's neighbors on the other hand have used mineral and oil wealth. Malaysia is not where near as progressive as Singapore, despite Singapore once being part of Malaysia. Malaysia is far more dominated by religious sects as they give legitimacy to their government.

Compare Saudi Arabia vs Iraq vs Syria vs Turkey (North South line, more oil in the South more Fundies too). Turkey is a Muslim democracy, has the least oil. Syria has some but not a lot of oil and has a Secular dictator which by most ME levels wasn't that bad mind you that's comparing to Libya and Iraq. You get into Saudi Arabia and you have a kingdom that has two main things propping it up. The tribe in charge has massive oil reserves and the support of one of not the most fundamentalist sects in Islam.

[AE Bravo]

Compare Saudi Arabia vs Iraq vs Syria vs Turkey (North South line, more oil in the South more Fundies too)
It's also the foundations of the states. Turkish flag is the traditional crescent, while the Saudi flag is the sword below "No God But God" anachronism. Saudis have successfully characterized Islam as a violent struggle. The country was built by the events almost identical to what's going on in Europe and IS. Breaking shrines, executions, genocide, and conquest.

This is all a result of that revivalist movement that is now the Muslim identity.

[Pannonian]

In France to be exact, you can't just have your EU when you want to be annoyed and want to leave it otherwise.
The rest of what you posted is coherent though, but not exactly practical or enforceable unless you want to create some kind of DDR border to keep the poor out.
And that still doesn't explain why people from the US tell us to "wake up" or why no one used a Russian or Turkish flag profile picture on Facebook. Is it just because Hollande is more sympathetic than Putin and Erdogan or just because it is closer to home? If deaths far away are more acceptable why do the same people have strong opinions about violence in Israel and Palestine?

I'm a Europhile. Despite my banter, I see France as the next closest thing to Britain. The US may be kin, but France is closer in geography and in how we see the world.

[Graphic]

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/our_terrorism_double_standard_after_paris_lets_stop_blaming_muslims_and_take_a_hard_look_at_ourselve s/

[Montmorency]

They would probably slaughter quite many people in the process, but not reform. It is not as if the Slaughtering millions reformed Nazi Germany either. No it was determined countries who defeated them and forced them into submission.

That's what I said, yes. You don't seem to understand the thrust of my statement, which is not that IS should get free reign but that the various competing factions of the Middle East, Central Asia and North Africa should be allowed to fight it out until they get tired of the devastation.


Without the backing of the West and East. IS will run over the middle East,North Africa and Arabian peninsula. You want to fight them at that point?

You're confused over what IS actually is. IS is just one more faction in the Muslim civil war, and it serves as a center of gravity around which all the smaller factions can consolidate with or against.

But IS is not the extent of Sunni Islamism - that's much wider. IS is just one iteration of an Islamist anti-Western state-unit, and in the course of any fraternal conflict where an organization exists or what it calls itself is not as important as the fact that it instigates bloody fighting to further its ideology.

Here's an outline of what has happened so far:

A. Economic/ecological instability and cultural frictions reach high point.
B. Maximalist religious ideologies organize to gain control over peoples and territories.
C. Ethno-religious civil war ensues over an extended period of time.

However, what we have seen for the most part has been low-level fighting and endemic violence. Only decisive violence on a massive scale can bring about change-from-within. For example, look at the moderating effect the catastrophic Iran-Iraq war (the last real interstate war of our age) on the Iranian nation and government.

Going by my suggestion for minimal interference from the West, at some point this will go on until several primary antagonists coalesce, i.e. allied front of Salafism/Wahaabism vs. nation-states like Egypt, Tunisia, Israel, Iran, Turkey, Kazahkhstan, Azerbaijan vs. local tribal polities in much of Central Asia, Libya, Algeria, and the Arabian peninsula. The best possible scenario is that the unified Islamists in whatever form take control of an extensive, contiguous, land territory which they govern as a state. Bonus points if they take over Saudi Arabia and try to organize a combined-arms military. This is the best case because it causes maximal death and suffering for local populations - now bear with me - and because it is the stage in which the Islamists leave themselves most vulnerable for systematic and decisive destruction. By explicitly forming a sprawling state, or "caliphate", they neuter their grassroots advantages. Remember that it is straightforward for a state to destroy another state, while we have seen just how difficult it is for a state or states to combat amorphous transnational movements.

In this broad scenario, most peninsular states would be permitted to collapse, and a strong naval presence maintained in the Southern Mediterranean. Before the end-stages, Egypt and Turkey would likely have to deal with their own civil wars and purges, but ultimately can be relied on to maintain national integrity and cooperate to destroy a unified Islamist front. Iran can handle itself, and will look out for its interests in the Gulf and in the Caucasus. Israel can also handle itself, and will be useful as a staging ground and logistical hub. Russia, India, and China can be expected to deal with the situation in Pakistan and Central Asia. When expedient, NATO or the UN (representing the West) could deploy massive conventional military force to assist in the destruction of the Islamist regular force and state structure.

The only real mystery is what role Islam in the Pacific Rim will play in the larger confrontation.

All I am saying is that things need to come to a head, and they are not nearly at that point yet. Is it easier to fish water out of a flushing toilet or to smash a block of ice? The West should stay out until at least the end-stages because of the risk of the West itself falling into fascism and civil war otherwise. If your criticism is that it doesn't get rid of "the bad guys", then rest assured that getting rid of the bad guys is exactly what I am describing here. The only real criticism is from a human-rights interventionist perspective that it would be immoral not to "DO SOMETHING", or from a global corporatist perspective that refuses to give up access to commodities and markets no matter what.

[Montmorency]

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/our_terrorism_double_standard_after_paris_lets_stop_blaming_muslims_and_take_a_hard_look_at_ourselve s/

Go sit in the corner.

[Graphic]

Go sit in the corner.

If you take issue with the accurate big picture presented in the article, it would seem you're already sitting in one yourself; or maybe hiding in one, to be more accurate.

[Brenus]

16925
Marianne tears

I wonder when the BUTist will come.
You know, the ones who said about Charlie: BUT...

[Montmorency]

If you take issue with the accurate big picture presented in the article, it would seem you're already sitting in one yourself; or maybe hiding in one, to be more accurate.

What would you say was the "big picture" presented in the article?

The only accurate claim of substance I could find was the unremarkable claim that the West undervalues Muslim victims of Islamist violence relative to Christian victims.

[Papewaio]

That's assuming it becomes a stalemate, that ISIS don't capture nuclear material or weapons from Israel or Iran.

I wouldn't assume Iran can defend itself any better from a ISIS on a roll then Singapore could from WWII Japan.

That's the problem for every quagmire created by Western ideals on how to conquer a country there is a steam roller conquer who makes out like Genghis.

What do we do in 15 years if ISIS hold all of the ME? Do we let the next superpower paradigm be a China vs ISIS dominated world?

ISIS are more likely to fold up and fail once they lose momentum. Let Russia support their Syrian strongman and ISIS will be whittled away.

Yes it won't get rid of the root causes, but it isn't allowing an opportunity for something far worse to evolve.

[Kagemusha]

That's what I said, yes. You don't seem to understand the thrust of my statement, which is not that IS should get free reign but that the various competing factions of the Middle East, Central Asia and North Africa should be allowed to fight it out until they get tired of the devastation.



You're confused over what IS actually is. IS is just one more faction in the Muslim civil war, and it serves as a center of gravity around which all the smaller factions can consolidate with or against.

But IS is not the extent of Sunni Islamism - that's much wider. IS is just one iteration of an Islamist anti-Western state-unit, and in the course of any fraternal conflict where an organization exists or what it calls itself is not as important as the fact that it instigates bloody fighting to further its ideology.

Here's an outline of what has happened so far:

A. Economic/ecological instability and cultural frictions reach high point.
B. Maximalist religious ideologies organize to gain control over peoples and territories.
C. Ethno-religious civil war ensues over an extended period of time.

However, what we have seen for the most part has been low-level fighting and endemic violence. Only decisive violence on a massive scale can bring about change-from-within. For example, look at the moderating effect the catastrophic Iran-Iraq war (the last real interstate war of our age) on the Iranian nation and government.

Going by my suggestion for minimal interference from the West, at some point this will go on until several primary antagonists coalesce, i.e. allied front of Salafism/Wahaabism vs. nation-states like Egypt, Tunisia, Israel, Iran, Turkey, Kazahkhstan, Azerbaijan vs. local tribal polities in much of Central Asia, Libya, Algeria, and the Arabian peninsula. The best possible scenario is that the unified Islamists in whatever form take control of an extensive, contiguous, land territory which they govern as a state. Bonus points if they take over Saudi Arabia and try to organize a combined-arms military. This is the best case because it causes maximal death and suffering for local populations - now bear with me - and because it is the stage in which the Islamists leave themselves most vulnerable for systematic and decisive destruction. By explicitly forming a sprawling state, or "caliphate", they neuter their grassroots advantages. Remember that it is straightforward for a state to destroy another state, while we have seen just how difficult it is for a state or states to combat amorphous transnational movements.

In this broad scenario, most peninsular states would be permitted to collapse, and a strong naval presence maintained in the Southern Mediterranean. Before the end-stages, Egypt and Turkey would likely have to deal with their own civil wars and purges, but ultimately can be relied on to maintain national integrity and cooperate to destroy a unified Islamist front. Iran can handle itself, and will look out for its interests in the Gulf and in the Caucasus. Israel can also handle itself, and will be useful as a staging ground and logistical hub. Russia, India, and China can be expected to deal with the situation in Pakistan and Central Asia. When expedient, NATO or the UN (representing the West) could deploy massive conventional military force to assist in the destruction of the Islamist regular force and state structure.

The only real mystery is what role Islam in the Pacific Rim will play in the larger confrontation.

All I am saying is that things need to come to a head, and they are not nearly at that point yet. Is it easier to fish water out of a flushing toilet or to smash a block of ice? The West should stay out until at least the end-stages because of the risk of the West itself falling into fascism and civil war otherwise. If your criticism is that it doesn't get rid of "the bad guys", then rest assured that getting rid of the bad guys is exactly what I am describing here. The only real criticism is from a human-rights interventionist perspective that it would be immoral not to "DO SOMETHING", or from a global corporatist perspective that refuses to give up access to commodities and markets no matter what.

I dont know which reality you dwell, but one does not kill the patient just to treat the symptoms. You seem to be dreaming of some sort of grand stand between Islamist and others. You know what? IS is dreaming of the similar event. You dont sacrifice 500 million people of Middle East in order to have a go with all the wahhabist at once. That is not strategy, but madness.

[Viking]

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/our_terrorism_double_standard_after_paris_lets_stop_blaming_muslims_and_take_a_hard_look_at_ourselve s/

Complains about Muslims being blamed collectively for violence while blaming Westerners collectively for violence. Boring.


But until we look honestly at the violence we export, nothing will ever change


And not only are Muslims collectively blamed for such attacks; they, too, collectively bear the brunt of the backlash.

[Montmorency]

That's assuming it becomes a stalemate, that ISIS don't capture nuclear material or weapons from Israel or Iran.

And then what? Kill a thousand people with it? Nuclear material makes for piss-poor tactical weapons; I'd be much more worried about the circumstances in which anyone "Captures" anything from Israel and Iran.


I wouldn't assume Iran can defend itself any better from a ISIS on a roll then Singapore could from WWII Japan.

More like the other way around, or Singapore attacking Japan.


That's the problem for every quagmire created by Western ideals on how to conquer a country there is a steam roller conquer who makes out like Genghis.

What do we do in 15 years if ISIS hold all of the ME? Do we let the next superpower paradigm be a China vs ISIS dominated world?

Geography in this case prevents any such power from developing. No state or wannabe-state in the region has the capacity to take and hold so much territory, which is precisely why they should be encouraged to attempt to do so.


I dont know which reality you dwell, but one does not kill the patient just to treat the symptoms. You seem to be dreaming of some sort of grand stand between Islamist and others. You know what? IS is dreaming of the similar event.

Correct. The idea is to make sure they lose.


You dont sacrifice 500 million people of Middle East in order to have a go with all the wahhabist at once. That is not strategy, but madness.

It would probably be more like 5 million.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In France to be exact, you can't just have your EU when you want to be annoyed and want to leave it otherwise.

The majority of Britons quite like the eU - but we want to see a serious effort to root out the corruption in this pseudo-super-state where nobody will sign off on the accounts


The rest of what you posted is coherent though, but not exactly practical or enforceable unless you want to create some kind of DDR border to keep the poor out.

It's called a Limes and it was effective enough at keeping your people out so long as we kept it well manned.


It's also the foundations of the states. Turkish flag is the traditional crescent, while the Saudi flag is the sword below "No God But God" anachronism. Saudis have successfully characterized Islam as a violent struggle. The country was built by the events almost identical to what's going on in Europe and IS. Breaking shrines, executions, genocide, and conquest.


This is all a result of that revivalist movement that is now the Muslim identity.


All of this can be shown to have been carried out by early Muslims either within Muhammed's lifetime or immediately following it.

In the other thread you demonstrated a breathtakingly miss-informed understanding of Christianity alongside a disappointing knowledge of early Islamic Scholarship, trying to tell me Muhammed didn't have a nine-year old wife.

Now your contribution to this thread appears to tell us that these Muslims aren't proper Muslims, like you.

Strike is right - you bring nothing to this discussion, no insight or reflection.



http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/our_terrorism_double_standard_after_paris_lets_stop_blaming_muslims_and_take_a_hard_look_at_ourselve s/


Notably, the article does not cite any of these other "EU" terror attacks, only the ones outside the EU which happened either in a war zone or on the edge of one.


Also notable is the attention given to the Far-Right Norwegian and Swedish terrorist attacks and the soul-searching after Norway in particular when everyone was forced to acknowledge that we all assumed it was a Muslim and not a poster-boy for Nazi Eugenics.

In other news Hollande called this an "Act of War" after IS claimed responsibility, assume we are headed for Afghan War 2.0.

So yay for military contractors and arms manufacturers and a hearty sob for everyone else.

[Montmorency]

In other news Hollande called this an "Act of War" after IS claimed responsibility, assume we are headed for Afghan War 2.0.

I doubt it, even assuming that Hollande is the type of socialist who gets excited at the thought of "V'stavai strana ogromnaya".

[Pannonian]

The majority of Britons quite like the eU - but we want to see a serious effort to root out the corruption in this pseudo-super-state where nobody will sign off on the accounts



It's called a Limes and it was effective enough at keeping your people out so long as we kept it well manned.


In ancient times we relied on the Limes to keep Europe civilised. In modern times we rely on the Limeys to keep Europe civilised.

[Strike For The South]

Reports are now the attackers spoke accent-less French and yet claimed solidarity in with their brothers in Syria.

But please show me the token muslim in the French cabinet again. That was totally mind blowing.

