Byzantine Infantry, your opinion ?

[Draksen]

I will try a new Byzantine campaign (early settings) and will play it with ONLY Byzantine Infantry and Cataphracts, just for testing.
The cataphract is now a well known unit, ok...

but what about the Byzantine Infantry ? Do you use them ?

I have read something about their low moral...

thank you for your help and advices.
Best regards,
Draksen

[Inferno]

They're excellent in the early period, but get outclassed in the high period.

But I use them, because they are reasonably strong and very cheap for what they are.

[hoom]

Well, they are much better than spearmen...
Shields, good armour, good attack, large unit size...
Cut through most stuff in early, still plenty useful in (at least the first part of) high. Don't know about after that, because my stupid king didn't put out any heirs till he was 60 something so when he died my campaign was over http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[kataphraktoi]

In my campaigns as the Byzantine Empire I've found the byzantine infantry to be quite useful, the fact that they could beat most units is quite valuable, they can stop the best cavalry available and take quite a bit of punishment.
In the early period they are the best available and quite cheap and value for florins, in the alter periods they take quite a hammering against advanced infantry units, even then they are adequte in the later periods.
As for their low morale, it shouldn't be a worry, if they fight under a general with a few stars watch them perform miracles as their cut the enemy into pieces. I used them quite extensively throughout the campiagn from beginning to end, they combine well with other unique byzantine units.

[kataphraktoi]

In my campaigns as the Byzantine Empire I've found the byzantine infantry to be quite useful, the fact that they could beat most units is quite valuable, they can stop the best cavalry available and take quite a bit of punishment.
In the early period they are the best available and quite cheap and value for florins, in the alter periods they take quite a hammering against advanced infantry units, even then they are adequte in the later periods.
As for their low morale, it shouldn't be a worry, if they fight under a general with a few stars watch them perform miracles as their cut the enemy into pieces. I used them quite extensively throughout the campiagn from beginning to end, they combine well with other unique byzantine units.

[Spetulhu]

I agree, they are useful. Despite the 'low morale' I`ve seldom seen them run away. Besides, an enemy who keeps hammering the Byz Inf just to make them run is leaving your Kat free to ride him down. The fact that they are disciplined has also helped me quite a lot. They won`t rout just because your general dies, so you may still be able to push for a victory by killing the enemy general. Or at least buy time to escape with your most expensive units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kraxis]

Well as soon you build a few Churches and Monestaries the Byz Inf will rule, their Morale gone up.

I have long thought of trying to play a campaign with pure Byzantine units, trying to copy what the Byzantines would have wanted.

5 Byz Inf
5 Trebz
2 Byz cav
2 Kats
2 Pronoiai Allagion

That would be the generic army of my campaign, no other units allowed, not even mercs (only in the very early game where many of the units are unavailable).

[Exile]

I find them to be one of the more versatile units in the game. Particularly since the Byz options are few http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

They are no match for advanced heavy infantry units tho. If you're playing the early period you're fine. In high/late periods I believe the intention for the Byz was that they use mercenaries. While this is historically accurate, it was arguably the reason for their downfall. But then, you're not using mercs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Good Luck.

[SuperTimo]

Byzantine infantry works well during the early period. During Byzantine campaign (early period, normal difficulty) I managed to beat 1100 enemy soldiers with 100 Byz.indantry and 12 naptha throwers. Byz.infantry general had 4 stars. Altough, the enemy (rebels) had only peasants, archers and 160 hobilars and I was on top of a hill in forest and rebels sent their 500 peasants first and then their other troops. I had same kind of battle later, but then I had spearmen instead of Byzantine infantry. My spearmen (200) killed 50 enemies before they routed.

[Basileus]

With a good general this unit kicks ass, it has done preety well in high and late for me.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Advanced heavy infantry units are no trouble under a general with many many many nice shiny stars.....them byzantine heirs apparently had a better military education than the princes of Western Europe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Wish we would do something about the portraits of the princesses........once I spent an entire campaign looking for hot princesses to marry them to me heirs....some were nice some were dogs...woof.

[Lord TangMo]

Then you shall be in big trouble in the desert. Byz Inf get exhaust very fast even in just sitting still waiting for the attack. You might need some other auxiliary units to accommodate them too.

[Spetulhu]

Desert battles are easily won as long as you remember to attack, attack, attack Don`t wait for anything to happen, just press onward and kill the enemy in close combat.

[Lehesu]

Byzy infantry are, IMHO, the best meat-and-potatoes unit. They are well capable of absorbing a lot of damage and they really don't run away as much as their morale hints at. Give them good support and they'll work wonders http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[ShadesWolf]

One question TARRAK old friend ?

