Berlin this time

[Brenus]

Speechless...

[Strike For The South]

Religion of peas.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ave Maria, gratia plena, dominus tecum.
Benedictus tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructis ventris, Jesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora pro nobis peccatoribus, et pauperes familias eorum.
Amen




So saddening.

[Greyblades]

'Twas a matter of time, and it is to the credit of the german security services that it took so long for a major terrorist attack to succeed on german soil while the rest of europe took the brunt of the disasters that come with unrestricted immigration from a hostile culture.

[Husar]

Just as terrible as everything else going on in the world.
I prefer to look at the bright side, I could have been born 15 years before the 30 years war... :freak:

[InsaneApache]

Was it a Norwegian Wiccan again?

[Husar]

Was it a Norwegian Wiccan again?

No, it was a Polish truck that killed all the people...

[Montmorency]

Looks like Poland is threatening German security again...

[Ronin]

time to apply....the formula!!

19272

[Husar]

That is an incredibly strange view, especially considering that Germany just began to return thousands of Afghans to Afghanistan.
Last I heard, the remaining refugees are stuck somewhere in Southern Europe, if they come in illegally or get smuggled that hardly qualifies as our action.

As for step 7, that's absolutely justified, yes, I tend to skip the first 6 steps because 7 is the most fun.

[Beskar]

I feel like the formulae is missing a step where the 'proposed solution' of those who want to 'stop it' involves 'burning down mosques', 'rounding up muslims into camps and deporting them', 'glassing the middle east', 'using naval ships to sink refugee boats', and 'build a massive concrete war with machine gun fortifications' to stop the refugees.

Then it goes to 7 where people are quite rightly calling those people lunatics and bigots for sentencing millions of people unfairly due to the actions of a handful of people. It is interesting what context can do to an argument when you ignore massive crucial aspects.

[Greyblades]

Main suspect is a pakistani immigrant that arrived last year. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38379157)

[Ronin]

I feel like the formulae is missing a step where the 'proposed solution' of those who want to 'stop it' involves 'burning down mosques', 'rounding up muslims into camps and deporting them', 'glassing the middle east', 'using naval ships to sink refugee boats', and 'build a massive concrete war with machine gun fortifications' to stop the refugees.

Then it goes to 7 where people are quite rightly calling those people lunatics and bigots for sentencing millions of people unfairly due to the actions of a handful of people. It is interesting what context can do to an argument when you ignore massive crucial aspects.

I would say that totally ignoring the impacts that this refugee influx is having also fails on a few massive crucial aspects.

if saying that deportations and the use of nuclear weapons falls on the same level to you.....ok

me, I would settle on stopping the influx and deportations, but hey, that's just me.

[Husar]

Main suspect is a pakistani immigrant that arrived last year. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38379157)

Indeed, quote from your link:


The German authorities say they cannot be sure if a man in custody was behind Monday's lorry attack on a Berlin Christmas market that killed 12 people.
"We have to entertain the theory that the detainee might possibly not have been the perpetrator," federal prosecutor Peter Frank told reporters.


I would say that totally ignoring the impacts that this refugee influx is having also fails on a few massive crucial aspects.

if saying that deportations and the use of nuclear weapons falls on the same level to you.....ok

me, I would settle on stopping the influx and deportations, but hey, that's just me.

The influx is already stopped, or isn't it? Besides, what would have been a viable alternative strategy when they were already in Greece and Italy? Throw Italy and Greece out of the EU and build a wall around them fast? The German decision to take a share of the burden was as much a service to these two countries (as well as some other eastern countries that were whining about foreigners at their borders) as it was to the refugees one might think. As far as I'm aware there are now fences along those borders, Turkey was paid to hold them back and at least in the mainstream media I did not hear about millions more arriving lately. So how and where is the influx still going on officially?

[Greyblades]

The aformentioned uspect has just been released for lack of evidence.



if saying that deportations and the use of nuclear weapons falls on the same level to you.....ok
]

An unfair equivalence, one made all the more striking considering the moderate perspective beskar supports is currently responsible for a far higher bodycount in the last half century than the fringe views he uses as a strawman.

[Husar]

An unfair equivalence, one made all the more striking considering the moderate perspective beskar supports is currently responsible for a far higher bodycount in the last half century than the fringe views he uses as a strawman.

That is way too simplistic a statement to make anything of it. If you want to count bodies, I can give you plenty of things that cause a higher body count than islamic terrorism, much higher than "immigrant terrorism" and are "merely" byproducts of our way of life. If we want to go there, current islamic terrorism is by extension also just a byproduct of our way of life.

May I also ask you what solutions you would apply?

[Greyblades]

I wasnt referring to terrorism, I was referring to the damage the migrants have done to your nation over the last year alone;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmJm6MOWIAExVk0.jpg
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1_rNT3k2ZXB-f9z-2nSFMIBQKXCs&hl=en_US

A deluge of murderers thieves rapists and paedophiles have snuck into europe in the guise of refugees, unfiltered by even the basic degree of border control, and its results have turned even the responsible Merkel's head.

You have a higher body count, a greater level of misery the men of straw you constantly dagger are responsoble for unleashing on our continent?
Then present it, or finally cease your endless evasion and whataboutery. The abominable infection your like invited and defend to the hilt is what is trying to destroy everything you love.

[Greyblades]

As for what I would suggest? Deportations.

Everyone who came illegally who cannot be identified as syrian get sent home, everyone who can be identified as syrian who isnt likely to be executed by assad you send back, those who will be executed give to whichever middle east nation that will take them.

Those that cant be fobbed off you keep under the condition that the first crime they commit will get them deported with the rest regardless of result.

[Beskar]

if saying that deportations and the use of nuclear weapons falls on the same level to you.....ok

I was merely quoting actual statements I have personally heard on the internet and advocated by people in real life. I did not list them in any order of significance. But given the nature of the statements, I still feel my statement about 'Missing Step' being justified as inciting the response of the 7th step.

Though, in response to Greyblades, I wasn't actually establishing a strawman. I never labeled a group of people and attributed these to them, I said "These are the types of statements people say to incite comments of being called a bigot and a racist". Given the nature of the statements, it is not surprising that they might incite these type of responses from people, though usually these people go unchallenged as they tend to be known for being rather loudmouthed and opinionated anyway, and they are 'tolerated' due to other attributes or aspects, such as being family members, work colleagues, and so on.

Strawman would be more closely aligned with your comment, Greyblades. Given I haven't actually stated my position, but apparently it is a moderate perspective and responsible for a large bodycount. I am rather amused by this assertion.

[Husar]

I wasnt referring to terrorism, I was referring to the damage the migrants have done to your nation over the last year alone;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmJm6MOWIAExVk0.jpg
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1_rNT3k2ZXB-f9z-2nSFMIBQKXCs&hl=en_US

A deluge of murderers thieves rapists and paedophiles have snuck into europe in the guise of refugees, unfiltered by even the basic degree of border control, and its results have turned even the responsible Merkel's head.

You have a higher body count, a greater level of misery the men of straw you constantly dagger are responsoble for unleashing on our continent?
Then present it, or finally cease your endless evasion and whataboutery. The abominable infection your like invited and defend to the hilt is what is trying to destroy everything you love.

That's the typical alt-right thinly veiled racist rhetoric that has no basis in reality:

https://en.qantara.de/content/refugees-and-german-crime-rates-zero-correlation

http://www.thelocal.de/20160610/why-refugee-crime-numbers-have-plummeted


“The statement comparing Germans and immigrants is stupid,” Wendt said. “You cannot make a blanket statement about refugees, who are many people coming from many different countries.

“There are people who never read the news and only look at Facebook, where they only get the impression that all crimes are committed by refugees… but that of course is not statistically true.

Your accusation at the end is way too generic once again, it is completely unclear what you are saying. So let me go with the two interpretations I can see:

1. You say I defend the crimes: Blatant lie and complete failure to get my point, more luck next time.

2. You are offended that I "defend to the hilt" refugees as a whole: Well, given that they are, as a group, about as guilty as any other group of 2 million people, I can only assume that you have a racist motivation to want me to hate all of them.

Pick your explanation...

As for the higher body count, that is supposedly normal with more inhabitants, what you fail to prove is that it is abnormally increased beyond an expected increase. I will even give you that it may be a bit higher statistically, but that is to be expected to some extent.
Your map from a crazy Facebook-group doesn't show jack as long as we don't know how high the crime rate was before the immigrants came, plus it is based on assumptions that the perpetrators were refugees or immigrants.
https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2014/pks2014ImkBericht.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1
In 2014 the German police registered 6.082.064 crimes in Germany overall, just to put your numbers into perspective.
2.179 murders and "killings" (Totschlag in German, iirc when a killing was not planned ahead)
7.345 rapes and sexual assaults

Now you have all the variables, for example not every criminal in your statistic was necessarily a refugee and not every rape or sexual assault in Germany in 2014 was necessarily reported. For example because girls don't report their own father and so on.
The map you linked is also based on the media interpretations of some Facebook group, that alone disqualifies as a credible source for anything. The sarcastic headline and alt-right use of words don't help. But if you like maps, here is one for attacks on refugee homes:
http://www.ruhrnachrichten.de/storage/pic/mdhl/artikelbilder/nachrichten/region/5113527_1_CB_6u5XWMAAq5vU.jpg?version=1428420838
edit: And of course the "hoaxmap", a map of hoax reports of refugee crimes and other false allegations: http://hoaxmap.org
Are you sure none on your map appear on this one, too?
edit2: When I compared Pirna in Saxony, I noticed that there are cases of Romanians getting arrested for theft on your map. To count Romanians as "refugees" seems a bit odd, no?

As for your solution, people who are here illegally need to be found first, how would you go about that? Send the Gestapo to search all homes? Which Middle East nation has declared that it is ready to take anyone we want to send back? And did you know that sending people back to Syria would violate our own laws? We cannot send people back to a warzone, even the deportations to Afghanistan are highly controversial because the country isn't all that safe.

What I do agree with is that crimes should affect the asylum process, they currently do not or only in extreme cases. I do however wonder what you mean by "regardless of result"? Send them back even if they'll get killed? A bullet would be cheaper than an airplane ticket in that case... An execution (by proxy) for a theft seems unwarranted in any case.
The thing is that our asylum laws are somewhat work in progress due to the lack of attention they got for many years. That's not only true for those laws however, the rights of disabled people are also lagging behind a bit and so on. Such is the way of democracy.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Just as terrible as everything else going on in the world.
I prefer to look at the bright side, I could have been born 15 years before the 30 years war... :freak:

Point. Just read a stat on WW2 Russia. Males born in 1923...turning 18 in 1941....only 20% were alive in 1946.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wasnt referring to terrorism, I was referring to the damage the migrants have done to your nation over the last year alone;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmJm6MOWIAExVk0.jpg
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1_rNT3k2ZXB-f9z-2nSFMIBQKXCs&hl=en_US

A deluge of murderers thieves rapists and paedophiles have snuck into europe in the guise of refugees, unfiltered by even the basic degree of border control, and its results have turned even the responsible Merkel's head.

You have a higher body count, a greater level of misery the men of straw you constantly dagger are responsoble for unleashing on our continent?
Then present it, or finally cease your endless evasion and whataboutery. The abominable infection your like invited and defend to the hilt is what is trying to destroy everything you love.

