Ancient TW: GRAPHICS discussion [Archive]

dimitrios the samian

07-08-2016, 03:39

Goodmorning Macsen , Leith & others .......

Firstly , thanks Mac for sticky'ing this thread , bcoz we have the other thread which is almost similar I will briefly take a moment to define the difference .

I like us to use this thread to deal with all facets required in the production of the graphics needed for each upcoming release .
By Graphics , we mean Troops & lets include all other required Icons & Review Panels & Potraits & Parchments etc etc also .

It will also be the thread were we discuss plans & allocate the work required on the Graphics we need & in what order we produce them .

Along the way we can report on progress or problems as required .

The other thread we will use for learning sharing & teaching various techniques (skinning-modifying & creating etc etc)

Ideally what we need is our Stickied Threads to be Sub-Sections !
eg > A sticky thread Titled "GUIDES" in which you can quickly transfer all the existing Faction Previews already done .
So when entering the Guides sub-section one can then enter into Factions or the yet to come guides on Tactics , Troops , Strategy , etc etc :yes:

Other topics will also need Stickied Sub-Sections like hmmm , Bug Reports , Beta Testing (we have) & others ofcourse at your discretion .

I sincerely hope the Org's forums have this capability .
( please check this Macsen when you get time , with the higher powers)

.......................................................

Ok , Another nice touch will be beginning our posts with a TITLE , done in bold capitol letters & different color , its valuable & will help in quickly finding whats required in threads that become nuggets of information on half a dozen topics . examples can include ....

eg , QUESTION , ANSWER , IDEA , PLAN , PROGRESS REPORTS etc etc .

I will begin doing this & we can all follow to keep things in order & easy to find .

many thanks guys
I hope we work & stay together for many many productive years & mods to come :bow:
cheers
Dimitrios

****************************************
Ok I shall begin ....

THE PLAN #1

Leith I would like you to join me & help finish of those important units required to enhance "Rise of Persia" .
we both have revealed some superb work , I have posted some early prototypes & you have done so also with some fantastic high detailed troops .

My mission will be finishing of the Hellenic Bif (as it was my first)
Leith , your first task will be the Ptolemaic Hoplites .

I would like to send you the Ptolemaic Bif plate so you can finish it , in doing so we will use the other thread & I will share with you my new cloning technique , eg the 4 standing units (once finished) quickly become the 44 others required on the remaining 11 plates ..................... (pm me & send yr email)

After we both finish our first task , we both get into the Biblical & then the Egyptians , Indians etc etc .
More on these later .

dimitrios the samian

07-08-2016, 12:16

FOR FUTURE USE

ptolemic hoplites Back side
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ptolemic hoplites walking
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Nice troops Leith , they would be ideal for a Mod I'd like to do in the future .
I think with a slightly lighter Indian type skin tone we could use them as Late Hellenistic Era Bactrian/Hindu Kush Pikes !!
Put them on ice for a while & we can get back to them again when the time comes .

Leith

07-08-2016, 19:40

Here is some more eye candy from my unfinished Viking Invasion 3 mod. We might be able to incorporate them in future mods,

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macsen rufus

07-08-2016, 23:08

Some nice looking units there, Leith - really spices up the Viking scenario!

dimitrios the samian

07-09-2016, 07:40

FOR FUTURE MODS ..

Here is some more eye candy from my unfinished Viking Invasion 3 mod. We might be able to incorporate them in future mods,

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hmmm ~:cool: , I remember seeing them little blokes on the Middle Earth Mod , I think ?? ~:confused: dwarves ??
There nice Leith , only need "an ankle & 2 kneecaps" :bounce: to ready them for recruitment :laugh4:

Seriously
Leith those original Hellenics look so clean & spiffy with their grey Thracian styled boots & new hair !! ( more on these later ))
Post the Archer you modified when you get a chance .
cheers

Leith

07-10-2016, 13:52

Hi dimitrios! Those animations were taken from middle earth tw but I heavily modified them to look good enough. Anyway I don't know which bif you're referring to. Could you point to the exact screenshot ?
Regarding the archer in question,I appear to have lost the file together with many more bifs as a result of buying/selling a new laptop. Don't worry though, they can be replaced.

dimitrios the samian

07-10-2016, 13:56

In the screen shot where they are fighting with the light blue hellenic unit .... Yes metw have some great bifs ! Including a wild oxen beast being riden ..impressive

dimitrios the samian

07-17-2016, 23:09

UPDATE :

Hello gentlemen , Great news !

I have made some huge progress on my skills .
On my first attempt at just "tidying up the generic Hellenic" Bif unit i made some very basic errors & I continued to compound them .

Those troops were tested by macsen and screenshot posted .

In my efforts to rectify them i had my biggest ha ha moments ! and i swiftly and 100℅ accurately redid the 4 standing angles and all the Archer shooting angles x12 plates followed .
In the coming week i will go on to finish the remaining actions and also draw in the quiver and sword .

By using a combo of both Photoshop and BifReader & some patience , the next lot will be ready a lot quicker & will be much better looking .
I have discovered many simple ways of improving the units we currently use and also bringing in many newly skinned troops that we so desperately need .

I also have created a totally new animation for the Slingers , at present its only one frame (all 12 ) but its fluid & looks really good .

Cheers

Some New Troops for the upcoming Rise of Persia

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macsen rufus

07-18-2016, 01:13

Great news, Dimitrios - I look forward to meeting the new new guys :2thumbsup:

And don't forget, making basic errors is the best way to learn (I'm beginning to suspect it's the ONLY way :clown: )

Leith

07-18-2016, 11:43

Hi guys! Your new animations look great, dimitrios! They will fit right in the ROP theme. Thank you for your hard work!

dimitrios the samian

07-30-2016, 09:53

UPDATE

Hello dudes ,
After a slow 2 weeks due to some family commitments
I can resume again at a brisk pace to pickup & finish of not one ..................... but two bif plates !! :yes:

I invested the little time I had & worked only on the Ptolemaic African Hoplites .
I unpacked the 12 plates & worked on them on Photoshop , laying out the base coat changing theirexposed skin from Caucasian to negroid .

I still need to repack the bif & run it thru bifreader in motion to add the highlights to the skin & the basic details around the greaves .
Both tricky tasks , but with my confidence & technique much better than I set out these guys will be finished along with the first bif .

So summing up , both at about 80% & I'm looking forward to contributing them to the Ancients Mods .

macsen rufus

07-31-2016, 01:19

Encouraging news, DtS - more power to your (Photoshop) pen (tool) :2thumbsup:

YanBG

08-02-2016, 09:52

Making graphics is a huge labor but they'd definitely catch my eye when deciding which mod to play.

dimitrios the samian

08-02-2016, 10:49

Making graphics is a huge labor .......

You got that right :yes:
I'm just free handing at the moment over the top of existing animations , improving some & adding to others
but I have drawn up one new one a "Slinger" , just a roughy & only one angle & far from finished .
We desperately need a Slinger for our Ancient Mods .... be so so nice if we could port an existing one into MTW or have someone with the skills to produce it :2thumbsup:.
If your keen on Ancient time period let macsen know & you can "beta test" a faction or two .

macsen rufus

08-03-2016, 20:18

Hi YanBG,

Welcome to our dusty corner of the Org - I saw the new unit you posted in the Alchemists' Lab yesterday, very nicely done :bow:

As DtS said, beta-testers are very welcome. That said, I seem to have made so many changes to my 'master' copy, the beta-install is getting a bit old hat now. I think an 'ATW2:EE v1.0' is not far away..... :creep:

YanBG

08-04-2016, 09:38

dimitrios the samian

08-04-2016, 10:21

Hey Macsen Rufus ~:wave:

Recently i haven't found the time to play but as the units go i'm nearly done with the setup to render all frames(336!) with one click in blender. I plan to post it with a tutorial so anyone could use it ~:)

Great news Yan !!!
I will be keen to learn from you .
I hope you don't mind , I will ask lots of questions as im a newbie
& I want to make the Slinger for macsens mods :yes:
I have only the 12 frames of one angle at the moment

YanBG

08-13-2016, 18:18

Slingers are on the run!

https://i.imgur.com/8rMTLtP.gif

Notes: green player color usually has convertion issues(transperancy), so i left the skirt in purple because i think it's good to have both of them too. If it clashes with the HTW units i can change it, so let me know!

He has no sleeves, it might be better to make him easier to recognize on the battlefield, again if you want i can make him with a tunic/shirt like the archers.

Is that overhead animation good? We might have trouble fitting him in the plates without separating the sling(it's too wide) from his hand.

I gave him slippers... not sure if that's what you want.

Is that hair, i thought about a helm or a cap?

dimitrios the samian

08-13-2016, 22:49

Quick work Yan .... Well done on your efficiancy .
But it is not showing up correctly for me , seems like his looping on just a few frames , like he is making a table tennis stroke.
Ok about the animation being overhead , in my opinion is what we need , overhead and swinging in air for four or five frames then releasing ! and remember 11.12 and 1 to depict reload .
The slinger we currently have uses up four rectangles also , so a bit and give and take it should fit comfortably on that bif plate .
I know slingers never wore helmets , so just hair for me , hehe , over to you mac .

macsen rufus

08-14-2016, 01:56

That is a nice animation YanBG :2thumbsup:

And definitely, no headgear is the way to go.

There are a few issues to address for it to be able to integrate it into Ancient. First off, I can't afford a whole folder just for slingers - as per HTW it needs to be integrated with other units in the one BIF. DtS you have a small misconception there, too - the slinger doesn't use just 4 rectangles - it uses all of them, because they still have to walk, charge, fight die, run etc etc. The HTW BIF with slingers in is the basis for a lot of the 'barbarian' units - to be honest I'm not sure whether the 'slinging' action has dedicated rectangles - it looks the same as the attack with just the weapon changed (plus the addition of the 'reload' pause, of course). For the record, that one BIF supports 14 different units.

My ideal solution would be to add 'slinging' actions to existing BIFs, so that we can have different looking slingers for different factions - that's probably my biggest bugbear with the animations - all the slingers look exactly the same, and there are four different slinger units. And of course they would need to be synchronised with any other missile units in the same BIF so that they all reload and aim in the same frames, because each BIF only has one 'aim.txt' to set the pause.

