Saracen Infantry vs. Muwahid Foot Soldiers

[Foreign Devil]

I recently started my first game as the Turks, in early. I am now at war with the Byzintine empire (after giving the Egyptians a swift kick in the nuts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ). I'm having difficulty dealing with the several units of Kataphraktoi that the Byzintines now have. I'm trying to decide between building Saracen Infantry Or Muwahid Foot Soldiers.

What is the major difference, if any, between Saracens and Muwahid Foot??? Also, how effective are Ghazi's against Byz Infantry?

[Kraxis]

Saracens are your wall... They can stand up to the enemy for quite some time. Use them to hold the Kats.

The Muwahids need to use their great charge, and they need to use it at the flanks as they don't have a good defense. Their good Morale, smaller size and good speed indicates they are flankers, and with the charge they can become good at it. Use them to hit the sides of that Kats repeatedly.

Ghazi are not that good against Byz Inf unless you can hit their side. The Byz Inf can easily absorb the Ghazi and roll over them.

[kyodai-britishbeef]

i agree with kraxis, i have played many campaigns with the turks, and use the saracens as my wall with muwahids and ghazis on the flanks to quickly out flank the enemy and over run there sides and rear. and u might want to try some camel units against the kats maybe 1 or 2 units (sometimes works well)

[Foreign Devil]

Thanks for the info, Kraxis. Now, to go put this to use.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

Saracen always. Muwahids are just too damned fragile. as are Ghazi. In 1.0 Ghazi were worth something, but they're nerfed now.

for the Turks, the best damned unit is Armenian Heavy Cavalry. cheap, easily available, and with charge 8 even better than Khwarazmian cav. just charge the flanks, withdraw, and charge again. repeat till the enemy breaks. not even kataphraktoi can take such abuse

[kataphraktoi]

Saracen Infantry certainly do hold up kats, in my experience with the Byzantines the Kats have been repeatedly held up the Saracen infantry, though I beat the Saracen infantry with the Kats it takes such a long time
Nowadays when I charge with the Kats I time it right so I can roll over the infantry with trouble - they're like byza infantry - they hold up elite units and take the punishment.

As for Armenia heavy cavalry they are a mystery to me, my Kats often crush them into the grounf but somtimes they put up a decent fight. Invincible and Weak at the same time.
Wish the byz could build armenian heavy cav though since Armenians were a sizeable force in the byzantine army.

[All_the_Sultan's_horses]

Its true tt kataphraktoi will pound Armenians into the dirt, but i never intended to pit them against kataphraktoi, or indeed any heavy cav, directly. i advised to engage them with saracens first, then have the armenians charge and re-charge from the flank. armenians have irresistible charge. u'd agree, kataphraktoi, tt not even kataphraktoi can stand for long against such tactics?

[war_blah]

if you put consideration on the Buildingcost/SupportCost/RegionBonus/ValourBonus potential for Armenian. You will find that Armenian is far better than Khwarazmiam in many ways if you build them in Armernia.

3/3/1/4/4/8 VS 3/5/1/7/4/6 and after the valour bonus the Armernian will be 4/4/1/5/6/8, i'm not sure if the region valor bonus give +2 morale or not, but even without it Armernian will still be great.

[Foreign Devil]

Well, I defeated the Byzintines. Those Saracens are tough bastards. Took Kraxis' advice, held the line with Saracens and flanked with Muwahid Foot and Armenian Heavies It is now the late 1120's, and I hold all former Byzintine and Egyptian lands. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Although on one occasion, I was sloppy, and a unit of Katas caught a unit of my Armenian Heavies in the open, and they were wiped out before I could do anything. But thats ok, in the next battle, I took over 1000 prisoners, incuding the Emperor http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (war_blah @ Jan. 06 2003,20:48)]3/3/1/4/4/8 VS 3/5/1/7/4/6 and after the valour bonus the Armernian will be 4/4/1/5/6/8, i'm not sure if the region valor bonus give +2 morale or not, but even without it Armernian will still be great.
You are a bit confusing in your post... I know the stats of the two units and I have a hard time figuring what is what. For instance what is that 1 you have in the middle of each numberline?

Armenian Heavy Cav: (charge/melee/defence/armour/morale) 8/3/3/4/4
V1 8/4/4/4/6

Khwarazmian Cav: 6/3/5/7/4

Obviously the V1 Armenian Heavy Cav are superior to the khwaz.

[Michael the Great]

Yup,Armenians are great 2 charge from the flank,but u need Kwazarmian cav 4 frontal charges(MUcH better armoured)
Try camels vs byz cav

[Foreign Devil]

My camels were highly effective against the Egyptian Kwazarmian cav and Gulam Bodyguards. Didn't try them against Kataphraktoi, though. Maybe some custom battles are in order. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif