Brexit Thread

[Husar]

House of lords delayal time: 1 year max. Commission delayal time 5 years minimum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_delay_and_integration

That is what I find when I look up delayal time to find out why that would be relevant or whether it's even true.
The Wikipedia article on the House of Lords is hilarious though:


Unlike the elected House of Commons, most members of the House of Lords are appointed.[5] The membership of the House of Lords is drawn from the peerage and is made up of Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal. The Lords Spiritual are 26 bishops in the established Church of England.[6] Of the Lords Temporal, the majority are life peers who are appointed by the monarch on the advice of the Prime Minister, or on the advice of the House of Lords Appointments Commission. However, they also include some hereditary peers including four dukes. [7] Membership was once an entitlement of all hereditary peers, other than those in the peerage of Ireland, but under the House of Lords Act 1999, the right to membership was restricted to 92 hereditary peers.[8] Very few of these are female since most hereditary peerages can only be inherited by men.[9]

[...]

In April 2011, a cross-party group of former leading politicians, including many senior members of the House of Lords, called on the Prime Minister David Cameron to stop creating new peers. He had created 117 new peers since becoming prime minister in May 2010, a faster rate of elevation than any PM in British history. The expansion occurred while his government had tried (in vain) to reduce the size of the House of Commons by 50 members, from 650 to 600.[43]

[...]

In August 2015, following the creation of a further 45 peers in the Dissolution Honours, the total number of eligible members of the Lords increased to 826. In a report entitled Does size matter? the BBC said: "Increasingly, yes. Critics argue the House of Lords is the second largest legislature after the Chinese National People's Congress and dwarfs Upper Houses in other bi-cameral democracies such as the United States (100 senators), France (348 senators), Australia (76 senators) and India (250 members). The Lords is also larger than the Supreme People's Assembly of North Korea (687 members). [… ] Peers grumble that there is not enough room to accommodate all of their colleagues in the Chamber, where there are only about 400 seats, and say they are constantly jostling for space – particularly during high-profile sittings", but added, "On the other hand, defenders of the Lords say that it does a vital job scrutinising legislation, a lot of which has come its way from the Commons in recent years".[47]

I like especially how a PM can just willynilly assign his cronies there, the medieval bishops, hereditary appointees, it being mostly men and the comparisons with China and North Korea. Now you may say that despite all the members being unelected, you like what it does, but then what if I like what the EU commission does? Should democracy only apply if you don't like what unelected people do or can there also be more indirect democracy?

[Greyblades]

The lords are incapable of stopping the passing of an act of parliament beyond the term of a year whereby they can attempt to shift public opinion, should the lords fail to do so the act goes through regardless of the content of the act, even if it is one that dissolves the house of lords itself. They are also incapable of doing basically anything without parliamentary approval.

The president of the commission is elected by the parliament but the other 28 commissioners require his ratification, meaning he can keep rejectjng candidates until he gets the cronies he wants and with their cooperation that president can prevent a bill he doesnt like from even being presented to the eu parliament. Combine a 5 year term with an immunuty to anything short of a vote of no confidence in the parliament that elelcted him and you find a greater potential for obstruction of democratic will than the house of lords could even dream of matching.

The EU is a system where will never be able to legally get rid of the commission as you require the cooperation of said commission to do anything including dissolve it, whereas the house of lords can be removed in one vote in the commons and at most a year of waiting.

They're like the queen: remaining because we will it and removed if we choose it. Whereas your commission will require a great deal more sweat and tears to remove.

[Rhyfelwyr]

According to the bookies it's a shoe-in for Remain.

[Greyblades]

Hrm, the bookies make more money the more people bet on the side that loses, still, it is undeniable that victory for either side is not certain.

[Sarmatian]

Screw it, the Brits apparently can't even get out properly.

At least everybody else in the EU now gets minimum 5 years free of British moaning.

[GeneralHankerchief]

How much is the weather likely to impact things? Here in the US, rain and storms and the like usually favors the more passionate/dedicated side, which makes me think that Leave benefits.

Of course, the higher-turnout European countries might scoff at such a notion of something as small as rain getting in the way of people voting.

[Greyblades]

Well we just had 20 celcius with 85% humidity here yesterday and today started with a storm that came close to bursting the local riverbanks, but didnt do smeg for the humidity.

Walking to the polling booth was a strange experience, light rain, huge puddles, washed out gardens of the houses I passed, but wearing a teeshirt, an unbuttoned white shirt and a thin raincoat I was overheating and sweating in a degree I havent felt since I visited Washington DC in the middle of summer.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Heh, yeah, DC in the summer can be its own special flavor of hell sometimes. On the flip side, I remember visiting Belgium and France this time a year ago and being pleasantly surprised with the comfortable temperatures there.

[Greyblades]

There is a special place in hell for the weathermen who get it wrong; it's right next to the ones that got it right.

[Lizardo]

Casted my Vote to leave! Came back sweating Like a P.I.G. , Thor's battle with the god's last night has cause a lot of persperation

[InsaneApache]

How much is the weather likely to impact things? Here in the US, rain and storms and the like usually favors the more passionate/dedicated side, which makes me think that Leave benefits.

Of course, the higher-turnout European countries might scoff at such a notion of something as small as rain getting in the way of people voting.

This was asked on the Daily Politics yesterday. It makes no difference apparently.

I too just voted and it was bloody hot. Unfeasibly hot for the UK.

[Pannonian]

This was asked on the Daily Politics yesterday. It makes no difference apparently.

I too just voted and it was bloody hot. Unfeasibly hot for the UK.

From the Guardian. (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/referendum-day-queues-polling-stations)


In London and parts of the south-east many were forced to brave torrential rain and navigated flooded streets to have their say.

Some polling stations were forced to close and relocate as the equivalent of one month’s rain fell overnight in the capital.

Kingston upon Thames council, in south-west London, relocated two polling stations in Chessington and New Malden. Local residents reported that polling stations in Barking and Newham in east London were difficult to access because of flood water.

The weather did not appear to have deterred the determined. Pictures posted on social media showed plenty of queues.

One lightning strike hit less than 500 feet away, going by the less than half a second gap between lightning and thunder. Car alarms outside were also set off by said strike.

[Greyblades]

A vote so important god is forcing an extra day before the tallying so more people can get to the ballot box in time!

[InsaneApache]

Makes one fortunate to live in the grim north then. :sweatdrop:

[Greyblades]

Started raining again, hard. this keeps up the river's flood defenses are going to return the investment early.

[Furunculus]

Screw it, the Brits apparently can't even get out properly.

At least everybody else in the EU now gets minimum 5 years free of British moaning.
lol, that's optimism for you.
what do you think happens if its Remain 52:48?

[Furunculus]

Tomorrow there will be a new EU. Regardless of whether ‘Remain’ or ‘Leave’ wins the day. Because regardless of who wins, it won’t be decisive in either direction.

The question is to whom will we be the better neighbours?

If Leave takes the day we’ll be better neighbours to the Eurozone, they will be able to continue their integration through the single market, as the Five Presidents Report indicated was their preference. We will, genuinely, be better neighbour’s to the core; free to cooperate and collaborate without constantly checking the small print to see if their salvation impinges on our fundamental sovereignty. We would be rather hanging peripheral europe out to dry. Without our support they will find it harder to resist integration at the level of EU27, via the single market. Yes, Brexit might prove to be such a shock that the periphery falls away to EFTA regardless, but that is an unknown. That might allow nations such as Finland and Italy to escape the Eurozone, but again it’s an unknown.

If Remain takes the day we’ll be better neighbours to the non-Eurozone countries, our presence will provide the tide that washes them safely ashore. Right now, there is a legal and moral undertow that is dragging the periphery towards full economic and political integration. Tomorrow would be the start of a process – which may take five years – whereby nations legally obliged to join the euro have the ability to say “no thanks”. Our continued presence with an exemption to ever-closer-union and the referendum lock will force the eurozone to integrate outside of the Single Market. Much as Cameron did with fiskal-union. That won’t come without pain and anguish in the eurozone however, because the urge to use the Single Market will be strong. Tax harmonisation via the SM? No! Fiskal tranfers vias the SM? No! Common liability via the SM? No! Speak slowly and loudly: “Within the eurooozowne!”.

My money is on Remain, 52:48.

The very process of attempting these measures at the level of the Single Market – necessary to make economic union survive and thrive in the future – will spin off peripheral nations into our orbit. The periphery will metamorphose into EFTA 2.0, with Britain as mid-wife. It will be a happier place all round, merely a question of how difficult the process transition proves for those involved.

A core able to integrate, a periphery happy to cooperate. Not a bad result.

[Slyspy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY3RznQSBfw#t=16

Shouldn't that read "Stand up and vote for Boris' political ambitions"?

[Crandar]

After Obama and Beckham, another infamous celebrity (https://www.facebook.com/TotalWar/posts/1088060754602457:0)joined Bremain!

[Lizardo]

I'm really interested which way Gibraltar voted.

[Lizardo]

Buy Euros tomorrow everybody the pound is really strong

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm really interested which way Gibraltar voted.

Remain, by over 95%

[Lizardo]

Yes I guess that's due to simplicity as Gibraltar borders Spain and all that jazz.

[InsaneApache]

I'd like to thank everyone who took part in this thread.

We all had our different points of view and sometimes the exchanges got a bit heated, especially after the awful murder of a wife and mother. BTW she was an M.P.

Whatever the result may I wish you all good cheer and happiness.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Looking good for Leave so far.

If so, I'm never trusting a British poll again after the surprise victory last year and now this.

[InsaneApache]

Blimey.

[Greyblades]

"Do you hear the people sing, singing the song of angry men..."

Still not sure about the not be slaves again part, but there certainly been angry men.

[Lizardo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQPMlrNDlxA

[Pannonian]

The UK has decided, so now the UK has to face the consequences. I'm not sure there will still be a UK in a few years time, but that's part of the consequences that we'll have to live with.

Edit: It looks like London, Manchester and Scotland have been the big remain strongholds, with most of the rest lukewarm or strongly leave.

[InsaneApache]

:bow:

[Fragony]

52% votes for Brexit.

[naut]

Pound and FTSE getting absolutely routed. Recession on the menu.

Second Scottish independence vote to be within the next 12 months, I'm calling that now. (This time it will pass).

[a completely inoffensive name]

Congrats UK. However this pans out, have pride that if your Union falls, at least it was bloodless and democratic.

[Greyblades]

Pound and FTSE getting absolutely routed. Recession on the menu.

Second Scottish independence vote to be within the next 12 months, I'm calling that now. (This time it will pass).

What makes you think that? They have even less chance of survival now than they did 2 years ago and that referendum bound them, I think the scots are more honorable than to break thier word over this.

[Lizardo]

Actually I think this will unite the UK. Thank you Lord Jehovah for striking down upon thee the vision of buying gold days before.

[naut]

What makes you think that? They have even less chance of survival now than they did 2 years ago.
^^ Complete opposite.

18593

Opinion in Scotland is for the EU. UK no longer represents Scotland's best interests. Especially once we see the renegotiated terms between the UK and EU being less favourable than previously + volatility in the currency/economy.

They now have the mandate, the means and the motive to try again and this time succeed in seceding.

[Lizardo]

......

[naut]

So the SNP doesnt have the support to call another referendum
Wrong. With Greens they have a majority to call it. And with the direction Brexit will push the economy (calls to close the FTSE to prevent panic selling lmao). They will have more than enough reason to get to the 1mln backers needed to trigger calling it again. I'm calling it now. Scotland to leave UK rejoin the EU.


Wales will not want to leave the UK, EU fucked up the steel industry.
Wales is a red herring, and leaving the EU is categorically bad for them. They are the biggest beneficiaries of EU/London subsidies. Wales = failed state.


"With the over two-thirds of the counting areas reporting a result the strongest predictor of how an area would vote is the education level of the residents. So far the results indicate that greater the proportion of residents with a higher education, the more likely a local authority was to vote remain."

Enjoy!! :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

[Pannonian]

What makes you think that? They have even less chance of survival now than they did 2 years ago and that referendum bound them, I think the scots are more honorable than to break thier word over this.

The Scots voted on the economic argument. With the UK out of the EU, that economic argument is far weaker, as the UK has put itself outside the bigger market that the EEA is. If the UK will be subject to tariffs from its bigger competitor, it makes sense for Scotland to join said bigger competitor. There are some years still to go before we're fully out, but I'd imagine that Scotland will want to start aligning their economy with the EU now, in preparation for eventual entry, as there will be pain at some point anyway, and the Common Market is enough of a prize to accept the pain now rather than later. A choice that wouldn't have been necessary had the UK remained part of the Common Market.

Also, if FTSE continues to crash like it's done already, then there's something to be gained in setting up Edinburgh as a viable competitor to London.

[Pannonian]

Wrong. With Greens they have a majority to call it. And with the direction Brexit will push the economy (calls to close the FTSE to prevent panic selling lmao). They will have more than enough reason to get to the 1mln backers needed to trigger calling it again. I'm calling it now. Scotland to leave UK rejoin the EU.


Wales is a red herring, and leaving the EU is categorically bad for them. They are the biggest beneficiaries of EU/London subsidies. Wales = failed state.


"With the over two-thirds of the counting areas reporting a result the strongest predictor of how an area would vote is the education level of the residents. So far the results indicate that greater the proportion of residents with a higher education, the more likely a local authority was to vote remain."

Enjoy!! :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

London subsidises the rest of the country. Yet we have a Tory government in power despite London voting Labour (by far), and we'll be exiting the EU despite London voting to remain (by far).

[Greyblades]

^^ Complete opposite.

18593

Opinion in Scotland is for the EU. UK no longer represents Scotland's best interests. Especially once we see the renegotiated terms between the UK and EU being less favourable than previously + volatility in the currency/economy.

They now have the mandate, the means and the motive to try again and this time succeed in seceding.Motive? Yes. Means? Not now, they made an agreement with the last referendum, westminster can hold them to it for years. Economic? Thier economy is hit by this the same as ours and the EU is stil not likely let them as the spanish will be pissed at them for encouraging the catalonians, less now there is no ambiguity over no automatic transition.


