Internet Conspiracies becoming Mainstream

[HopAlongBunny]

Default Re: PizzaGate

Just so the next topic is not Loose Change, I am locking this until there is a credible source.

Actual crime at Cosmic Ping Pong!

http://wonkette.com/609076/citizen-shoots-up-dc-pizza-place-to-investigate-hillary-clintons-child-sex-ring-as-one-does

[Hooahguy]

I suppose this is the political reality we live in and have to get used to. Ridiculous conspiracy theories becoming too close to mainstream and causing :daisy: like this to happen. Not that its really anything new. Its just more visible I suppose.

[Greyblades]

Less than intelligent man cant wait for trump to get in office to starts investigations properly so goes and gets himself arrested while scaring the bejeezus out of customers and staff of pizzerea, simultaniously tainting the concept of a possible paedophile ring to the general public with the veneer of crazy.

This is annoying because it's not as much of a ridiculous conspiracy theory than Hooahguy says; the Podestas are into some freaky stuff such as hanging borderline bondage art of preteen girls in their home not to mention the spirit cooking stuff.

All of this being exacerbated by really questionable events such as an email saying "old gang" would meet at a farm with a guarantee of three girls, aged 11, 9, and 7 would be there in a pool for "entertainment". The Pizza thing comes in with another email where Podesta's friends apparantly spent $65K in one night on "pizza" with some really bizzare deliberation over what they want to get.

[Beskar]

This is annoying because it's not as much of a ridiculous conspiracy theory than Hooahguy says;

That is not what he said...
But from your reply, I presume you are a follower of the Conspiracy theory.

Here is a summary of the PizzaGate saga by the BBC
www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-38156985

[rory_20_uk]

Although this seems very far fetched, some things that eventually became reality were equally, if not more far fetched - be that the Snowdon materials or historic cases of abuse in the UK where we are doing the traditional sort of enquiry that keeps on going on until everyone involved is dead.

~:smoking:

[Fisherking]

I find it quit interesting that any thing termed a conspiracy automatically acquires theory at its end when it reaches public discourse.

Pizzagate came into the public’s view from hacked emails and so far as I know it is still a part of a real federal investigation. That investigation may or may not become known, dependant on what is found and the power and influence of those involved.

That a crazy became involved, because of internet investigators was inevitable.

Most of these “so called” Conspiracy Theories only arise because some people actually READ documents, books, or other information put out by the actual people or organisations implicated in the conspiracies and watch it as it becomes public policy or is acted upon by the groups or government.

Once someone brings it to the public it either becomes a victim of a misinformation campaign or wild speculation. Very few are made up out of whole cloth.

Easy example: The Trilateral Commission, in their original mission statement, they said they were working to bring about a New World Economic Order. When George H.W. Bush & Bill Clinton (members or former members of the Trilateral Commission) started making speeches about the New World Order people began to investigate in order to see what they stood for and to scrutinise its membership. The group’s own publications have lead to almost every “Conspiracy Theory” that is out there and that everyone finds so outrageous, with the possible exceptions of Alien Invasions and the Bavarian Illuminati.

When someone says Globalists are working to bring about a global fascist state, it brings you back to David Rockefeller, The Trilateral Commission, and all the other organisations he is the founder, or long time high ranking member of.

Naturally there is much that is only speculation or down right misinformation but at least you could know enough that when groups or organisations are viewed with suspicion, that this is the why and the wherefore of it all.

Of course they don’t use the word fascist anywhere but the political philosophy alone leads one to that conclusion.

[Husar]

As a Stalinist, I'm obviously on the fence when it comes to allegations of rich people doing criminal things.

[Greyblades]

That is not what he said...
But from your reply, I presume you are a follower of the Conspiracy theory.

Here is a summary of the PizzaGate saga by the BBC
www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-38156985

It is exactly what he said: "Ridiculous conspiracy theories becoming too close to mainstream"

With the use of the word "mainstream" not "reality", unless it was a typo, hooahguy said ridiculous conspiracy theories that become widely known about, not proven to not be ridiculous.

And yes I am a follower of the conspiracy in that I have read through it and find reason to suspect some awful things have been happening behind the scenes in the Clinton campaign, whether this resteraunt has anything to do with it is a minor detail and something the feds should be looking into not the denizens of reddit or this gun toting imbecile.

