Official Org Star Wars Reaction Thread (Spoilers)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So....

I just saw it - let's build in some spoiler defence now. Read past this point and you have yourself, and only yourself, to blame.
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OK - let the spoilers commence!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I saw the film this evening. My first reaction after the lights went up could be politely described as "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?"

Overall I really enjoyed the film, the first half-hour and the last half hour especially, as well as everything with Han and Chewie. This really feels like Star Wars, it really is Star Wars and it's great to see that the characters from the original trilogy are well integrated and not just shoe-horned in. The new characters are all well acted, original and three dimensional. There were a couple of instances where it felt like the new characters didn't get as much screen time as they deserved simply because the cast is so large.

Standout performances were Harrison Ford and Daisy Ridley, though Mark Hamill's turn as Luke Skywalker was also extremely powerful.

As far as the setting goes - this isn't just a beautiful film with a variety of environments - this really feels like Star Wars. When Han and his young charges walk into a Cantina on a jungle planet you recognise that this is another one of those holes Han runs to when he needs something, like Mos Eisley. This isn't just a pastiche though - there's a different type of music, and the atmosphere is busy and frenetic rather than menacing. The new Star Destroyer looks great, as do the Imperial and Rebel bases.

Moving on the the plot and wider story - this is where things are a bit patchy. The stories for the individual characters, their arcs and their personal development were great. However, the wider story had massive holes in. You have a Republic, and a First order, and a Resistance. The First Order is basically an Imperial Remnant, the Republic is the successor to the Rebel Alliance and the Resistance is fighting the First Order.

However, a number of very important questions are simply not addressed. Why does the Republic not fight the first the First Order directly? How powerful is the First Order vs the Republic? What exactly is the Resistance Resisting?

My personal theory, based on what we've been told outside the films is that the First Order is a small but militarily powerful Imperial Remnant, that the Republic has avoided confronting it directly because they are technically at peace after the battle of Jakku and the Resistance is domestic - i.e. it resists the First Order within First Order space. This doesn't really make a lot of sense but it's the best I have.

another glaring question the movie failed to address was how long Luke has been gone - back of an envelope calculations based on Kylo Ren being his apprentice before turning to the Dark side suggests a figure of around five years. However, we aren't even given a ballpark figure, and it's not something you can infer whilst watching the film, you have to sit down afterwards and work it out.

these are big flaws in the film, and they did reduce my enjoyment of it - structurally this felt a lot more like The Empire Strikes Back than a New Hope and the ending in particular - whilst it held out hope for the next film - was very must a second-act ending, and that's also a problem.

Did I enjoy it? Yes. Was it objectively a good film? Yes, I think so. Can it be excused for relying on other media to fill out the blanks in it's plot? No, not really. I suppose you could argue that this is a film told from the point of view of the new characters, and their ignorance of Galactic Politics is therefore our ignorance but I still feel that we could have been given a line like "that was almost a decade ago" re Luke's disappearance or a shaded map to give us a rough idea of where the major players are - we certainly got enough star maps that a brief strategic briefing could have been worked in without it becoming a huge info dump.

My Final verdict is a comparative one:

Better than all the Prequels, but not as good as Return of the Jedi.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I just came back from the theater, quick thoughts:

Kylo Ren is meant to be in his mid twenties. I believe he was probably turned to the dark side when he was much younger. My estimate for Luke disappearing is around 10 years.

After talking about the plot with family, it seems likely that the Republic is a neutral, pacifist government with no standing army. Learning from the lessons of the clone wars, a large standing Republic army would scare those that remembered the rise of the Empire.

Unofficially, the Republic funds the resistance, which is essentially the continuation of the Rebel Alliance against the Imperial Remnants. But the Republic has no direct control over the resistance and has no direct military power or authority over the resistance.

The homages to the earlier films were obvious but well done. There was the death star 3.0 exploding, a cantina scene, the story originating on a desert planet, the reveal of family ties, Solo's scoundrel behavior catching up to him, even the first scene is an homage to the very first scene in A New Hope when a large star destroyer looming over the rebel ship versus TFA giving us an even bigger star destroyer looming over an entire planet.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Also @PVC, remember that space politics really bogged down the plot and pacing of the prequel trilogy. I would not be surprised if this new trilogy left out the details on the Republic's constitution and just focused on the exciting conflicts.

[Greyblades]

I'm wondering what happened to the rebel fleet after ROTJ. Seems wierd that, with such influential people like Leia and Akbar in it, the resistance would be limited to X-wings. What happened to the capital ships and the assortment of B/A/Y wing craft?


