View Full Version : 8 player Replay: Try this and see if you lag!
Hello all.
Sinan sent me a replay of a recent 8 way battle we had. It occured to me that it might be a good way to dispell a few myths some people have regarding 56k users causing all the lag in every game for them. The truth is usually that their own system is just to slow to run MTW with their current settings or they are trying to join large battles with a slow machine.
Knowing your system cannot handle something is the first step in enjoying lag free games and probably the one step you can take that wont cost you anything.
So try running this replay on your system and report the results back here. Use your usual detail level settings.
http://www.respawn.co.uk/modules....lid=130 (http://www.respawn.co.uk/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=130)
The replay is a 8 way battle. Because it is a replay and not a battle it should run smoother than actually being in that game. If it does not run smoothly then your own system is entirely at fault, you cannot blame it on another user whilst viewing this replay. Remember net lag will not be factor in this replay only system lag.
The Handgun incident mentioned in another thread is also in this replay. Just follow my Cav towards the end of the battle as I regroup. When you see me regrouping near some hand gunners then your in the right place. Anyway thats another issue.
Remember, system lag is the lag most people suffer from in MTW. Network lag only happens if you join servers with High pings. Something I personally always try and avoid.
My system is as follows.
Athlon XP2000+ CPU
512meg of DDR333 CL2 ram
Gforce 2 (yup not the best card but it works well with mtw).
Internet connection = A single (Digital) ISDN line (64k)
Ping to server = 167.
System Lag experienced = None.
Network Lag experienced = None.
My Detail level settings = Maxed out.
The Server settings = medium unit sizes I believe.
(I was not the server btw, I wouldnt attempt to be a server with anything less than an ADSL line either for games like this).
As you can see, my system handles 8 way games on a 64k line very well indeed. In fact ive head several ADSL users complain of lag whilst my system was running extremely smoothly. A point id like you all to remember.
If you suffer from lag a lot, try upgrading your computer or reducing the detail level within the game.
Giskard
i implore everyone to read this
there is too much descrimination of modems online, and its all falsified
I prefer to call it ignorance of the truth Alrowan.:)
Lets face it, if you join a server with a ping higher than 400 then they would be right that YOU are lagging, Notice i said YOU and not THEY. The fact that you would lag as a player still wouldnt effect them except when they targeted your army.
Most players are not stupid enough to join a high ping server, that is something most players online know is a bad thing. So the issue is tends to be the players own computer's performance and not anybody elses fault.
56k users have to deal with those issues on a daily basis so are probably the true experts on how to avoid it. ADSL users usually dont have to deal with it at all and are normally unware of the problems or the solutions or the fact that others are taking steps to avoid lag even whilst they are not. Though some ADSL users that came through the whole 14,000, 19,200, 28,000, 33,600 and 56,000 modems before upgrading to ADSL will have a dam good idea of what all this is about.
Anybody who remembers the the 9,600 or slower modems will need a walking stick lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Edit: Actually i feel like batheling some people with some facts about modems so here goes.
Lets take the 56k modem as an example.
The average connection speed is between 45,000 and 48,000 for most people. Connecting at the full 56k usually means a lot of errors will occure. The average download speed for a exe or zip file is roughly 4.2kps. The average download speed for a jpeg is about the same. Text files transfer at twice that speed.
Compression used in the modem cannot compress zips, exes and jpegs much more than they currently are compressed so the download speed is pretty low. However compress used on text files can produce some fast download speeds. The fastest text file download I ever saw was on a 33.600 modem that achieved 13kps using a USR test file from the US robotics website.
The denser the code being downloaded the slower it downloads. If the stuff your downloading contains for example a lot of spaces or other dead data then your downloads can actually double in speed. It reality its not actually any faster than if the data had been zipped it. You see the file is actually bigger in its original state so the download may be faster but theres more of it. If a person zipped it up it would probably finish at the same time as the original file because the zipped version is smaller.
Your serial port buffer takes a roll in this too. The average is 115200 on most pc's and most modems can only handle that but some PC's can handle twice that if thats the case and your own a usr courier modem then it will use those speeds. In which case surfing websites on a 56k courier may actually appear to be faster than an single isdn line even though its not. Never got around to testing that though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The buffer effects text file downloads and none zipped data that can be compressed by the modem more than zips or exes.