[edyzmedieval]

Just a couple of words for this - beyond worrying. When facts are all of a sudden irrelevant, we have a huge problem on our hands.

[Beskar]

I found the BBC Article helpful in explaining why LeftEyeNine was taken up with this conspiracy, I was wondering why he was the one to bring it up. Turns out, it was used as a propaganda stunt by Erdogan to try to obscure domestic issues and abuse.

Child Abuse in the UK is taken very seriously. With the Jimmy Saville investigations, and the current high-profile Fifa investigation with Football coaches grooming young footballers. Such "In your face" conspiracy would be investigated and dealt with swiftly by authorities. In fact, authorities would have looked after the Reddit material themselves, because it is in their interest to do so. If there was anything behind it, it would be dealt with.

Even in the US, they were investigating Anthony Weiner due to Sexting minors. It was his Laptop which was seized and investigated, which led to an potential reopening of the Clinton case by the FBI Director before the end of the election which cost Clinton the presidency. I am pretty sure if there was smoke, they would be all over it.


With the use of the word "mainstream" not "reality", unless it was a typo, hooahguy said ridiculous conspiracy theories that become widely known about, not proven to not be ridiculous.

It is clear from intent, that Hooahguy was is expressing disapproval over the fact 'ridiculous conspiracy theories' are becoming closer to 'mainstream', in terms of popularity and spread. He further attributes this spread in causing :daisy: to happen. He is not advocating or supporting it in any shape or form.

[Greyblades]

It is linked to a dismissal word, "ridicule-ous" as in "worthy of ridicule", through its use his opinion is clearly stated, as is yours.

As for its spread as a turkish ploy, that is a poor reason to dismiss it. Pizzagate came from internet denisens extrapolating information gathered from the podesta emails. That it became mainstream from the actions of Turkey is ultimately irrelevant to it's veracity.

As for the lack of investigation I think you are woefully underestimating the ammount of collusion with hillary that infested the obama administration

[HopAlongBunny]

It seems pretty clear (to me) that it's a fabrication.
Most of the threads are false, the few facts amount to bupkiss and the conclusions are delusional.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/06/pizzagate-is-the-satanic-panic-of-our-age-but-this-time-the-president-s-men-believe-it.html

[Greyblades]

It's not usually me doing this but first the wonkett and now thedailybeast, have you considered that your primary sources might be a tad biased Bunny?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So is this the thread wherein I claim to be the son of D.B. Cooper?

[HopAlongBunny]

Another biased account:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/technology/fact-check-this-pizzeria-is-not-a-child-trafficking-site.html?_r=0

As for the police; when not calling the "story" pure fiction will neither confirm or deny any on going investigation.

[Kralizec]

It's not usually me doing this but first the wonkett and now thedailybeast, have you considered that your primary sources might be a tad biased Bunny?

Haha, nice try. A video you posted in the POTUS thread about another Hillary "scandal" was created by a notorious fraud who tried to illegally wiretap a senator's office (he pleaded guilty for that, btw). You responded with something along the lines of,That doesn't invalidate his message. Prove him wrong!

You are gifted with amazingly poor self reflection.

[CrossLOPER]

So everyone is now suffering from schizophrenia?

[Greyblades]

The new york times is better but not by much. apparently working through esp cecelia kang says that "None of it was true. While Mr. Alefantis has some prominent Democratic friends in Washington and was a supporter of Mrs. Clinton, he has never met her, does not sell or abuse children, and is not being investigated by law enforcement for any of these claims."
Only the last of those claims can be verified without a proper investigation which they admit hasnt happened and thanks to our loonie private eye and the now widespread posse of overexicited redditors, that probably wont happen.

Krazelic, legitimate video footage of a confession to corruption being on a questionable youtube account to is not made less real by the associon whereas the authority of a pundit's blatantly biased accout of an event is somewhat exaserbated by being on a glorified partisan blog.

This need you have for me to explain the nuamces between hard evidence and punditry in every thread is getting as tiresome as the constant attempts at threading together the facsimile of a gotcha moment from past posts.

So everyone is now suffering from schizophrenia?