I saw TFA on it's release day and I enjoyed it. Good seeing the old guard again, Harrison Ford steals the show but I thought the new blood didn't suffer too much for it and had plenty of opportunities to shine, especially the X-wing pilot who helps Finn defect from the remenant.

The Force Awakens does feel like classic Star Wars. I dare say it is about A New Hope/Return of the Jedi level of quality, but not quite reaching that of Empire Strikes Back.



By the way, did anyone else think for a minute like I did that the new deathstar equivialent blew up coruscant in it's first firing? For a second I thought the new movies had destroyed the main setting of the prequel movies as a "screw you".

[PROVOST]

By the way, did anyone else think for a minute like I did that the new deathstar equivialent blew up coruscant in it's first firing? For a second I thought the new movies had destroyed the main setting of the prequel movies as a "screw you".


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hosnian_Prime

[Veho Nex]

I thought the movie was aight. It seemed incredibly rushed for character development and I just hate the names Ray and Fin. I feel like Ray gained super Jedi power far too quickly and how did she become the person to comfort after Han's untimely demise. Why didn't leia huge Chewie after they came back? It seemed like the ray and fin became too high in the resistance and intertwined with everyone in a very short period of time.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Also @PVC, remember that space politics really bogged down the plot and pacing of the prequel trilogy. I would not be surprised if this new trilogy left out the details on the Republic's constitution and just focused on the exciting conflicts.

About the only thing we know about the Republic is that it had a Fleet and now it doesn't.

Star Killer Base blew up multiple planets, possibly most of the Core Worlds.

Or did it?

I'm not asking to see the Republic Senate (they're all dead now anyway) but I would have liked a map after Star Killer base blew up showing us Republic territory and the planets that were hit just so I could get an idea of the size of the Republic and the impact that one strike had on it overall.

For a conflict to be exciting you need to know what's at stake - and the movie doesn't really give you enough to get invested in that. I was invested in the characters and the Resistance base not getting blown up but I have no idea what it means that the Resistance is apparently down to a dozen T-70 fighters.

Presumably destroying the Republic Fleet and the Capital will cause upheaval but because I don't know what the Republic was like before it's going to be hard to gauge the impact.

The destruction of Hosnian Prime was a great opportunity to key the audience in on what the First Order had actually achieved - without that it's hard to know exactly how to feel. The film doesn't even really establish that the Republic is the dominant power (territorially) in the galaxy.

The movie makes the audience work really hard if they want to understand what went on.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it and I'll probably see it again before is closes but the omission is glaring and could have been easily fixed with another 2-3 lines.

[Shaka_Khan]

I was invested in the characters and the Resistance base not getting blown up but I have no idea what it means that the Resistance is apparently down to a dozen T-70 fighters.

That reminds me of Roald Dahl's Going Solo.

[PROVOST]

The movie makes the audience work really hard if they want to understand what went on.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it and I'll probably see it again before is closes but the omission is glaring and could have been easily fixed with another 2-3 lines.

Agreed.

Like with Poe's re-appearance post crash landing on Jakku and Finn's reuniting with Poe.

[Papewaio]

Worthy successor to IV, V and IV

Lots of references to previous movies including I-III.

And some nice little interactions ie Chewie paternally giving Han his coat before they go outside in the snow again, or when Kylo is smashing the detention centre and as two storm troopers approach one of them grabs the other by an elbow and they do a u turn and march back the other way to avoid him.

[Beskar]

To sum up the movie in two words. Emo Ren.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To sum up the movie in two words. Emo Ren.

Disagree - whilst Kylo Ren is a fairly interesting villain on a childish and petulant sort of way he's virtually interchangeable with any other Dark Jedi.

This film as about Finn and Rey - and the question of WHERE IS LUKE SKYWALKER?

[Beskar]

Disagree - whilst Kylo Ren is a fairly interesting villain on a childish and petulant sort of way he's virtually interchangeable with any other Dark Jedi.

This film as about Finn and Rey - and the question of WHERE IS LUKE SKYWALKER?

It is clear he is getting a Vader upgrade.

The movie is basically retelling a lot of themes from the 6 previous movies, but all in one movie. In a way, it works a lot as it plays a lot on the nostalgia.

I like Finn's character a lot.

