View Full Version : Mass Shooting in Orlando become's USA's worst.
Seamus Fermanagh
06-12-2016, 16:20
Lone Shooter, Crowded Club. Hostages after shooting, SWAT attack at dawn. 50 dead including shooter, 53 more in hospital, several with prognosis uncertain.
Link (http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/)
I am very sad right now. This happened only a 40 minute drive across town from me. My wife had co-workers who had stayed home last night, but do frequent the club from time to time.
Particulars unconfirmed in many cases, at present, awaiting notification of families.
:sad:
Pannonian
06-12-2016, 16:54
Another second gen Muslim. A homophobe according to his dad.
Hooahguy
06-12-2016, 17:02
I kinda have the feeling this means that Trump will win in November.
I kinda have the feeling this means that Trump will win in November.
I doubt it will significantly effect anything. Everyone has ideological blinders on, anything we see is immediately filtered.
People who want to ban muslims will see another reason, people who want to ban guns will see another reason. These people already know where both candidates stand and have made up their minds.
In the end the election will come down to the economy like it does for every other election.
Another second gen Muslim. A homophobe according to his dad.
I wonder why his dad didn't participate in the shooting, since he is also muslim. I've been told by top minds that the issue is this simple.
I kinda have the feeling this means that Trump will win in November.
Because more guns and segregation is the only solution... :/
Very sad, apparently the motive was purely homophobic, but that is a crazy reaction regardless of why he felt that way... :no:
Pannonian
06-12-2016, 17:16
I doubt it will significantly effect anything. Everyone has ideological blinders on, anything we see is immediately filtered.
People who want to ban muslims will see another reason, people who want to ban guns will see another reason. These people already know where both candidates stand and have made up their minds.
In the end the election will come down to the economy like it does for every other election.
I wonder why his dad didn't participate in the shooting, since he is also muslim. I've been told by top minds that the issue is this simple.
A Pakistani cricket forum that I read noted, after this latest incident, that Muslims born in the west tend to have more extreme views than those who were born in Muslim countries but who have moved to the west. They particularly enjoyed one example where a western born Muslim called for greater dedication to their religion, only to be mocked by resident Pakistanis.
Hooahguy
06-12-2016, 20:16
They are now saying he had pledged allegiance to ISIS. Wonder if the US is going to ramp up the anti-ISIS campaign like France did after the Paris attacks.
They are now saying he had pledged allegiance to ISIS. Wonder if the US is going to ramp up the anti-ISIS campaign like France did after the Paris attacks.
I thought it was a bit extreme for "just homophobic", ISIS is a good one though, how fast they became more "popular" than Al Queda...
Strike For The South
06-12-2016, 23:22
Sad
I thought it was a bit extreme for "just homophobic", ISIS is a good one though, how fast they became more "popular" than Al Queda...
He also called the police up and told them that he was a terrorist who had pledged himself to jihad for ISIS, so he declared his own motivations.
Horrible, my condoleances. That's all I am going to say right now but you probably know what I think.
CrossLOPER
06-13-2016, 01:59
Horrible, my condoleances. That's all I am going to say right now but you probably know what I think.
That this is clearly the action of a deranged young adult who, despite never really heavily participating in religious activity (according to his family), used religious extremism as an excuse to commit mass murder? Yes, Fragony. I agree with you.
InsaneApache
06-13-2016, 02:06
Owen Jones's head just exploded on Sky News tonight.
People are people no matter what their sexuality is.
Owen Jones's head just exploded on Sky News tonight.
People are people no matter what their sexuality is.
Complete trainwreck, that entire "discussion"...
That this is clearly the action of a deranged young adult who, despite never really heavily participating in religious activity (according to his family), used religious extremism as an excuse to commit mass murder? Yes, Fragony. I agree with you.
Naturally there is only one thing that has nothing to do with it. It also had nothing to with it in Paris and Brussels. All deranged young adults. All isolated incidents, naturaly. No such things like sleeping cells. IS claiming the attack, lol rediculous never happened
Reactions of Obama and Clinton are repulsive, this isn't about guns, such vultures
Gilrandir
06-13-2016, 08:48
Wonder if the US is going to ramp up the anti-ISIS campaign like France did after the Paris attacks.