In any thoughts on new units, it is necessary to remember that Ancient is really rammed with pretty much every possible BIF folder already in use or reserved (eg African hoplites and the 'Biblicals') and I have a long 'to do' list for new units already....

dimitrios the samian

08-14-2016, 03:06

"I can't afford a whole folder just for slingers - as per HTW it needs to be integrated with other units in the one BIF" .
... I understand that mac , how nice it would be if we had Custom 11 to Custom 20 :laugh4:

"DtS you have a small misconception there, too - the slinger doesn't use just 4 rectangles - it uses all of them" .
... Mac , I'm glad to report that I have now progressed way beyond that level also :book2:

"The HTW BIF with slingers in is the basis for a lot of the 'barbarian' units - to be honest I'm not sure whether the 'slinging' action has dedicated rectangles" .
... it has , I checked that a few weeks ago & also its frame is 9 were the projectile is released , I fully understand that its a valuable heavily used Folder .

"And of course they would need to be synchronised" .
... I am already on to that also , including "the aim txt" :yes:

Mac , its nice to know we have room for the new upcoming Bifs I'm working on .
The African Hoplite & the 2 Biblicals .

1st biblical is re-skinned over this barbarian bif , with its Slinger & all other troops it represents , But in new Arabic style !!

2nd biblical is the darker skinned topless Bif currently being used by the Gandharans , I have added the headpiece , some boots & a few touches etc etc , It is used by the Archer & lots more & it is very valuable also .

So with folders scarce , much more thought required on this one and I agree with macsen it would be nice .
....."to add 'slinging' actions to existing BIFs, so that we can have different looking slingers for different factions"

SUMMING UP :

Ok , I have had a good long think about it & I think its best that we proceed on with the Bifs we have at present , like macsen once many many years ago re: the driver " thems the elephant we got , thems the elephants we use " :laugh4:

I do thank you Yan for taking time out & making up this protype to show us . I also apologize for revving you up ( perhaps we best put him on ice now & both focus on other things & down the line he may be used in another mod or scenario etc etc )

I do also thank you macsen for taking the time out to respond in length to this topic about slingers and I apologize also , for the distraction as I know your time is limited & best spent elsewere where its most needed .

cheers to us all here .

........................................................

How nice it would be if Sega or the head honcho's gave us another patch with more folders !
Shall we take a chance & write them a letter & ask ? :beam:

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macsen rufus

08-15-2016, 13:09

Ah, yes, Dimitrios, the difference another ten folders would make :thinking2:

Talking of elephants, too, I would like about three elephant folders.... but it ain't gonna happen, sadly.... I think the most variety I can squeeze in is to render the one existing elephant at two differnt sizes to represent the Indian and African elephants for the eastern and western successor factions (as appropriate etc etc). Still need to try that out, but it's part of the 'to do' list.

On another front, it struck me that the African hoplites could be done quickly, and the reason is that the graphics are INDEXED. In fact I was so struck by the idea, I tried it out, and it took about an hour or so to get a rough and ready version done. As it was a 'suck it and see' exercise I didn't take as much care as I should have, but it pretty much works, and my 'Aethipioi epilektoi' are now in service to the Ptolemies. They are a bit paler than I wanted, and somewhat blotchy, but that's because I didn't do it precisely enough.

So the method is this:

Extract all frames from the BIF to BMPs (use the 512x512)
Open up in Photoshop
Open up the palette and save the original (use a name like [BIF_H_1].act
Then you need to use the eyedropper tool ON THE COLOUR TABLE
Select a patch of skin tone with the eydropper tool - the corresponding indexed colour in the table (and on the BIF) will go transparent
(This is where I cut corners - I just fiddled straightaway, instead I should have drawn up a list of tones and worked methodically)
Turn OFF the colour table eye-dropper, then select the transparent table entry with the regular cursor (can't recall if single or double click...) This will bring up the colour selection dialog
Select a new colour using the sliders, cursor or by entering RGB values
When it's done, every pixel of skin tone 1, will now be changed to your new skin tone 2
Repeat until all skin tones have been changed
Check that no obvious 'non-skin' uses of those colours occur (shields especially - on this more later)
When you are satisfied with the new skin on your first BMP, SAVE the palette again, to [BIF_H_2].act
Open up the other 11 BMPs and now LOAD [BIF_H_2].act into them. Their skin will also be transformed instantly.
IF the shields pick up any original skin tones (one did in my test) then simply copy the shields and weapons section (take the whole width of the BIF to make positioning easier) from a BMP with palette 1, and paste it into the ones with palette 2 - this will re-index the colours in the pasted section to the next nearest, and will get rid of any speckling or blotches.
Switching between the two palettes will show you the changes more clearly
Once you have your 12 BMPs, save them at full size, then reduce to 256x256 and save again for the low-resolution versions, then assemble new BIFs with BIF reader as per normal.

The upshot of the method is that you only need to change each colour once, and not for every pixel on every body in every frame :2thumbsup:

This method should also work for things like reversing the faction colours - but I think you would need to first make the changes, then convert to RGB mode, then back to Indexed mode and re-load the ORIGINAL palette. This would leave the new colours in the right place on the images and the colour indexes in the right place in the palette.

And the whole slinger question is not a distraction, no apologies required, DtS :bow: I think Yan's slinging 'action' looks far nicer than the original HTW version. If it could be applied to the existing bodies we have, that would be awesome.

My 'wish list' for slingers would be to add them to:

The 'Indian' BIF
The 'Biblical' BIF*
The 'Thracian' BIF (Duke John's one that I use for Thracian Peltasts, Agrianes and tribal archers etc)
The 'Greek tunic' BIF

and maybe even the 'Armoured Eastern Infantry' BIF (ie the body for Kardakes, Assyrians etc)

However, I appreciate it is a very different process starting a new model from scratch than it is editing an exisitng BIF plate. As I've never looked at the 3D modelling side of things, I have no real grasp on what the tools can achieve. For instance, can Blender (or whatever) 'backload' the BIF plates to reconstitute a 3D model, or is that asking too much of the magical software fairy???

* I just saw that will be in the 'Biblical 1' BIF :2thumbsup: Just the job for my new Arab Slingers (available only to the Ptolemies and Nabateans in the Successors campaign, sure they'll be worked back into other scenarios later....)

dimitrios the samian

08-15-2016, 13:48

]"Talking of elephants, too, I would like about three elephant folders.... but it ain't gonna happen, sadly...... "
[/COLOR]
Don't be sad mac ! ... It is very do able ... but more thought & experimenting & measuring bifs is required ......
but quickly to excite our palettes , if we separate the elephants from the riders (cloth will go with riders so we have faction colours ) we make enough Elephant Units we can save on folders , :yes: ..

eg:1 Bif for Elephant & (hoping)a Bif with 2 crews .... We extract 3 different Elephant Units from 2 Folders .

Now , Let us say we use 2 Folders for Crew giving us 4 Different Crews & the Beast in the other ......
We get 4 different Elephant Units from 3 Folders ......4 from 3 .

Add one more to the mix , so 3 Crew Folders & 1 Elephant Gives us 6 Different Units ! .. 6 from 4

Should be enough :creep: ...... perhaps that Armoured front line Beast can become a reality as could an Indian all Archer Unit to rain extra long distance death to its enemies ~:) ( for 2017 )

If we can make two types of Elephants we double our variety ....
More thought needed here , but its do-able & if need be to fit it in the bif , we just scale slightly downwards in the bif , then up them in the product file so they are larger on the battlefield .

On another front, it struck me that the African hoplites could be done quickly, and the reason is that the graphics are INDEXED......

Awesome :bounce: , I just knew that Photoshop had the power to do but I never stumbled on it ! ... nice one !!

In fact I was so struck by the idea, I tried it out, and it took about an hour or so to get a rough and ready version done. As it was a 'suck it and see' exercise I didn't take as much care as I should have, but it pretty much works, and my 'Aethipioi epilektoi' are now in service to the Ptolemies. They are a bit paler than I wanted, and somewhat blotchy, but that's because I didn't do it precisely enough.......

The upshot of the method is that you only need to change each colour once, and not for every pixel on every body in every frame ........

Amen to that !! ...... once instead of .. :tredmil:

Practice & patience will be required to get thrifty on this one .
& I understand the instructions you have written , so with skin we may need to change four or five key colors then step back & look for the rogues & finish off .
No problems with shields & weapons , I make them come & go using the cut & move manoeuvre .

And the whole slinger question is not a distraction, no apologies required, DtS ......
Thnx :bow:

I think Yan's slinging 'action' looks far nicer than the original HTW version. If it could be applied to the existing bodies we have, that would be awesome.........

mmmmm , I wonder , it would be so nice , existing bodies & uniforms & scale , but don't think it can be done unfortunately .

As I've never looked at the 3D modelling side of things, I have no real grasp on what the tools can achieve. For instance, can Blender (or whatever) 'backload' the BIF plates to reconstitute a 3D model, or is that asking too much of the magical software fairy???......

I'm only new also as you know & once again it ain't possible (was the first thing I asked Yan) ........
but !! ...I been busy , cutting & pasting , adjusting & splicing & I have a much better Slinger .
Its made from what we have , so it retains the charm & style of the original Hellenics .
I played around today & got one frame done 12x , perfect & 2 hrs .
Its very promising ! ..... & I also have a Rodian staff Slinger that can come true if needed in the Hellenic Deluxe I would like someday ~;) .

YanBG

08-15-2016, 14:23

For adding actions to existing figures' plates(granted there is space, or you mean about replacing an action?), having the original HTW models and rendering in the same program(i read that Duke John used Sketchup) would hold the best results, moving arms around and changing the animation would be easy for someone who worked with other 3d programs.

In MTW run and charge are usually very similar, especially if the weapons are separated, so that could be used for new action or with a lot of manual labor the new frames can be turned 90 degrees and placed in existing gaps.

dimitrios the samian

08-15-2016, 15:09

..... or with a lot of manual labor the new frames can be turned 90 degrees and placed in existing gaps.

That's how all of the work above must be done Yan ! .... unfortunately .
but by cutting & pasting , adjusting angles ( manualy on other plates ) then re-positioning on master plate & also by mixing portions from different frames , a lot is possible .

eg , I mixed a few frames from the waist down & again upwards & I have made new stances & moves .
& this all on that Barbarian Slingers Body , its corrected him from looking like a cricket bowler to a Slinger , but needs some tweaking , its only 1 frame & we need 3 more ......
& btw , I believe the original boys that created it back in 2003 were aiming to get a Staff Slinger from this one !

