View Full Version : French Presidential Election
edyzmedieval
04-22-2017, 19:24
Presidential elections tomorrow. 4 way race, this is going to be very very complex to untangle.
Tristuskhan
04-22-2017, 20:22
So you want us to annex Brittany, yes?
Can do, just as soon as we finish one of these Aircraft carriers and get some tanks our of storage.
Already tried. Way too often during the last nine centuries, last time 20 years ago. When the Brits evacuated after the 2008 financial crises housing prices got back to a normal low. So please, please stay up north. Send some ladies.
About the carrier, isn't it overkill, Brittany beeing less than 200 miles from Cornwall, or has the RAF fallen so low it can't even reach the next door?
Presidential elections tomorrow. 4 way race, this is going to be very very complex to untangle.
I'm going to cast my vote and flee due west for three weeks.
Sarmatian
04-22-2017, 20:33
So please, please stay up north. Send some ladies.
From Britain? Are you that desperate? :grin:
From Britain? Are you that desperate? :grin:
Mind please... I am married with a British... Half Irish, all right, but still half English...:stare:
Tristuskhan
04-22-2017, 23:27
From Britain? Are you that desperate? :grin:
I wrote "Ladies", not "average vulgar english females".
For conversation, you know...
https://youtu.be/qgbOMkVpcDE
and a classic:
https://youtu.be/Pg3qH71QF9Q
Today...
Right. The trap worked. Political fascism or economical fascism...?
Probably I will abstain. Can't vote for Le Pen, but on the same token can't vote for Macron... Sad day...
Seamus Fermanagh
04-23-2017, 20:50
Vote early and vote often.
Strike For The South
04-24-2017, 02:59
C'est le ton qui fait la chanson.
Right. The trap worked. Political fascism or economical fascism...?
Probably I will abstain. Can't vote for Le Pen, but on the same token can't vote for Macron... Sad day...
They are neither but wouldn't vote on either, but what's wrong with abstaining, I never vote. Did this time in Dutch elections though because of a very moderate libertarian-type newcommer.
Gilrandir
05-05-2017, 16:59
For French speakers out there:
https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/dossier/dossier-largent-russe-du-front-national
And a brief run down in English (couldn't find other sources, perhaps someone will):
http://en.censor.net.ua/news/438729/le_pen_got_9m_euros_from_kremlin_for_supporting_russias_policy_in_ukraine_media
Greyblades
05-05-2017, 17:15
Seems off, if russia wanted to fund Le pen why'd they give them a loan instead of just plain funding them?
What proof is it that this loan was gifted?
Mediapart is quite good at it...
Not that will change the vote. I will abstain as I can't vote for Macron, but can't for Le Pen (Fascist. Fragony: The FN was created by former French SS of the 33 SS Charlemagne... So fascist is an improvement...).
For the ones who want to improve their French
https://www.challenges.fr/politique/la-machine-a-cash-du-fn-l-integralite-de-l-enquete-des-juges-van-ruymbeke-et-buresi_471011
Gilrandir
05-05-2017, 19:54
Seems off, if russia wanted to fund Le pen why'd they give them a loan instead of just plain funding them?
What proof is it that this loan was gifted?
The loan was received in 2014. Any news of its being paid back (with interest)?
Mediapart is quite good at it...
Not that will change the vote. I will abstain as I can't vote for Macron, but can't for Le Pen (Fascist. Fragony: The FN was created by former French SS of the 33 SS Charlemagne... So fascist is an improvement...).
For the ones who want to improve their French
https://www.challenges.fr/politique/la-machine-a-cash-du-fn-l-integralite-de-l-enquete-des-juges-van-ruymbeke-et-buresi_471011
Could you go into more details about Macron?
I haven't really looked myself, but the news here paint him as a French Tony Blair leading a French New Labour, but his party is brand new and it will require a coalition to get anything done.
Could you go into more details about Macron?
I haven't really looked myself, but the news here paint him as a French Tony Blair leading a French New Labour, but his party is brand new and it will require a coalition to get anything done.
I can, but I have to warn you, I vote against him.
He is a brilliant man, university and speak English quite fluently which is rare in France. He worked as trader at Rothschild bank where he made some good money. He became a kind of grey eminence in the former socialist party and became Ministry of Finances, I think. He is a big believer in market economy, really, there is video of him in Youtube explaining to workers who just lost their jobs it is a good thing... He is definitively arrogant, but is brilliant. He is for the destruction of all social protections (including the Code du Travail, the law that put the rules for business) and will destroy them without vote of the Parliament... Thatcher in a rosy pinko compared to him.
He is one of the responsible for the massive strikes and demonstration in France last year, and do not shy away to put opponent/unionists in jail or giving orders to the police to shoot rubber bullet straight to the demonstrator...
If he had to face any one else than Le pen, he would have no chance. But he is supported but all media and the propaganda effort in his favour was massive and well organised.
First, made Le Pen a bit more glamorous, more normal, and shoot to all others potential opponents.
Then hide the fact he has no programme, and present him as "new".
Now, he is against Le Pen, who never had a chance because a goat would be elected against Le Pen.
Now, what the media (and their owners, such Dassault (Air Plane -Mirages and rafales) Lagardere (weapons) Lafarge (concrete) and others is to convince to unit again fascism and give to their puppet as legitimacy he hasn't.
Figures are these: He has a bit more than 20 %, Le Pen same, Fillon a bit less than 20 % so Mélenchon. The others got what left (and I think 20% abstention, people who didn't go to vote). So the reality is 80 % are against him. So his bosses have to create a pseudo agreement, so the "Republican Front" in order to reach a percentage a bit like North Korea or the former Socialist Republics. It did work before, Chirac vs Le Pen (Father) got 82%, then claimed to have been elected for his program...
This is because in one month we have elections of the Parliament. Traditionally, the French give a majority to the new president, who then will pick his Prime Minister in the new majority. So, you can see the problem... What if the French don't?
What is new is the anger in the French voters. So the media have to persuade them that he have to have their vote for Leadership (a bit like May does here, not for a program, just because), but it doesn't work. Not really.
As one who publicly said I will abstain, my FB account saw more "attacks" than before: I was an ally of FN because who don't vote against vote for (pure BS), we have to built a dam against fascism, ignoring the fact that if you don't drain the river the water carry on to go-up, and the reasons why the FN is going up is directly linked with the 9,000,000 poor and 3,000,000 unemployed, thanks to the policy followed during the last 25 years... In brief, a bit like the rats wanting to eradicate the Black Plague.
I hope this answer a bit your questions.