[Sp4]

I did not really like Finn's character. I think he switched (and made) the story a little too easily. Could have used some more elaboration. Also the story behind the Republic and the First Order... I would have liked some of that ^^ Where is the rest of the Empire? Did their army just vanish? If the Empire goes back to being a Republic does that get rid of potentially billions of troops and thousands of ships?

Are the First Order angry soldiers who stopped getting paid after the Republic said nope, we don't need an army and decided to sort themselves out? If so, how is the Republic so silly? If they wanted to get rid of the massive army, their first order of business should have been a gradual demilitarisation to prevent exactly what happened from happening!

If nothing like this or anything similar happened, why isn't the Republic using what remains of the imperial army to fight the First Order directly? Would the remainder of the army fight against their own once brothers in arms?

Whaa.. yes, the movie was good and I loved just about all the characters and they were great and the new bad guy was kind of cool although very generic as well and the girl was great and I really liked how well she fit in next to Solo and Chewy. Overall, an enjoyable movie.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is clear he is getting a Vader upgrade.

The movie is basically retelling a lot of themes from the 6 previous movies, but all in one movie. In a way, it works a lot as it plays a lot on the nostalgia.

I like Finn's character a lot.

It's re-telling some of it, but that makes a certain amount of sense - these characters are coming from the past films as history.

The Empire got beat when the Rebellion blew up the Death Star II - so if you want to convince people the Empire is back what do you do? Build a bigger Death Star, obviously.

Whether Kylo Ren is actually going to get a Vader upgrade or not remains to be seen, I imagine not actually - he wasn't as badly hurt as Vader and it would be supremely silly. After all - the big reveal with the character was that under the helm was an attractive young man. I can't see them no going full-on Vader, it's too obvious.

Having said that, after his Patricide I doubt redemption is on the cards for Kylo Ren.

[Beskar]

If nothing like this or anything similar happened, why isn't the Republic using what remains of the imperial army to fight the First Order directly? Would the remainder of the army fight against their own once brothers in arms?

First Order are the Imperial Remnants. They cannot exactly attack themselves?

[PROVOST]

First Order are the Imperial Remnants. They cannot exactly attack themselves?

They sure could.

The term is "civil war"

[Noncommunist]

Whether Kylo Ren is actually going to get a Vader upgrade or not remains to be seen, I imagine not actually - he wasn't as badly hurt as Vader and it would be supremely silly. After all - the big reveal with the character was that under the helm was an attractive young man. I can't see them no going full-on Vader, it's too obvious.

Having said that, after his Patricide I doubt redemption is on the cards for Kylo Ren.

On the other hand, he did seem to have some real internal conflict somewhat before his patricide. It seems they'd do something with it other than just make Han's redemption attempt seem more plausible.


One thing I liked about the prequels was the idea of Anakin bringing balance to the force adding more poignancy to his change of heart with Palpatine at the end of VI. Clearly, it seems he didn't bring an end to those using the dark side. However, I'm hoping that his existence ultimately has some role to play in bringing balance to the force through his posthumous legacy.

[Greyblades]

Worthy successor to IV, V and IV

Lots of references to previous movies including I-III.

And some nice little interactions ie Chewie paternally giving Han his coat before they go outside in the snow again, or when Kylo is smashing the detention centre and as two storm troopers approach one of them grabs the other by an elbow and they do a u turn and march back the other way to avoid him.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/056/427/efd.gif

[a completely inoffensive name]

The prophecy was dumb to begin with. I just assume that the Jedi were completely mistaken and arrogant of their righteousness due to their political power during the republic.

[PROVOST]

https://s11.postimg.org/tppy28fwz/1914630_1132687270077819_4320488925784564978_n.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Beskar]

The prophecy was dumb to begin with. I just assume that the Jedi were completely mistaken and arrogant of their righteousness due to their political power during the republic.

He kind of did bring 'Balance' to the force, since there were always two Sith and he reduced them to two Jedi. (Obi-wan and Yoda)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He kind of did bring 'Balance' to the force, since there were always two Sith and he reduced them to two Jedi. (Obi-wan and Yoda)

That assumes that equity between the Dark Side and the Light Side means "balance". That argument doesn't really hold up, though.

[Beskar]

or Balance could be the Grey knights. The Jedi are too stoic, the Dark side is too passionate, bringing balance would be the middle ground.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The fall of Kylo Ren undermines the prophecy however you spin it. Luke was the Grey Jedi that could embrace both emotion and control, then Episode VII shows that in the end, the teaching of the force will ultimately devolve back into opposing camps that pursue polarizing views in direct conflict of each other.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

or Balance could be the Grey knights. The Jedi are too stoic, the Dark side is too passionate, bringing balance would be the middle ground.