The Scots voted on the economic argument. With the UK out of the EU, that economic argument is far weaker, as the UK has put itself outside the bigger market that the EEA is. If the UK will be subject to tariffs from its bigger competitor, it makes sense for Scotland to join said bigger competitor. There are some years still to go before we're fully out, but I'd imagine that Scotland will want to start aligning their economy with the EU now, in preparation for eventual entry, as there will be pain at some point anyway, and the Common Market is enough of a prize to accept the pain now rather than later. A choice that wouldn't have been necessary had the UK remained part of the Common Market.

Also, if FTSE continues to crash like it's done already, then there's something to be gained in setting up Edinburgh as a viable competitor to London.

Depends what deals the UK can make with the common market, german pragamatism or french policing, who wins will determine that. Pound seems to have stablized at 1.3 after dropping from 1.5 to USD. Euro dropped too to a less extent, we'll see about FTSE.

[Lizardo]

Rumour has it Jeremy Corbyn voted to Leave after all.

[InsaneApache]

Actually I think this will unite the UK. Thank you Lord Jehovah for striking down upon thee the vision of buying gold days before.

Hey man my guys outta the normal stuff, noooz cud yu gi me the ti?

[Greyblades]

You can keep an eye on the pound here: http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GBPUSD%3DX+Interactive#{%22range%22:%221d%22,%22allowChartStacking%22:true}

Pound looks stable at it's new value, even grown a bit for the last hour or so, we'll see.

[InsaneApache]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLKSDT_2zPA


Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?
Wider still, and wider, shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet!

Truth and Right and Freedom, each a holy gem,
Stars of solemn brightness, weave thy diadem.

Tho' thy way be darkened, still in splendour drest,
As the star that trembles o'er the liquid West.

Throned amid the billows, throned inviolate,
Thou hast reigned victorious, thou has smiled at fate.

Land of Hope and Glory, fortress of the Free,
How may we extol thee, praise thee, honour thee?

Hark, a mighty nation maketh glad reply;
Lo, our lips are thankful, lo, our hearts are high!

Hearts in hope uplifted, loyal lips that sing;
Strong in faith and freedom, we have crowned our King!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caP7VY5trw8

[I of the Storm]

Happy now?

I sincerely hope this plays out well for the UK (soon to be England) and our british orgahs, but I fear it won't.

Good luck!

[InsaneApache]

Happy now?

I sincerely hope this plays out well for the UK (soon to be England) and our british orgahs, but I fear it won't.

Good luck!

Yes thank you.

[Lizardo]

Thats it David Cameron has become obselete. Should've played it safe and not taken sides. But I respect him for that.

[Crandar]

Cameron's resignation was very amateurish. Our Prime Minister firstly ignored the referendum, did the exact opposite thing to the people's will, and declared new elections, which he easily won.

He is still our PM and looks like he will continue to lead us for the next three years.

[Viking]

Going to have to taste on this one for a bit to see if I like the flavour.

[HopAlongBunny]

Cameron expounds a scenario of "steadying the ship" and effecting a hand off to new leadership:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36615028

[Greyblades]

We expected there would be losses. FTSE 100 dropped hugely at 8:00, then it climbed back up to reclaim half what it lost, now it's leveling out.

https://s31.postimg.org/j0nw73n5n/Untitled.png

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/indices/summary/summary-indices-chart.html?index=UKX
(http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/indices/summary/summary-indices-chart.html?index=UKX)

[Pannonian]

Motive? Yes. Means? Not now, they made an agreement with the last referendum, westminster can hold them to it for years. Economic? Thier economy is hit by this the same as ours and the EU is stil not likely let them as the spanish will be pissed at them for encouraging the catalonians, less now there is no ambiguity over no automatic transition.

Depends what deals the UK can make with the common market, german pragamatism or french policing, who wins will determine that. Pound seems to have stablized at 1.3 after dropping from 1.5 to USD. Euro dropped too to a less extent, we'll see about FTSE.

And now Sturgeon has officially confirmed that the Scottish Parliament will be pushing for a new independence referendum as a result of this.

[Beskar]

May we live in interesting times.

[Greyblades]

And now Sturgeon has officially confirmed that the Scottish Parliament will be pushing for a new independence referendum as a result of this.

2 years too late and 15 years too early.

[Pannonian]

2 years too late and 15 years too early.

It's a plebiscite, same as this. This doesn't have legal force either, but no one will disregard the result. Same with a second Scottish independence referendum.

All highly predictable even before this result, but ignored. We've made our bed, now we'll have to lie in it.

[Beskar]

The closeness of the vote is disturbing.

[Fragony]

lol for hilarity watch the end of the press-conference of Juncker and the handpicked cheermonkeys they call journalists

YOU SHALL NOT PASS (out)

what a circus

[Pannonian]

The closeness of the vote is disturbing.

Or how most of England voted to leave, whereas London, which subsidises them, was overwhelmingly remain. I wish all London's revenue is kept for spending within London, while the rest of England have to try to pay their own way.

[Beskar]

Or how most of England voted to leave, whereas London, which subsidises them, was overwhelmingly remain. I wish all London's revenue is kept for spending within London, while the rest of England have to try to pay their own way.

I did read a thing which advocated London being its own country, as it stops the rest of the UK developing due to power concentration, and it also holds back London.

[I of the Storm]

They'll have to pay for a lot of things on their own now.

Ah, but wait! They save 350 million pounds per week now, so all is fine ...:wall:

As a member of the academic community, I feel terribly sorry for my british colleagues. They are now excluded from a pool of over 70 billion euros of research funding - and Britain has always been a strong player in that field.

The positive side: less competition for the rest of us. But science and scholarship as a whole will suffer and that makes me sad.

[Pannonian]

They'll have to pay for a lot of things on their own now.

Ah, but wait! They save 350 million pounds per week now, so all is fine ...:wall:

As a member of the academic community, I feel terribly sorry for my british colleagues. They are now excluded from a pool of over 70 billion euros of research funding - and Britain has always been a strong player in that field.

The positive side: less competition for the rest of us. But science and scholarship as a whole will suffer and that makes me sad.

It's not going to be spent on the NHS, as Farage has already retracted that promise.

[I of the Storm]

The first of many more to come.

[Strike For The South]

I love it when smug leftists lose and election. Ignore the north and Wales for 30 years and then wonder why they tell you to "jog on" (is that the correct term?).

hopefully this is the first of many. I suspect Germany will try to break the UKs balls on the exit deal, maybe that will be the end of it all.

also, lol at Scotland thinking they are going to just jump back in.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The closeness of the vote is disturbing.

Politics would ALWAYS be easier if political life were a series of 70-30 wins....important decisions are seldom that clear cut.

Heck, on our side of the pond we seldom have a President elected by margins larger than that of yesterday's EU exit vote.

[Husar]

https://twitter.com/you_trend/status/746114516308606976/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

18595

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Our political fabulists are suggesting that the UK devolves into:

England

Scotland

Ireland (all 32!!!!!!!!)

Spain (taking back The Rock by plebescite)


They further suggest that England will not be the only exiting group.


What say you lot over there?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

https://twitter.com/you_trend/status/746114516308606976/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

18595

I would suggest that Churchill's old aphorism about 20 and 40 might well answer this gibe.

[Beskar]

Politics would ALWAYS be easier if political life were a series of 70-30 wins....important decisions are seldom that clear cut.

The thing is, not having it clearcut leaves a bad taste in every ones mouth. Similar with like the Scottish Indepedence which was a similar result. If it was 60/40 or 70/30 people would be like "yup, we lost, we have to accept it", but when it is 52/48 people are like "just a couple more votes would have meant we won!" which leaves them feeling angry and frustrated, and they start to blame people. "if you did a little bit more, we would have won!" etc.

Being honest though, David Cameron was a poor choice for "In", and the whole "Tories for In" and "Tories for Out" was farcical. Labour virtually did nothing, and I understand Coryn wanted leave, he should have at least stood up and said it, instead of half-heartedly not doing anything.

Libdems actually did a decent "In" campaign which didn't resort to things like "Leave would trigger WW3", but no one cares about them since the collapse under Cleggers.

[Greyblades]

Corbyn lost probably his bet chance to gain popularity. Labour's traditional supporters were the same ones voting leave and the arent going to let it go unremarked.


Our political fabulists are suggesting that the UK devolves into:

England

Scotland

Ireland (all 32!!!!!!!!)

Spain (taking back The Rock by plebescite)


They further suggest that England will not be the only exiting group.


What say you lot over there?
They're idiots, have irish blood/sympathies, or both. Scotland is the only one with a chance of leaving, Northern Ireland voted largely along the Protestant/Catholic line and while the protestants might have had some choosing to remain in the EU they sure as smeg arent going to go against the grain for a reunion vote while the IRA members are still kicking around. Gibraltar voted on a referendum in 2002 that gave remain with Britain 98%, I dont think this pissed them off that much.

Scotland... it will be sad to see them go, I hope they dont but if they feel they must the least I can do its bid them adeu, though they most certainly arent going to get back into the EU now.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Scotland... it will be sad to see them go, I hope they dont but if they feel they must the least I can do its bid them adeu, though they most certainly arent going to get back into the EU now.

Honest question, why do you think is the case? They voted strongly Remain, they will have broke off from the UK for the explicit purposes of rejoining.

Would it be along the lines of them receiving more than they give?

[Pannonian]

Corbyn lost probably his bet chance to gain popularity. Labour's traditional supporters were the same ones voting leave and the arent going to let it go unremarked.

They're idiots, have irish blood, or both. Scotland is the only one with a chance of leaving, Northern Ireland voted largely along the Protestant/Catholic line and while the protestants might have had some choosing to remain in the EU they sure as smeg arent going to go against the grain for a reunion vote while the IRA members are still kicking around. Gibraltar voted on a referendum in 2002 that gave remain with Britain 98%, I dont think this pissed them off that much.

Scotland... it will be sad to see them go, I hope they dont but if they feel they must the least I can do its bid them adeu, though they most certainly arent going to get back into the EU now.

And how would you dismiss London, which was strongly remain?

[Pannonian]

The thing is, not having it clearcut leaves a bad taste in every ones mouth. Similar with like the Scottish Indepedence which was a similar result. If it was 60/40 or 70/30 people would be like "yup, we lost, we have to accept it", but when it is 52/48 people are like "just a couple more votes would have meant we won!" which leaves them feeling angry and frustrated, and they start to blame people. "if you did a little bit more, we would have won!" etc.

Being honest though, David Cameron was a poor choice for "In", and the whole "Tories for In" and "Tories for Out" was farcical. Labour virtually did nothing, and I understand Coryn wanted leave, he should have at least stood up and said it, instead of half-heartedly not doing anything.

Libdems actually did a decent "In" campaign which didn't resort to things like "Leave would trigger WW3", but no one cares about them since the collapse under Cleggers.

London was 60/40 remain with heavy floods markedly affecting voting.

[Gilrandir]

A vote so important god is forcing an extra day before the tallying so more people can get to the ballot box in time!

Or God was trying to make you stay. At home.



What makes you think that? They have even less chance of survival now than they did 2 years ago and that referendum bound them, I think the scots are more honorable than to break thier word over this.
When they gave their word, they gave it to the UK within the EU. It is the UK changed the rules of the game.


Happy now?

I sincerely hope this plays out well for the UK (soon to be England) and our british orgahs, but I fear it won't.

Good luck!

18597
18598

[Greyblades]

And how would you dismiss London, which was strongly remain?
Cities dont get independance votes and not all of london voted remain.


Honest question, why do you think is the case? They voted strongly Remain, they will have broke off from the UK for the explicit purposes of rejoining.

Would it be along the lines of them receiving more than they give?
Scotland would have to be a major contributor as the EU arent likely in the mood for taking any more defecits right now. Aside from that; Spain wont allow it, cant be seen to support secessionists while catalonia is still waiting thier turn.

[Pannonian]

Presenter: "The £350m a week we send to the EU, which we will no longer send to the EU. Can you guarantee that's going to go to the NHS?"
Farage: "No I can't, and I would have never made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that the Leave campaign made."
Presenter: "Hang on a moment. That was one of your adverts."

https://twitter.com/jrhopkin/status/746225648306294784

‘We send the EU £350 million a week

let’s fund our NHS instead. Vote Leave.’

http://leftfootforward.org/2016/05/boris-johnsons-brexit-bus-is-peddling-a-lie-we-dont-send-eu-350m-a-week/

[Greyblades]

...Why are they asking farage? Of course he cant guarentee, he's not in power.

[Pannonian]

...Why are they asking farage? Of course he cant guarentee, he's not in power.

Let's see what Boris Johnson does then. He was the one on that bus, and he's going to be the next PM.

[Lizardo]

Excuse me it was Boris's campaign (Vote Leave) that may or may not have said that, Farage was part of Grassroots Out, not Vote Leave and plus like greyblades said Farage isn't part of the Conservative Party.

[Greyblades]

Let's see what Boris Johnson does then. He was the one on that bus, and he's going to be the next PM.
Depends on how well the conservatives hold up after this blow, right now they are slated to split.

[Lizardo]

Who would be surprised if David Cameron's next Career path lead to him being the next president of the EU? It would be just as comical as it was when Tony Blair became the Middle East peace envoy. October is a long time away for a new prime minister and I think Article 50 should be enacted and Negotiations to start right away, because the longer we wait the more volatile our currency will be. And in the mean time Negotiations with Non-EU countries for trading should take place.

Sore Losers as we speak are signing a online petition to create a 2nd referendum Claiming we need a 75 percent turn out lol and 60 percent win lol these people are idiots. Funny because that was the highest ever turn out since WW2.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Leaked Script of Labour's response to referendum result (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/leaked-labours-script-responding-terrible-referendum-result/)

[Fragony]

Binding is an incredibly difficult word it seems

[Husar]

So what if Cameron leaves, and then you get new elections, and a party runs on the promise of ignoring the referendum and not invoking article 50 and then this party gets >50% of the vote? :clown:

[Lizardo]

No there would be civil war if that happened

[Greyblades]

So what if Cameron leaves, and then you get new elections, and a party runs on the promise of ignoring the referendum and not invoking article 50 and then this party gets >50% of the vote? :clown:

Considering Juncker told us to piss off, I donts ee it happening.