Anyway ,With some more time , I know I can get the two proper slinging actions (Staff & Rope Sling) from the BifPlates we have (but it will take lots of time ...LOTS ) & he will still be a Barbarian ..... & a bit more again & voila ...
An Hellenic :dizzy2:
& now that Macsen has shown us a method to play around with color , our options have increased & time required decreased :2thumbsup:

macsen rufus

08-16-2016, 02:02

Re elephants - when I said I wanted three folders, that's for three different mounts: basic, cataphract and semi-cataphract ~D

I'd be surprised if the original HTW 3D models still exist, but if they did.....

Yan, I was thinking of adding an extra action rather than replacing any - that would require so much 'surgery' to all the other units' actionpages and whatnot, I'm sure we'd be debugging it for years. Adding an extra action would just require those new rectangles to be defined in the actionpages for the new units using them.

Now I've had a bit more of a play with the Ptolemies, I've had a chance to get the Aethiopioi epilektoi into the field - here they are, alongside regular Macedonian Pezhetairoi:

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and, yes, that Amazigh horseman LBM needs redoing, I dropped the ball somewhere in converting the last batch of unit icons.

dimitrios the samian

08-16-2016, 03:31

Re elephants - when I said I wanted three folders, that's for three different mounts: basic, cataphract and semi-cataphract ~D

I'd be surprised if the original HTW 3D models still exist, but if they did....

Mac ... You mean 3 different Elephants ? :laugh4:
Seriously if we just remain as we are ... its 1 for 1 .

3 Folders with Crew & Elephant combined > Gives us only 3 different Units .............. 4 for 4 etc etc ...

Now !! .... If we separate the two components & yes still only using the one Elephant we have .

SEPERATING ELEPHANT & CREW

3 Folders > Gives us 4 different Units
4 Folders > Gives us 6 different Units ...................... & so on & so on .

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I did these 2 pics quickly to illustrate my idea's & check the mounts ..... ( without measuring by eye , two mounts should fit into a Bif ) :2thumbsup:

Not pixel perfect yet !.......(so a bit of freehand around the cloths on the elephant & mounts ) plus a touch up around the ears & the two bifs would be ready to come together .

:idea2: .... & another idea I have had for a long time now is to use existing horse mounts , slightly modded to suit to sit on these beasts !

About the 3d Model for the Elephant , we don't need it (thank god) what we have is thankfully enough , what we will need is the time to mod the various crews for different factions .

I think setting co-ordinates on the bif plates is not as difficult as it seems .... 14 per plate

If we add the other Elephant so we have both (African & Asian) ....
We do the following to save 100's of hours of time/work .....
It must "just be a re-skin on this Elephants base plate" .

Likewise if we texture it with Armour :2thumbsup:

All up , It is do-able .
& If we had helpers , it would make it loads quicker .

YanBG

08-16-2016, 08:04

The infantry plates have space for additional slinger action then? In any case it's difficult to get someone to pick up from where the old designers left.

Are the preview icons from HTW as well or there weren't any and you made them?

Btw is it just me or the soldiers clothing look a bit pixelated? They seem to have anti-aliasing so it's probably because of the design and color scheme, the Elephants(skin texture) look great though!

dimitrios the samian

08-16-2016, 09:49

No additional space , just 4 rectangles where our one & only Slinger is & in one folder only .
They were not designers , just modders like us & I'm here working away with Macsen & yes it is hard to find people to help .
Preview Icons are a mix of original MTW , Hellenic TW & Bronze Age plus some of Macsens & perhaps others also .
You mean the Elephant Riders ? yes there clothing looks like pea soup close up , but its ok on the field ...
How close to you get in battle ?

macsen rufus

08-17-2016, 03:36

Before you do too much with elephants, consider that the HTW team did something very unusual with cavalry... I'm not sure why, but basically all the HTW cav is made as 'riders', mounted on to a single transparent pixel. It could be because of all the chariot teams they included, using up all the 'horse' folders. Anyway, it confuses matter somewhat...

To be honest I'm not bothered about having different crews - different elephants would be a nice luxury IF we had spare folders, but for now the one elephant in two different scales for Indian and African will suffice. (I tested out the different scales, and it works fine :2thumbsup:)

As DtS said, some uniticons are from HTW - in the screenshot above, the three on the left are mine, the three (well one, really...) on the right is from HTW. As for slinger actions, well, it should be possible to make some room in some of the BIFs with a bit of juggling.

dimitrios the samian

08-17-2016, 04:26

Before you do too much with elephants, consider that the HTW team did something very unusual with cavalry ......

I won't be doing much with the Beasts at present ... got my 4 bifs we need in order & progressing smoothly .
bcoz for me its a totally new beginning its taking way extra long "but with benefits" for future clean up jobs :2thumbsup:

Consider that the HTW team did something very unusual with cavalry ...

hmmm ? interesting .... we leave as be at present , ( but if you can enlighten me unravel this mystery ) it could be a blessing in disguise .
But briefly, we both know if we separate the rider from Horse we can save upwards of 3 or 4 folders & in scenario's were so many Chariots are not required we have ample Folders .

To be honest I'm not bothered about having different crews ..........

hehe , Im the opposite :yes: I will relish the challenge to construct crews "should we free up folders" ....

different elephants would be a nice luxury IF we had spare folders ........

I agree !! I will take them any day & we only need one spare ~;)

but for now the one elephant in two different scales for Indian and African will suffice. (I tested out the different scales, and it works fine...

Awesome news !! f@#%in Superb !! .....

Does the scaling leave riders as they are & only make the Beast larger ?

Anyway ..........of topic slightly but "Folder" related nevertheless .....

Our Barbarian Slinger he lacks projectiles ( nothing visible on screen) at least for my install .
Is this because he was placed in a folder not suitable ?

Cheers

macsen rufus

08-17-2016, 04:50

Our Barbarian Slinger he lacks projectiles ( nothing visible on screen) at least for my install .
Is this because he was placed in a folder not suitable ?

No, nothing to do with folders - it depends what the projectilestats.txt calls up - some projectiles don't show on screen (eg arquebus shot), so it could have been based on one of those. I haven't delved into it ...

dimitrios the samian

08-18-2016, 10:52

]: UPDATE :[/COLOR]

Hellenic Bif : 90%
Ptolemaic African Hoplites : 90%

Guys , made very little progress on these two over the past 3 wks .
I suppose I could have had them finished , but my time away from these two bifs has been spent on advancing my skills & it has yielded huge technique improvements & new methods working PSP & BIfReader .
So all up it was valuable time/spent wisely :bow:........ also got started on my BetaTesting ~D

The Hellenics , especially the 4 standing figs along with the Archers legs no longer have flashing bits & rolling sandals & sparkling hair , gone also is the snaking on their belts & collars ...... yep , they were a mess before :dizzy2:

I still need to put faces on the remaining figs that run/walk/fight( as I messed about too much before ) .
I'll do it in two or 3 concentrated sessions , side by side on PSP using an original & my bif , utilising the cut & paste or magic wand method , the results will make them look very nice (at least to me) .

I repacked the Hoplite back into a Bif again today , I spent a few hours 2 wks ago laying the dark base coat on their skin , now in motion frame by frame , i'll finish of their skin ( highlights) & cutting in edges & also add a few touches !

I'll give an estimate mac & say this time next week they will be shipped over to you , by email :smiley2:

Leith

08-18-2016, 21:22

Don't worry dimitrios! It used to take me 7-10 days to finish a bif when I first started then things got easier as I began to know what to look for while editing/creating a model. I'm sure the final product is worth it!

macsen rufus

08-22-2016, 23:29

I was intrigued by another of Stazi's discoveries:

For the last few days I've been testing usability of 1024x1024 textures for units. The goal is to avoid the hardcoded limit of units' folders and place more units in one texture. It works flawlessly but they are some exceptions.

As we know, grid is always 256x256. When I put an original 512x512 unit texture into a new 1024x1024 (I was aiming for 4 units in one texture) I have to reduce the frames' rectangles by half. It makes a unit appear in game half of its original size. To counter this I tried to use SCALE parameter in unit_prod file. The problem is the max value of it is 225. Default value for cavalry units is 138. It means than even if we use the max 225 value a unit is still about 40% too small.............

More here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?146170-Religious-communism&p=2053563556&viewfull=1#post2053563556)

I was so intrigued,in fact, I just had to try it out ~D

I noticed a couple of very similar plates whilst skimming through my archive of BMPs (I keep a directory full of them to quickly identify BIFs without having to open them up each time). One of the BIFs was only used for a single unit, the gastraphetes, whilst the other carries quite a lot, include Punic Archers, Yficratian Hoplites, Late Hoplites etc etc. The gastraphetes had the same attack, charge and die animations, but the shoot, walk and run were different - so a total of 12 'rectangles' to copy over.

I have succeeded in creating a combined plate of 640x640px, which includes all the actions from both of the original 512x512 BIFs, plus the weapons, plus a few extra shields (which will be needed for more Hellenistic units...) It was a long-winded and finicky job, but with care and planning it was mostly rote repetition to carry eveything across and place it consistently into all twelve frames of the new BIF.

This gives some idea of what's been done:

18838

I did the usual, and made a 50% sized copy for lo-res use, but it turns out the engine still renders it down to a 256x256 for picking the animation rectangles. I thought it would be a simple job setting the actionpage coordinates, as I expected most of them to match the originals. In the end I had to scale everything by 80% (256/320) to get it to pick up the right bits. It worked straight away in battle (ie didn't CTD), but was selecting an odd mix of images until I had scaled the actionpage ~D

Of course everything came out smaller than usual, but that was quickly fixed in the unit_prod by adjusting the 'SCALE' column x1.25 (now you should see why I chose 640px as the new size....)

The real pain in the rear is that all the shield and weapon co-ordinates need to be reset, and that is taking longer than all the rest combined. There's no simple way to scale this, so it's a matter of going through all the actions in the items directory and changing them one by one. I'm most of the way through the hoplite shields and one set of coordinates will do for all the units, being as they all hold their shields in the same way.

One extra benefit is that I've now worked out how BIFreader allows you to try out shield positions - it's still long-winded, but a lot better than guessing and then trying out in battle.