Except that the idea of "Grey Jedi" never appears in the films - it actually originates with ad hoc rules created by fans of the Old WEG RPG. Luke wasn't a "Grey" Jedi in any case, he isn't actually a Jedi Knight until the end of the film when he finally rejects his passions and embraces the Stoic Jedi point of view in that scene when he discards his lightsaber before the Emperor and declares, "You've failed your highness, I am a Jedi like my father before me,"

Up until that point you don't know if he's going to be the hero or whether he's going to fall, like his father. The first thing you see him do is choke two Gamorians and later he succumbs to rage and cuts off Vaders hand, it's not until he looks down at his own prosthetic that he realizes how close he is to becoming his father.

He steps back from the brink, he finally embraces the Force and he becomes a JEdi.

A lot of people project a dualistic "Good and Evil" balance thing onto the Star Wars Universe but it's not like that at all. I'm pretty sure until Episode VII that nobody ever talks about "The Light Side" they just talk about "The Force" and "The Dark Side of the Force".

What separates the Jedi and the Sith is not that one is "Good" and one is "Evil", it's that the Jedi "let the Force flow throw" them and the Sith try to command the Force. The Force is the energy field that surrounds all things, the Jedi flow through it and the Sith try to swim against it. If you look at the Jedi in the Prequals they aren't "good" Paladins by any stretch - Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon don't try to overthrow Jabba and free all the slaves, they rescue Anakin because Qui-Gon senses his strength in the Force and he sense that it is the right thing to do. It's not "right" in the sense of Good and Evil though, it's "right" as in the Force will it.

If you're looking for a way that Vader fulfilled the prophecy then it's through killing Palpatine and destroying the Sith. Note that everybody has said that Snoke and the Knights of Ren are not "Sith" even if they do represent the Dark Side.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Fan theory:

https://youtu.be/j66qVexOrU0

Apparently Kylo Ren uses the Light and Dark Side - making him your notional Grey Jedi.

[Papewaio]

On the other hand, he did seem to have some real internal conflict somewhat before his patricide. It seems they'd do something with it other than just make Han's redemption attempt seem more plausible.


One thing I liked about the prequels was the idea of Anakin bringing balance to the force adding more poignancy to his change of heart with Palpatine at the end of VI. Clearly, it seems he didn't bring an end to those using the dark side. However, I'm hoping that his existence ultimately has some role to play in bringing balance to the force through his posthumous legacy.

Apart from being emotionally stunted in their self enforced emotional and physical eunuch existence, Jedi are also mathematically inept.

Balance 1000 Jedi, 2 Sith

Answers
A) 501 of each
B) 1000 of each
C) two of each is Ben, Yoda the Emperor and Darth Vader

Incorrect answers 1000 Jedi and no Sith.

[Noncommunist]

Apart from being emotionally stunted in their self enforced emotional and physical eunuch existence, Jedi are also mathematically inept.

Balance 1000 Jedi, 2 Sith

Answers
A) 501 of each
B) 1000 of each
C) two of each is Ben, Yoda the Emperor and Darth Vader

Incorrect answers 1000 Jedi and no Sith.

I don't see why they would necessarily need to be physical eunuchs. The rule is against attachment so I suppose a Jedi could have a bunch of one night stands.

I think the Jedi view of bringing balance to the force was a removal of the dark side that corrupted or unbalanced it. So not so much of a balance between the light and dark side as some other concept of balance that involves only the light side.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Apart from being emotionally stunted in their self enforced emotional and physical eunuch existence, Jedi are also mathematically inept.

Balance 1000 Jedi, 2 Sith

Answers
A) 501 of each
B) 1000 of each
C) two of each is Ben, Yoda the Emperor and Darth Vader

Incorrect answers 1000 Jedi and no Sith.

This is wrong because of this:


I don't see why they would necessarily need to be physical eunuchs. The rule is against attachment so I suppose a Jedi could have a bunch of one night stands.

I think the Jedi view of bringing balance to the force was a removal of the dark side that corrupted or unbalanced it. So not so much of a balance between the light and dark side as some other concept of balance that involves only the light side.

The Jedi very clearly see the Dark Side as a corruption of the Force and if you sweep away the computer games and the paper RPG's and get down to what Lucas actually wrote in the films that makes sense.

The Force is neither good nor evil, Jedi are neither good nor evil.