Back the iron fists, supply them weapons, and make sure the trade agreements are friendly. I don't see what else we can do. Backing the rebels only leads to fractious groups....the devil you know.

[AE Bravo]

Pfh - never said they werent proper muslims, nor did i say there was no nine year old wife. What i said about christianity is true because most forms of veneration and the god that jesus himself knew from the torah has been forgotten.

"Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he killed all of humanity"

Rip peace out. Montmorency is right.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I doubt it, even assuming that Hollande is the type of socialist who gets excited at the thought of "V'stavai strana ogromnaya".

The logic may be inescapable.

An attack on NATO by another state, legitimate or not, has to be answered - especially in the face of increasing Russian aggression.

[Brenus]

"token muslim in the French cabinet " Really? Why do you assume that an Muslim woman is a token? It shows more about you than her, as you probably have no idea of her success or failure.
But of course, because she is a woman, a Muslim, she can be only a token. She was just in charge of the Justice department in France (post that you have not reach in your country yet), a very unimportant post in all states, as we all know.

"even assuming that Hollande is the type of socialist" You should first assume that Holland is socialist...

[Strike For The South]

"token muslim in the French cabinet " Really? Why do you assume that an Muslim woman is a token? It shows more about you than her, as you probably have no idea of her success or failure.
But of course, because she is a woman, a Muslim, she can be only a token. She was just in charge of the Justice department in France (post that you have not reach in your country yet), a very unimportant post in all states, as we all know.


One muslim does not change the tide of anything. It says more about you. You think one muslim woman in the French cabinet is somehow proof of successful integration. Head. In. The. Sand.


Pfh - never said they werent proper muslims, nor did i say there was no nine year old wife. What i said about christianity is true because most forms of veneration and the god that jesus himself knew from the torah has been forgotten.

"Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he killed all of humanity"

Rip peace out. Montmorency is right.

You realize he is disagreeing with you right? Do you just look at whoever writes the most words with high brow vocab and think "me and this guy agree"?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Reports are now the attackers spoke accent-less French and yet claimed solidarity in with their brothers in Syria.

But please show me the token muslim in the French cabinet again. That was totally mind blowing.

Back the iron fists, supply them weapons, and make sure the trade agreements are friendly. I don't see what else we can do. Backing the rebels only leads to fractious groups....the devil you know.

Your misguided thinking is part of what got us into this mess. We should have crushed Assad at least two years ago before IS were able to dig in and garner local recruits via Assad's brutality.

If we have to spend a century knocking down tin-pot dictators in the Middle East so that three generations of girls and boys can grow up with even a modicum of peace and form an actual civil society it will be worth it.

The problem with people today is they can only think up to the time of their own death, or perhaps the deaths of their children. We should be planning for the next two centuries at least.


Pfh - never said they werent proper muslims, nor did i say there was no nine year old wife. What i said about christianity is true because most forms of veneration and the god that jesus himself knew from the torah has been forgotten.

"Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he killed all of humanity"

Rip peace out. Montmorency is right.

Really?

"No mention in scripture of the prophet marrying a 9 year old girl or rolling heads for that matter. They weren't intimate until about ten years after. He served his people well and brought them a message that led to great success, made a better society. Gandhi was a racist."

You have repeatedly denigrated the Whabbi version of Islam as being a false "revivalist" movement.

You said Jesus "made war on Rome" which is absurd - he was executed to behaed one Jewish faction and placate another but there is no suggestion he opposed the Roman administration, quite the opposite. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"

Islam condemns those who kill the innocent - Christianity condemns killing (but loves the murderer). Notably, the Islamists believe att Westerns are guilty 0 hence it is permissible for them to be killed.

You are correct that Ghandi was a racist, at least for part of his life.

Here's what I want you to think about "Are these men barbarian monsters?"

I would say yes, regardless of ethnicity and religion.

[Strike For The South]

If we have to spend a century knocking down tin-pot dictators in the Middle East so that three generations of girls and boys can grow up with even a modicum of peace and form an actual civil society it will be worth it.

Where will this ground swell of democracy come from?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Where will this ground swell of democracy come from?
Honestly, that quote could literally have been ripped from 2004. Mission accomplished! They will greet us as liberators!

[Papewaio]

Don't look to politicians for integration look to Zinedine Zidane for an example.

[AE Bravo]

Really?
I didn’t deny that he was married to a young girl. But like i said this is not mentioned in scripture (Qur’an). Again, crucifixion is for enemies of the state. Jesus was also known to see gentiles as below his people. This is fine though, I’m not knocking it at all.

You have repeatedly denigrated the Whabbi version of Islam as being a false "revivalist" movement.
Must have been a misunderstanding. Wahhabism is modified strict orthodoxy. None of the people I've met actually want the life this preaches for themselves. No sane person would.

Here's what I want you to think about "Are these men barbarian monsters?"
Absolutely yes. What did you expect me to contribute exactly? Lose-lose situation for me imo.

Listen this is a fight that we fight every day ourselves. http://heavy.com/news/2015/09/new-isis-islamic-state-videos-pictures-photos-saudi-arabia-cousin-kills-soldier-cousin-full-uncensored-screenshots-screengrabs-stills/2/
A friend of mine from Saudi Arabia had a cousin who was the same way, except that guy actually left and went to Syria. They are killing other Muslims in their sleep, in their mosques, and in their wedding nights. So YOU think about who the real enemy is. There is nothing I despise more than a takfiri, Muslims who feel they are entitled to more and are driven by the heavens more than their worldly obligations.

You realize he is disagreeing with you right? Do you just look at whoever writes the most words with high brow vocab and think "me and this guy agree"?
Anti-western units are reactionary movements born from the first reactionary movement. I hope what Montmorency says isn't going to happen but it will eventually. The west is not capable of stopping the "contagion," this is the duty of Arabs and Muslims.

I look at you and I see a bigot with a "brevity is the soul of wit" persona. It's quite pathetic actually. You are the only person in this thread who talks like he's at a bar rather than sincere discourse.

[Hooahguy]

Just going to remind everyone here to keep it civil, which includes holding off from personal attacks.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Just going to remind everyone here to keep it civil, which includes holding off from personal attacks.
NO, YOU!

[Strike For The South]

I look at you and I see a bigot with a "brevity is the soul of wit" persona. It's quite pathetic actually. You are the only person in this thread who talks like he's at a bar rather than sincere discourse.

My discourse is nothing if not sincere. Believe, you, me. I'm also fairly certain that you are someones alt.

I am also not a bigot. I think the way the Europe handles its immigration is the reason they are in this mess. I think the way the west handles the middle east is the reason we are in this mess. I feel bad for the refugees and the innocent muslims who are slaughtered in the name God.

However, the solution to these problems is not to import people from a different culture en masse and then hope that both of these disparate societies will stay out of each-others way while dipping into the same socialist money pool.

America is the greatest country on earth because of its immigrants. It is quite obvious that it has not always been good, or even close to good at assimilation. However, it is quite telling when a minority feels marginalized in America, he complains about not being American. In Europe they claim solidarity with people who wish their countrymen harm.

But by all means continuing educating me on my bigotry.

[Strike For The South]

Also brevity is the soul of wit. If a post on this site is longer than a few paragraphs, I know the person is wrong. It has been a long time since this forum has had the brain power to sustain anything that would border on interesting.

I'll take that back, I find Monty fairly interesting to read. The rest I either know what they will say or know that they are wrong.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I didn’t deny that he was married to a young girl. But like i said this is not mentioned in scripture (Qur’an).

You tried to dodge - you failed. You implied theire was no nine-year-old wife by omission.

Presumably you thought I didn't know enough to have the name, hoped I'd give up.


Again, crucifixion is for enemies of the state. Jesus was also known to see gentiles as below his people. This is fine though, I’m not knocking it at all.

Irrelevent - the manner of Christ's death doesn't prove anything other than the fact that he was crucified.


Must have been a misunderstanding. Wahhabism is modified strict orthodoxy. None of the people I've met actually want the life this preaches for themselves. No sane person would.

I think you need to use more words, and with more precision.


Absolutely yes. What did you expect me to contribute exactly? Lose-lose situation for me imo.

Your perspective?

Listen this is a fight that we fight every day ourselves. http://heavy.com/news/2015/09/new-isis-islamic-state-videos-pictures-photos-saudi-arabia-cousin-kills-soldier-cousin-full-uncensored-screenshots-screengrabs-stills/2/
A friend of mine from Saudi Arabia had a cousin who was the same way, except that guy actually left and went to Syria. They are killing other Muslims in their sleep, in their mosques, and in their wedding nights. So YOU think about who the real enemy is. There is nothing I despise more than a takfiri, Muslims who feel they are entitled to more and are driven by the heavens more than their worldly obligations.

Anti-western units are reactionary movements born from the first reactionary movement. I hope what Montmorency says isn't going to happen but it will eventually. The west is not capable of stopping the "contagion," this is the duty of Arabs and Muslims.[/QUOTE]

The last thing you said is revealing, when you conflated Arab and Muslim. A large number of the Muslim terrorists are from Morocco and Pakistan, in the latter case especially they are Muslims but emphatically not Arabs.

The problem with the opposition to radical Islam in the Middle East seems to be its inability to create an alternative narrative to the fundamentalist one You say you're "Left-Wing" but your discourse isn't really all that different to theirs, you just cut out the more extreme bits.

[Fragony]

Also brevity is the soul of wit. If a post on this site is longer than a few paragraphs, I know the person is wrong. It has been a long time since this forum has had the brain power to sustain anything that would border on interesting.

I'll take that back, I find Monty fairly interesting to read. The rest I either know what they will say or know that they are wrong.


Yes, you all know what I will say so I don't say anything, but I will buy you all a beer though

I lied, saying something anyway, that plumb easblock farmhorse Merkel should have been gently but firmly been escorted to a room with padded walls in a selfhugsuit years ago. It's well known that she is religiously insane

[Kagemusha]

Also brevity is the soul of wit. If a post on this site is longer than a few paragraphs, I know the person is wrong. It has been a long time since this forum has had the brain power to sustain anything that would border on interesting.

I'll take that back, I find Monty fairly interesting to read. The rest I either know what they will say or know that they are wrong.


Yes loosing maybe 5 million (Monty´s own estimate) and ruining lives of 500 million people in order to maybe get to a certain hypothetical situation, which would favor the very limited US way of dealing with enemies. Namely being able to fight them with 0 own casualties, is surely fairly interesting. At least if asked from psychologist evaluating how delusional such plan is, in its all nihilism.

But then your posts never had much to add in the "brain power" of this site in any case. Maybe you should take the example of DivinusArma and post to each Middle East topic two words: " Sheet of Glass" . That would surely be safe approach. It would suite your posting better then the high horse you currently are.

[Viking]

Where will this ground swell of democracy come from?

People wouldn't be hoping for democracy directly, but for peace, stability and prosperity. If the peace is built on subjugation, torture and death - how long do you think it will last?

People want justice and to be able to speak their minds, and if the current state of things is lacking in this regard, it will probably be unstable in the long run.

[Brenus]

"You think one muslim woman in the French cabinet is somehow proof of successful integration." No, that is an indication of what you think is absolutely out of touch and reality.
You come up with a claim you cannot back-up with facts, so your only choice is denial or dismissal. I don't blame you for this as you don't have really other things to do.
I could have go for successful businessmen and women, or, sportsmen, or whoever, you would come back with the same "answer" from your belief.
France has the highest number of "Muslim" in Europe (excluding Turkey). Most of them are of course atheist, as the general French population. Probably because they living in horrid ghettos and apartheid...
As head in the sand, you could start to put your out of it, and look around you. You will see the world somewhere else else than in your head.

I put it back:
16926

[Kagemusha]

My hat is off to the French. The thing is that while many people are hurting and afraid because of this senseless violence from few lunatics. France is not going to change. France is not going to turn into a police state and French people will not hover in the corner with a personal weapon for self protection. No they will not let the terrorist win and change into what the terrorist would like for them to become. They will not become victims, but live on. Hurting, with anger and sorrow, but without letting those sentiments control them.

There is a price for freedom and that price is not to live in fear. No matter how much that may cost. Once people understand that, there is no stopping freedom. Without that understanding there never can be freedom. French know and cherish this because they have had their fair share of history of oppression and i am positive that they will never again allow such to happen, not because of pressure coming from outside or within.

For the very same reason Europeans cant close their borders and shut their eyes for the events taking place at Middle East, as the reason for the masses of Asylum seekers are there and those are the very same lunatics that are behind the atrocities that are happening or already have happened at Iraq,Syria,Libya, Lebanon,Egypt and now France.

[Gilrandir]

I enjoy the many cultures that London contains, and I wouldn't want to homogenise it. But there are some positions that are antithetical to the liberal world that I love. Islamism is one.

Who will sort out the things which should stay in this unhomogenized London and which shouldn't? Who will draw the borderline between "this is alien but it's OK" and "it is so unBritish"? As I said: one has to pay some price for letting international cuisine in and hoping that all international intrusion will stop at that. Evidently dealing with the situation in the way you suggest will presuppose letting liberalism alone.




My dear, if the Islamist attack France it is because France represents all what they hate. France embraces life when they embrace death, France values liberty, they value slavery, France values equality, they value discrimination, France values Fraternity, they value racism.
France embraces science, secularism, they prefer superstition and obscurantism.
To summary it, let give me the message from a caricaturist Joann SFAR:
"Friends from the whole World, thanks you for your #pray for Paris, but we don't need more Religion! Our faith goes to music! Kisses! Life! Champagne! Joy! Paris is about life".

They value death, so they attack life


So much pathos! When I had expessed a similar one two years ago I was blamed as being too emotionally invested. Perhaps you suggest there should be another march which will show to the world that the French are... what will it show, by the way, and what has the CH one shown?

Own up to it: France's immigartion policies that created the largest islamic community of Europe is what created a fruitful soil for islamists who planted the seeds they wanted.



They blew up a plane with 224 Russians and people asked "Will Putin become more barbarian now?"


Confusing cause and consequence. FIRST Putin became barbarian by starting bombing Syria and THEN the plane was downed.


My hat is off to the French. The thing is that while many people are hurting and afraid because of this senseless violence from few lunatics. France is not going to change. France is not going to turn into a police state and French people will not hover in the corner with a personal weapon for self protection. No they will not let the terrorist win and change into what the terrorist would like for them to become. They will not become victims, but live on. Hurting, with anger and sorrow, but without letting those sentiments control them.

There is a price for freedom and that price is not to live in fear. No matter how much that may cost. Once people understand that, there is no stopping freedom. Without that understanding there never can be freedom. French know and cherish this because they have had their fair share of history of oppression and i am positive that they will never again allow such to happen, not because of pressure coming from outside or within.

For the very same reason Europeans cant close their borders and shut their eyes for the events taking place at Middle East, as the reason for the masses of Asylum seekers are there and those are the very same lunatics that are behind the atrocities that are happening or already have happened at Iraq,Syria,Libya, Lebanon,Egypt and now France.