[HopAlongBunny]

The Science community is worried:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/researchers-reeling-as-the-u-k-votes-to-leave-the-e-u/

In what may become a popular refrain: "gov't will compensate for shortfalls"

[Pannonian]

The Science community is worried:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/researchers-reeling-as-the-u-k-votes-to-leave-the-e-u/

In what may become a popular refrain: "gov't will compensate for shortfalls"

Cornwall pleas for reassurance it will not be 'worse off' following Brexit vote (http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2016-06-24/cornwall-pleas-for-reassurance-it-will-not-be-worse-off-following-brexit-vote/)


Cornwall has issued an urgent plea for reassurance that it will not be worse off following the Brexit vote.

The county has received a "significant amounts" of funding from the EU for the past 15 years due to its "relatively weak economy".

But, after 56.5% of voters in the county chose to leave the Union, the council says it is now seeking urgent reassurance that money allocated to it will still be received.

Prior to the vote the Council said they were told by the Leave campaign that funding would still be available.

They also said they had been told Cornwall "would not be worse off" in terms of investment they received.
Now that we know the UK will be leaving the EU we will be taking urgent steps to ensure that the UK Government protects Cornwall’s position in any negotiations.

We will be insisting that Cornwall receives investment equal to that provided by the EU programme which has averaged £60M per year over the last ten years.

– JOHN POLLARD, THE LEADER OF CORNWALL COUNCIL

Cornwall can piss off. London money for Londoners only.

[Greyblades]

Are you drunk?

[CrossLOPER]

Are you drunk?
Come on, man! Have some imagination. Every county can be its own country! There's no limit! With the US's gerrymandering skills, you can create a geopolitical landscape unseen since the Thirty Years' War!

[drone]

The true tragedy of this vote will be the decline of the Premier League. Needing work permits for the South American talent is bad enough, now the continental players will have to do the same. :no:

[Elmetiacos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvuM3DjvYf0
Aargh. Just aargh.

[Sarmatian]

The true tragedy of this vote will be the decline of the Premier League. Needing work permits for the South American talent is bad enough, now the continental players will have to do the same. :no:

Overpriced English talent to the rescue!

[HopAlongBunny]

To start the "End of the World" dance party:


https://youtu.be/Z0GFRcFm-aY

[Greyblades]

I think I just heard fireworks outside.

[InsaneApache]

We have then up here. Someone remarked the other day that it meant the drugs are here..

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So what if Cameron leaves, and then you get new elections, and a party runs on the promise of ignoring the referendum and not invoking article 50 and then this party gets >50% of the vote? :clown:

Why do you think he's putting off invoking Article 50?

Personally, I can hardly believe it - but it's not that surprising when you consider that the "Stay" campaign devolved into "Project Fear" to the extent that a lot of people are now convinced fascism is coming.

What decided it for me, I think, was the German politicians talking about how it would be "hard" if we left and they're now saying we'll "suffer" so I think we'rem well shot. Trying to intimidate the English just causes us to set our faces, and the Welsh are the same. Ireland - as noted - voted along Sectarian lines but the split wasn't that clean, about 11%, the Scottish gap at 18% is more profound, but turnout there was also 6% lower.

Gibraltar will be upset but they won't leave, especially given how quick Spain was to try to get the knife in.

If the EU is smart they'll offer the UK a deal that's better than WTO rules but not as nice as being in the EU and leave the door open for us to come back in 10 years after we've had our fill of living democratically.

Of course, in ten years the EU might have undergone the sort of reform Britain has been demanding for a couple of decades but which Italy, France and Germany are only now considering - after the horse has bolted.

[Pannonian]

Why do you think he's putting off invoking Article 50?

Personally, I can hardly believe it - but it's not that surprising when you consider that the "Stay" campaign devolved into "Project Fear" to the extent that a lot of people are now convinced fascism is coming.

What decided it for me, I think, was the German politicians talking about how it would be "hard" if we left and they're now saying we'll "suffer" so I think we'rem well shot. Trying to intimidate the English just causes us to set our faces, and the Welsh are the same. Ireland - as noted - voted along Sectarian lines but the split wasn't that clean, about 11%, the Scottish gap at 18% is more profound, but turnout there was also 6% lower.

Gibraltar will be upset but they won't leave, especially given how quick Spain was to try to get the knife in.

If the EU is smart they'll offer the UK a deal that's better than WTO rules but not as nice as being in the EU and leave the door open for us to come back in 10 years after we've had our fill of living democratically.

Of course, in ten years the EU might have undergone the sort of reform Britain has been demanding for a couple of decades but which Italy, France and Germany are only now considering - after the horse has bolted.

And London, which pays more into the kitty that funds services in the UK than any other region, voted strongly to remain. And Cornwall, having voted to leave, are now seeking reassurances from the Leave camp that EU subsidies will be replaced by ones from Westminster. I say screw them. London money for Londoners only. Let the Leavers make their own way, without London to soften their landing.

I would now support regional governments in England, with local taxation funding local services, with only defence and foreign affairs shared at a higher level. Let the southwest, Welsh, north, etc. fund themselves from their own tax money, without dipping into London's coffers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm sorry, is the wealthy Londoner coming down to earth with a bump, realising he doesn't control the country?

You lost the vote - get over it and move on.

[Pannonian]

I'm sorry, is the wealthy Londoner coming down to earth with a bump, realising he doesn't control the country?

You lost the vote - get over it and move on.

London hasn't been controlling the country, voting consistently Labour while the rest of England voted Tory. But these were elections and occurred regularly, and I'm ok with subsidising the rest of the country even though these regular elections put London at odds with the rest of the country. But this vote has results that will last for decades, and London, whose money keeps the rest of the country afloat (including fiscal black holes like the south west and Wales), has been dragged out of the EU despite voting 60% remain. If the south west value their pride that much, let them pay for it themselves. Break off the south east as far north as Essex, as far west as Berkshire, and everything to their south and east. Let the rest of England make their own way.

[InsaneApache]

You don't really get this democracy malarky do you?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Leftists see a lost election as an out right attack.

[CrossLOPER]

You don't really get this democracy malarky do you?
They can always get on that wagon full of malarky and vote their way out. Then they can build a wall to keep all the unwashed ones out while they pave their streets with platinum or whatever.

[Lizardo]

I dont understand Sturgeon or Scotland they want to leave the UK and become independent but then give it all away to Brussels?

[Fragony]

I dont understand Sturgeon or Scotland they want to leave the UK and become independent but then give it all away to Brussels?

The eurocrats will want to get even and send some bags with money, pretty smart of them really as the grapes are really sour in Brussels

[Furunculus]

BREXIT Happened – Please don’t Farage it up!

Well blow me down! I thought it would be 52:48 to Remain, not 52:48 to Leave. Now it has happened, how do we make the best of it? First of all; the sky is not falling in. It’s a big change, but the reason why the UK has survived over three centuries without revolution, invasion, or collapse, is because we always step up to a challenge. And because we know a changing world demands continual adaptation. Moreover, it is a victory won by Vote Leave not Leave.eu.

So we don’t need to run scared of Nige…

Don’t get me wrong, I am enormously impressed with his grit, tenacity, and perseverance, but his journey has led him to represent interests I simply don’t share.

So, Vote Leave:

Why did they pursue the £350m figure when the sensible choice would have been for the campaign to avoid it like unstable dynamite. They endured week after week or grueling headlines about “lies”, defending the figure night after night when everyone was saying that Leave was losing. On the one hand, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that Basic Rate income tax is 22p in the pound, regardless of whether you get 19p back in gov’t services. On the other, subtracting the repayments without also explaining the rebate would have been a shambles, ripe for endless ridicule in what passed for serious referendum debate. But surely they would have had a much easier time defending the straight net figure of £120m/week? After all, in terms of public debate £120m is an enormous figure just like £350m, but without all the baggage.

Is it because their plan entails joining EFTA/EEA in the event of winning the referendum? If the plan is to join EFTA then there will be a significant cost per head, roughly the same as Norway pays today, and roughly the same as the net cost we pay in total to the EU right now. “Vote Leave to save nothing!” That would have been the headline if they’d gone with the £120m/week figure. Sure, we still save nothing having joined EFTA after talking about £350m, but now we’re back to the income tax argument. ‘We’ get to decide what to do with the other £230m. A fairly nominal victory afterwards, but at least it doesn’t look ridiculous as would have been the case had they opted for a more accurate figure. Take back control!

Hold on, you say; all well and good, but doesn’t EFTA involve the four freedoms, one of which is the free movement? Why yes. But, didn’t they spend every waking minute in the debates talking about how they would reduce immigration to a trickle? I didn’t hear that claim. Gove, Johnson, and Leadsom all conspicuously avoided ever being tied down to any commitment on how much they would reduce migration by. So much so, that the Remain camp started to use it as an attack against Leave, constantly baiting the trio that they were hiding plans for even HIGHER migration than Remain. Because, isn’t that what happens under Australia’s points-based system relative to Britain. Did you lose track of that in the repeated incantation of “Take back control”?

You can’t “Take back control” when the regime of freedom of movement persists, surely? True, but somebody somewhere obviously thought the schengen crisis would in future provide some scope for revisiting this. It may not amount to much, perhaps only reducing the legal threshold by which someone may be excluded due to the threat they pose. Would this be enough? It might have to be, because the 48% that voted Remain see freedom of movement as totemic to their EUropean identity. Retaining freedom of movement within EFTA may be enough to shoot the SNP fox. The four freedoms are also deemed crucial by small but important demographics such as Gibraltar.

Would freedom of movement be a betrayal of many of those who voted “Out” from the Labour heartland towns? Sure, but that isn’t my problem, and it isn’t Tory party’s either. Seriously, I’m a middle-class classical-liberal in a tech profession with a decade of experience under my collection of qualifications. Freedom of movement is great! But why has Labour been unable to understand that freedom of movement has never been seen as a reciprocal right by its core electorate? Yes, it’s great that Mikel and Bartec can come here and work (really, it is), but of what use is freedom of movement to Damon and Jordan with the five E-C grade GCSE’s? Essentially, any betrayal is a problem for the Labour party, and a boon to the Tory’s.

This last is a warning to the left-wing that feeling salty about the referendum result isn’t good enough. If you care about your ‘constituency’ then you need to address the problem when it comes up in the negotiation, because neo-liberal conservatives aren’t going to expend political capital doing it for you. EFTA could be just a transitional thing while a more bespoke arrangement is put in place. Put your shoulder to the wheel, even if that means limiting your ability to sip Kraft beer whenever the mood takes.

One last point on trade. It should be tariff free with the developing world. It should be supported by lowering business taxes to compete with cheap imports. That should be paid for by slashing the DfID budget in half. It would make a lovely change if, having escaped the EU external tariff border, we helped developing nations get richer with trade. This, as opposed to hiding behind the EU’s tariff wall, and making ourselves feel better about their continued poverty by giving billions in aid so that despots and quangos can swan around sunny parts of the world in Toyota Landcruisers.

This objective is also achievable from within EFTA.😉

p.s. Why do pundits keep describing the result as decisive? It was not, which is why measures to assuage the fears of the 48% are important.

[Furunculus]

So what if Cameron leaves, and then you get new elections, and a party runs on the promise of ignoring the referendum and not invoking article 50 and then this party gets >50% of the vote? :clown:

then we resort to article 61 in the original treaty of magna carta: lawful rebellion.

i.e. we turn up in front of parliament with burning brands and erect a gibbet.

[Greyblades]

Brexit was a flawed campaign that could have been lost if come up against someone with a good sense of public relations, bremain alas had none.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

London hasn't been controlling the country, voting consistently Labour while the rest of England voted Tory. But these were elections and occurred regularly, and I'm ok with subsidising the rest of the country even though these regular elections put London at odds with the rest of the country. But this vote has results that will last for decades, and London, whose money keeps the rest of the country afloat (including fiscal black holes like the south west and Wales), has been dragged out of the EU despite voting 60% remain. If the south west value their pride that much, let them pay for it themselves. Break off the south east as far north as Essex, as far west as Berkshire, and everything to their south and east. Let the rest of England make their own way.

Have you considered that the reason we voted "Leave" outside of our own little Micro-London of Exeter is that we just haven't been seeing the benefit? Londoners talk about subsidising the UK the way Victorians talk about housing the poor. The South West is poor because it relies on farming and UK farming has ever been a target of the EU because the CAP benefit French farming.

[HopAlongBunny]

BBC DeadRingers:

http://bbc.in/28QdRD6

[Husar]

You don't really get this democracy malarky do you?

How is London not wanting to pay for Wales any different from Britain not wanting to pay for Poland?
Freedom for London I say!

[Fragony]

uhm yeah, leftist logic keeps amazing.

Anyways, we finally gotten to the bottom of it, brexit is all about Turkey and his highness in particular. finally someone who just says it

[Husar]

Rightist logic keeps amazing.

Turns out it was all lies and now they are falling apart.

[Fragony]

Turns out it was all lies and now they are falling apart.

oh, is that so

[InsaneApache]

https://dalstonmercury.wordpress.com/2016/06/25/dalston-mayor-quits-after-shock-brexit-vote/

:laugh4:

[Gilrandir]

The Science community is worried:


And what community is not?


Trying to intimidate the English just causes us to set our faces

Yep, the English are not that easy to be intimidate:
18610

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3128202.stm

[Kralizec]

Who would be surprised if David Cameron's next Career path lead to him being the next president of the EU?

Anybody with a brain would be surprised when a citizen of a non-EU country becomes "president of the EU" :rolleyes:


Binding is an incredibly difficult word it seems

This referendum is not binding. The government certainly isn't going to ignore the result, but legally it isn't required to act on it.


What decided it for me, I think, was the German politicians talking about how it would be "hard" if we left and they're now saying we'll "suffer" so I think we'rem well shot. Trying to intimidate the English just causes us to set our faces, and the Welsh are the same. Ireland - as noted - voted along Sectarian lines but the split wasn't that clean, about 11%, the Scottish gap at 18% is more profound, but turnout there was also 6% lower.

If you're talking about Schauble (German finance minister) I think his point was that getting Britain into a similar relationship to the EU as Norway or Switzerland has would entirely defeat the point of leaving. EFTA is actually a bit of a misnomer, as it goes far beyond free trade. It includes freedom of movement and a large part, perhaps the majority, of regulations the EU has set.
Sovereignty and anti-immigration sentiment were important motivations for Brexit voters. Becoming an EFTA member goes against both, plus it actually removes the UK's say in those regulations.