And before anyone starts eyeing the gastraphetes' old folder, I've already bagsied it :laugh4:

dimitrios the samian

08-23-2016, 04:33

Awesome news Macsen :2thumbsup: .... this is huge & Inspiring .
I too had read Stazi's threads & you may have noticed ?.
Imagine the difference/richer the Mods would have been a decade ago if this was implemented ~;)
Wow ! Im just reminiscing back to the old "Bronze Age" mod days , what could have been hmmmm ~:)
Had I had progressed on from just that one simple Brothel Icon :laugh4:

Anyway my queries .

I have succeeded in creating a combined plate of 640x640px >>>
Of course everything came out smaller than usual, but that was quickly fixed in the unit_prod by adjusting the 'SCALE' column x1.25 (now you should see why I chose 640px as the new size....) >>>

...... 640x640 brilliant
but !! .... Is it the next size down from the difficult 1024x1024 ? .... confirm this mac its crucial .

I noticed a couple of very similar plates whilst skimming through my archive of BMPs .....

Me too when my graphics journey began & similiarity is very very good !
Lets use it to our advantage :2thumbsup:
eg all Hoplites Plates & even the Generic Hellenic ( & Barbarian Slinger less 4 rectangles ).

but ....>> These 2 Bifs need some "pre-adjustments" before you/we finalise putting the co-ordinates in place.

[ I will elaborate on these adjustments a bit later today , its a simple procedure & we should do it first .
Before we invest more precious time & effort on this aspect ]

(As briefly the Gen-Hellenic Bif will soon spawn > the Biblical Archers , better Indians , new Egyptians & Thracians )
& with this discovery , I will incorporate a brand spanking new Slinger into all of the above :quiet:]

The real pain in the rear is that all the shield and weapon co-ordinates need to be reset .

....... true it is , so don't set any co-ords in concrete yet mac ..
First we make these simple adjustments to the 2 bif plates ...
So its done once from the start & those co-ords become the blue-print for the rest of them to follow .

I'll prep some pics to post , then elaboarate further .

ps ..... the remaining Bronze Age Bifs from the Hellenic Team all come into these equation also :2thumbsup:

macsen rufus

08-23-2016, 11:03

Is it the next size down from the difficult 1024x1024 ? .... confirm this mac its crucial .

No, it's about optimum. 1024px is not so much 'difficult' as too large, because the engine still renders the lo-res at 256px, ie the units will be reduced in size (ie height) by 50%. As Stazi noted, you can only scale up so far, and using a 1024 plate puts it beyond that range, so it wasn't even on the starting blocks.

You need to scale different things in opposing directions - ie selection rectangles need to be reduced back to fit into 256x256, whilst the unit scale needs to be increased on units in expanded plates. At 640 the maths (and therefore the mechanics) works out quite sweetly: what needs reducing goes to 4/5 (80%), and what needs increasing goes to 5/4 (125%).

I did consider going to 768px, as that would be 4/3 and 3/4, but I find that scaling images by factors of three gets messy - especially downwards, and it also gets too close to the scaling limit for restoring the size of units. Plus the larger the hi-res plate, the lower the resolution in the lo-res plate.

If you look closely at the image I posted, it will also become obvious that all the bodies fit within the regular plate size. This particular model is unique in the whole range in that it is the only one that would need to have 12 actions carried over. There is more than enough room for simply adding slinging actions. But for practicalities, it means that for things like the biblicals you can use a whole 512x512 plate for just the men, forgetting about shields and weapons: I can contruct that side of things later.

As I said, it was a deliberate choice of size, and this is the reason for it - I did think it through before starting :book2:.

There's no point in doing this with the remaining hoplite plates, simply because they don't have any other actions to include - and it's way too much work to do for no benefit!

There are other things that can be combined, but now's not the time, as it relates more to the overall project than the current scenario.

dimitrios the samian

08-23-2016, 11:25

No, it's about optimum ..................

Thanks Mac , a simple no would been enough :laugh4:
but I do appreciate the extra distance you went it explaining it , I just don't want to rob you of time u may spend doing coding .
So its confirmed now :bow:&
I can begin .............

First up one weaknesses (for lack of a better word) in the original HTW Bif Plates .
Sizing > Check the first pic ...

18841

Figures 5 6 7 & 15 are way oversized .
Figures 9 10 11 12 & 1 Archer are way undersized .

We can easily remedy this .
The advantages far outway the work ..... it will balance out the top line especially thus giving the 4
Stading figures a bit more room ......

Eventually Toxotes can have Bows showing , Singers with slings & even the Peltasts with their 4 Javs !! all on the one set of 4 standing figures .

Eventually with this bigger BifPlate , if we choose to they can be made to walk & run holding there weapons .

I have made a discovery also , but need to experiment a little before revealing it !!

Now some more good news , ... It is about the Rectangles / Co-Ordinates .
They are identical ! ... see the 2nd Pic .

18842

Changing the co-ords for the rectangles on the top two lines is not so complex & they would cover all our HTW Plates ....( Easterns also)

SUMMING UP :

With the confirmation of the 640x640 a reality .
It is possible to finally do lots more & re-design the Bif plates for maximum usage .
I do think it best we get the figures all scaled properly & spaced out .
Then we have options so graphics can be added in stages ...... ( these little extras will take time , but I'm willing to chip away after the important ones are done ).
.

18843

There's no point in doing this with the remaining hoplite plates, simply because they don't have any other actions to include - and it's way too much work to do for no benefit ..............

Not entirely true mac , there may come a time were we need a folder or 2 ( for different grades of hoplites )
So having the option to combine & save us Plates/Bifs , if need be is a plus & we can easily do when the time comes .

There are other things that can be combined, but now's not the time, as it relates more to the overall project than the current scenario .....

............ very true , you read my mind :laugh4:

macsen rufus

08-24-2016, 11:07

Some interesting ideas there, DtS, but some of them could open a can of worms ...

First up one weaknesses (for lack of a better word) in the original HTW Bif Plates .
Sizing > Check the first pic ...

I'd be very wary of resizing these - it will alter the rendering of the unit on screen, change its origin point and consequently the positioning of shields and weapons, all of which will have to be redone for every unit in every frame at every angle. The difference in size is pretty tiny compared to the variations you get on-screen anyway, with the poor way the engine handles its attempts at perspective. Even in a hoplite phalanx with identical figures you still see variations in size.

TBH I think the work will far outweigh the benefits, because it will cascade through so much other stuff that will need to be altered to suit.

EDIT to add: for a more obvious reason not to try this, just run the timer in BIF reader .... you'll see the running figures bob up and down within their rectangle, and the archer raises his bow right to the top of his window, too.

Likewise, the images don't need 'more room'. They have their rectangles, that's all they need. Putting space between them means re-doing all the actionpage files (and cuts out some a lot of the short-cuts for working on these).

Adding the new actions - like more images for archers carrying their bows - should work out well. (Hold fire on the peltasts for now, I have a cunning plan...)

Now some more good news , ... It is about the Rectangles / Co-Ordinates .
They are identical ! ... see the 2nd Pic .

:yes: That's been a great help in putting together many of my new units over the years.... and also a another reason why I don't think the individual actions should be re-sized.

Makes sense that the HTW team would have a system when producing the BIFs and it looks like they worked from the same basic model with various finishes. It also helps with weapons and shields... :2thumbsup:

there may come a time were we need a folder or 2 ( for different grades of hoplites )

There are already 7 different bodies for hoplites (not including the Africans) out of a total of 49 folders. I think that's enough resources for them ~D

macsen rufus

08-25-2016, 00:14

Another folder liberated :ballchain:

A major rework of the half-naked barbarian BIF (slingers etc) means all the units have been brought back into the one folder, and slingers now have weapons to fight with in melee. They're still only clubs, but at least it's better than pure fisticuffs ~D

Back to the fray....

dimitrios the samian

08-25-2016, 02:26

No worries mac , I will leave the existing figures in their rectangles as sized .............. damn its a simple yet complex dilemma :dizzy2:

I'm fully aware of the rectangles & shields now .... So the few days I invested in studying them is once again valuable & has paid dividends .

I won't waste any time on this as its all working just fine , but with the new Biblical waiting next in line .

I will go the extra few hours & make a few adjustments to the culprits . [ but do not worry it will not affect the existing rectangle sizes/positions ]

What I will do is reduce the 4 oversized figs , they will remain in there same rectangles ....
& I will positioning them behind their shield also , saving all the work - only the centre of gravity ( red point) will need re-positioning .

You gotta understand this from an artists perspective ( which I am not ) but doing all this remodelling is satisfying & eerily familiar .....
So it feels like sacrilege re-skinning images that are not correct .
Anyway knowing its done properly (from the start) on figures of all equal in size is rewarding :yes:
( & it won't be that much extra work)

Adding the new actions - like more images for archers carrying their bows - should work out well. (Hold fire on the peltasts for now, I have a cunning plan...)......

I will hold out here no worries , im excited to see what you will reveal about Peltasts .
Good to see you tweaked the Barbarian Slinger ..... He will soon be for the Barbarians Only ! :laugh4:

....... adding to more great news is , I have finally created a fully working Generic Hellenic Slinger built from the Bif Plate .

At present its only one angle & its smooth & very impressive .

So lets hold out also , before we finalize that major Bif Plate design .

We mull it over carefully , all the pro's & cons as we both know it is a very important BifPlate/Folder .

.. From it soon we will get the Biblicals , then new Egyptians , better Indians & more can follow etc etc .

cheers

macsen rufus

08-25-2016, 11:09

The Golden Rule for modding is to make one change at a time.

What I'd suggest is for the simple re-skinning, do an initial run through keeping all the sizes the same, so that everything works with existing sets of coordinates (redoing these is FAR more tedious than repainting pixel-by-pixel). Then when that works (and gives us a safe roll-back point in the event of unforeseen consequences) try out your ideas on different sizes, and see what still works.

My gut feel is that moving the origin point will cause the figures - and/or weapons and shields - to jump around between frames, which will look a lot worse than any minor size discrepancies. And as I mentioned above, you get more variation between different renderings of THE SAME IMAGE in battle than you see between different images in the BIF plate.

I accept the artistic viewpoint, but to coin an ungainly metaphor: I'm happy to let an artist decide what colour to paint the bridge, but I want the engineers to decide what grade of steel to use to build it ~D

macsen rufus

08-25-2016, 16:32

... the HTW team did something very unusual with cavalry... I'm not sure why, but basically all the HTW cav is made as 'riders', mounted on to a single transparent pixel ...