This kind of snapshot is a poor use of statistics. At a minimum, you would need comparative figures for a similar swath of the general population and then some anova work to note a statistically significant difference.

[Pannonian]

Point. Just read a stat on WW2 Russia. Males born in 1923...turning 18 in 1941....only 20% were alive in 1946.

Bloody hell. IIRC Louis posted some stat about the 18-40 French generation from 1914-1918 as well, of which 1/3 were dead and another 1/3 were maimed. Of course, nothing in history compares with the Jews in occupied Europe, of which 95% of all age groups were dead by 1945, the most thorough rubbing out of an ethnic group in history.

[InsaneApache]

Wait until the Islamists become a majority in Europe by the end of this century, it will make the Shoa look like a walk in the park.

[Greyblades]

I was merely quoting actual statements I have personally heard on the internet and advocated by people in real life. I did not list them in any order of significance. But given the nature of the statements, I still feel my statement about 'Missing Step' being justified as inciting the response of the 7th step.

Though, in response to Greyblades, I wasn't actually establishing a strawman. I never labeled a group of people and attributed these to them, I said "These are the types of statements people say to incite comments of being called a bigot and a racist". Given the nature of the statements, it is not surprising that they might incite these type of responses from people, though usually these people go unchallenged as they tend to be known for being rather loudmouthed and opinionated anyway, and they are 'tolerated' due to other attributes or aspects, such as being family members, work colleagues, and so on.

Strawman would be more closely aligned with your comment, Greyblades. Given I haven't actually stated my position, but apparently it is a moderate perspective and responsible for a large bodycount. I am rather amused by this assertion.

Do not weasel this beskar I do not have the patience for you, you clearly said:


the 'proposed solution' of those who want to 'stop it' involves 'burning down mosques', 'rounding up muslims into camps and deporting them', 'glassing the middle east', 'using naval ships to sink refugee boats', and 'build a massive concrete war with machine gun fortifications' to stop the refugees.

The most lenient interpretation is a straw man; in this case an assertion based on a fringe but applied to the whole and your denial it is almost as large an insult to my reading comprehension as your customary passive agressive retort will likely be.


This kind of snapshot is a poor use of statistics. At a minimum, you would need comparative figures for a similar swath of the general population and then some anova work to note a statistically significant difference.
You would be correct if not for the fact that I was using this not to establish the level of crime compared to locals but to exhibit the weight of wrongs inflicted on the same native population. That picture was taken in June (https://twitter.com/xyeinzelfall/status/748273641389985792) and is of the map linked below the image, this is the map in december:

https://s29.postimg.org/ulvchpy3r/Germany1.png
https://s30.postimg.org/p89xjuigh/Germany_2.png
https://s29.postimg.org/acezc7rkn/Germany3.png
Weighty enough for any who havent completely nailed thier colours to the multicultural mast.

Speaking of which I'll get to husar's wall of projection in my next post.

[Kralizec]

This is terrible. I mean the 9 deaths, of course.

That people are -again- using this badmouth a huge group of people who've fled their wartorn homes isn't terrible, it's just sad. I don't care for islam as a religion (goes against too many of my personal values), but they're human beings and they have every right to apply for asylum. That there are quite a few rotten apples in the group is a serious problem, but that does not detract from the rights that these people as individuals have.

For the record, I think it's foremost the responsibility of nearby safe countries to house these refugees and I don't think that being a refugee should entitle you to free choice where to settle. But that's something to be decided and implemented on an international level. Lashing out against refugees is just spiteful and pointless.

[Sarmatian]

This is, of course, true, because not just anyone can stick a pin on a google map.

[Pannonian]

This is terrible. I mean the 9 deaths, of course.

That people are -again- using this badmouth a huge group of people who've fled their wartorn homes isn't terrible, it's just sad. I don't care for islam as a religion (goes against too many of my personal values), but they're human beings and they have every right to apply for asylum. That there are quite a few rotten apples in the group is a serious problem, but that does not detract from the rights that these people as individuals have.

For the record, I think it's foremost the responsibility of nearby safe countries to house these refugees and I don't think that being a refugee should entitle you to free choice where to settle. But that's something to be decided and implemented on an international level. Lashing out against refugees is just spiteful and pointless.

I did find the description of the arrested man a bit curious though: a Pakistani refugee. I didn't know they existed. I went on a Pakistani forum to see their view on it. They didn't know they existed either.

[Greyblades]

That's the typical alt-right thinly veiled racist rhetoric that has no basis in reality:

https://en.qantara.de/content/refugees-and-german-crime-rates-zero-correlation

http://www.thelocal.de/20160610/why-refugee-crime-numbers-have-plummeted
That is the typical progressive left thinly veild reverse racist propaganda that has no basis in reality.

Ironic echo aside, both of those articles source from the same Bundeskriminalamt police statistics (https://www.bka.de/EN/CurrentInformation/PoliceCrimeStatistics/policecrimestatistics_node.html), statistics that havent been updated for 2016, the only information that the BKA provide of the refugee influx is of 2015 of which only three to four months had that influx. It is only when counting the immigrants reports of those months and comparing them to the entire year's rate of crime among the pre crisis population do they get that 20% statistic. At best it is a nice endorsment for the pre influx immigrants but tells us nothing about the behavior of those in this immigrant wave.

An article produced by the arm of the german foreign office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantara.de) and an san-fransico immigrant journalist's collumn, both based on the same skewed statistic and both decidedly disingenuous.

I am annoyed at Seamus_Fermanagh; carrying the air of statistical authority but letting such a statistical mangling go unnoticed while attacking mine for not fulfilling an imagined intent.

For the intent I imagine you have: you dropped the ball.


Pick your explanation...

3. The mass of people, of which you have unfailingly attacked those who consider it a bad idea to import willy nilly, conceals a cuckoo bird egg that is trying to kill or corrupt you and your like.


As for the higher body count, that is supposedly normal with more inhabitants, what you fail to prove is that it is abnormally increased beyond an expected increase. I will even give you that it may be a bit higher statistically, but that is to be expected to some extent.
Your map from a crazy Facebook-group doesn't show jack as long as we don't know how high the crime rate was before the immigrants came, plus it is based on assumptions that the perpetrators were refugees or immigrants.
https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2014/pks2014ImkBericht.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1
In 2014 the German police registered 6.082.064 crimes in Germany overall, just to put your numbers into perspective.
2.179 murders and "killings" (Totschlag in German, iirc when a killing was not planned ahead)
7.345 rapes and sexual assaults

Now you have all the variables, for example not every criminal in your statistic was necessarily a refugee and not every rape or sexual assault in Germany in 2014 was necessarily reported. For example because girls don't report their own father and so on.
The map you linked is also based on the media interpretations of some Facebook group, that alone disqualifies as a credible source for anything. The sarcastic headline and alt-right use of words don't help. But if you like maps, here is one for attacks on refugee homes:
http://www.ruhrnachrichten.de/storage/pic/mdhl/artikelbilder/nachrichten/region/5113527_1_CB_6u5XWMAAq5vU.jpg?version=1428420838
edit: And of course the "hoaxmap", a map of hoax reports of refugee crimes and other false allegations: http://hoaxmap.org
Are you sure none on your map appear on this one, too?
edit2: When I compared Pirna in Saxony, I noticed that there are cases of Romanians getting arrested for theft on your map. To count Romanians as "refugees" seems a bit odd, no? You werent importing people en-mass from the middle east in 2014, I am capable of discriminating between pre and post crisis immigrants you know, do you?

Also at a single glance your hoax map supports my point: it is dwarfed by my map by two orders of magnitude, at least.


As for your solution, people who are here illegally need to be found first, how would you go about that? Send the Gestapo to search all homes? Which Middle East nation has declared that it is ready to take anyone we want to send back? And did you know that sending people back to Syria would violate our own laws? We cannot send people back to a warzone, even the deportations to Afghanistan are highly controversial because the country isn't all that safe.
It became too late to solve cleanly 12 months ago, your nation will pay the cost and suffer this for years, whether it is suffered with your conscience or your people's blood and tears is up to you.

This is my suggestion: do what the normans did when they took england: have a census. Domesday book germany, kick out those who cannot be proven legally or genetically native and hang juncker by his nipples from the Brandenburg gate.

Ok the last one isnt a serious suggestion, a man can dream

What I do agree with is that crimes should affect the asylum process, they currently do not or only in extreme cases. I do however wonder what you mean by "regardless of result"? Send them back even if they'll get killed? A bullet would be cheaper than an airplane ticket in that case... An execution (by proxy) for a theft seems unwarranted in any case. Then give them to whoever doesnt consider thier actions a crime, I hear qatar is very accepting of rape and loves cheap labour with nowhere else to go, failing that dump them on the somali coast, some of those that abuse our hospitality have been calling our governments tyrannical, it would be poetic for them to enjoy the hospitality of actual tyrants.

The thing is that our asylum laws are somewhat work in progress due to the lack of attention they got for many years. That's not only true for those laws however, the rights of disabled people are also lagging behind a bit and so on. Such is the way of democracy.
No, such is the way of napoleonic civil law, English common law would update itself as issues arise, as PVC would tell you.

[Greyblades]

This is, of course, true, because not just anyone can stick a pin on a google map.

Each comes with a link to a crime, you can go through them yourself and verify, if you can read german of course.

[Kagemusha]

My condolences to the families and loved ones of the victims. There is endless supply of lunatics as long as there will be humans around, but there is no reason to submit to fear because of them.

[Smiler]

I am convinced by Greyblades map, it is rather compelling and does contain lots of nice colours, it has links and everything.
Though I am slightly confused as to why such things as a chip pan catching fire are included in the seeminlgy random "crime" "statistics".

I say random , though of course it is not random , someone appears to have just trawled the newspapers, twitter and facebook, found anything with foriegners in Germany mentioned and added it to a list of "crimes"

[Greyblades]

I'm not entirely sure how I am to answer that without you actually linking anything.

[Smiler]

I'm not entirely sure how I am to answer that without you actually linking anything.
You invited people to trawl through your "evidence".
Are you not happy if they do so?
Maybe I just got lucky, after all it was just the third coloured symbol I tried that returned the unattended chip pan story.
But since you invited people to berify your "facts" might I ask if you verified any of them at all yourself, or did you just accept the link as you had already "nailed your colours" and didn't feel the neded to check your facts even after others had already challenged the accuracy of your claim.
Which on the face of it after the briefest perusal does clearly look like a undeniably false claim.

As for me linking anything? Its your link, you invited people to verify your link, you posted it, didn't you verify it yourself first?

[Greyblades]

Link me the chip pan fire or I call you a three post troll.

[Smiler]

Link me the chip pan fire or I call you a three post troll.
Its in your link
Do you always just call people names?
nice welcome

Krumbach (Swabia) 7/6/16 incident reported that tuesday at 19:28.
And the evil foriegners tried to put the chip pan out with a powder extinguisher, which is the correct one to use isn't it if it isn't a fire blanket you are using.
Nasty evil criminal foriegners (or is it just a hoax link you posted?)

[Smiler]

http://https://www.bsaktuell.de/40328/kreis-guenzburg-3-verletzte-bei-feuer-in-asylbewerberunterkunft/# (https://www.bsaktuell.de/40328/kreis-guenzburg-3-verletzte-bei-feuer-in-asylbewerberunterkunft/#")
So are you still wishing to defend your made up statistics?