The problem is the growing frustration of the French, and we are not known for our respect of rules, especially when the games are rigged. Me and friends are feeling trapped and conned. The confiscation of our democracy by the oligarchy in power stats to be too apparent. We still didn't digest the hold-up on our "no" vote against the European Treaty which became a "yes" under Sarkolland.
In the other hand, in order to maintain their profit and their powers, the members of the oligarchy, in the common and shared interest, nothing as dark as a conspiracy, can't let go without a fight.
Macron is a right tool for it.
Montmorency
05-06-2017, 19:38
Brenus, can you tell us anything about the Macron email/data dump (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-leaks-idUSKBN1812AZ)?
Not really. It is on my FB, but because it is 1 day before elections, we can't have any potential political information about candidates. It is weird because we all talk politic each time we can, but nothing can be official...
This one was my candidate. And his movement will be my vote. Insoumis I am.
https://youtu.be/JzPOK2pcev8
HopAlongBunny
05-07-2017, 00:24
Good vid. I understand bugger all in French and less in AMSLam, but I liked the score :)
Just next time, give the signer the score ahead of time; it looks really cool when they sync.
No good choices for the Frenchies, I wouldn't be surprised if the election gets a national boycot, kinda hoping they do that. The FN hasn't changed don't be fooled into thinking that they did, it is still the same party with the same supporters, and posterboy Macron is just as bad in a different way, pick your poison, or don't at all I wouldn't
French election is much more interesting than the Brittish one, it's basicly a Frexit referendum. A Nexit is still burning where you can't see it, call me interested and file me under H for Hopefull
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-07-2017, 18:58
So, apparently at least one person voted for De Gaulle.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-07-2017, 19:25
Macron.
*Shrug*
Greyblades
05-07-2017, 19:25
Hope Macron can avoid the front national winning in 2022 by actually dealing with France's problems with immigration and the EU.
Of course he wont, but one can dream.
The fight against Président Macron is starting...
https://youtu.be/aPPMkj4G6Gs
Législatives to come (Parliament)...
BTW, Le Pen is third... 1st Macron, 2nd abstention, 3rd Le Pen...:yes::yes::laugh4:
HopAlongBunny
05-07-2017, 21:37
What little I've found so far is not encouraging.
His selling point "not Le pen" is not very informative.
Lauded for his ability to occupy both sides of the fence on issues, is likewise pretty void of information.
Pro-business seems his calling card, but there exist several shades of such an outlook. If he is going to bust unions will he likewise bust producer's/manufacturing associations? professional associations? and other such blots on the free markets.
Of course much will now ride on how the Legislative elections turn out.
Sarmatian
05-07-2017, 21:43
It's a double edged sword. French economy now needs a period of stable, high growth that will be felt by the average Frenchmen or Le Pen might actually have a realistic shot in the next election.
What little I've found so far is not encouraging.
His selling point "not Le pen" is not very informative.
Lauded for his ability to occupy both sides of the fence on issues, is likewise pretty void of information.
Pro-business seems his calling card, but there exist several shades of such an outlook. If he is going to bust unions will he likewise bust producer's/manufacturing associations? professional associations? and other such blots on the free markets.
Of course much will now ride on how the Legislative elections turn out.
Yeah...
It's a double edged sword. French economy now needs a period of stable, high growth that will be felt by the average Frenchmen or Le Pen might actually have a realistic shot in the next election.
France needs a growth compatible with ecology, the development of new technologies, needs a new constitution for a better democratic control on politicians. I think it exists in some states in the USA.
The reality is France 67 Millions inhabitants, 47 millions voters ,the new president is elected by default with 17 Millions votes.
Montmorency
05-08-2017, 00:24
Brenus
A comment from the NYT article (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/07/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-france-election-marine-le-pen.html) on the result:
Absolutely thrilled! I'm a naturalized French citizen and in the more than 40 years I've been living in France, it's the very first time I have seen a vote for the future rather than the status quo or a return to the past. I am now hoping that we can create a really positive dynamic for the legislative elections in early June leading to a broad coalition from center left to center right with the legitimacy to break down the rigidities that have lead to the relative decline of the last 30 years.
Listening to the commentary on the talk shows this evening, it is already clear where the main opposition will come from, the so called "progressive" hard left that in reality is the most conservative segment of the French population, ready to go to any extreme to preserve the privileges of the highly protected French public sector employees .
That being said, this evening I am mostly proud of France and the French who have largely upended the predictions of the Anglo-Saxon press, much of which seemed to be almost hoping for a Le Pen victory.
Montmorency
05-08-2017, 00:27
Of course, among the American/Anglo hard left "liberal" and "centrist" are considered fighting words.
Macron it is I guess, not sure I'm happy with that, odd to prefer FN
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-08-2017, 02:07
It is odd, that on a visceral level I find Macron more objectionable, even though rationally I find him preferable.
Rather like Blair in that regard.
"Listening to the commentary on the talk shows this evening, it is already clear where the main opposition will come from, the so called "progressive" hard left that in reality is the most conservative segment of the French population, ready to go to any extreme to preserve the privileges of the highly protected French public sector employees ." Bla bla bla. None sens. Probably didn't have a clue of the programme.
Typical conservative answering machine when confronted with something new...
You are "hard" left nowadays when you ask for drinkable water and fresh air...
The amount of voters is supposedly an all-time low. I can totally sympathise with those who just didn't vote, as I understand that's a bit unusual in France, I see it as a screw you both.
edyzmedieval
05-08-2017, 13:16
Almost 75% voted in the election - that's better than anyone thought, pollsters were putting numbers of more than 20% absence. It's only been around 25%, which is about 5% on average higher than the 2012 election.
Gilrandir
05-08-2017, 14:15
Hope Macron can avoid the front national winning in 2022 by actually dealing with France's problems with immigration and the EU.
He has less time than until 2022. Very soon (in summer?) France will have parliamentary elections where Le Pen might return with a vengeance.
edyzmedieval
05-08-2017, 14:53
Macron now has approximately 3 months to present a credible platform, alongside with his candidates for the parliament, which will shape up the policy of his presidency.
A very very short period of time, but a good sign is that the Republicans and perhaps even the Socialists are willing to actively negotiate and discuss with Macron to set up a strong platform to get a majority.
I predict that in 5 years from now, Macron will enjoy the same popularity Hollande does.
Still better than the far-right witch, she seemed as competent and humane as our Defense Minister. A big thanks to her father, whose bigoted legacy still stops desperate Frenchmen from voting for these reactionaries.
edyzmedieval
05-08-2017, 15:32
Macron knows the ins and outs of the economy, and he's worked for Rotschild when it comes to banking, so he knows his grips.