On this board? I have no comment but the booze pixy who lives in my ear would like it to be widely known that he has none and never has had any affiliation with the danish flower yakuza or their equine affiliates.

[Kralizec]

legitimate video footage.

Er, no.


of a confession to corruption

Again, no.

http://time.com/4545543/hillary-clinton-donald-duck-trump-veritas/


...the campaign denied any wrongdoing, and independent campaign finance experts say that even if the events in the video happened as portrayed, they don’t support the claim that the Clinton campaign did anything illegal.

I'll happily accept this because I'm not an American lawyer, let alone an expert on campaign finance law.

No doubt you know of American legal specialists who disagree and can post a source...in video format :rolleyes:

[Montmorency]

The "hard evidence" Greyblades speaks of is on par with the hard evidence demonstrating the godliness of the DPRK's Supreme Leader.

[Pannonian]

Er, no.



Again, no.

http://time.com/4545543/hillary-clinton-donald-duck-trump-veritas/



I'll happily accept this because I'm not an American lawyer, let alone an expert on campaign finance law.

No doubt you know of American legal specialists who disagree and can post a source...in video format :rolleyes:


Not a good sign when you need videos to make your point.


They say that man is the only animal that is self aware. They were wrong. Not all men are.

[CrossLOPER]

They say that man is the only animal that is self aware. They were wrong. Not all men are.

Get on the post-truth train, Senpai!

For this point forward, nothing you do, say, or think means anything.

The yellow remainder went on horse blocks computer and candles. Trees are speaking Latin and phoned the monkey. I am a grey spider.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So everyone is now suffering from schizophrenia?

Of course. We are all capable of thinking George the fifth of scotch tape tape where are the 18-and-a-half minutes mr. Nixon?

[Beskar]

Thanks for the links Bunny.


Off-topic: I would like to point out that schizophrenia isn't typically marked by such vivid instances of audio and visual psychosis, but more the heavy paranoia and delusions. This may manifesto in the more severe cases like the aliens/government conducting surveillance through the power supply, so they remove plug-sockets and even light bulbs. However, it is typically with paranoia around neighbours talking about them/recording them, or being followed when walking down the street. Unfortunately, the actions of the person can cause them to attract the interest of others, creating a fulfilling prophecy in some regards.

[Greyblades]

Again, no.

http://time.com/4545543/hillary-clinton-donald-duck-trump-veritas/

I'll happily accept this because I'm not an American lawyer, let alone an expert on campaign finance law.

No doubt you know of American legal specialists who disagree and can post a source...in video format

And like that I find I cannot give a reason for why I keep wasting my time with people who take the word of the perpitrator professing innocence as proof.

Booze pixie is very dissapointed in you incandescant frog nails.

[Husar]

And like that I find I cannot give a reason for why I keep wasting my time with people who take the word of the perpitrator professing innocence as proof.

But does he? From his link:


Federal campaign finance law prohibits political campaigning from coordinating on expenditures with outside groups that involve paid media communications. That means that the Clinton campaign and the super PAC supporting Clinton’s bid, Priorities USA Action, cannot write advertisements together, for example, or share data in order to decide what market to place an advertisement in.

It is legal, however to coordinate on other forms of communication, including certain types of messaging, and to contract work to third parties. The Donald Duck activists likely do not qualify under federal law as public communications, which is defined as including television or newspaper advertising, or mass mailings.

“The video makes the allegation that this satisfies the definition of coordinated communication,” said Brendan Fischer, associate counsel at the Campaign Legal Center. But “it’s not at all a clear that the person dressed up as a duck is engaged in public political advertising, or is the sort of conduct envisioned by the [Federal Election Commission] regulations.”

The first two paragraphs contain explanations by Time about how the laws work, the last one a statement on the case by who I assume is an expert of the CLC, an organization that was founded by someone who worked on the McCain Campaign in 2008 according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_Legal_Center).
Can you explain how this is based only on the "word of the perpetrator"?

[Greyblades]

The expert quibbles over a matter of definition in a law of which he himself does not have enough confidence in to say it makes the campaign innocent.

This does not contribute actual capital to the claim of innocence that is coming from Clinton's campaign making Krazelic's attempt to use this article as proof that the veritas videos do not count as not hard evidence look like blind faith in the honesty of a dishonest perp.