[Smiler]

Improper disposal of wood ash, nasty stuff.
Naked man found bleeding , two morroccan "suspects" reported at scene, turns out they was trying to stop the drunk/drugged individual who was slashing himself with a bottle.
evil foriegners , great link greyblades, did you read any of it at all?
Or more impirtantly did the people who made the link read anything apart from "foriegners"?

[Greyblades]

You do know how unreasonable it is to expect me to verify every single one in this 10,000+ collection of cases right?

At this point I can easily write them off as mistakes, an issue of human error (assuming this isnt computer gathered, which I suspect) in catagories that can be ambiguous between designation and intent, rather insignificant in the deluge of legitimate cases. Find me something fraudulent six post troll, before implying fraud and this time dont waste my time searching.

Also learn to edit.

[Smiler]

You do know how unreasonable it is to expect me to verify every single one in this 10,000+ collection of cases right?

At this point I can easily write them off as mistakes, an issue of human error (assuming this isnt computer gathered) in catagories that can be ambiguous between designation and intent, rather insignificant in the deluge of legitimate cases. Find me something fraudulent six post troll, before implying fraud and this time dont waste my time searching.

Also learn to edit.
More name calling I see.:thumbsdown:

If it is unreasonable for you to verify your "facts" why are you telling others to verify them?
More importantly why are you getting so aggressive when they do verify your "facts" and so easily show them to be false?

Perhaps the problem lies in you swallowing "data" from a link based on your preconcieved views rather than the real information your link contains.
How on earth can you possibly claim that there is a "deluge of legitimate cases" in that link when you appear to not have the faintest idea what your link actually contains?

[Husar]

That is the typical progressive left thinly veild reverse racist propaganda that has no basis in reality.

Ironic echo aside, both of those articles source from the same Bundeskriminalamt police statistics (https://www.bka.de/EN/CurrentInformation/PoliceCrimeStatistics/policecrimestatistics_node.html), statistics that havent been updated for 2016, the only information that the BKA provide of the refugee influx is of 2015 of which only three to four months had that influx. It is only when counting the immigrants reports of those months and comparing them to the entire year's rate of crime among the pre crisis population do they get that 20% statistic. At best it is a nice endorsment for the pre influx immigrants but tells us nothing about the behavior of those in this immigrant wave.

An article produced by the arm of the german foreign office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantara.de) and an san-fransico immigrant journalist's collumn, both based on the same skewed statistic and both decidedly disingenuous.

I am annoyed at Seamus_Fermanagh; carrying the air of statistical authority but letting such a statistical mangling go unnoticed while attacking mine for not fulfilling an imagined intent.

For the intent I imagine you have: you dropped the ball.

The problem here is that I didn't put any big effort into it given that your "source" is rubbish anyway. If you post a racist Facebook group as a source, I response with the first thing I find. The "islamic" source just gave me Troll-happiness because I expected you to hate it. I'll drop as many balls for you as you want until you pick one up in the first place.
On that note, you seem to have conveniently overlooked the quote from The Local, where the head of our police union says Facebook "statistics" are misleading and basically agrees with Seamus and me. You may call him biased, but then you also can't trust the BKA statistics most likely and are left with nothing concrete either way...


3. The mass of people, of which you have unfailingly attacked those who consider it a bad idea to import willy nilly, conceals a cuckoo bird egg that is trying to kill or corrupt you and your like.

You complained that I was defending that, what about this have I defended?
You literally said I defended some people to the hilt, now you say I attacked others, make up your mind.
What exactly do you mean by "unfailingly attacked"? I have several times agreed with Fragony and even with you in my last reply to you.
I attack people who want to throw our values overboard and think walled settlements are the best thing ever instead of working for more equality around the globe.


You werent importing people en-mass from the middle east in 2014, I am capable of discriminating between pre and post crisis immigrants you know, do you?

*are you
Yes.


Also at a single glance your hoax map supports my point: it is dwarfed by my map by two orders of magnitude, at least.

No, it does not support your point at all.
That makes no sense whatsoever.


It became too late to solve cleanly 12 months ago, your nation will pay the cost and suffer this for years, whether it is suffered with your conscience or your people's blood and tears is up to you.

Blood and steel rhetoric, so cute. Who are "my people"?


This is my suggestion: do what the normans did when they took england: have a census. Domesday book germany, kick out those who cannot be proven legally or genetically native and hang juncker by his nipples from the Brandenburg gate.

Even more medieval now, how about we return to caveman politics or just let single cell organisms rule the planet again?


Ok the last one isnt a serious suggestion, a man can dream
Then give them to whoever doesnt consider thier actions a crime, I hear qatar is very accepting of rape and loves cheap labour with nowhere else to go, failing that dump them on the somali coast, some of those that abuse our hospitality have been calling our governments tyrannical, it would be poetic for them to enjoy the hospitality of actual tyrants.

There are plenty of other reasons nations may not want them. I'm pretty sure if Qatar wanted them, they'd have said so already.
As for "dumping them in Somalia", that just makes innocent Somalians bleed more, are they worth less than innocent Germans?


No, such is the way of napoleonic civil law, English common law would update itself as issues arise, as PVC would tell you.

We are updating our laws, that's what "work in progress" implies.

[Husar]

You do know how unreasonable it is to expect me to verify every single one in this 10,000+ collection of cases right?

At this point I can easily write them off as mistakes, an issue of human error (assuming this isnt computer gathered, which I suspect) in catagories that can be ambiguous between designation and intent, rather insignificant in the deluge of legitimate cases. Find me something fraudulent six post troll, before implying fraud and this time dont waste my time searching.

Also learn to edit.

So what about the ones I found in Saxony without even trying hard? Your Facebook map is simply pointless because to make sure it can be used for anything, one would indeed have to check all the individual links given that "mistakes" can be found by just checking three random links...

[Greyblades]

More name calling I see.

If it is unreasonable for you to verify your "facts" why are you telling others to verify them?
More importantly why are you getting so aggressive when they do verify your "facts" and so easily show them to be false?

Perhaps the problem lies in you swallowing "data" from a link based on your preconcieved views rather than the real information your link contains.
How on earth can you possibly claim that there is a "deluge of legitimate cases" in that link when you appear to not have the faintest idea what your link actually contains?

I reciprocate respect, guess how much respect I get from you.

On the subject of verification I have been burned enough times on this forum to not use sources without at least making sure it is at least helping my claim not hurting it; I looked through enough to know it wasnt complete bull spit. Having something resembling a life I didnt dedicate my next few months using google translate to check each and every one.

As for aggression, pot meet kettle and no they dont easily show them to be false, I used to have the rug pulled out from under me frequently years ago, but the good debators have slowly bled away from the site and I have gotten better at not making your level of newbie mistakes.

Mistake one: cherry picking; looking for the smallest error and presenting it as disproving the entire thesis.

[Smiler]

Even more medieval now, how about we return to caveman politics or just let single cell organisms rule the planet again?

Well , I suppose William had his admirers.
Take the French religious chap who did his biography as an example.
I wonder what he said about William sorting out the trouble.
To his shame, William made no effort to control his fury, punishing the innocent with the guilty.
He ordered that crops and herds, tools and food be burned to ashes.
More than 100,000 people perished of starvation.
I have often praised William in this book, but I can say nothing good about this brutal slaughter.
God will punish him

So Greyblades advocates what William did as a solution.
Thats called Genocide, it is a final solution I suppose.

[Smiler]

I reciprocate respect, guess how much respect I get from you.

On the subject of verification I have been burned enough times on this forum to not use sources without at least making sure it is at least helping my claim not hurting it; I looked through enough to know it wasnt complete bull spit. Having something resembling a life I didnt dedicate my next few months using google translate to check each and every one.

As for aggression, pot meet kettle and no they dont easily show them to be false, I used to have the rug pulled out from under me frequently years ago, but the good debators have slowly bled away from the site and I have gotten better at not making your level of newbie mistakes.

Mistake one: cherry picking; looking for the smallest error and presenting it as disproving the entire thesis.
Reciprocate respect?
Link me the chip pan fire or I call you a three post troll.


Mistake one?
Supporting documentation must support a thesis, if it doesn't support the thesis it should be avoided at all costs. putting fake documentation in a thesis and using it as the basis for the arguement being put forward will only earn you a fail.

Your mistake wasEach comes with a link to a crime, you can go through them yourself and verify
Is that what you would call a "newbie mistake" which a good debator would frequently pull the rug from under you with ?

[Husar]

On the subject of verification I have been burned enough times on this forum to not use sources without at least making sure it is at least helping my claim not hurting it; I looked through enough to know it wasnt complete bull spit. Having something resembling a life I didnt dedicate my next few months using google translate to check each and every one.

Ok, I go to the map again: "Wächtersbach: Südländer überfällt Bäckerei mit Schußwaffe und erbeutet Geld"

Links to this: http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/43561/3256629

In the text it says he spoke German without an accent but looked like a "southerner". :rolleyes:

--------------------------------

Next one, same screen: "Hünfelden: Südländer lenkt in Postfiliale Mitarbeiterin ab, während Komplizin Geld stiehlt

Links to this: http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/50153/3330615

Again, the article mentions that the trick thief spoke German without accent and looked like a "southerner". :rolleyes:

--------------------------------

Maybe, the orange ones are just the wrong color to pick...

A blue one from somehwere in the north-east: "Baek: Afghane tickt zweimal an einem Tag aus, geht auf Leute los, landet stationär im Krankenhaus"

Links to this: http://www.maz-online.de/Lokales/Prignitz/Brutale-Schlaeger-geschnappt

The article describes the action a bit more nuanced than the caption on the map. The Afghan man got into a fight with a Syrian and was hospitalized the first time around. Later he met him again and attacked him with a Shisha when a German woman got involved and got light cuts on her hand. The Afghan man was then brought to the hospital and lept there now because he seemed confused. Your map "abbreviates" this as "Afghan man loses it twice a day, attacks people, ends up in stationary hospital care". The actual article does not mention who or what started the first fight or whether this was in any way a criminal act worse than a bar brawl.
By the way, does a Syrian getting beaten by an Afghan count as "my people bleeding"? I know the German woman got light cuts, I'm curious about the Syrian.

--------------------------------

Oh, look a green one, this is terrible: Anklam: "Migrant dreht im Aldi durch, geht mit abgeschlagener Glasflasche auf Kunden los"

Translation of the caption: "Migrant goes crazy in ALDI [supermarket], attacks customers with broken glass bottle"

Links to this: http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/108768/3260880

Link describes indeed that the man was Afghan and somehow started a fight with a 30 year-old customer in the supermarket. He even tried to hit the man with said bottle but failed to hit him at all. He was then subdued by two other men as he was cutting his own belly and chest with the bottle and was found to have a blood alcohol of 1.92 per mill...

--------------------------------

I can totally see your point based on your totally legit and terrifying examples. You have to give them though that they learned to speak German without accent really fast... And no, I honestly didn't even skip any, these are the ones I clicked in the order in which I clicked them. :shrug:

Verifying your terrible map seems harder than one would think with all the "overwhelming evidence" of all the terrible crimes these people commit...