One thing that is going to be very very contentious in France is his desire for labor reform - that will be a very tough challenge.
He has less time than until 2022. Very soon (in summer?) France will have parliamentary elections where Le Pen might return with a vengeance.
I don't think so as parliamentary elections are not that short cut. In Presidential, we use to say first round you choose, 2nd you eliminate... Parliamentary are more tactical. You can maintain a candidature if you reach something 12,5%, so more alliances can be done, i.e. a leftist can ally with a green, a conservative with a fascist, etc.
Macron now has approximately 3 months to present a credible platform, alongside with his candidates for the parliament, which will shape up the policy of his presidency.
A very very short period of time, but a good sign is that the Republicans and perhaps even the Socialists are willing to actively negotiate and discuss with Macron to set up a strong platform to get a majority.
To ally himself would be a political suicide. The 1st round election showed a clear rejection of the "old" parties as they were all involved in the river that flooded and created the Front National against which we we compelled to built a dam.
He is in a bit trap, but contrary of what media reports, the guy is no greeny for F*** S****. He was one of most important minister of the future former President...
edyzmedieval
05-10-2017, 22:43
He has already an alliance with the Democrats led by Bayrou. But that was from before.
He needs political allies as well as fresh faces. If you do a political alliance but most are still fresh faces, a compromise to govern will be accepted.
He has already an alliance with the Democrats led by Bayrou. But that was from before.
He needs political allies as well as fresh faces. If you do a political alliance but most are still fresh faces, a compromise to govern will be accepted.
Bayrou, last time I checked is 4% and part of the 23% who voted Macron.Macron is not a man of compromise...He is a believer in the Saint Market Economy, Holly is its Name... So he will not comprise on solutions he believes against all evidences will reduce poverty (note: having a job is not being out of poverty). So he might be able to rally to his "panache blanc" part of the rightist parties, but he will not have a majority in the country.
He might have a majority at the Parliament, because the system is rigged to favour the conservative parties. In the "red" parts, you need 200,000 votes to be MP, in the "whites" one, 125,000.
however, French are not known to accept laws because it the law. So it will go in the streets if he push too far legally. To lead a country like France, you need an agreement, a political agreement with the masses. and he hasn't yet.
He sold winds, he might get the hurricane.
Odd situation, socialists backing someone who isn't exactly one to say the least, it's asking for trouble
edyzmedieval
05-13-2017, 00:40
Macron will do some compromise and political negotiation - he knows that, he's got experience with it, even in banking there's a ton of negotiation to be had, otherwise you won't be a successful investment banker.
Obtaining majority in the Parliament is key and I'm fairly sure he's keen on that part because he already came up with the list of 576 candidates out of 577 places.
Ooops, Bayrou betrayed by Macron...
YEAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Marion Maréchal-Le Pen quits politic at least at the moment, F.N. going down despite apparent victory, starting of the night of the Long-Knives?
French politic might surprise again!!!
Greyblades
05-13-2017, 14:25
They have to be in power for a purge to make sense strategically.
Marine Le pen is likely going quiet to allow the media to focus on macron withouut distraction, every time he underperforms Le Pen can pop up and say "I told you so" and reap a couple votes for the next election.
They have to be in power for a purge to make sense strategically.
Marine Le pen is likely going quiet to allow the media to focus on macron withouut distraction, every time he underperforms Le Pen can pop up and say "I told you so" and reap a couple votes for the next election.
No. She was so bad during her debate v-Macron that she lost something like 8%. I am not a big believer of Polls, but remember she was given as front runner at the 1st round, then beaten at the 2nd, whoever was in front of her.
If you can follow the extreme-right/fascist channels on youtube, they considered this election as a defeat. Not because they thought she could win, but that she could climb towards the 50%. And she crushed. Her niece is seeing the problem and decided to withdrawn to prepared positions. Some key figures of the movement are now in disgrace as the tactics are now questioned.
The best illustration of this is the FN should be seen as THE opposition by the Macronist media.
But the fire power is aimed at Mélenchon, from the France Insoumise, leftist.
Reason is Le Pen and Macron have the same agenda in term of economical agenda, but differ on Europe... Fascism doesn't scare Capitalism.
edyzmedieval
05-13-2017, 17:23
Care to elaborate on that, Brenus? What do you mean about Macron?
(genuine question)
Greyblades
05-13-2017, 18:01
No. She was so bad during her debate v-Macron that she lost something like 8%. I am not a big believer of Polls, but remember she was given as front runner at the 1st round, then beaten at the 2nd, whoever was in front of her.
If you can follow the extreme-right/fascist channels on youtube, they considered this election as a defeat. Not because they thought she could win, but that she could climb towards the 50%. And she crushed. Her niece is seeing the problem and decided to withdrawn to prepared positions. Some key figures of the movement are now in disgrace as the tactics are now questioned.
The best illustration of this is the FN should be seen as THE opposition by the Macronist media.
But the fire power is aimed at Mélenchon, from the France Insoumise, leftist.
Reason is Le Pen and Macron have the same agenda in term of economical agenda, but differ on Europe... Fascism doesn't scare Capitalism.
I'm not sure how this relates to my post.
She underperformed from expectations, the party may still underperform, but with every terrorist attack and migrant riot over the next few years that macron fails to stop she will go out and say I told you so and the country will edge towards her.
As for that last line; are you kidding me? Le Pen is as milquetoast a fascist as it gets and the western media were still in panic mode up until the debate.
Le Pen gave up. She will not go as candidate to be a MP. It is official...
Greyblades
05-13-2017, 21:11
Citation needed, all I've seen is her daughter quitting politics.
Gilrandir
05-14-2017, 05:35
Reason is Le Pen and Macron have the same agenda in term of economical agenda, but differ on Europe...
And Melenchon shares with Le Pen her love of Putin. Under a close scrutiny everyone will be found to have similar views on something.
The childless mutti is delighted at least, first tanks now banks.
Nexit pretty please. Ain't going to happen I know, the fourth-reich is too strong
And Melenchon shares with Le Pen her love of Putin. Under a close scrutiny everyone will be found to have similar views on something.
That is of course a lie. Not one you create, one you repeat...
However, I give credit you don't read French, so question this would be difficult...
The Russian equivalent of Mélenchon is in jail thanks to Putin...
Citation needed, all I've seen is her daughter quitting politics.
Daughter? Her niece said she is quitting because she wants to be with her daughter. She just separated from partner apparently...
