heavy cavalry

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

hi folks. i'd like to ask, how do u employ heavy cavalry on the battlefield? do u concentrate them in a group and send them against one foe, or charge them individually into different enemy regiments? esp for muslim factions, whose heavy cav is quite pathetic.

[Sandy-San]

use them on anything but spears, same as most cav. usually good for harassing an enemy line, or outflanking.

simple really.

[Jaret]

Depends on the kind of heavy cav ... and the kind of enemy.

Muslim "heavy" Cav and other not so well armoured and skilled Cav units. I Basicaly use like medium Cavalry ... mostly on the flanks ... mostly stand alone to run down Archers or to Flank the enemy Line.

The real steamrollers like Lancers, Order Knights, Gothics or Chivalrics ... I use according to the amount that I have and according to the enemy armysetup. If I have only a few ( 2 Units ) of them I use them like the above (with greater efficiency ) but when I have some 4 or more units of them ... and the enemy army has not too many spearmen or other anticav troops ... a close formation of heavies can quickly end the battle for you. Wedge formation provides some extra kick when using them like that.

[Leet Eriksson]

For muslim cavalry you gotta flank the heavier cav and watch out for spears they ain't good against them(even against early spears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)also attack crusaders/heavy cavalry from the sides or behind while spears hold them.since muslim cavalry are speedy you can easily flank enemy cavalry,don't bother with camels unless defending a province with a desert,just charge yer camels and flank with other cav this will make heavy cavalry run in an instantalso muslim cavs are alot cheaper so horde themuse 4-5 units of em and keep flanking for easy killing.overall muslim tacics involve flanking and holding(and you'll have to rely on that ALOT).The Byzantines on the other hand have pretty good heavy cav(katphrakts and pronoi) early on,but later you'll have to flank the heavier cav to really win any battle.as for the catholics there units are straightforward and does not need a strategy since all yer doing is charging(they are pretty good when charging head-on and can actually break early spear units)

[Vlad The Impaler]

boyars rock http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

and the only useful russian unit there is.....

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

Thanks Faisal. Peace be upon u. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif let me give u a situation so as to better clarify the reason behind my question.

recently i fought a battle as the Almohads. i charged 5 units of Ghulam Bodyguard, from the flank, against a unit of Gothic knights in combat with my Muwahid. 3 mins and many casualties later, my general died and my entire army broke. Since Ghulam Bodyguard are the best heavy cav the almohads can get, i was, justifiably i think, upset. when u charge 5 of yr heaviest cav against the flank... u expect a bit more.

what advice do u have for such a situation? i was quite vexed. since Ghulam bodyguard come only in units of 20, i tend to pool them all together in one grp.

[LadyAnn]

If you play as Egypt, you have a good cav in Mameluke Cav. They use mace/axe type, so is good against armor (heavy western troops and cavs).

Camels are good against horse if use properly.

Ghulam bodyguards are good for defense, but not good for attack. They have good charge, but against organized, heavy troops, they lack the power, because of their small size. Each man in your unit can strike once per turn, but may have to receive many blows.

Try to hire mercenary. Alan Cav, as bad as they are, are reasonnably OK for what you are trying to do with hte bodyguards.
Annie

[TenkiSoratoti]

Use light cav to draw out use heavy cav to syurprise and take out the drawn out unit, make sure it aint spears though.

[HopAlongBunny]

Oweeee

Sounds pretty extreme _Sultan_ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Maybe a very high valour Goth? I think faisal made some good points; one more thing to consider-if you have them held get some AP+ units in the fight. Ghazi are absolutely great, as Egypt mameluke cav can help.

Have you tried to "chain" your charges or was it all one rush? Charge in a Ghulam run it away right asap, charge in the next run it away...etc. I think melee is where you're gonna get hurt.

[Alrowan]

i tend to use them on one flnk only, protecting my other with halbreds, this way when i see thier flanks occupied, i can come in behind and do all sorts of damage. Knights wear out quite quick, so i use them sparingly

[A.Saturnus]

Kwarazmiam are underestimated They are as strong as Katas only quicker. Feudal knights are no problem for them. Chiv knights is something else of course but more expensive. You still have a good schock against inf. Mamluk cav and ghulam cav are also usefull as medium cav. Muslim factions are a bit weaker with heavy cav, but schock tactics can still be used.

