IKEA mafia [Concluded]

[Zack]

Tunnel - Tunnelling or to "tunnel" someone is to very strongly push for one specific person's lynch without being willing to reevaluate or consider others. "OMG, stop tunnelling me, Cory.". Sometimes also referred to as trolley tracking.
atpg has not been tunneling gh

i think it's weird you're accusing atpg specifically of tunneling you

[Askthepizzaguy]

Khaan's response was exceptionally poor coming from "the cop". There's no way Khaan is cop with a night zero peek on GH.


GH, on the other hand, is clearly trying to get in the mindset of the mindless spambot that apparently comprises the entirety of the offsite mafia games we <s>sentenced</s> nominated him for. Need I remind y'all, it's still day 1. Mafia GH would've just yolo'd out of here after a couple posts and let pizza continue to construct his great wall of pizzaboxes and spam. The case against him is entirely stupid and consists of.... worried about him being worried about mafiauniverse or whatever being a huge spam fest? And then rightfully accusing pizza of tunneling... when pizza is/was tunneling? There's one actually worrisome post from him pointing out he'd be off for a bit(something he does basically all the time as mafia) but also has been done a couple times at least as town too, so I'd call that less strong of an indication than Jarema.

Seriously, don't lynch GH day 1.

Cops don't claim that they're worried about posts their peek had made. If GH is town, and Khaan is "the cop", then cop play on the org has fallen way behind the times. The bottom line, where it says don't lynch GH "day 1" is also an unnecessary addition. That implies it would be fine to lynch him later on. I see nothing from either GH or Khaan that makes me want to put it off.

Correct cop play would be to ask the pizza guy to trust Khaan, and go for the also likely to be guilty Jarema. That would have been an easy argument. Khaan defending GH's play is weird, and doesn't read like a cop with a peek either. And I don't believe in masons here either. Because, again, there's nothing "worrisome" about posts made by either your n0 peek or your mason partner.

You can safely toss both ideas, short of a hard claim. And it had better be quick, because I'm not budging if there isn't sufficient time to talk about it.

[GeneralHankerchief]

...he's been doing exactly that though...

[seireikhaan]

If you can't figure out why I'm defending GH over Jarema, then I have no further words for you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you can't figure out why I'm defending GH over Jarema, then I have no further words for you.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/icons/icon14.png

Persuasive.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Am I going to have to do your homework for you?

You're worse than Visor.

[Zack]

...he's been doing exactly that though...
no he hasn't... he's been more than willing to consider other candidates. For most of the day he's been pushing Jarrema. Voting or pushing someone does not mean you're tunneling them.

I also don't get why you're specifically accusing pizza of tunneling you, and not me?

[Askthepizzaguy]

You guys know the definition of tunneling isn't "a townie suspects a townie" right?

Can we agree on that much?!? Am I wasting my breath here? If you're going to brick wall me, there is no happy outcome today.

Just a bunch of really upset villagers and a happy mafia team.

[seireikhaan]

Go ahead and replace me, Sooh. I'm entirely done with this game. Later.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hey, I got plenty of other places to be. If I don't get a real time response I'm not going to keep hanging around.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Pizza, here's what the past day or so has looked like from *my* POV:

ATPG: GH I think you might be scum but you can convince me otherwise

GH: *says literally anything*

ATPG: You're not helping your case there buddy, now you're far more likely to be scum

So you'll excuse me if I'm going to stick to my guns on this.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

AdmiralKleenex (2) - GH, johnhughthom
GH (6) - AdmiralKleenex, Raith Kemmler, El Barto, Golden1Knight, Askthepizzaguy, Choxorn
Visor (1) - Jarema
Jarema (5) - Visor, Al Sips, edse, Punisher, seireikhaan
johnhughthom (1) - Double A

Not voting: atheotes, BSmith

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza, here's what the past day or so has looked like from *my* POV:

ATPG: GH I think you might be scum but you can convince me otherwise

GH: *says literally anything*

ATPG: You're not helping your case there buddy, now you're far more likely to be scum

So you'll excuse me if I'm going to stick to my guns on this.

Okay, let me tell you what it looked like from my POV.

I see a GH that would rather talk about anything else, or say nothing, than look for scums. It's whatever. I could tell you what you said in particular that looked scummy. I don't suppose it matters.

The bottom line is, it's not tunneling when:

1) I have other suspects
2) I would have rather lynched that other suspect for most of the day
3) I keep asking you questions and offering to talk it out, and you'd mostly rather just sit there spitting out one liners and not solving.

Tunneling is not the same thing as suspecting you. When you say that, and it's not appropriate for the context of the game, it doesn't match my reality, and when things don't match my reality I get suspicious.

This is all normal suspicion and nothing extraordinary is going on.

Now then, as it happens, I'd still be of two minds about what to do going forward. But I don't know if I should bother thinking about the game too carefully. Don't know if there's anything I can offer to the game right now that would be positive. But the spirit is still willing, if there were anyone on the other end of this conversation willing to move forward. Let me know what you'd rather do next.

[GeneralHankerchief]

THERE'S NOTHING TO SOLVE

IT'S DAY ONE

:daisy:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Let's suppose I'd be willing to take things at face value. An innocent GH universe.

If you want to look at that universe, I'm sure it would be more productive. But I also don't want to wait around forever for responses, so if real time isn't likely I just wanna take a break.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, got that out of the way. More reasonable post to follow.

[Choxorn]

THERE'S NOTHING TO SOLVE

IT'S DAY ONE

:daisy:

So? It may be true that there's rarely anything of significant substance on Day One, but "rarely" isn't "never."

For instance, I think making posts like this makes you look scummy, and this is one of those rare cases where we can be confident of a scumread on day 1.

[Askthepizzaguy]

THERE'S NOTHING TO SOLVE

IT'S DAY ONE

:daisy:

*throws a plate of spaghetti against the wall*

So we disagree strongly on strategy on day one! Yay!

Somehow I'd still like to do something good today.

[El Barto]

Go ahead and replace me, Sooh. I'm entirely done with this game. Later.
'khaan, are you all right?

[Askthepizzaguy]

How many of you have been sitting and watching this unfold? Just curious.

[El Barto]

I haven't, I've just read the last 50-100 posts and noticed how 'khaan simply balked. GH is still scummy to me, and you haven't answered my question of why Jarrema can die in a fire. (and also why you don't like me but that can be a carryover from my extremely kawaii antics on CFC)

[Askthepizzaguy]

I haven't, I've just read the last 50-100 posts and noticed how 'khaan simply balked. GH is still scummy to me, and you haven't answered my question of why Jarrema can die in a fire. (and also why you don't like me but that can be a carryover from my extremely kawaii antics on CFC)

El Barto- I adore you as a person and a player.

I felt several of your opening posts were scummy. That's all it meant. It was mild and vague.

AORN: Not sure. I wouldn't call you a villager yet. But if I were to look at a universe where somehow GH and Khaan or Khaan-slot and myself and my n0 peek and Visor and yourself, let's say, were all villagers, the game becomes much simpler.

Jarema always gets lynched today, and I might go choxorn after that, or peek him.

[GeneralHankerchief]

What we have here is a case of people judging me by their standards when they should be judging me by my standards.

We've all made the "lol GH is older than the dinosaurs" type of jokes when nominating me to the championships, but there's truth behind those statements, and you all know I'm pretty stuck in my ways. One of those ways is me taking the first couple of rounds to really warm up in a game and take it all in. Well, that was the case on the .Org for years and years.

It was also the case for a while during the revival starting last year. But at a certain point, this changed. I think it was Visor's Snake Cult game where he brought in a lot of folks from outside. And then, pressing down hard on the gas right from the start became the new normal. People are now demanding reads lists and slapping themselves on the back for getting cases down on Day Friggin One. And that's just not how I operate.

I was able to slide by it for a while, but after the nomination, I know what's in store for me. So I'm trying to adjust. And when people like Zack and you are asking me what I think about the state of the game and making me do stuff I'm far more used to doing (and am far more comfortable with doing) in the endgame on Day Friggin One, of course it's going to sound artificial. Because I have one of two options in these types of scenarios:

Option 1) Come up with cases on people, and have it stand out because the cases are forced.

Option 2) Tell the truth, admit you have no reads, and then come under fire because seeing town/null reads left and right is a classic scumtell, and is, as a matter of fact, what did me in the most recent game before this one.