[Gilrandir]

The sarcastic headline and alt-right use of words don't help. .

That will be seen when we come to know how much support AfD will have picked in the upcoming elections.

[Smiler]

Verifying your terrible map seems harder than one would think with all the "overwhelming evidence" of all the terrible crimes these people commit...
But, but, but, Each comes with a link to a crime, you can go through them yourself and verify.:oops:
But be generous, perhaps it was a typo. Maybe he meant to write "please don't click the links to verify the "facts"" instead

[Sarmatian]

Greyblades usually has no idea what he's talking about. No need to berate him about that. It's his right to be ignorant and biased.

[Gilrandir]

Greyblades usually has no idea what he's talking about. No need to berate him about that. It's his right to be ignorant and biased.

And Sarmatian usually has no scruples about berating others about things he isn't exempt from himself.

[Husar]

That will be seen when we come to know how much support AfD will have picked in the upcoming elections.

Dear Girlandir (https://www.google.de/search?q=girlande&client=opera&hs=Dd3&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig6dKGrIXRAhVcNFAKHUNbD6IQsAQIKQ&biw=2327&bih=1210), the AfD had around 13% support in a poll from December 8th. Surely the poll could be inaccurate, but as long as they don't magically gain another 37% until the election, I'm not too worried about them. You can see the poll results in these images: http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/crbilderstrecke-349~_origin-9ae4973d-b4bf-4080-aa48-fc5c22ab4ee3.html

First one is approval rating of individual politicians, note Merkel at 57% with a +5 change compared to November.
Second image is "what if you voted for a party today?".
Of course I'm curious about the upcoming January results, but it seems Germans are more resilient to the likes of the AfD than several neighboring countries nowadays...


There are also new news on the attack, the police has a website where people can send images and video from the incident and surroundings to help the police find the perpetrator(s). Someone performed a DDoS attack on that website using a large botnet and managed to keep it offline for two hours.

Police are now also looking for a Tunisian man, whose papers they found in the cabin of the truck: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/20/berlin-market-attack-suspect-named-23-year-old-asylum-seeker/


The new suspect wanted by police entered Germany as an asylum-seeker in April this year, according to Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper.

The Tunisian, who has been named as Anis A, was already considered a threat by German intelligence, the newspaper reports.

Other newspapers, including Der Spiegel and Bild, have also named the suspect as Anis A.

Anis A allegedly had contacts with the network of an extremist Muslim preacher who was recently arrrested.

Further reading on Süddeutsche Zeitung reveals a bit more about the new suspect: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/anschlag-auf-berliner-weihnachtsmarkt-was-wir-ueber-den-moeglichen-taeter-wissen-1.3302499

He travelled to Italy in 2012 and then came to Germany in July 2015. Since April 2016 he has the status "tolerated" here. In August he was arrested by police in Friedrichshafen with a fake Italian passport. German intelligence pegged him as a terror threat due to his being a follower of the hate preacher Abu Walaa (the "faceless preacher") who was arrested in November. This and the fact that Nizza was also a truck attack carried out by a Tunisian (same terror group affiliation?) could hint at them having the right suspect this time.

Further the article mentions that he once asked someone whether they could get him a gun and police were monitoring his telecommunication. A police source said they're unclear so far about how he could escape police surveillance, but I personally wouldn't be surprised if it is revealed to be a lack of resources/manpower.

[Kagemusha]

Children,children.. Was there not a topic not long a go about mutual respect and attacking the argument and not the person...

[Gilrandir]

Dear Girlandir (https://www.google.de/search?q=girlande&client=opera&hs=Dd3&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig6dKGrIXRAhVcNFAKHUNbD6IQsAQIKQ&biw=2327&bih=1210)

What are the pictures to signify? Christmas spirit or an attempt at mocking? In any case you got the spelling and etymology of my "name" wrong, Gooser. (https://www.google.com.ua/search?q=gooser&rlz=1C1NHXL_ruUA723UA723&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=691&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtlLrHvIXRAhUCKywKHS0-DSsQsAQIKA&dpr=1.25)

[Husar]

What are the pictures to signify? Christmas spirit or an attempt at mocking? In any case you got the spelling and etymology of my "name" wrong, Gooser. (https://www.google.com.ua/search?q=gooser&rlz=1C1NHXL_ruUA723UA723&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=691&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtlLrHvIXRAhUCKywKHS0-DSsQsAQIKA&dpr=1.25)

Haha, no, sorry, I spelled it that way on purpose because other people do it all the time. And since that spelling reminds me of the German word "Girlande", I added pictures of Girlanden to it.

To answer your question, Christmas Spirit.

I was actually hoping you'd find some useful information in that post, there wasn't even any need or reason to mock you.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...I am annoyed at Seamus_Fermanagh; carrying the air of statistical authority but letting such a statistical mangling go unnoticed while attacking mine for not fulfilling an imagined intent.

For the intent I imagine you have: you dropped the ball...

My intent was more derived from just having completed another section of research methods. Far too many statistics are presented without a point of comparison or the appropriate statistical confirmation. One of my pet peeves about the mis-use of research. By the way, your discussion of the numbers and potential strengths/weaknesses thereof which you posted in this post were a much stronger presentation and a clearer statement of your points. All-in-all, I thought this post explained your concerns and perspective much more clearly and effectively that the earlier ones.

[Husar]

More new novelty news from the interior minister of Northrhine-Westfalia: https://www.facebook.com/tagesschau/videos/vb.193081554406/10154893347624407/?type=2&theater&notif_t=live_video&notif_id=1482330781332712

The asylum request of the suspect was denied by the authorities in June, he was placed in the deportation program but could not be deported because he had no valid papers. The process to get him a replacement passport was initiated by German authorities in August, but Tunisia denied his citizenship at first and did not send any new papers. The papers actually arrived today... (he says he won't comment that)

He also mentions that the guilt of the guy is not proven yet, they only found his papers under the driver's seat (one may wonder why they only found them there two days after the attack, but then again I'm not that familiar with police procedures). Oh and that an investigation into the guy for being a terror threat was already under way with the state attourney or so of Berlin.

[Kralizec]

I did find the description of the arrested man a bit curious though: a Pakistani refugee. I didn't know they existed. I went on a Pakistani forum to see their view on it. They didn't know they existed either.

There are a few situations where a Pakistani man can legitimately claim asylum elsewhere (people who've been accused of blasphemy stand a good chance of getting lynched, for example) but I imagine that most of them are fake. Just like the ones from Morocco or Algeria.

The proper term should be 'asylum seeker/applicant'.

[Gilrandir]

there wasn't even any need or reason to mock you.

For some people here no need or reason is no excuse, that is why I asked.

And merry (and safe) Christmas to you, too. ~:santa:

[Beskar]

I think the Mirror is poor quality, like Daily Mail, The Sun, and so on, but I have to admit, this 'article' amused me a little when talking about the false hyperboles surrounding the Lorry driver which I have seen expressed in a few places.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/truth-berlin-christmas-market-terror-9500721?service=responsive

[InsaneApache]

The appeasers, apologists and ‘useful idiots’ have been out in force over the festive season, busily lighting candles, declaring ‘Ich Bin Ein Berliner’ and proclaiming that the murderous attack on the Christmas market had nothing to do either with Islam or mass immigration. Thinking of them prompted me to pluck from my shelf one of my favourite books, a slim tome entitled ‘Ourselves and Germany’, written in the winter of 1937 by the Marquess of Londonderry. Otherwise known as Charles Stewart Henry Vane-Tempest-Stewart, or ‘Charley’ to his pals, the Marquess could neither write well nor read men well, but his book is nonetheless riveting. It’s a timeless reminder of where an educated man’s moral cowardice and intellectual stupidity can lead.

The Marquess resigned as Secretary of State for Air in 1935, and spent the next two years scuttling back and forth to Germany as an unofficial emissary of Appeasement. Hitler, who extended his distinguished visitor ‘every consideration and courtesy’ was simply misunderstood by the British people, wrote Charley. So were Hermann Goering and Joachim von Ribbentrop, and that was the fault of Britain’s ‘cheap and popular press’, which twisted their words and turned the minds of the public against the Third Reich.

Charley wasn’t a bad man; he was just an arrogant and gullible one, who like many educated men of the era, was taken in by Hitler. The Fuhrer, for all his faults, was adept at hoodwinking his enemies by telling them with a polite smile what they wanted to hear. The Marquess’s cousin was Winston Churchill, who never misread Hitler, and he crops up in another book I’ve recently read, ‘Conquering Islamic Totalitarianism’, by François Fillon, the centre-right candidate in France’s presidential election.

Fillon asks his readers to imagine for a moment if, in these sombre times, they could think of ‘Winston Churchill or Charles de Gaulle, sitting at their desk, head in their hands, moaning ‘Where are we heading? Who are we? What is our identity?’.’ He scoffs at the idea, and in the next paragraphs declares that the West must look to the two wartime leaders for inspiration ‘faced with Islamic Totalitarianism’.

It’s a fight on two fronts, explains Fillon, against the Islamists themselves, and against the left, whom he damns for their ‘imbecilic sophism’, adding that they are ‘ideologically blind’ and suffering from a ‘paranoia of Islamophobics’. He makes no apology for drawing parallels between Nazism and Islamic extremism and vows to extinguish the ‘Spirit of Munich’ that he says permeates much of left-wing ideology. ‘Because let there be no mistake’, he writes, ‘these are the same people who bleated for pacifism and collective security in the 1930s when Hitler began re-arming a Germany still weak. These are the same people who cowardly celebrated the sinister Munich Agreement and claimed that peace had been saved’.


Fillon writes also that the time for accepting the unacceptable is over. After each new outrage, ‘we go through the same sadly familiar and repetitive scenario with the president and the politicians lighting candles to commemorate the massacre and observing the rituals of compassion’. In Angela Merkel’s case, it was laying a white rose at the scene of slaughter, an act she described as ‘incomprehensible’. Only it wasn’t, it was all too comprehensible to those who predicted that her decision to open Germany’s borders was a monumental misjudgement. Incomprehensible are the blunders made by the German security services who had been tracking Anis Amri since March; incomprehensible are the German privacy laws that meant the media wasn’t able to show a photograph of Amri; incomprehensible were the words of a German journalist who tweeted that the best response to the massacre was ‘patience, empathy and humanity’.

Patience for what? Until it’s our turn to be shot, knifed, blown up or run over by the Islamists? Speaking days after the attack in Nice last July that left 86 people dead, the then Prime Minister of France, Manuel Valls, said:

‘I need to tell the truth to the French: Terrorism will be part of everyday life for a long time.’

That statement confirmed to the French that their government prioritised political correctness above their protection. Terrorism need not be a part of everyday life if Europe controls its borders, outlaws Salafism, expels hate preachers, deports illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers, imprisons all returning IS fighters and, above all, stops tolerating the intolerance of Islamic extremism, whose objective regarding Europe is conquest not cohabitation.

Writing in the Guardian, the historian Timothy Garton Ash warned that the ‘Berlin Christmas market attack could unleash forces of intolerance to threaten liberal ideals across the continent’. He was alluding to the forces of far-right fascism, which indeed are a concern, but they are on the rise only because a generation of European leaders have failed to confront Islam’s ‘forces of intolerance’.