Now are we going to actually get back on track or are we going to waste the time of yet another thread on krazelic and pannonian's pointless distractions?

[Husar]

The expert quibbles over a matter of definition in a law which lawyers could spend decades arguing over the validity, this does not contribute actual capital to the claim of innocence that is coming from Clinton's campaign, making Krazelic's attempt to use as proof that the veritas videos do not count as not hard evidence look like blind faith in the honesty of a dishonest source.

Hard evidence for what? If you're not interested in definitions of law, then we could just as well make the argument that the laws are stupid in the first place, so what's the problem? The ducks were funny, end of story.

Let's move on indeed.

[Greyblades]

Ah, just couldnt restrain yourself for more than one post, hm.

Back on track, the shooter Edgar Maddison Welch spent some time acting (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2625901/) sparking some speculation that he is a "crisis actor" such as the slew that reported a number of fake claims of violence in the wake of Trump's election, though Heavy.com's (http://heavy.com/news/2016/12/edgar-maddison-welch-comet-pizza-pizzagate-washington-dc-gunman-suspect-photos-pictures-facebook-conspiracy-north-carolina/) account of his prior work as "elected President of the North Carolina Crime Stoppers Association (two terms). Served as Executive Director for Protect-A-Child, a national, non-profit organization to prevent abuse and abduction of children. Appointed by Governor Jim Martin to the Governor’s Commission on Child Victimization.” indicates a more honest motiviation. Note I couldnt find the source on those appointments.

More interestingly he has a criminal record; driving under the influence in 2013 (http://bustednewspaper.com/welch-edgar-maddison-1180-ketchie-rd-mount-ulla-nc-28125-dui-dwi-04-06-2013/) and more recently this october he running down a 13 year old (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/12/04/pizzagate_gunman_edgar_maddison_welch_ran_over_a_teenager_with_his_car.html) in his car, apparantly intentionally as a witness says he "had the whole road to turn into even the whole other lane, even in the same lane he could have avoided him."

[CrossLOPER]

Now are we going to actually get back on track or are we going to waste the time of yet another thread on krazelic and pannonian's pointless distractions?
Life is a pointless distraction.

[HopAlongBunny]

I think Colbert (via Wonkette here) has the perfect summation:

http://wonkette.com/609228/stephen-colbert-tells-alex-jones-wikileaks-and-reddit-internet-trolls-where-to-shove-it

[Greyblades]

“Where’d this conspiracy theory start? Apparently some ‘alt-right’ folks were combing through Clinton campaign emails hacked by Russia and published by Wikileaks, and noticed there seems to be more references to pizza and pizzerias than they expected, which can only mean one thing: SECRET SEX RING.”

Comedian chastises people for beleiving in conspiracies while quoting the russian hackers theory as if true.

[Husar]

Comedian chastises people for beleiving in conspiracies while quoting the russian hackers theory as if true.

So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/10/505072304/cia-concludes-russian-interference-aimed-to-elect-trump


"Intelligence agencies have identified individuals with connections to the Russian government who provided WikiLeaks with thousands of hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and others, including Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman, according to U.S. officials," the Post reports. "Those officials described the individuals as actors known to the intelligence community and part of a wider Russian operation to boost Trump and hurt Clinton's chances."

[Pannonian]

So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/10/505072304/cia-concludes-russian-interference-aimed-to-elect-trump

Greyblades would have dismissed rumours about these guys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five) if they'd been on GB's political side.

[Beskar]

I feel GB has fallen into the deep end.

[Greyblades]

So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/10/505072304/cia-concludes-russian-interference-aimed-to-elect-trump


Greyblades would have dismissed rumours about these guys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five) if they'd been on GB's political side.
You either still believe the CIA's claims that there were WMDs in iraq or Pannonian is projecting his habits onto me with the power of a five megaton bomb... No, with all he has said over the past year he'd still be projecting if he did.

There has been no hard evidence for the idea of russian involvement presented to the public and the greatest indicator is the insitance of an organization that once perpetuated the most destructive lie in our generation and has a chip on it's shoulder for the entity it accuses, that makes it but a theory by definition, one with the same degree of foundation as pizzagate.

I feel GB has fallen into the deep end.
I emerged from the deep end you three are still wallowing in and that prevents you from acknowledgeing any degree of moderation, restraint or base sanity on my part.