So yeah, I'm a bit uncomfortable right now, and I'm slightly more than a bit exasperated at this turn of events because I'm trying, but it's obviously not enough.

Now, I could lie to you right now and say that I have a case on somebody right now. That I've done my reads, that I've even attempted to do my reads, and here's what I have down so far. Or, I could tell you the truth and say I have jack squat.

Well, I have jack squat. Right now.

The choice is now up to you to determine how to react to this. This time, you're the one who has two options:

Option 1) Lynch me, wait for me to flip town, and lose my voice for the rest of the game because of the "no talking after death" rule, which I also hate but we'll leave that one for another time.

Option 2) Leave me alive and wait for me to do my own thing at my own pace.

You forget that the times may have changed, but I haven't. Not yet. Judge me on me and not the meta.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@ GH
As an aside, GH look at your day one in Mafia v Cult and compare it to this game. There's enough of a difference where it raised my eyebrows. If that helps you understand it, good. If not, there are more constructive things to do regardless.

[Zack]

Go ahead and replace me, Sooh. I'm entirely done with this game. Later.

seriously?

[Zack]

gh, I think you misunderstand the point of all this. While yeah, d1 reads are going to be mostly crap, it's nice to be able to look back at those reads on later days, especially where spew is concerned (i.e. a dead scumbag's reads and thoughts on d1 can be really nice information to have).

[Zack]

and while finding scum d1 is lol, clearing townies is a very real thing and viable straight from d1.

[El Barto]

El Barto- I adore you as a person and a player.
Squeeee

I felt several of your opening posts were scummy. That's all it meant. It was mild and vague.
Scummy for being scummy or for not being scummy?

Jarema always gets lynched today, and I might go choxorn after that, or peek him.
OK, right, but… why Jarrema?

btw who/what's AORN?

What we have here is a case of people judging me by their standards when they should be judging me by my standards.
Eeeehhhh? This makes very little sense if any at all.

[Zack]

aorn = as of right now

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am composing a post for you, GH. I'll put a tl;dr in it.

[El Barto]

aorn = as of right now
Mmkay.

[Zack]

I'll put a tl;dr in it.

sigh of relief

[El Barto]

D'you think Pizza'll ever get the hang of using spoiler tags?

[Askthepizzaguy]

What we have here is a case of people judging me by their standards when they should be judging me by my standards.

We've all made the "lol GH is older than the dinosaurs" type of jokes when nominating me to the championships, but there's truth behind those statements, and you all know I'm pretty stuck in my ways. One of those ways is me taking the first couple of rounds to really warm up in a game and take it all in. Well, that was the case on the .Org for years and years.

It was also the case for a while during the revival starting last year. But at a certain point, this changed. I think it was Visor's Snake Cult game where he brought in a lot of folks from outside. And then, pressing down hard on the gas right from the start became the new normal. People are now demanding reads lists and slapping themselves on the back for getting cases down on Day Friggin One. And that's just not how I operate.

I was able to slide by it for a while, but after the nomination, I know what's in store for me. So I'm trying to adjust. And when people like Zack and you are asking me what I think about the state of the game and making me do stuff I'm far more used to doing (and am far more comfortable with doing) in the endgame on Day Friggin One, of course it's going to sound artificial. Because I have one of two options in these types of scenarios:

Option 1) Come up with cases on people, and have it stand out because the cases are forced.

Option 2) Tell the truth, admit you have no reads, and then come under fire because seeing town/null reads left and right is a classic scumtell, and is, as a matter of fact, what did me in the most recent game before this one.

So yeah, I'm a bit uncomfortable right now, and I'm slightly more than a bit exasperated at this turn of events because I'm trying, but it's obviously not enough.

Now, I could lie to you right now and say that I have a case on somebody right now. That I've done my reads, that I've even attempted to do my reads, and here's what I have down so far. Or, I could tell you the truth and say I have jack squat.

Well, I have jack squat. Right now.

The choice is now up to you to determine how to react to this. This time, you're the one who has two options:

Option 1) Lynch me, wait for me to flip town, and lose my voice for the rest of the game because of the "no talking after death" rule, which I also hate but we'll leave that one for another time.

Option 2) Leave me alive and wait for me to do my own thing at my own pace.

You forget that the times may have changed, but I haven't. Not yet. Judge me on me and not the meta.

Response to quoted-

I did read it all, and that is mostly fine and good. I have some issues with it, because reasons- Namely, you have been more engaged and looked for more villagers in a previous game not that long ago, as I just said. But, I'm going to call a mercy rule on this. People gettin' irritated, let me just say I've been in situations where villagers were a lot more tunnelly and uncooperative than this game. By leaps and bounds. And it was probably the single biggest weakness of those towns. There has to be a point where everyone realizes nothing is getting done by going in circles. So my position on things are- I think GH looks different and there are real reasons why people could honestly think he's scummy, I think Jarema acted scummy, I didn't totally buy Khaan's defense of GH. And I still have issues with what you're saying right now.

But all of that means very little because, the points have been made, they are what they are. And nothing more will be helpful whether those opinions are correct, or incorrect. Basically, it will just lead to damaging the game more. So, mercy rule means I'm not going to say you're suspicious. Now all I want to talk about is the universe where you're innocent. I don't know if I can really put Khaan in that universe as also innocent, and I don't want to let sub-related stuff impact the game. But for the sake of convenience let's say I put Khaan-slot in that same category of innocent, despite my misgivings about how he chose to defend you.

Then what does the picture of the game look like?

I think Visor is villagery enough. He's on enough villagers' town lists that he's probably on the mafia's villager lists.
I'm not lynching Punisher.

You don't lynch, in that universe-

Askthepizzaguy
Punisher
GH
Khaan-slot
Visor

That's a start.

(IF) Jarema is guilty, those pushing him immediately look great.
(IF) Jarema is innocent, choxorn looks bad because of his vote pattern and what he's choosing to comment on. It's weak but it's something notable.

Issue with lynching Jarema if he's innocent- we learn nothing. Yes, we lynched a scummy townie. And we saved a not-scum GH. By killing a townie.

So what if we just lynched a scum today instead?

TL;DR

Who would people suggest is scum in the universe where Pizza, Punisher, GH, Khaan, Visor, AND Jarema are innocent?

Let's play the game of we're extremely wrong. What does the game look like then?

If you play that game and it's right, somehow the game becomes probably the most productive and badass day one for village ever, despite the sloppiness of how we got there.

Only issue with that game:

If Jarema is guilty, you won't be able to resolve my slot except by lynch, because I proposed this idea. And it can be argued I used any excuse to lynch GH instead of Jarema despite scum-reading Jarema repeatedly.

It's a risk I'd be willing to take. I just want to know if my fellow villagers are equally daring.

[Zack]

khaan was obviously defending gh as a friend. I don't get why that's so hard to see, I'd appreciate if people stop pretending it was alignment-indicative in any way.

[Zack]

I'd be totally fine with just lynching the scummiest lurker.

[Askthepizzaguy]

khaan was obviously defending gh as a friend. I don't get why that's so hard to see, I'd appreciate if people stop pretending it was alignment-indicative in any way.

I'd be inclined to play it that way regardless of whether I think it's true or not.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd be totally fine with just lynching the scummiest lurker.

Runs into a lot of the same problems if that person is a villager. I have a super secret villager inside the people who haven't posted very much that I don't want lynched either.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Who would people suggest is scum in the universe where Pizza, Punisher, GH, Khaan, Visor, AND Jarema are innocent?

Let's play the game of we're extremely wrong. What does the game look like then?

I don't know and I'm not going to think about it. :laugh4: If you can accept that, at least for Day One, then I think we've come to an agreement.


I'd be totally fine with just lynching the scummiest lurker.

This is a good idea and I can get behind it.

[Zack]

Pretend it's not d1. The stubborn refusal to contribute because "it's day ONE" is irritating.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Pretend it's not d1. The stubborn refusal to contribute because "it's day ONE" is irritating.

I'll contribute in my own way, don't force me down one path out of many.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Look, we've got different ideas on how to approach the game.

We don't have to be a well oiled machine here. We don't have to agree on everything, we don't even have to like the compromise.

But I would suggest the folks here who are present and in a big dispute about how to proceed should compromise.

And the compromise is finding someone to vote for. We can pick up the differences in theory discussion in postgame.

Agreed?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Compromise proposal:

Lynch choxorn

If you don't like that idea

Lynch Jarema

If you don't like that idea, suggest another. But let's avoid lynching the people who are completely absent.