Meanwhile, Islamic terror attacks in the Middle East have killed thousands of Christians, Jews, Yazidis and other minority faiths, and in his pre-recorded message for Radio Four’s ‘Thought for the Day’, Prince Charles warned that ‘all of this has deeply disturbing echoes of the dark days of the 1930s’. Islamofascism is the clear and present danger. In the past two years its foot soldiers have killed 250 people in Paris, Nice, Brussels, Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray, and Copenhagen. While its ideological warriors have made big advances, under a creeping barrage of ‘Islamophobia’, against democratic free speech so that now only the bravest dare stick their head above the parapet of political correctness.

Witness Theresa May’s appeasement in front of Parliament when she was given the chance to support the gymnast Louis Smith, who had been ostracised because of light-hearted mockery of Islam. ‘We value freedom of expression and freedom of speech in this country’, May told the Commons. ‘That is absolutely essential in underpinning our democracy, but we also value tolerance of others and tolerance in relation to religions.’

This age of appeasement must come to an end, and François Fillon in 2017 has the opportunity to redefine Europe’s attitude towards Islamism. ‘Fatalism is no way to fight fanaticism’, he writes in his book, adding that a more forceful approach is urgently required to prevent a third world war. If he’s elected president of France in the spring he must follow through on his pledge because Europe desperately needs a strong leader, a man like Churchill, who from the outset understood that evil must never be appeased.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/islamofascism-appeasement-biggest-dangers-facing-west/

Just a counter to the above article posted by Beskar. I'll let you lot judge.


Which means that a stabbed and heavily-bleeding man awoke from unconsciousness to realise his attacker was about to mow down pedestrians. He may have grabbed the wheel or punched the hijacker, but his actions caused the lorry to veer away from other shoppers and come to a halt. Lukasz was 6ft 2ins and weighed 18 stone, and despite his injuries he put up an heroic fight.

Hells Bells talk about useful idiots! :crazy:

[Beskar]

Suspect has been shot dead in Milan. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38415287)

[Husar]

The appeasers, apologists and ‘useful idiots’ have been out in force over the festive season, busily lighting candles, declaring ‘Ich Bin Ein Berliner’ and proclaiming that the murderous attack on the Christmas market had nothing to do either with Islam or mass immigration. Thinking of them prompted me to pluck from my shelf one of my favourite books, a slim tome entitled ‘Ourselves and Germany’, written in the winter of 1937 by the Marquess of Londonderry. Otherwise known as Charles Stewart Henry Vane-Tempest-Stewart, or ‘Charley’ to his pals, the Marquess could neither write well nor read men well, but his book is nonetheless riveting. It’s a timeless reminder of where an educated man’s moral cowardice and intellectual stupidity can lead.

The Marquess resigned as Secretary of State for Air in 1935, and spent the next two years scuttling back and forth to Germany as an unofficial emissary of Appeasement. Hitler, who extended his distinguished visitor ‘every consideration and courtesy’ was simply misunderstood by the British people, wrote Charley. So were Hermann Goering and Joachim von Ribbentrop, and that was the fault of Britain’s ‘cheap and popular press’, which twisted their words and turned the minds of the public against the Third Reich.

Charley wasn’t a bad man; he was just an arrogant and gullible one, who like many educated men of the era, was taken in by Hitler. The Fuhrer, for all his faults, was adept at hoodwinking his enemies by telling them with a polite smile what they wanted to hear. The Marquess’s cousin was Winston Churchill, who never misread Hitler, and he crops up in another book I’ve recently read, ‘Conquering Islamic Totalitarianism’, by François Fillon, the centre-right candidate in France’s presidential election.

Fillon asks his readers to imagine for a moment if, in these sombre times, they could think of ‘Winston Churchill or Charles de Gaulle, sitting at their desk, head in their hands, moaning ‘Where are we heading? Who are we? What is our identity?’.’ He scoffs at the idea, and in the next paragraphs declares that the West must look to the two wartime leaders for inspiration ‘faced with Islamic Totalitarianism’.

It’s a fight on two fronts, explains Fillon, against the Islamists themselves, and against the left, whom he damns for their ‘imbecilic sophism’, adding that they are ‘ideologically blind’ and suffering from a ‘paranoia of Islamophobics’. He makes no apology for drawing parallels between Nazism and Islamic extremism and vows to extinguish the ‘Spirit of Munich’ that he says permeates much of left-wing ideology. ‘Because let there be no mistake’, he writes, ‘these are the same people who bleated for pacifism and collective security in the 1930s when Hitler began re-arming a Germany still weak. These are the same people who cowardly celebrated the sinister Munich Agreement and claimed that peace had been saved’.


Fillon writes also that the time for accepting the unacceptable is over. After each new outrage, ‘we go through the same sadly familiar and repetitive scenario with the president and the politicians lighting candles to commemorate the massacre and observing the rituals of compassion’. In Angela Merkel’s case, it was laying a white rose at the scene of slaughter, an act she described as ‘incomprehensible’. Only it wasn’t, it was all too comprehensible to those who predicted that her decision to open Germany’s borders was a monumental misjudgement. Incomprehensible are the blunders made by the German security services who had been tracking Anis Amri since March; incomprehensible are the German privacy laws that meant the media wasn’t able to show a photograph of Amri; incomprehensible were the words of a German journalist who tweeted that the best response to the massacre was ‘patience, empathy and humanity’.

Patience for what? Until it’s our turn to be shot, knifed, blown up or run over by the Islamists? Speaking days after the attack in Nice last July that left 86 people dead, the then Prime Minister of France, Manuel Valls, said:

‘I need to tell the truth to the French: Terrorism will be part of everyday life for a long time.’

That statement confirmed to the French that their government prioritised political correctness above their protection. Terrorism need not be a part of everyday life if Europe controls its borders, outlaws Salafism, expels hate preachers, deports illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers, imprisons all returning IS fighters and, above all, stops tolerating the intolerance of Islamic extremism, whose objective regarding Europe is conquest not cohabitation.

Writing in the Guardian, the historian Timothy Garton Ash warned that the ‘Berlin Christmas market attack could unleash forces of intolerance to threaten liberal ideals across the continent’. He was alluding to the forces of far-right fascism, which indeed are a concern, but they are on the rise only because a generation of European leaders have failed to confront Islam’s ‘forces of intolerance’.

Meanwhile, Islamic terror attacks in the Middle East have killed thousands of Christians, Jews, Yazidis and other minority faiths, and in his pre-recorded message for Radio Four’s ‘Thought for the Day’, Prince Charles warned that ‘all of this has deeply disturbing echoes of the dark days of the 1930s’. Islamofascism is the clear and present danger. In the past two years its foot soldiers have killed 250 people in Paris, Nice, Brussels, Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray, and Copenhagen. While its ideological warriors have made big advances, under a creeping barrage of ‘Islamophobia’, against democratic free speech so that now only the bravest dare stick their head above the parapet of political correctness.

Witness Theresa May’s appeasement in front of Parliament when she was given the chance to support the gymnast Louis Smith, who had been ostracised because of light-hearted mockery of Islam. ‘We value freedom of expression and freedom of speech in this country’, May told the Commons. ‘That is absolutely essential in underpinning our democracy, but we also value tolerance of others and tolerance in relation to religions.’

This age of appeasement must come to an end, and François Fillon in 2017 has the opportunity to redefine Europe’s attitude towards Islamism. ‘Fatalism is no way to fight fanaticism’, he writes in his book, adding that a more forceful approach is urgently required to prevent a third world war. If he’s elected president of France in the spring he must follow through on his pledge because Europe desperately needs a strong leader, a man like Churchill, who from the outset understood that evil must never be appeased.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/islamofascism-appeasement-biggest-dangers-facing-west/

Just a counter to the above article posted by Beskar. I'll let you lot judge.

A completely egocentric piece of hysterial bullcrap.
If we can adjust to global warming, we can also adjust to terrorism. Whether I wait patiently to get maimed by Islamists or to die to multi-resistent bacteria, food poisoning or simply starvation is all the same to me. In fact a bomb or a bullet may be quicker than slowly getting eaten from the inside. :shrug:
The rest of the text partially doesn't fit the timeline in Beskar's link and then he takes the most outrageous leftist positions and seems to ascribe them to the entire left, much like leftists call everyone on the right Nazis.
If this Nazi wants to polarize, he does a wonderful job, but I say if we keep terrorism around, it creates more jobs and economic growth, so more power to them, nothing else is important. :dizzy2:

Don't agree? Well, Donald Trump dismantling the Affordable Care Act may kill a few thousand people every year, but who gives a crap as long as he "saves jobs", right? Surely one can agree with him...


Hells Bells talk about useful idiots! :crazy:

Please expand, who are the idiots, why and how do you know them so well?

[InsaneApache]

I think you just proved his point.

[Pannonian]

A completely egocentric piece of hysterial bullcrap.
If we can adjust to global warming, we can also adjust to terrorism. Whether I wait patiently to get maimed by Islamists or to die to multi-resistent bacteria, food poisoning or simply starvation is all the same to me. In fact a bomb or a bullet may be quicker than slowly getting eaten from the inside. :shrug:
The rest of the text partially doesn't fit the timeline in Beskar's link and then he takes the most outrageous leftist positions and seems to ascribe them to the entire left, much like leftists call everyone on the right Nazis.
If this Nazi wants to polarize, he does a wonderful job, but I say if we keep terrorism around, it creates more jobs and economic growth, so more power to them, nothing else is important. :dizzy2:

Don't agree? Well, Donald Trump dismantling the Affordable Care Act may kill a few thousand people every year, but who gives a crap as long as he "saves jobs", right? Surely one can agree with him...

Please expand, who are the idiots, why and how do you know them so well?

The problem is that advocates of the most outrageous positions on the Left are in charge of the mainstream Left in Britain. List all the ridiculous positions that the fringes of the British Left have taken in the past, all the cosying up to terrorists and whatnot as long as they were anti-Anglo-America, and you have a list of friends of Jeremy Corbyn. And not just Corbyn, but also the current occupiers of the top jobs in the Shadow Cabinet. Out of the top four jobs in HM's opposition, only Thornberry (shadow Foreign Secretary) doesn't have that history, and probably only because she hasn't been in politics as long as the other three have. Appeasers and friends of Islamofascism? Seems an accurate description of the positions taken by Corbyn (Leader of opposition), McDonnell (shadow Chancellor) and Abbott (shadow Home Secretary).

[Husar]

I think you just proved his point.

Blatant lie.


The problem is that advocates of the most outrageous positions on the Left are in charge of the mainstream Left in Britain. List all the ridiculous positions that the fringes of the British Left have taken in the past, all the cosying up to terrorists and whatnot as long as they were anti-Anglo-America, and you have a list of friends of Jeremy Corbyn. And not just Corbyn, but also the current occupiers of the top jobs in the Shadow Cabinet. Out of the top four jobs in HM's opposition, only Thornberry (shadow Foreign Secretary) doesn't have that history, and probably only because she hasn't been in politics as long as the other three have. Appeasers and friends of Islamofascism? Seems an accurate description of the positions taken by Corbyn (Leader of opposition), McDonnell (shadow Chancellor) and Abbott (shadow Home Secretary).