If you actually look at what the Jedi do they're nothing like the character you play in KOTOR to get max lightside points. Yes, JEdi believe in things like Justice and reciprocity because those are forces for balance.

Contrast this with the Sith, who want power and always more of it, and always more direct control over others. What's more, the Sith do things like blow up planets which directly disturbs the natural flow of the force by destroying billions of lifeforms.

There's also no real evidence that the Jedi are emotionally stunted. The Jedi are monks, monks are celibate and do not form strong bonds outside their orders as a matter of course. Saying that the Jedi Code makes Jedi emotionally stunded is to say that all monks are emotionally stunted.

That would include real-life figures like the Dali Lama and the current Pope.

You're being silly, Pape.

[Montmorency]

get down to what Lucas actually wrote in the films


If you actually look at what the Jedi do

:inquisitive:

I think you may have just come up with a melange of numerous different interpretations scattered across the Expanded Universe, cause it's sure as heck that none of what you said shows up in the Lucas films.

[Hooahguy]

I finally saw the movie, loved it. My little brother did spoil that Han Solo dies but other than that I was very pleasently surprised at how good the movie was. The casting was great, as was the cinematography. Like the scene where Han Solo and Kylo Ren face off on the walkway, that scene was just fantastic. The whole Starkiller base thing felt a bit tired but I felt it didnt really take anything away from the movie as a whole. Overall great movie.

[a completely inoffensive name]

This is wrong because of this:



The Jedi very clearly see the Dark Side as a corruption of the Force and if you sweep away the computer games and the paper RPG's and get down to what Lucas actually wrote in the films that makes sense.

The Force is neither good nor evil, Jedi are neither good nor evil.

If you actually look at what the Jedi do they're nothing like the character you play in KOTOR to get max lightside points. Yes, JEdi believe in things like Justice and reciprocity because those are forces for balance.

Contrast this with the Sith, who want power and always more of it, and always more direct control over others. What's more, the Sith do things like blow up planets which directly disturbs the natural flow of the force by destroying billions of lifeforms.

There's also no real evidence that the Jedi are emotionally stunted. The Jedi are monks, monks are celibate and do not form strong bonds outside their orders as a matter of course. Saying that the Jedi Code makes Jedi emotionally stunded is to say that all monks are emotionally stunted.

That would include real-life figures like the Dali Lama and the current Pope.

You're being silly, Pape.
George Lucas thought out very little besides the idea that Jedi are the space equivalent of knights in shining armor.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

:inquisitive:

I think you may have just come up with a melange of numerous different interpretations scattered across the Expanded Universe, cause it's sure as heck that none of what you said shows up in the Lucas films.

So Qui-Gon frees all the slaves, does he? Gets Jabba the Hutt locked up?

No, he doesn't.

It's very clear that we see as "Good and Evil" the Jedi see as "The Force and the Dark Side"

Go on, try to find the words "Light Side" in Lucas' films.

I'm certain you won't find a single quote, certainly not from a Jedi. The closest I can find is Luke asking "How will I know the Good side from the Bad?" in TESB, but Luke is an idiot for most of TESB.

Here:

https://youtu.be/infZSKB5L9I

Yoda only talks about a Dark Side of the Force, Luke then interprets that as a Light and Dark Side but Yoda never describes a "Light Side".


George Lucas thought out very little besides the idea that Jedi are the space equivalent of knights in shining armor.

Sorry, but he really did think about it quite hard - the original Star Wars movies have this underpinning called the "Heroic Story", the who thing was envisaged quite clearly by Lucas. That's why the Prequals are so boring, with all that government.

Yeah, I know the a lot of the Prequals are really badly executed and a lot of it's boring to watch. Ever watched your actually Senate debate something? Not exciting, is it?

[Montmorency]

You are incorrect in you resonse to ACIN; Lucas put a lot of time and "thought", into the films over the years, but a coherent narrative never emerged beyond the imagery and family themes that Luxas was obsessed with.

It's well-established that Qui-gon is an imbecile on par with Jar Jar, deranged fantasy conspiracies notwithstanding.

Also note: how can Palpatine show Luke a "Dark Side of the Force" without implying another "side" of the Force? At a minimum, it would mean that the Jedi uphold the so-called Grey Side and that there have indeed been some wacky Eremites doing who-knows-what - perhaps writing Star Wars novels?

What's really going on is that Lucas has a jejune intellect.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Much anger I sense in you Montmorency. Disappointed by the Prequels you were. Clouded your judgement it has.