Can we do this?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sure.

What do we think about edse's reaction to Jarema and the requisite vote?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'll have to take a look. Gimme sec

[El Barto]

khaan was obviously defending gh as a friend. I don't get why that's so hard to see, I'd appreciate if people stop pretending it was alignment-indicative in any way.
That can happen, but I'm more worried about his asking for a replacement.

I have a super secret villager inside the people who haven't posted very much that I don't want lynched either.
Really.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I've got my response ready to go, but am curious where Zack stands.

Zack how do you feel about edse?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Really.

I have a magic bag full of goodies this game. I can clear a lot of people it would seem.

[Zack]

I've got my response ready to go, but am curious where Zack stands.

Zack how do you feel about edse?

I already implied he was my scummiest null read.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is edse's entire contribution to play

A passive aggressive one Vote: Jarema

Pro-
If Jarema is guilty, edse is lock clear, it takes a clear stand, gives a reason.

Con-
If Jarema is innocent, this is an easy enough vote. Edse can be scum here, but it's not a lock.

I'm looking at Jarema innocent universe as a possibility, I don't know if I want to get rid of someone who would be lock clear if Jarema were guilty, based on only this vote. Especially when Jarema-guilty universe looks very likely in a vacuum.

Zack agreeing to lynch Edse today if edse is guilty would be really good for Zack, who I'd otherwise have trouble clearing.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I already implied he was my scummiest null read.

Ok my brain didn't copy that.

I think edse-guilty universe and edse lynch d1 results in live clear townies and a probable town win.

Edse innocent universe is pretty bad tho. I also don't know how to feel confident that's the way to go. It's not like today was that unusual for edse.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't like to lynch someone who can potentially be lock cleared by Jarema's guilty flip.

In turn, I wouldn't want to lynch inside of GH and Zack who would also be really clear due to edse's guilty flip.

Is there someone who we have even less information on?

[El Barto]

I have a magic bag full of goodies this game. I can clear a lot of people it would seem.
Lemme guess: you've peeked on Jarrema n0 and that's why you insist on lynching him.

I already implied he was my scummiest null read.
Is it just my fever, or is there a contradiction between someone being a null read and their being scummy?

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, I won't get that fancy.

If I say we can lynch someone, that's not a lie.

I've had to deal with too much fancy seer garbage that almost always destroys towns that I promise in an OOG way that I'd never fricking do that to the people I like playing games with. I won't even do it to the people I don't play games with.

I won't give a guilty peek on a villager as the real cop. I also won't say we can lynch my peeks. That's bs and I think we all know it.

[Raith Kemmler]

I don't like to lynch someone who can potentially be lock cleared by Jarema's guilty flip.

In turn, I wouldn't want to lynch inside of GH and Zack who would also be really clear due to edse's guilty flip.

Is there someone who we have even less information on?

We never know anything about John. Not a revealing flip without some wagons ahoy, but he's a pretty grand 'that guy' to take out in a pinch.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I might be building a bridge too far here with some of the worlds I'm constructing.

To get us all on the same page-

Let's say someone claims cop with an innocent result on X.

Let's say someone counterclaims cop with an innocent result on Y.

Cop 1 or Cop 2 might be guilty. X and Y might also be guilty.

But, there's one likely universe where X can be lock cleared. Don't lynch X first, ever. The chances are high that you lose the game, and there's a logically more productive and safe option, even if you lynch outside of the claims.

Basically, find someone who isn't cop1 or cop2 or X or Y, if you were to go that route.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I don't like to lynch someone who can potentially be lock cleared by Jarema's guilty flip.

In turn, I wouldn't want to lynch inside of GH and Zack who would also be really clear due to edse's guilty flip.

Is there someone who we have even less information on?

Well, BSmith and edse just have sign up posts. Golden1Knight's only post is a vote for me (no statement to go along with), and Punisher and john have an equal amount of posts as edse.

We could also do Jarema and lock clear a couple of folks.

[Askthepizzaguy]

We never know anything about John. Not a revealing flip without some wagons ahoy, but he's a pretty grand 'that guy' to take out in a pinch.

That's probably viable. He flips guilty, then you are lock clear.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, BSmith and edse just have sign up posts. Golden1Knight's only post is a vote for me (no statement to go along with), and Punisher and john have an equal amount of posts as edse.

We could also do Jarema and lock clear a couple of folks.

You mean atheotes, not edse, I believe.

Mmm, we're getting some good intel from this exercise regardless. But there will be diminishing returns if it continues.

Why not choxorn? Does anyone actually object to choxorn dying, why or why not.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Yeah, meant atheotes.

Lemme do a quick reread of Chox's stuff.

[Jarema]

I think that lynching Choxorn is better idea than lynching me.
I also like GH posts about his d1 activity.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Huh, I thought he had more posts.

One joke, one question of why he was defending me so heavily (probably null since he doesn't hang out on this forum as much), and chiming in at the height of my "RARGH IT'S DAY ONE LEAVE ME ALONE" bit an hour or so ago.

Unless you think he's more scummy or his flip lock clears somebody, I'd go for someone else.

[Zack]

I object to choxorn dying aorn.

[Askthepizzaguy]

El Barto

Help me solve you, point at a scumbag and suggest we lynch there right now. Make it someone who isn't Jarema, GH, me, or a 0 or 1 poster.

Whether we follow your advice or not, and I might do so on a whim, it would be helpful. Shoot in the dark, what do you hit?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Jarema

Was that a vote? If so you might want to format it properly and perhaps unvote just to be safe.

@Zack

I'm listening, why do you object?

[Zack]

choxorn seems town to me.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Isoing Zack atm

Starting to think Visor might have been right.

[Zack]

I feel like there is a wolf in {GeneralHankerchief, Askthepizzaguy, Visor}.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I feel like there is a wolf in {GeneralHankerchief, Askthepizzaguy, Visor}.


Unvote
Vote: AdmiralKleenex

Hard claim Mason

Not a fake claim

I am asking for villagers to follow me for day 1

[Zack]

Unvote
Vote: AdmiralKleenex

Hard claim Mason

Not a fake claim

I am asking for villagers to follow me for day 1

what?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hard claim with enough hours to go that, if need be, I could ask my partner to hard claim it with me.

Under zero pressure.

Your move.

[Zack]

i repeat my question

what?

[Askthepizzaguy]

i repeat my question

what?

Lynching you provides me with the most information at present.

[Zack]

don't make me ask a third time

[Askthepizzaguy]

Sure, I could go the irritating cheeky route, but I've already probably ticked off enough people for one game.

This is where I am at:

If Zack is scum then

GH is lock clear by votes by both parties
Johnhughthom is lock clear by his 2nd vote
Visor is lock clear for suspecting Zack early after putting him as town
I am lock clear (too bad I'm already always lock clear) for calling for his head d1 with my hard claim
My mason partner is lock clear because I must always be murdered thereby proving my claim and locking him clear.

That's five villagers lock clear and 1 dead scum.

[Zack]

too bad zack isn't scum

[Askthepizzaguy]

too bad zack isn't scum

AdmiralKleenex, on the other hand.

[Zack]

what caused your hardclaim and vote, i don't see the progression

[Sooh]

Vote count:

AdmiralKleenex (3) - GH, johnhughthom, askthepizzaguy
GH (5) - AdmiralKleenex, Raith Kemmler, El Barto, Golden1Knight, Choxorn
Jarema (5) - Visor, Al Sips, edse, Punisher, seireikhaan
johnhughthom (1) - Double A
Choxorn (1) - Jarema

Not voting: atheotes, BSmith

Just under 24 hours to go!

http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png

(I am counting Jarema's bolding of Choxorn's name as a vote. I would appreciate that votes were cast in the format Vote: [name] from now on so I don't miss anything.)

[Raith Kemmler]

Atpg, claim seems nice, but Zack case is a bit of a stretch? I can vote switch, but the data thing is kind of looping you I think as I'm not following you either at this point.


(I am counting Jarema's bolding of Choxorn's name as a vote. I would appreciate that votes were cast in the format Vote: [name] from now on so I don't miss anything.)

The formatting in this thread is too damn high complicated!

[Sooh]

The formatting in this thread is too damn high complicated!I have faith that you can do it <3

[Askthepizzaguy]

what caused your hardclaim and vote, i don't see the progression

Sure. I'll go into that as well. My accusation right or wrong, you deserve that much.

I'll be serious about this.