The one big problem with all 56k modems is that they are analog and as such suffer badly from line quality. Digital systems such as ISDN dont suffer from it at all. As a result, 56k users may suffer from dropped packets, disconnections and other things that can be seen as lag if they are on a bad line. Some modems will retrain the connection on the fly to prevent line quality from causing a problem. My old USR modem did this and as a result i had very few problems with disconnects. Trouble is most other modems didnt support it so the moment my modem retrained up and or down the other machine would crash. Weird but true.
ISP's never seem to allow that sort of thing though. So the net always presented disconnection dangers to 56k users.
Double buffered serial ports safed my live when i was a 33.6 user. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Anyway its an entirely different story for isdn or adsl users. They either connect to the system via a pci port or via network card connected to the PCI port. Either way you avoid the serial port bottleneck completely. You also get to use some rather good network hardware externally such as routers and other cool toys.
Giskard
Quote[/b] (giskard @ Dec. 28 2002,00:44)]...Anybody who remembers the the 9,600 or slower modems will need a walking stick lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Giskard
* ahem *
i remember those...
...no walking sticks here but...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Lol. You show your age.
I of course dont remember them at all, the name just appeared by magic in my post and i have no clue what it really means...Honest...throws walking stick across the room before barocca sees it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Gregoshi
12-28-2002, 08:14
Should I mention my 300 baud modem I had with my Commodore 64? Nothing quite like zoning out while the characters creep onto the screen enough for you to read at a comfortably fast rate of speed only to discover you zoned too long and much of the text you wanted to read has scrolled off the screen. And there were no such thing as scroll bars back then. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I think I'll try your replay just for kicks. My PII 350 will hate me for a week, but it has been quite a while since I've seen a slide show. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Lol some people in here are truely mental http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I didnt think anybody had a modem for a C64 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Still there was a surprising amount of stuff released for those babies. I have a feeling this thread will turn into an retro thread somehow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I started my comping life on a Vic 20. Loved that machine. Super expander, 16k ram expansion, tons of tapes, a light pen (those things you drawn on the screen with). No disk drive, just a tape. Didnt get a diskdrive with those, i didnt even get a diskdrive with my C64. Only when i got my amiga did i move into the modern world and get a floppy drive lol. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sad but true.
Giskard
that replay is very good,
a little bad luck for your green opponent, imho he should not have routed as early as he did, a little bad luck with the cascade there,
still no lag at all on this machine
makes me happy to see that
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
btw, see handgunner thread - well give me a minute to write it first,
i have some clues for you..
ok, ijust came back from looking at the box specs.. and look what i found
for SP you only need a minimum of a PII 350MHz
thats nothing right?
for MP on the other hand it says you need a minimum of a PIII 750MHz and a 28.8Kbps modem.. NOT BROADBAND
i also have a feeling that the people causeing lag are the ones that play the game in SP fine, yet thier PC doesnt meet the MP requirements
anyway, ill go by whay the box says, so if you use a 14.4kbps modem, then i can blame you for lag.
Kraellin
12-28-2002, 11:14
eh? speak up sonny, my hearing aide batteries are a bit weak at the moment.
there were millions of folks that had modems for the C-64 and i well remember playing at 300 baud on compuserve and genie, when those WERE the networks to be on, not this new-fangled, jumbled, way-too-fast, internet thing. bah why, in my day *wheeeze* it took 15 seconds to make a turn and 6 hours to download a 512k file and that was if you didnt get disconnected 6 times in the trying. bah
and you bloody well paid by the hour, not the month. bloody youngin's these days dont know how good they got it. all they do is complain about a 300 ping...a 300 ping bah in my day *wheeze* when you sent out a ping, you went and ate dinner and if you were lucky, by the time you returned, the ping had come back with a result bah
bloody kids these days, *canes alrowan just cause he looks to be the youngest around at the moment*, all these mp3 things and sound this and video that... why, when we wanted music on our computers we just jammed a pencil into the speakers and that was good enough and if you wanted video, why you just hooked up your black light strobe left over from your party days, typed in load, 8, 1 on your favorite grapic image, waited 6 days for it to load and watched all 9 pixels displayed under the strobe light....plenty good enough bah
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
K.
man...i am 24 and i rember the 9600...that was lame.
however, i had no idea there were modems for the C64. i was toolin with atari and slot cars back then.
jeffreyLebowski
12-28-2002, 18:31
i agree, the lag in this game is not necessarily caused by poor internet connections. it's caused by poor code. my system is a 1.4athlon, radeon8500, 384mb ram, all on a very low lateny cable modem, yet in almost every game of mtw i play, i experiences poor frame rates. for simple height mapped terrain with 2d sprites on top, that's ridiculous. i think a lot of ppl simply blame the choppy performance on someone's 56k because it's what you would think is causing the problem. little do they know, that if they had simply played the exact same battle as a custom game, it would still run poorly. btw, if anyone knows how to fix all this choppiness, do tell...hehehe.