[TenkiSoratoti]

Heavy cavs sneak arond back and take out enmy at rear, ur guranteed a win if you can do this effectivly with them.

You need to clear a ptthway from them first though or just take the long route and go all the way round.

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

Hmmm. i'd like to ask, is it a valid tactic with heavy cavalry to charge, withdraw and charge again till the enemy breaks? how to limit casualties as yr cav break away? tried out this tactic with Steppe cavalry in custom battle, worked a treat. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

The only way your going to kill a gothic knight is attacking its rear,even flanking will get you heavy casualties(becuase they carry maces).about the part where you charge and retreat with heavy cav it is valid,if you want to break a certain spear formation charge and retreat(repeat until broken)the only problem is Knights are impetous(may be hard to control),the exception is the Knights of Santiago they are the easiest knights to control properly.

[Kraxis]

All the Order Knights are easily controlled, though the Teutonics can be a little unruly.

I used the charge and recharge tactic back in the first days of MTW. I had a streak of new campaigns almost every second day, so naturally I had plenty of training with lousy units. I found that Peasants can be effective in very Early game (though I didn't ever train them). In every battle I had them I used them on he flank charging and recharging time and again, I managed to rout and kill plenty of enemies with them.
Since then I have attempted to do it with all good chargers.

[rpasell]

bump?

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Gothic and Lancer Knights are not so hot, in all of my games of 10K or less they couldn't be given the valour to deal with spears and were chewed up...even by Byz Inf.

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

Hmmm, Kraxis. u use the charge and recharge tactic with infantry? wouldn't infantry be too slow to disengage safely? cos if what u say is practical, there might be hope yet for Ghazi and other muslim infantry, all good charge and pathetic defense...

[Vlad The Impaler]

concentrate.because is heavy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif troops

[TheViking]

devide them, half on each flank, go round enemy melee units and kill enemy shooters then attack enemy in the back.

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

Well, vlad, if i do concentrate them, i.e. grouping together all my units of, say, Khwarazmians, and having them engage one target at a time, the problem is tt they can only be at one part of the battle. in large battles u find tt u may overwhelm the foe on one flank only to see yr other flank and centre collapse.

[Vlad The Impaler]

well when i said "concentrate" i understand exactly the same thing u just said All_the_Sultan's_horses
concentrate ur shock troops in a single powerful blow preferably against one flank .of course if in the center the enemy have only peasants u can strike there; but i dont see a reason to attack with a line of heavy cavalry when u can hold them as reserve and and use them as a powerful force after the initial engagement

TheViking yes u can do this if u outnumber the enemy; but when u have lets say 2 heavy cavs and the enemy have more soldiers than u lets say 2;1 is not wise to use ur best units split; IMHO i think is it better to use the best force toghether. hcav have powerful morale and can cause morale penalty to enemy so two units can cause more damage if u concentrate them. faster and bigger damage can cause faster rout of the enemy; so bigger chances to entire enemy amry; smthin like domino http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
sorry if i'm not very clear but my english is not so good

[TheViking]

it always work fine. And the enemy always outnumber me in melee or atleast to 95% of the times, cus i use 4 cav 6 archers and 6 melee (4 spear and 2 shock).

The ai is stupid and always concentrate their mainforce to the center thats why it always works.

[Jeroen Hill]

I use only Chivalric knights and their task is to finish off enemy troops that were drawn away from their lines, e.g. following some skirmishers of mine.

When my infantry battles I position my knights behind their lines to pick off any routing troops.

As mentioned before, spears are dangerous.

[Kraxis]

Sultan...

I have indeed tried to use infantry in the same respect in general, but the results have only been mediocre in MP. This tactic is by far he best when you have a flanking force of weak attackers with a good charge. Try it with Order Foot on the flank in Engage, they will be quite efficient compared to normally, but not Ghazi sadly they have too good an attack to be pulled out and a too bad defense to survive it. They can kill more by staying there...

[Vlad The Impaler]

well when i used the term shock troops in this topic i was refering only to hcav not other shock troops.maybe i use the term incorect but it was an topic about hcav and i see this kinda troops always as a shock unit.or elite one