So why AdmiralKleenex

Visor's point on Zack here, which I still feel isn't particularly strong... but Visor is one of the players I feel understands the game better (this early in the game) than I do, and even if I don't necessarily follow his reasoning, I think he's a villager this game and I trust him.


idk how you could legitimately have a wolf read on anyone at this point

atpg, i want your thoughts on this post in particular

because it basically stopped my village read of zack dead in its tracks

(and IMO, the jokes between gh and zack could easily be w/w especially because zack will surely find a different focus later today, and I can't even remember if GH is voting zack)

Then focus on a mason


ATPG, you had no reaction to Jarrema's post before visor swooped in. Now he's lock scum? I don't get it.

Doesn't have me as scummy. Feels a lot like his D1 in the past several games where he was scum, where he's front and center and asking questions and challenging opinions.

Which is how he'd play as town, too, obviously.

So how does that make him scum? It doesn't, and Zack knows that he can't really be caught on day one.

So that means he'll be the member of the scum team pushing for mislynches and cutting villagers' balls off by defending other villagers. He might even defend his scum buddies too. He's gonna make sure 3 wolves survive day one.


I'm fine with jarema/gh wagons. I'm null on jarema but at this point the spew will be informative.

This position is great for scum-Zack if Jarema is innocent and so is GH. This position is also ok for scum Zack if Jarema is scum. Especially since he begins undermining that wagon by noting the speed in which that wagon formed a couple posts later.

I also think the Jarema wagon is largely pure. I think literally all of these are villagers to varying degrees of strength. So whether the lynch is on a scum or not, Zack is smudging a lot of villagers here, imo. There can be at most 1 scum in this wagon, and I'm not sold there is one:

Jarema (5) - Visor, Al Sips, Double A, edse, Punisher



Next:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?151575-IKEA-mafia-In-Play&p=2053692896&viewfull=1#post2053692896

This post.

I think Al Sips is ok.
I know I'm townie.
Nulls are nulls.
Choxorn is null but Zack doesn't want to lynch there even to generate information.
Double A looks ok to me.
Edse is himself but it would be easy to argue he needs to die. Edse is lock clear if Zack dies and is guilty.
El Barto could be scum, but it's interesting to note Zack barely talks about this scum read and doesn't push it. Could be townie too.
GH gets a d1 pass, based on how everything has gone down. Plus, GH is lock clear if Zack is guilty. Khaan and GH together probably not w/w. GH can be a wolf, but Zack wolf eliminates that idea.
Null person. Most of these nulls have to be villagers, and Zack is advocating shooting in there.
Jarema is scummy imo. Zack has him null.
John is lock if Zack is scum. John will lynch Zack d1.
Punisher is lock if Zack is scum. Zack calls him scummy.
Raith looks ok. Low information but ok.
Khaan- ?? Defense of GH does seem ooc for a scum khaan. He probably wouldn't care. I doubt he's a cop but he's probably town anyway.
Visor- probably townie.

But later on, Zack suggests there's a scum inside a mason, GH, and Visorslash, two of whom he's had as villager and the third is off the table for d1 due to possibilities of locking him clear.


I feel like there is a wolf in {GeneralHankerchief, Askthepizzaguy, Visor}.

When we get to the part of the discussion where more information happens, during the Zack-Pizza-GH conference post Khaan sub-out, Zack's contribution seems less enthusiastic. There's also very little nuance or volunteered information in Zack's posts during this time. This is a point in the game where the potential for scum-spew is huge, and a lot teeters in the balance, particularly with Zack being a prominent portion of the discussion. But he fades and it's mostly me and GH talking, with random interjections by others. He's quiet for a long time (in terms of "real time") and doesn't really have an argument why edse or why choxorn must be spared or killed. It's just political positioning, from what I can tell.

Summary

Zack has pushed on too many townies and suggested lynches which are low accountability and low information for town.

Defense of choxorn makes no sense here. He's got no reason to defend choxorn specifically, but as a wolf, he probably won't want to lynch choxorn today if choxorn is guilty, especially when there's a wealth of others to push. If choxorn is innocent, defending a villager is also good because of WIFOM and for crowd control purposes. What better way to discredit pizza than to be correct about choxorn's alignment.

But there's no real progression there from null to townie. Choxorn's pop in was wolfy to me. Dunno why Zack concluded he shouldn't be lynched, especially after he's an active participant in a discussion which says we shouldn't lynch a plethora of players because of how much information we'd have on them in the event X or Y flips guilty.

Zack becomes clear if edse were guilty. If he were even pushing that hard for an edse lynch, which he isn't. I also don't trust that to be the most likely outcome of that lynch, given how I feel about Zack.

GH's only scum read of the day is also Zack. If GH, Pizza, and Visor all think Zack can be guilty on day one? I trust that. Especially if I think 2 of those are townies and GH has been strongly defended by Khaan. I don't trust GH enough to lock clear him, but I know a route to doing so.

TL;DR

Help a mason out, and lynch Zack. He is a wealth of information if he's scum, and the scum team neither wants nor expects him to be dead this early. He also keeps suggesting actions which lead to villager lynches that I know of.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I hard claim it now because I want to illustrate how I know Zack's suggestions have been bad for town.

And because it's also a claim scums don't use. And because it was done under pressure with time left, especially, is ridiculously poor if I were scum.

Town needs an anchor it can rely on and know is town. This claim is too poor to be a scum one. I need village to trust me and help a brother out.

[Askthepizzaguy]

This will never be rescinded and is not a fake claim. If need be I can reveal my partner and have them also hard claim with me.

Don't make me do this, although I did make it obvious.

[Visor]

spicy read pizza

nice to have an active d1 on the org

i will read all i missed when i get home

[Zack]

What is the equivalent of lolcatting for villagers

[Sooh]

Mod is going to sleep and will be back in several hours.

Have fun!

[Visor]

What is the equivalent of lolcatting for villagers

its still lolcatting

just ask leo

[Askthepizzaguy]

What is the equivalent of lolcatting for villagers

Not posting, probably. Although we did see someone falsely accused by the actual seer of being guilty, admit his guilt for all of the day in the champions exhibition game. So another spicy option is to simply admit you're guilty for the luls.

[Zack]

its still lolcatting

just ask leo
Then imagine I am posting lolcats now

Have fun

[Askthepizzaguy]

Real advice: spend the rest of the day pointing at people you want us to look at tomorrow if you flip innocent, and say who you think is villagery before you die.

Is the best way to be productive in this situation. Might even change my opinion too.

[Zack]

I won't get into why chox should never be lynched, but remember my hard defense of him when I flip town.

[Zack]

Real advice: spend the rest of the day pointing at people you want us to look at tomorrow if you flip innocent, and say who you think is villagery before you die.

Is the best way to be productive in this situation. Might even change my opinion too.

nah

[Visor]

Vote: admiralkleenex

yolo

[Zack]

Any spew I leave is meaningless because I was lynched and not killed (and lynched before there was even an opportunity to decide not to kill me).

[Visor]

jarema/zack w/w can be quite possible

[Zack]

So I am going to just play video games and do homework the rest of this day phase. Probably have some snacks too, since I finally bought groceries today (the reason I was "being quiet" lol).

Assassin's Creed IV is fun so far despite its flaws. GH would like it, it's basically a pirate game.

[Zack]

jarema/zack w/w can be quite possible
Please analyze my spew in advance so everyone feels silly when I flip town. (this is where I would put the thumb smiley)

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am going to bed, just so people know the reason I'm not responding.

I will be available for basically all of the rest of the day phase after sleeps. But I really need other villagers to take the football and run with it here, I've long been an advocate of the dirty work needing to be done by the vanillagers.

Even if you do me a solid and lynch Zack here, do not rest/relent/skate. Please assume I'm already dead, look at worlds where I'm correct, look at the one where Zack is town, too.

GN and GL

[El Barto]

No, I won't get that fancy.

If I say we can lynch someone, that's not a lie.

I've had to deal with too much fancy seer garbage that almost always destroys towns that I promise in an OOG way that I'd never fricking do that to the people I like playing games with. I won't even do it to the people I don't play games with.

I won't give a guilty peek on a villager as the real cop. I also won't say we can lynch my peeks. That's bs and I think we all know it.
So you won't get fancy for us? Too bad. The peek is strong in this one.

El Barto

Help me solve you, point at a scumbag and suggest we lynch there right now. Make it someone who isn't Jarema, GH, me, or a 0 or 1 poster.