Remind me what France's campaign amounted to.
HopAlongBunny
06-13-2016, 08:54
Very sad
Remind me what France's campaign amounted to.
Isn't any. Police is on high-alert though. Right-wing parties aren't surprised at all that this happened, nobody should. If you think islam belongs here it's islam that you get, to you utmost surprise, yes you as well, they do not like you, It is what it is. It's a hostile ideogie with a limb dick but with all the cruelty to compemsate, how can anyone not get that, ir's gong to be much worse,
Isn't any. Police is on high-alert though. Right-wing parties aren't surprised at all that this happened, nobody should. If you think islam belongs here it's islam that you get, to you utmost surprise, yes you as well, they do not like you, It is what it is. It's a hostile ideogie with a limb dick but with all the cruelty to compemsate, how can anyone not get that, ir's gong to be much worse,
In this case it seems at this early stage to be a young man with mental issues latching on to something which he can hate so as to externalise his problems and then connecting it with something "bigger" than he is in an attempt to make his subsequent actions mean something.
In this case it seems at this early stage to be a young man with mental issues latching on to something which he can hate so as to externalise his problems and then connecting it with something "bigger" than he is in an attempt to make his subsequent actions mean something.
Almost thirty, is that a young man. Maybe, just maybe, it's just what it is. If something does the same tning everywhere it is, can we please consider that it's the exact same thing causing it, or at least muse. Bit of a trach-record the islam, especially compared to hmmmmmmmmmm no nothing really. Older societies had an excuse but the islam exists in a modern age and can't handle not being able to handle the pace. All spite. Must be hard to feel superior when the time proves you wrong.. Let's take ki out on innocents who only hurted your self-esteem
Lets give our guns away and pray away ISIS. Gun control is not going to work mateen had security clearance. G4S didn't want to fire him even though numerous complaints about his fantasising about killing kuffars and killing gays. One employee left as he couldn't take it anymore G4S didn't want to fire him because there might be Muslim backlash and a lawsuit. You can't ban all Muslims from guns that's profiling etc. Etc. Guns and Islam are here to stay in america get used to it. Tool up I.e. obtain a concealed carry or become extinct. Political correctness prevented mateen from being revoked security clearance and being fired and reported to police. Problem isn't guns its Fundamentalist Islam if guns were banned in america he would of used a bomb which he did but failed to explode or he would use a knife or run you over like in Israel.
Just saw Owen Jones go full retard.
Gilrandir
06-13-2016, 14:43
Almost thirty, is that a young man. Maybe, just maybe, it's just what it is. If something does the same tning everywhere it is, can we please consider that it's the exact same thing causing it, or at least muse. Bit of a trach-record the islam, especially compared to hmmmmmmmmmm no nothing really. Older societies had an excuse but the islam exists in a modern age and can't handle not being able to handle the pace. All spite. Must be hard to feel superior when the time proves you wrong.. Let's take ki out on innocents who only hurted your self-esteem
Lets give our guns away and pray away ISIS. Gun control is not going to work mateen had security clearance. G4S didn't want to fire him even though numerous complaints about his fantasising about killing kuffars and killing gays. One employee left as he couldn't take it anymore G4S didn't want to fire him because there might be Muslim backlash and a lawsuit. You can't ban all Muslims from guns that's profiling etc. Etc. Guns and Islam are here to stay in america get used to it. Tool up I.e. obtain a concealed carry or become extinct. Political correctness prevented mateen from being revoked security clearance and being fired and reported to police. Problem isn't guns its Fundamentalist Islam if guns were banned in america he would of used a bomb which he did but failed to explode or he would use a knife or run you over like in Israel.
Just saw Owen Jones go full retard.
Somehow I start to doubt whether English is the language of communication on these boards.