[Husar]

There has been no hard evidence for the idea of russian involvement presented to the public

What would you consider such hard evidence? The source code of the hacked government databases and the access logs as .txt files? Or maybe a tortured Russian who claims he did it?

I get that the CIA can't always be trusted, but I don't think they can do much with this considering that opinions on Russia are mostly set and they can hardly be aiming for an invasion either. So why would they lie about it considering their future boss is probably not amused about them saying it? They didn't ask for a re-election AFAIK, they merely said it should be considered for future elections.

Maybe you want to explain how one runs a sex trafficking ring out of a nonexistant cellar?

[Fisherking]

So now the CIA and several other US intelligence services start conspiracy theories and secretly tell them to US government officials. Will the US ever recover from having become a banana republic with the Trump election?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/10/505072304/cia-concludes-russian-interference-aimed-to-elect-trump


:laugh4: You think that unlikely do you. The CIA consists of one part that gathers and annualises data but never reveals what it knows or how it knows it. Other parts are dedicated to misinformation, propaganda, and swaying public opinion. They are always ready to interject into politics, foreign or domestic.
to paraphrase a past director; When everything people believe is a lie, we will have done our job.:yes:

[Husar]

:laugh4: You think that unlikely do you. The CIA consists of one part that gathers and annualises data but never reveals what it knows or how it knows it. Other parts are dedicated to misinformation, propaganda, and swaying public opinion. They are always ready to interject into politics, foreign or domestic.
to paraphrase a past director; When everything people believe is a lie, we will have done our job.:yes:

And you think it is unlikely that a nation that fakes its own elections, has ground down all political opposition, silenced all opposing media and is known to have heavily invested in IT education and knowledge would try to influence the elections of a rivalling, stronger nation in favor of a candidate who wants to abandon a lot of allies of the stronger nation which the first nation may want as convenient satellites or new territories?

I really can't see the motive either.
As for misinformation, propaganda and swaying public opinion, ever watched Russia Today?
To be clear, I don't doubt that the USA are an evil empire, that just doesn't make Russia's vest any whiter.

[Pannonian]

And you think it is unlikely that a nation that fakes its own elections, has ground down all political opposition, silenced all opposing media and is known to have heavily invested in IT education and knowledge would try to influence the elections of a rivalling, stronger nation in favor of a candidate who wants to abandon a lot of allies of the stronger nation which the first nation may want as convenient satellites or new territories?

I really can't see the motive either.
As for misinformation, propaganda and swaying public opinion, ever watched Russia Today?
To be clear, I don't doubt that the USA are an evil empire, that just doesn't make Russia's vest any whiter.

You mean those videos starring George Galloway that Greyblades posts?

[Fisherking]

I really can't see the motive either.
As for misinformation, propaganda and swaying public opinion, ever watched Russia Today?
To be clear, I don't doubt that the USA are an evil empire, that just doesn't make Russia's vest any whiter.

I would argue that Russian Propaganda is better propaganda than American Propaganda. Because good propaganda has to build on its elements of truth. That coming from most of the US outlets relies much too much on peoples desire to just believe the big lie told often enough.

Take for instance the Washington Post's recent articles on Fake News. The rely entirely on anonymous sources or shadowy groups as proof of Russian involvement. With no way to vet the information you are forced to either believe them or reject the proposition as unprovable.
It is not to say that Russia would not have cause to seek influence but it just an emotional appeal or appeal to authority at best.

Trust in American Media is at a low ebb. Fake News is also a driving factor behind a move to censor media not in the hands of the Corporate Established Order. There is absolutely no reason to trust them any more than there is reason to trust the Russians.

At this point it is a safer move to give the Russians a pass rather than give government or corporate media the power to filter information content.

[Husar]

At this point it is a safer move to give the Russians a pass rather than give government or corporate media the power to filter information content.

What does giving them a pass mean though? If I don't give them a pass, the same thing will happen than if I don't, nothing.
That was what I meant by lack of motive, people who love Russia will think it is a lie and those who don't can just go on as well.
If the CIA made up such a thing in order to put Russia in a worse position, it seems like a big failure either way.