Greyblades
05-14-2017, 14:54
Niece, daughter, regardless I have not seen any indication Marine herself has quit politics and am wondering where you are sourcing your comment.
Not Marine. Well, technically, she has resigned from FN when she was qualified for the 2nd Round...
Montmorency
05-15-2017, 04:15
Wow, Macron's wife was his high-school teacher.
...Well, good for him!
Je trouve Madame #BrigitteMacron bien plus jeune et bien plus élégante que tous ces détracteurs que je lis.. et surtout à quoi ça sert!? pic.twitter.com/TR0sruvU7d
Gilrandir
05-15-2017, 12:26
That is of course a lie. Not one you create, one you repeat...
However, I give credit you don't read French, so question this would be difficult...
The Russian equivalent of Mélenchon is in jail thanks to Putin...
AFAIK, you don't read either Ukrainian or Russian, yet you could form your opinion of niceties of Ukrainian politics.
I don't read French, yet I can read some French sources in English:
http://www.france24.com/en/20170413-france-melenchon-far-leftist-giving-presidential-election-frontrunners-run-money
Critics have slammed Mélenchon as soft on Russian President Vladimir Putin’s expansionism, tending as the Frenchman does to view Russia as a bulwark against US imperialism. “It’s the moment to negotiate borders,” Mélenchon said during one televised debate. “We must discuss all borders. For example, the border between Russia and Ukraine, is it at the extremity of Crimea or before?” he asked, raising the ire of an incredulous Benoît Hamon, the Socialist candidate, in particular.
As well as others:
https://intmassmedia.com/2017/04/21/melenchon-and-russia-that-we-are-confused/
His Advisor on international Affairs of the George kuzmanović (Djordje Kuzmanovic) said on March 28, the Association “Franco-Russian dialogue” that the post of President of the Republic Jean-Luc Mélenchon would have established “a warm and (…) a partnership with Vladimir Putin or any other President elected by Russians”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/18/jean-luc-melenchon-germany-putin-french-presidential-race
Mélenchon is essentially a nationalist, despite his internationalist credo. And his sympathies for autocratic strongmen such as Vladimir Putin or Hugo Chávez cannot be easily swept aside, as if these were just missteps in an otherwise promising platform.
But what is most striking about the far-left leader is how he’s systematically refrained from ascribing any responsibility to Russia over the war in Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea
https://qz.com/961177/french-election-2017-marine-lepen-and-emmanuel-macron-lead-but-the-big-winner-in-the-french-election-will-be-vladimir-putin/
A fiery demagogue in the communist tradition, Melenchon, is staunchly anti-American, detests the EU and globalization, and heavily favors Russia on geopolitical issues like the Ukraine crisis. He also opposes what he calls “illegal” sanctions against annexation of the Crimea.
http://www.politico.eu/article/jean-luc-melenchon-french-far-left-firebrand-campaign-of-revenge-election-president/
The other candidate that Mélenchon’s foreign policy outlook chimes with is National Front leader Marine Le Pen. On the EU, NATO and Russia, there is scarcely any daylight between them.
http://www.euronews.com/2017/04/14/jean-luc-melenchon-what-do-we-know-of-his-policies
International
develop closer ties with Russia.
Evidently, those "lies" about John Cougar Mellencamp are shared by too many people.
Strike For The South
05-15-2017, 17:20
Oh look they elected a globalist banker
shock
awe
Greyblades
05-15-2017, 18:13
Worse, a French globalist banker.
AFAIK, you don't read either Ukrainian or Russian, yet you could form your opinion of niceties of Ukrainian politics.
I don't read French, yet I can read some French sources in English: Evidently, those "lies" about John Cougar Mellencamp are shared by too many people.
I didn't form opinion based on other opinions as you do. But we had this "debate" before I won't start again.
You believe in the truth by repetition. Not me.
Concerning Mélenchon, the "international" media repeat what the French Media are saying. It is as simple that the proof by facebook, as I doubt they have each of them a specialist on French politic.
When you are not in favour to start a war against Russia you are pro-Putin. None on the link you provide is able to give one reference of Mélenchon's pro-Putin stance, or a fact. Or if you want more details about who use chemical weapons, you are pro-Assad.
All opponents to Macron/Holland were painted as Pro-Putin, pro Assad, etc.
Any way, I will be able to convince you as you don't want to have evidence when Putin's name is mentioned. So...
Gilrandir
05-16-2017, 17:02
I didn't form opinion based on other opinions as you do.
So you formed your opinion on events in Ukraine based on personal experience?
You believe in the truth by repetition. Not me.
And you believe in world conspiracy against someone.
It is as simple that the proof by facebook, as I doubt they have each of them a specialist on French politic.
I doubt NONE of them do.
None on the link you provide is able to give one reference of Mélenchon's pro-Putin stance, or a fact.
The France24 reference containing Melenchon's citation says about his suggestion to "discuss the borders", first of all between Russia and Ukraine. Doesn't it chime with what Russia desires after annexing Crimea? And doesn't he realize what Pandora's box he wants to open by starting such a discussion?
1st question: when I see the insignia of the 2nd SS Das Reich on a Ukrainian Unit, I don't really need a detail opinion to make mine...
2nd question: No need a world conspiracy, just all media referring to one unique source... And conversion of interests as well...
3rd question: You are right, they just repeat what their French colleagues are saying...
4th question: Nope. Mélenchon did stress out that borders were not discussed. Not there is a need to discuss. He was quite clear that in fact he is against the annexation of Crimea by Russia, and it should be negotiated for a return (and the conditions allowing it) of Crimea in Ukraine. But of course, that wouldn't do it for "friend of Putin"...
Tristuskhan
05-16-2017, 22:48
Worse, a French globalist banker.
The worst ones, ask anyone.
Well, election stolen, now we'll have the worst of Hollande cooked by right-leaning clones...
Our Prime Minister is an ex-Areva executive... well Areva costs us billions every year, having been foolishly managed for fifteen years (and it still is). The man knows what it is to be a mercenary: first working to bleed the Republic, successfully, then beeing chosed to drive this same Republic out of mud. I already love this one.
Oh my... Voted Mélenchon on round one, blank on the second one. In my village, the Heiress got 35 first, 46 second. Pity. I'll soon leave for a place where she got 15 and 22. And will feel better there. Heading back far west, just in time. Bye-bye froggy white trash, Breton again on the first of July.
Shoud have voted for this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Cheminade , who wants to send the all morons on Planet Mars. Or did I misunderstand?