I'm afraid, CH attack didn't teach the French (and Europeans in general) a lot. You can't live a liberal and carefree life being surrounded by barbarians. You can't live the way you did and hope such things as those in Paris to never happen (again). You gotta adopt some common sense and be more on your guard, as Israel is.

The France that we know of from history is dead. What for may the fresh (and not so fresh) immigrants value Joan of Arc, for example? Or Charles de Gaulle? It is like an ordinary Frenchman can't feel anything special about Saladin who liberated the lands of Muslims from Europeans. No good will come of admixing one culture to another.

Closing borders is the only sensible solution against the future trouble. Of course, it is not a guarantee, yet it is a step on this way. You may be as sorry for the refugees as you like, but solving problems of one person (or even a group of persons) at the expense of others will not make either happier: the first ones will cry for more and develop and deepen in the second the sense of guilt while the second will have to live with it and side by side with the newcomers as well.

[Husar]

Confusing cause and consequence. FIRST Putin became barbarian by starting bombing Syria and THEN the plane was downed.

Confusing my point with your point you are.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The problem with Islamism in Europe is that it's very hard to fight effectively. If you refuse to rise to the bait and crack down on Muslims then that makes it harder to stop these plots, if you do crack down then you create more terrorists. If you try to steer a "middle course" as the UK does then you tend to get the worst of both worlds - it's harder to stop attacks and you still end up ostracising Muslims.

Since 2001 Muslims have become much more visible in Europe - there are a lot of reports of women in their late twenties and thirties deciding to wear headscaves to show that they are Muslim, and of women who wear headscarves deciding to wear veils to more clearly show their faith. There has been a fair amount written about this and their have been quite a few documentaries. One thing that crops up a lot is that the change in dress is often as much performative as pious, the woman in question doesn't feel it makes her a better Muslim so much as she feels a need to show her faith more clearly to non-Muslims.

What this means is that people who were integrated are actually choosing to de-integrate and be ostracised from their own society (they are overwhelmingly second or third generation, or converts).

This is, frankly, a huge problem.

This is one of the reasons why I have argued for a consistent policy on the Middle East - the radically different approaches to Libya and Syria have convinced many at home and abroad that it was "all about the oil" when in fact it largely wasn't. European leaders were moved to support what they saw as a relatively liberal grass-roots revolt against a brutal and insane dictator.

Then, when the Syrians rose up because they believed we would support them too we sat about and wrung our hands about UN resolutions and did little or nothing. As a result the liberal opposition and the mass of people in Syria felt "betrayed" something that was reported in multiple interviews with the early resistence conducted by Western journalists. So now the Syrians were in a fight and had been turned off to the West and Western ideals and then along came IS who creamed off the angry young men and filled the void in fighting the regime.

At the same time Libya fell apart at least partially because of what happened in Syria - without NATO as this great arbiter of holy wrath who dropped fire from the sky the more Right-Wing sections in Libya no longer felt the need to co-operate in forming a government and things unravelled. At the same time the success of IS in Syria and Iraq has emboldened other Islamists and they are attracting adherents across the world - first in the Middle East and now cells in Europe.

So, short term, I say build a Limes to control the flow of people into Europe and fight the Islamists and the tin-pot dictators wherever we find them. Long term, finish weaning ourselves off Saudi oil and then offer them a choice - reform and religious liberalisation or an end to the alliance with the West and Western military hardware.

[lars573]

My discourse is nothing if not sincere. Believe, you, me. I'm also fairly certain that you are someones alt.

I am also not a bigot. I think the way the Europe handles its immigration is the reason they are in this mess. I think the way the west handles the middle east is the reason we are in this mess. I feel bad for the refugees and the innocent muslims who are slaughtered in the name God.

However, the solution to these problems is not to import people from a different culture en masse and then hope that both of these disparate societies will stay out of each-others way while dipping into the same socialist money pool.

America is the greatest country on earth because of its immigrants. It is quite obvious that it has not always been good, or even close to good at assimilation. However, it is quite telling when a minority feels marginalized in America, he complains about not being American. In Europe they claim solidarity with people who wish their countrymen harm.

But by all means continuing educating me on my bigotry.
I agree that Europe has a problem with integration. But I wouldn't hold up North America as some kind of shining example. Our integration of immigrants works on a multi-generational schedule. Which pretty much writes off the first two generations of new arrivals. They'll never fully integrate. But the 3rd generation is the one that's mostly integrated. Yes I'm not using assimilated because Canada doesn't ask that.

[AE Bravo]

Keep it short guys, just to conform to the overinflated sense of self worth.

You implied theire was no nine-year-old wife by omission.
No.

Irrelevent - the manner of Christ's death doesn't prove anything other than the fact that he was crucified.
Crucifixion is a sentence reserved for enemies of the state. :rolleyes:

You say I'm "breathtakingly" ignorant but you yourself show equal ignorance towards Islam.

The problem with the opposition to radical Islam in the Middle East seems to be its inability to create an alternative narrative to the fundamentalist one You say you're "Left-Wing" but your discourse isn't really all that different to theirs, you just cut out the more extreme bits.
Currently there's an arms race across the ME for counterterrorism and domestic unrest. How's that for narrative. How is my discourse similar to theirs? In your radical world all Muslims are extreme judging from your first post in this thread. Just stop talking, it's a truly ridiculous thing to say.

Also brevity is the soul of wit. If a post on this site is longer than a few paragraphs...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Must've struck a nerve. You've put a lot of effort this time kid.

[Brenus]

"So much pathos! When I had expessed a similar one two years ago I was blamed as being too emotionally invested. Perhaps you suggest there should be another march which will show to the world that the French are... what will it show, by the way, and what has the CH one shown?" :laugh4: I was waiting for this... I am not disappointed.:2thumbsup:

If you can't find the answer, sorry, I can't fill your emptiness.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No.

Yep

You said "There's nothing in Scripture about Muhammed having a 9-year old wife" instead of "The Haddiths disagree on how old Aisha was when they consummated the relationship".


Crucifixion is a sentence reserved for enemies of the state. :rolleyes:

The fact that Jesus was innocent of the charges is a central plank of Christianity.

He said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". Jesus was not, in his own lifetime, a very important or influential man.


You say I'm "breathtakingly" ignorant but you yourself show equal ignorance towards Islam.

Well, let's see - the main plank of Islam is that Christian and Jewish scripture is wrong so God sent the Angel Gabriel to Muhammed to reveal the correct way to worship God and live one's life and the revalations Gabriel gave to Muhammed are the writings contained within the Koran alongside a biography of the Prophet himself.

How'm I doing?

Let's see...

According to Islam Muslims are descended from from Ishmael, Abraham's son by his slave Hagar (but in the Islamic tradition he marries Hagar) and God then commands Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away and, unlike the Jewish tradition, Abraham remains in contact with his son and eventually they (re)build the Kaaba. This story is the basis for the Muslim claim to be "original" monotheists rather than a Jewish or Christian offshoots.

I also know that Muslims, unlike Christians, generally believe that heaven will only exist after Judgement Day and, as I recall, Muslims do not believe in Hell - just that those found wanting will be cast into a pit of fire. I confess I don't precisely understand how Muslims are supposed to get to Heaven but from my reading I understand that, again contrary to Christianity, a Muslim's deed are judged on a balance against a feather. I'm not sure if that's supposed to mean that all Muslims are meant to fail, or if it's actually a very heavy metaphorical feather.

All of this is very different to Christianity or Judaism.


Currently there's an arms race across the ME for counterterrorism and domestic unrest. How's that for narrative. How is my discourse similar to theirs? In your radical world all Muslims are extreme judging from your first post in this thread. Just stop talking, it's a truly ridiculous thing to say.

My radical world? In Christian terms I'm about as boring, stuffy, and old-fashioned as you can get. Anyway, I'm not judging Islam - I'm pointing up the gulf between Muslim and Christian (and thence post-Christian) thought. You seem oblivious to the differences. I recognise that you don't believe in the Gospel story of Jesus as God but you have repeatedly miss-construed or miss-represented his actions as reported by early Christians and their significance. At the same time you gloss over the more violent episodes in the Koran and in Muslim history. The fact is that Christians learned Holy War from the Muslims, one of the reasons the Roman and Persian Empires folded up during the Islamic Conquests (aside from fatigue) is that they were completely unprepared for the way the Muslims fought, and particularly the belief that death in battle was a way to enter heaven - early Christian saints are all conscientious objectors or outright pacifists.

If you look at Muhammed, his companions, and the early Caliphs you see that they're all clever administrators, cunning politicians and accomplished, sometimes ruthless, generals. That is, of course, how they look the Perisaian Empire and two thirds of the remaining Roman Empire in really just a few years.

I have no problem with that - I simple object to Islam being described as a "religion of peace" when early Islamic religious expansion was achieved via military conquest.

[AE Bravo]

If you still want to discuss religious shit take it to the other thread, I'll kindly tell you how wrong you are.

I remember Will T Sherman guy over there saying how everyone's "too comfortable, too soft." I live in Allah country buddy, it's far from comfortable. We lost my cousin a month ago in Yemen fighting Ansarullah Houthis. I have two more years before I get mandatory drafted for the fight. Get off your "texan" (whatever that is) high horse and act like a man for once in this forum.

First off I think it’s fair to say that some EU countries have displayed cowardice in their foreign policy and treatment of the middle east. France’s work in Mali is good work but the way all these western countries conduct intervention is totally counterproductive.

Picking a side after intervening directly leads to anti-western jihad. By supporting rebel groups you are eradicating their legitimacy and cause them to lose the hearts and minds of that country's population, at the same time making yourself a target for Islamists. Islamists revere the Umayyad caliphate. The definition of traitor in the Arab-Muslim world is collaboration with foreign forces against your own people.

"From Caesar of Rome to Muawiya,
We've come to know of what has occurred between you and Ali, and we see that you are more fitting for the Caliphate and so if you wish I will send you an army which will retrieve for you the head of Ali."
and so Muawiya replied to him saying,
"From Muawiya to Hercules,
Two brothers disputing so what right do you have to intervene? If you don't keep quiet I will send you an army its forerunners near you while its rearmost near me, to retrieve your head which I would then give to Ali."

You can question the historicity of this letter but this is the frame of reference for Islamists, especially IS. Neutrality should preclude intervention into Muslim lands, or just don't intervene. PFH believes Islam provides "fertile soil" anywhere in the world for Islamism, that's just ludicrous because these are all politically-charged operations, and the only way to convince someone to strap a bomb to himself is to use shaheed martyrdom for inspiration. It's funny when the west asks "why do they hate us?" when Islamists generally don't discriminate, recently blowing up a mosques in Kuwait and KSA and Turkey. Even Muslims are "sub-humans" to Islamists.

[Strike For The South]

Yes loosing maybe 5 million (Monty´s own estimate) and ruining lives of 500 million people in order to maybe get to a certain hypothetical situation, which would favor the very limited US way of dealing with enemies. Namely being able to fight them with 0 own casualties, is surely fairly interesting. At least if asked from psychologist evaluating how delusional such plan is, in its all nihilism.

But then your posts never had much to add in the "brain power" of this site in any case. Maybe you should take the example of DivinusArma and post to each Middle East topic two words: " Sheet of Glass" . That would surely be safe approach. It would suite your posting better then the high horse you currently are.

Calm down there coal miners daughter. I said I found him interesting. The west just killed 50 civillans in airstrike, I would prefer if we decided to use violence to use it effectively. All this does is print more terrorists off the assembly line. So allowing them to kill each other indefinitely does stop and make me think. We could even do what we did in the Iran Iraq war and supply both sides. That worked out very well until Saddam bit off more than he could chew.


People wouldn't be hoping for democracy directly, but for peace, stability and prosperity. If the peace is built on subjugation, torture and death - how long do you think it will last?

People want justice and to be able to speak their minds, and if the current state of things is lacking in this regard, it will probably be unstable in the long run.

Justice and speaking your mind become harder under an autocracy which is seemingly the only thing that works in the region.




"You think one muslim woman in the French cabinet is somehow proof of successful integration." No, that is an indication of what you think is absolutely out of touch and reality.
You come up with a claim you cannot back-up with facts, so your only choice is denial or dismissal. I don't blame you for this as you don't have really other things to do.
I could have go for successful businessmen and women, or, sportsmen, or whoever, you would come back with the same "answer" from your belief.
France has the highest number of "Muslim" in Europe (excluding Turkey). Most of them are of course atheist, as the general French population. Probably because they living in horrid ghettos and apartheid...
As head in the sand, you could start to put your out of it, and look around you. You will see the world somewhere else else than in your head.

French social policy demands integration at the cost of even the most minor cultural traditions. The country will never be able to truly assimilate a disparate cultural group. You can post the elite or the 1/1000 rags to riches success stories but it doesn't change the fact the muslims are France are becoming less integrated. When you ban the small fish like headscarves and language you alienate populations.

The French muslim population sympathizes with ISIS in droves. They sign up to fight at a higher rate then any other Western nation. The base for ISIS support in the west is in France. The Washington Post has numbers. I'm sure you've seen and I'm sure youll post some hand wringing journalist trying to explain them away.

Now certainly this is not the sole fault of French policy. The post 2008 economic malaise doesn't help nor does a west as whole that carries no real values beyond "If it feels good, do it." These young men look for purpose and all we can offer in return is hedonism. That is our fault.


I agree that Europe has a problem with integration. But I wouldn't hold up North America as some kind of shining example. Our integration of immigrants works on a multi-generational schedule. Which pretty much writes off the first two generations of new arrivals. They'll never fully integrate. But the 3rd generation is the one that's mostly integrated. Yes I'm not using assimilated because Canada doesn't ask that.

Right. I never said America was perfect, or even good. Just that integration is trending positive, not negative.

[Strike For The South]

I remember Will T Sherman guy over there saying how everyone's "too comfortable, too soft." I live in Allah country buddy, it's far from comfortable. We lost my cousin a month ago in Yemen fighting Ansarullah Houthis. I have two more years before I get mandatory drafted for the fight. Get off your "texan" (whatever that is) high horse and act like a man for once in this forum.


I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.

William Tecumseh Sherman

[Brenus]

"The French muslim population sympathizes with ISIS in droves. They sign up to fight at a higher rate then any other Western nation. The base for ISIS support in the west is in France. The Washington Post has numbers. I'm sure you've seen" :laugh4: No, I didn't, but I am sure you will provide a link. And of course from where your statistic come from... I sure ISIL publish interesting ones...
Dear, the "Muslim" population were fighting for France and were giving their blood long before the USA even recognised blacks as human being.
Still head in the sand, I see...

[Strike For The South]

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

Also, those muslims who were "fighting for France" were conscripted. I doubt the Indians in the British army would feel they were defending the queen.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If you still want to discuss religious shit take it to the other thread, I'll kindly tell you how wrong you are.