Whether we follow your advice or not, and I might do so on a whim, it would be helpful. Shoot in the dark, what do you hit?
Anyone not posting, simply to force them to show and not make mistakes. We can't have the same as happened in the CFC game last week where the only people posting were the dead players. So… atheotes, BSmith, jht, Punisher/Mat93 (seriously, why can't people use one single name across all forums?), AA.
I also suspect you a bit (paranoia is a state policy) but I don't think you'd agree with us lynching you.
Now, people suspected for other reasons… GH because he's being testy on purpose. So I'm keeping my vote on him. Visor… you never know. But some fellow has made aggressive statements regarding this.
Ah, and if GH (the real one, not the wannabe) flips scum then we should look at the 'khaan more closely.

For the record, the flu is strong with me, but what are, exactly, your links between edse and the GH-wannabe and what are/were your suspicions of Jarrema based on? I might have missed it. Bye for now.

What is the equivalent of lolcatting for villagers
No such thing as a lolcatting equivalent.

[BSmith]

Alright - I think I am caught up. Weekend opening means bad timing for BSmith. I was going to say I am the only mason here that I know of, but now that Pizza claimed I guess there is one for real in this game. Since it is within my obligation to help a fellow mason out if I am able, I'll vote: AdmiralKleenex. I will take Pizza at his word and help to see where this goes.

(to be clear I am NOT claiming to be Pizza's mason partner in this game - just trying to poorly inject a RL reference into the game)

[El Barto]

All you're doing is come in and say that you'll vote for whomever Pizza wants you to. That's not very constructive.

[Raith Kemmler]

Kind of want to lynch Bsmith for that entrance. Friendly but a bit over compensation? I haven't been here but I'm here now? Would evil Bsmith ignore or make light of that?

[Choxorn]

Pizza, why do you think I'm scum?
AdmiralKleeZack, why do you think I'm not scum?

[Golden1Knight]

Vote: AdmiralKleenex

[Zack]

So I am going to just play video games and do homework the rest of this day phase. Probably have some snacks too, since I finally bought groceries today (the reason I was "being quiet" lol).

Assassin's Creed IV is fun so far despite its flaws. GH would like it, it's basically a pirate game.
I had some pretzels

[Zack]

they were good pretzels

i like pretzels

[Zack]

thoughts on pretzels?

[Raith Kemmler]

Best when dipped in cheese. The unhealthy kind preferably, but not that batter crap. Standards.

[Jarema]

unvote; vote: AdmiralKleenex


thank you Sooh for counting my previous vote

[Zack]

jarema please give your thoughts on pretzels

[Sooh]

Vote count:

AdmiralKleenex (7) - GH, johnhughthom, askthepizzaguy, Visor, BSmith, Golden1Knight, Jarema
GH (4) - AdmiralKleenex, Raith Kemmler, El Barto, Choxorn
Jarema (4) - Al Sips, edse, Punisher, seireikhaan
johnhughthom (1) - Double A

Not voting: atheotes

[Visor]

Khaan should get his arse back in the game.

We get it, you like playing with GH. But its a game, and nobody has immunity from a D1 lynch, that is unfair on the rest of us.

Khaan spewed himself town thanks to that.

[Visor]

Jaremas posts continue to be poor.

[Zack]

Visor. Pretzels.

[Zack]

unvote, vote: jarrema

[Visor]

you know i never had the american style pretzels when i went over there

[Visor]

Visor. Pretzels.

this is a convincing argument

[Visor]

Unvote; Vote: Jarema

lets make things spicy

[Zack]

me gusta

[Visor]

it is currently 6-6

i am interested to see who votes where

[Zack]

I still don't get why claim there

[Zack]

it is currently 6-6

i am interested to see who votes where

also i approve of this strategy

fwiw i am munching on pretzels this very second

[edse]

Talking about pretzels to give the impression that you really don't care if you die, while you actually still care.

[atheotes]

Its D1 right? you guys are crazy!

Vote: AdmiralKleenex

[edse]

Pizza dropped a definite number of 3 Mafioso, I never saw him say he's assuming 3. Do we know it's 3?

[Zack]

Knew I could count on atheotes to vote for town Zack.

[Zack]

Talking about pretzels to give the impression that you really don't care if you die, while you actually still care.
I never intended to give that impression. The point is that I don't care to defend myself. I will instead eat pretzels.

Find better shade to throw.

[Visor]

Pizza dropped a definite number of 3 Mafioso, I never saw him say he's assuming 3. Do we know it's 3?

3 or 4

given sooh is from DM probably 4

[Al Sipsclar]

Unvote; vote: AdmiralKleenex. I hate pretzels. Too much sodium and refined carbohydrates.

[Zack]

Unvote; vote: AdmiralKleenex. I hate pretzels. Too much sodium and refined carbohydrates.
Moving off jarrema at crucial moment and trying to play it off with fluff is noted.

[Zack]

This is where I give a hearty laugh at pizza expressing a desire to village together (with me), and also note how boring it is when most people on this site are content to simply sheep atpg.

I also use the roll eyes smiley, which is a sure fire scum tell when used in response to pizza.

And I'd like to finish by asking visor why I would say that thing as mafia. My play so far has clearly indicated a lack of concern for how I might sound.

There's probably something I'm forgetting. Good night, I might not make it back before eod, whenever that is.

[Double A]

fyi I started working out and can barely move my arms after two days

not playing video games this time

will get caught up later

[johnhughthom]

Unvote; Vote: Jarema

[atheotes]

Knew I could count on atheotes to vote for town Zack.

:inquisitive: When i made that vote, i dint even realize who you were. I had only read the last page and saw a vote shift.
Now that i am reading, i realized your were Zack around post 13X.

[Jarema]

who are pretzels?

[Visor]

who are pretzels?

thats your question?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Enough with the pretzels.

[Visor]

Enough with the pretzels.

You can be annoyed as a player, but not as a mod. It isn't your game to force the players to post how you like

[GeneralHankerchief]

You can be annoyed as a player, but not as a mod. It isn't your game to force the players to post how you like

I can force them to not spam, which is what I perceive all of this pretzels discussion to be.

If you'd like to continue this discussion, feel free to PM me or use the Policy Discussion thread.

[Choxorn]

Jarema is more scummy than zAcK, for sure.

Unvote, Vote: Jarema

[Raith Kemmler]

7 hours till end of day.

Very clustered voting. Not surprising with the high volume posters making accusations, but not sure how to read that wagonomics.


This is where I give a hearty laugh at pizza expressing a desire to village together (with me), and also note how boring it is when most people on this site are content to simply sheep atpg.


Unvote; Vote: Jarema

John took deep offense at your bad mouthing the community! Or maybe he hates Jarema. Who knows? Votes without rational ahoy. GK, if I vote for you will give me an impression about things currently?


Enough with the pretzels.

GH and Zack are very unlikely to be Mafia together.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pokes my village

Wonders why several of them not doing me a solid here

Continue on I guess

[Sooh]

Vote count:

AdmiralKleenex (7) - GH, askthepizzaguy, BSmith, Golden1Knight, Jarema, atheotes, Al Sips
GH (2) - Raith Kemmler, El Barto
Jarema (7) - edse, Punisher, seireikhaan, AdmiralKleenex, Visor, johnhughthom, Choxorn
johnhughthom (1) - Double A

Not voting: none

http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png

Slightly less than 6 hours to go.

[Askthepizzaguy]

edse

Not that it should matter especially, but I know Zack was pushing more than one villager today and then suggested you for death when the idea was to pull off of GH and Jarema. If you're a villager this should be interesting stuff to you. You are also lock clear if Zack is scum. As such, your assistance would be appreciated. Also your post 374 looks indicative that you'd be receptive to this idea.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Jarema is more scummy than zAcK, for sure.

Unvote, Vote: Jarema
Choxorn probably always a wolf this game, regardless of the alignments of Zack or Jarema.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Choxorn probably always a wolf this game, regardless of the alignments of Zack or Jarema.

How do you get that out of that post?

Genuinely curious.

[Raith Kemmler]

How do you get that out of that post?

Genuinely curious.

Phrasing with assurance at the end coupled with bandwagon timing looks dirty opportunitistic.

[Raith Kemmler]

Unvote;
Vote [Admiral Kleenex]

Less out of Zack guilt and more because I don't want to be one the same wagon ad Chox today.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yeah, I don't get why Khaan is defending GH that strongly unless they're scumbuddies, mason partners, or Khaan has a N0 peak and used it on GH. GH's posts just don't feel right to me, so I don't get why town Khaan would get a town read of GH unless masons or cops or something.