If it's not Schauble, I wonder who you're thinking of, and wether or not you actually paid attention to what he or she said...instead of just going by the headlines.


If the EU is smart they'll offer the UK a deal that's better than WTO rules but not as nice as being in the EU and leave the door open for us to come back in 10 years after we've had our fill of living democratically.

Ten years seems like a fairly short time. But it could happen, and the EU could change a lot in that time - for better or worse. It seems unlikely though that the UK will get as many opt-out clauses as they currently have.

[Lizardo]

Nigel Farage has reacted with fury after Vote Leave said it would exclude him from a cross-party committee which will negotiate Britain’s exit from the European Union. The UK Independence Party leader said that he would use his position as head of the Ukip group in the European Parliament – the biggest group of British MEPs – to ensure he had a say over the terms of British breakaway from the EU. Senior Vote Leave sources on Friday made clear that Mr Farage would not be invited to join the committee negotiating the Brexit. One told The Telegraph: “Nigel Farage’s involvement has come to an end.” Mr Farage responded furiously. He said: “I just don’t understand these people – they will never give me credit for anything. "I have tried for nearly a year to work with these people and fight on a common agenda and they don’t want to know.” (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/furious-nigel-farage-to-take-control-of-britains-exit-from-the-e/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Makes you wonder why they wouldn't let his campaign become official and government funded. Are we going to get a bad deal now? Because Nigel Farage is a man true to his word the higher up knew this and pre planned in the event of a brexit, I bet we are going to get stuffed I trust Nigel Farage to fight for us and the common people more than Boris and Michael Gove. Carswell and his Tory team want to keep Nigel away from negotiations where they want to avoid immigration reduction.

[Beskar]

Brexit was a flawed campaign that could have been lost if come up against someone with a good sense of public relations, bremain alas had none.

As InsaneApache puts it "Remain was led by a buttered potato".

Ashame that the Liberal Democrats were decimated last election, they would have done a really good Remain campaign, since they are the most pro-EU party. I did see a trickle of their campaigning, and it was a spirited and optimistic one. Unfortunately, it was overshadowed by a buttered potato who isn't even pro-EU.

Thing is, basically everyone campaign wise neglected my local area (except for a stall in the Town Centre led by a Libdem candidate and her daughter) which led to 70% voting out.

[Beskar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

[Husar]

oh, is that so

Yes, you could see it if you wanted to.

[Montmorency]

Yes, you could see it if you wanted to.

He could want it if you saw it.

[Montmorency]

19 weeks...


As for an exit in 2017, or 2018, or 2020, or 2030, the UK will continue to decline economically beyond the scope of its ancient regional relations, or the hourly and daily fluctuations of stock exchange figures. And for all the 'more or less', sovereignty is the thing that is affected least by the outcome. More sovereignty even in maintaining membership while illegally cherrypicking standing EU obligations to the point of sanctions.


On a side note, to truly appreciate the rhetorical work of a politician with respect to the development of policy, one must be prepared to view all people as enemies - in a Hobbesian sense.


I'm not back. Not yet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If1vafTxHjw

[Greyblades]

Will you have stopped sulking in 19 weeks?

[Montmorency]

I was gone for 19 weeks. I've been sulking ever since I joined the forum.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

How is London not wanting to pay for Wales any different from Britain not wanting to pay for Poland?
Freedom for London I say!

Because, to date, London has not exercised sovereignty independently of England.

[Husar]

Because, to date, London has not exercised sovereignty independently of England.

Well, there used to be the Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, ....

[Fragony]

Yes, you could see it if you wanted to.

Going to go all EU-style on you and just dismiss everything you bring up even if it makes sense, and call you a hippie if I don't have an answer.

[Greyblades]

Well, there used to be the Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, ....

Wessex became England, and Wessex was the one that turned a large walled settlement into it's capital. Before that it was tossed around between sussex and the danes IIRC.

[edyzmedieval]

All right, so the UK voted for Brexit. 52% of voters expressed their democratic opinion to leave the European Union.

Now... well, expect Scotland to do the same. Scotland desire for independence, Northern Ireland desire for either union with Eire or secession from the UK and subsequent political movements in the European Union.

[Husar]

Going to go all EU-style on you and just dismiss everything you bring up even if it makes sense, and call you a hippie if I don't have an answer.

You're still wrong, you hippie.


Wessex became England, and Wessex was the one that turned a large walled settlement into it's capital. Before that it was tossed around between sussex and the danes IIRC.

Freedom for Sussex! Let Mercia take back control! Northumbria for Northumbrians!

[Greyblades]

I dont think there are all that many people in my area who knows that Essex used to be a kingdom either. Honestly the idea seems about as absurd as meccan independance from Arabia.

I'm still not convinced on the ireland bit.

A yes to the EU doesnt necissarily translate to a yes to independance, and the Irish dont have the same degree of pre-existing discontent that the scots have, I dare say some republicans will make the noises but unless we screw up in the near future I think it will come to nought even if scotland leaves.

[Lizardo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Npdgk_pBeU

And I think NI joining Ireland is a joke too. Remember there is approximately 40 percent of scottish people who do not want join the EU

[Fragony]

You're still wrong, you hippie.

You are doing it wrong, I am supposed to be the fascist in the Grand-EU Theater.

[Gilrandir]

Wessex became England, and Wessex was the one that turned a large walled settlement into it's capital.
Winchester or Camelot?




Let Mercia take back control!

They will once they choose someone named Offa for their leader.

[Husar]

I dont think there are all that many people in my area who knows that Essex used to be a kingdom either. Honestly the idea seems about as absurd as meccan independance from Arabia.

As does the idea of Britain prospering independently from the rest of Europe.
But look at the cultural differences, not only does London have a completely different culture from Wessex, they also don't speak the same language as they do in Manchester. London could take back control of its money by parting from the rest of the annoying bunch. Manchester could then raise the taxes for the rich to benefit its working class, especially because there'd be no rich people left to complain. Wessex could just bask in its nationalist glory without having to share it with others and so on.


You are doing it wrong, I am supposed to be the fascist in the Grand-EU Theater.

According to your own political theory, I can easily out-fascist you if I just move a bit to the left from a socialist position. ~;p

[Pannonian]

As does the idea of Britain prospering independently from the rest of Europe.
But look at the cultural differences, not only does London have a completely different culture from Wessex, they also don't speak the same language as they do in Manchester. London could take back control of its money by parting from the rest of the annoying bunch. Manchester could then raise the taxes for the rich to benefit its working class, especially because there'd be no rich people left to complain. Wessex could just bask in its nationalist glory without having to share it with others and so on.

It's idiots like those in Cornwall and Sunderland who deserve to be cut off. I've already cited Cornwall's gall at voting out and demanding that Westminster make up the shortfall resulting from discontinued EU subsidies. Workers at a car plant in Sunderland have also proudly voted out then complained when the company hinted that it may move its operations continent-side as a result of likely subsequent different trade conditions.

IA is right, socialism is dead. There is no reason for those who make money to subsidise those who don't. Let the west and north make of life what they will, with the profitable south east breaking off.

[InsaneApache]

Suck it up mate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceafx0Y3bB0

[Crandar]

Shame on the old people for hijacking the future of the educated youth (https://www.facebook.com/212667045793913/videos/vb.212667045793913/212815595779058/?type=2&theater)!

Well she voted like seniority, but you get the picture.

[InsaneApache]

Shame on the old people for hijacking the future of the educated youth (https://www.facebook.com/212667045793913/videos/vb.212667045793913/212815595779058/?type=2&theater)!

Well she voted like seniority, but you get the picture.

This is exactly why remain lost. The contempt and sneering against the working classes was redolent of a tory squire in the 19th century.

[Crandar]

This is exactly why remain lost. The contempt and sneering against the working classes was redolent of a tory squire in the 19th century.
Back then the offspring of the working class had to assist their parents in the coal mines, so illiteracy is excused. Nowadays, not so much.
Manicure, Miley Cyrus and facebook are not as valid as feeding your family.

So, ridiculing her for not knowing what referendum means is fine.
By the way, ignorance like that is not limited to the working class.

[InsaneApache]

So, ridiculing her for not knowing what referendum means is fine.
By the way, ignorance like that is not limited to the working class.

I quite agree.

However the only qualification to vote is to live until you're 18 years old.

Still a nice result for all those fruitcake loon racists dontcha think!

[Beskar]

Shame on the old people for hijacking the future of the educated youth (https://www.facebook.com/212667045793913/videos/vb.212667045793913/212815595779058/?type=2&theater)!

Well she voted like seniority, but you get the picture.

I am confused to what point you are trying to make.

[Lizardo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClziHSkWgAEesgG.jpg

Read this Article: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/25/carswell-hannan-freeze-farage-wont-stop-immigration/

[Greyblades]

It is entirely natural to become agitated after a dissapointment of this magnitude, if they are still this bad in a week or two then it's getting into overreaction territory.

[Pannonian]

I wonder what you think of Farage's statement that the victory was won "without a single bullet being fired".

[Husar]

I wonder what you think of Farage's statement that the victory was won "without a single bullet being fired".

What about the bullet fired at Mrs. Cox?

[Greyblades]

I wonder what you think of Farage's statement that the victory was won "without a single bullet being fired".

...I dont know, maybe he doesnt count the bullet when it being fired contriubted nothing to the victory?

[InsaneApache]

You lot have forgotten the virtue of democracy,

Government changes without a violent revolution.

We have nice and quiet and peaceful revolution every five years or so.

It's the British way.

:2thumbsup:

[Pannonian]

Guarantees wanted over the future of European millions (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/guarantees-wanted-over-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120)


COUNCIL leaders in Yorkshire are expected to move quickly to seek assurances from the Government in key areas in the wake of the Brexit vote.

A major priority will be to secure guarantees over the £600m of EU funding the region is due to receive to help grow Yorkshire’s economy between now and 2020.

The money became a significant issue in the campaign as concerns were expressed about the possible impact of Brexit on areas like Yorkshire, which have historically been major recipients of EU cash.

In a key moment of the campaign, Vote Leave pledged that in the event of an out vote, money saved from Britain’s EU ‘membership fee’ would be used to fill the gap.

However, with Vote Leave being a cross-party campaign organisation rather than the Government, it is not clear what weight that guarantee will carry.

Council leaders in the region are also expected to press the case for accelerated moves towards handing more powers into local control.

They are likely to seek reassurances that leaving the EU will not be a cover for concentrating decision-making in London.

Concern has already been expressed that the prospect of David Cameron’s departure from Downing St could put current devolution discussions in doubt.

Ed Cox, director of the IPPR North thinktank, said: “The people have spoken, but in the North they have shouted. The signs of malaise with the Westminster elite have been there for some time.

“Whatever you believe about the Northern Powerhouse, few can deny that our trading relationships with our (soon to be former) EU partners matter much more to northern businesses than they do to the City of London.

“We need to define the kind of economy we want to become. Our obsession with the big cities and aggregate growth must take a new turn and wake up to the cries of those on the margins who are busy manufacturing the goods we will now struggle harder to sell overseas.”

He added: “Politically, we should let devolution rip. Both major political parties must reinvent themselves from the bottom up with more plural local political systems that bring people closer to power.”

Devolution should press on, with Yorkshire and the north east getting its own government. And that government should tax and fund its own business themselves, without drawing on London's money. Outside defence and foreign affairs, every region should raise its own taxes and fund its own government, without having any of it hived off to support other regions.

[Fragony]

I don't know how far google-translate handles this but it is a pretty good musing of Geenstijl http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2016/06/brexithof.html#more

[Pannonian]

View from Wales: town showered with EU cash votes to leave EU (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale)


“What’s the EU ever done for us?” Zak Kelly, 21, asks me this standing next to a brand new complex of buildings and facilities that wouldn’t look out of place in Canary Wharf. It’s not Canary Wharf, though, it’s Ebbw Vale, a former steel town of 18,000 people in the heart of the Welsh valleys, where 62% of the population – the highest proportion in Wales – voted Leave.

To go there – along a new dual carriageway – and stand next to the town’s new sixth form and training college, a glass and steel architectural showpiece next to its new leisure centre, a few hundred yards away from a new train station, is to stare into the abyss of the UK’s failed Remain campaign.

Even Kelly, who has just finished a training session on a brand new football pitch, backtracks slightly after asking that question. “Well, I know … they built all this,” he says, and motions his head at the impressive facilities that are all around us. “But we put in more money than we get out, don’t we?”

...

Her customers, however, thought differently. “There was only one word people had on their mind: immigration. They didn’t look at the facts at all.”

Are there any immigrants in Ebbw Vale? “No! Hardly any. And the ones there are are all working, all contributing. It’s just … illogical. I just don’t think people looked at the facts at all.”

It’s a town with almost no immigrants that voted to get the immigrants out. A town that has been showered with EU cash that no longer wants to be part of the EU.

...

Wales isn’t just a net EU beneficiary, EU capital funding has been an essential part of attracting firms to come here. All around town are signs marked with the EU flag for the Ebbw Vale enterprise zone. The website notes that as an EU tier 1 area, “companies can benefit from the highest level of grant aid in the UK”. Earlier this year the sports car company TVR announced it would build a factory and create 150 jobs there. Will it still come? Will the Circuit of Wales, a multimillion-pound motor racing circuit a private company has been proposing to build on the town’s outskirts creating 6,000 jobs? Will the £1.8bn of EU cash promised to Wales for projects until 2020 still arrive? And what happens after? Will central government really give more money to Ebbw Vale than the EU has?

Even Kelly looks like he could be doubtful on this point. “David Cameron got a good kicking,” he says. So, what about Boris Johnson? Do you want him? “No way. He’s London through and through. He’ll just forget about Wales.”

Or as Michael Sheen, the Welsh-born actor from Port Talbot, tweeted: “Wales votes to trust a new and more rightwing Tory leadership to invest as much money into its poorer areas as EU has been doing.”

“It is what it is,” says Kelly. “We’ll see, won’t we?”

“But we put in more money than we get out, don’t we?” Something that can be said for London regarding the UK as a whole. If Wales feels aggrieved that the UK does not get back as much as it contributes, likewise with London and the UK. Rather than the UK putting in however much money and part of that being granted back to Wales, let Wales raise all its funding by itself. London money for Londoners only.