As part of my latest development, I've been looking into cavalry in more detail, and as I've mentioned elsewhere, this method the HTW team used has a big drawback in that it creates a massive area over which you can 'select' a cavalry unit on the battlefield. I've now found out why, and have fixed it :2thumbsup:

The result is that the cursor only detects the cavalry unit if it is directly over one of the sprites, and not in the surrounding five acres of battlefield. The fix is simple, and will work in an HTW install too.

If you look at textures/men/actionspage/LiHorse.txt it will look like this all the way down:

walk
253 253 252 252 254 254
253 253 252 252 254 254
253 253 252 252 254 254
253 253 252 252 254 254

This means the empty pixels at (252,252) to (254,254) form the 'invisible' mount for the riders (which are rendered complete with their own horse or even elephant). The problem comes with the first two digits - these set the origin point of the unit, but should be relative to the unit . This file puts the origin 250 odd pixels away from the sprite, and so creates that massive 'select' area on the battle field.

The fix is simply to change all the entries to:

walk
1 -1 252 252 254 254
1 -1 253 252 252 254 254
1 -1 253 252 252 254 254
1 -1 253 252 252 254 254

This puts the origin back into the few pixels of invisible horse, and so you can only select it by hovering over the sprite itself. This will cut out heaps of confusion in battle ~D

Further on unit icons and relative heights of sprites - this screenie addresses both:

18847

This is some of the new stuff for the Armenian faction in Successors scenario. Take a good look at the spearmen of the general's unit. Every single man is generated from the exact same rectangle in the same frame (of course some are reflected in true MTW style...). Their heights are all over the shop. It seems the engine randomises them to some degree when rendering (probably to stop it looking too uniform). Anyway, the point is, there's absolutely nothing to be gained in changing sizes in the BIFs.

dimitrios the samian

08-25-2016, 16:59

You are correct mac .. No point in worfying about small discrepancies ..."thems the figs we got thems the ones we use"
And great work unlocking the Cavalry legacy .
Those first two units are almost ready so you will have them soon ..gotta get some zzzz's .
Ciao for now

macsen rufus

08-25-2016, 18:00

OK, so I've made another breakthrough with the horses :2thumbsup:

The background being that HTW legacy is the LiHorse folder being used for this empty-pixel mount to make the cavalry units work as cavalry rather than infantry. This means there is a whole animation of the original LiHorse unit which is not being used. Now, the way cav works is that it must declare a MOUNT in column 48 (eg Persian Horse Archers):

"BOWMAN, YES, YES, LIHORSE"

where the BOWMAN bif is a complete horse+rider jobby, 'mounted' on to the empty pixels defined as LiHorse.

The LiHorse 'mount' is defined by the actionspage (as above) to be those empty pixels, and in the prodfile column 48, its entry is:

"LIHORSE, NO, YES"

So the obvious question is: can a different mount be defined in the unit_prod, to use the actual animations in the LiHorse BIF? ie does the 'LiHorse' in column 48 for the Persian Horse Archers refer to the LiHorse UNIT, or to the LiHorse.BIF?

The upshot is that I tried defining a new unit 'NuHorse', that is also drawn from the LiHorse folder, and added a copy of the original LiHorse actionspage, retitled it NuHorse, and then made a new cavalry unit that used NuHorse as its mount, and used a separate rider to sit on it.

IT WORKED!

This means there is now room for one more horse model. I can feel an attack of the cataphracts coming on ~D

I can already hear the Armenians and Seleucids rejoicing...

macsen rufus

08-26-2016, 00:47

Here's a 'first draft' of the Armenian Cataphracts, using vanilla-issue horse and a rider from Duke John's 'Ancient' package:

18853

Still a bit of work to do, especially with coordinates as mount and rider don't always meet up from certain camera angles, but it's a start :2thumbsup:

dimitrios the samian

08-26-2016, 09:13

Awesome news all round mac ! :bow:
One more free folder is absolutely fantastic & even more valuable if its used in 640x640 mode .
I must say that I don't understand the logistics behind it all , but its ok that you described your discovery ( another nugget).
When I get over this nasty bug that trying to kill me , I may be able to comprehend how you unravelled it all .:yes:
I must say , I always wanted to mention those two cavalry bifs by the Duke (but I didn't want to add to your plate)
Overall nice ..... must get some rest meds & fluid into me .... be back later .

macsen rufus

08-26-2016, 23:03

Hi DtS,

Hope the lurgy isn't getting you down too much - rest and fluids is as good a solution as any, usually...

Well, the folder isn't free any more, it now has the cataphract horse in it :2thumbsup:

I'm still looking at the possibility of a two-horse BIF, looks like it would need a 768x768, and there's some number-crunching to do for the scaling, but I'll be trying it out in due course (so long as the numbers work). The one worry is whether it will have weird interactions with riders - and I have a horrible feeling it will. But suck it and see....

Got the Armenian Cataphracts sorted out for shields and weapons, and found an uncharacteristic error in Duke John's action pages, which was causing the riders to hover above their horses from some angles - the unit 'origin' was 2pixels out. Oh, and some of those had too many legs - I had to do a few amputations ~D

But all looks good now, and I really discovered the hidden powers of BIFreader for setting shields and weapons. It's the tool I always wanted and never realised I had it all along! It has still taken me best part of a day to get it all crack on, but it IS all crack on. Now I know what it can do, there's soooo much I can fix that has been bugging me (especially in the 'hovering weapons' and 'implausibly large shields' departments - there are even some of these bugs in original MTW, iirc).

I have a few more ideas up my sleeve, so will have a good play, and if they work out .. watch this space.

Cheers for now, and look after yourself.

EDIT to add this pic of the new Armenian Cataphracts in action:

18854

dimitrios the samian

09-02-2016, 10:54

UPDATE :
Been over two weeks since I last updated & I'm glad to report im 90% over an illness & today for the first time in over a week or more I managed to do 2 hours of re-skinning ~:)
Finishing of the Ptolemaic African Hoplites & there looking superb , come along so much smoother & faster than my first Bif .
I'm looking forward to putting in another session or two 2mro & continue on over the weekend till these are finished , & then pick up , touch up & I should have the Hellenics done next week also .
cheers

macsen rufus

09-02-2016, 18:50

Glad you're over the worst of the lurgy, and looking forward to seeing the new BIFs - their folders are reserved and dusted down for their arrival ~D

macsen rufus

09-05-2016, 00:09

I'm still looking at the possibility of a two-horse BIF, looks like it would need a 768x768, and there's some number-crunching to do for the scaling, but I'll be trying it out in due course (so long as the numbers work). The one worry is whether it will have weird interactions with riders - and I have a horrible feeling it will. But suck it and see....

Well, I sucked, and so did the results ~D

I tried the basic idea by converting the ArmHorse BIF to a 640x640 hi-res plate, and did the necessary rescaling of the rectangles to pick up the actions correctly. It sort of worked.... I got horses, and riders sat on them (well, no they didn't - they hovered over them).

Even with resetting the horse 'origin' coordinates to stop the hovering it still was not right. What should have been mighty, armoured warhorses ended up as donkeys wrapped in tinfoil. The problem is that mounts don't have a 'scale' entry in the unit_prod file, and will just come out relative to their BIF proportions - ie at four-fifths of the desired size.

In the long run it might be possible to get it to work by also re-BIFing all the potential riders, but it soon becomes a major project, and I'm not 100% sure it would work out even then, as there are too many factors working in opposite directions. So for now we'll have to be content with one mount per BIF.

On the plus side, combining the euthitonon and oxivolos BIFs has worked :2thumbsup:

dimitrios the samian

09-06-2016, 02:29

howdy macsen .....
Im not exactly sure what you mean & I want to help .
I figure your trying to match Duke Johns mounted Greeks onto vanilla MTW horses ? .... but you lose me when you mention rescaling & rectangles .
Let me know ....
I have some ideas & they seem to work (640x640) no rescaling or rectangle dramas required & all the better if a 768x768 is reality .
SO ... We have options ~:)
cheers

macsen rufus

09-06-2016, 10:23

Hi DtS,

That's not quite it - those riders do sit on vanilla horses fine, as per the Armenian Cataphracts and Prodromoi already posted, using the regular 256x256/512x512 horse BIFs. What I was trying to do was get two horses onto one BIF by using a larger BIF for the horses.

This inevitably reduces the size of each horse figure when it is rendered in game, and the rectangles MUST be defined relative to a 256x256 plate, otherwise they won't line up with the horses.

The only way you can avoid resetting the rectangles with an oversize BIF is by also making the units larger (ie if you simply blow up the entire plate instead of adding extra blank canvas - in which case you don't create any extra space in the BIF and therefore there's no point doing it).

Go back to post #40 above, that goes into more detail :bow:

dimitrios the samian

09-07-2016, 08:17

ahh yess .. :bow:
I think I understand now .
Still fantastic that we have the 640x640's :2thumbsup:
anyway , back to Psp , finishing up the Hoppies .

macsen rufus

09-18-2016, 02:11

Well, I just made a discovery that should have occurred to me much sooner...

There is a FREEWARE version of Ultimate Paint 2.88 available from the developer's website :2thumbsup:

Find it here: http://www.ultimatepaint.com/download.php

I've downloaded it and will try it out once I've 'used up' my thirty uses of the v2.82 trial version

Stazi

09-19-2016, 17:06

There is a program that can make miracles with MTW animations, color tables, etc.. http://www.cosmigo.com/promotion/index.php
It also works with our ancient LBM format directly. Freeware version exists but has limited functionality. Anyway, it's worth to check.

macsen rufus

09-20-2016, 00:26

Hi Stazi,

Thanks for dropping by - I've made plenty of use of some of your discoveries, which have really helped this mod (the oversized animation BIFs and the multiple 'forest clearing' buldings have been fantastic developments... :2thumbsup:)

That sounds like a tool I could use, and you can never have too many tools - I'll download it when I'm finished here.

If it allows for fiddling with colour tables for LBMs that could be the holy grail... I've finally found a way to make unit icons with working faction colours, but it needs a few different graphics programmes, each doing a bit of the job (including the pre-test checks to ensure it's all done what you think it has...)

Anyway, here's the result:

18915

The two pezhetairoi icons on the left have successfully picked up the blue of the Antigonids faction colour, whereas the bright pink hypaspists further across were an earlier experiment that didn't work... but they will be the next to convert.