Vote: GeneralHankerchief

Pushing for a cop or mason to be outed.

I happen to be a mason so I know I'm not about to cause one to happen when I pushed on GH.

I also don't believe for a moment that Khaan's posts defending GH were cop result based. Because of how they were phased to include universes where GH might be guilty. You don't do that as cop.

And there's sufficient actual villagers pushing GH at this time that this is a safe maneuver for a scum and possibly forces villager claims.


So? It may be true that there's rarely anything of significant substance on Day One, but "rarely" isn't "never."

For instance, I think making posts like this makes you look scummy, and this is one of those rare cases where we can be confident of a scumread on day 1.

Opportunistic piling on when GH is under heavy pressure.


Pizza, why do you think I'm scum?
AdmiralKleeZack, why do you think I'm not scum?

Solving question at Zack.

Now read the posts in between this post and the post where he ties the vote between Zack and Jarema.

This is villagery behavior? Or wolf howling?

You decide, I guess. I'll be dead so someone will have to follow up on it.

[Raith Kemmler]

Can we lynch Chox instead?

[Askthepizzaguy]

My conclusion is that choxorn has no process, not that he really does when he villages, but there's a huge disconnect between what a villager with no knowledge should be thinking and doing, and what choxorn is doing tying those wagons.

It's even wolfy if Zack is a villager. There's really no reason to re-tie it up.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Can we lynch Chox instead?

Zack's flip gives me/everyone more data. Please follow through.

Choxorn is fine to be roasted and toasted d2 if you like.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The number of villagers cleared with a Zack guilty flip was like 5 or something. Just gotta iso my posts and you'll find the post that says who is cleared and why.

Choxorn flips guilty, doesn't clear a lot of villagers, and he's in a deep enough hole he never escapes here imo. People aren't going to forget. I know I have low expectations sometimes and it's dangerous to assume villagers will follow through, but Zack flips wolf means choxorn never survives this game. And Zack villager flip, choxorn's behavior today still looks wrong enough to be a top candidate next day.

I pushed choxorn as a candidate and that's partly what outed zack assuming he is outed, because there's not a ton of process from Zack to go from null on choxorn to don't lynch him because no reasons given. This happened just before I accused Zack.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Sure, I could go the irritating cheeky route, but I've already probably ticked off enough people for one game.

This is where I am at:

If Zack is scum then

GH is lock clear by votes by both parties
Johnhughthom is lock clear by his 2nd vote
Visor is lock clear for suspecting Zack early after putting him as town
I am lock clear (too bad I'm already always lock clear) for calling for his head d1 with my hard claim
My mason partner is lock clear because I must always be murdered thereby proving my claim and locking him clear.

That's five villagers lock clear and 1 dead scum.
xyz

[Raith Kemmler]

Just noticed this as I checked end of day,
Sooh: appreciate beginning of day 1 link. Hosts who do bookkeeping make much better games to play in.

[edse]

edse

Not that it should matter especially, but I know Zack was pushing more than one villager today and then suggested you for death when the idea was to pull off of GH and Jarema. If you're a villager this should be interesting stuff to you. You are also lock clear if Zack is scum. As such, your assistance would be appreciated. Also your post 374 looks indicative that you'd be receptive to this idea.

It could be just town-frustration, and then a vote from me would make even more frustrated. I still think Jarema is a better lynch.

[Askthepizzaguy]

It could be just town-frustration, and then a vote from me would make even more frustrated. I still think Jarema is a better lynch.

That's fair. Thanks for responding.

I do appreciate the independent thought and action. I just would like to know where people are at and why if they're not gonan pull the trigger on Zaccacino.

[Sooh]

Vote count

AdmiralKleenex (8) - GH, askthepizzaguy, BSmith, Golden1Knight, Jarema, atheotes, Al Sips, Raith Kemmler

GH (1) - El Barto

Jarema (7) - edse, Punisher, seireikhaan, AdmiralKleenex, Visor, johnhughthom, Choxorn

johnhughthom (1) - Double A

[El Barto]

Long live my ibuprofen, but I'm still in a bit of a daze. Do we have the time to change the vote to to scumxorn?

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you really want to do that, then @ the following people:


Jarema (7) - edse, Punisher, seireikhaan, AdmiralKleenex, Visor, johnhughthom, Choxorn

And prod them to move. If sufficient people of VILLAGERY caliber move, then so I shall. since choxorn is guilty too.

Just make sure there's some follow up on Zack when chox flips w.

[El Barto]

Well, since we apparently aren't going to lynch GH or his paranoid girlfriend something-or-other-khaan, then let's try. unvote; vote: Choxorn
edse Punisher seireikhaan AdmiralKleenex Visor johnhughthom Askthepizzaguy.

Back into the ibuprofenic daze for me it is.

[Zack]

Okay, I guess it's time for me to explain my thoughts on choxorn in the face of all this.

Something specific he said, after my reads list and before I gave a townread on him, made me think he might be the cop.

[Zack]

End of D1:
http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png

timer for reference

[Zack]

or Khaan has a N0 peak and used it on GH.
this is the thing, btw

afaik choxorn has never played in a game with a n0 cop peek, and I don't think he's read any MU or POG games, so I figured the reason he would use that specific term is that he's the cop and it's in his role pm.

[Zack]

xyz
this is really dumb reasoning. lynch me because you think i'm scum, not because you think the spew would be informative.

[Zack]

choxorn, I'd appreciate it if you would threaten to sub out of the game if I am lynched.

[Askthepizzaguy]

this is really dumb reasoning. lynch me because you think i'm scum, not because you think the spew would be informative.

I do, and said why at length in other posts.

Just because it wasnt repeated there doesn't mean I never said it.

[Zack]

Which is how he'd play as town, too, obviously.

So how does that make him scum? It doesn't, and Zack knows that he can't really be caught on day one.
lol

have fun playing with a bunch of lurkers this game, pizza. Though, that might actually give you the echo chamber you're craving this game.

I refuse to say glgl to anyone except visor and choxorn. I don't even care if they are scum, good luck to them.

[Zack]

I do, and said why at length in other posts.

Just because it wasnt repeated there doesn't mean I never said it.
I'm going to go read the skype chat where you were so enthusiastic to village together with me and cry.

[Zack]

It could be just town-frustration, and then a vote from me would make even more frustrated. I still think Jarema is a better lynch.
it is town apathy

[Zack]

I do, and said why at length in other posts.

Just because it wasnt repeated there doesn't mean I never said it.
Oh right, this case:


Which is how he'd play as town, too, obviously.

So how does that make him scum? It doesn't, and Zack knows that he can't really be caught on day one.

:2thumbsup:

[Zack]

it is currently 6-6

i am interested to see who votes where
Pay attention to the vote movement after this. It could maybe be important probably.

[Zack]

I do, and said why at length in other posts.

Just because it wasnt repeated there doesn't mean I never said it.

No response to my choxorn read?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza feels that the time is appropriate to laugh in your general direction now.

GG Zack.

[Zack]

Pizza feels that the time is appropriate to laugh in your general direction now.

GG Zack.
If you aren't scum, I hope you feel like a real idiot when you see my flip.

[Askthepizzaguy]

From your own posts since I accused you, I can't take your seriously. Won't feel guilty in the slightest regardless of the flip atp.

Still looking forward to the v/v game tho

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you aren't scum, I hope you feel like a real idiot when you see my flip.

Nope. It's all good brother man. This one's on you.

[Zack]

From your own posts since I accused you, I can't take your seriously. Won't feel guilty in the slightest regardless of the flip atp.

Still looking forward to the v/v game tho


Nope. It's all good brother man. This one's on you.
for your sake i hope it's not town atpg saying this

[Zack]

respond to the choxorn thing

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zack, I've made many worse mistakes in my mafia career than lynching a town you in a random game on a hunch. I promise you I won't weep bitter tears if you flip villager, nor will I feel like an idiot. You're the guy who decided he was done hunting after an accusation.

[GeneralHankerchief]

afaik choxorn has never played in a game with a n0 cop peek, and I don't think he's read any MU or POG games, so I figured the reason he would use that specific term is that he's the cop and it's in his role pm.

Has the term ever been brought up in other places that Choxorn frequents?