By all means - my, as I said, is that you have a very strong tendency to gloss over the differences.


I remember Will T Sherman guy over there saying how everyone's "too comfortable, too soft." I live in Allah country buddy, it's far from comfortable. We lost my cousin a month ago in Yemen fighting Ansarullah Houthis. I have two more years before I get mandatory drafted for the fight. Get off your "texan" (whatever that is) high horse and act like a man for once in this forum.

From Strike's perspective, from where he lives and where he grew up the UAE is very soft living. As you said, everybody is rich.


First off I think it’s fair to say that some EU countries have displayed cowardice in their foreign policy and treatment of the middle east. France’s work in Mali is good work but the way all these western countries conduct intervention is totally counterproductive.

Picking a side after intervening directly leads to anti-western jihad. By supporting rebel groups you are eradicating their legitimacy and cause them to lose the hearts and minds of that country's population, at the same time making yourself a target for Islamists. Islamists revere the Umayyad caliphate. The definition of traitor in the Arab-Muslim world is collaboration with foreign forces against your own people.

"From Caesar of Rome to Muawiya,
We've come to know of what has occurred between you and Ali, and we see that you are more fitting for the Caliphate and so if you wish I will send you an army which will retrieve for you the head of Ali."
and so Muawiya replied to him saying,
"From Muawiya to Hercules,
Two brothers disputing so what right do you have to intervene? If you don't keep quiet I will send you an army its forerunners near you while its rearmost near me, to retrieve your head which I would then give to Ali."

You can question the historicity of this letter but this is the frame of reference for Islamists, especially IS. Neutrality should preclude intervention into Muslim lands, or just don't intervene. PFH believes Islam provides "fertile soil" anywhere in the world for Islamism, that's just ludicrous because these are all politically-charged operations, and the only way to convince someone to strap a bomb to himself is to use shaheed martyrdom for inspiration. It's funny when the west asks "why do they hate us?" when Islamists generally don't discriminate, recently blowing up a mosques in Kuwait and KSA and Turkey. Even Muslims are "sub-humans" to Islamists.

OK, well first off the letter is a fake - the Emperor at the time was Constantine IV, Heraclius had been dead several decades by the like Muawiya became Caliph. Heraclius is the Emperor contemptuous with Muhammed himself, the title "Caesar" is also anachronistic.

It makes the point as a piece of propaganda, though.

In any case, what I was arguing was that we should have picked a side years ago - we have actually picked a side in Syria though - the side(s) against Assad and IS.

As far as Western intervention goes, though, I can't tell if you're saying the Islamists will see any Muslims we co-operate with as "tainted" or whether you're saying all other Muslims will see it that way. If it's the latter case then that's just ammunition for people who say the Arab world has slid back into the dark ages, because it's foolish to think like that. The only Powers able to help a Liberal or just moderate revolt in an Arab country are Western Powers, or possibly the Kingdom of Jordan if they were inclined. In the future Tunisia and Egypt may become stable democracies but we won't know that for decades and they have their own problems.

If what you're saying is that the Muslim Arab world won't be helped then you're playing into the hands of the people who just want to build a concrete wall around the Middle East and let the whole thing go to Hell - or even further into Hell.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"The French muslim population sympathizes with ISIS in droves. They sign up to fight at a higher rate then any other Western nation. The base for ISIS support in the west is in France. The Washington Post has numbers. I'm sure you've seen" :laugh4: No, I didn't, but I am sure you will provide a link. And of course from where your statistic come from... I sure ISIL publish interesting ones...
Dear, the "Muslim" population were fighting for France and were giving their blood long before the USA even recognised blacks as human being.
Still head in the sand, I see...

Ask and ye shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/france-the-secular-seat-of-europe-to-lose-so-many-to-radical-islam

[Montmorency]

Well, let's also highlight that Islamists have their own ideological divisions.

IS are of course the most extreme, the "aggressive AI" version of Islamism. Al Qaeda is another such, but they are notably different in the details and timescales of their operations.

Others believe in "defensive jihad", which most modestly means that you stay out unless there's a casus belli like 'boots on the ground' or less modestly 'Israeli oppression of Palestinians. This is arguably where Hamas and Hezbollah fall, which is why they are currently struggling against (so far relatively small-scale) IS recruitment efforts in the Levant.

The weak-Islamist types are the most prevalent in Europe; they are the ones who don't really stomach direct violence or terrorist campaigns, but do want to displace or overshadow Western cultures (at the very least in the Muslim world) through what we would call "soft power".

[Papewaio]

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

Also, those muslims who were "fighting for France" were conscripted. I doubt the Indians in the British army would feel they were defending the queen.

Learn your history the Muslims in India were not anti British. Learn about Football (soccer) and Cricket and you might understand a crucial cultural tie between UK and the rest of the world.

"In 1939 the Indian Army numbered 205,000 men. It took in volunteers and by 1945 was the largest all-volunteer force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men.[11] These forces included tank, artillery and airborne forces. Indian soldiers earned 30 Victoria Crosses during the World War II"

[Montmorency]

Learn your history the Muslims in India were not anti British. Learn about Football (soccer) and Cricket and you might understand a crucial cultural tie between UK and the rest of the world.

"In 1939 the Indian Army numbered 205,000 men. It took in volunteers and by 1945 was the largest all-volunteer force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men.[11] These forces included tank, artillery and airborne forces. Indian soldiers earned 30 Victoria Crosses during the World War II"

On the other hand, Queen Victoria did not reign over the Empire during the world wars.

[Strike For The South]

Learn your history the Muslims in India were not anti British. Learn about Football (soccer) and Cricket and you might understand a crucial cultural tie between UK and the rest of the world.

"In 1939 the Indian Army numbered 205,000 men. It took in volunteers and by 1945 was the largest all-volunteer force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men.[11] These forces included tank, artillery and airborne forces. Indian soldiers earned 30 Victoria Crosses during the World War II"

Are we now defending empire? Im also aware that most Indians today begrudge their colonial past. Our resident Frenchman was making it seem like Frances imperial muslims were rushing to save the republic, they were not.

[Papewaio]

On the other hand, Queen Victoria did not reign over the Empire during the world wars.

What are you talking about?

[Strike For The South]

What are you talking about?

The idea that Frances imperial subjects were fighting for the republic in the world wars is absurd. Brenus was trying to conflate the integration of Today's muslims with French muslims fighting in the world wars. He even took a shot at the USA, but the fact of the matter is, one has nothing to do with the other.

Millions of people trying to integrate into your society is not the same as soldiers from the empire or a few upper class minorities you can trot out and claim how well the republic is doing.

[Montmorency]

What are you talking about?

A little pedantic, but Strike said that he doubted "the Indians in the British Army felt they were defending the queen".

Regardless, there surely were differences in attitude - for all ethnicities represented in the military- between 1840 and 1940.

[Strike For The South]

A little pedantic, but Strike said that he doubted "the Indians in the British Army felt they were defending the queen".

Regardless, there surely were differences in attitude - for all ethnicities represented in the military- between 1840 and 1940.

Bruh. Let me have my figure of speech.

In any event I find it hilarious empire is now being trotted out as a net positive for cultural relations. Brown people were fighting for France because brutally decided they were in charge of their lands

I'm sure that left a good taste in their mouths.

[Papewaio]

Are we now defending empire? Im also aware that most Indians today begrudge their colonial past. Our resident Frenchman was making it seem like Frances imperial muslims were rushing to save the republic, they were not.

They volunteered it was their choice. It wasn't Empire demanding for them to join up, nor after independence joining the Commonwealth.

It is a rebuttal that Muslims and Indians in general did not chose to fight alongside the British. If they were anti British you will have to explain the largest volunteer fighting force the world has ever seen being on the British side.

[Montmorency]

The idea that Frances imperial subjects were fighting for the republic in the world wars is absurd.

By the way, Strike, have you ever heard of the classicist Victor Davis Hanson?

He once wrote a book in which he presented the cases that:

1. The Thebans were true democrats motivated in fighting Sparta by the moral imperative of freeing the helots.

2. The Unionists were true democrats motivated in fighting the Confederacy by the moral imperative of freeing the Negro slaves.

3. The Americans were true democrats motivated in fighting the Nazis and Japanese by the moral imperative of freeing the world from fascist tyranny.

You would get a real kick out of it...

[Montmorency]

They volunteered it was their choice. It wasn't Empire demanding for them to join up, nor after independence joining the Commonwealth.

It is a rebuttal that Muslims and Indians in general did not chose to fight alongside the British. If they were anti British you will have to explain the largest volunteer fighting force the world has ever seen being on the British side.

There were enough Indians for many millions to be both violently for and violently against the Commonwealth, as well as many more who were apathetic or some more nuanced position.

[Papewaio]

Bruh. Let me have my figure of speech.

In any event I find it hilarious empire is now being trotted out as a net positive for cultural relations. Brown people were fighting for France because brutally decided they were in charge of their lands

I'm sure that left a good taste in their mouths.

Have you read anything by Dumas?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They volunteered it was their choice. It wasn't Empire demanding for them to join up, nor after independence joining the Commonwealth.

It is a rebuttal that Muslims and Indians in general did not chose to fight alongside the British. If they were anti British you will have to explain the largest volunteer fighting force the world has ever seen being on the British side.

A large number of the Indians defected to the Japanese side and then fought handily against the Allies after the fall of Singapore.

You should not disregard economic factors and the belief we were simply going to win - as opposed to support for the Commonwealth.

[Strike For The South]

By the way, Strike, have you ever heard of the classicist Victor Davis Hanson?

He once wrote a book in which he presented the cases that:

1. The Thebans were true democrats motivated in fighting Sparta by the moral imperative of freeing the helots.

2. The Unionists were true democrats motivated in fighting the Confederacy by the moral imperative of freeing the Negro slaves.

3. The Americans were true democrats motivated in fighting the Nazis and Japanese by the moral imperative of freeing the world from fascist tyranny.

You would get a real kick out of it...

I've read his work and he overstates his case. I can understand how you draw similarities between my and his ideas though.


Have you read anything by Dumas?


I have not. I took a date once to the movie version of "the count of monte cristo"

[Papewaio]

A large number of the Indians defected to the Japanese side and then fought handily against the Allies after the fall of Singapore.

You should not disregard economic factors and the belief we were simply going to win - as opposed to support for the Commonwealth.

40,000 mainly POWs so not exactly volunteer and the same for the civilians living in Burma and Malaysia

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

40,000 mainly POWs so not exactly volunteer and the same for the civilians living in Burma and Malaysia

They fought well though, didn't they?

[Papewaio]

They fought well though, didn't they?

They died well.

[AE Bravo]

From Strike's perspective, from where he lives and where he grew up the UAE is very soft living. As you said, everybody is rich.
LOL yeah I’m sure people have it rough in Texas. Their school textbooks are wonderful, I’m sure they get time in prison for speaking out too.

It’s funny because some of them actually think they have it rough. How cute.

what I was arguing was that we should have picked a side years ago - we have actually picked a side in Syria though - the side(s) against Assad and IS.
So basically you would’ve preferred to have this mess sooner rather than later.

The only Powers able to help a Liberal or just moderate revolt in an Arab country are Western Powers
Apparently not. Picking a side will always lead to Islamist hydra. De-Baathification of the Iraqi army was the icing on the cake, you should’ve kept the high-morale secular armies while they were here instead of running them off to terrorist orgs and replacing them with head-drilling Shia militias who have had the time of their lives collecting the heads of your soldiers/American marines.

playing into the hands of the people who just want to build a concrete wall around the Middle East and let the whole thing go to Hell - or even further into Hell.
You either help like a responsible world power as China is doing in Africa or Russia is currently doing in collaboration with a legitimate incumbent - or you leave.

I blame certain countries for allowing US, British, and French military bases instead of Russian ones. GTFO for god's sake and quit crying about immigration, we lose thousands over here your speaking one breath.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Montmorency]

We need to retool our military to fight borderless wars. Invest in more special forces that move throughout hostile areas and exterminate local/regional ISIS leadership at the same time we bomb strongholds where leaders reside.

And what would that achieve?


Create a propaganda division to stem the tide of radicalization through the promotion of moderate Islamic ideas.

All evidence points against this working, both in the specific case of Islam and for "moderate" propaganda more generally.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Montmorency]

Think of it as trimming the hedges with the added benefit of no one knowing who did it.

:inquisitive:

Well, it will be obvious who did it - the same operators as usual, no? The value isn't really in "trimming the hedges", but in comforting the electorates and in martial posturing between world powers. Better than throwing around nukes, I suppose, but still pretty wasteful.


As for propoganda, the West has simply been doing it wrong. I'm still reading on the matter but again, the goal imo is not about destroying Islamists but preventing the idea from spreading. We must push a successful propoganda message or we are fighting an endless stream of young Muslims.

As it comes to "my fantasy", I maintain that encouragement from the West will not have much impact on Islamism either way; it must deflate itself through fraternal bloodshed.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Of course it's obvious to ISIS but with special forces exposure to the public is minimized, risk of civilian death is lower than drone strikes. My impression is that the US is associated with drones in the air raining bombs and soldiers storming into urban areas, that's what the Islamic community expects to see from the West (as that has been our policy for 15 years).

[Strike For The South]

LOL yeah I’m sure people have it rough in Texas. Their school textbooks are wonderful, I’m sure they get time in prison for speaking out too.

It’s funny because some of them actually think they have it rough. How cute.


You mad bro?

[Papewaio]

I have not. I took a date once to the movie version of "the count of monte cristo"

As cool as the characters are in Dumas books are, his father was way more interesting.

[Strike For The South]

As cool as the characters are in Dumas books are, his father was way more interesting.

Oh that changes everything.

We found the Steve Jobs of revolutionary France.

Does that really change your mind? 1 man? 1 man who is not tangentially related to the issue at hand.

"At one point a half black man in France was well regarded".

That would be like me pointing to Crispus Attucks and saying the American revolution was spearheaded by black Americans.

[Papewaio]

It is one example of many that shows that Africans have been better treated in France then the US. If you read about Dumas then you would learn about his mentor:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_de_Saint-George

It was in 1793 Dumas made General in Chief, it took until 1975 for an African American to reach the equivalent rank in the U.S.

Toussaint Louverture was the second African-Frenchman to be a four star equivalent for France in 1797.

You are very wrong about France's integration. U.S. isn't the leader in this, yes better then Australia but that is because we are borderline apartheid until the sixties.

[a completely inoffensive name]

It is one example of many that shows that Africans have been better treated in France then the US. If you read about Dumas then you would learn about his mentor:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_de_Saint-George

It was in 1793 Dumas made General in Chief, it took until 1975 for an African American to reach the equivalent rank in the U.S.

Toussaint Louverture was the second African-Frenchman to be a four star equivalent for France in 1797.