Gilrandir
05-17-2017, 09:52
1st question: when I see the insignia of the 2nd SS Das Reich on a Ukrainian Unit, I don't really need a detail opinion to make mine...
Seeing one picture (like it was with Tyagnybok "making a nazi salute") is enough to form an opinion (like Ukraine is ruled by Nazis)? Then you are prone to jumping to conclusions and needless generalizations.
2nd question: No need a world conspiracy, just all media referring to one unique source... And conversion of interests as well...
I see. All the world is against a poor innocent man. He is in a besieged fortress. That somehow sounds familiar...
4th question: Nope. Mélenchon did stress out that borders were not discussed. Not there is a need to discuss. He was quite clear that in fact he is against the annexation of Crimea by Russia, and it should be negotiated for a return (and the conditions allowing it) of Crimea in Ukraine. But of course, that wouldn't do it for "friend of Putin"...
I refer you to his advisor's words that Melenchon would like to establish a warm partnership with Putin. He is against annexation but he wants to be a friend of the annexer? :dizzy2:
Name of the adviser? By the way, this prove you don't know how the guys work... Mélenchon's position is Russia is not an enemy... Again, I think, and I don't blame you for this, you rely on polluted sources...
The 2 others present no interest.
Seamus Fermanagh
05-17-2017, 18:36
This is still about France, right?
You know Gilrandir. You can speak on how to make an apple pie and he will blame Putin for the sugar coating...
Gilrandir
05-18-2017, 11:45
Name of the adviser?
I gave this quote, but you seem to need repeating. Here you go:
His Advisor on international Affairs of the George kuzmanović (Djordje Kuzmanovic) said on March 28, the Association “Franco-Russian dialogue” that the post of President of the Republic Jean-Luc Mélenchon would have established “a warm and (…) a partnership with Vladimir Putin or any other President elected by Russians”.
Again, I think, and I don't blame you for this, you rely on polluted sources...
If all the sources I referred to are polluted, perhaps the problem is not with the sources, but with the object they talk about?
Gilrandir
05-18-2017, 11:48
You know Gilrandir. You can speak on how to make an apple pie and he will blame Putin for the sugar coating...
Sugar coating for an apple-pie? ~:confused:
Seamus Fermanagh
05-18-2017, 18:57
Sugar coating for an apple-pie? ~:confused:
French Apple traditionally has a thin glaze (think very thin royal icing) on the top of the pie.
"His Advisor on international Affairs of the George kuzmanović (Djordje Kuzmanovic) said on March 28, the Association “Franco-Russian dialogue” that the post of President of the Republic Jean-Luc Mélenchon would have established “a warm and (…) a partnership with Vladimir Putin or any other President elected by Russians”." Right.
"Jean-Luc Melenchon wants to build relations of cooperation on science, culture and peace with Russia, whoever is its leader," Kuzmanovic said on his Twitter. This is the real one... Sorry... Took me some time and efforts to find it, but there is nothing I wouldn't do for an Organist...
“Un oubli”, explique celui qui a notamment été mis en cause en début d’année par le journaliste Nicolas Hénin dans son livre La France russe (éd. Fayard, 19 euros). Présenté comme la “muse de Mélenchon sur la question russe, ce dernier était situé sur ‘un axe rouge-brun’. Des “allégations complètement fausses” que l’intéressé dément formellement .» Il dément mais Besse Desmoulières répète quand même. Il s’agit pourtant de la reprise d’un ragot d’extrême droite sur fond de délit de sale nom. Monsieur Kuzmanovic est français, et l’origine serbe de ses parents ne donne pas le droit de le stigmatiser. Il n’est en rien ma « muse russe », expression dont les sous-entendus sont assez clairs pour me révulser de dégoût pour son auteure. Ce que les pécores qui pérorent ne peuvent savoir en lisant les vieilles fiches des collègues, c’est que Djordje a servi dans l’armée française sous drapeau ONU en Afghanistan. Suggérer qu’il soit un « rouge brun » est une infamie gratuitement énoncée sans le début d’un argument." Jean Luc Mélenchon in http://melenchon.fr/2016/11/14/le-monde-renoue-avec-le-melenchon-bashing/
That is the perfect illustration of what I said: France 24 repeating an "information" published by "Le Monde"... Information without any basis.
If you want, I give you Mélenchon's site, then you go to research the name of his "adviser" and you see the result. Deal?
http://melenchon.fr/
Here, you can find what Mélenchon really said:"Nous Français, n'avons rien à faire dans une histoire pareille, nous n'avons rien à faire à encourager les provocations contre les Russes, cela dit sans sympathie pour le gouvernement russe", "We French, have nothing to do in such story, we have nothing to do in encouraging provocations against Russia, this said with no sympathy for the Russian Government"
https://www.marianne.net/politique/jean-luc-melenchon-ce-qu-il-vraiment-dit-sur-la-russie-poutine-et-la-syrie
Gilrandir
05-19-2017, 12:07
“Un oubli”, explique celui qui a notamment été mis en cause en début d’année par le journaliste Nicolas Hénin dans son livre La France russe (éd. Fayard, 19 euros). Présenté comme la “muse de Mélenchon sur la question russe, ce dernier était situé sur ‘un axe rouge-brun’. Des “allégations complètement fausses” que l’intéressé dément formellement .» Il dément mais Besse Desmoulières répète quand même. Il s’agit pourtant de la reprise d’un ragot d’extrême droite sur fond de délit de sale nom. Monsieur Kuzmanovic est français, et l’origine serbe de ses parents ne donne pas le droit de le stigmatiser. Il n’est en rien ma « muse russe », expression dont les sous-entendus sont assez clairs pour me révulser de dégoût pour son auteure. Ce que les pécores qui pérorent ne peuvent savoir en lisant les vieilles fiches des collègues, c’est que Djordje a servi dans l’armée française sous drapeau ONU en Afghanistan. Suggérer qu’il soit un « rouge brun » est une infamie gratuitement énoncée sans le début d’un argument." Jean Luc Mélenchon in http://melenchon.fr/2016/11/14/le-monde-renoue-avec-le-melenchon-bashing/
Now what's the use of trying to show something to a person who can't read it?
That is the perfect illustration of what I said: France 24 repeating an "information" published by "Le Monde"... Information without any basis.
If you want, I give you Mélenchon's site, then you go to research the name of his "adviser" and you see the result. Deal?
http://melenchon.fr/
Do you enjoy urging non-French speakers to find something on a french site?