[Zack]

Zack, I've made many worse mistakes in my mafia career than lynching a town you in a random game on a hunch. I promise you I won't weep bitter tears if you flip villager, nor will I feel like an idiot. You're the guy who decided he was done hunting after an accusation.
Please just don't ever insult my intelligence by lying about wanting to village with me. That's what I'm mad about. I literally said there was a possibility of you being mafia, nothing more, and you lost your damn mind and tried to organize everyone into voting me. If you want an echo chamber, just say so. Don't pretend that you are excited about the prospect of being townbros with Zack, because it's obviously untrue. If you honestly are that convinced I'm scum here you're delusional.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Please just don't ever insult my intelligence by lying about wanting to village with me. That's what I'm mad about. I literally said there was a possibility of you being mafia, nothing more, and you lost your damn mind and tried to organize everyone into voting me. If you want an echo chamber, just say so. Don't pretend that you are excited about the prospect of being townbros with Zack, because it's obviously untrue. If you honestly are that convinced I'm scum here you're delusional.

I don't believe you believe this, it's just base manipulation. I forgive you, but you're delusional if you believe that's what I'm about.

Discussion over afaic, talk to someone else.

[Zack]

Has the term ever been brought up in other places that Choxorn frequents?
Not that I can think of.

But apparently you should ignore that and lynch him because some of his phrasing was awkward.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Is there any fundamental difference between peek and scan?

[Zack]

Pay attention to the vote movement after this. It could maybe be important probably.
atheotes (not voting --> admiralkleenex)
al sipsclar (jarrema --> admiralkleenex)
raith (gh --> admiralkleenex)

jht (zack --> jarema)
choxorn (gh --> jarema)


Also, choxorn and I tend to mindmeld when we're both town, so more +town points to him.

[Zack]

Is there any fundamental difference between peek and scan?
Well, the phrasing, but also acknowledging the possibility of it being night ZERO. I know it's kinda silly, but it's not totally invalid imo.

Pizza has chosen to completely ignore it, fwiw.

[Zack]

atheotes (not voting --> admiralkleenex)
al sipsclar (jarrema --> admiralkleenex)
raith (gh --> admiralkleenex)

jht (zack --> jarema)
choxorn (gh --> jarema)


Also, choxorn and I tend to mindmeld when we're both town, so more +town points to him.

also el barto moved from gh to choxorn

[Zack]

I mean, just go look at my d1 in the notw. It's totally different.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The word peek has been used in context of a scan in Aspiring Rapper's even though there were no scanners that game. Choxorn was in that game. The phrasing was also used this very game prior to choxorn's post.

[Zack]

Even aspiring rappers my d1 was fairly low-impact. Wildly different than here, where I am vastly out posting all but one player and have a large thread presence.

It's pretty silly.

[Zack]

haha, remember when I was scum in the champions game and hoya posted that huge case against me d2, and I just ignored it to talk about eating pretzels?

Wait. Actually I fought tooth and nail against it. Huh.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Pointing out instances in which you did things differently isn't doing you any favors. Gameplay evolves.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Remember when you had half a day to make a non-harebrained defense and you decided to waste time and spam about pretzels?

[Askthepizzaguy]

By half a day, I mean half a day phase. Over 24 hours.

[Zack]

Pointing out instances in which you did things differently isn't doing you any favors. Gameplay evolves.

Yeah because when I sweep my first thought is how I need to drastically change my play next time.

[Zack]

Remember when you had half a day to make a non-harebrained defense and you decided to waste time and spam about pretzels?
Is that wolfy of me?

[Zack]

Pointing out instances in which you did things differently isn't doing you any favors. Gameplay evolves.
Also isn't your justification for this vote that you accused me of acting differently than I have as town in the past? After that, you then said "well your play can and will change" on several occasions to refute me.

[Zack]

Remind me why people stopped voting gh again. That was a good wagon.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Is that wolfy of me?

You get to make your own defense. You tell folks why it's not wolfy.

I have my opinion and it matches my vote.

[Zack]

You get to make your own defense. You tell folks why it's not wolfy.

I have my opinion and it matches my vote.
I already did. #443

You always love to go on and on about past meta, and you are actively ignoring it here. I have done way more to defend myself than Jarrema, for example.

Considering that most of the players in this game have posted less overall than I have in the last ten minutes, your attempts to shame me won't work. I'm not ashamed of anything I've done this game, I regret nothing.

I'm not going to pretend I'm a power role, because I'm not, I'm just vanilla. So I apologize for failing to magically divine that you were a mason.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Also isn't your justification for this vote that you accused me of acting differently than I have as town in the past? After that, you then said "well your play can and will change" on several occasions to refute me.

A) I'm not sure what your point is

B) I can't even remember because I had to read through a page and a half of pretzel-related discussion.

[Zack]

My read is that you're pushing far too hard for D1. Especially because you know how this forum plays. I think you're trying to cement yourself as the town leader this time around, ASAP for whatever reason.


Because I come to expect it more from them than you. Usually it's they act, you react.
I am scummy for (allegedly) acting differently than I have in the past...


That was well over three years ago, don't try to say that your game hasn't changed since then.


Pointing out instances in which you did things differently isn't doing you any favors. Gameplay evolves.
...but apparently my past behavior does not matter (??)

Your reasoning for voting me makes zero sense. There are glaring contradictions.

[Zack]

You get to make your own defense. You tell folks why it's not wolfy.

I have my opinion and it matches my vote.
I'm interested to hear your take on why scumzack peaces out for an extend period of time with no excuse. I'm guessing you probably think it's a ploy of some kind. You should know that when I am scum, I have an obsessive need to refute a case like that.

This whole thing reminds me of the half-monty game you hosted.

[Zack]

fwiw I think el barto is howling. This is really out-of-character for him if he's town.

[Zack]

Well, since we apparently aren't going to lynch GH or his paranoid girlfriend something-or-other-khaan, then let's try. unvote; vote: Choxorn
edse Punisher seireikhaan AdmiralKleenex Visor johnhughthom Askthepizzaguy.

Back into the ibuprofenic daze for me it is.
Notice how he tried to move everyone off the Jarrema wagon and onto choxorn, even though I was leading (not jarrema). I think jarrema/barto w/w makes a lot of sense.

[Zack]

Town - Visor, edse, choxorn, raith, khaan, jht

Wolf - Jarema, Barto, Al sips (if jarema wolf), Punisher (if jarema village)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Hmm.

Unvote: Zack

[Zack]

I have nothing more to say. This will be my last post until eod unless someone specifically asks me to address something.

Someone please switch over to Jarema.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Barto's been referencing his illness/medicine haze a lot. Has he brought up RL stuff like this in the past?

[Zack]

I have nothing more to say.
Sorry, I lied. The below is not alignment-indicative in any way.
Sooh

I can already tell you're an awesome host. Just a lot of little things done right. Keep up the good work, sad that I probably won't be able to play much of it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm interested to hear your take on why scumzack peaces out for an extend period of time with no excuse.

I don't know what to think.

From my POV I see the game unfolding as it has been, and your behavior doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The best person to explain it to me is you.

Your meta isn't as simple as knowing it and going ah that's scum zack or town zack. I've seen you be low-posting and snarky, low-posting and serious, heavy posting and snarky, heavy posting and combative, heavy posting and diplomatic and lighthearted, as every alignment.

Scum Zack is a lot of different personalities.

I make a guess, I lay it out. It's up to town Zack to help me through my mistake at that point. I'm willing to listen. Even at this point in the game, after many attempts to hear you out have resulted in lolpretzels and you'll feel like such an idiot, and you're a liar about wanting to town with me posts. (etc)

I'm still here, listening. Waiting for town Zack to help me understand.

What I'm getting in the past 24 hours and now is a lot of stuff that's just more confusing to me and less than constructive.

Not trying to shame you. Just letting you know why this is a struggle on my end.

[Sooh]

Votes:

AdmiralKleenex (7) - askthepizzaguy, BSmith, Golden1Knight, Jarema, atheotes, Al Sips, Raith Kemmler
Choxorn (1) - El Barto
Jarema (7) - edse, Punisher, seireikhaan, AdmiralKleenex, Visor, johnhughthom, Choxorn
johnhughthom (1) - Double A

Not voting: GH


http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png (http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png)

Less than 1 hour to go.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Best I usually get with scum Zack is to say "that's within his scum meta" and have you as neutral or slightly worse.

Can't recall a single game where I thought I had you dead to rights.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Barto's been referencing his illness/medicine haze a lot. Has he brought up RL stuff like this in the past?