You are very wrong about France's integration. U.S. isn't the leader in this, yes better then Australia but that is because we are borderline apartheid until the sixties.
French sure didn't treat them well outside of their borders. Also, when was the last time France elected a black prime minister?

[AE Bravo]

You mad bro?
I tend to get mad at the mouthbreather crew on the right.

I can't seem to find the ones that aren't mouthbreathers on the internet, they go full retard anonymously.

[Papewaio]

French sure didn't treat them well outside of their borders. Also, when was the last time France elected a black prime minister?

You do know that France is a Republic right?

[a completely inoffensive name]

You do know that France is a Republic right?
Makes no difference to my point, so please answer it. Last black french president?
( I was 99% sure France had a prime minister though.)

[Brenus]

Yes, France has a PM but he is not elected.
When is the last time US has a female President?
Your question is a godwin. When the last US had a Hispano elected President, a Jew elected President? A Mormon, Asiatic? I can make the lst longer. All right, a last one for the pleasure: A homeless black women handicapped and lesbian?

But the way, it looks that the West of France is in Belgium.

[Fragony]

I tend to get mad at the mouthbreather crew on the right.

I can't seem to find the ones that aren't mouthbreathers on the internet, they go full retard anonymously.

No offense intended but no matter full retard it may be, they got a point. It's rediculous to not to take islam into the equation, something some people refuse to do (that's not personally directed at you). I am really tired of gutmenschen and islamphiles who refuse to acknowledge a simple truth, that islam isn't peace. I know that these guys are as welcome as the inquisition for normal muslims who only care aabout what's for dinner, looking away is kinda dumb

[Montmorency]

When was the last time France had an Englishman for Prime Minister?

:verycool:

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[AE Bravo]

No offense intended but no matter full retard it may be, they got a point. It's rediculous to not to take islam into the equation, something some people refuse to do (that's not personally directed at you). I am really tired of gutmenschen and islamphiles who refuse to acknowledge a simple truth, that islam isn't peace. I know that these guys are as welcome as the inquisition for normal muslims who only care aabout what's for dinner, looking away is kinda dumb
This approach to Islam is problematic imo, and this is why the premise of PFH's argument is a waste of everyone's time. You may be correct in assuming that Islam isn't peace even though by definition it is, but that doesn't make it the opposite either.

Islam is in the equation. It's not monolithic, not homogenous. So surely there is a problem with:

A. Islam in warzones
B. Islam in Europe
C. Islamic politics

PFH pinpointing the issue right down to Islam itself is a simplistic view equivalent to how an atheist would see someone using god to explain the universe. Ignorant and lazy. Presents more problems than solutions.

aka PFH and STFS are Statler and Waldorf, the old guys from the muppets.

[a completely inoffensive name]

My favorite Muppet has always been the Swedish Chef.

[Fragony]

This approach to Islam is problematic imo, and this is why the premise of PFH's argument is a waste of everyone's time. You may be correct in assuming that Islam isn't peace even though by definition it is, but that doesn't make it the opposite either.

Islam is in the equation. It's not monolithic, not homogenous. So surely there is a problem with:

A. Islam in warzones
B. Islam in Europe
C. Islamic politics

PFH pinpointing the issue right down to Islam itself is a simplistic view equivalent to how an atheist would see someone using god to explain the universe. Ignorant and lazy. Presents more problems than solutions.

aka PFH and STFS are Statler and Waldorf, the old guys from the muppets.

I know things aren't simple. Problem is that the multicultural left and offended muslims wants it to be simple, as a whole they accept no uncomfortable truths, and activily fascilitate the rougher edges with the circle-reasoning of an F5 tornado, everything you say is wrong, HARSH critisism is much more constructive, much more than pointing out it's complicated, I know it is complicated.

[Gilrandir]

"So much pathos! When I had expessed a similar one two years ago I was blamed as being too emotionally invested. Perhaps you suggest there should be another march which will show to the world that the French are... what will it show, by the way, and what has the CH one shown?" :laugh4: I was waiting for this... I am not disappointed.:2thumbsup:

If you can't find the answer, sorry, I can't fill your emptiness.

I have found the answer, but you may not like it.

Two years ago I could have posted videos and pictures of thousands of weeping people on Maidan holding candles in their hands and coffins with the fallen on their shoulders. I could have played you the heart-rending song "A duckling is floating" which has turned into a dirge since then and I can't hear it without tears starting in my eyes. But I didn't, knowing the reaction of the likes of you who would have said (as they did when I expressed my emotions): "Those are Nazis. Serve them right" and you pronounced my diagnosis - nationalistic blindness. Well, if I have one, then now I must say we are sharing the same malady.

You speak about France as a shining beacon of democracy, the last stronghold, the Minas Tirith of our times, that protects Franternite, Liberte and yadda-yadda and those are the only reasons the terrorists who are jealous in their hatred of those tenets aimed their venom at it.

This nationalistic babble doesn't give an answer to one simple question: why France? Is democracy worse in Austria or Finland? Are Fraternite and Liberte upheld less in Denmark, Lichtenstein, Great Britain or the Netherlands? If not, then why it happened in France?

The answer is the fact that you referred to: France has the largest Muslim population in Europe. France nurtured a whole generation of citizens who are easily swayed by radicals and are ready to kill THEIR COMPATRIOTS for some mythical ideas. But you want to sell us the picture of France that may have been true 50 years ago and is securely embedded into your consciousness (which you deem so immune to the influence of propaganda)? Wake up, that France is no more. Something is rotten, and this time not in the kingdom of Denmark.

But we didn't play a favorite game of yours: who benefits.

1. ISIS? Well, the atmosphere of panic and fear they wanted to cause will soon wear out, so it will only turn to their undoing and people will start to hate them more. But, frankly, when did they care? They will recklessly go on doing what they are, disregarding any strategies and adversaries.
2. Assad (backed by Russia)? Definitely yes. It is one more chance for him to say: "Hey, you do now know what ISIS is, don'tcha? And who is fighting it? Me! So stop discussing shortcomings of my regime and prop me up as Russia is doing".
3. Le Pen (financed by Russia)? Evidently yes. One more chance for her to say: "I told you so! Elect me and you will have no such nonsense from the filthy immigrants any more."
4. Putin (the president of Russia)? Three times yes. One more chance for him to say: "Forget the Crimea and Ukraine. Remember the glorious time of WWII when our grandfathers fought the Great Evil together. Back then the West wasn't too scrupulous about the Baltic states or Poland. Let's draw our swords together against the new scourge of our time and, please, lift off the sanctions, will ya?"

So it seems that the ultimate beneficiary is Putin. But what help can he render France and whole Europe, forsooth, when the latter have to fight the evil first of all WITHIN their domains where the seeds of terrorism seem to have taken roots and will bear fruit irrespective of the fact the motherplant is crushed elsewhere?



I agree that Europe has a problem with integration. But I wouldn't hold up North America as some kind of shining example. Our integration of immigrants works on a multi-generational schedule.

The USA's history has been the one of immigration, so its kind of inborn to have a knack in assimilating immigrants. But from the outset what those immigrants did was ousting the natives. Europe has a comparatively short history of admitting huge influxes of immigrants and the natives of Europe want anything but get ousted, so different purposes of Europe and the USA in regards to immigrants are obvious.


When was the last time France had an Englishman for Prime Minister?

:verycool:

Henry V?

[Fisherking]

You want to blame someone for the rise of militant Islam? Blame it on the US.

Blame it on Jimmy Carter. Carter wanted to replace the Shah of Iran. That worked well for him, huh? All those smart people couldn’t see that coming?
Then with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Carter sponsored and helped to give a religious focus to the mujahideen. Later it became the Taliban.

The early PLO and groups opposed to Israel were secular in nature but when a more effective weapon comes along, well.

America’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, where their political ineptitude could not have been better designed to create unrest and opposition.

We can skip over the Arab Spring, I mean no one could have dreamed religious fundamentalists would take over there, could they. But the Syrian uprising was also a part of that, openly supported by the US and calling for the ouster of that government with weapons and training provided to the rebels (only moderates of course).

Frustrated by public opposition to intervention in a Syrian Civil War, as well as strong Russian opposition, the US turned its attention to Ukraine, another brilliant piece of work. Then Surprise!, we have the appearance of IS. Bad Guys so evil they could be taken from a Hollywood script or a bad pulp novel.

Then, after years of war and a brief and ineffective American bombing campaign we suddenly have hundreds of thousands of refugees from most of the Islamic world (not just Syria) converging on Europe. But we are assured they are all peaceful and it is inhuman to turn them away. Of course for some reason no Islamic country will provide aid or shelter for them.

Then, this. Who could have predicted it. Paris of all places. Paris where Khomeini spent 14 years as a political exile, writing, developing his ideas, and teaching sharia law. Time Magazine’s 1979 Man of the Year.

How could French muslims ever have been radicalised.

[Gilrandir]

You want to blame someone for the rise of militant Islam? Blame it on the US.



Then we might as well blame Christopher Columbus since it was he who discovered America and thus triggered the chain of events that led to the Paris tragedy.

Instead my blame is on those who allowed and indeed supported the flow of cheap labor from Muslim countries to Europe and FAILED TO ASSIMILATE the newcomers.

[Slyspy]

Instead my blame is on those who allowed and indeed supported the flow of cheap labor from Muslim countries to Europe and FAILED TO ASSIMILATE the newcomers.

So you do in fact blame the victims of the atrocity for their own killings? Good man, nice to know.

There are two possible ways to react to this issue IMO. Taken at their extremes they are as follows:

1. Accept the odd atrocity because it is still better than sacrificing everything we are.
2. Machine gun the boats and start building the camps.

Which would you choose?

[Pannonian]

You want to blame someone for the rise of militant Islam? Blame it on the US.

Blame it on Jimmy Carter. Carter wanted to replace the Shah of Iran. That worked well for him, huh? All those smart people couldn’t see that coming?
Then with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Carter sponsored and helped to give a religious focus to the mujahideen. Later it became the Taliban.

The early PLO and groups opposed to Israel were secular in nature but when a more effective weapon comes along, well.

America’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, where their political ineptitude could not have been better designed to create unrest and opposition.

We can skip over the Arab Spring, I mean no one could have dreamed religious fundamentalists would take over there, could they. But the Syrian uprising was also a part of that, openly supported by the US and calling for the ouster of that government with weapons and training provided to the rebels (only moderates of course).

Frustrated by public opposition to intervention in a Syrian Civil War, as well as strong Russian opposition, the US turned its attention to Ukraine, another brilliant piece of work. Then Surprise!, we have the appearance of IS. Bad Guys so evil they could be taken from a Hollywood script or a bad pulp novel.

Then, after years of war and a brief and ineffective American bombing campaign we suddenly have hundreds of thousands of refugees from most of the Islamic world (not just Syria) converging on Europe. But we are assured they are all peaceful and it is inhuman to turn them away. Of course for some reason no Islamic country will provide aid or shelter for them.

Then, this. Who could have predicted it. Paris of all places. Paris where Khomeini spent 14 years as a political exile, writing, developing his ideas, and teaching sharia law. Time Magazine’s 1979 Man of the Year.

How could French muslims ever have been radicalised.

We can blame it on Carter, or any host of past actors in this unholy mess. But nothing of that sort will help solve the current problem, which goes beyond what people have done in the past. What's driving things now are what people are doing now. And the most immediate, most relevant driver of these idiots, in the UK at least, is the preachers radicalising the youth and the youths being radicalised. Cut that influence, by restricting who can preach here, and by keeping out those who've gone abroad to be radicalised, and you'll cut out a good chunk of radicalised homegrown terrorism. These idiots aren't the victims of western foreign policy abroad. They were raised here, with our tax money funding their upbringing.

[rory_20_uk]

So you do in fact blame the victims of the atrocity for their own killings? Good man, nice to know.

There are two possible ways to react to this issue IMO. Taken at their extremes they are as follows:

1. Accept the odd atrocity because it is still better than sacrificing everything we are.
2. Machine gun the boats and start building the camps.

Which would you choose?

Until extremely recently we outsourced the second option to our "Allies of convenience" - Gadaffi, Saddam and Assad who between them kept the lid on all this. We mainly spouted hot air and did nothing.

More recently we decided to think with our hearts and got rid of the "baddies". And lo and behold! Thousands if not millions of poor, generally poorly skilled people with extremely different cultural norms view the worst slums over here as much better than what they have over there.

And rather like the rules of war that were chosen by those who were a long way from bettlefields, the rules dealing with immigrants was written by those who started with the assumption that people would have the decency to not come over here so we could be all nice and free.

The birth rates of Africa isn't going down fast enough so even with the net emigration, diseases and wars the population is still going up. Same in Iraq and possibly the same in Syria. Until the countries where these people originate is nice enough that the trip isn't worth the bother they'll keep coming until here is nasty enough not to want to come.

There is no influx into the GCC as they might well machine gun the lot of them; similarly there is the lack of enthusiasm for Russia, or Iran.

Wherever restrictions are placed there will be many people who die just the other side of it due to buildup of people. Now they are in Europe so that is such a moral problem since we now see it on TV. Best we find new puppets to keep this nasty business where it belongs - somewhere else.

~:smoking:

[Pannonian]

Until extremely recently we outsourced the second option to our "Allies of convenience" - Gadaffi, Saddam and Assad who between them kept the lid on all this. We mainly spouted hot air and did nothing.

More recently we decided to think with our hearts and got rid of the "baddies". And lo and behold! Thousands if not millions of poor, generally poorly skilled people with extremely different cultural norms view the worst slums over here as much better than what they have over there.

And rather like the rules of war that were chosen by those who were a long way from bettlefields, the rules dealing with immigrants was written by those who started with the assumption that people would have the decency to not come over here so we could be all nice and free.

The birth rates of Africa isn't going down fast enough so even with the net emigration, diseases and wars the population is still going up. Same in Iraq and possibly the same in Syria. Until the countries where these people originate is nice enough that the trip isn't worth the bother they'll keep coming until here is nasty enough not to want to come.

There is no influx into the GCC as they might well machine gun the lot of them; similarly there is the lack of enthusiasm for Russia, or Iran.

Wherever restrictions are placed there will be many people who die just the other side of it due to buildup of people. Now they are in Europe so that is such a moral problem since we now see it on TV. Best we find new puppets to keep this nasty business where it belongs - somewhere else.

~:smoking:

I actually have some sympathy for those who find themselves displaced into Europe. It's the ones who were born and raised here yet turn against their home country whom I despise.

[Gilrandir]

So you do in fact blame the victims of the atrocity for their own killings? Good man, nice to know.


You misinterpret (intentionally or accidentally) what I said. Victims are the people of France, and they have my sympathy. My country has been having similar experience, it is just not that condensed, but rather protracted. Yet Ukraine too suffered from blown up buildings and railroads, peaceful demonstrations were attacked in the same way - and all of these far from the actual fighting zone. So by now we have learned well what is it to be under attack of terrorists (the ones that some people here stubbornly call rioting Russian-speaking populaces of oppressed Donbas). That is why my heart is with the victims and their relatives.