"We French, have nothing to do in such story, we have nothing to do in encouraging provocations against Russia, this said with no sympathy for the Russian Government"
https://www.marianne.net/politique/jean-luc-melenchon-ce-qu-il-vraiment-dit-sur-la-russie-poutine-et-la-syrie
The fact that you identify with the man makes me cautious in accepting this quote at a face value. Can the quote you give exclude others of a different nature?
Generally, I believe similar opinions that come from different quarters more that one opinion of an emotionally invested individual. I see no ground to suspect all sources (especially the British ones - I referred to the Guardian) in attempt to blacken a foreign politician. And I greatly doubt your claim that these sources neither understand anything in French politics nor have someone among their staff who do.
Sarmatian
05-19-2017, 14:46
Generally, I believe similar opinions that come from different quarters more that one opinion of an emotionally invested individual.
It was about time.
Tristuskhan
05-19-2017, 17:03
Do you enjoy urging non-French speakers to find something on a french site?
Of course he does, who doesn't?
The fact that you identify with the man makes me cautious in accepting this quote at a face value. Can the quote you give exclude others of a different nature?
Melenchon has a very awkward leniency towards Maduro and the Castros. But no tenderness for Putin or North Korea, never. I'm not Brenus, maybe you can trust me. He just said Russia is an important actor and as such shall not be treated lightly. Isn't it what you want to make us understand too?
Generally, I believe similar opinions that come from different quarters more that one opinion of an emotionally invested individual. I see no ground to suspect all sources (especially the British ones - I referred to the Guardian) in attempt to blacken a foreign politician. And I greatly doubt your claim that these sources neither understand anything in French politics nor have someone among their staff who do.
Those sources have repeatedly proved unable to understand their own country's politics. Their staffs all come from the same brain-factories. Understanding there is still strenght in western communism is just out of question: they MUST support everything that looks a bit like good old Stalin, you know... And have councellors making the link with the Fascist. Because commies always seek for a Ribbentropp-Molotov Pact, you know...
"Generally, I believe similar opinions that come from different quarters more that one opinion of an emotionally invested individual." That is why I gave you 2 possibilities: Marianne is not known to be nice towards Mélenchon. Founder is more Bayrou (Center Right, so Rightist)...
Gilrandir
05-20-2017, 11:42
"Generally, I believe similar opinions that come from different quarters more that one opinion of an emotionally invested individual." That is why I gave you 2 possibilities: Marianne is not known to be nice towards Mélenchon. Founder is more Bayrou (Center Right, so Rightist)...
This matter winds itself ever in new riddles, as Faramir used to say. Who's Marianne, who's Founder and is Bayrou an adjective to have degrees of comparison?
Gilrandir
05-20-2017, 11:47
Melenchon has a very awkward leniency towards Maduro and the Castros. But no tenderness for Putin or North Korea, never. I'm not Brenus, maybe you can trust me.
It is not about trusting or distrusting Brenus. It is about trusting or distrusting a person who supports/ed a politician and is now trying to prove those, who criticize him, wrong.
He just said Russia is an important actor and as such shall not be treated lightly. Isn't it what you want to make us understand too?
"Being not treated lightly" means "taking it seriously". It is quite different from "establishing a warm realtionship", isn't it?
"Being not treated lightly" means "taking it seriously". It is quite different from "establishing a warm realtionship", isn't it?
Well done, you spotted it!
"It is about trusting or distrusting a person who supports/ed a politician and is now trying to prove those, who criticize him, wrong." They don't criticise him, they bluntly lied. Telling that someone (well, his "adviser") said something and it is not what he said, is a lie.
Disagree with someone is normal. Using lie is not.
Tristuskhan
05-21-2017, 01:18
This matter winds itself ever in new riddles, as Faramir used to say. Who's Marianne
This: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_(magazine) , the english article is very basic but marianne is the only independant mainstream news source. Center-right, indeed, but reliable and republican enough to have me, authoritarian left winger, reading it for fifteen years.
,
who's Founder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Fran%C3%A7ois_Kahn
The one who made mistakes and aknowledges it. The only one among french media.
and is Bayrou an adjective to have degrees of comparison?
You nail it... Almost an adjective. "Central". "Somehow useful". "honest to foolishness". "crappy 'friends' ". "almost convincing". "A whole lotta scars between the shoulder plates". Bayrou... oh my, this last one looks very likely very soon, again.
Gilrandir
06-13-2017, 10:07
Macron continues his triumphant march:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/11/emmanuel-macrons-party-leads-exit-poll-for-parliamentary-elections
Yeap. 52% abstention... What a triumph.
Btw, first Foreign Politician received by him: Vladimir Putin, and at Versailles... But he told him off. Happy?
Gilrandir
06-14-2017, 10:42
Yeap. 52% abstention... What a triumph.
If one looks at the number of parliamentary seats his party obtained it is a triumph for a totally new party which came into being half a year (?) ago.
Btw, first Foreign Politician received by him: Vladimir Putin, and at Versailles... But he told him off. Happy?
I heard that the last political leader received at Versailles was Gaddafi.
I heard that the last political leader received at Versailles was Gaddafi. Gaddafi was received at the Elysee Palace.
I think it is the 1st time a foreign Head of State was received at Versailles.
"If one looks at the number of parliamentary seats his party obtained it is a triumph for a totally new party which came into being half a year (?) ago." You are right. No opposition, so only solution will be in the streets.
a completely inoffensive name
06-15-2017, 01:57
Refusing to vote is not an act of dissatisfaction. It's a vote for the majority electorate.
Refusing to vote is not an act of dissatisfaction. It's a vote for the majority electorate.
If I refuse to go in a shop, I am not buying all what is in the shop...
No. It is a sign political landscape is not reflecting the voters reality, or that the elections process is not any more adapted to reflect it. Macron had something like 20 % of the vote during the 1st round.
He will have an absolute majority if things go as predicted. So 80% of the voters won't be represented. That is why, not only in France, abstention is the new democracies' plague...
And in France, for historical reason due to the 4th Republic, the electoral system gives advantage to the victors. Roughly, if you win all constituencies with 50% (of the valid votes, as abstention or "blank" vote is not recognised) plus 1 voice, you will have 100 % of the parliament, so 49.99% of the voters are not represented. Then you can claim you have a full mandate to do whatever you want. Then the only option left for the 49.99 % to be heard is demonstrations in streets.
What Macron is now preparing under the smoke screen of anti-terrorism is to integrate the "emergency measures" in the common laws, banning demonstration against his policies de facto...
His problem is French don't care too much about laws they disagree with. So it will end by dead demonstrators as police will have to use more and more violent systems of controlling the demonstrations, because they is just not enough of anti-riot police officers thanks to the cuts imposed by the EU...