I don't know. I don't play on CFC as much as I used to, so it's tough for me to say. I also tend to think that's alignment neutral.

Essentially every vote in the game right now is a tie-breaker. Be nice if a scum swings today. I honestly don't care how that comes about.

If it's people lynching Jarema and he's scum, that's fine. That's step 1 in a process to solve the game. I made my case and laid it out, if it's wrong then it is.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Case on Jarema: Early post twigged some alarms for unJaremalike behavior, not much additional content from him but it looks like we have a credible associate or two if he flips scum

Case on Zack: All over the friggin place, his flip reveals a lot either way.

Vote: Jarema

Just don't ever give me 50 posts in a row about pretzels in a row again, okay?

[Zack]

Fine, I'll try to walk you through my thoughts on my behavior.

Look at half Monty. I survived that huge diy case (as town) and ended up being lynchbait all game, to the point where I and others wondered if it simply would have been better if I'd been lynched early on.

I don't want to be lynchbait, I don't want to have to keep fighting off votes all game, and town can obviously survive ad1 mislynch. I figured your mind was set, and honestly I WAS peeved at you for the Skype thing, because you made it seem like manipulative bs. And I didn't want to deal with an angry pizza tunneling me all game, because I lose that battle 100% of the time, especially on the org.

Go up and count the number of people whose only posts this phase are to vote me with little thought and leave. I don't want to deal with that as town. I really don't.

Later I came back and got to work because I'm me and I can't just do nothing, no matter how much I want to.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't want to be lynchbait, I don't want to have to keep fighting off votes all game, and town can obviously survive ad1 mislynch. I figured your mind was set, and honestly I WAS peeved at you for the Skype thing, because you made it seem like manipulative bs. And I didn't want to deal with an angry pizza tunneling me all game, because I lose that battle 100% of the time, especially on the org.

Just fyi, and so you'll know when the game is over and I confirm it, I don't lie to people outside of games to prep a scum tactic in future game.

As much as I give of myself to these games I ultimately don't care about them. My goal in these settings is social. I'd rather lose every game than make my friends dislike me.

[Zack]

Best I usually get with scum Zack is to say "that's within his scum meta" and have you as neutral or slightly worse.

Can't recall a single game where I thought I had you dead to rights.
Table it until later then. I'm a skilled town player you admitted you have trouble reading. Seems silly to lynch me d1. Plus I was probably getting investigated by some power tonight even if none of this had happened.

[Zack]

Just fyi, and so you'll know when the game is over and I confirm it, I don't lie to people outside of games to prep a scum tactic in future game.

As much as I give of myself to these games I ultimately don't care about them. My goal in these settings is social. I'd rather lose every game than make my friends dislike me.

Still, I'd honestly appreciate it if you never say something like that again. Don't make promises you can't keep.

[Jarema]

unvote; vote: AdmiralKleenex.

self-preservation is a potent tool

[Zack]

I know I town read visor but his general apathy after his initial spark has me worried.

I am a very paranoid townie. It's why I would post something like where I said one of GH, pizza, visor is a wolf. Because the possibility is always there in the back of my mind.

lolme

[Zack]

unvote; vote: AdmiralKleenex.

self-preservation is a potent tool
You are already voting me.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Still, I'd honestly appreciate it if you never say something like that again. Don't make promises you can't keep.

It would be a mistake to take sentiments that I'd like to work more constructively with you in future games, as a promise to not scum-read you in the very next game if that's what I think your alignment is.

I'm really surprised that's how you would treat such an idea. Better to pick it up postgame as well, as the entire discussion about that is pretty out of place during the game.

[Zack]

It would be a mistake to take sentiments that I'd like to work more constructively with you in future games, as a promise to not scum-read you in the very next game if that's what I think your alignment is.

I'm really surprised that's how you would treat such an idea. Better to pick it up postgame as well, as the entire discussion about that is pretty out of place during the game.
That's not how I took it and that's not what I meant, but whatever. Go ahead and lynch me, if you aren't swayed at this point you never will be.

[Visor]

unvote; vote: AdmiralKleenex.

self-preservation is a potent tool

Holy Christmas that'd a howler

[Sooh]

Votes:

AdmiralKleenex (7) - askthepizzaguy, BSmith, Golden1Knight, Jarema, atheotes, Al Sips, Raith Kemmler
Choxorn (1) - El Barto
Jarema (8) - edse, Punisher, seireikhaan, AdmiralKleenex, Visor, johnhughthom, Choxorn, GH
johnhughthom (1) - Double A

Not voting:
http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png

30 minutes to go!

[Zack]

Holy Christmas that'd a howler

I also kinda think it spew clears me. He wanted to be extra sure he was voting zack.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Jarema, do you have anything constructive to add to the game?

Who is town, who is scum iyo

[Visor]

The thing stopping me voting zack is El Barto is off wagon and zack is saying he is howling

Seems a tad sub optimal as a wolf

[Visor]

Jarema, do you have anything constructive to add to the game?

Who is town, who is scum iyo

He's had nothing constructive to add at all, that's why I think he's scum

As town he normally has an opinion even if it is I don't know

His play this game has been really weird

[Askthepizzaguy]

The thing stopping me voting zack is El Barto is off wagon and zack is saying he is howling

Seems a tad sub optimal as a wolf

Wagons could be w/w and it doesn't matter. You usually don't see so many votes lined up on just 2 candidates on the org on d1.

[Visor]

Wagons could be w/w and it doesn't matter. You usually don't see so many votes lined up on just 2 candidates on the org on d1.

True

Still
I can't imagine a world where town jarema.pops in and asks about pretzels and leaves again

Like I just can't imagine him doing that as town unless he said something about it

Iguess I am okay with zack dying too but jarema is really weird and there are a few little.things in zack favour (despite him still being wolfy)

[Visor]

I'll watch how things play out. Though I think I prefer a jarema lynch

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm hardly complaining that the second wagon is Jarema.

[Zack]

https://i.imgur.com/eZXX0Ok.png

[Sooh]

Votes :
AdmiralKleenex (7) - askthepizzaguy, BSmith, Golden1Knight, Jarema, atheotes, Al Sips, Raith Kemmler
Choxorn (1) - El Barto
Jarema (8) - edse, Punisher, seireikhaan, AdmiralKleenex, Visor, johnhughthom, Choxorn, GH
johnhughthom (1) - Double A

Not voting:


http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png

15 minutes to go!

[Sooh]

FYI: Tiebreaker is random.org.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Unvote

[Zack]

gh obviously looks really good here if jarema flips w

[Sooh]

Votes:
AdmiralKleenex (6) - BSmith, Golden1Knight, Jarema, atheotes, Al Sips, Raith Kemmler
Choxorn (1) - El Barto
Jarema (8) - edse, Punisher, seireikhaan, AdmiralKleenex, Visor, johnhughthom, Choxorn, GH
johnhughthom (1) - Double A

Not voting: askthepizzaguy


http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png

10 minutes to go!

[Zack]

Yes. Yes I do. It was completely out of line.


Also, I concur with atpg's read on Visor, and Visor's read on Jarrema (not as strongly as they do).

vote: Jarrema
if jarema flips v this is a howler btw

[Askthepizzaguy]

if jarema flips v this is a howler btw

Not really.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Jarema

[Zack]

Jarema w

town - visor, jht, gh, edse, choxorn, khaan, bsmith

wolf - barto, atheotes, al sips, raith, goldenknight


Jarema v

town - ?

wolf - punisher

[Sooh]

Votes:
AdmiralKleenex (6) - BSmith, Golden1Knight, Jarema, atheotes, Al Sips, Raith Kemmler
Choxorn (1) - El Barto
Jarema (9) - edse, Punisher, seireikhaan, AdmiralKleenex, Visor, johnhughthom, Choxorn, GH, askthepizzaguy
johnhughthom (1) - Double A

Not voting:


http://www.pending.me.uk/cd/tur_1460408400.png

5 minutes to go!

[Zack]

why the vote switch?

[Askthepizzaguy]

why the vote switch?

In the event this is w/v wagons, not allowing it to go to tiebreaker or near tiebreaker is better.

At least I know the alignment of the person that made it go from 7-8 to 6-9 and I know that person's alignment is always resolved by murder.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I also asked Jarema a question that's simple enough to answer by now.

Quickest way for me to stop caring what your alignment is: be here and say nothing when I ask you a question.