[Greyblades]

The money the EU gave to the various areas of the country was £4.5 billion, the money our government gave to the EU was 13 Billion, the UK can take that 13 billion they no longer have to pay, use it to cover the needs of the nations who relied on the EU and still have 8 billion left over to do whatever we want with.

Will the government do that? That depends on your vote next election, you, me and every voting man and woman must vote in the politicians who we think can get it done, and considering the two main parties are set to break up we can now afford to vote for third parties, the big two can go straight to hell.

It's too late to change the direction but we can make this direction work.

[Gilrandir]

It looks like it's not done yet. Scotland wants to veto Brexit:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

[Greyblades]

I hope to god the Scots are seeing this, thier independance leader wants to overrule a populations decision to leave a union.

[Pannonian]

The money the EU gave to the various areas of the country was £4.5 billion, the money our government gave to the EU was 13 Billion, the UK can take that 13 billion they no longer have to pay, use it to cover the needs of the nations who relied on the EU and still have 8 billion left over to do whatever we want with.

Will the government do that? That depends on your vote next election, you, me and every voting man and woman must vote in the politicians who we think can get it done, and considering the two main parties are set to break up we can now afford to vote for third parties, the big two can go straight to hell.

It's too late to change the direction but we can make this direction work.

A disproportionate amount of the numbers the UK gave was from London. Why should London hand out money to the regions to subsidise them? If we no longer have to fund these failing areas, we can concentrate investing on infrastructure in the south east that directly or indirectly benefits us. Why should London tax money that can be spent on Kent be spent on Wales or Yorkshire or Cornwall? People commute into London from the neighbouring counties. That's all we need to spend on. If the regions want investment, they can pay for it themselves. Socialism is dead, as IA is fond of reminding us. The regions should stop skiving off London, and start pulling their socks up and deal with their own problems.

[Beskar]

Anyone notice how Boris Johnson and Michael Grove don't seem too happy with the result? It is as if they hijacked the EU leave campaign for popularity and expected to lose...oops!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars?CMP=fb_gu

[Fragony]

Lib dems have promised if they get elected, they will block leaving the EU too.

Must be underestimating the disgust or outright hate. If there was ever a time to walk on eggs very carefully it's now

[Greyblades]

A disproportionate amount of the numbers the UK gave was from London. Why should London hand out money to the regions to subsidise them? If we no longer have to fund these failing areas, we can concentrate investing on infrastructure in the south east that directly or indirectly benefits us. Why should London tax money that can be spent on Kent be spent on Wales or Yorkshire or Cornwall? People commute into London from the neighbouring counties. That's all we need to spend on. If the regions want investment, they can pay for it themselves. Socialism is dead, as IA is fond of reminding us. The regions should stop skiving off London, and start pulling their socks up and deal with their own problems.
Because desipte your apparant wishes you are British and to be openly contemplating such selfishness agianst your fellow countrymen over a lost vote is a disgrace to such a degree that heightened emotions in the face of such dissapointment is becoming insufficent to excuse.


Lib dems have promised if they get elected, they will block leaving the EU too.
So like the SNP they betray their ideals for points.


Anyone notice how Boris Johnson and Michael Grove don't seem too happy with the result? It is as if they hijacked the EU leave campaign for popularity and expected to lose...oops!

"hijacked" They jumped on the bandwagon and at best acted to increase it's momentum, though likely more a detriment as they eagerly joined in on the war of lies. Either way a guardian opinion peice is not the place to get accurate insight on thier intentions.

[Lizardo]

I totally agree with Beskar, the elites and tories have been colluding Daniel Hannan, Boris Johnson, Douglas Carswell and some Labour leave have set up a cross party brexit team excluding Nigel Farage and UKIP, This takes the piss the fight is not over yet. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/25/carswell-hannan-freeze-farage-wont-stop-immigration/

It was reported months ago Boris Johnson had prepared 2 Columns to write in the newspapers one for leave and one for remain. He decided to campaign for leave, due to it being better for his political career even if we did remain so BJ is a fraud. Corbyn is a fraud aswell he had campaigned for the earlier part of his political career against the EU but when he came to power in the labour party he changed his tune, Power corrupts

[Pannonian]

Because desipte your apparant wishes you are British and to be openly contemplating such selfishness agianst your fellow countrymen over a lost vote is a disgrace to such a degree that heightened emotions in the face of such dissapointment is becoming insufficent to excuse.


You said that we can make this direction work. It would be a lot easier for the south east to make this work if we don't have to pay for the regions because of their failings. Besides, as the Yorkshire piece makes clear, they're not too fond of London anyway, and want their own government away from the London-centrism of Westminster. Let them have their own government, and let them pay for it as well.

[Beskar]

So like the SNP they betray their ideals for points.


Here is the article: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/lib-dems-promise-to-keep-britain-in-the-eu-if-brexit-sparks-general-election-5966965/

[Greyblades]

...*sigh* fair enough, I retract my previous statment, if the Lib dems do indeed get a nationwide majority on this platform they will have the right to overrule the referendum, for the five years before the next election kicks them back to the curb.


You said that we can make this direction work. It would be a lot easier for the south east to make this work if we don't have to pay for the regions because of their failings. Besides, as the Yorkshire piece makes clear, they're not too fond of London anyway, and want their own government away from the London-centrism of Westminster. Let them have their own government, and let them pay for it as well.

Regional contempt and seperatism based not on legitimate grevences but a difference of opinion in a national debate, have you considered that they arent fond of you prercisely because of this attitude you are exhibiting?

[Pannonian]

...*sigh* fair enough, I retract my previous statment, if the Lib dems do indeed get a nationwide majority on this platform they will have the right to overrule the referendum, for the five years before the next election kicks them back to the curb.

Regional contempt and seperatism based not on legitimate grevences but a difference of opinion in a national debate, have you considered that they arent fond of you prercisely because of this attitude you are exhibiting?

And the feeling is reciprocated. But if the argument that money going out of London, via the EU, and into Wales and their like, is a bad thing, then it's still a bad thing when it goes out of London and directly into Wales. The new direction is to opt out of the socialist EU, as Britain is a fundamentally non-socialist country. So let's ditch all the socialist pretensions of looking after the poorer regions. More money going out than coming in is a bad thing, as your argument goes. Let's apply it to Britain. Let the regions balance their own books, without London bailing them out.

[Greyblades]

The argument is that the EU is a shit intermediary with an even greater anti democratic structure and agenda than our own parlaiment has and should be done away with.

The money going straight to wales and the like instead of through the EU gives the same effect, saves us the middleman fee of 8 billion pounds and means that the unelected middleman stops being able to tell us what we can and cannot do in our own country.

You're the one arguing against looking after the poor regions for the sake of saving money, not me.

[Pannonian]

The argument is that the EU is a shit intermediary with an even greater anti democratic structure and agenda than our own parlaiment has and should be done away with.

The money going straight to wales and the like instead of through the EU gives the same effect, saves us the middleman fee of 8 billion pounds and means that the unelected middleman stops being able to tell us what we can and cannot do in our own country.

You're the one arguing against looking after the poor regions for the sake of saving money, not me.

Never mind about the middleman. Let's cut out the redistribution bit altogether. Britain is not a socialist country. We're not in the business of making the poor richer. Let the regions pay their own way, with their own governments raising the money themselves then deciding what to do with the money they've raised from their own people. It would be a better reflection of what each region can get up to, without the nonsense of taking from the rich to give to the poor.

[Greyblades]

Is this leading up to a "yeah, now you see how shit your position is" point or are you actually going full Austrian school economics on us?

[Pannonian]

Either will do, as long as we no longer have to pay for these places that don't benefit us. I don't see why people in Yorkshire should be able to dictate to people in London what we can and can't do. The sooner regional governments are up and running the better, as long as their budgets are entirely funded from their own taxes. Central government to deal with country-wide issues only.

[Greyblades]

Then we will have to disagree.

I think right now we need to tend to our own and we are better off making decisions on our own. If you dont consider anyone outside london your own so be it, but we think of you as ours despite the grumbling and untill that changes we'd go to the hilt for you and expect you to do the same for us.

If you want to throw that good will away out of dissapointment over a single decision, that is your loss, but you will never be free of us as long as you stand on our soil.

[Fragony]

That, and buy a fancy English sportscar while this lasts, you have just about a year or something to do that very cheaply. Prediction is one bad year, recovery after that.

[Gilrandir]

If you want to throw that good will away out of dissapointment over a single decision, that is your loss, but you will never be free of us as long as you stand on our soil.

Some time soon it's gonna be several "our soils", I guess.

[PROVOST]

https://i.imgur.com/gTMLDop.gif

https://s33.postimg.org/onffml6b3/13501843_10154242091586684_5056709535682974506_n.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Pannonian]

Then we will have to disagree.

I think right now we need to tend to our own and we are better off making decisions on our own. If you dont consider anyone outside london your own so be it, but we think of you as ours despite the grumbling and untill that changes we'd go to the hilt for you and expect you to do the same for us.

If you want to throw that good will away out of dissapointment over a single decision, that is your loss, but you will never be free of us as long as you stand on our soil.

I consider the south east my own soil, and London in particular my own. I don't see myself stepping foot in Yorkshire, Wales or Cornwall any time soon. I've been to Paris more recently than I've been to any of these places.

[Lizardo]

-snip-

Honk Kong wants to join the UK http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/26/just-days-brexit-hong-kong-protesters-call-country-rejoin-uk/

Liberal Democrats go full communist: The Liberal Democrat party has pledged to ignore the Brexit vote as part of their next general election campaign, positioning themselves as the party of the “48 per cent” who voted to remain inside the European Union (EU).

“Nigel Farage’s vision for Britain has won this vote, but it is not a vision I accept”, declared Lib Dem leader Tim Farron yesterday. “Even though the vote was close, the majority of British people want us to leave. But we refuse to give up on our beliefs”, he said. (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/26/lib-dems-do-not-accept-farages-vision-brexit-vote-will-fight-result/)

[Greyblades]

Some time soon it's gonna be several "our soils", I guess.
Maybe, hope not.

I consider the south east my own soil, and London in particular my own. I don't see myself stepping foot in Yorkshire, Wales or Cornwall any time soon. I've been to Paris more recently than I've been to any of these places.

So have I, doesnt make me french.

[Beskar]

Daniel Hannan - Immigration won't be cut. (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/newsnights-evan-davis-loses-brexit-8281875#rlabs=7%20rt$category%20p$1)


Faisal Islam, Sky News Journalist, Says Pro-Brexit MP Told Him: ""there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one" (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/faisal-islam-brexit-no-plan_uk_576fe22ee4b0d2571149cffd?cdj84pt2m1v2t9)

[Greyblades]

Daniel Hannan - Immigration won't be cut. (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/newsnights-evan-davis-loses-brexit-8281875#rlabs=7%20rt$category%20p$1) Daniel Hannon lost his job, and now isnt getting another in westminster.


Faisal Islam, Sky News Journalist, Says Pro-Brexit MP Told Him: ""there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one" (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/faisal-islam-brexit-no-plan_uk_576fe22ee4b0d2571149cffd?cdj84pt2m1v2t9)

No duh leave doesnt have a post brexit plan, it's entire structure meant it was to die upon victory and had no obligation to be agreed on the aftermath. Each person who wanted to leaver has his own idea on what to do next, UK democracy will see which one wins out.

[Beskar]

There is a lot of general upset with the leave campaign from many "Out" voters after recent things in the news about all the lies and scandals which are now showing up.

Quoting from someone who voted Out: "I am really upset, these people such be held to account, I voted in good faith with what I was being told, and turns out they lied about it all"

In other news, increase in racist incidents post-brexit.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales?CMP=fb_gu

:sad:

[Fragony]

There is a lot of general upset with the leave campaign from many "Out" voters after recent things in the news about all the lies and scandals which are now showing up.

Quoting from someone who voted Out: "I am really upset, these people such be held to account, I voted in good faith with what I was being told, and turns out they lied about it all"

Of course there are lies. It's a direction not a solution that fixes everything, those who think it was are really dumb. But the direction is good imho

[AntiDamascus]

That's a lovely way of thinking. Yea we lied, but it was to get us to this point, now start fixing the thing we caused.

[Pannonian]

No duh leave doesnt have a post brexit plan, it's entire structure meant it was to die upon victory and had no obligation to be agreed on the aftermath. Each person who wanted to leaver has his own idea on what to do next, UK democracy will see which one wins out.

In other words, something irrevocable whose effects will last for decades does not and should not have a manifesto against which its promises can be gauged.


Of course there are lies. It's a direction not a solution that fixes everything, those who think it was are really dumb. But the direction is good imho

And a good thing there isn't an actionable manifesto, as lies to get people to vote to this point are an acceptable way of conning really dumb people into voting for this. But the direction is good, so the ends justify the means.

[Greyblades]

Damascus: My thinking is "these idiots jumped on my bandwagon and lied while being pulled along by us, your side lied back harder, had public sympathy for the murder of a politician, had support from all sides, and you still lost, because my side's underlying arguments and convictions were stronger"

[Greyblades]

In other words, something irrevocable whose effects will last for decades does not and should not have a manifesto against which its promises can be gauged. Or in other words the greatest question of the day was answered by a referendum and what happens next is up to us. Promise and manifeso are moot because this isnt an election; no one man or group is being given power and thus has to live up to promises they made. It was not an issue of "what i will do for you" it was "which option do you like better". If you actually decided based on the promised of the leave you are no less foolish than if you decided on the promise of the remain, for their promises were no less baseless.

[Pannonian]

Or in other words the greatest question of the day was answered by a referendum and what happens next is up to us. Promise and manifeso are moot because this isnt an election; no one man or group is being given power and thus has to live up to promises they made. It was not an issue of "what i will do for you" it was "which option do you like better". If you actually decided based on the promised of the leave you are no less foolish than if you decided on the promise of the remain, for their promises were no less baseless.

And there I was thinking that I was living the promises of the remain camp.

[Husar]

Damascus: My thinking is "these idiots jumped on my bandwagon and lied while being pulled along by us, your side lied back harder, had public sympathy for the murder of a politician, had support from all sides, and you still lost, because my side's underlying arguments and convictions lies were stronger"

Corrected.
You can thank me later.