I blame powers-that-be and especially those that were responsible (in their time) for letting such a mass of immigrants in when it still could be prevented.



There are two possible ways to react to this issue IMO. Taken at their extremes they are as follows:

1. Accept the odd atrocity because it is still better than sacrificing everything we are.
2. Machine gun the boats and start building the camps.

Which would you choose?

Neither. But the atrocity is not likely to stay odd, it will happen more often once the terrorists see how easy it is. The boats with immigrants should be towed back to where they belong. Same with those who are now camped within the EU. Coast guard shouldn't allow any to land, and if they do - deport them back. Close the borders for any non-EUnians and fortify them against attempts to break through. If you choose to let the newcomers stay, make sure they are spread all over the country in far sundered places and not collected in one neighborhood all together. Own up to the fact that liberalism practised within the EU will not address the challenges from the outside.



Cut that influence, by restricting who can preach here, and by keeping out those who've gone abroad to be radicalised, and you'll cut out a good chunk of radicalised homegrown terrorism.

Do you think they will come for a permission to preach? Do you think (if they get this permission) they would disclose to you the real content of their messages? They will preach at secret meetings or at legal ones but in an unknown language, so you must be ready to start watching the Muslims (especially the youth) closely and introduce Arabic speaking censors at such meetings. That is if what you suggest is to be efficient.

[Kagemusha]

While i admit that any long term solution will be more then complicated to achieve in the area. For once we have an identified target, unlike with most terrorists.

ISIS has last today threatened that they are going to keep attacking everyone conducting air strikes against them including US and apparently these idiots think that they can scare the West with that.

If we have +30k of these lunatics in a geographically enclosed area. We should get rid of them as fast as possible, sending a message at the same time that attacking us will have its prize. After that we can work more on issues that are plaguing our own societies and try to get more lasting solutions to Middle East as well. I think joining ISIS will become lot less attractive, if it means mostly a certain death.

Hopefully the leaders of the world can set aside their differences concerning this and destroy these jihadist and not fall into apathy like many of us for example. Such apathy will just make these lunatics stronger.

[Pannonian]

Do you think they will come for a permission to preach? Do you think (if they get this permission) they would disclose to you the real content of their messages? They will preach at secret meetings or at legal ones but in an unknown language, so you must be ready to start watching the Muslims (especially the youth) closely and introduce Arabic speaking censors at such meetings. That is if what you suggest is to be efficient.

Yes, I think they will come to us asking for permission to preach, for they are foreigners with no right to abode here. Eg. the guy with a hook for a hand, who regularly preached hatred for Britain and the British. When he finally exhausted our patience and we deported him, he protested that he would be in danger back home, and only Britain offered a safe haven. Too bloody bad. We don't need his type here.

[Strike For The South]

You are very wrong about France's integration. U.S. isn't the leader in this, yes better then Australia but that is because we are borderline apartheid until the sixties.

You are talking about single cases of high born men reaching high rank in the military. You are not talking about the mass integration of millions of people from a different cultural group. It's worth pointing out both of your Steve Jobs were steeped in French culture from the time they were born.

If you think this is proof of a successfully integrated society, we may just have to agree to disagree. The same goes for all this dick measuring of high up governmental positions. 1 or 2 success stories does not translate to mass integration.


I tend to get mad at the mouthbreather crew on the right.

I can't seem to find the ones that aren't mouthbreathers on the internet, they go full retard anonymously.

Yea, you mad.

[Kagemusha]

Polands new foreign minister has made an interesting suggestion:

https://www.rt.com/news/322289-poland-refugee-army-syria/

He suggest that instead taking the able bodied young men seeking asylum as refugees. Why not turn them into a liberation army and ship them back?

[rory_20_uk]

I actually have some sympathy for those who find themselves displaced into Europe. It's the ones who were born and raised here yet turn against their home country whom I despise.

I think the opposite - one lot came here and made a choice. They want to be here, they should fit in and adapt to our rules and customs.

The others are descendants of those who did and therefore had no choice. Often they have been brought up to hate where they are and often have little if any ability to leave - now even trying in in essence a criminal offence and the last of them are still in Guantanamo as heading fromt he West so such countries means that they must be bad 'uns.

~:smoking:

[Pannonian]

I think the opposite - one lot came here and made a choice. They want to be here, they should fit in and adapt to our rules and customs.

The others are descendants of those who did and therefore had no choice. Often they have been brought up to hate where they are and often have little if any ability to leave - now even trying in in essence a criminal offence and the last of them are still in Guantanamo as heading fromt he West so such countries means that they must be bad 'uns.

~:smoking:

I disagree with keeping them here when they have no wish to be here. Everyone, except perhaps for the hellholes they're headed to, is better off with them bothering off and never returning.

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/uk-following-paris-attacks-muslims-get-together-in-bedford-meeting-to-struggle-for-an-islamic-state/

[Strike For The South]

Polands new foreign minister has made an interesting suggestion:

https://www.rt.com/news/322289-poland-refugee-army-syria/

He suggest that instead taking the able bodied young men seeking asylum as refugees. Why not turn them into a liberation army and ship them back?

They have a meal ticket, Their homeland is as good as gone to them.

[Kagemusha]

They have a meal ticket, Their homeland is as good as gone to them.

You sure seem to be the expert. For example my country evades about half of the asylum seekers. The problem is just we have already had seven times the number seeking asylum compared to last year, most from Syria and Iraq. Now, now what could be the reason for it??

But isnt it just lot more easy to lump all Europe as one blob. Sure makes things more easy. Can i ask you what do you think about the latin immigrants coming to US?

[Strike For The South]

You sure seem to be the expert. For example my country evades about half of the asylum seekers. The problem is just we have already had seven times the number seeking asylum compared to last year, most from Syria and Iraq. Now, now what could be the reason for it??
The reason is Merkel opened the borders and tried to give them out to the member countries one by one. These wars didn't just start, you silly goose.

But let me indulge the Polish mans fantasy.

First, let us assume we have the funding for such an endeavor. Let us just assume we have an unlimited money pie. First you have to get these guys up to a level of physical conditioning. To do properly, that will take about three months. Then you have to train in certain specialties at minimum three months. That's six months, who knows where we will be in 6 months.

The EU would also have to cooperate on this. The EU can not cooperate on a damn thing and now general enthusiasm for it is waning. I simply don't see the member states coming together to do anything, try as Merkel might to make them.

So let's assume we have the money, the patience, and the cooperation. It's a PR nightmare. Some effeminate urban faux intellectual will eventually come out of *his/her/insert pronoun here* drug induced hedonism to pen a few acerbic paragraphs about how the west is simply using these poor refugees as cannon fodder for whatever imperial goal of the week we currently have.

Whose command would they be under? The EU? American? NATO? Russian? It can't be the arabs, because if it's one thing an arab led army can do, it's lose a conventional war in a truly spectacular fashion. The continued exsistance of Israel is a testament to that. Our great and wonderful investment would be squandered by general staffs that make WWII Italy look competent.

Other than that, great plan.

And of course, this is assuming you have volunteers. Which you wont because Germany>Syria, thats why these people crossed 26 peaceful countries to get there.


But isnt it just lot more easy to lump all Europe as one blob. Sure makes things more easy. Can i ask you what do you think about the latin immigrants coming to US?
I have no problem with them, growing up in South Texas I am intimately familiar with them. On the whole they tend be hardworking folks who embrace America. I am proud to count them as citizens. Americas greatest strength lies in its immigrants eventually being brought in to in a anglophone cultural fold. I have never said anything different.

[Kagemusha]

The reason is Merkel opened the borders and tried to give them out to the member countries one by one. These wars didn't just start, you silly goose.

But let me indulge the Polish mans fantasy.

First, let us assume we have the funding for such an endeavor. Let us just assume we have an unlimited money pie. First you have to get these guys up to a level of physical conditioning. To do properly, that will take about three months. Then you have to train in certain specialties at minimum three months. That's six months, who knows where we will be in 6 months.

The EU would also have to cooperate on this. The EU can not cooperate on a damn thing and now general enthusiasm for the it is waning. I simply don't see the member states coming together to do anything, try as Merkel might to make them.

So let's assume we have the money, the patience, and the cooperation. It's a PR nightmare. Some effeminate urban faux intellectual will eventually come out of *his/her/insert pronoun here* drug induced hedonism to pen a few acerbic paragraphs about how the west is simply using these poor refugees as cannon fodder for whatever imperial goal of the week we currently have.

Whose command would they be under? The EU? American? NATO? Russian? It can't be the arabs, because if it's one thing an arab led army can do, it's lose a conventional war in a truly spectacular fashion. The continued exsistance of Israel is a testament to that. Our great and wonderful investment would be squandered by general staffs that make WWII Italy look competent.

Other than that, great plan.

And of course, this is assuming you have volunteers. Which you wont because Germany>Syria, thats why these people crossed 26 peaceful countries to get there.


I have no problem with them, growing up in South Texas I am intimately familiar with them. On the whole they tend be hardworking folks who embrace America. I am proud to count them as citizens. Americas greatest strength lies in its immigrants eventually being brought in to in a anglophone cultural fold. I have never said anything different.

Once again you create nice little scenarios in your small head, but the problem is that you lack any knowledge of the facts to base those scenarios.

Our Asylum seekers come mostly from Russia and Sweden, which allows them to pass against the Schengen deal. So it doesnt have anything to do with Merkel.

Secondly here in Northern and Eastern Europe we already have institutions for giving military training to large number of people annually, which we do. Unlike in your country where few hired service men protect the civilian population who could not protect their lunch box if their life depended on it.

The deploying surely is a problem as long as US keeps supporting Wahhabist countries like Saudi Arabia. I dont think they would like if some sort of peace would actually happen in Syria, unless of course under regime similar to Isis or Al Qaida.

[Montmorency]

because if it's one thing an arab led army can do, it's lose a conventional war in a truly spectacular fashion. The continued exsistance of Israel is a testament to that.

This is a somewhat-mistaken preconception. Israel as a geographical and political entity cannot ever be destroyed by any one of its neighbors, and even in combination the level of coordination required given the geographic and institutional boundaries would give even NATO trouble - and this kind of concerted effort would become common knowledge to the world long before the time to strike could arrive. The Yom Kippur war is testament to just how difficult it is. Syria and Iraq vaguely timed military incursions around the same week, merely with the goal of (re)taking strategic terrain in the Golan Heights and the Sinai. Syria was defeated handily, but Egypt at least got as far as the other side of the Suez Canal. This, in other words, was the "debacle" that embarrassed Israel, raised tensions between blocs, and precipitated a land swap favorable to Egypt under the condition that they become a de-facto ally of Israel. That is the worst it ever got for Israel as an established state. The existence of Israel says as much about the Arab militaries as the neutrality of Switzerland says about the Nazi German military.

Finally, consider that Israel's neighbors find it useful as a buffer between each other. Indeed, the only way that Israel could be militarily overrun by anything in the region (given the further assumption that the US and EU have no involvement whatsoever) is if Turkey, Iran, and Egypt were to explicitly organize a Muslim coalition over an extended period of time, developing joint command, communication infrastructure, and logistical and intelligence harmonization such that they would be prepared to sustain massive casualties over many weeks to ensure that entrenched Israeli positions could be overcome with brute force, allowing the forces to break through and reach the major cities of the coast and the center. And then, of course, they have to accomplish a thing that modernity has not had the opportunity to witness the circumstances for: break apart the rump resistance in the hilly Galilee, including fanatical guerrillas and desperate militias.

[Strike For The South]

Once again you create nice little scenarios in your small head, but the problem is that you lack any knowledge of the facts to base those scenarios.

OK


Our Asylum seekers come mostly from Russia and Sweden, which allows them to pass against the Schengen deal. So it doesnt have anything to do with Merkel.

Oh silly me, thinking when you reference asylum seekers in this thread, you mean those from the middle east. Is this supposed to be on of those gotcha moments? Do you really think you have backed me into some sort of corner?


Secondly here in Northern and Eastern Europe we already have institutions for giving military training to large number of people annually, which we do. Unlike in your country where few hired service men protect the civilian population who could not protect their lunch box if their life depended on it.
Training still costs money and time.

If by few hired service men you mean all volunteer force pulled from the citizenry, then yes you are correct. All able bodied American men can be called up in a state of emergency anyway. The conscript armies of Europe rely on American muscle and have since NATO became a thing. I realize Finland is not part of NATO but a Russian attack on Finland (the only real reason Finland would mobilize ever) would effectively trigger the same response.

You also conveniently forget that Europeans are required to do this as a citizen. Are we going to force the refugees to fight for us now? How wonderfully 19th century.

If the best thing you can sling at me is "hurr durr Americans can't protect the food they love so much" than I think we are done discussing anything of merit. You can crawl back inside your bottle and hope your friends don't kill themselves because you people wont see the sun for the next six months.


The deploying surely is a problem as long as US keeps supporting Wahhabist countries like Saudi Arabia. I dont think they would like if some sort of peace would actually happen in Syria, unless of course under regime similar to Isis or Al Qaida.

What are you talking about? Deploying is a problem because I don't want to see anymore Western lives lost but we can't trust this investment to a home grown general staff. The Saudis and a peaceful Syria have co-exsisted before, it can happen again.

[Montmorency]

Typo: In the previous post where it was stated, "Syria and Iraq" it should have read, "Syria and Egypt"

[Strike For The South]

This is a somewhat-mistaken preconception. Israel as a geographical and political entity cannot ever be destroyed by any one of its neighbors, and even in combination the level of coordination required given the geographic and institutional boundaries would give even NATO trouble - and this kind of concerted effort would become common knowledge to the world long before the time to strike could arrive. The Yom Kippur war is testament to just how difficult it is. Syria and Iraq vaguely timed military incursions around the same week, merely with the goal of (re)taking strategic terrain in the Golan Heights and the Sinai. Syria was defeated handily, but Egypt at least got as far as the other side of the Suez Canal. This, in other words, was the "debacle" that embarrassed Israel, raised tensions between blocs, and precipitated a land swap favorable to Egypt under the condition that they become a de-facto ally of Israel. That is the worst it ever got for Israel as an established state. The existence of Israel says as much about the Arab militaries as the neutrality of Switzerland says about the Nazi German military.

The Germans never made any concerted effort to genocide the Swiss. It's worth remembering that the Swiss allowed their railways and banks to be used by the Germans. I don't like your analogy.