Of course, demonstrators will rise to the challenge, then we will have dead in the police forces, media (controlled by Macron's sponsors) will show how savage the workers defending their life against the savagery of Macron Policies are...
Facebook and youtube will react to governmental propaganda...
And then... All hells will open...
Gilrandir
06-15-2017, 11:41
Gaddafi was received at the Elysee Palace.
I think it is the 1st time a foreign Head of State was received at Versailles.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/05/muammar-putin-versailles-170530130221268.html
Perhaps trying to add an air of importance to Putin's visit, Russian TV channel RT shared the following curious detail: "Receptions in Versailles are very rare. For example, Nicolas Sarkozy received a guest at the royal palace only once. That was the famous visit of Muammar Gaddafi in 2007."
What about your claim-to-fame reality check?
He will have an absolute majority if things go as predicted. So 80% of the voters won't be represented. That is why, not only in France, abstention is the new democracies' plague...
If they abstained they don't want/don't care to be represented.
His problem is French don't care too much about laws they disagree with. So it will end by dead demonstrators as police will have to use more and more violent systems of controlling the demonstrations, because they is just not enough of anti-riot police officers thanks to the cuts imposed by the EU...
So they don't want to change things legally by voting (aka abstention) and will start rioting? Is it what you denounced so vehemently about Ukrainians?
"What about your claim-to-fame reality check?" I did check.:laugh4:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8393320/Libya-Sarkozy-and-Gadaffi-before-they-fell-out.html
You can't resist, can you?:laugh4:
"If they abstained they don't want/don't care to be represented." In your simple world only.
"Is it what you denounced so vehemently about Ukrainians?" No. What I denounced about Ukrainians is the Coup (which was probably illegal) and the fact that demonstrations (legal) were hijacked by Nazi (who are probably legal in Ukraine)...
"So they don't want to change things legally by voting (aka abstention) and will start rioting?" Demonstrations are legal in France, as a legal mean to express opinions. Perhaps for a linguist you should check the definition of "legal"
I think it is the 1st time a foreign Head of State was received at Versailles.
Don't forget 1871... :creep:
Don't forget 1871... :creep:
:laugh4:Don't think they were invited...
Historically, I wonder if Germany was the only country proclaiming its birth in someone else Palace?
Sure they left a mess which took two world wars to clean...
a completely inoffensive name
06-16-2017, 07:17
If I refuse to go in a shop, I am not buying all what is in the shop...
No. It is a sign political landscape is not reflecting the voters reality, or that the elections process is not any more adapted to reflect it. Macron had something like 20 % of the vote during the 1st round.
He will have an absolute majority if things go as predicted. So 80% of the voters won't be represented. That is why, not only in France, abstention is the new democracies' plague...
And in France, for historical reason due to the 4th Republic, the electoral system gives advantage to the victors. Roughly, if you win all constituencies with 50% (of the valid votes, as abstention or "blank" vote is not recognised) plus 1 voice, you will have 100 % of the parliament, so 49.99% of the voters are not represented. Then you can claim you have a full mandate to do whatever you want. Then the only option left for the 49.99 % to be heard is demonstrations in streets.
What Macron is now preparing under the smoke screen of anti-terrorism is to integrate the "emergency measures" in the common laws, banning demonstration against his policies de facto...
His problem is French don't care too much about laws they disagree with. So it will end by dead demonstrators as police will have to use more and more violent systems of controlling the demonstrations, because they is just not enough of anti-riot police officers thanks to the cuts imposed by the EU...
Of course, demonstrators will rise to the challenge, then we will have dead in the police forces, media (controlled by Macron's sponsors) will show how savage the workers defending their life against the savagery of Macron Policies are...
Facebook and youtube will react to governmental propaganda...
And then... All hells will open...
Even if 90% of the people choose 'none of the above', someone has to win. An election is nothing like shopping at a store.
The most important time for the people to get involved with choosing their leadership is not in the first wave, or the second wave. It's when the parties pick their candidates. I don't know how primaries are done in France, but if the party leadership is giving you duds it's time to reform the process on how party leadership is chosen
Chosing leadership lol, you don't understand the French
:laugh4:Don't think they were invited...
But they were received in a way...
Historically, I wonder if Germany was the only country proclaiming its birth in someone else Palace?
That's actually an interesting question. I can't think of any.
Sure they left a mess which took two world wars to clean...
Surely that is a joke, since the whole mess was created by imperialist and/or monarchic aspirations in the first place and I find it hard to believe you would defend such sentiments.
Gilrandir
06-16-2017, 16:28
"What about your claim-to-fame reality check?" I did check.:laugh4:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8393320/Libya-Sarkozy-and-Gadaffi-before-they-fell-out.html
You can't resist, can you?:laugh4:
Evidently, we speak of different visits by Gaddafi. You refer to the one in 2011, I mean the one in 2007.
demonstrations (legal) were hijacked by Nazi (who are probably legal in Ukraine)...
Are FN nazis? Are they legal in France? The same with Svoboda.
The latter were so nazi that they let the hijacked power out of their hands in presidential and parliamentary elections and allowed a Jew to be appointed prime minister.
"So they don't want to change things legally by voting (aka abstention) and will start rioting?" Demonstrations are legal in France, as a legal mean to express opinions. Perhaps for a linguist you should check the definition of "legal"
You spoke of anti-riot police policemen, so I assumed you were hinting at possible riots which are illegal. Or are they legal?
"Evidently, we speak of different visits by Gaddafi. You refer to the one in 2011, I mean the one in 2007." Here we go, mystery elucidated...
"Are FN nazis? Are they legal in France? The same with Svoboda." Some are. Officially, Nazism is forbidden in France. And FN didn't (yet) organised a Coup. BTW, do you know that the Front National was the name of a Communist Freedom Fighter Group in France? Unlike in Ukraine, the FN doesn't show it is a Nazi party, or fascist...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(French_Resistance)
"You spoke of anti-riot police" If I would have said Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité, I am not sure that someone would have understood to what I was referring to... Riots are just a possible extension of demonstrations. Not legal, but still a possibility, reason why Anti-Riot police is deployed... Same for emergency services in hospital, and firefighters, doesn't make accidents and fires legal...
"But they were received in a way..." Yeah, in a way...
" I find it hard to believe you would defend such sentiments." Where did I did that? If I did, it was not intentional...
Where did I did that? If I did, it was not intentional...
"would", because you didn't, but it was a potential conclusion one could have drawn. ~;)
Gilrandir
06-17-2017, 13:50
Officially, Nazism is forbidden in France.