Now you make this about Britain and Corbyn again.
As if all the references to crazy island politics in IA's terrible link weren't enough already.
Can't British people talk about anything without constantly drawing parallels to their own island?
No wonder you left the EU to be alone with yourselves. And then you blame Middle Easterners for inbreeding...

Is that offensive? Well, IA's link taught me that appeasement is not a viable tactic... :dizzy2:
May also explain Corbyn's actions while we're at it.

[Pannonian]

Blatant lie.

Now you make this about Britain and Corbyn again.
As if all the references to crazy island politics in IA's terrible link weren't enough already.
Can't British people talk about anything without constantly drawing parallels to their own island?
No wonder you left the EU to be alone with yourselves. And then you blame Middle Easterners for inbreeding...

Is that offensive? Well, IA's link taught me that appeasement is not a viable tactic... :dizzy2:
May also explain Corbyn's actions while we're at it.

The kind of appeasement that's offensive to most Britons is the kind that blames the host culture for not being accepting enough of the incoming culture, when the incoming culture are the ones acting. Eg. the Rotherham child abuse scandal where councillors feared being called racist if they drew attention to the network of Asian males. Not an unreasonable fear if you look at the professional offence takers. Go a bit further and look at groups like Stop the War, which are notorious for having been taken over by Islamists and Islamism sympathisers. These are the groups that the current Labour leadership travelled in for decades (there was a furore over a planned appearance at an SWP do a couple of months back, which was too far even for some of Corbyn's diehard supporters, but Corbyn went anyway). These are groups that take positions that are patently outrageous to the vast majority of British people. But they're the heart and soul of Labour's leadership. So to disclaim IA's article to argue that taking an outrageous position and claiming it to represent the Left in general is unfair. They do represent the British Left's mainstream leaders, at present.

See also the guy who accosted the British Jewish Labour MP with classic anti-semitic comments, at the launch of Labour's study on anti-semitism in Britain. Corbyn took his side of course, since he was a longtime friend and supporter of his. These "outrageous" people are friends of the leader of the mainstream Left, a man who, as his ministerial appointments show, values his friends above everything else.

[Husar]

So to disclaim IA's article to argue that taking an outrageous position and claiming it to represent the Left in general is unfair. They do represent the British Left's mainstream leaders, at present.

So it is merely completely misplaced in a discussion about this particular event and German politics?
Given that IA's article blamed Merkel in stark contradiction to the events as outlined in Beskar's article, I am now left to wonder why the article references the German attack at all if it is merely about British politics? Could have saved himself the embarassment.

I am not sure why an attack in Germany is brought into an article about how terrible British people are. It doesn't get better if the author gets basic facts wrong:


Only it wasn’t, it was all too comprehensible to those who predicted that her decision to open Germany’s borders was a monumental misjudgement. Incomprehensible are the blunders made by the German security services who had been tracking Anis Amri since March; incomprehensible are the German privacy laws that meant the media wasn’t able to show a photograph of Amri; incomprehensible were the words of a German journalist who tweeted that the best response to the massacre was ‘patience, empathy and humanity’.

First he talks about the troubles of appeasement and then he wishes for a German surveillance state and makes a completely misplaced statement about Angela Mekrle inviting all the foreigners. The perp entered Europe in 2011 and Germany a month before Angela Merkel "invited everyone". the attack on our privacy laws is completely unfounded and neither does he explain what he thinks the fault of German securiity services was. If he wants a Gestapo back that puts people in front of fake courts and executes them for talking the wrong way, then he should stop whining about Hitler and just say so.

[LittleGrizzly]

The other topics which Corbyn was mentioned in went quiet so this was seen as the best place to link it in...

Terrorism in Germany? Probably Corbyn's fault.

If you think about Corbyn has constantly opposed Western policy in the Middle East. The West's ME policies have been hugely successful, look what we have achieved. So any problems still existing in the Middle East are the fault of people like Corbyn...

It makes perfect sense to me.

I would like to offer a personal apology as a Corbyn supporter Husar, I'm clearly culpable.

[Montmorency]

To oppose a policy is not to convey a better one.

[Pannonian]

To oppose a policy is not to convey a better one.

Particularly as Corbyn has consistently appeared on the same platforms as those who have it in for the west. I'm not a fan of Israel, same as Corbyn. But I'm aware that the others are worse. Corbyn and his ilk work on the basis that, if Israel are bad, then those who oppose Israel must therefore be good. Hence his support of Islamists. Leftists everywhere should beware of the road taken by the British Left.

[LittleGrizzly]

His opposition of constant Western mistakes in the Middle East actually does convey another position.

Instead of supporting Israel and cheering them on enthusiastically he proposes we don't.

Instead of invading Iraq and turning the place into some kind of terrorist hellhole, he proposes we don't.

These are far better ideas, not invading Iraq is as much a policy as invading Iraq, just an infinitely better policy.

Pannonian again in your rush to dismiss Corbyn you've made a mistake, Corbyn ruled out talking to ISIS whilst New Labour candidate Smith said he would talk to them.

In fairness I think the New Labour guy was just saying what he thought might help him win, rather than any sensible well thought out policy, which Is probably why he was picked as the New Labour candidate!

Edit: Could we split this into a new topic or maybe just put these last few replies into the other topic regarding Corbyn, I feel a bit wrong ranting about new Labour on a topic about the Berlin attacks.

[Montmorency]

His opposition of constant Western mistakes in the Middle East actually does convey another position.

Instead of supporting Israel and cheering them on enthusiastically he proposes we don't.

Instead of invading Iraq and turning the place into some kind of terrorist hellhole, he proposes we don't.

These are far better ideas, not invading Iraq is as much a policy as invading Iraq, just an infinitely better policy.

Pannonian again in your rush to dismiss Corbyn you've made a mistake, Corbyn ruled out talking to ISIS whilst New Labour candidate Smith said he would talk to them.

In fairness I think the New Labour guy was just saying what he thought might help him win, rather than any sensible well thought out policy, which Is probably why he was picked as the New Labour candidate!

Edit: Could we split this into a new topic or maybe just put these last few replies into the other topic regarding Corbyn, I feel a bit wrong ranting about new Labour on a topic about the Berlin attacks.

I don't agree that the negations of current or past policies would count as better alternatives. It's worth pointing out that you don't think much of concrete American inaction in the matter of the recent UN resolution. This has wider significance for the uses of policy beyond the specific issues named. The contrapositive or negation of a bad policy is not a good policy, and those who criticize bad policies better have something else to present.

[LittleGrizzly]

I think you misread my post in the other topic, I actually said what America did was a good thing. What I criticised was the Obama administration doing the right thing at the very end of his term when there was no cost to it, after having the almost opposite policy for his entire two terms as president. Surely that was fairly clear when I said "Obama has finally decided to stand up and do the right thing"

Not invading Iraq was definitely a better idea than invading Iraq, the support of Israel might be debatable depending on your point of view but I imagine the vast majority of people would choose not to invade Iraq if we could change our mistake. Fair enough if you think our invasion of Iraq has made the world and the ME a better and safer place but I am going to have to strongly disagree.

TBH I have to disagree with this idea that somehow opposing a bad war isn't a good policy, was Corbyn supposed to pick out an alternate country for us to go to war with instead. Corbyn's policy at the time (I imagine) was probably lets not invade any countries right now, which looking back with retrospect was a much better policy than the one we followed.

As for his position with Israel surely that is as much a policy as anyone else's position on Israel. Supporting one, or the other, or both or neither (all to varying degress) would all actually be policies (well it would be the general position you build the specifics on)

[Montmorency]

Fair enough if you think our invasion of Iraq has made the world and the ME a better and safer place but I am going to have to strongly disagree.

I don't, but I don't think it's so simple as to say that "not invading" is the end of the story (either in policy or in parliamentary politics). I disagree with those who speculate that an Al Gore administration would have come to reproduce Bush's path into Iraq, but I do believe that every year that passed for the "unfriendly" regional dictators without generalized unrest and conflict (e.g. Arab-Spring type unrest), impetus within the US executive would have increased to undertake military solutions to perceived problems. Again, this doesn't mean that any particular military action is a good idea at all, but that "not" doing something is not a replacement and to prevent similar bad policies there need to be viable alternatives that acknowledge underlying imperatives. There is a reason that all modern American executives turn out as hawks of one sort or another, even Jimmy Carter, and declaiming "X is a bad idea" is like berating a whack-a-mole machine.

I think Hillary Clinton touched on this some years ago and in the recent presidential contest when grilled on Senate votes re: Iraq, that 'knowing then what we do now, I would not have voted to grant authority etc.' in that she seemed to shy away from posturing with reckless claims of what would have happened had she been in POTUS or somesuch.

[Husar]

I don't agree that the negations of current or past policies would count as better alternatives. [...] The contrapositive or negation of a bad policy is not a good policy, and those who criticize bad policies better have something else to present.

I'm a bit unclear on what exactly you mean, although I can see some merit in it. In general, one should always consider doing nothing as a possible alternative, so I don't see why it cannot be a viable policy to say that nothing should be done on a certain issue. If you are strictly speaking about past issues, then I would agree with you, about current policy I'm not so sure, is the idea to revoke a law/policy that is currently in effect not a viable policy? Such as repealing the Affordable Care Act etc.

Whether doing nothing is actually a better policy than doing something can be hard to prove without a fortune teller, but the same is true the other way around. With the Iraq invasion having been such a mess it seems quite clear that it was not such a great policy decision, whether Corbyn already opposed it in the beginning I have no idea/don't care.

[LittleGrizzly]

If your point is that Corbyns policies couldn't just consist of lets not do this or lets not do that then I fully agree, basically doing nothing abroad would still be a kind of policy I guess (isolationist) but there has to be some things you actually plan on doing other than criticising everyone else's decisions and doing nothing all the time.

But doing nothing is the best thing to do sometimes, during the build up to Iraq there wasn't really many options specifically in regards to our potential invasion of Iraq other than whether to do it or not, It isn't as if we had to invade a country and although Iraq turned out badly it could have turned out even worse had we gone for the other country.

I can understand your argument that the Americans might have eventually wanted to reach a military solution to their problems in he Middle East but our support of such things just encourages them and perhaps in the long run might actually mean more military solutions, also just because the Americans are about to make a mistake it doesn't mean we have to join in with them. By supporting them strongly when they are doing the right thing but not supporting their mistakes we could be a positive influence on them.

[Greyblades]

Ok, I go to the map again: "Wächtersbach: Südländer überfällt Bäckerei mit Schußwaffe und erbeutet Geld"

Links to this: http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/43561/3256629

In the text it says he spoke German without an accent but looked like a "southerner". :rolleyes:

--------------------------------

Next one, same screen: "Hünfelden: Südländer lenkt in Postfiliale Mitarbeiterin ab, während Komplizin Geld stiehlt

Links to this: http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/50153/3330615

Again, the article mentions that the trick thief spoke German without accent and looked like a "southerner". :rolleyes:

--------------------------------

Maybe, the orange ones are just the wrong color to pick...