CrossLOPER
06-13-2016, 16:57
Naturally there is only one thing that has nothing to do with it. It also had nothing to with it in Paris and Brussels. All deranged young adults.
Because mass shooters are well known to be mentally stable, functional and productive members of society, much like these people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_Planned_Parenthood_shooting
Well that didn't help. Let's see what the ex-wife of the killer has to say:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36513512
No no no. Let's look at the incidents directly linked to transgender violence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States
Huh. Well, let's see what's been going on in the past week or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Christina_Grimmie
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-frenchman-guns-rpgs-weapons-plot-attack-jews-muslims-euro-2016-france/
This is hard.
Reactions of Obama and Clinton are repulsive, this isn't about guns, such vultures
Well, we know that Trump can give a sensitive, well thought-out response and rally his supporters in this time when the focus should be on the victim's grieving families:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-gets-self-congratulatory-after-orlando-mass-shooting
Fragony, I'm confused. Can you help me out?
Because mass shooters are well known to be mentally stable, functional and productive members of society, much like these people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_Planned_Parenthood_shooting
Well that didn't help. Let's see what the ex-wife of the killer has to say:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36513512
No no no. Let's look at the incidents directly linked to transgender violence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States
Huh. Well, let's see what's been going on in the past week or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Christina_Grimmie
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-frenchman-guns-rpgs-weapons-plot-attack-jews-muslims-euro-2016-france/
This is hard.
Well, we know that Trump can give a sensitive, well thought-out response and rally his supporters in this time when the focus should be on the victim's grieving families:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-gets-self-congratulatory-after-orlando-mass-shooting
Fragony, I'm confused. Can you help me out?
Oh come on, you know that this was a terrorist attack by a muslim extremist. That doesn't cancel out other problems. But islamic-terrorism is a much bigger problem than deranged people. You are being dishonest if you refuse to see difference.
AE Bravo
06-13-2016, 22:33
Oh come on, you know that this was a terrorist attack by a muslim extremist. That doesn't cancel out other problems. But islamic-terrorism is a much bigger problem than deranged people. You are being dishonest if you refuse to see difference.
Yes you'd like that wouldn't you, only problem is that it isn't. Read the letter by the father at Gawker before they take it down.
But islamic-terrorism is a much bigger problem than deranged people.
Are you sure about that?
Pannonian
06-13-2016, 23:58
Are you sure about that?
In a number of western countries that are more used to peace than war, outside war and inside living memory (hence talking about post-WW1), the biggest massacres have been perpetrated by Islamist terrorists. AFAIK they hold the record in the UK, US, France and Spain. In the UK, incidents with smaller body counts led to the restriction of firearms. They were spaced a decade apart, yet they and their signature laws are still remembered. In 2005, the 7/7 attack and another similar attack with the same MO were spaced a few weeks apart. The first killed 50+, while we were lucky the devices in the second attack malfunctioned. There was one in Scotland around the same time as well. And those are the ones that are publicly known and that I can remember offhand. NB. I've discounted the ones with melee weapons, as they don't involve the same kind of sudden mass killing as the other examples.
Yes you'd like that wouldn't you, only problem is that it isn't. Read the letter by the father at Gawker before they take it down.
yeah I really like this, love pointing fingers. 50 innocent dead people don't bother me if it suits my anti-muslim agenda
Just because you would never do such a thing doesn't mean that there is no such a thing as islamic terrorism.
CrossLOPER
06-14-2016, 01:42
there is no such a thing as islamic terrorism.
The point is that pretty much any nutcake can get a gun, go into a public area, and have about ten minutes to absolutely go nuts before the first wave of police arrive. They can proclaim allegiance to Mickey Mouse, the bodies will still be there.