If your argument is that we should not be vigilant regarding Russian attempts at manipulation of any kind when the next round of European elections come around, I'd say that's a dangerous idea. If you think about it, what happens if Trump withdraws his NATO support for most or all Euro countries and then the EU falls apart with loads of bad blood? We certainly saw what happened in Ukraine when there was internal turmoil. Maybe we'd just say goodbye to the Baltic states or so at first...

[Pannonian]

I would argue that Russian Propaganda is better propaganda than American Propaganda. Because good propaganda has to build on its elements of truth. That coming from most of the US outlets relies much too much on peoples desire to just believe the big lie told often enough.

Take for instance the Washington Post's recent articles on Fake News. The rely entirely on anonymous sources or shadowy groups as proof of Russian involvement. With no way to vet the information you are forced to either believe them or reject the proposition as unprovable.
It is not to say that Russia would not have cause to seek influence but it just an emotional appeal or appeal to authority at best.

Trust in American Media is at a low ebb. Fake News is also a driving factor behind a move to censor media not in the hands of the Corporate Established Order. There is absolutely no reason to trust them any more than there is reason to trust the Russians.

At this point it is a safer move to give the Russians a pass rather than give government or corporate media the power to filter information content.

The US may have had less of a problem with Russian agents in the past due to both geographical distance and political distance, but the Euros have had their experiences. Britain is less leftward-leaning than most European countries, yet we've had our problems, as I've linked above. The kind of evidence that eventually exposed them would probably not pass the muster of the standards you demand, yet history has no doubt that they were indeed Soviet spies.

Never ever trust Russian propaganda more than the messages given by your own outlets. Your media may be misguided, but they won't, as a general rule, deliberately work to harm you. Russian media has that as its basic purpose. If the Russians tell you something unknown, investigate further, but never accept their conclusions. Always ask why they're saying something.

[Fisherking]

The blaming of Russia for the hacked emails is more excuse than anything else. The DNC emails were insider leaks. Pedesta’s emails were the result of him losing his smartphone. Where Russia may play a part is in Hillary’s Private Server. The unsecured server containing highly classified information and the revelations of the Pay for Play. It was hacked several times and not just by one party. If anything should have influenced the election it was Hillary’s own stupidity and obvious lies to cover it up.

The emails were not that critical in deciding the election. Those who were voting for Clinton simply ignored them and called it a Russian Conspiracy without a shred of proof.

Those who were disposed to accept the emails were never disposed to vote for Clinton in the first place. The releases were only a morale factor. The entire election was an exercise in Cognitive Dissonance.

People who voted for Clinton did so because she was not a Republican, despite her baggage.
People who voted for Trump fell into different camps. They voted for him because he was a Republican or they voted for him because he was not seen as part of the establishment.
There were very few voters who were influenced by logic or reason. Even the top two 3rd party candidates were seriously flawed.

The controversy now rests on the deep state trying to regain control of the narrative. Russia is the traditional boogieman. If it were only Anonymous Hackers they lose the moral high ground.

As to my remarks on propaganda, it was only a quality judgment. Propaganda is ubiquitous. Every government, organisation, and corporate interest wants to tell you what to think and none of them want you to exercise critical thinking. Choosing to believe one set of propaganda over another is just lazy and stupid. None of it is in your personal interest. It is far more likely to do harm than good.

Belief is accepting someones word for it. I suggest you put aside belief and try to acquire some actual knowledge about what you are being told and leave emotional factors by the wayside. It is not easy or simple but no one has your interests at heart the way you do.

[Gilrandir]

Belief is accepting someones word for it.

Shall we practice the said approach for the following claims?


Those who were voting for Clinton simply ignored them and called it a Russian Conspiracy without a shred of proof.

Those who were disposed to accept the emails were never disposed to vote for Clinton in the first place. The releases were only a morale factor. The entire election was an exercise in Cognitive Dissonance.

People who voted for Clinton did so because she was not a Republican, despite her baggage.
People who voted for Trump fell into different camps. They voted for him because he was a Republican or they voted for him because he was not seen as part of the establishment.
There were very few voters who were influenced by logic or reason. Even the top two 3rd party candidates were seriously flawed.

