Things Are Changing

[AE Bravo]

Suddenly all the white knights stfu. Oh wait they still got their heads covered...

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/12/women-win-seats-landmark-saudi-arabia-elections-151213054750832.html

[Fragony]

good development

[a completely inoffensive name]

Means nothing when they still can't give their speeches in front of men.

[AE Bravo]

Means nothing to you, I agree, which is telling.

Since they're not asking for that YET, not giving props where props due is classic white knighting.

[Fragony]

It's something at least

[a completely inoffensive name]

Means nothing to you, I agree, which is telling.

Since they're not asking for that YET, not giving props where props due is classic white knighting.
You have proven to be wrong on every subject you talk about, and this one is no different.

I don't give props to savages that cut off clitoris's

[I of the Storm]

...

I don't give props to savages that cut off clitoris's

I wasn't aware the Saudis did that. I thought that was more of an african tribal society thing. You sure about your geography?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I wasn't aware the Saudis did that. I thought that was more of an african tribal society thing. You sure about your geography?
Nah, its prevalent in numerous middle eastern countries as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country

[AE Bravo]

So you put Saudi Arabia with the wiki page that excludes Saudi Arabia because they're all savages.

Don't know what savages did to you, but somebody should cut off your clitoris for being a c word.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So you put Saudi Arabia with the wiki page that excludes Saudi Arabia because they're all savages.

Don't know what savages did to you, but somebody should cut off your clitoris for being a c word.

Except it doesn't exclude Saudi Arabia if you scroll down to the Middle East section of the page. Spoilers: it says FGM is prevalent. But then you would have to read text instead of glancing at the first image you see.

[Csargo]

I, for one, welcome our new female overlords.

[AE Bravo]

Nothing like an entitled white liberal with his yuppy white knight arguments. As far as being "wrong" goes: You showed your buzzfeed bandwagon brain by saying climate change caused the war in Syria, and you were straight beta'd in this thread right here after being on the guy's nuts https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?150785-Quick-insert-%28Goodbye%29

No [internet] dignity. This thread has nothing to do with FGM and it's sickening you'd bring it up at every positive step taken against such oppression.

Oh, btw the data about fgm is wrong buzzfeed brain.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Elections in the Kingdom are essentially meaningless.

The fact that the princes of the House of Saud are allowing women the privilege of voting in them is therefore also largely meaningless and essentially a fig-leaf on oppression.

Throughout the 18th Century women were allowed to serve on a number of local school boards and other local councils in the UK but while they had some influence and input in this narrow sphere they were still generally oppressed.

It won't mean anything until the men of Saudi Arabia make the law collectively in a democracy and are willing to accept women into the democratic process.

Remember, before the Shah fell he passed all sorts of reforms relating the equal treatment of women but because he was an absolute monarch it didn't stick once the People took over.

[Montmorency]

Nothing like an entitled white liberal with his yuppy white knight arguments. As far as being "wrong" goes: You showed your buzzfeed bandwagon brain by saying climate change caused the war in Syria, and you were straight beta'd in this thread right here after being on the guy's nuts https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?150785-Quick-insert-%28Goodbye%29

No [internet] dignity. This thread has nothing to do with FGM and it's sickening you'd bring it up at every positive step taken against such oppression.

Oh, btw the data about fgm is wrong buzzfeed brain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hnWvyQDbhs

[Greyblades]

Nothing like an entitled white liberal with his yuppy white knight arguments.

Hey playa, I worked real hard to get the part of resident conservative, stop creepin on my turf or I'll put a cap in yo ass!

[Fragony]

Elections in the Kingdom are essentially meaningless.

The fact that the princes of the House of Saud are allowing women the privilege of voting in them is therefore also largely meaningless and essentially a fig-leaf on oppression.

Throughout the 18th Century women were allowed to serve on a number of local school boards and other local councils in the UK but while they had some influence and input in this narrow sphere they were still generally oppressed.

It won't mean anything until the men of Saudi Arabia make the law collectively in a democracy and are willing to accept women into the democratic process.