There are also stories of people who voted leave to spite politicians and because they thought remain would win anyway. As an outsider I have to say it's a great show of political incompetence. :laugh4:

Which makes all the praise of the great democratic traditions of Britain even more hilarious of course.

[Fragony]

Laugh again when your savings are going to be spread, it has already been decided

Nexit will be next, we will team up with England, Denmark and Norway

[Greyblades]

And there I was thinking that I was living the promises of the remain camp.
I'm sorry are we in WW3 now? Someone should tell Europe, I'm sure they'd like to know their leaders are supposed to be turning thier back on us, and that the're behind on throwing our people in thier lands out of their homes.

[Husar]

Laugh again when your savings are going to be spread, it has already been decided

:laugh4:
You really seem to live in your own world.
Why else would you think that I had savings of more than 100k € or thereabouts?
Would it really hurt me to lose some if I did? Could I not afford food anymore if my 200k € in savings got cut by 10%? Would I lose my home? My car? My computer? My yacht? Maybe my private jet and helicopter?

People who save cash for retirement obviously put it under their pillow where the gubmint ain't get it or give it to a banker so he can invest and then lose it in the next financial crisis. Maybe a Nexit and Dexit will ruin your retirement funds right away, but then you can start saving again in the knowledge that at least there won't be any foreigners paying taxes into your retirement fund when you get old.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/dutch-britain-quitting-eu-geert-wilders-netherlands


To give a sense of the Dutch inclination for Europhobia: Wilders currently polls at less than 20% of the vote. The Netherlands has a real democracy rather than a first-past-the-post system so 20% really means just 20%.

Oh and this is for everyone, emphasis mine:


For a sense of how important this is, one might quote the most important Europhobe billionaire, Australian-born, US immigrant Rupert Murdoch. When asked why he opposed the EU, Murdoch was recently quoted as saying that this was “easy” to understand: “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

:clown:

[Lizardo]

Not only is Trump fair game for assassination attempts now, Farage is also a legitimate target for the Twitter Hitsquad (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/20/shoot-and-stab-nigel-farage-hundreds-of-social-media-messages-urging-attacks-on-ukip-leader-revealed/)

1) A BREXIT GOVERNMENT – The Cameroons are already signing up members to the Conservative Party in order to make sure someone like Nicky Morgan, Stephen Crabb, or Theresa May is the next Prime Minister. This is NOT a Brexit government. In my opinion the only person that can be trusted inside the Conservative Party at this stage is Dr. Liam Fox. He has proved he can and will work with UKIP and Farage and that's what is important. WE CANNOT TRUST BORIS/CARSWELL/HANNAN on this topic. They are already refusing to tackle migration if they get in. Talks, as I warned BEFORE the referendum, now include the phrase "Associate EU membership". This is NOT what we voted for. My question to you is: would you be willing to join the Conservative Party in order to swing a leadership election in Fox's favour? If so, you should do it now. We only have a small window.

2) CUTTING FARAGE OUT – We cannot allow this to happen. I know Carswell is gathering his team in Westminster tomorrow to try and force Nigel out of UKIP leadership. Carswell will likely take a cabinet position in a BORIS government. For the reasons above, this cannot happen. I'm told that Paul Nuttall, Neil Hamilton, and Suzanne Evans are now on Team Carswell.

3) A GENERAL ELECTION – This is becoming more of a likelihood for around November and we have to be ready for it.

4) SECOND REFERENDUMS/PETITIONS – I think more or less people realise that petition is a fraud. Yes, the petitions committee will debate it.

5) THIS GOVT MUST BE DISMISSED – I know it is a big shout, but I think Her Majesty must intervene and dismiss the current government. Look at what Phillip Hammond said this morning about Gibraltar. Effectively, "come and take it, we don't care". These people are NOT defenders of Britain. They are defenders of their corporate mates. And now they're out of sorts with them and they're lashing out against the public and against Britain. Write to Buckingham Palace. This is what the Queen exists for. We are approaching major constitutional crisis.

And Beskar I dont think the Guardian can be trusted anymore, its reporters were found out for lying and for goodness sakes its a front for George Soros plus they lied about the Nigel Farage NHS thing, it wasnt Nigel that promised that it was vote leave nigel was part of Grassroots out.

[Fragony]

:laugh4:
You really seem to live in your own world.
Why else would make you think that I had savings of more than 100k € or thereabouts?
Would it really hurt me to lose some if I did? Could I not afford food anymore if my 200k € in savings got cut by 10%? Would I lose my home? My car? My computer? My yacht? Maybe my private jet and helicopter?

People who save cash for retirement obviously put it under their pillow where the gubmint ain't get it or give it to a banker so he can invest and then lose it in the next financial crisis. Maybe a Nexit and Dexit will ruin your retiremnt funds right away, but then you can start saving again in the knowledge that at least there won't be any foreigners paying taxes into your retirement fund when you get old.

I am not getting anything anyway so all my money is in art and antiques. But yes the EU is going to steal your pensions. They even sneaked in having to be able to a single(lol) oppertunity to grab a part of private money in case of a crisis. You must be reading and watching quality-media if that is new to you

In our case it's only 140.000.000..000 euro to fuel the engine.

Nexit will be next we are soooooo fed up

[Pannonian]

I'm sorry are we in WW3 now? Someone should tell Europe, I'm sure they'd like to know their leaders are supposed to be turning thier back on us, and that the're behind on throwing our people in thier lands out of their homes.

Voting remain would have meant the status quo.

[Greyblades]

Voting remain meant relying on cameron's promise of specal treatment, which he hadnt guarenteed by the time of the vote, and likely wouldnt have gotten if remain had won in significant numbers.

[Pannonian]

Voting remain meant relying on cameron's promise of specal treatment, which he hadnt guarenteed by the time of the vote, and likely wouldnt have gotten if remain had won in significant numbers.

There was an announcement shortly after the result that the agreement made in February was now voided, and will not exist in the light of Britain's new status. That would strongly suggest that the agreement did indeed exist, as something that did not exist could not be voided. The British commissioner also resigned as the EU's finance minister after the referendum result, saying that he had campaigned against the EEC in the past and was a Eurosceptic, but on balance, thought that Britain's membership of the EU was beneficial to our economy and our status in the world.

[Beskar]

Nigel Farage is not part of the official campaign, and he is not an MP. There is no reason for him to be included. Sorry Lizardo, but it is a bad call for him to be included.

[Lizardo]

Nigel Farage is not part of the official campaign, and he is not an MP. There is no reason for him to be included. Sorry Lizardo, but it is a bad call for him to be included.

But neither is Daniel Hannan he is a MEP just like Farage and Douglas Carswell was a tory but defected to UKIP because he knew UKIP would win his seat so now he basically cut off ties with UKIP and is not UKIP but in name, yet both of them were included. The conservative goverment denied his request for Official governement funding. Official or not he was a major influencer in the Debates.

[Greyblades]

There was an announcement shortly after the result that the agreement made in February was now voided, and will not exist in the light of Britain's new status. That would strongly suggest that the agreement did indeed exist, as something that did not exist could not be voided. Existed as an agreement, but was it finalized? Enacted?

Cameron got a promise, but he didnt get it done before the vote and until it was enacted it could be revoked, and when placed against a beligerent Juncker and a untrustworthy EU it was impossible for cameron to guarentee it would be respected after a solid Bremain vote reinforced the EU's confidence.


The British commissioner also resigned as the EU's finance minister after the referendum result, saying that he had campaigned against the EEC in the past and was a Eurosceptic, but on balance, thought that Britain's membership of the EU was beneficial to our economy and our status in the world.

Principle says it doesnt matter if you are comfortable and of high status if you cannot decide your own direction, and pragmatism says economic health and status did not help the working poor. The EU was great for those already prosperous but it hurt those at the bottom rung, it hampered our ability to change their state for the better and facilitated those who wished to distract from the issue.

[Pannonian]

Existed as an agreement, but was it finalized? Enacted?

Cameron got a promise, but he didnt get it done before the vote and until it was enacted it could be revoked, and when placed against a beligerent Juncker and a untrustworthy EU it was impossible for cameron to guarentee it would be respected after a solid Bremain vote reinforced the EU's confidence.

Principle says it doesnt matter if you are comfortable and of high status if you cannot decide your own direction, and pragmatism says economic health and status did not help the working poor. The EU was great for those already prosperous but it hurt those at the bottom rung, it hampered our ability to change their state for the better and facilitated those who wished to distract from the issue.

Good point. One needs to be able to determine one's own direction, and the EU has not been good for those at the bottom rung. So now that the EU has been removed from the equation (notwithstanding the concerns from the Leaving communities about how the shortfall from EU subsidies will be made up), let everyone determine their own direction. London's tax money should no longer be at the disposal of the regions, as London ought to be able to determine the direction of its own taxes. And the regions should be able to determine their own direction, free from the hated EU and free from the hated London.

Can Cameron hang on long enough to give us a third referendum, this time to divorce London and the south east from the rest of the country? That would conclusively solve the problem of London-centrism once and for all.

[InsaneApache]

It does seem to me that there’s been a misunderstanding about what, exactly, a referendum is about. It’s not a general election. It’s not about electing a party with a manifesto. It’s simply getting an answer to a specific question, in this case, whether to stay in or leave the EU. So when disgruntled Remainers complain that there is no blueprint for the future, no grand plan for the way ahead, no specifics about immigration reduction, no answers about getting access to the free trade area, all you can say is, that’s not what it was about, people. There was a coalition of disparate interests behind the Brexit side, from Labour to Ukip, and all they had in common was that they wanted out of the EU. It would then be over to the British government, of whatever type and stamp, to decide how things go from now on.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/course-brexiteers-didnt-plan-future-thats-not-referendum/

[Pannonian]

Fantastic. So there's absolutely nothing to hold the Brexit campaigners to, to see if they're keeping their promises. All Brexiters can hold their hands up and say, this isn't our problem, it's the government's responsibility. Everything that goes wrong isn't the Brexit campaign's fault for making promises they can't keep, but the government's fault because they've not achieved utopia after Brexit handed over the situation to them.

The EU is responsible for all the ills in the world, but Brexit is apparently responsible for nothing. It's all the government's responsibility.

[Greyblades]

No shit brexit is responsible for nothing. It's a single issue alliance at best, not a party. Brexit died as an entity once the last vote was counted.

The referendum has given the government it's marching orders; the MP's promised to follow them and are expected to get moving and if they dont a majority of them will be evicted for those who do, case closed.

[Pannonian]

Boris Johnson says UK will continue to "intensify" cooperation with EU following referendum result (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037)

WTF? You've just headed a successful campaign to leave the EU. Surely, despite the paucity of firm promises from the Brexit camp that we can hold them to, the least you can do is leave the EU. Or is even leaving the EU one promise too many for the Brexit camp?

[Greyblades]

...what, you thought Brexit was about cutting off contact with Europe alltogether? Stopping all cooperation?

The last few months, did you consume any media that wasnt anti brexit?

Also: Boris=Brexit, hah, yeah right.

[Husar]

The referendum has given the government it's marching orders; the MP's promised to follow them and are expected to get moving and if they dont a majority of them will be evicted for those who do, case closed.

If that's so easy, why the need for a referendum?
Could have voted for a Brexit government right away.

You also make Brexit sound like anonymous. :inquisitive:

[Greyblades]

If that's so easy, why the need for a referendum?
Could have voted for a Brexit government right away.

Because public support has never been that big for a pro Brexit government. None of the major parties wanted to touch the issue to avoid rocking the boat and the small ones that did were too untrustworthy, I mean 5 years is a long time to put up with a party who's only main attraction is removed the second they get into power, we lucked out with Cameron’s blunder as it let us get it done well before the kind of unrest accumulated to see a ukip givernment, this could have become a lot more messy.

[I of the Storm]

Personally, I'm rather disappointed by the stance the commission is taking. To be precise, by the fact that they apply the maximum possible pressure on UK's govt to declare article 50 by June 28 (which they won't do). I don't see what's to gain by taking this position. You'd think that a) it's a completely internal matter to the UK if or when they will declare their wish to leave the union and b) that it would be more sensible to wait and see what happens for a few days - or better: weeks. I don't get it.

This is probably the wrong place to ask but I do it anyway: Does this decision have to be taken to parliament or not?

[Pannonian]

Personally, I'm rather disappointed by the stance the commission is taking. To be precise, by the fact that they apply the maximum possible pressure on UK's govt to declare article 50 by June 28 (which they won't do). I don't see what's to gain by taking this position. You'd think that a) it's a completely internal matter to the UK if or when they will declare their wish to leave the union and b) that it would be more sensible to wait and see what happens for a few days - or better: weeks. I don't get it.

This is probably the wrong place to ask but I do it anyway: Does this decision have to be taken to parliament or not?

They're probably uncertain what to apply pressure on. The ruling party's leader has resigned and has made sure that his successor will deal with the mess. The main opposition party is falling apart with every hour. The country itself may not be in the same physical shape in a few months' time. Just what bits of the UK will still be within the UK when the time comes to kick its arse?

[I of the Storm]

Ok, then why apply pressure at all? Let them sort out their mess and watch.

"Pleasant it is, when over a great sea the winds trouble the waters, to gaze from shore upon another's tribulation: not because any man's troubles are a delectable joy, but because to perceive from what ills you are free yourself is pleasant. "

No?

[Greyblades]

There are two wills in action here: brussels bureaucrats and european leaders.

Brussels wants Britain out quickly; damage us by forcing us to rush negotiations and get bad deals with the intent of making leaving seem as unpalatable as possible "pour encorager les autres" in an effort to avoid having to reform the European Union to preserve it.

The European leaders on the other hand are trying to preserve a highly valuable customer for European trade and are willing to let the negotiations take thier time and preserve good will with Britain, as far as they're concerned preserving the EU is secondary to thier national interests. The only exception to this is France's Hollande whose national interest is tied to the EU.

[Gilrandir]

And Beskar I dont think the Guardian can be trusted anymore, its reporters were found out for lying and for goodness sakes its a front for George Soros

Soros came on the right side of it - counting his profits again.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/24/george-soros-stanley-druckenmiller-among-hedge-funds-profiting-in-market-brexit-plunge.html



Can Cameron hang on long enough to give us a third referendum, this time to divorce London and the south east from the rest of the country? That would conclusively solve the problem of London-centrism once and for all.
A new blend: Londependence
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/londependence-petition-calls-for-london-to-join-the-eu-on-its-own-a7101006.html



Brussels wants Britain out quickly; damage us by forcing us to rush negotiations and get bad deals with the intent of making leaving seem as unpalatable as possible "pour encorager les autres" in an effort to avoid having to reform the European Union to preserve it.