In a number of western countries that are more used to peace than war, outside war and inside living memory (hence talking about post-WW1), the biggest massacres have been perpetrated by Islamist terrorists. AFAIK they hold the record in the UK, US, France and Spain. In the UK, incidents with smaller body counts led to the restriction of firearms. They were spaced a decade apart, yet they and their signature laws are still remembered. In 2005, the 7/7 attack and another similar attack with the same MO were spaced a few weeks apart. The first killed 50+, while we were lucky the devices in the second attack malfunctioned. There was one in Scotland around the same time as well. And those are the ones that are publicly known and that I can remember offhand. NB. I've discounted the ones with melee weapons, as they don't involve the same kind of sudden mass killing as the other examples.
Post statistics.
AE Bravo
06-14-2016, 02:10
yeah I really like this, love pointing fingers. 50 innocent dead people don't bother me if it suits my anti-muslim agenda
Just because you would never do such a thing doesn't mean that there is no such a thing as islamic terrorism.
He's a self-hating bigot who was apparently a closet gay man with a profile in a gay dating app. Yet, he's still an "islamic terrorist" to you because he says so, even though his own father refutes that.
If every troubled shithead that comes from a Muslim family does something, and enables you to attribute the whole thing to your Islam boogeyman fantasy than I can't stop your obsession with strangling Islam rather than finding a proper solution.
Good luck, keep on fighting the good fight!
He's a self-hating bigot who was apparently a closet gay man with a profile in a gay dating app. Yet, he's still an "islamic terrorist" to you because he says so, even though his own father refutes that.
If every troubled shithead that comes from a Muslim family does something, and enables you to attribute the whole thing to your Islam boogeyman fantasy than I can't stop your obsession with strangling Islam rather than finding a proper solution.
Good luck, keep on fighting the good fight!
At least he isn't the only one who's in denial.
Gay sites/bars are a recruiting place for IS by the way, to show your worth.
AE Bravo
06-14-2016, 02:33
Check your closet for IS too.
Pannonian
06-14-2016, 03:28
The point is that pretty much any nutcake can get a gun, go into a public area, and have about ten minutes to absolutely go nuts before the first wave of police arrive. They can proclaim allegiance to Mickey Mouse, the bodies will still be there.
Post statistics.
9/11 was the biggest ever terrorist attack in the US, with a body count of 2000+.
7/7 was the biggest ever terrorist attack in the UK, with 50+ dead.
The Madrid train bombing in 2004 was the biggest ever terrorist attack in Spain with 100+ dead.
I don't know of any comparable size terrorist attack in France, but the 2015 Paris attack produced 100+ dead.
Are those stats wrong? Did I miss any bigger attacks than those listed?
Greyblades
06-14-2016, 03:48
I don't know of any comparable size terrorist attack in France.
Insert robespierre joke here.
Check your closet for IS too.
sigh, beating up a gay is an initiating requirement, that's why they are on gay sites and in gay bars
AE Bravo
06-14-2016, 07:07
sigh, beating up a gay is an initiating requirement, that's why they are on gay sites and in gay bars
You don't think it's a possibility that he was one himself and tried to overcompensate? Maybe he hated himself and IS thoughts were making him feel better about himself. He probably hated the clubgoers for living truthfully unlike him, who's too scared to come out the closet.
You don't think it's a possibility that he was one himself and tried to overcompensate? Maybe he hated himself and IS thoughts were making him feel better about himself. He probably hated the clubgoers for living truthfully unlike him, who's too scared to come out the closet.
If I had a dad like him I would be as well, check his youtube channel. No, it just is what it is. I fully understand that most muslims would never harm anyone, and I am not asking from muslims to reject things like this because that's unfair, but there IS a problem with islam in the west. And everywhere where it is really.
yeah I really like this, love pointing fingers. 50 innocent dead people don't bother me if it suits my anti-muslim agenda
I fully understand that most muslims would never harm anyone, and I am not asking from muslims to reject things like this because that's unfair, but there IS a problem with islam in the west.
Why? What? Trying to confuse me again?
9/11 was the biggest ever terrorist attack in the US, with a body count of 2000+.
7/7 was the biggest ever terrorist attack in the UK, with 50+ dead.
The Madrid train bombing in 2004 was the biggest ever terrorist attack in Spain with 100+ dead.