Remember, before the Shah fell he passed all sorts of reforms relating the equal treatment of women but because he was an absolute monarch it didn't stick once the People took over.

It's still a significant change for the better, even if it's far from perfect. Silver lining here, women get more rights

[Sarmatian]

It's a joke. Women can be elected to local councils whose responsibilities are (not include, but are) "streets, public gardens and rubbish collection".

[a completely inoffensive name]

Nothing like an entitled white liberal with his yuppy white knight arguments. As far as being "wrong" goes: You showed your buzzfeed bandwagon brain by saying climate change caused the war in Syria, and you were straight beta'd in this thread right here after being on the guy's nuts https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?150785-Quick-insert-%28Goodbye%29

No [internet] dignity. This thread has nothing to do with FGM and it's sickening you'd bring it up at every positive step taken against such oppression.

Oh, btw the data about fgm is wrong buzzfeed brain.

Hahahaha, my climate change sources were from legit sources, but of course it's all buzzfeed when you don't agree.

And of course the Christian Science Monitor which was sourced by wikipedia on FGM in Saudi Arabia is just a subsidiary of buzzfeed!

Real question is,
Why you mad though?

[AE Bravo]

Actually, they're now in a position where they can criticize ministers. "Gardening and rubbish" is the primary function of municipalities anyway, it's pointless to trash it based on that. There are more women in the Saudi parliament than congress:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vocativ/saudi-arabias-version-of_b_8812762.html

The voters are pretty much all women so it's only a matter of time before real change happens because of this. Think about it, if it was about to happen in Yemen before the Saudi intervention, it's very likely it will happen here. I doubt anybody here has even met a Saudi women to know how much pride these people have in their culture, go ahead and ask them if they need your help lol. A Saudi women just won a lawsuit against the CPVPV (Sharia police) and that was unheard of years ago. Basically, Shura council is becoming more powerful for having the more educated side of ksa do some work.

Bringing up FGM to a Saudi women is like asking a country boy if he ever borked his sister. Saying climate change caused the conflict in Syria when pretty much the entire region relies on desalination plants, imported water, and a few hot springs here and there just seems that you got your head up your ass. All due respect.

[Kralizec]

Fragony is right, it's a step in the right direction.

A small step though. The triumphalism in the original post is misplaced. Still, good for those women.

[rvg]

In Rome slaves could own slaves...

[AE Bravo]

How are people in the UK treating women lately?

http://www.vice.com/read/bullying-violence-and-verbal-abuse-the-rise-of-female-focused-islamophobia-631

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How are people in the UK treating women lately?

http://www.vice.com/read/bullying-violence-and-verbal-abuse-the-rise-of-female-focused-islamophobia-631

You mean how are they treating Muslim women, especially those who cover their faces?

In some cases very badly, it's a national disgrace.

However, this is a specific prejudice and as much as anything women are the focus because they are more visible.

So it's not a valid comparison.

[Montmorency]

Saying climate change caused the conflict in Syria when pretty much the entire region relies on desalination plants, imported water, and a few hot springs here and there just seems that you got your head up your ass. All due respect.

Incorrect. Desalination has had almost no presence in Syria. Syria and Trans-Jordan are heavily reliant on dwindling ground-water sources.

[AE Bravo]

So it's not a valid comparison.
Well first off they are women, educated British women for the most part. Second is that Saudi Arabia itself doesn't treat its veilless women this way.

Incorrect. Desalination has had almost no presence in Syria. Syria and Trans-Jordan are heavily reliant on dwindling ground-water sources.
My bad. Syria and trans Jordan are exceptions. However, climate change is not an important factor in causing the war in Syria.

[Fragony]

How are people in the UK treating women lately?

http://www.vice.com/read/bullying-violence-and-verbal-abuse-the-rise-of-female-focused-islamophobia-631

If you wear a niqaab you deserve to be discriminated, not a person anymore but only two eyes. Being an outcast is a choice. I will not harm them but I am not calling an ambulance should they need one eitther.

[Gilrandir]

If you wear a niqaab you deserve to be discriminated, not a person anymore but only two eyes. Being an outcast is a choice. I will not harm them but I am not calling an ambulance should they need one eitther.