What about guard units ?
As far as I am concerned they are also Byzan units.

My army would be

4 Tribs
3 Byzan inf
3 Var Guards
2 Byz cav
2 Kats
2 Pronoiai Allagion

and depending what the battle map was I would chg the Kats for something lighter.

[kataphraktoi]

Quote[/b] ]Then you shall be in big trouble in the desert. Byz Inf get exhaust very fast even in just sitting still waiting for the attack. You might need some other auxiliary units to accommodate them too.

never had trouble with the desert, byz infantry too busy slaughtering filthy camels, filthy futuwwas, filthy ghulams and any filthy flea that comes from the desert to notice that they've ran out of gatorade or shall I say Byzantorade

[ShadesWolf]

What i find cat is they become totally useless and just run.

The byzan Cav and pronia's dont, they fight, but the cats seem to get tired wayearlier than the rest.

Im playing with a typical Byzan army formation, with cav on both flanks (and im talking about on line battles here, in SP I have no such problem)

My entire cav over lap the enenmy and my triz archers attach from the front.

When my Byzant cav have used up all there arrows, my usual tactics is to attack from the rear, using all my cav, but this takes time, as I wait for ALL arrows to run about before charging, and usually by then the Cats are fried http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

So by using lighter cav, they seem to last a little longer.

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Jan. 03 2003,05:05)]
Quote[/b] ]Then you shall be in big trouble in the desert. Byz Inf get exhaust very fast even in just sitting still waiting for the attack. You might need some other auxiliary units to accommodate them too.

never had trouble with the desert, byz infantry too busy slaughtering filthy camels, filthy futuwwas, filthy ghulams and any filthy flea that comes from the desert to notice that they've ran out of gatorade or shall I say Byzantorade
Well,the fact is that camels will tear apart Kats(especially those camel warriors) in the desert,and I believe they can do that in non-desert maps aswell.
Playing thy Turks(early) I realized that camels can be a life-saver when those pesky byz invade my desert regions with lots of Kats.
Oh,and about byz inf,their melee(attack) and numbers is what makes'em so good,and at a low price...hey,does any1 know an early turkish unit to put up a decent fight against the byz inf...coz things are gettin tough on expert.
I've won a few battles against a quite large byz inf force by charging Armenian Heavy Cavalry in 2 their backs...any other suggestions??

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ Jan. 03 2003,00:43)]One question TARRAK old friend ?

What about guard units ?
As far as I am concerned they are also Byzan units.

My army would be

4 Tribs
3 Byzan inf
3 Var Guards
2 Byz cav
2 Kats
2 Pronoiai Allagion
Yes, Guards are left out of the equation. Don't know why, it can't be an early army as I have Pronoiai Allagion too.

I think I would take one Treb and one Byz Inf and replace with Guards.

I'm so set for my legion tactic for the Byz that I need the numbers of the Byz Inf. I can't change too many of them with Gaurds. And also I'm talking out of basic monetary issues.

In MP Kats are simply too slow to be worth much, Khwarazmian cav is much better. In SP they are perfect for charging out through you own ranks when melee has ensued. They are too slow and tire too fast for flanking, there you have the perfect combination of Pronoiai Allagion and Byz Cav.

[kataphraktoi]

Funny had a problem in the desert regions before and thats using the basic formation.

Here is basic formation that has won many a battle under the sun consisting of these three starter units

BI = BYZANTINE INF
K = KATAPH
TA = TREBIZ ARCH

BI BI BI BI BI
KK TA TA TA TA KK

as you can see a simple formation but the victory is based on timing:

kats don't charge till all the enemy units are engaged

the byz infantry hold up the enemy units trying to break through

the trebs fire a deadly rain against the enemy center eventually demoralising the enemy

then the kats charge (while the battle is raging the kats are slowly and discreetly placed on the rear flank of the turks

Al;ways works for me, the turks are still tough bastards though their ability to raise a large army quickly really annoys me. I keep slaughtering them in one battle and another one pops again....arrgh

With Kats the timing must be right, you've also have to use them under a general with several stars(there are plenty of generals with loads of stars when u play the byzantines) to exploit their potential power. I've slaughtered many royal knights in the late period when I sent my kats in head on confrontation simply because a few stars and timing were just right.

People seem to treat Kats like knights but they're not like knights - don't expect them to go fast if you'll do the Kats are nothing but a pile of metal.

With the camels there have been battles where the accolades were equally shared between the camels and the Kats but once again timing and a general's stars make the Kats bloody fearsome.

Those Armenian heavy cavalry are a real enigma sometimes they're invincible and sometimes they get torn up like paper.