Before the patch i couldn't host a 4v4 with my 56k, now i can. In stw and mi/we i could host a 4v4, but it would be slow. Now with the patch for mtw i can host 4v4 and it runs smooth. So, i don't know what CA did to make it possible, but it's a job well done. Maybe they do even a better job and allow for 6v6 battles with a 56k. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I have no idea why so many people think you need a really fast connection. It's sad when you see people kicking others out of a 1v1 cause the person joining says he has a 56k. You have many games hosted saying no modems/56kers, yet i can host fine with my 56k.
Some people say that they don't want a 56ker in there game cause it lowers there frame rate. How is that even possible? I can understand the game slowing down, but they mean it gives them low fps a choppy screen.
I guess we have to just deal with it all, since explaining it to them sometimes dosn't even work.
ToranagaSama
12-28-2002, 21:05
Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Dec. 28 2002,04:32)]ok, ijust came back from looking at the box specs.. and look what i found
for SP you only need a minimum of a PII 350MHz
thats nothing right?
for MP on the other hand it says you need a minimum of a PIII 750MHz and a 28.8Kbps modem.. NOT BROADBAND
i also have a feeling that the people causeing lag are the ones that play the game in SP fine, yet thier PC doesnt meet the MP requirements
anyway, ill go by whay the box says, so if you use a 14.4kbps modem, then i can blame you for lag.
Something I find curious is that, MANY times I"ve seen people quoting the specs on the box to confirm that their machine can't be an issue.
I don't know, but in my day, before the Walking Stick, everyone KNEW that the "minimum" box specs were complete BS. The game companies wouldn't dare put the real specs cause then no one would buy the game. If your system didn't exceed the box specs then you were sure to have issues.
There was much whinning about this, so game companies then started to add "Reccommended" specs on the box in addition to "minimum" specs. The one thing that s/b gleaned from this is, DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE
Quite obviously one should realize that "reccommended" specs are, in reality, the "minimum" specs to obtain minimum enjoyment. This is just the reality of life, game companies HYPE
The moral of this story, your system better exceed the "reccommended" specs by quite a degree to get satisfactory performance.
Taking a look, the box uses the term "required" rather than "reccommended", which to me seems more ominous than "reccommended". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The box says 28.8K "required", I think you all will agree that that's an example of HYPE.
For those that have Graphic issues, the box is really interesting. Check the "slap-on" after-the-box-has-been-printed sticker. The printed box includes in the "supported" chipsets the ATI Radeon (and others), but the "slap-on" sticker has an "Important Note: ...Some 3D accelerator cards with the chipsets listed here may not be compatible with the 3D acceleration features utilized by [MTW]...."
Perfect example of Hyping and Bactracking. So the "supported" chipsets aren't really "supported"??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE
i really really really hate games called "NO MODEMS" etc. i played a 3v3 with my modem running at 33600, and there was NO lag, after the game the 3 players on the losing side said i was a bad person (in worse terms). i also have a pII 350, and my graphics card is so bad i can't load the campaign map, and a horses head is one block of brown, but i DO run multiplayer with no lag. im ranting. i'll stop now. feel better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Kraellin
12-28-2002, 22:10
someone posted a question in the apothecary a little while back, about what's the reason for lag. i answered him and you can find the post over there. there is NO guarantee that any broadband system will be better than a 56k and vice versa. there are a LOT of factors involved, any of which can screw up a connection and game play.
giskard's posting of an 8 player replay is a very good idea. do try it and see if it's your system or you connection or both that are causing problems with your mp game. it might be interesting to make up a number of these, one for each possible combination of number of players, just to find out what your system can really handle as opposed to what your connection can handle.
also, always bear in mind that we are an international community and that when you're playing with a guy from australia, new zealand, the u.k., new york, canada, hawaii, korea and japan, all in the same game, you just might get a little lag at times...just maybe, just a tiny little bit ;)
K.