I like it! First they get a divorce decision, and then they hope to live in the same house for an idefinite time, get a share in the spouse's salary (until they get their finances in order) and have sex with him (until some time later). Now I know what siff upper lip is.

[Pannonian]

Consequences of Brexit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/the-eu-will-treat-britain-like-greece/)


Leaders have made clear, before and after the vote, that Britain is not getting access to the single market.

“Out is out,” said Wolfgang Schaeuble, the German finance minister, some weeks ago.

“There will certainly be no cherry picking,” confirmed Mr Juncker, saying it will be a "clean" divorce.

More likely is a Canadian-style trade deal, that will set tariffs on imports and exports. That may be fine for German manufacturers. But Britain’s service economy will be cut up like an old car. British graduates are about to learn what it's like to use an Australian-style points system.

Article 50 is designed so that it leaves any state that activates it is a supplicant.

The remaining EU states will negotiate between themselves and deal with the UK as one, just as they would for Albania or Turkey.

If a deal covering trade arrangements isn’t struck once the two-year period expires, Britain is simply released from the EU treaties and left on crippling WTO terms - something the Treasury terms a "severe shock scenario" and which it envisages would likely result in a cut in GDP of six per cent and increase unemployment by 800,000, not including the risks presented by emergency spending cuts, or the "tipping points" presented by the crystallisation of financial stability risks.

It means the government will effectively be forced to take any fait accompli presented at the last minute, or face ruin.

Even then, any further trade deal will require ratification by EU parliaments, meaning Belgian MPs, amongst others, can veto it.

[AntiDamascus]

You just have to throw your hands up at this stuff sometimes. This is stuff I've seen all over different sites. It's the same routine.

Nothing but positives for leaving. Everything will be awesome. Those EU guys suck and they need us.
Ok yea we had to lie about stuff but it's because the other side is mean and lying so the only way to get people to our better ideas is to lie about them.
We don't actually have to do anything. That's the job of the people we don't like. All that matters to us is we're leaving and don't have to deal with those guys in the EU anymore.
Why would the EU be mean to us? Look at this, we want all the upsides and none of the downsides and maybe in process kill their group and instead of lavishing us in sweet deals they want us out?

It's everyone's problem but the people who want to leave. It's the fault of the Remain people that stuff isn't going great. Even though UK leaving EU could very well cripple it, they should be super nice to UK and give them sweet deals even though they've been badmouthing them constantly. I've rarely seen a group so caught up in "it's not our fault" about the one thing that is almost entirely their fault.

[Pannonian]

You just have to throw your hands up at this stuff sometimes. This is stuff I've seen all over different sites. It's the same routine.

Nothing but positives for leaving. Everything will be awesome. Those EU guys suck and they need us.
Ok yea we had to lie about stuff but it's because the other side is mean and lying so the only way to get people to our better ideas is to lie about them.
We don't actually have to do anything. That's the job of the people we don't like. All that matters to us is we're leaving and don't have to deal with those guys in the EU anymore.
Why would the EU be mean to us? Look at this, we want all the upsides and none of the downsides and maybe in process kill their group and instead of lavishing us in sweet deals they want us out?

It's everyone's problem but the people who want to leave. It's the fault of the Remain people that stuff isn't going great. Even though UK leaving EU could very well cripple it, they should be super nice to UK and give them sweet deals even though they've been badmouthing them constantly. I've rarely seen a group so caught up in "it's not our fault" about the one thing that is almost entirely their fault.

They want all their desires to be fulfilled but it's never their responsibility and they expect their living standards to be maintained by the government. Ironically, many of them simultaneously moan at leftists for the culture of entitlement.

[Sarmatian]

Even then, any further trade deal will require ratification by EU parliaments, meaning Belgian MPs, amongst others, can veto it.

I'm having a smile on my face thinking how cool it would be if some Bulgarian MPs block UK trade deals with EU.

It will take some time for Brits to realize just how bad they **cked up.

[Pannonian]

I'm having a smile on my face thinking how cool it would be if some Bulgarian MPs block UK trade deals with EU.

It will take some time for Brits to realize just how bad they **cked up.

Londoners and Scots already know it.

Also, on Friday, the value of the pound dropped enough so that. within 24 hours of the referendum result, the UK economy dropped from the 5th to the 6th biggest in the world, overtaken by France.

[HopAlongBunny]

So far, isn't this just a tempest in a teapot?
The gov't of Britain has a mandate from its people to leave the EU; there is no compulsion to actually do so
Invoking Article 50 is a voluntary act; it is a button they never have to push.

[Greyblades]

You just have to throw your hands up at this stuff sometimes. This is stuff I've seen all over different sites. It's the same routine.

Nothing but positives for leaving. Everything will be awesome. Those EU guys suck and they need us.
Ok yea we had to lie about stuff but it's because the other side is mean and lying so the only way to get people to our better ideas is to lie about them.
We don't actually have to do anything. That's the job of the people we don't like. All that matters to us is we're leaving and don't have to deal with those guys in the EU anymore.
Why would the EU be mean to us? Look at this, we want all the upsides and none of the downsides and maybe in process kill their group and instead of lavishing us in sweet deals they want us out?

It's everyone's problem but the people who want to leave. It's the fault of the Remain people that stuff isn't going great. Even though UK leaving EU could very well cripple it, they should be super nice to UK and give them sweet deals even though they've been badmouthing them constantly. I've rarely seen a group so caught up in "it's not our fault" about the one thing that is almost entirely their fault.
...no we're saying it's not our job to tell the people who call themselves our leaders how to do thier jobs. We know what we want done it's the politicians jib to fivure out how to do it, If johnson and Gove had no plan on what to do next when they jumped the bandwagon that was thier stupidity and if they cannot come up with something we will find someone who can, UKIP was fipled with such people and if the current tories or labour cant do it then they will have to step down.

[Husar]

Personally, I'm rather disappointed by the stance the commission is taking. To be precise, by the fact that they apply the maximum possible pressure on UK's govt to declare article 50 by June 28 (which they won't do). I don't see what's to gain by taking this position. You'd think that a) it's a completely internal matter to the UK if or when they will declare their wish to leave the union and b) that it would be more sensible to wait and see what happens for a few days - or better: weeks. I don't get it.

This is probably the wrong place to ask but I do it anyway: Does this decision have to be taken to parliament or not?

The sooner we can rename it to Merkelreich, the better we will all be off. :clown:

[AntiDamascus]

...no we're saying it's not our job to tell the people who call themselves our leaders how to do thier jobs. We know what we want done it's the politicians jib to fivure out how to do it, If johnson and Gove had no plan on what to do next when they jumped the bandwagon that was thier stupidity and if they cannot come up with something we will find someone who can, UKIP was fipled with such people and if the current tories or labour cant do it then they will have to step down.

These are vague plans in search of a leader to get them done. I'm reminded of like on tv or movies little rich kids yelling at butlers that they want a pony and if they don't get one their daddy will get a butler who does. And those kids are viewed, quite rightly, as spoiled brats.
If it was as easy as it seems, we'd all just vote in guys to solve our problems. Billions and billions in money, dozens of countries. Treaties and status and upset leaders concerned with their own countries issues. "We voted for it, get it done"

It's almost comical. "We vote for all the awesome stuff and none of the bad stuff. Done. That was easy. Don't know why anyone didn't do that before. We're smart."

[AntiDamascus]

I don't see what's to gain by taking this position. You'd think that a) it's a completely internal matter to the UK if or when they will declare their wish to leave the union and b) that it would be more sensible to wait and see what happens for a few days - or better: weeks. I don't get it.


Uh no, no it isn't. You can tell it's not an internal matter when it's.... you know, a union. Breaking a grouping is almost by definition not internal. I'm not sure why it's a shock to you that the people you're leaving maybe kinda sorta don't want to give you a nice way out, since you're hurting them and possibly killing the group in the long run.

[Pannonian]

Uh no, no it isn't. You can tell it's not an internal matter when it's.... you know, a union. Breaking a grouping is almost by definition not internal. I'm not sure why it's a shock to you that the people you're leaving maybe kinda sorta don't want to give you a nice way out, since you're hurting them and possibly killing the group in the long run.

I bet Frag's happy. After egging Brits on to do this, he gets to see how a Nexit would play out, but he doesn't have to pay the price of seeing how it does. Unlike London, which emphatically did not vote Leave. Bad luck London though, as the regioners tell us to suck it up and pay them what the EU will no longer be giving them, and you can't dodge this subsidy because you're physically joined to us so ner.

If there's an independence referendum for the south east, or anything amounting to the same, I would vote for it, to get away from the regions. London is culturally closer to the continent than to Cornwall, Wales and their like. I've been to the continent multiple times. I've never been to Cornwall or Wales, and it wouldn't hurt me if I never go there in my lifetime.

[InsaneApache]

On independence for London, just a couple of thoughts.

Where will you grow your food.

How will you generate enough electricity for the city.

It'd be like Leningrad.

[Pannonian]

On independence for London, just a couple of thoughts.

Where will you grow your food.

How will you generate enough electricity for the city.

It'd be like Leningrad.

London plus neighbouring counties is about as self-sustaining as London plus the rest of England. The south east doesn't need the rest of England.

[InsaneApache]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlnWv2xrPdo

It's chuffing hilarious watching the establishment disintegrate.


London plus neighbouring counties is about as self-sustaining as London plus the rest of England. The south east doesn't need the rest of England.

Go for it then.

.

[Husar]

Where will you grow your food.

How will you generate enough electricity for the city.

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/question-mark.html

They could also get these things from trade, e.g. by rejoining the EU or leaving the UK before the (rest-)UK leaves the EU.
It just goes to show that the nation state is the best thing ever that consists only of like-minded people, so ideally no more than 5... ~;)

[InsaneApache]

They'd have to negotiate a trade deal with the UK.

Unless they all die of starvation first.

[AntiDamascus]

On independence for London, just a couple of thoughts.

Where will you grow your food.

How will you generate enough electricity for the city.

It'd be like Leningrad.

I dunno, I would think they need London more than London needs them. It'll be great really.

Or are we implying that being part of a greater whole, even if it's not perfect and sometimes bothersome, is better than breaking away? Cause that just sounds silly. :D

[Pannonian]

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/question-mark.html

They could also get these things from trade, e.g. by rejoining the EU or leaving the UK before the (rest-)UK leaves the EU.
It just goes to show that the nation state is the best thing ever that consists only of like-minded people, so ideally no more than 5... ~;)

The south east contains large amounts of farmland and other faculties. London by itself doesn't grow much food (very little within the boroughs). Add the neighbouring counties, and there's practically as much civil infrastructure as if you include the rest of England. Break off the south east as London the civil centre plus hinterland, and the rest of England adds very little to London's needs. Perhaps everything east of Oxfordshire plus everything south of Norfolk inclusive, or basically the old Angle and Saxon kingdoms.

[Beskar]

As I said earlier, economically, it might be better for London to separate from the Rest of the UK. London acts like a magnet, drawing all the economic activity towards it, and there is no counterbalance in the UK unlike other countries. Whitehall policies are also generally focused on the south and south-west, and these are enacted at the expense of the rest of the UK.

As such, if London leaves, it will no longer act like a magnet, thus it would give rise to growth and prosperity to other cities such as Manchester, Edinburgh, etc. Or we could have proper regional governments to help foster this.

Found an old article on the subject too...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21934564

[Pannonian]

As I said earlier, economically, it might be better for London to separate from the Rest of the UK. London acts like a magnet, drawing all the economic activity towards it, and there is no counterbalance in the UK unlike other countries.

As such, if London leaves, it will no longer act like a magnet, thus it would give rise to growth and prosperity to other cities such as Manchester, Edinburgh, etc.


Perhaps London, Manchester, Edinburgh and other likeminded cities can band together in a European league, away from the Europhobes elsewhere.

[InsaneApache]

As I said earlier, economically, it might be better for London to separate from the Rest of the UK. London acts like a magnet, drawing all the economic activity towards it, and there is no counterbalance in the UK unlike other countries. Whitehall policies are also generally focused on the south and south-west, and these are enacted at the expense of the rest of the UK.

As such, if London leaves, it will no longer act like a magnet, thus it would give rise to growth and prosperity to other cities such as Manchester, Edinburgh, etc. Or we could have proper regional governments to help foster this.

Found an old article on the subject too...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21934564

What do you plan to do to all the Londoners who voted to leave?

I know, you could have a good old socialist purge and 're-educate' them. In camps of course. After all, it's for their own good.

You know it makes sense. :goofy:

[I of the Storm]

Uh no, no it isn't. You can tell it's not an internal matter when it's.... you know, a union. Breaking a grouping is almost by definition not internal. I'm not sure why it's a shock to you that the people you're leaving maybe kinda sorta don't want to give you a nice way out, since you're hurting them and possibly killing the group in the long run.

That's not wrong but not correct either. UK's not quite there yet, as art. 50 hasn't been invoked yet. Only when there's an official declaration stating the wish to leave the EU by UK's govt., it becomes a multilateral issue.
Until then, it's strictly internal matter. Formally, we're dealing with a non-binding referendum. In theory the govt. could simply not give a fuck about it (disregarding the political consequences of such an action for the sake of argument).

I'm not leaving anyone btw. Not a UK citizen. I just think this matter should be handled more even-handedly.

[AntiDamascus]

That's not wrong but not correct either. UK's not quite there yet, as art. 50 hasn't been invoked yet. Only when there's an official declaration stating the wish to leave the EU by UK's govt., it becomes a multilateral issue.
Until then, it's strictly internal matter. Formally, we're dealing with a non-binding referendum. In theory the govt. could simply not give a fuck about it (disregarding the political consequences of such an action for the sake of argument).

I'm not leaving anyone btw. Not a UK citizen. I just think this matter should be handled more even-handedly.