Finally, consider that Israel's neighbors find it useful as a buffer between each other. Indeed, the only way that Israel could be militarily overrun by anything in the region (given the further assumption that the US and EU have no involvement whatsoever) is if Turkey, Iran, and Egypt were to explicitly organize a Muslim coalition over an extended period of time, developing joint command, communication infrastructure, and logistical and intelligence harmonization such that they would be prepared to sustain massive casualties over many weeks to ensure that entrenched Israeli positions could be overcome with brute force, allowing the forces to break through and reach the major cities of the coast and the center. And then, of course, they have to accomplish a thing that modernity has not had the opportunity to witness the circumstances for: break apart the rump resistance in the hilly Galilee, including fanatical guerrillas and desperate militias.

Isreal is only one example.
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

I also encourage you to pick up "Arabs at war" by Pollack, does a much better job than that shorthand article.

[Kagemusha]

OK


Oh silly me, thinking when you reference asylum seekers in this thread, you mean those from the middle east. Is this supposed to be on of those gotcha moments? Do you really think you have backed me into some sort of corner?


Training still costs money and time.

If by few hired service men you mean all volunteer force pulled from the citizenry, then yes you are correct. All able bodied American men can be called up in a state of emergency anyway. The conscript armies of Europe rely on American muscle and have since NATO became a thing. I realize Finland is not part of NATO but a Russian attack on Finland (the only real reason Finland would mobilize ever) would effectively trigger the same response.

You also conveniently forget that Europeans are required to do this as a citizen. Are we going to force the refugees to fight for us now? How wonderfully 19th century.

If the best thing you can sling at me is "hurr durr Americans can't protect the food they love so much" than I think we are done discussing anything of merit. You can crawl back inside your bottle and hope your friends don't kill themselves because you people wont see the sun for the next six months.



What are you talking about? Deploying is a problem because I don't want to see anymore Western lives lost but we can't trust this investment to a home grown general staff. The Saudis and a peaceful Syria have co-exsisted before, it can happen again.

You know upkeep in refugee centers cost also time and money. What i mean with deployment problem is that your Saudi friends are supporting the lunatics in Iraq and Syria first place and your politics are large reason this whole mess got started, while your twisted alliances are one key reason why it is so hard to dismantle.

But sorry i forget im talking with all knowing Texan here, who speaks with unlimited knowledge. This just shows that you have nothing else to add rather then trolling. I could tell you where to crawl, but you silly little man with your superiority complex aint worth it.

[Strike For The South]

You know upkeep in refugee centers cost also time and money.
And look how swimmingly thats going!


What i mean with deployment problem is that your Saudi friends are supporting the lunatics in Iraq and Syria first place and your politics are large reason this whole mess got started, whil,e your twisted alliances are one key reason why it is so hard to dismantle.

Right but the fails to address how we train, feed, deploy, and lead this refugee army beyond "well we can't use the Saudis".


But sorry i forget im talking with all knowing Texan here, who speaks with unlimited knowledge. This just shows that you have nothing else to add rather then trolling. I could tell you where to crawl, but you silly little man with your superiority complex aint worth it.

It's been nice talking to you.

[Montmorency]

The Germans never made any concerted effort to genocide the Swiss.

Well, yes, that's the point.


It's worth remembering that the Swiss allowed their railways and banks to be used by the Germans. I don't like your analogy.

Their biggest geographic advantage is also their biggest disadvantage. Even so, troops and war materiel did not pass along those railways in any quantity.

Israel is in an even better position, as where it is not surrounded by desert or mountain, it borders water.

[AE Bravo]

Bush was a Texan too. He's probably getting paintings of himself done and smoking cigars with Bandar in the mansion instead of lifting a finger for this mess.

Texans gonna Texan.

[Viking]

Justice and speaking your mind become harder under an autocracy which is seemingly the only thing that works in the region.

The last years have told us that authoritarianism there have no guarantees that it works. One by one such governments toppled over or faced open revolt, like falling dominoes.

Maybe North Korea is an example of a magic authoritarian brew that can remain stable over time, but I doubt it.

[Montmorency]

The authoritarianism does work, as it always has in these sorts of regions, but the problem we see is that 'the tree of tyranny must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of regimes'.

[Strike For The South]

Bush was a Texan too. He's probably getting paintings of himself done and smoking cigars with Bandar in the mansion instead of lifting a finger for this mess.

Texans gonna Texan.

Bush is not a Texan :)

[Husar]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12243245_466570493545061_4800208867029313704_n.jpg?oh=9182dcc08265b0ab3a87700b71200f70&oe=56B56926&__gda__=1454416509_a59d493c2289080b12cbfb17875fb2df

[Viking]

The authoritarianism does work, as it always has in these sorts of regions, but the problem we see is that 'the tree of tyranny must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of regimes'.

Which, as far as consistent stability is concerned, is the same as saying that these types of governments do not work.

[AE Bravo]

So lemme get this straight. French intelligence put algerian guy under surveillance in his trips to turkey and syria but didnt question him when he came back to paris?

misdirected hatred at its finest.

[Kagemusha]

It's been nice talking to you.

No, cant really say the same but educating nevertheless.

[Strike For The South]

No, cant really say the same but educating nevertheless.

The best teaching moments come when one realizes he was wrong. Glad you have grown.

[Kagemusha]

The best teaching moments come when one realizes he was wrong. Glad you have grown.

Maybe one day you will learn that lesson as well. Maybe then talking with you becomes nice.

[Strike For The South]

Maybe one day you will learn that lesson as well. Maybe then talking with you becomes nice.

Talking with me is nice if you don't take it personally.

I know you know arming the refugees is a fools errand. I am sure you know, I know that the west is not completely blameless in why things are the way that they are. I don't wake up every morning and bask in the reality that the US is in bed with some bad people who basically enslave their own countymen, quite frankly it makes me retch. I also sympathize with your feelings about the death that seemingly surrounds us. It is not something I want or enjoy or even think is necessary.

But I will not be cowtowed and told to look inward when these attacks happen. The West did not beat fascism and Communism to be taken down by a bunch of religious flunkies. I will not be told the west needs to give in because of some nebulous concept of fault. I don't really know what else to say.

[AE Bravo]

Predictable. So place a stigma on islam like fascism and communism. Amateur securitization.

[Strike For The South]

Predictable. So place a stigma on islam like fascism and communism. Amateur securitization.

The stigma is not on Islam per se but the seeming tacit approval most of the muslim world gives when one of these attacks happen. The stigma is against the people who would like replace the wests value system with their own, all the while enjoying what it brings them.

[Montmorency]

Which, as far as consistent stability is concerned, is the same as saying that these types of governments do not work.

In that case we could go further and point out that no types of government work as far as consistent stability is concerned.

[AE Bravo]

The stigma is not on Islam per se but the seeming tacit approval most of the muslim world gives when one of these attacks happen.
What is this based on? Just show me. I want to know.

The thing about demonization of an entire people is that it works for nobody but yourself. Why would I applaud or show "tacit" approval of anyone that is damaging the reputation of my faith and the main component of my community's regression?

Then again this is probably going nowhere.

[Husar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2JzJAdIfkw

[AE Bravo]

He must be a member here.

[Fisherking]

Thoughts?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11996879/Islams-civil-war-between-medievalists-and-modernisers.html

[AE Bravo]

The comments in that article summarize this thread perfectly.

I even spotted the Montmorency theory of mass killing somewhere in there. Very realist.

[Strike For The South]

What is this based on? Just show me. I want to know.

The thing about demonization of an entire people is that it works for nobody but yourself. Why would I applaud or show "tacit" approval of anyone that is damaging the reputation of my faith and the main component of my community's regression?

Then again this is probably going nowhere.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/09/04/myth-tiny-radical-minority/

The pew numbers from Feburary show that support for suicide bombings and/or violence in places like Jordan and Pakistan only went down after those places themselves have come under heavy attack from terrorists . Which is only human nature, I suppose.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/05/extremism-in-muslim-nations/

Beyond that, the same Westerners who are demanding their countries import refugees en masse (with no real plan for the long term) have social views that are wildly opposed by these muslims. Rights for women, rights for homosexuals, rights for transgenders, are all very much opposed by these people.

For the most part muslims shun or disdain social engagement in Western countries. As I have touched on before that is partially the fault of Western countries themselves. Most notably France whose idea of integration is basically force feeding muslim children pork, not the way I would try to integrate my immigrants.

Coloring all of this is economic malaise. A young man without a job, without a girlfriend, and no prospects is dangerous no matter what his color or creed. I feel bad for these young guys who feel like strangers in the countries in which they were born. I'm sure both of us could bring up hundreds of examples of young men from places like Bradford and Marseilles who left their countries to join ISIS looking for purpose.

The only problem is they end up hating ISIS and want to go back to England and France. They left feeling like foreigners and when they joined the group they thought would welcome them, they still felt like foreigners. It can't be easy, operating in that kind of social no mans land.

I simply don't think large scale importation of Islam works in Western countries. The values are too far apart. This is not a judgement on either belief, just a simple thought that they don't mesh well together.

[AE Bravo]

Not clicking breitbart.

5% of Jordan are Iraqis. 3,240,000 are Palestinians. The latter are Muslims who a few decades ago went to war with the Jordanian monarchy for not fighting Israel.

The most positive rating for al Qaeda was in the Palestinian territories, where 25% had a favorable view of the terrorist organization.
AQ, the main outspoken defender of Palestinian rights not too long ago. Palestinians are living under apartheid. It's not surprising they are hostile. Evidently this doesn't really bother most Muslim states.

Do you any info on the sentiments of Muslims who haven't been subjugated by a Zionist western outpost or AQ-influenced in the case of Pakistan?

have social views that are wildly opposed by these muslims. Rights for women, rights for homosexuals, rights for transgenders, are all very much opposed by these people.
How many cases of homosexuals or transgender murdered by Muslims? If the United States is excelling here, surely the EU needs to bump up its incompetent security sector or stop biting off more than it can chew.

For the most part muslims shun or disdain social engagement in Western countries.
Bold statement. How in the world can anyone from the United States think this...

[Strike For The South]

Not clicking breitbart.
5% of Jordan are Iraqis. 3,240,000 are Palestinians. The latter are Muslims who a few decades ago went to war with the Jordanian monarchy for not fighting Israel.

AQ, the main outspoken defender of Palestinian rights not too long ago. Palestinians are living under apartheid. It's not surprising they are hostile. Evidently this doesn't really bother most Muslim states.

We are going to disagree on Israel, we can save that for another thread.


How many cases of homosexuals or transgender murdered by Muslims? If the United States is excelling here, surely the EU needs to bump up its incompetent security sector or stop biting off more than it can chew.

You can be honest, you know most mulims oppose these things. That is fine, a man is entitiled to his opinion. It is simply not the way the west is trending.


Bold statement. How in the world can anyone from the United States think this...

Integration in Europe is deteriorating and its the fault of both parties.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LOL yeah I’m sure people have it rough in Texas. Their school textbooks are wonderful, I’m sure they get time in prison for speaking out too.

It’s funny because some of them actually think they have it rough. How cute.

Poverty, malnourishment, crime, lack of access to medical care - gun crime. Some people in Texas do have it rough, to say nothing of the inbreeding. I shouldn't cast stones over the last bit though - given the missing members of my own family tree.


So basically you would’ve preferred to have this mess sooner rather than later.

It was a tragedy before we got involved, it might not have been quite as bad if we had got involved earlier. Heavy fighting has swept most of Syria at this point. It's possible that we could have contained the conflict, geographically. At the very least we would already have been there when IS reared up and they would not have had the successes they have if they had been subjected to the wrath of the Sons of Valhalla from the beginning.


Apparently not. Picking a side will always lead to Islamist hydra. De-Baathification of the Iraqi army was the icing on the cake, you should’ve kept the high-morale secular armies while they were here instead of running them off to terrorist orgs and replacing them with head-drilling Shia militias who have had the time of their lives collecting the heads of your soldiers/American marines.

If you believe this then you're part of the problem. I'm certain not all Muslims believe this, unless all Muslims are liars.


You either help like a responsible world power as China is doing in Africa or Russia is currently doing in collaboration with a legitimate incumbent - or you leave.

I blame certain countries for allowing US, British, and French military bases instead of Russian ones. GTFO for god's sake and quit crying about immigration, we lose thousands over here your speaking one breath.

That's incredibly naive. We aren't saints but we'll still be interested in helping you after all your oil is gone, we'll probably be even nicer than we are now. Russia and China will drop you like a lump of lead - these are the countries that start wars against friendly nations for land and/or resources and then lie about it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

but we'll still be interested in helping you after all your oil is gone,

I'm not.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thoughts?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11996879/Islams-civil-war-between-medievalists-and-modernisers.html

Diagnosing the problem is not hard - I did it years ago - but finding a workable solution is. I continue to believe that the solution is increasing the economic outlook in Muslim countries for everyone, not just the princes, and toppling the most brutal of the dictators when they cross the line and start openly killing their own subjects.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Diagnosing the problem is not hard - I did it years ago - but finding a workable solution is. I continue to believe that the solution is increasing the economic outlook in Muslim countries for everyone, not just the princes, and toppling the most brutal of the dictators when they cross the line and start openly killing their own subjects.


Toppling the dictators is literally why we have the current situation. I have no idea where you were during the Blair years, but apparently you refuse to acknowledge that Saddam, Gaddafi, and Assad were able to prevent radical Islamists from rising in their own lands. Without them, we have the current situation.

[Tuuvi]

Toppling the dictators is literally why we have the current situation. I have no idea where you were during the Blair years, but apparently you refuse to acknowledge that Saddam, Gaddafi, and Assad were able to prevent radical Islamists from rising in their own lands. Without them, we have the current situation.

I don't agree with PFH on the need to remove Middle Eastern dictators and I think it's chauvinistic to believe the ME's problems are our responsibility, but Assad is still in power and his regime wasn't able to stop the rise of jihadist factions like Al-Nusra in Syria, If anything the Assad regime just made things worse by firing on unarmed protesters and sparking the civil war. Portions of Yemen have also been taken over by Al-Qaeda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Civil_War_(2015)) and the Yemeni government is backed by the US.

[a completely inoffensive name]

From my recollection, we armed Syrian rebels to undermine Assad, and Iran has been doing the same to us in Yemen. Also, the Syrian civil war was in large part driven by climate change causing a devastating drought from 2006 to 2009. You can't say that Assad screwed everything up by itself.

[AE Bravo]

You can be honest, you know most mulims oppose these things. That is fine, a man is entitiled to his opinion. It is simply not the way the west is trending.
But it looks like it’s working out fine on that end. Not a problem to the extent that there can be no middle ground. Yes, it’s not Islamic. Who says they can’t coexist? US broke this barrier, Turkey sort of, and believe it or not the Gulf (locals and Filipinos mostly). Muslims aren’t alien to homosexuality. I don't see Russia getting this much flak.

Integration in Europe is deteriorating and its the fault of both parties.
That's all there is to say about it really.

It was a tragedy before we got involved
Yeah I bet everything is a tragedy when you're at the beacon of civilization. Please. Things were fine before you came along.