A blue one from somehwere in the north-east: "Baek: Afghane tickt zweimal an einem Tag aus, geht auf Leute los, landet stationär im Krankenhaus"

Links to this: http://www.maz-online.de/Lokales/Prignitz/Brutale-Schlaeger-geschnappt

The article describes the action a bit more nuanced than the caption on the map. The Afghan man got into a fight with a Syrian and was hospitalized the first time around. Later he met him again and attacked him with a Shisha when a German woman got involved and got light cuts on her hand. The Afghan man was then brought to the hospital and lept there now because he seemed confused. Your map "abbreviates" this as "Afghan man loses it twice a day, attacks people, ends up in stationary hospital care". The actual article does not mention who or what started the first fight or whether this was in any way a criminal act worse than a bar brawl.
By the way, does a Syrian getting beaten by an Afghan count as "my people bleeding"? I know the German woman got light cuts, I'm curious about the Syrian.

--------------------------------

Oh, look a green one, this is terrible: Anklam: "Migrant dreht im Aldi durch, geht mit abgeschlagener Glasflasche auf Kunden los"

Translation of the caption: "Migrant goes crazy in ALDI [supermarket], attacks customers with broken glass bottle"

Links to this: http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/108768/3260880

Link describes indeed that the man was Afghan and somehow started a fight with a 30 year-old customer in the supermarket. He even tried to hit the man with said bottle but failed to hit him at all. He was then subdued by two other men as he was cutting his own belly and chest with the bottle and was found to have a blood alcohol of 1.92 per mill...

--------------------------------

I can totally see your point based on your totally legit and terrifying examples. You have to give them though that they learned to speak German without accent really fast... And no, I honestly didn't even skip any, these are the ones I clicked in the order in which I clicked them. :shrug:

Verifying your terrible map seems harder than one would think with all the "overwhelming evidence" of all the terrible crimes these people commit...


So what about the ones I found in Saxony without even trying hard? Your Facebook map is simply pointless because to make sure it can be used for anything, one would indeed have to check all the individual links given that "mistakes" can be found by just checking three random links...

Congratulations on picking up on your police force's euphamism of "Südländer" to side step the acknowledgement of north african/middle eastern suspects's actual origins. eg:

According to witnesses, all four men were Southern (possibly Turkish). (http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/4971/3260369)
Goebbels should sue them for stealing his schtick.

This is what I was putting off reading till the new years to preserve the christmas mood? I expected a shredding rebuttle that shows extreme disingenuity of the map and the best you can do is pick 1 case of failed assault and present it as representative of the majority or whole?

I'm not even sure what you are trying to do with your inter-migrant assault, as if the fact that migrants attack eachother negates a point that they are harming your people, a point which is suported by literally hundreds of others.

I knew your ideological hangups make you incapable of acknowledgeing anything that disagrees with your world view but that it has so crippled your ability to argue is downright sad, to the point that even the 11 post troll could do better with his hangup over the inclusion of negligential arson.

Here, lets put an actual selection of the contents on record:
refugees beat footballers with iron bars (http://m.bild.de/regional/dresden/koerperverletzung/fluechtlinge-verpruegeln-hobby-fussballer-44474614.bildMobile.html)
Three Pakistani men blackmail and stab shopkeeper. (http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/110972/3285842)
A Syrian warfighter accused of having thrown his three children out of window in Bonn. (https://www.welt.de/regionales/nrw/article158245401/Der-Vater-der-seine-Kinder-aus-dem-Fenster-warf.html)
Four syrians rape two underage girls (http://www.badische-zeitung.de/suedwest-1/zwei-maedchen-vergewaltigt-x1x--123133532.html)
11 year old raped by 17 year old afghan (http://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/tempelhof-schoeneberg/straf-akte-tempelhof-taeglich-muss-die-polizei-anruecken)
22-year-old Afghan is said to have forced a 4-year-old to oral sex. (http://www.oe24.at/welt/Bub-4-in-Fluechtlingsheim-vergewaltigt/247906300)
Refugees rape twelve-year-old boy (http://solinger-bote.de/nachrichten/2016/04/11/solingen-fluechtlinge-vergewaltigen-12-jaehrigen-jungen/)
51 year old woman raped and robbed by north african in Saxony (http://www.polizei.sachsen.de/de/MI_2016_43298.htm)
24-year-old abused on toilet by asylum-seeker from Morocco. (https://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/article208953753/Nach-Vergewaltigung-in-Kiezbar-Haftbefehl-gegen-34-Jaehrigen.html)
15-year-old raped by a 20-year-old Tunisian (https://www.tag24.de/nachrichten/dresden-neustadt-katharinenstrasse-15-jaehrige-vergewaltigt-tunesier-in-haft-177858)
Three Syrian asylum seekers abuse four girls between the ages of 10 and 13 (http://www.wochenblatt.de/nachrichten/schwandorf/regionales/Vorfall-in-Weiden-Mehrere-Maedchen-unsittlich-beruehrt-die-Kripo-ermittelt;art1170,359285)
28 year old african accused of raping 16 year old (http://www.mz-web.de/zeitz/vergewaltigung-in-zeitz-28-jaehriger-tatverdaechtiger-sitzt-in-haft-24309564)
14-year-old refugee sexually abused female employee of asylum shelter (http://t.ostsee-zeitung.de/Extra/Polizei-Report/Aktuelle-Beitraege/Sexueller-Missbrauch-Polizei-ermittelt-gegen-Jugendlichen)
6 men from Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq arrested for molesting children in Koln swimming bath (http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/12415/3270117)
Asylumn seeker sexually assault 4 girls in Dresden swimming pool (http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/sexueller-uebergriff-im-schwimmbad-3299631.html)
Baden swimming pool bans male refugees due to overwhelming complaints of sexual assault (http://www.nwzonline.de/politik/baden-fuer-maennliche_a_6,0,2988551329.html)

As we lack actual police statisics for 2016 and likely will for another six months we can only ascertain the situation through independant record keeping. The Einzenfall map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z12D0zt-V4iI.kXGfjpzjOS1Q) is the largest collection of refugree crimes open to the public and the picture it paints is not pretty; hence why the immigrant crisis apologists are picking at every flaw to discredit it.

Picking at a couple of individual cases is a futile gesture that affects not overwhelming scale of it all, discredit a portion, put doubt in a category, all small quibbles when faced with a grand mass of blood and tears.


Greyblades usually has no idea what he's talking about. No need to berate him about that. It's his right to be ignorant and biased.

Gloating at the "victories" of others of which you do not contribute only exhibits cowardice, Samaritan. Failure not withstanding, at least husar has the courage to make an attempt at argument.

Put up or shut up.

[Husar]

Congratulations on picking up on your police force's euphamism of "Südländer" to side step the acknowledgement of north african/middle eastern suspects's actual origins. eg:

Completely missed the topic and the point, but thanks for the congratulations.
If you want to tell me that people who arrived sometime in 2016 spoke accent-free German when they committed their crimes, I have only this for you: :wall:

Why you talk about euphemisms is beyond me, it has nothing to do with what I said...

As for the rest of your post, no, the map is still garbage as you have been told several times now.

[Gilrandir]

If you want to tell me that people who arrived sometime in 2016 spoke accent-free German when they committed their crimes, I have only this for you: :wall:



Whaty if they for a hundred times rehearsed (with an authentic German tutor) the phrases they were to say while committing the crimes?

[Husar]

Whaty if they for a hundred times rehearsed (with an authentic German tutor) the phrases they were to say while committing the crimes?

What if Angela Merkel turned into Barbie when you kissed her on the mouth?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What if Angela Merkel turned into Barbie when you kissed her on the mouth?

Any frogs about instead?

[Gilrandir]

What if Angela Merkel turned into Barbie when you kissed her on the mouth?

You mean to say she is not? Wow, what a beginning of the year!

[Viking]

When Fragony tried that, she turned into a farm horse.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The problem is not action or in-action in the Middle East, it's lack of consistency.

We support the rebellion in Libya, gaining significant political capital, this triggers a mass uprising in Syria with the expectation that NATO will help topple Assad. We prevaricate (for years), the rebellion stalls, the country is ruined, the Arabs in the Middle East are convinced we only supported Libya for the oil. This leads to a general backlash, the liberal forces in Libya and elsewhere are marginalised and discredited by Western contamination.

Into the vacuum steps ISIS.

One could make the argument that if we had not intervened in Libya things would be better in Syria now but one could equally make the argument that if we had intervened promptly in Syria things would be better in both countries now.

It's easy to say "we should" or "we shouldn't" but it's impossible to know what would have happened either way. What can be said is that we do not have a coherent policy on the Middle East and so we react on an individual basis, and the Arabs interpret this as opportunism.

[Pannonian]

The problem is not action or in-action in the Middle East, it's lack of consistency.

We support the rebellion in Libya, gaining significant political capital, this triggers a mass uprising in Syria with the expectation that NATO will help topple Assad. We prevaricate (for years), the rebellion stalls, the country is ruined, the Arabs in the Middle East are convinced we only supported Libya for the oil. This leads to a general backlash, the liberal forces in Libya and elsewhere are marginalised and discredited by Western contamination.

Into the vacuum steps ISIS.

One could make the argument that if we had not intervened in Libya things would be better in Syria now but one could equally make the argument that if we had intervened promptly in Syria things would be better in both countries now.

It's easy to say "we should" or "we shouldn't" but it's impossible to know what would have happened either way. What can be said is that we do not have a coherent policy on the Middle East and so we react on an individual basis, and the Arabs interpret this as opportunism.

Only one side can afford to be absolutely consistent in all instances, and it's ISIS, because their nihilistic ideology costs little and already has centuries of fertile ground to plant in. Otherwise, you pick and choose. If picking and choosing cannot allow for a good result, then there is the consistent application of the other liberal argument, which is self determination. That would both fit in with cutting costs, and allows us to credibly clean our hands of the mess that is the Muslim world. The non-liberal argument of forceful imperialism was well and truly lost in the two world wars, so the liberal arguments of self determination and spreading liberal democracy are what we have to choose from. And one of them has been proven to not work in isolation, and is beyond our means across the region.

[Husar]

The problem is not action or in-action in the Middle East, it's lack of consistency.

We support the rebellion in Libya, gaining significant political capital, this triggers a mass uprising in Syria with the expectation that NATO will help topple Assad. We prevaricate (for years), the rebellion stalls, the country is ruined, the Arabs in the Middle East are convinced we only supported Libya for the oil. This leads to a general backlash, the liberal forces in Libya and elsewhere are marginalised and discredited by Western contamination.

Into the vacuum steps ISIS.

One could make the argument that if we had not intervened in Libya things would be better in Syria now but one could equally make the argument that if we had intervened promptly in Syria things would be better in both countries now.

It's easy to say "we should" or "we shouldn't" but it's impossible to know what would have happened either way. What can be said is that we do not have a coherent policy on the Middle East and so we react on an individual basis, and the Arabs interpret this as opportunism.

But isn't that basically the case? Some people right here on this board say quite openly that we should and do only care as long as they have some material use for us and humanitarian issues that go beyond that are liberal pinko concerns, who cares if they all die in a fire once we got all their oil.
And if anyone dares suggest that this could be remnants of us giving them ideas and leaders without all the education and knowledge that we (try to) give our citizens for the election etc., they're a race traitor right away. It's like we gave them (who we considered stupid monkeys at the time anyway) democracy and if they can't handle it properly without the centuries or decades of societal change and preparation we had before we got it, they're obviously stupid and it's all their own fault and let's not blame us for enslaving them etc., those are old stories anyway... :sweatdrop:

I fully agree that doing the right thing at this point is hard, I would begin by not interfering as much as we currently do, and by that I do not only mean militarily but also in terms of business. Of course we are afraid that the Chinese get all the business then at which point I just put on my Sanders-smile and say "Capitalist competition is a wonderful thing at all times, is it not?".
As a cynic I would say let the Chinese have it and we'll see how they do, in the worst case they may be a good distraction from us, in the best case they can actually help.