You can't honestly expect the nations in the EU to sit on their hands and wait for the special words from the UK about it. Stuff happens after an election in the US but before swearing in because they don't wait until that moment to do stuff. It would be a mess. These nations aren't going to sit there and wait. Even if they change their mind (which I doubt unless it goes way way worse), the UK is going to deal with issues coming back in. You can't announce you're leaving, change your mind and then assume everything will be fine again.

You can't quit your job but not give an exact end date and then get upset when they start replacing you or cutting your access.

[I of the Storm]

You can't honestly expect the nations in the EU to sit on their hands and wait for the special words from the UK about it. Stuff happens after an election in the US but before swearing in because they don't wait until that moment to do stuff. It would be a mess. These nations aren't going to sit there and wait. Even if they change their mind (which I doubt unless it goes way way worse), the UK is going to deal with issues coming back in. You can't announce you're leaving, change your mind and then assume everything will be fine again.

You can't quit your job but not give an exact end date and then get upset when they start replacing you or cutting your access.

I'm quite sure that's not the point I made. I don't expect the EU to do nothing. I do expect them to prepare for all the consequences the brexit may bring. And there are several faits accomplis already. The burned money, UK universities barred from upcoming calls in Horizon2020 etc...
That's not what I was talking about.
What I object to is the "hurry up! Not gone yet!?" rhetoric of some (of the more objectionable) officials in the EU. It hasn't even been a week yet, ffs! If the UK doesn't get it's shit sorted by October, it's still early enough to get upset with them.

But preferring calm and common sense is apparently not en vogue these days anywhere.

[AntiDamascus]

I guess I don't see the issue then. They voted to leave. It's time to start moving. They've just told the EU they don't want to be a part of their group but oh by the way they still want all the trade deals and such. I don't think it's too off for those left behind, and questioning their own fate to say "fine, go"

Is there a strict timetable that says they can't leave yet or are they just taking their time? "We don't like you, we're leaving.... sometime in like October starting it maybe." I guess I just get why some people aren't keen on letting the UK decide when they want to ruin everyone's day. Looking at the campaigns on both sides, calm and common sense left a while ago. If the UK is going to screw these countries, I don't see why they should simply grin and take it out of some weird desire for everyone to appear calm.

[Husar]

What do you plan to do to all the Londoners who voted to leave?

I know, you could have a good old socialist purge and 're-educate' them. In camps of course. After all, it's for their own good.

You know it makes sense. :goofy:

What will you do to the 48% who voted Remain?

I know, you could have some good old nationalist concentration camps or scare them into submission. After all, it's for the good of the nation.

You know it makes perfect sense. :goofy:

[johnhughthom]

No way that video is real

Edit: from a few pages back....

[Greyblades]

Not exactly narrowing it down there.


These are vague plans in search of a leader to get them done. I'm reminded of like on tv or movies little rich kids yelling at butlers that they want a pony and if they don't get one their daddy will get a butler who does. And those kids are viewed, quite rightly, as spoiled brats.
If it was as easy as it seems, we'd all just vote in guys to solve our problems. Billions and billions in money, dozens of countries. Treaties and status and upset leaders concerned with their own countries issues. "We voted for it, get it done"
You're new to this whole representative democracy thing arent you?

You do know that a vote on a single issue is an anomaly, yes? See we usually vote in these people called MPs. that's members of parliament, and we vote them in, from of a group of usually 6, based on which of them can persuade us that thier plan is the best. We send them off to a parliament of these MPs from around the country and expect them to follow those plans when this parliament votes on the issues of governance. This is usually done with the understanding that if they dont follow through on thier promise they get voted out.

We voted on this singular issue and we expect them to follow that vote but I am afraid we still expect them to do thier job without handholding, same as always.

I assume you come from one of the countries without democracies, or that you have never voted, otherwise It would be my sad duty to inform you that your categorization of spoiled brat includes yourself.


It's almost comical. "We vote for all the awesome stuff and none of the bad stuff. Done. That was easy. Don't know why anyone didn't do that before. We're smart."

I wonder, if they had voted the other way and the EU collapsed would you be saying the same thing?

[HopAlongBunny]

The UK hasn't told the EU anything (as yet)
A non-binding referendum in a member state obliges the EU in no way
The UK might try to use the weak results as leverage...that might not turn out well.

A little something on the politics of fear:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/brexit-and-trump-when-fear-triumphs-over-evidence/

[Pannonian]

The UK's credit rating is plummeting. Which means we can't borrow on the scale that we've been doing before. Which means spending cuts or higher taxes. Wasn't one of the gripes, listed on the Brexit campaign bus, that we were giving more to the EU than we were getting back, to the tune of 8bn or so? How much is the tanking economy going to cost us this year and following years?

Brexit: playing Russian roulette with a wakizashi.

[Greyblades]

Hm, I will admit that for a moment I had been thinking it may not actually cost us much, the dead cat bounce is quite an issue, but that foolishness was after I had voted, I made my decision with the full knowledge of the consequences.

Pity the idiots who voted based on lies, though I think fewer voted leave than stay based on them, and laugh at the idiot politicians that jumped on the bandwagon while thinking leave wouldnt actually win.

Whether parliament made the promise with smart or foolish intent I still expect it to keep it's word and know there will be hell to pay if it does not.

The media can keep panicking as much as it wants and keep blaming thier loss on the politics of fear.

My feet are not near cold.


A little something on the politics of fear:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/brexit-and-trump-when-fear-triumphs-over-evidence/

We didnt ignore the experts, we accepted their prediction that this will hurt and we considered it worth it in the end.

The "experts" that we actually ignored were the ones that told us that this was an irrecoverable loss, that the nation will collapse for this.

Bullshit, nations have recovered from much worse, we recovered from much worse 80 years ago, we can do it again.

Our predicted ruin is as much bullshit as the idea that this would have brought about immediate prosperity and the reclaiming of past glories.

[InsaneApache]

What will you do to the 48% who voted Remain?

I know, you could have some good old nationalist concentration camps or scare them into submission. After all, it's for the good of the nation.

You know it makes perfect sense. :goofy:

Except we accept the democratic result.

Even if we had lost.

You lot are acting like petulant teenagers who just been told that they can't stay out until 11 am on a school day.

Cue much stomping of feet and slamming of doors.

Just grow up and accept the democratic will of the people.


Is there a strict timetable that says they can't leave yet or are they just taking their time? "We don't like you, we're leaving.... sometime in like October starting it maybe." I guess I just get why some people aren't keen on letting the UK decide when they want to ruin everyone's day. Looking at the campaigns on both sides, calm and common sense left a while ago. If the UK is going to screw these countries, I don't see why they should simply grin and take it out of some weird desire for everyone to appear calm.

The clock starts ticking when they invoke article 50.


The UK's credit rating is plummeting. Which means we can't borrow on the scale that we've been doing before.

That's a bad thing? Borrowing money you struggle to pay back?

Alice in Wonderland socialism.

[Pannonian]

Hm, I will admit that for a moment I had been thinking it may not actually cost us much, the dead cat bounce is quite an issue, but that foolishness was after I had voted, I made my decision with the full knowledge of the consequences.

Pity the idiots who voted based on lies, though I think fewer voted leave than stay based on them, and laugh at the idiot politicians that jumped on the bandwagon while thinking leave wouldnt actually win.

Whether parliament made the promise with smart or foolish intent I still expect it to keep it's word and know there will be hell to pay if it does not.

The media can keep panicking as much as it wants and keep blaming thier loss on the politics of fear.

My feet are not near cold.

We didnt ignore the experts, we accepted their prediction that this will hurt and we considered it worth it in the end.

The "experts" that we actually ignored were the ones that told us that this was an irrecoverable loss, that the nation will collapse for this.

Bullshit, nations have recovered from much worse, we recovered from much worse 80 years ago, we can do it again.

Our predicted ruin is as much bullshit as the idea that this would have brought about immediate prosperity and the reclaiming of past glories.

Have you noticed that Scotland has been exploring the option of remaining as an independent entity, separate from the rUK? And that Spain has clarified that there will be no objections (despite fears over Catalonia), and other European countries have expressed support? Did you take the break up of the UK into consideration when you weighed the pros and cons?

[Greyblades]

Yes.

It is the only true regret I have. I hope, with Sturgeon outright calling for democracy to be ignored, with all our history together, with the uncertainty of the EU, that the scots will stay, but if they go so be it, I will not begrudge them for it as I share their anger at westminster. Scotland would cost us money to maintain, but it would be worth it for the company in trying times, I just have to accept they may not share the affection.

I will also need some citations on that spain thing.

[Pannonian]

Yes.

It is the only true regret I have. I hope, with Sturgeon outright calling for democracy to be ignored, with all our history together, with the uncertainty of the EU, that the scots will stay, but if they go so be it, I will not begrudge them for it as I share their anger at westminster. Scotland would cost us money to maintain, but it would be worth it for the company in trying times, I just have to accept they may not share the affection.

I will also need some citations on that spain thing.

Spain is unlikely to veto an independent Scotland’s EU membership (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/09/15/spain-is-unlikely-to-veto-an-independent-scotlands-eu-membership/)


Spain’s veto seems unlikely. José Manuel García-Margallo, Spain’s foreign minister, declined to state that Spain would veto Scottish accession when invited to do so. Instead, the Spanish Government has taken the line that the cases of Catalonia and Scotland are fundamentally different because the UK’s constitutional setting permits referendums on secession while the current Spanish constitution enshrines the indivisibility of the Spanish state and establishes that national sovereignty belongs to all Spaniards.

The Spanish government is trying to make a virtue out of necessity. They would find it politically difficult to oppose an independent Scotland’s membership. As Stephen Tierney and Katie Boyle observe, ‘if the UK Government is prepared to recognise an independent Scotland and work towards its membership of the EU with the cooperation of EU institutions and the overwhelming majority of the other Member States, then it is simply unforeseeable that this would be vetoed by an individual Member State’.

So Scotland, once independent, can apply and Spain will not veto an independent entity. If Scotland wants membership of the EU, and it overwhelmingly does, independence is the way to go.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The UK's credit rating is plummeting. Which means we can't borrow on the scale that we've been doing before. Which means spending cuts or higher taxes. Wasn't one of the gripes, listed on the Brexit campaign bus, that we were giving more to the EU than we were getting back, to the tune of 8bn or so? How much is the tanking economy going to cost us this year and following years?

Brexit: playing Russian roulette with a wakizashi.

The UK's Credit rating has been cut, but the turmoil has also lowered the interest rates on new UK Bonds.

So, oddly, the cost of borrowing has gone down.

See - this is what happens when you read the headline and not the article.

[Greyblades]

So Scotland, once independent, can apply and Spain will not veto an independent entity. If Scotland wants membership of the EU, and it overwhelmingly does, independence is the way to go.

That is a politician's "maybe" and a pair of scottish professor's "surely"'s, one leaving his options open the other being rather optimistic, both seem careful not to say a definite "no they wont block".

I do not have faith in this blog of yours to come to such a conclusion, I dont think scotland should base it's options on it either.

[drone]

So Scotland, once independent, can apply and Spain will not veto an independent entity. If Scotland wants membership of the EU, and it overwhelmingly does, independence is the way to go.

In this scenario, who pays to rebuild Hadrian's Wall? All that unprotected border, ripe for illegal immigration and smuggling. :yes:

[Kralizec]

That is a politician's "maybe" and a pair of scottish professor's "surely"'s, one leaving his options open the other being rather optimistic, both seem careful not to say a definite "no they wont block".

I do not have faith in this blog of yours to come to such a conclusion, I dont think scotland should base it's options on it either.

Spain's prime minister has said during Scotland's referendum that separation from the UK would mean Scotland would find itself outside the EU, and that it would have to apply for its own membership. He also said that allthough he dissaproves of seperatism in general he would not veto Scotland's application, since Scotland's independence would be legal and legitimate according to the UK's own laws (unlike Catalonia's attempts).

I clearly recall this and it would be easy to find a number of articles about his exact words, but I'd rather have you go through the trouble yourself. It's not as if you're ever going to be convinced anyway. From this thread and others it's abundantly clear that you'll allways find some excuse to dismiss facts that don't agree with you.

[Greyblades]

Rather a long winded way of saying you're too lazy.

Spanish Prime Minister gives EU warning to Scots. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11101758/Spanish-Prime-Minister-gives-EU-warning-to-Scots.html)

Mariano Rajoy has said an independent Scotland would have to apply from scratch for EU membership and the application process could take eight years.

Mariano Rajoy told the Spanish Parliament a yes vote for Scottish independence would be a “torpedo to the vulnerabilities of the European Union”.

Mr Rajoy added that the EU was not created “to break up states, but to integrate them” but Mr Salmond insisted the Spanish would not block a Scottish application.

The Spanish Prime Minister spoke out after the Telegraph disclosed that Mr Salmond has been accused of deliberately misleading Scots about an independent Scotland’s EU status.

The First Minister told the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show at the weekend that he had spoken to the Spanish, French, Italians and Belgians about his assertion that a separate Scotland would start life in the EU.

Mr Salmond has claimed claim that Scotland would not need to apply from scratch and would instead get a fast-track entry in the 18 months between a Yes vote and actual separation in March 2016.

But Mr Salmond told Radio Four’s Today programme: “The Spanish government's position is unchanged. They have said so many times that if there is a consenting democratic process then Spain, as they put it, would have nothing to say about it."

So no block, maybe, politicians being untrustworthy buggers at the best of times and salmond being an extremely liberal man when it comes to promises he cannot ensure. What is certain they sure as hell wont be getting in quick and English money will be a lot more forthcoming.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://youtu.be/5I9GKGkfK8U



I feel like this is how some in the Leave camp feel - all forshadowing included.

[Greyblades]

The means are there, the will less so, but it will come.

Parliament is in a panic and are trying to weasel thier way out of the referendum, turning on eachother in a flurry of betrayal and blame. But I know it cannot last, for there is near guarenteed 10+ million votes up for grabs for the men who stand up and say "I will try to make this work" and a position as one of the top Prime Ministers in history for the man who does the deed. If the current crop of politicians wont discard thier old dreams of european integration and take the opportunity in front of them they will be swept out by those who will at the next elections.

Maybe I am being optimistic, but I believe it will happen because all signs point to the people being goddamn sick to death of the kick-the-can politics of the last two decades.

If only I twenty years older ten times braver and a thousand times wiser.