Orda Khan
12-28-2002, 22:44
Quote[/b] (Kraellin @ Dec. 28 2002,15:10)]someone posted a question in the apothecary a little while back, about what's the reason for lag. i answered him and you can find the post over there. there is NO guarantee that any broadband system will be better than a 56k and vice versa. there are a LOT of factors involved, any of which can screw up a connection and game play.
giskard's posting of an 8 player replay is a very good idea. do try it and see if it's your system or you connection or both that are causing problems with your mp game. it might be interesting to make up a number of these, one for each possible combination of number of players, just to find out what your system can really handle as opposed to what your connection can handle.
also, always bear in mind that we are an international community and that when you're playing with a guy from australia, new zealand, the u.k., new york, canada, hawaii, korea and japan, all in the same game, you just might get a little lag at times...just maybe, just a tiny little bit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
K.
I agree with you totally Krae, I have never understood the 'Lag' issue. As you pointed out, we are playing from different countries and, get this, down a phone line http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Yes all you 'no modems' 'no 56k ers' even your 'oh so superior' adsl works on a bit of damp string.
My advice when you experience a bit of lag is to remember this and marvel at the fact that we can play this game online at all.
Just for information.....my connection is usually around 46666 but I can connect as low as 31200 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif Why the sad face I can play a 4v4 with no lag at all, even at this speed.
Stop the prejudice please
........Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Kraellin: lol to your first reply http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
To your second. I think 8 of us should play a 8 way game with max, med and low game settings and save the replays off. EG 200 men units, 100 men units and what ever the low setting is.
I think the resulting games should then be played in a fashion designed to produce the most activity on the screen at the same time.
Then we pack all 4 replays into one archive and upload it to the org for those wanting a local system stress test.
To do this all we need is 8 volenteers, preferably with good systems that can handle all those settings easily and one night on a locked server. The resulting information should be a pretty good gauge of the viewers computer rating in respect to MTW.
I suspect rusher tactics might produce the worst system lag.
Giskard
Kraellin
12-29-2002, 04:45
giskard,
if you really want to test it, make it 8, 56k players :)
however, if you really want to test your own system, just run a custom game with 8 players, smoke and fauna turned on, huge units, and highest resolution you can do; oh, and the music and sound turned on.
still, a show by 8, 56k'ers playing a normal speed game might be useful.
and i believe the title of that thread i was referring to in the dungeon was something like, 'why do i get lag', or 'what causes lag', posted by alrowan.
K.
well K,
no amount of fiddling with my system will allow a 4v4 with huge units - even with all options turned off,
sound seems to make no difference whatsoever,
so i'm going to assume graphics card...
(AMD athlon 1000, 512MB ram - heaps of HDD space, Nvidia TNT2 32MB AGP)
B.
Actually thats a good point.
Its a stress test for local systems not an online test. So I dont need 8 players at all. Just my self and 8 AI's. An online test can only ever be accurately seen in the game with 7 other players, where as a local test can be run with AI's and the replay saved off to be viewed by others.
True id lose control over how the battle was thought but it should be worth it.
I'll give it some thought.
Giskard
Kraellin
12-29-2002, 21:24
bar,
yup. the tnt card is an earlier generation card. upgrade that one to something with at least 4x agp and you shld do a LOT better. your other specs look fine for mtw. just make sure your mobo can handle 4x agp first.
K.
Gregoshi
12-29-2002, 22:51
My PII 350 is well below the minimum spec for online play, yet it does fine playing a 1v1 with no smoke/no fauna. 2v2s do get a little laggy, but a switch to small units and my machine played a lag free game. I've not tried anything more than a 2v2 though. Alas, lag or no lag, the result is always the same... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
ROTFL Krae I'd have laughed harder, but my lungs wouldn't hold enough air. * wheeze * http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Kraellin
12-30-2002, 01:49
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
K.
p.s. dont EVER ask me about my first car http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Ok I ran those tests in Custom Battle and made 5 replays using 1 player and 8 AI's.
60,000 florins per team. Same map and other settings for all replays except I gradually turned down the performance from huge to small. So now I have 1 replay made using exactly the same settings at each performance setting.
Be warned, the Stresstest-Huge replay is a little wild. Max units, max players tends to do that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Heres the file.
http://www.respawn.co.uk/modules....lid=131 (http://www.respawn.co.uk/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=131)
It should be handy for fine tuning your own performance and detail settings within MTW. You never know, you may have turned off some detail settings when you didnt have too.
Anyway have fun with this.
Just remember, when you think you have found the ideal settings for your system be sure to test it in a real game. The replays may not take into account everything that effects your computer during a typical game. They should however help elimate system lag if used correctly.
Barrocca: If you want this for TW.org, feel free to post it mate.
Giskard
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