If you believe this then you're part of the problem. I'm certain not all Muslims believe this, unless all Muslims are liars.
The fact that you can't grasp this is proof of your total ignorance of these places. Shia and Sunni brothers in arms broken apart by a clueless governor who bent over to Iranian hegemony. The Persia-ification of Iraq. Arrogant power after arrogant power, only Iranians are much smarter than all the west combined.

We aren't saints but we'll still be interested in helping you after all your oil is gone, we'll probably be even nicer than we are now.
Bullshit. http://www.ecfr.eu/page/-/Responding_to_an_assertive_Gulf.pdf

I can see it now.

Arabs: "So remember when we bailed you out that time?"
Europe: "Fix your human rights issues, chump"

Never gets old. Oh and I can see China dropping Africa like a "lump of lead."

If anything the Assad regime just made things worse by firing on unarmed protesters and sparking the civil war.
After Islamists were armed by about 40 countries and planted shooters in between the crowds. Opposition in the Arab world is dirty dirty dirty.

[AE Bravo]

Also, the Syrian civil war was in large part driven by climate change causing a devastating drought from 2006 to 2009. You can't say that Assad screwed everything up by itself.
Hi Bernie.

Goodbye Bernie.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Hi Bernie.

Goodbye Bernie.
You can't even put forth a counter argument. I third the notion that you bring nothing to the discussion.

[AE Bravo]

That argument doesn't warrant a counterargument. You're the one that needs to elaborate on the correlation between climate change and political dissidence in Syria.

Why don't you look up the history of droughts in Syria before hopping on bandwagons.

[a completely inoffensive name]

That argument doesn't warrant a counterargument. You're the one that needs to elaborate on the correlation between climate change and political dissidence in Syria.

Why don't you look up the history of droughts in Syria before hopping on bandwagons.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/03/150302-syria-war-climate-change-drought/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26943503

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/is-a-lack-of-water-to-blame-for-the-conflict-in-syria-72513729/?no-ist

http://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/302350743/drought-could-complicate-already-difficult-food-crisis-in-syria

It's been talked about way before Bernie had a spotlight. Why don't you go and pick flowers while they still grow.

EDIT: Sorry Hooahguy, I tried.

[Montmorency]

It should go without saying that climate disruptions (from a human perspective) are one of the primary underlying causes for "political dissidence".

North Africa and the Middle East have everything going against them as it regards social stability, though in fact that's true for most places, as for example borne out by the perennially-anxious governments of Russia and China.

The West has pretty good lands.

[Fragony]

Don't need good lands, the Netherlands is among the biggest food exporters in the world and it's a tiny country. Really advanced greenhouses aren't out of reach for these regions you just have to invest in them.

[Gilrandir]

If we have +30k of these lunatics in a geographically enclosed area.

Your data are outdated (forgive my pun). Russia claims that its bombers have destroyed 500 military infrastructure objects of ISIS. If we consider that half of the 30k ISIS fighters (15k) are in Syria and that each of the objects was guarded by at least a platoon (30 men), then 500*30= 15 000. Syria is free from ISIS (according to the Kremlin).


Yes, I think they will come to us asking for permission to preach, for they are foreigners with no right to abode here.

I'm not sure they must do it. They can cross the Channel from elsewhere as if on business of their own (can you figure out the preachers among them?), then come to the mosque and start their preaching. Alternatively, they can preach at secret meetings without any license. And, finally, who told you that they are all FOREIGNERS? I'm sure by now there are some UK citizens who can do this (consider France and Belgium as an example).



Secondly here in Northern and Eastern Europe we already have institutions for giving military training to large number of people annually, which we do. Unlike in your country where few hired service men protect the civilian population who could not protect their lunch box if their life depended on it.

The deploying surely is a problem as long as US keeps supporting Wahhabist countries like Saudi Arabia.

I'm surprised to hear such a discussion from people who have an experience of playing TW games. Such people ought to know that one of the most important factors in battles is morale. So the crucial issue about these recruits is how high their morale is likely to be.

[Kagemusha]

EU has unanimously enacted article 42.7 concerning mutual assistance if one participating country is attacked, after French request. This is the first time the article has been enacted in the history of EU.

http://www.france24.com/en/20151117-eu-unanimously-supports-france-assistance-request

[Pannonian]

I'm not sure they must do it. They can cross the Channel from elsewhere as if on business of their own (can you figure out the preachers among them?), then come to the mosque and start their preaching. Alternatively, they can preach at secret meetings without any license. And, finally, who told you that they are all FOREIGNERS? I'm sure by now there are some UK citizens who can do this (consider France and Belgium as an example).


It's a fairly common complaint amongst homegrown preachers, who tend to be moderate and not very numerous, that foreign firebreathers are imported to preach their brand of hatred. Those who are radicalised tend to travel to Pakistan or other known radicalisation hotbeds to complete their "education". The process is fairly well known. Looking at the Paris attackers, it seems Syria was where they completed their "education", prior to returning to France to do their stuff.

[Fragony]

EU has unanimously enacted article 42.7 concerning mutual assistance if one participating country is attacked, after French request. This is the first time the article has been enacted in the history of EU.

http://www.france24.com/en/20151117-eu-unanimously-supports-france-assistance-request

That's a nice way to sneak in something on top of what already exists but fails, I am sure it sounds reasonable. The answer to the failling of the EU is always the same, more EU. Merkel lead the way, wir schaffen das. Dumb plumb eastblock farmhorese, wir schaffen das nicht, go to a cloister and have a messias-complex there kthxbye

[Kagemusha]

That's a nice way to sneak in something on top of what already exists but fails, I am sure it sounds reasonable. The answer to the failling of the EU is always the same, more EU. Merkel lead the way, wir schaffen das. Dumb plumb eastblock farmhorese, wir schaffen das nicht, go to a cloister and have a messias-complex there kthxbye

I dont know why France is not calling the invocation of NATO article 5, but enacting this one. This could be nothing, too early to say.

[Fragony]

I dont know why France is not calling the invocation of NATO article 5, but enacting this one. This could be nothing, too early to say.

I already know what's going to happen. Law-enforcers from the east are going to be situated in the west and vica-versa, the only thing the EU wants is more EU

[Kagemusha]

Russia has just struck ISIS at Raqqa with long range bombers and cruise missiles from Mediterranean. Apparently this time they have notified US and France of their intentions.

https://www.rt.com/news/322413-russia-missiles-raqqa-mediterranean/

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah I bet everything is a tragedy when you're at the beacon of civilization. Please. Things were fine before you came along.

Your assumption that we don't care because we aren't constantly wringing our hands is faulty.

You missed all the arguments about this a few years ago - at this point it's like watching a car crash repeatedly in very slow motions. As terrible as it is there's no point constantly saying "oh woe, oh that the world was kinder to man".


The fact that you can't grasp this is proof of your total ignorance of these places. Shia and Sunni brothers in arms broken apart by a clueless governor who bent over to Iranian hegemony. The Persia-ification of Iraq. Arrogant power after arrogant power, only Iranians are much smarter than all the west combined.

So Arabs hate all non Arabs? Your argument here is, at best, confused.


Bullshit. http://www.ecfr.eu/page/-/Responding_to_an_assertive_Gulf.pdf

I can see it now.

Arabs: "So remember when we bailed you out that time?"
Europe: "Fix your human rights issues, chump"

Never gets old. Oh and I can see China dropping Africa like a "lump of lead."

Errr.

Yes, fix your human rights issues - we'll be happy to help.

Of course, you'd rather continue to live the good life using Indians as slave labour and Texans to drill your oil - if you have any mines I assume you use the Cornish to dig those.

China will drop Africa as soon as Africa has nothing to offer in materials, they are really only developing Africa's infrastructure to extract those materials, the average African miner isn't better off - he might be worse off because the mines are taking bigger and bigger risks.

Russia started TWO wars with Ukraine using proxies just because of paranoia and China is worse, they lock people up and send them to forced labour camps just for having an unsanctioned religion. China itself is a mess, anyway, there are numerous examples of poorly built Chinese infrastructure breaking down and people dying.

[Greyblades]

China itself is a mess, anyway, there are numerous examples of poorly built Chinese infrastructure breaking down and people dying.

Their products aren't that much better; Chinese swivel chairs occasionally explode when sat on.

I'm not even joking, the elevation mechanism under the seat uses trapped air to maintain height and with domestic Chinese quality control being what it is the seals are known to fail at high pressure. The lucky ones just lose a chair, occasionally they fail in such a way that metal is driven upwards through the seat.

[Husar]

Not to forget the iPhones, couldn't think of a bigger failure of a product. Several people have already died trying to take selfies with them, horrible safety record.

[Pannonian]

Not to forget the iPhones, couldn't think of a bigger failure of a product. Several people have already died trying to take selfies with them, horrible safety record.

If you're arguing that China has perfectly adequate quality control regulations, then I think the Chinese themselves would disagree with you.

[Husar]

If you're arguing that China has perfectly adequate quality control regulations, then I think the Chinese themselves would disagree with you.

When I told this Chinese girl that Germans deem Chinese goods to be of inferior quality, she seemed offended.
As for what I mean, I'm not sure, maybe I just like anecdotal evidence or exploding accumulators...

In other news: Politics, politics never change...
http://www.theonion.com/multiblogpost/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-regio-11534

[Pannonian]

When I told this Chinese girl that Germans deem Chinese goods to be of inferior quality, she seemed offended.
As for what I mean, I'm not sure, maybe I just like anecdotal evidence or exploding accumulators...

In other news: Politics, politics never change...
http://www.theonion.com/multiblogpost/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-regio-11534

See the milk powder scandal. After that, those Chinese who could afford it no longer trusted products made in China, preferring instead to buy from Hong Kong (with its British-established regulations). This led to a shortage of said product in Hong Kong for resident Hong Kongers, adding to the ill will between the territory and the mainland. Generally, Chinese who can afford it prefer Hong Kong-made products because of its tighter and reliable regulations.

[Strike For The South]

But it looks like it’s working out fine on that end. Not a problem to the extent that there can be no middle ground. Yes, it’s not Islamic. Who says they can’t coexist? US broke this barrier, Turkey sort of, and believe it or not the Gulf (locals and Filipinos mostly). Muslims aren’t alien to homosexuality. I don't see Russia getting this much flak.
.

Because we aren't talking about Russia?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Football stadium in Hanover has been evacuated due to suspicions that a terrorist attack in the city was imminent.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/17/paris-terror-attacks-french-police-launch-fresh-raids-overnight-live#block-564b8952e4b0e98c91b0d316

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not to forget the iPhones, couldn't think of a bigger failure of a product. Several people have already died trying to take selfies with them, horrible safety record.

The Chinese are capable of building things to a high standard but they won't bother if they can get away with it.

Just like they can be nice and helpful, but won't bother if they can get away with it.


Football stadium in Hanover has been evacuated due to suspicions that a terrorist attack in the city was imminent.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/17/paris-terror-attacks-french-police-launch-fresh-raids-overnight-live#block-564b8952e4b0e98c91b0d316

Yesterday they evacuated the shopping centre in my little city. I get the sense we're in much more danger than we realise, save that we are usually saved by the security services. Obviously someone dropped the ball over Paris.

[AE Bravo]

The drought angle makes it look like opposition was inspired by this but Arab countries have begun importing water long ago, this is inevitable. What did we expect cutting off Syria and strip it of its opportunity to at least do something about it like the rest of the ME?
Shifting responsibility.

So Arabs hate all non Arabs? Your argument here is, at best, confused.
Yeah keep talking out of your butt over legit points. Do you think Iraqis enjoy their govt institutions and their superiors being outsiders? People they went to war with? They're calling it an Iranian province.

Yes, fix your human rights issues - we'll be happy to help.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/17/uk-tied-visa-system-turning-domestic-workers-into-modern-day-slaves
I hope they are fixed. In the meantime take this money and stay quiet about it. You can use it as an excuse to not pay your debts later. I would list all the agreements Britain and the west broke in the ME but why bother.

Russia started TWO wars with Ukraine using proxies just because of paranoia
Russia is tied to Ukraine, different politics in the ME.

China itself is a mess, anyway, there are numerous examples of poorly built Chinese infrastructure breaking down and people dying.
Over the years they have proven to be the most rational power. Full respect for sovereignty of distant countries.

[Hooahguy]

Russia and France are teaming up to fight ISIS. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-17/putin-says-france-now-ally-in-syria-as-russia-steps-up-strikes)


Also, not looking at anyone in particular but everyone needs to think before they post a personal attack. I already shut down one thread because of it and I do not want to have to do it again. Ive been lax about enforcing rules so far but if need be I will crack down like what happened two months ago.

[Strike For The South]

Terror perpetrated by fascists

http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/victims-of-the-paris-attacks/

[Papewaio]

Well ISIS would count as a facist organization.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Russia and France are teaming up to fight ISIS. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-17/putin-says-france-now-ally-in-syria-as-russia-steps-up-strikes)


Also, not looking at anyone in particular but everyone needs to think before they post a personal attack. I already shut down one thread because of it and I do not want to have to do it again. Ive been lax about enforcing rules so far but if need be I will crack down like what happened two months ago.

I blame our American overlords for the entente between Russia and France.

If you had deployed more ships then the French would ally with YOU!

[Strike For The South]

Well ISIS would count as a facist organization.

And here you were, thinking we couldn't find common ground.

[Papewaio]

And here you were, thinking we couldn't find common ground.

We have a lot more in common then not.

[Strike For The South]

We have a lot more in common then not.
I would agree. Looks, intelligence, charm, and that's just to start.

[Csargo]

I cannot keep up with all these sig changes SFTS. Please calm down sir.

[Papewaio]

I would agree. Looks, intelligence, charm, and that's just to start.

My condolences if you look like me ...

[Shaka_Khan]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/17/europe/germany-netherlands-soccer-canceled/index.html

'Serious plans for explosions' cancel Netherlands-Germany soccer match

(CNN)—"Serious plans for explosions" forced the evacuation of a stadium in Hannover, Germany, on Tuesday night before a Netherlands-Germany friendly soccer match, the police chief for Germany's Lower Saxony region told Germany's public broadcaster NDR....


http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/17/world/air-france-flight-diverted/index.html

Air France flight from Los Angeles to Paris diverted after bomb threat

(CNN)—Air France Flight 65, headed from Los Angeles to Paris, was diverted to Salt Lake City after bomb threat was called in from the ground, a U.S. government official said...

[Husar]

I get the sense we're in much more danger than we realise

That is what they want, no?


The Chinese are capable of building things to a high standard but they won't bother if they can get away with it.

You mean like VW (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal), GM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_scandal) and Toyota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls)?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is what they want, no?

To make us afraid?

Well, I am not - but I do recognise the danger.

[a completely inoffensive name]

To make us afraid?

Well, I am not - but I do recognise the danger.
At least you can go the hospital free of charge after getting shot by a terrorist.