[Pannonian]

The blaming of Russia for the hacked emails is more excuse than anything else. The DNC emails were insider leaks. Pedesta’s emails were the result of him losing his smartphone. Where Russia may play a part is in Hillary’s Private Server. The unsecured server containing highly classified information and the revelations of the Pay for Play. It was hacked several times and not just by one party. If anything should have influenced the election it was Hillary’s own stupidity and obvious lies to cover it up.

The emails were not that critical in deciding the election. Those who were voting for Clinton simply ignored them and called it a Russian Conspiracy without a shred of proof.

Those who were disposed to accept the emails were never disposed to vote for Clinton in the first place. The releases were only a morale factor. The entire election was an exercise in Cognitive Dissonance.

People who voted for Clinton did so because she was not a Republican, despite her baggage.
People who voted for Trump fell into different camps. They voted for him because he was a Republican or they voted for him because he was not seen as part of the establishment.
There were very few voters who were influenced by logic or reason. Even the top two 3rd party candidates were seriously flawed.

The controversy now rests on the deep state trying to regain control of the narrative. Russia is the traditional boogieman. If it were only Anonymous Hackers they lose the moral high ground.

As to my remarks on propaganda, it was only a quality judgment. Propaganda is ubiquitous. Every government, organisation, and corporate interest wants to tell you what to think and none of them want you to exercise critical thinking. Choosing to believe one set of propaganda over another is just lazy and stupid. None of it is in your personal interest. It is far more likely to do harm than good.

Belief is accepting someones word for it. I suggest you put aside belief and try to acquire some actual knowledge about what you are being told and leave emotional factors by the wayside. It is not easy or simple but no one has your interests at heart the way you do.

Whatever your own suspicions about your own government, and I suspect that Americans can afford to be blase about the Russian threat as the Soviets never really infiltrated them, I am utterly confident that the Russians have no well meaning for us, having both read up on our secret agencies during WWII and noting that many of the most influential figures were Soviet agents, and having been part of the British Left that has long resisted the infiltration of Russian influence (and ultimately failed). I don't know if my own government means well for me, but I certainly know that the Russians don't.

[Fisherking]

Shall we practice the said approach for the following claims?

You are free to research it for your self and draw your own conclusions.

[Montmorency]

I suggest you put aside belief and try to acquire some actual knowledge about what you are being told and leave emotional factors by the wayside. It is not easy or simple but no one has your interests at heart the way you do.

This approach is unreflective, emollient, and invariably fails itself.

[Fisherking]

This approach is unreflective, emollient, and invariably fails itself.

hum, you seem to be missing something. Try harder. ;)

[Greyblades]

Oh, how badly our mainstays flail when the illusion of consensus crumbles.

In other news the FBI refused to blindly support CIA's conclusions. (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/11/politics/russia-hacking-conclusions-donald-trump/index.html)


The disagreement between some Republicans and Democrats on Russia's intentions in hacking the election rests partially on the lack of agreement between intelligence agencies and the FBI about the conclusiveness of the evidence, officials explained this weekend.

The US intelligence community is increasingly confident that Russian meddling in the American election was intended to steer the election toward Donald Trump, multiple sources have said. That revelation, first reported by CNN a week ago, went beyond the October statement by the 17 intelligence agencies that only said that Russia was seeking to undermine the election, but did not go as far as to say it was to benefit Trump.

The New York Times reported this weekend that part of the reason for the change is that the CIA believes the Russians hacked not only Democratic organizations but Republican groups too, but that they only published documents from Democrats.

The FBI hasn't concluded that the RNC itself was directly breached, a law enforcement official said Sunday. FBI investigators did find that a breach of a third-party entity that held data belonging to the RNC. But the data appears to have been outdated and of little value to the hackers. The FBI also found that some conservative groups and pundits were hacked. The FBI also hasn't found conclusive evidence to show that it was done to help Trump.

"At this point, there appears to have been a combination of motivations," one US law enforcement official said. "They wanted to sow discord and undermine our systems. It's clear not even the Russians thought he would win."

Officials familiar with the briefings given to Congress say the CIA assessment wasn't as definitive as has been portrayed in news reports this weekend. The agency developed new information in recent weeks, based on intelligence sources, which prompted a new assessment of the Russian hack. That assessment "leans" toward the view that the Russians were trying to hurt Clinton and help Trump. But the CIA assessment wasn't definitive, the officials said.