You are starting to repeat yourself. Try fire fighters next time.

[Fragony]

You are starting to repeat yourself. Try fire fighters next time.

Try finding where I repeat myself in this context eastblock-squarehead, vodka is on me. Want some lemon with it, feel free to pick them you even get payed to do it

[Montmorency]

You are starting to repeat yourself. Try fire fighters next time.
Try finding where I repeat myself in this context eastblock-squarehead, vodka is on me. Want some lemon with it, feel free to pick them you even get payed to do it

https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/Sickfires.png

[Gilrandir]

Want some lemon with it, feel free to pick them you even get payed to do it

I envy you. You get paid to drink vodka while other people pay to do that.

As forfinding your quote, my memory (unburdened by vodka) serves me quite OK. It was in the same discussion about face-covering, although in a different thread.

[Fragony]

I envy you. You get paid to drink vodka while other people pay to do that.

As forfinding your quote, my memory (unburdened by vodka) serves me quite OK. It was in the same discussion about face-covering, although in a different thread.

You misunderstand me, I meant you are free to find lemons, there is no such thing as too much lemons and you could be usefull

[Rhyfelwyr]

Was a bit sympathetic with the OP's argument until he compared mistreatment of women in the UK to what goes on in Saudi Arabia.

A nominal vote is useless when they are still denied even the most basic freedoms. Let them walk out the house or show their face in public before you start worrying about token political rights.

[AE Bravo]

A nominal vote is useless when they are still denied even the most basic freedoms. Let them walk out the house or show their face in public before you start worrying about token political rights.
Token political rights will enable those basic freedoms.

[Pannonian]

Token political rights will enable those basic freedoms.

In the British experience, institutional freedoms pre-dated political rights. By quite a long way. Actually, in the British experience, institutional freedoms has been a commonly accepted reality for goodness knows how many centuries. The British assumption of freedom unless specifically otherwise prescribed, and even then bitterly fought over, has been the model for liberal democratic countries all over the world, not least the US. What's it like in the country you're from?

[AE Bravo]

That's the way it works in most countries. Saudi Arabia is different because institutional freedoms and political rights are dictated by the clergy and the crown. This is a positive step in an Islamist society, look at Iran. Clergy has a growing post-Islamist threat of various stripes, this is a large part of it.

My country is too young to be in that conversation, but far better than Saudi Arabia in every way.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's the way it works in most countries. Saudi Arabia is different because institutional freedoms and political rights are dictated by the clergy and the crown. This is a positive step in an Islamist society, look at Iran. Clergy has a growing post-Islamist threat of various stripes, this is a large part of it.

My country is too young to be in that conversation, but far better than Saudi Arabia in every way.

Saudi Arabia is the same as Iran was - Iran fell apart after the Shah fell and it's only edged towards real democracy in the last decade, despite having a strong democratic tradition prior to the Shah's direct rule and a well educated populace.

You also have to ask why the Saudi Princes are doing this.

I see a couple of possible explanations:

A: Someone's Courtesan complained about rubbish collection in her ward.

B: They're trying to distract the US from what a terrible place it is by making token gestures towards reform.

At the other end of the scale you have Bahrain where the ruler is trying to move towards democracy and inclusion of women in the government but keeps running up against his ignorant male subjects who'd rather be ruled by Islamists.

[AE Bravo]

I got no love for the house of Saud, and while I think A is rubbish B is definitely possible. This is still a good thing.

As for Bahrain, I don't believe Islamists of both sects hold much power or are that popular for that matter. I spent two years there as a kid and went back a few years earlier, Islamist prudes are almost non-existent unlike Saudi Arabia. It's a free society with more progressives. In the end, it's a protectorate and you'd have to talk about Saudi interests when you talk about everything Bahrain.

[Fisherking]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/627602/Saudi-Arabia-orders-execution-teenager

[Greyblades]

Saudi arabia giving women those minor rights are like giving spare change to a hobo, it is a good thing but it's not going to do anything to offset any serious wrongs done by the giver.