You accused me from drawing on the EU but the "Light Side" is a product of the EU, it isn't mentioned in any of Lucas' films. In Lucas' films there is the Force and the Dark Side of the Force.

Whether you think Lucas' cosmology is silly or Naive is beside the point. Obi Wan says it to Anakin in Episode III "You were the chosen one! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!"

So the Jedi prophecy of the Chosen One says he will destroy the Sith - and that's the last thing Vader does before he dies. There are only two Sith, Vader repents and then kills the Emperor.

From this it is clear that the Sith are the cause of the imbalance. The imbalance is not caused not the numerical difference between the "Godd" Jedi and the "Evil" Sith.

You're right, it's not deep on a philosophical level, I never said it was. The people who are literally trying the find the balance-point on a cosmic scale are the ones trying to make it deep, not me.

As I said, the Jedi are not "Good" as a polar opposite to "Evil", the Jedi are just servants of the Force who appear Good because they are in opposition to the Sith, who are Evil.

[Montmorency]

From this it is clear that the Sith are the cause of the imbalance. The imbalance is not caused not the numerical difference between the "Godd" Jedi and the "Evil" Sith.

Or you could say that this balance was only available because Anakin enabled the elimination of the Jedi first.


In Lucas' films there is the Force and the Dark Side of the Force.

You haven't acknowledged what I said about this. Leaving aside the question of perspective (since there is actually very little movie dialogue discussing the nature of the Force vis-a-vis the Jedi and the Sith, most being concentrated in the last prequel between Yoda and Palps), there is nothing that entails a binary, whether Light vs. Dark or Balance vs. Imbalance. In fact, the way the storyverse is set up from just the films, it would be rather simple to reduce the question to a political-ideological disagreement between groups and individuals with built-in expansions to their coercive capacity.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Or you could say that this balance was only available because Anakin enabled the elimination of the Jedi first.

Except that the experience of facing the Emperor and rejecting his passions is what finally makes Luke a Jedi.

If you're looking for real balance then all the Jedi and Sith would have to die - no more Force users at all, just normal people.


You haven't acknowledged what I said about this. Leaving aside the question of perspective (since there is actually very little movie dialogue discussing the nature of the Force vis-a-vis the Jedi and the Sith, most being concentrated in the last prequel between Yoda and Palps), there is nothing that entails a binary, whether Light vs. Dark or Balance vs. Imbalance. In fact, the way the storyverse is set up from just the films, it would be rather simple to reduce the question to a political-ideological disagreement between groups and individuals with built-in expansions to their coercive capacity.

As far as I can tell The Dark Side is an evil, unnatural, and corrupting influence in the Star Wars galaxy.

Yoday says "A Jedi uses the Force only for knowledge and defence, never for attack." When Luke asks why Yoda replies "there is no 'why'".

Like I said, I never claimed it was clever but as far as I can tell the "Dark Side" is what you get when thinking, self reflective, beings learn to use the Force and then use it in anger. When a Jedi gets angry he falls into some form of self sustaining and exponentially deepening rage spiral that warps him and the flow of the Force around him. This is why Palatine becomes horribly disfigured when the dark side energy he projects is reflected back at him, or why Anakin's eyes turn yellow after he massacres all the Jedi. The Dark side also seems to "stain" places, like the cave of Dagobah.

[Montmorency]

Except that the experience of facing the Emperor and rejecting his passions is what finally makes Luke a Jedi.

If you're looking for real balance then all the Jedi and Sith would have to die - no more Force users at all, just normal people.

For more than 3 decades, it has been universally accepted that whatever Luke is said to have done after the events of ROTJ, it involved a thorough break with the institutional and philosophical character of the (Old) Jedi. The prequels served as the greatest reinforcement to this interpretation.

There's no indication that there were no other Force users in the original trilogy, or that there could not be. In fact, Luke's story strongly suggests otherwise, unless Force ability really is just a result of Lovecraftian bad breeding.


The Dark side also seems to "stain" places, like the cave of Dagobah.

So how did that come about? Did Yoda have a temporary breakdown there? Or is it that you don't necessarily need a Sith or any other Dark Side "user" for (what is called) the Dark Side to manifest, leading again to a view of an impersonal Force that Force-sensitives then evaluate according to personal disposition?

My conclusion is that ultimately the Lucas films are too simple, muddled, and incomplete for your analysis to really be consistent unless you bring in outside material.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For more than 3 decades, it has been universally accepted that whatever Luke is said to have done after the events of ROTJ, it involved a thorough break with the institutional and philosophical character of the (Old) Jedi. The prequels served as the greatest reinforcement to this interpretation.