I don't know of any comparable size terrorist attack in France, but the 2015 Paris attack produced 100+ dead.
Are those stats wrong? Did I miss any bigger attacks than those listed?
You forgot about the black death, the Holocaust, the bombing of London, the firebombing of Dresden and others, the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (ok, Japan isn't the West), the 30 years war and the Spanish flu.
I'd say bacteria and virii are the biggest threat to western countries. If you think negotiating with ISIS is impossible, try to negotiate with them!
And just as a technical question, why does the single largest terrorist seemingly determine what is the biggest/a bigger threat to Western countries? What is the scientific argument to take this as a valid measure?
So what if the biggest terrorist attack killed 100 people in 1 attack in a timespan of 10 years and deranged people killed 200 people in 40 attacks over the same timespan?
And what exactly does deranged mean? Could someone who joins a terrorist organization to cut off heads and be a murdering superhero not be called a deranged man? Does religious association override psychological conditions? Are terrorist organizations the only organizations on earth with perfectly sane members?
And why does the rise of terrorist organizations coincide with the rise of veganism?
First quote was sarcasm Hussie
InsaneApache
06-14-2016, 13:20
Crazy thread. :no:
Pannonian
06-14-2016, 13:41
Why? What? Trying to confuse me again?
You forgot about the black death, the Holocaust, the bombing of London, the firebombing of Dresden and others, the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (ok, Japan isn't the West), the 30 years war and the Spanish flu.
I'd say bacteria and virii are the biggest threat to western countries. If you think negotiating with ISIS is impossible, try to negotiate with them!
And just as a technical question, why does the single largest terrorist seemingly determine what is the biggest/a bigger threat to Western countries? What is the scientific argument to take this as a valid measure?
So what if the biggest terrorist attack killed 100 people in 1 attack in a timespan of 10 years and deranged people killed 200 people in 40 attacks over the same timespan?
And what exactly does deranged mean? Could someone who joins a terrorist organization to cut off heads and be a murdering superhero not be called a deranged man? Does religious association override psychological conditions? Are terrorist organizations the only organizations on earth with perfectly sane members?
And why does the rise of terrorist organizations coincide with the rise of veganism?
And deliberately missing my definition, which is peace time, which is what westerners are used to, and in living memory, which I stretched to mean post WW1. Even WW2 veterans count peace as the default state of being in the west, which is all that the vast majority of us have ever known.
I'm reminded of Orwell's comment about a certain tendency of the left to identify itself with Communism, resulting in whitewashing (redwashing?) anything the USSR does whilst portraying anything the liberal democracies do as in the wrong. The USSR is dead, but that tendency is still there, but their ideological ally of choice is now the anti-Christian-Jewish religious fundies. For the most part, this means allying with Islamism.
Gilrandir
06-14-2016, 14:22
The USSR is dead
I wouldn't be so sure while Putin is still alive.
I'm reminded of Orwell's comment about a certain tendency of the left to identify itself with Communism, resulting in whitewashing (redwashing?) anything the USSR does whilst portraying anything the liberal democracies do as in the wrong. The USSR is dead, but that tendency is still there, but their ideological ally of choice is now the anti-Christian-Jewish religious fundies. For the most part, this means allying with Islamism.
Whenever Fragony or someone brings this up, I have to admit, it sounds like crazy-talk. Then again, there are probably a subset of strange individuals where this applies.
Pannonian
06-14-2016, 15:49
Whenever Fragony or someone brings this up, I have to admit, it sounds like crazy-talk. Then again, there are probably a subset of strange individuals where this applies.
The people at the top of the Labour party, for one. Orwell noted that these sections of the British Left saw the imperialists as the enemy, and therefore anyone who was the enemy of the imperialists was their friend and ally. Meaning they identified themselves with the Communists. Orwell, as we know, was a socialist and therefore of the Left, but he saw the error, which is obvious to us in hindsight, in allying with the Communists. Hence Animal Farm. He was no fan of imperial Britain either, certainly not after his experiences in Burma, but he also know enough to know that there were worse things in the world.