Luckily there's not a lot of unit icons I want to put faction colours into, but now I have a method, I might rethink that ~D

So far the only app I have which will save the LBMs with a defined colour table is Mithel, and that colour table has to be created in Mithel - it took a tedious couple of hours to do, index-by-index. Paint Shop Pro is the only app I have which can read what format of LBM it is opening (must be PBM rather than ILBM) and also accurately display the colour table loaded from the image - so that is needed to check the icon is properly formatted. The one problem with UP is that it will make up its own colour table when saving LBMs, regardless of the colour table you use in the workspace, even if you auto-load the colourtable with your BMP file :sad3: Even PurpGrab's LBM output isn't properly indexed!

So, now I can make my original image in Photoshop as usual, convert it to indexed mode using a pre-prepared PS colourtable which has a useful range of colours in it (it only needs to contain the right colours, indexes don't matter at this stage as Mithel ignores the indexing in the file it opens).

Then it can be saved to BMP and opened in Mithel. Next, load the pre-prepared Mithel colourtable that contains the exact same range of colours, but properly indexed for MTW. Check that the colours in the image are in the Mithel colour table (yes, of course they are, but check anyway...) then save to LBM format.

Next check the LBM looks okay by opening it in PSP (making sure to check the 'details' in the load dialogue box first for PBM sub-format, Run Time Compression and 8 bits per pixel), where it should look all greeny and/or pinky depending on the faction colours you're using. Use the 'colors/edit palette' menu item ('Palette order' is default setting there anyway) to check the indexing is ok (it will be, but check anyway...). Once that all checks out it should be safe to stick it into the 'battle/unit icons' directory then try it out in battle - all being well, it will work, if not expect a CTD.

dimitrios the samian

09-20-2016, 10:38

wow , really nice looking Unit-Icon mac .
Good too see you around again Stazi .

Stazi

09-20-2016, 11:12

Thanks for dropping by - I've made plenty of use of some of your discoveries, which have really helped this mod (the oversized animation BIFs and the multiple 'forest clearing' buldings have been fantastic developments... :2thumbsup:)

I'm glad you find it useful. :)

The one problem with UP is that it will make up its own colour table when saving LBMs, regardless of the colour table you use in the workspace, even if you auto-load the colourtable with your BMP file :sad3: Even PurpGrab's LBM output isn't properly indexed!

I work on indexed BMPs (saving as LBM is the last step). It's easier because most of the apps recognize this format. I use mainly Photoshop but any program that can keep color table intact will do. Ultimate Paint is ok too. You just have to setup it correctly. First, Options > Preferences > Files and check "Auto Load Palette".
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This way UP won't create its own color palette but load the existing one from the BMP.

Then, when you save a file it should look like that:
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It'll save the file with palette you're working on. Most of the time it's enough. If image is still messed up the only way to get correct color table is Seqgrab. Don't use Purpgrab. Images it makes are always messed up.

This is an example of ProMotion color table manipulation window:
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You can switch, copy and move not only single color in palette but any range of colors. It can also remap colors after you moved them. IMO it's as you said - a holy grail for MTW modders. It saves huge amount of time.

macsen rufus

09-20-2016, 12:00

Thanks for that, Stazi - I don't think my version of UP has the 'Use Fast Palette' option in the Save dialogue, but I'll have to check it again now as it's possible I just haven't tried it - that's evidently the step that's missing for me, because I have auto-loaded BMP palettes without the saved LBM working afterwards. I'm currently using 2.82, but have got 2.88 waiting in the wings - maybe that will do it.

Pro-Motion looks excellent, and I'm itching to give it a try when I have another full free day to play with it.

I've got a few icons that could do with converting to faction-colour images, but that will mean going back to my original artwork and starting the process from scratch... again, another full free day will be required.

Leith

09-20-2016, 20:43

Hi guys! I'm keeping an eye on things though I've been busy working and modding! Anyway, hello and welcome back Stazi! I followed your instructions to the letter regarding the LBM icons and the faction colours work except that green becomes pink and pink becomes green. I have no idea why pink and green trade places even though I have tried several things but the results are the same.

Stazi

09-20-2016, 22:09

Leith

09-20-2016, 23:41

dimitrios the samian

09-21-2016, 06:00

: UPDATE :

Ptolemaic Hoplites are finished , apart from the obvious they have been cleaned up considerable , no more blinking lights bulbs on their helmets & they have belts & a sharper ceaner almost linothorax tunic now , as well as looking better overall .

check yr email mac

cheers

Stazi

09-21-2016, 07:27

Your post #64. I did everything you mentioned using ultimate paint but in battle the main faction colour (Green) in the LBM is replaced by the secondary one ( pink ). What could have possibly gone wrong ?

Upload the original file you tired to convert and the I'll check it. Colors don't mean much for the MTW engine. It's all about their indexes in the color table. If color table wasn't corrupted during conversion the only way is to repaint your image switching those colors manually. You can also change colors definitions in the txt file but it'll affect all units so it's not really a solution.

BTW Maybe we should move to your thread because we are a little off-topic here?

Leith

09-21-2016, 14:35

Great news, dimitrios! I look forward to checking them out. Stazi, we might continue our LBM discussion later when my mod is closer to being released. Thank you for the valuable info though.

macsen rufus

09-21-2016, 15:07

Evening all,

Good to see you back, Leith.

@ DtS - thanks for that, will get to my email shortly :2thumbsup:

Stazi, I've tried out Pro Motion, and it is the dog's proverbials. However, it has so many functions, that just using it to make LBM icons is a bit like using a CNC laser cutter to trim my toenails ~D I love the way it can remap the colour table with a single click. I don't think I need UP and PSP any more...

Also, Leith, remember that in original MTW even, the faction colours are reversed between the review panel icons and the battle icons - I don't know if this is a bug or a feature, but you can easily check it out with a unit like the desert archers - in the review panel their tunics are secondary colour, in battle icons they are primary colour. It seems the BIF and LBM faction colours were set up opposite ways round.

dimitrios the samian

09-21-2016, 15:39

...... is a bit like using a CNC laser cutter to trim my toenails ~D I love the way it can remap the colour table with a single click. I don't think I need UP and PSP any more....

:laugh4::laugh4: you must have soft nails mac !

Seriously .. I hope it can blend two different Bif Palettes into one when were making new 640x640's
... eg the Ptolemaic Hoplites & the Negro Nubian Infantry in one BifPlate .

Stazi

09-21-2016, 16:39

Seriously .. I hope it can blend two different Bif Palettes into one when were making new 640x640's
... eg the Ptolemaic Hoplites & the Negro Nubian Infantry in one BifPlate .

You can easily copy/paste color tables between images but you still can't exceed 256 colors. I usually combine such images in photoshop using standard RGB mode and then switch to indexed color mode using "Local (Selective)" palette. The problem arises if the image already has faction colors (green/pink) because you have to move them to the first 32 indexes manually.

Leith

09-21-2016, 19:05

That should explain it then, Mac! Thank you so much for providing the solution. I recoloured the LBM icons accordingly and they look as intended.:bow:

macsen rufus

09-22-2016, 01:56

The African hoplites look good :2thumbsup:

I haven't had them on the battlefield yet, but running the timer in BIF reader gives a good idea.

You seem to have cured them of the disfiguring skin diseases that afflicted my rough-n-ready version ~D

As Stazi says, it's best to work with the images in RGB, though I go a slightly different route for indexing. I have saved a good, wide-ranging Photoshop palette with the faction colours in place and pretty much every colour likely to crop up, then I index via the Index>>Custom>>Load Palette route. All the colours will snap to the nearest available in the palette, you just have to be careful with that background green (#008000) and its near neighbours which are faction colour items (#007400 and #008400, iirc). I have a similar one for the 'LBM' palette where all the colours are identical to the BIF palette apart from the first and last (plus an identical palette in Pro Mo format, and that allows for the indexes to be remapped without moving them manually, if needed). It makes it easier for making icons.

(Actually, I suppose I could re-jig the 'LBM icon' palette so the faction colours are reversed, then any icons using them should come out looking the same on the review panel icons and the battle icons.... might try that someday.... would be easier than recolouring them individually)

I'll be sticking with PS for actual working - Pro Mo can probably do the job, but I'm a few years more experienced with PS and can get it to do what I want without alarming results in a reasonable time.

macsen rufus

09-24-2016, 11:00

Drumroll, please, as I introduce DtS's African hoplites.

I've got them up and running in campaign now, and they are great. I've made the two unit icons from a battle screenshot:

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The unit to their left are thureophoroi.

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This review panel gives an idea of the variety of spear/pike units available to the Ptolemies. In order, they are: Nubian spearmen, pezhetairoi, enomotia ekdromon, hypaspists, aethiopioi epilektoi, machimoi spearmen, pantodapoi and thureophoroi.

Leith

09-24-2016, 19:31

Nice work, although a closer screenshot of DtS's African hoplites would have been nicer. The unit icons look great. What is also interesting is the variety of units available to the Ptolemic general.

dimitrios the samian

09-29-2016, 11:07

: UPDATE :

Hello Guys , I haven't been posting much , but my creative half has been active .
All is good in my part of the world & I hope all you guys are well also .
I have been continuing onwards to getting the Hellenics finished ..... but ! I have been sneaking in some time working on the new Slinger & I can say they are coming along very nicely ! I think they actually look better than the RTW ones .
I'm looking forward to getting this Hellenic package done before beginning on the Biblicals .
cheers for now

macsen rufus

10-02-2016, 23:10

I'm glad to say with ProMotion now firmly ensconced in my toolbox I'm going through some of the less appealing unit icons and doing some new ones, and I've also been sourcing some new info pics, too. I think I have all the big stuff done, and I'm tidying up the scruffy corners now.