I'll grant you the old EU Jedi are different to the Prequel Jedi but at the time the Jedi Academy series was written Jedi were not canonically monks, the OT makes no mention of Anakin's children being scandalous so it was assumed Jedi were allowed to marry.

Consider this line towards the end of RotJ.

"You've failed your highness, I am a Jedi like my father before me."

Luke says that line after he cuts of Vader's hand, he then rejects his passions, throws away his lightsaber and at that point declares himself a Jedi. Up until then it's been an open question which way Luke will go, the whole film is about the question of whether or not he can overcome the Dark Side and become a Jedi.


There's no indication that there were no other Force users in the original trilogy, or that there could not be. In fact, Luke's story strongly suggests otherwise, unless Force ability really is just a result of Lovecraftian bad breeding.

On his death bed Yoda tell Luke that he will be the last of the Jedi once he (Yoda) is gone. He doesn't say he will be the last Force Use but I never said Anakin destroyed the Dark Side, I said he destroyed the Sith - who were a major Dark-Side faction.


So how did that come about? Did Yoda have a temporary breakdown there? Or is it that you don't necessarily need a Sith or any other Dark Side "user" for (what is called) the Dark Side to manifest, leading again to a view of an impersonal Force that Force-sensitives then evaluate according to personal disposition?

The conventional assumption is that Yoda chose the planet because of the Dark Side presence and that served to mask his own Force presence from the Emperor. That's not in the film but it's perhaps implied by Episode III

[quote]My conclusion is that ultimately the Lucas films are too simple, muddled, and incomplete for your analysis to really be consistent unless you bring in outside material.

If I were trying to say something complicated I might agree, but all I said was that there's no "Light Side" either mentioned or even really implied by the Jedi in the films and there's no reason to presume that "restoring Balance to the Force" means anything other than destroying the Sith.

Of course, the Jedi could be completely wrong and the prophecy just hokum but I actually think Lucas' core idea is that basic - destroy evil.

[Montmorency]

"You've failed your highness, I am a Jedi like my father before me."

That is one of the most straightforward lines to be sure, but I was saying that, even if Luke was one thing at the end of the trilogy, the EU coupled with the depiction of Republic-era Jedi in the prequels strongly suggests that he went his own way after not too long. It's not applicable of course, but the Disney-SW canon seems to be moving in that direction, perhaps with a dash of Revan.


On his death bed Yoda tell Luke that he will be the last of the Jedi once he (Yoda) is gone. He doesn't say he will be the last Force Use but I never said Anakin destroyed the Dark Side, I said he destroyed the Sith - who were a major Dark-Side faction.

You were saying that the existence of Dark-Siders was in itself a cause or source of imbalance.


The conventional assumption is that Yoda chose the planet because of the Dark Side presence and that served to mask his own Force presence from the Emperor.

Still, where did that presence come from? Was it always there? Did it spontaneously manifest? If so, did it happen during Yoda's stay? Did Yoda create it through his own struggles with anger and temptation? You can make scenarios that involve past struggles in that specific location, but there isn't really a need. For all we know, there was nothing special about the cave and Yoda merely induced a transcendental experience in Luke while he was out of sight.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is one of the most straightforward lines to be sure, but I was saying that, even if Luke was one thing at the end of the trilogy, the EU coupled with the depiction of Republic-era Jedi in the prequels strongly suggests that he went his own way after not too long. It's not applicable of course, but the Disney-SW canon seems to be moving in that direction, perhaps with a dash of Revan.

To be sure, the EU paints a radically different picture but my original point was exactly that - the picture of the Force in the EU isn't really supported by the films. As to Luke in Episode VII, it looks very much like he wetn "full Jedi" in retreating to a secluded world after his failed academy.

The fact he was training multiple apprentices is probably just expedience. Otherwise he might only train two in his entire life, or three at most and that would leave the Jedi tradition very fragile.

Having said that - it seems his strategy failed miserably. One possible explanation might be that multiple apprentices leads to competition and that form of striving is counter-productive to the monastic disciple of the Jedi. Just a thought.


You were saying that the existence of Dark-Siders was in itself a cause or source of imbalance.

Well this is kinda where the new trilogy is a bit sqished into the existing Lore - one interpretation might be that the Sith specifically causes a profound imbalance the way your "average" Dark Sider doesn't.

Dunno, I'm reading off what's in the original films and the prequels.