Our liberal democracy is not perfect by any means, but there are much worse things in the world. Unfortunately, parts of the British Left, nowadays in charge of the Labour party, see the world in the way that Orwell decried, except with Islamists in the place of Communists. If they oppose the imperialists then they must be friends. And I suppose, judging from Husar's posts, that there are equivalents in other countries too.
CrossLOPER
06-14-2016, 18:29
OK, even I didn't expect this one.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36527946
And what exactly does deranged mean? Could someone who joins a terrorist organization to cut off heads and be a murdering superhero not be called a deranged man? Does religious association override psychological conditions? Are terrorist organizations the only organizations on earth with perfectly sane members?
And why does the rise of terrorist organizations coincide with the rise of veganism?
Two things: 1) IS is extremely violent, and attracts violent people. 2) Believing in an omnipotant all-creator who guides all creation and sets strict moral standards under threat of eternal agony can make you do strange things.
And deliberately missing my definition, which is peace time, which is what westerners are used to, and in living memory, which I stretched to mean post WW1. Even WW2 veterans count peace as the default state of being in the west, which is all that the vast majority of us have ever known.
OK. Why only the West?
Pannonian
06-14-2016, 19:14
OK. Why only the West?
I live in the UK. I've been around areas that are generally considered the west, and from my experience and what I've read, the experience is similar, as per a generally law-abiding liberal democracy. With little variations on the same theme, the west's societies generally breed people who are respectful of human life and tolerant of social differences. That's the liberal part. The democratic part instils a willingness to accept that one may not necessarily be right. Combined, they produce people who are generally unwilling to kill, and even when they do so as part of a faction, they observe certain limitations on what they do. That is what peace has done to western society. I like it that way.
Why do I only talk about the west? Because that is where my experience stretches. I don't want to speak for other societies and countries. As has been pointed out many times since Iraq, intervention can be painted as imperialism. Therefore we shouldn't intervene, but should let other countries sort things out for themselves. We shouldn't speak for them, and they shouldn't speak for us.
Looks like a couple of people on here also want some sharia law by the back door. Allahuhaha
And deliberately missing my definition, which is peace time, which is what westerners are used to, and in living memory, which I stretched to mean post WW1. Even WW2 veterans count peace as the default state of being in the west, which is all that the vast majority of us have ever known.
I'm reminded of Orwell's comment about a certain tendency of the left to identify itself with Communism, resulting in whitewashing (redwashing?) anything the USSR does whilst portraying anything the liberal democracies do as in the wrong. The USSR is dead, but that tendency is still there, but their ideological ally of choice is now the anti-Christian-Jewish religious fundies. For the most part, this means allying with Islamism.
Actually not deliberate. I would also not say I was whitewashing anything, merely arguing against your point that terrorism is somehow the worst thing that happens to us. And somehow in the course of that I forgot that you made the scope of your argument so narrow that it fits.
I will apologize for overlooking that but not for thinking that terrorism is exaggerated as a threat compared to lots of other threats.
I actually kind of like living in the free world and using terrorism to curb that freedom more and more is not something I like. I could make some strange theory about how only a deluded rightist could think that means I hate myself or our culture but I think that is offensive and does not really further the discussion in any way...
Pannonian
06-14-2016, 20:37
Actually not deliberate. I would also not say I was whitewashing anything, merely arguing against your point that terrorism is somehow the worst thing that happens to us. And somehow in the course of that I forgot that you made the scope of your argument so narrow that it fits.
I will apologize for overlooking that but not for thinking that terrorism is exaggerated as a threat compared to lots of other threats.
I actually kind of like living in the free world and using terrorism to curb that freedom more and more is not something I like. I could make some strange theory about how only a deluded rightist could think that means I hate myself or our culture but I think that is offensive and does not really further the discussion in any way...
It's actually a renowned leftist who's shown me that our society isn't as bad as it's often made out to be. History has shown him to be very, very observant indeed of the human condition, with his observations drawn from experiences in a number of countries and social environments.