Looking forward to getting the new BIFs integrated into the mix :2thumbsup:

dimitrios the samian

10-11-2016, 07:40

: UPDATE :

I'm a few days early in my bi-monthly update , but I couldn't wait any longer !
I have completed all the most important aspects of my new Slingers & Staff Slingers .
All 4 angles are complete with their 12 frames all fluid & in aspect !!! :2thumbsup:
It was looking bleak a few weeks ago , but I soldiered thru .
What I have found is I have a side project on the go & reward myself with little patches of creation , but always going back to work the majority of my time on my main project .
I still need to skin up these guys & i'll release them along with the Hellenic Archer/Peltast .
I should have them done before the end of this month .....
cheers

dimitrios the samian

10-11-2016, 07:43

...... the variety of spear/pike units available to the Ptolemies..... In order, they are: Nubian spearmen, pezhetairoi, enomotia ekdromon, hypaspists, aethiopioi epilektoi, machimoi spearmen, pantodapoi and thureophoroi.

wow ! I'm Greek & I will have too google all the different units .
If you get time Mac , do a new Faction Preview for the Ptolemies :bow:

dimitrios the samian

10-27-2016, 01:46

: UPDATE :

Hellenic Bif ( Akondistes & Archers ) almost done ...... :2thumbsup:
Keep an eye on yr mailbox mac , clould be over the weekend or at the latest early next week .
They look much much better than my Beta Version that appeared on EE 0.9 & if the original HTW Artist could see them I'm sure he would be drooling also .:laugh4:

: SNEAK PREVIEW :

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With all this work I've done on these guys , my mind kept drifting of to the Thracians & how we need a genuine Peltast .
I doodled up these rather quickly ....
Just some heavy erasing back into the transparent green , then cutting & pasting .
Maybe some time in 2017 ! ....... if my enthusiasm doesn't wane .
cheers

dimitrios the samian

11-22-2016, 04:51

]: UPDATE :
[/SIZE]
Peltasts done !
I have had very little time these past few months but I still managed to finish of this basic bif the Peltasts .
What needs doing now is just drawing in the quiver & sword holder on his waist .
It will take quite a few hours as there are 22x12 to do ~:) ...264 off in total .
I should have them ready I hope by Xmas or early New Year & if the weather gets very hot perhaps sooner
( as more spare time is available during A/C times~D )
cheers

pssss ... mac , sorry I told you to keep an eye on yr mailbox , my timing was way out ~:cool:

macsen rufus

11-23-2016, 20:09

We're hitting the heating season here, now ... again more spare time (in between shifts at work...)

Re quivers etc - can you keep two copies of these - one with quivers and one without - because some units from this BIF are not missile units :bow: All being well I'll be able to combine them into a single oversize BIF later.

dimitrios the samian

11-24-2016, 11:24

Re quivers etc - can you keep two copies of....................... already have ~;)
All being well I'll be able to combine them into a single oversize BIF later.......... all advanced on that aspect too ~;)

See .....
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YanBG

12-08-2016, 14:58

macsen rufus

12-09-2016, 13:07

1923719238

I didn't find a free roman helmet so i edited mine and it looks generic but that might be a good thing because you can use the figure for other factions too? Let me know if you don't like it, also your opinion about the feather, sandals, mail etc.

Which shoulder guard color do you prefer, green or iron?

Edit: About the throwing, the vanilla figures(Peasant, ChHlm) use their sword(slashing) animation, do you want something different, like upper hand throw?

For how many actions do you have space? Does the bow requite walking/running with it?

Wow YanBG, that was fast :2thumbsup: And it looks just the job - feather, mail and sandals are good as they are. The shoulder guards should remain as mail, imho, as that would be closest to the original armour.

If we use an oversize BIF plate we have more than enough space, so if you could include walk and run animations with the bow, too, that would be icing on the cake. For the javelin/pilum throw I'm happy to go with whatever you think looks best, now I know how to place items with BIFreader and don't have to rely on pre-exisitng co-ordinates :bow:

That's excellent work, thanks so much

macsen rufus

12-09-2016, 13:07

dimitrios the samian

12-09-2016, 13:37

Awesome work Yan ....... so quick , well proportioned & cleanly drawn .
Im with Mac , shoulders as mail , but I would darken the sandals to black or very dark brown
I look forward to them , in the Roman Wars Mod .
cheers

YanBG

12-09-2016, 15:08

https://i.imgur.com/n9r75XL.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/x70QQhk.gif

These are the old animations. First is the throw/sword(changing it probably won't make much difference) and second is the spear, maybe it will fit the pierce attack with sword?

How are you going to add the frames to bifplates, manually? My spritemaker method won't work, because the dimensions are bigger, 119x119(the feather) and there is a lot of empty space that i can't crop(it would mess the origins).

Edit: You said that larger bifs are possible, what size? The frames can fit in 952x714:

https://i.imgur.com/WyZSTyr.png

11 actions(7+4 bow), 44 frames per spritesheet, whooping 528 in total.

I can help you with the bifplates if this size work for you and there is enough space for the shields&weapons.

macsen rufus

12-09-2016, 20:46

Hi YanBG,

That looks great! I'm sure I can rejig the spacing for the final BIF, but I'll have to get back to you later, as I'm off to work soon.

The spear animation looks good for the sword thrust as it would fit the traditional 1-2 attack of banging with the shield then slipping the sword in - it will take some work with coordinates but I'm sure that would work out for the best Roman fighting animation ever seen in MTW-land :2thumbsup: I think the throw could do with being slightly more 'over arm' if possible at this stage.

Anyway, more over the weekend, gotta run now...

macsen rufus

12-10-2016, 21:27

My saturday shift has been cancelled, so I have an extra day of weekend to play with ~D

Yan - I don't know if it's practical at this stage, but would it be possible to give the archers quivers on their backs? The image here (http://www.caerleon.net/empire/img21.jpg) shows how they were worn.

About putting the BIF together - I think the best thing is to use your usual technique at whatever size it comes out as. Then I can extract the frames as BMPs, make a multi-layer image in Photoshop and cut down the blank spaces then redefine the action rectangle co-ordinates all the way through the layers. Then I have a cunning plan to realise curved shields for the legionaries to get around the usual MTW limitation of flat shields. With a few extra shields and weapons, there is also a lot of scope here for various auxiliaries, so this is getting to be a really exciting BIF :2thumbsup:.

YanBG

12-11-2016, 01:15

Quiver is possible, render time is negligible, do you want death animation for the archer? Also is the throw change still on the list?

About putting the BIF together - I think the best thing is to use your usual technique at whatever size it comes out as.

Do you mean a spritesheet? Because originally i render in separate png frames. With a bit difficult to understand naming convention: all frames that are in the same bifplate start with the same number(it's not by animation), so you have 44 frames whose name start with 0 at the top of the folder. It's easier to select/import them all at once.

macsen rufus

12-11-2016, 06:11

Hi Yan,

Thanks for the reply - I don't think there's any need for a separate death cycle for the archers, it's too fleeting an event to be worth the time and the plate-space. The throwing action would be very nice :yes:

Do you mean a spritesheet?

Er, I don't really know - I've never been through the process from a 3d model before, so have no idea what's involved going that route, or the terminology ~D

On reflection, I think it would be best to have the individual files, thinking of how to compile the plates - that should make it pretty straightforward (if somewhat repetitive) to align the actions through all 12 frames.

dimitrios the samian

12-11-2016, 06:23

Hello Guys ......

Amazing Yan !!
The Software & technique that you use is a godsend :bow:,
I'm actually doing quivers at present & its pixel by pixel :dizzy2::laugh4:

Ok onto my thoughts .......
I agree the spear animation is brilliantly suitable for the sword "bang & stab"
& I concur it will be best in MTW for certain .

I also agree again with Macsen re: The throw .....
It definitely needs to be higher/overhead or 'over arm' it is actually just a bit to low ...

Re: Quivers , Mac I'm glad you mentioned them !! :yes: ......

Yan , Im pleased you say quivers are "negligible" .
Having already seen your first piece of work back months ago :2thumbsup: & just only moments ago checked these Romans.
I point out the following .

Quivers are needed on

Walk2 ...............................Obvoiusly
Run2......................................" "
Stand2....................................." "
Shoot......................................." "

But are also needed on ....

Charge ........................... Charging holding his sword .... with quiver visible, so is clearly an Archer .
Attack 1 or 2 ? ................. As above , easily identified as just an archer in Melee with sword fighting .

I also recommend "if possible making" the quivers be full with bows .
I managed this by hand drawing single pixel lines/strokes .....( if its not possible to render its ok )

.......................

Yan > About those death Animations .... I agree with Mac , no need for new ones .

Macsen ....
I know it is a daunting task of porting these over into the 640x640 Bif Plates .....
but I'm confident the method you suggested above to Yan will work :2thumbsup: .........
( I can help if you get stuck ) but you should be fine :yes:

.... I have already had a quick look & I'm confident both Archer & Hastati should fit tightly but nicely into a 640x640 plate with room for shields & weapons .

I can draught up a jpeg picture of a 640Bif Plate with notes & explanation to show .

Ok I gotta go , Photoshop awaits for a few hrs.

To you both , this is exciting !!
cheers guys .

dimitrios the samian

12-11-2016, 14:27

Ok ....

Here it is roughly done up on Photoshop .
Roman png opened at full size & then cut & pasted over into the 640 bmp ...... ( so never mind the colour being out )
This is one possible design/layout for your consideration macsen ......

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The Archer takes top 3 Rows .

>> TOP ROW - Walk x4 - Runx4 , Stand x2 (3 may fit)
>> 2nd ROW - 1 or 2 Stand - Chargex4 - Attacksx3
>> 3rd ROW - 1xAttack - Die 2 min - 4xShoot

The main Roman takes rows 4 & 5

>>ROW 4 -
Walk x4 - Run x4 - Stand x4 ........ these should ? fit across comfortably being narrower than the archer .

>> ROW 5 -
Charge x4 - Attack x4 ........................... should have spare pixels .

..........................

** Mac , the Pilum throw I believe will come from the the Charge at bottom ?
So I've drawn in the jav to illustrate it .... it should work well enough .

** LOOKING at the BIF TOp to BOTTOM **

We will have to reduce the height from 119 to 115 .....

Why ?
So we can get enough/more space for shields & weapons .

Some quick calcs 115x5 = 575 Leaving approx. 65 pixels ....

Mac , perhaps the Archer can do without a feather ? ...............if yes "problem solved"
If feather is required on Archer , we can clip 1 px from top & 3 from the shadows on base .

So a strip 65x640 for shields & weapons will be sufficient .......
That is if shields can be placed on their sides instead of upright ?

YanBG

12-11-2016, 17:46

Ok Macsen, individual files it is then(i won't have to combine them in plates, that you'll need to redo anyway ~D).

Hello and thank you Dimitrios!

Looking at BOWMAN, you are right he has 7 actions, 3 of them without the bow(dying, fighting, charging). As you know i rendered the 4 others with the bow as unique, but i didn't make charge because i figured that you can reuse the swordsman's one. The quiver addition would make that harder, we might need a fighting with quiver too?