Still, where did that presence come from? Was it always there? Did it spontaneously manifest? If so, did it happen during Yoda's stay? Did Yoda create it through his own struggles with anger and temptation? You can make scenarios that involve past struggles in that specific location, but there isn't really a need. For all we know, there was nothing special about the cave and Yoda merely induced a transcendental experience in Luke while he was out of sight.

It's unlikely Yoda created it, he never exhibits a loss of control and he's old enough that he's probably worked his demons out centuries ago. We're never told anything about the cave at all, there have been multiple EU explanations, maybe it'll finally be explained in Rebels.

*Shrug*

[lars573]

Much anger I sense in you Montmorency. Disappointed by the Prequels you were. Clouded your judgement it has.

You accused me from drawing on the EU but the "Light Side" is a product of the EU, it isn't mentioned in any of Lucas' films. In Lucas' films there is the Force and the Dark Side of the Force.

Whether you think Lucas' cosmology is silly or Naive is beside the point. Obi Wan says it to Anakin in Episode III "You were the chosen one! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!"

So the Jedi prophecy of the Chosen One says he will destroy the Sith - and that's the last thing Vader does before he dies. There are only two Sith, Vader repents and then kills the Emperor.

From this it is clear that the Sith are the cause of the imbalance. The imbalance is not caused not the numerical difference between the "Godd" Jedi and the "Evil" Sith.

You're right, it's not deep on a philosophical level, I never said it was. The people who are literally trying the find the balance-point on a cosmic scale are the ones trying to make it deep, not me.

As I said, the Jedi are not "Good" as a polar opposite to "Evil", the Jedi are just servants of the Force who appear Good because they are in opposition to the Sith, who are Evil.
Hmm, I sense your training is incomplete. For Lucas does in fact speak of a light side of the force (and indeed a grey ballance point in the middle). But you're correct not in the movies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

[Greyblades]

I like the EU idea that the dark side of the force is a method of developing force affinity that gives a quick and large power boost but in the end has limits whereas the light side is a slow growth method but with greater end potential.

[Beskar]

We all know that they are allegories for rural traditional life (light side) and urban industrialism (dark side).
Luke is some farm boy living his life on a backwards planet, and he is up against the evil dark side with their artificial moons and space cannons.
Luke works with nature, the moisture on his desert planet, to bring harmony and life to the creatures there. Whilst the dark side exploit the natural resources of planets to power their super weapons, and the wanton destruction of the peaceful ecological bliss of Alderaan.
As such, it is the same with the force. The light side is working with harmony within the living force, the dark side exploits it and powers themselves through its destruction.

[Greyblades]

I knew Lucas was a dirty hippy.

[lars573]

We all know that they are allegories for rural traditional life (light side) and urban industrialism (dark side).
Luke is some farm boy living his life on a backwards planet, and he is up against the evil dark side with their artificial moons and space cannons.
Luke works with nature, the moisture on his desert planet, to bring harmony and life to the creatures there. Whilst the dark side exploit the natural resources of planets to power their super weapons, and the wanton destruction of the peaceful ecological bliss of Alderaan.
As such, it is the same with the force. The light side is working with harmony within the living force, the dark side exploits it and powers themselves through its destruction.
And yet Anakin was raised on said same backwater desert planet. So really the difference is happy and secure childhood (Luke) vs unhappy insecure childhood (Anakin).

[Beskar]

And yet Anakin was raised on said same backwater desert planet. So really the difference is happy and secure childhood (Luke) vs unhappy insecure childhood (Anakin).

pre-sequels don't count. :smash:

[lars573]

According to the Mouse lords they do.:whip:

Also they're the better movies anyway. :rtwyes:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hmm, I sense your training is incomplete. For Lucas does in fact speak of a light side of the force (and indeed a grey ballance point in the middle). But you're correct not in the movies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY


According to the Mouse lords they do.:whip:

Also they're the better movies anyway. :rtwyes:

Well - you're clearly insane.

But even allowing for that, Lucas authorised the Clone Wars - it is true - but they don't actually qualify as what used to be call "G" Canon. He didn't write every episode or oversee them all.

Remember, he also authorised The Force Unleashed but that got ditched for Rebels.

[lars573]

Actually Lucas did oversee the Clone Wars. And most mystical force ideas came from Lucas according to Dave Feloni.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://youtu.be/_YnKOptGhPk

this gives voice to a lot of my feelings.

Except I'm not as happy with Finn as he is.