"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to the taking of life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of the western countries."
Growing up without a care in the world isn't very good for you, being morally superior is such a luxory-problem, bored rich kids
CrossLOPER
06-14-2016, 22:30
Growing up without a care in the world isn't very good for you, being morally superior is such a luxory-problem, bored rich kids
Against whom was this grammatical masterpiece aimed?
Greyblades
06-14-2016, 22:56
At a guess: Spoiled children of rich families who want to be MLK but cant find an oppressor to fight against and thus make them up.
Pannonian
06-15-2016, 00:08
At a guess: Spoiled children of rich families who want to be MLK but cant find an oppressor to fight against and thus make them up.
As Orwell argued, there's lots of scope for improving our society that doesn't neglect our best traditions in favour of wideranging faction-based politics. But it involves lots of working with people on the ground, with sweat and compromises every day, and no dramatic signal turning points to point to as a marker of one's achievements. Imagine Spielberg's Lincoln, but instead of the passing of the 13th amendment, what you see is the daily grind of deciding who gets funding and who misses out, while you do your damned best to see that what funding you can get for someone's mini project is efficiently used. Even the supposed good guys are an oppressor to someone to whom they've denied funding, yet how do you satisfy everyone? Those who dedicate their lives to doing their best for the underprivileged are my heroes, even if I don't agree with every decision they make.
I'm reminded of Orwell's comment about a certain tendency of the left to identify itself with Communism, resulting in whitewashing (redwashing?) anything the USSR does whilst portraying anything the liberal democracies do as in the wrong. The USSR is dead, but that tendency is still there, but their ideological ally of choice is now the anti-Christian-Jewish religious fundies. For the most part, this means allying with Islamism.
Leftists actually have a word for these people, they call them tankies.
Greyblades
06-15-2016, 04:58
As Orwell argued, there's lots of scope for improving our society that doesn't neglect our best traditions in favour of wideranging faction-based politics. But it involves lots of working with people on the ground, with sweat and compromises every day, and no dramatic signal turning points to point to as a marker of one's achievements. Imagine Spielberg's Lincoln, but instead of the passing of the 13th amendment, what you see is the daily grind of deciding who gets funding and who misses out, while you do your damned best to see that what funding you can get for someone's mini project is efficiently used. Even the supposed good guys are an oppressor to someone to whom they've denied funding, yet how do you satisfy everyone? Those who dedicate their lives to doing their best for the underprivileged are my heroes, even if I don't agree with every decision they make.
...I dont think you and fragony are talking about the same people.
He's a self-hating bigot who was apparently a closet gay man with a profile in a gay dating app. Yet, he's still an "islamic terrorist" to you because he says so, even though his own father refutes that.
If every troubled shithead that comes from a Muslim family does something, and enables you to attribute the whole thing to your Islam boogeyman fantasy than I can't stop your obsession with strangling Islam rather than finding a proper solution.
Good luck, keep on fighting the good fight!
In hindsight now that more is clear, you were probably right
Gilrandir
06-15-2016, 12:36
Believing in an omnipotant all-creator who guides all creation and sets strict moral standards under threat of eternal agony can make you do strange things.
The opposite is also true: believing that there is no ultimate punishment from an omnipotent all-creator for whatever you might do can make you do strange things. Conclusion: if you are prone to do strange things you will do them and it doesn't matter how you justify them.
CrossLOPER
06-15-2016, 16:40
The opposite is also true: believing that there is no ultimate punishment from an omnipotent all-creator for whatever you might do can make you do strange things. Conclusion: if you are prone to do strange things you will do them and it doesn't matter how you justify them.
Well, there is this: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/13/westboro-baptist-church-god-sent-the-shooter/
I wonder, what they would be doing if they were not so pious?
The people at the top of the Labour party, for one. Orwell noted that these sections of the British Left saw the imperialists as the enemy, and therefore anyone who was the enemy of the imperialists was their friend and ally.
You would have to be blind if you fail to see that this worked the other way as well. It is one of the reasons why Republican Spain was hung out to dry by those self-same liberal democracies.