Btw i thought about the quiver before, but ChHlBow doesn't have one. He dies with the bow in hand though, so there are some discrepancies(diversity) between the archers in the vanilla game.

dimitrios the samian

12-11-2016, 21:48

Hello Yan

Great work once again.

Ok , Yes do a set with quivers for both fightings and charge also ........ (and ofcourse a set without )
This way we have all options covered.......

Yan , its good you made 2 sets of fighting animations , despite code only allows 1 can be used....( great for choice now and future mac Aux ptions)

About vanilla Bowman ......never did correctly .
The new bigger plates give us more space so more realism can be acheived .
All Bowman can do with these graphical improvements ive outlined .

Its just great timing all this !! ,......
As my vision for the Hellenic Archers gave me these ideas months ago & here we will see them on the battlefield !!
Great work guys , lets do this.....2017 is exciting !
Cheers

macsen rufus

12-12-2016, 02:05

Evening all,

Just back from thr pub so please forgive any spelling errors ~D

Gneral thought: don't really need any quivers in plates without bows: let's face it, if your sagis are fighting, you've got other things on your mind... and we want to make the most use of the BIF space and extra space for shields results in morre unit variety than extra details on sagis in melee. And the larger the final BIF plate becomes, the les reolution we getb on the battlefield.

YanBG

12-12-2016, 02:56

I haven't thought that bifs larger than 512x512 lose quality. CA's HlPlArHm has 10 actions, but there are no shields and i think 11 is the lowest we can go.

Which attack the sagis will use, slash or pierce? The updated throw probably won't fit for melee(i guess that's why CA didn't add separate animation).

Btw we should test the palette convertion and if the player colors show properly in game, i had some issues last time.

dimitrios the samian

12-12-2016, 03:10

No problems mac , this ones in your court .

But imagine how nicer it would be if the Archers did have their own charge and fight rectangles with quiver ....

But its ok , I figure that in the heat of the battle those in the idle/stand position nearby/behind will be visible , thus sufficient enough to differientiate them.

Anyway i just hope it al works on the 640's ... eg no resolution problems or other unforseens .
& I'll save myself time also on my Hellenics too .

So for the sake of resolution and more sheild variety , no quiver on charge or fight .

Onwards we go guys .
Cheers

macsen rufus

12-12-2016, 20:09

I haven't thought that bifs larger than 512x512 lose quality. CA's HlPlArHm has 10 actions, but there are no shields and i think 11 is the lowest we can go.

Oversized BIFs will lose a certain amount of quality because they are rendered as if they were normal size, and need to be rescaled in the unit_prod to restore them to the same size as other units in battle. I can't really quantify the effect but there is bound to be some.

As for the number of actions, it doesn't matter in the slightest - the BIF plates are purely images, and the actions page files define where the engine looks to find them - that's why more than one unit can be placed on the sheet, using different images. The individual units' actions will be limited by what can be defined in the actions pages, but this doesn't limit what can go in the BIF.

Which attack the sagis will use, slash or pierce? The updated throw probably won't fit for melee(i guess that's why CA didn't add separate animation).

Ah, knew I'd overlooked something ~D The sagis don't have shields, so the pierce animation may look a bit odd due to the 'front' hand. perhaps better include the 'slash' action after all :bow:

Btw we should test the palette convertion and if the player colors show properly in game, i had some issues last time.

I have a suitable palette, so will give it a shot soon...

EDIT: seems ok - no visible problems:

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YanBG

12-12-2016, 23:00

I added the quiver and was able to reduce the width of the files, they now easily fit into 720x720.

macsen rufus

12-15-2016, 09:03

Thanks for that Yan - I've downloaded the RAR and have a plan of action for building up the BIF from the files. Just need to clear some calendar- and head-space to get it done, now. I'm really looking forward to getting some properly-attired Romans out in the field :2thumbsup:

I think I'm on top of the naming conventions, but I'll know for sure once I start building up layers in Photoshop...

YanBG

12-15-2016, 16:13

Great! Let me know, if you have any questions.

I'm not sure what is your method of importing them to photoshop, but i was thinking if it can automatically place them on a grid and i found this spritesheet generator: http://www.johnwordsworth.com/projects/photoshop-sprite-sheet-generator-script/

I haven't tested it and i don't know if it will be of any use but you can keep us updated on the process. It's interesting to read your findings :)

macsen rufus

12-16-2016, 20:43

Evening all,

I have a few minutes for a quick drive-by post ~D

First I have to confirm PS does what I think it does with the 'Use all layers' function, but assuming it does, I'll compile each action/view into its 12 frames then each of the 44 separate 12-frame cycles can be cropped to their absolute minumum rectangle. The individual sizes will then be the basis for setting the actionspage co-ordinates as I juggle them all into a single 12-layer image. I reckon there's probably enough empty space to be able to bring it down to a 640x640, if not then it will have to go to 768x768, leaving loads of room for accessories. In short I'll be compiling it 'vertically' so the spritesheet route wouldn't be appropriate.

Anyway, my Saturday shift has been cancelled again this week, so I have a fairly clear weekend to play with it :2thumbsup:

dimitrios the samian

12-17-2016, 09:44

Hello Mac ..

Play with it & remember ... if Jupiter calls go on the warpath .
Divertion can help keep yr mind fresh ~:) .... as I can imagine the task ahead will take quite a bit of time .

I reckon they will fit easily into the 640's .... even with the huge backswing on the bow's rectangles ....

..... so if the deciding factor is miniscule between a 640 or 768 ,
Let me know & I can share my thoughts .
eg , say if we need a few pixels less width per rectangle over the bmp's size ,
we can snip a bit of the bows backend & do it , to make them fit them into a 640 instead of the larger .

Anyway , I'm busy also currently drawing bows & quivers into the HTW bmp's , which don't swing much at all compared to vanilla .

Enjoy yr weekend.
cheers

macsen rufus

12-19-2016, 10:13

The BIF is coming together, and it looks like a comfortable fit on to a 640x640 (though maybe I shouldn't tempt fate by saying so ...)

However, I couldn't do what I'd hoped I could so it's taking a little longer than anticipated. Progress so far:

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dimitrios the samian

12-19-2016, 10:21

thanks yan

YanBG

12-19-2016, 16:35

I couldn't do what I'd hoped

What is that?

Looks good so far. 5 more actions left(dying, both walk).

macsen rufus

12-19-2016, 21:11

What is that?

Paste a layered selection directly into layers - I think ProMo can do it, but there's no mutually-compatible layered format between the two programmes, so I stuck with PS. I haven't fully got to grips with editing in proMo yet, just using it for LBMs really...

macsen rufus

12-23-2016, 08:43

I hope to get these chaps up and running over Xmas, but my PC is getting a bit unstable, I think it may be preparing to die... frantically backing up everything. I'd hate to have no PC over the holiday, let alone lose all the RCW data ....

dimitrios the samian

12-23-2016, 08:48

Back it all up mac !
My laptop began to get hotter than usual these past few days , so i put all the bifs & work on a dedicated thumb drive , so i have no mishaps .
Food for thought mac..:yes:

macsen rufus

12-23-2016, 09:02

The problem is that my dedicated thumbdrive seems to be a major element of the instability - so it's going (very sloooowly) on to my Google Drive. I've also cleared up a lot of hard-drive space (too many mods, not enough room for pagefiles!) and defragged it... not sure I'm ready to try the thumbdrive again just yet - it took four attempts to get XP to load today, and I don't want the drive forcing me to do another hard power-down in case it doesn't come back at all next time I reboot.

dimitrios the samian

12-23-2016, 09:10

Then uploading to google is the way to go ....
I'll lihht a stick of incense and send out some positivity so all gets backedup .
Enjoy yr Xmas & yr days of from work .
Cheers

macsen rufus

12-25-2016, 02:48

I seem to have the PC stable again... phew!

And to celebrate, the actions are all compiled and run smoothly in BIFreader :2thumbsup:

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Plenty of room left for weapons and shields, and I'll get on to those soon...

dimitrios the samian

12-25-2016, 23:03

Great news ... On both fronts.

If you can ....post some screenshots , as im interested to see just how much clarity is lost by using the bigger bif plates.

Well done once again .

macsen rufus

12-26-2016, 22:16

Next update:

making progress but still quite a bit to do - got the sagis working, though it shows up some indexing errors on the faction colours:

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dimitrios the samian

12-27-2016, 05:59

They look very nice resolution & clarity wise , considering they are on the 640 Plate & supposedly lower in quality .
Nice work Mac & Yan !!
All the best for the New Year lads ~:cheers:

macsen rufus

12-27-2016, 11:59

A little bit further along - correct palette this time, and with weapons added to the sagis:

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Next job is to sort out the legionaries and some auxilliaries :2thumbsup:

YanBG

12-27-2016, 15:10

Awesome work with the faction colors and weapon positions, the sword fits perfectly in their hands.

Happy hallidays Macsen, Dimitrios and the whole org!

macsen rufus

12-28-2016, 14:41

Got the basics done on the legionaries, just have a few twiddles left to finish off. I'm quite pleased with how the 1-2 attack animation with the shield then sword-thrust has worked out :2thumbsup:

And in the process of all this, I've made a couple of weird discoveries related to placing units in the startpos file. Seems the game can be a bit picky about unit names. First off I tried to give the Populares a couple of units of First Cohort legionaries (Legionary2 in the unit_prod) with a valour bonus....

ie MakeUnit ... Legionary2 160 1 (ie 160 men with 1 kill) >> killed the startpos - not available at main menu

so I removed the valour boost:

MakeUnit ... Legionary2 160 >> startpos loaded, but the unit came out as 2 men with valour 8!

Aha! I thought - even though there's no space in the name, the engine interprets the "2" as a quantity of the basic Legionary unit, so I changed the name of the First Cohort to LegionaryB, instead:

MakeUnit ... LegionaryB 160 >> killed the startpos again!

The game works fine with these units, with the sole exception of putting them in the startpos. Any unit that goes in the startpos cannot have a name that begins with the whole name of another unit. I think I have the fix, but have yet to try it - basically I need to rename the basic legionary unit to LegionaryA, so that LegionaryB no longer contains the whole name of Legionary. I imagine when the startpos file is parsed, it stops as soon as it sees the first valid full name, then anything that comes after is assumed to be the number of men.

EDIT: yep, works fine with LegionaryA, the Populares now get their two experienced units of First Cohort legionaries.

Anyway, enough of that - here's a few screenies of the new legionaries in action:

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