[Pannonian]

But isn't that basically the case? Some people right here on this board say quite openly that we should and do only care as long as they have some material use for us and humanitarian issues that go beyond that are liberal pinko concerns, who cares if they all die in a fire once we got all their oil.
And if anyone dares suggest that this could be remnants of us giving them ideas and leaders without all the education and knowledge that we (try to) give our citizens for the election etc., they're a race traitor right away. It's like we gave them (who we considered stupid monkeys at the time anyway) democracy and if they can't handle it properly without the centuries or decades of societal change and preparation we had before we got it, they're obviously stupid and it's all their own fault and let's not blame us for enslaving them etc., those are old stories anyway... :sweatdrop:

I fully agree that doing the right thing at this point is hard, I would begin by not interfering as much as we currently do, and by that I do not only mean militarily but also in terms of business. Of course we are afraid that the Chinese get all the business then at which point I just put on my Sanders-smile and say "Capitalist competition is a wonderful thing at all times, is it not?".
As a cynic I would say let the Chinese have it and we'll see how they do, in the worst case they may be a good distraction from us, in the best case they can actually help.

I now believe that Bush and Blair did indeed genuinely believe that liberal democracy could be spread to Iraq once the tyrant was toppled. But I thought it was delusional then given the history, and experience has shown that I'd underestimated the hostility that would be shown to us. Since, after we tried to do good, we got hit with accusation after accusation of imperialism, why should we do any more? We tried to bring liberal democracy to Iraq, but despite good intentions we were obviously in the wrong, as everyone keeps telling us. And now the suggested counter policy is met with accusations of leaving the brown people to the fate that the imperialists callously framed for them. Since we're evil imperialists either way, whether we do or we don't, why should we spend money on one option when we can save money on the other?

[Husar]

I now believe that Bush and Blair did indeed genuinely believe that liberal democracy could be spread to Iraq once the tyrant was toppled. But I thought it was delusional then given the history, and experience has shown that I'd underestimated the hostility that would be shown to us. Since, after we tried to do good, we got hit with accusation after accusation of imperialism, why should we do any more? We tried to bring liberal democracy to Iraq, but despite good intentions we were obviously in the wrong, as everyone keeps telling us. And now the suggested counter policy is met with accusations of leaving the brown people to the fate that the imperialists callously framed for them. Since we're evil imperialists either way, whether we do or we don't, why should we spend money on one option when we can save money on the other?

You missed the part of my point where I referred to ongoing imperialism and said fixing it now is relatively hard, but the least we can do is stop the things we're doing now, such as fishing away all their fish, putting their farmers out of work by exporting cheap, heavily subsidized bread and vegetables to them and so on. The evil imperialism I only brought up as a reason people can't just blame the problems solely on the supposed stupidity of the locals. Stop being so defensive about things I did not even say, please. :sweatdrop:

As for the German elections, looks like the AfD gained a few points since December (if the sample of around 1000 people is sufficiently large to not put that within the margin of error), here's is the new result from January 5th, interviews were performed on January 2nd and 3rd.

http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/crbilderstrecke-359~_origin-b769e55f-154d-4d57-b808-f6290b2df4a4.html

[Pannonian]

You missed the part of my point where I referred to ongoing imperialism and said fixing it now is relatively hard, but the least we can do is stop the things we're doing now, such as fishing away all their fish, putting their farmers out of work by exporting cheap, heavily subsidized bread and vegetables to them and so on. The evil imperialism I only brought up as a reason people can't just blame the problems solely on the supposed stupidity of the locals. Stop being so defensive about things I did not even say, please. :sweatdrop:

As for the German elections, looks like the AfD gained a few points since December (if the sample of around 1000 people is sufficiently large to not put that within the margin of error), here's is the new result from January 5th, interviews were performed on January 2nd and 3rd.

http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/crbilderstrecke-359~_origin-b769e55f-154d-4d57-b808-f6290b2df4a4.html

What right do we have in deciding how it should be fixed? You're putting forward the neocon argument of spreading the light wherever it is dark, but Iraq has already shown that the people you spread the light to may have a different idea of what is light and what is dark. The only philosophically consistent argument is self determination. That's treating every country as an equal. Not some as benighted heathens whom it is our duty to bring into the light. We're grown ups, and so are they. We have our personal space, and so do they. If we want to pursue transactions, they are to be agreed between two adults. Not imposed by a grown up on a child, in whatever fashion the grown up deems proper.

[Husar]

What right do we have in deciding how it should be fixed? You're putting forward the neocon argument of spreading the light wherever it is dark, but Iraq has already shown that the people you spread the light to may have a different idea of what is light and what is dark. The only philosophically consistent argument is self determination. That's treating every country as an equal. Not some as benighted heathens whom it is our duty to bring into the light. We're grown ups, and so are they. We have our personal space, and so do they. If we want to pursue transactions, they are to be agreed between two adults. Not imposed by a grown up on a child, in whatever fashion the grown up deems proper.

Now you sound like you basically agree with me and just don't know it.

The only difference is that I believe that as adults they also need some space to develop. Your approach seems to me like you denied your child an education and then complain that, now that it is an adult, it has no job. Then you proceed to call the adult a loser who cannot achieve anything in life and say that is entirely his own fault...

Have a good night.

[Pannonian]

Now you sound like you basically agree with me and just don't know it.

The only difference is that I believe that as adults they also need some space to develop. Your approach seems to me like you denied your child an education and then complain that, now that it is an adult, it has no job. Then you proceed to call the adult a loser who cannot achieve anything in life and say that is entirely his own fault...

Have a good night.

They're not my child, and they have a tendency to produce people who proclaim loyalty to a foreign state and execute acts of violent in western countries in their name, using our intended acts of goodwill as their reasoning. I strongly opposed said act back in 2003, but if, as people keep reminding me, we are to forever suffer the stigma of acting thus in 2003, then I can accept that, and accept the possibility that others may think differently from us, and accept other people's right to live their lives as they will, uninterfered with by us.

If they have these rights, then so do we, and the only practical way of reconciling these is to let them be and keep to ourselves. We were wrong to go into Iraq. So why repeat the mistake? If you're convinced you can do good, you should go ahead and do it yourself. Just as I accept their right to live their lives without our interference, so I respect your right to do whatever you want. And unlike you, I'd even respect your right to do so without subsequently moaning about it with Catch 22 arguments that frame you to be wrong whatever you do or don't do.

[Husar]

They're not my child

Oooh, I'm sorry, my fault.


And unlike you, I'd even respect your right to do so without subsequently moaning about it with Catch 22 arguments that frame you to be wrong whatever you do or don't do.

That makes no sense, you can't just stop being guilty by not wanting to be guilty and saying that I were mean.
You're still guilty.

[Pannonian]

Oooh, I'm sorry, my fault.

That makes no sense, you can't just stop being guilty by not wanting to be guilty and saying that I were mean.
You're still guilty.

There's that Catch 22 argument I mentioned. I'm guilty whatever I do or don't do, and there's nothing I can do or not do to avoid being guilty. Since that's the case and I'm guilty either way, I prefer the cheapest way of being guilty. I'm evil and I'm damned anyway, so let's at least save money.

[Husar]

There's that Catch 22 argument I mentioned. I'm guilty whatever I do or don't do, and there's nothing I can do or not do to avoid being guilty. Since that's the case and I'm guilty either way, I prefer the cheapest way of being guilty. I'm evil and I'm damned anyway, so let's at least save money.

No, that's deeply immoral, what you need to do is invite a Moroccan to live in your home, convert to Islam and become a vegan. :stare:

[AlBlackoso]

Bomb them all!!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Bomb them all!!

Welcome to the .org! Always good to have more quality posters among us.

[Greyblades]

German Politician Prevented Police Sharing Image of Christmas Market Attacker ‘to Prevent Racism’ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/24/politician-pictures-berlin-christmas-market-attacker-racism/)


German police and judiciary have accused Hamburg Justice Minister Till Steffen of delaying the release of pictures of the Christmas market attacker Anis Amri because he was worried about provoking “racist” comments on Facebook.

Green Party politician Steffen cited “privacy concerns” when he initially prevented law enforcers from releasing pictures of Anis Amri.

However, it has been claimed by members of the judiciary and the police that Steffen, who is the head of the judicial authority in Hamburg, denied the release of images of Amri because he was concerned it would incite racial hatred.

It is alleged that he only released images after a 12-hour delay following a call from German newspaper Bild.

Joachim Lenders, Hamburg’s chief of police, told Bild:

“It is incomprehensible to throw such a spanner in the works of investigators. Steffen is incompetent.”

A story that only reached the english speaking world through the daily mail and brietbart but was covered widely in the german media (#1 (https://www.welt.de/regionales/hamburg/article160544411/So-verzoegerte-Hamburg-die-Terrorfahndung.html), #2 (https://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/article209072343/Hat-Hamburg-die-Suche-nach-Anis-Amri-blockiert.html), #3 (http://www.epochtimes.de/politik/deutschland/skandal-in-hamburg-justizsenator-blockiert-fahndung-nach-anis-a-erst-als-bild-anruft-passiert-etwas-a2007275.html), #4 (http://www.shz.de/regionales/hamburg/hamburgs-justizsenator-wegen-spaeter-facebook-fahndung-in-bedraengnis-id15669556.html), #5 (https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/Hamburgs-Justizsenator-wegen-spaeter-Facebook-Fahndung-in-Bedraengnis,steffen368.html))


Completely missed the topic and the point, but thanks for the congratulations.
If you want to tell me that people who arrived sometime in 2016 spoke accent-free German when they committed their crimes, I have only this for you: :wall:

Why you talk about euphemisms is beyond me, it has nothing to do with what I said...

As for the rest of your post, no, the map is still garbage as you have been told several times now.

Hm. Interesting thought: Germans are unable to understand euphamisms, might explain why goebells was so successful.

I hit the topic on the nose, you are trying to dilute the map's coverage, imply it is riddled with false reports but I've found your examples to be easy to shoot down.

The german police has frequently used the term southerner when describing middle easterners to muddy the waters and leave open the idea that a suspect might have been an italian, spanish or greek. All in the name of avoiding racism of course.

The accent is hardly worth mentioning, wouldnt be the first time that a long term or second generation immigrant has contributed to the crimes on german streets, I understand you have a sizeable turkish minority from before the crisis, and while they havent acted out like the north africans they havent exactly been among the most well behaved of minorities. (http://www.unz.com/akarlin/immigrant-crime-in-germany/)

The best you have done is show that perhaps there are pre crisis immigrant crimes included, which is to be expected due to the third party nature of the map being unable to differentiate, and rather unhelpful for you as it only adds to my point of immigration from these parts being a bad idea if even the vetted ranks of the previous waves still let through (or produced) thieves.

I wish you would address all my points as I do yours, I cant tell if you are ignoring half my posts because you dont notice them or cant answer them, you used to be thorough once, back when your dismissals of sources carried some actual weight.