AE Bravo
06-16-2016, 02:19
In hindsight now that more is clear, you were probably right
Just to clarify, I'm not absolving religion entirely. Upbringing is a huge part of mental health, and his upbringing was pretty f'ed up to say the least. His father was as conservative as they come despite not encouraging violence.
At the end of the day though, it comes down to his own demented state.
Seamus Fermanagh
06-16-2016, 04:35
People are people no matter what their sexuality is.
That you feel the need to say this at all -- that it is not so basic a 'given' as to be unconsidered -- is a little saddening. Sadly, I think you are right that it still DOES need to be said.
Gilrandir
06-16-2016, 06:55
Well, there is this: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/13/westboro-baptist-church-god-sent-the-shooter/
I wonder, what they would be doing if they were not so pious?
I'm sure you can find plenty of examples where a religious community supported the victims and their families. Like I said: religion is a catalyzer - it can help you move on the way you have chosen, whether the way of the evil or the way of the good.
CrossLOPER
06-16-2016, 17:19
I'm sure you can find plenty of examples where a religious community supported the victims and their families. Like I said: religion is a catalyzer - it can help you move on the way you have chosen, whether the way of the evil or the way of the good.
That's kind of self-defeating. It is as if you design a car bumper stuffed with explosives.
HopAlongBunny
06-16-2016, 23:32
Samantha Bee get to the point:
https://youtu.be/t88X1pYQu-I
Just to clarify, I'm not absolving religion entirely. Upbringing is a huge part of mental health, and his upbringing was pretty f'ed up to say the least. His father was as conservative as they come despite not encouraging violence.
At the end of the day though, it comes down to his own demented state.
I shouldn't have just dismissed you that was wrong of me my apoligies for that. But maybe I am not wrong, terrorists blend in, it is never someone who wears a beard who does something horrible here, the most vicious attacks are from muslims who appear to be very modern, basicly agents. How to deal with that, no idea, it's just something to get used to imo, it's here and we are here. It will lose becausr it has the negative perk of not being able to shock no matter how horrifying.
Gilrandir
06-18-2016, 13:42
That's kind of self-defeating. It is as if you design a car bumper stuffed with explosives.
You seem to think that religion is an agent and it moves people like pieces on the chessboard. In my opinion religion is a game people play, so if a person kills somebody with a chessboard, do we blame the chessboard?
IMO it does not so much as move people as it gives them reason to justify doing what they did. Of course anything can be twisted and misinterpreted to justify wrong doings, but to go back to the chessboard, I'd say that I'd rather have a roll up chess mat than a wooden board with hard corners that can be used to hit someone really hard.
:juggle:
Gilrandir
06-19-2016, 06:17
IMO it does not so much as move people as it gives them reason to justify doing what they did. Of course anything can be twisted and misinterpreted to justify wrong doings, but to go back to the chessboard, I'd say that I'd rather have a roll up chess mat than a wooden board with hard corners that can be used to hit someone really hard.
:juggle:
I believe everything is decided before a person takes up a religion. He approaches his spiritual conversion with a baggage of values and preconceived attitudes. If those are initially well-meaning religion gives him a push in one direction (charity, mercy, tolerance and so on), if it is otherwise religion gives him a push in the opposite (violence, hate of opponents). Every person selects whatever tenets chime with his inner self, and religion has all kinds of them.
Greyblades
06-19-2016, 11:21
Samantha Bee get to the point:
https://youtu.be/t88X1pYQu-I
It is good to see samantha still doing good work after having to jump off the the daily show before it crashed and burned.
It is good to see samantha still doing good work after having to jump off the the daily show before it crashed and burned.
That was good work?
Greyblades
06-20-2016, 17:55
Compared to The Daily Show these days.
I miss John Stewart.
HopAlongBunny
06-22-2016, 22:50
Angels sighted in Orlando!:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/19/482698337/angels-from-orlandos-theater-community-guard-mourners-from-protesters
Style counts :)
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