Part of the issue is the nature of the CIA and FBI roles in the investigation. The CIA produces raw intelligence, the FBI moves more slowly to reach conclusions based on the intelligence and other investigative work.

[Montmorency]

hum, you seem to be missing something. Try harder. ;)

If you believe truth can be found by contravening or even ignoring The Authority, then you will satisfy yourself with only the most limited imaginings.

[Fisherking]

If you believe truth can be found by contravening or even ignoring The Authority, then you will satisfy yourself with only the most limited imaginings.

I said knowledge. You assumed Truth. Authority does not equal truth either. It is usually a self justified conclusion by those who assume it.

I am not speaking of seeking eternal truth, just making informed decisions based on the best available information and background knowledge of the subject.

[Montmorency]

I am not speaking of seeking eternal truth, just making informed decisions based on the best available information and background knowledge of the subject.


Alright, let's think about that. How do you evaluate on purely personal grounds that you are making an informed decision, that your information is the best available, or that you are competent to approach it? Moreover, how can you do this in generalized opposition to or mistrust of others and of groups? How do you justify a claim to knowledge in that light?

[Fisherking]

Alright, let's think about that. How do you evaluate on purely personal grounds that you are making an informed decision, that your information is the best available, or that you are competent to approach it? Moreover, how can you do this in generalized opposition to or mistrust of others and of groups? How do you justify a claim to knowledge in that light?

Using classical methods. Logic, reasoning, dialectic, and a good grasp on rhetoric. Consulting primary sources when possible. Research and objective analysis.

[Montmorency]

But that's just a gloze. Taking yourself for granted is no different than taking "propaganda" for granted.

[Fisherking]

But that's just a gloze. Taking yourself for granted is no different than taking "propaganda" for granted.

Certainly questioning others may be a good way to learn but it gives now weight at all to you opinions.

[Montmorency]

Certainly questioning others may be a good way to learn but it gives now weight at all to you opinions.

This is one aspect of my complaint against the notion that one should or can take confidence in their own thought as independent from individuals or institutions - yet I suspect you aren't expressing your agreement.

[Fisherking]

This is one aspect of my complaint against the notion that one should or can take confidence in their own thought as independent from individuals or institutions - yet I suspect you aren't expressing your agreement.

We are rather far off topic but I am aware of your view that everyone is a meat puppet operating on hormones and cosmic rays, or what ever. It seems a convenient excuse to disregard serious thought or contemplation and to excuse ones wrong choices. Whether true or untrue I find it a waste of time and effort.

[Montmorency]

Whether true or untrue I find it a waste of time and effort.

That's not what I was talking about. Whether true or untrue the problem I raised remains on how to avoid undermining your asserted moral autonomy through contradictions.

[Fisherking]

That's not what I was talking about. Whether true or untrue the problem I raised remains on how to avoid undermining your asserted moral autonomy through contradictions.

:laugh4: Moral Philosophy, uh, I was sick that day. I never let it bother me.

[Gilrandir]

Another conspiracy or a genuine concern?
http://csef.ru/en/nauka-i-obshchestvo/499/rassledovanie-das-magazin-kak-big-data-i-para-uchenyh-obespechili-pobedu-trampu-i-brexit-7288
http://mashable.com/2016/11/10/donald-trump-polling-data/#A3h3FLH2BSqD
Might as well have placed into POTUS or Brexit thread.

[Husar]

Seems to be hip now to blame just about anyone for helping to elect Trump. :dizzy2:

[Kralizec]

Seems to be hip now to blame just about anyone for helping to elect Trump. :dizzy2:

Yeah well, people like you are the reason Trump got elected.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Jesus christ, Monty is trying to make a simple point of how you can't always trust your own judgement even if you hypothetically have all the facts and opinions laid out in front of you.

America is going into the shitter because people no longer have any clue of the purpose of institutions. We live in a society where a wizard in his basement slaps together close up pictures of the twin towers burning over ominous music and suddenly we throw away our entire faith in the 9/11 commission report.

[Gilrandir]

We live in a society where a wizard in his basement slaps together close up pictures of the twin towers burning over ominous music and suddenly we throw away our entire faith in the 9/11 commission report.

But it is said: Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger (The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 3 Three is Company).