The same in Ukraine. Or do you believe it is otherwise?
And FN didn't (yet) organised a Coup.
Neither did Svoboda (or any party). "The coup" was the result of the acting president escaping from the country. And after "the coup" both the presidential and parliamentary elections were held which were recognized by everyone outside Ukraine, including Russia. If you mean the Maidan movement that caused the escape, then it wasn't organized by any party, Svoboda including.
Unlike in Ukraine, the FN doesn't show it is a Nazi party, or fascist...
Like Right Sector, which had a jewish platoon and a synagogue built near the fronlines?
Like Right Sector, which had a jewish platoon and a synagogue built near the fronlines? And the insignia of the 2 SS Division.
BTW, dividing your units by religions is Nazi's orientated ideology
For what left of your remark, we argued before so, let's not re-start this. Just go back wherever it was...
Gilrandir
06-18-2017, 05:49
BTW, dividing your units by religions is Nazi's orientated ideology
You mean nazis had Catholic, Orthodox, Buddhist, Moslem etc regiments? :dizzy2:
Montmorency
06-18-2017, 09:57
By race or nationality, yes. Mostly volunteer SS, though.
You mean nazis had Catholic, Orthodox, Buddhist, Moslem etc regiments? :dizzy2:
Buddhist, I doubt, but others, yes...
Gilrandir
06-19-2017, 10:18
By race or nationality, yes. Mostly volunteer SS, though.
It is different from what you claimed (e.i. by religion), but in case of race or nationality: this tradition goes back to Roman army (perhaps even before - too lazy to check, Macedoneans in particular):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Roman_army
Under Augustus (ruled 30 BC – 14 AD), the army consisted of legions, eventually auxilia and also numeri.
Numeri were allied native (or "barbarian") units from outside the Empire who fought alongside the regular forces on a mercenary basis. These were led by their own aristocrats and equipped in traditional fashion.
One may also remember the tradition of having Scottish units in the service of French kings (see Quentin Durward by Walter Scott) or Swiss guards at papal court. Even French foreign legion may be considered such a unit. Were/are all those nazi practices?
Buddhist, I doubt, but others, yes...
The source, please.
Greyblades
06-19-2017, 11:30
Hm, macron got a majority.
All the power, the responsibility, the blame, is his.
Gilrandir
06-19-2017, 13:00
Hm, macron got a majority.
All the power, the responsibility, the blame, is his.
I heard that he brought to the parliament a considerable number of people totally new to politics. Perhaps electorate are tired of seeing the same faces in the parliament, so it is a response to a demand for changing the ruling elite.
The source, please.
All Ospey -Men at Arms series about Foreign Volunteers and Waffen SS would be a good start.
https://ospreypublishing.com/store/military-history/series-books/men-at-arms
Tristuskhan
06-19-2017, 19:58
All Ospey -Men at Arms series about Foreign Volunteers and Waffen SS would be a good start.
https://ospreypublishing.com/store/military-history/series-books/men-at-arms
The Buddhist ones beeing Kalmyk former soviet POWs.
Gilrandir
06-20-2017, 11:45
All Ospey -Men at Arms series about Foreign Volunteers and Waffen SS would be a good start.
https://ospreypublishing.com/store/military-history/series-books/men-at-arms
As I said, forming ETHNIC units was a tradition long before nazis. You claimed nazis divided units by RELIGION, that is among Nazi troops there should have been 1st Catholic Panzer battalion, 3rd Protestant Luftwaffe squadron, 45th Orthodox Waffen SS division, 34th Islamic Marine regiment, etc. Were there any?
As I said, forming ETHNIC units was a tradition long before nazis. You claimed nazis divided units by RELIGION, that is among Nazi troops there should have been 1st Catholic Panzer battalion, 3rd Protestant Luftwaffe squadron, 45th Orthodox Waffen SS division, 34th Islamic Marine regiment, etc. Were there any?
Just do your research...
Gilrandir
06-21-2017, 11:31
Just do your research...
To draw a line:
1) contrary to your claims there were no Nazi units divided according to the religion;
2) having ethnic units was a practice started long before Nazis, so there is no call to associate it with a Nazi one;
3) the existence of a Jewish unit within Right Sector doesn't prove its being Nazi.
:shrug:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)
Do your research
I'll help you: https://www.amazon.com/Foreign-Legions-Third-Reich-Vol/dp/0912138297
Gilrandir
06-22-2017, 14:09
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)
Do your research
I'll help you: https://www.amazon.com/Foreign-Legions-Third-Reich-Vol/dp/0912138297
You mean like 19714?
I don't understand why I must do MY research to sustain YOUR claim. Judging from what you linked, it is still unsustained on the two points I mentioned:
1. Existence of Nazi units based on the RELIGION (not on the ethnicity) of the members.
2. Having ethnic units was a practice started by Nazis or employed exclusively by Nazis.
You failed to prove either.
You definitely didn't do your research... Not that I am really surprise. Clue : The SS Handzar is Muslim...
Ethnicity of Handzar divison, Yugoslav...
See, 2 birds in one stone...
Btw, even the book YOU show prove the Legion is not based on ethnicity...:laugh4:
Gilrandir
06-23-2017, 12:16
You definitely didn't do your research... Not that I am really surprise. Clue : The SS Handzar is Muslim...
Ethnicity of Handzar divison, Yugoslav...
See, 2 birds in one stone...
Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)
Composed of Bosnian Muslims (ethnic Bosniaks) with some Catholic Croat soldiers and mostly German and Yugoslav Volksdeutsche (ethnic German) officers and non-commissioned officers, it took an oath of allegiance to both Adolf Hitler and the Croatian leader Ante Pavelić.
Muslim, you say...
Carry on with weasling out attempts.
BTW, perhaps Sarmatian will explain to you that Yugoslav is not an ethnicity.
Btw, even the book YOU show prove the Legion is not based on ethnicity...:laugh4:
Did you read it?
I can't say I'm an expert on Nazi army organization, but the idea of units divided by religion sounds very strange for the Nazis. Religion was often an afterthought for them or something they used to further their goals. Their propaganda rarely seems to have touched on the religious side of the jews, mostly on ethnic and other "differences". They only arranged themselves with the Christian churches since it seemed necessary to keep the support of the population, AFAIK they had no further interest in it beyond that. If they ever did such a thing it was probably out of some necessity such as unit cohesion or esprit de corps. :shrug:
Gilrandir
06-23-2017, 14:48
I can't say I'm an expert on Nazi army organization, but the idea of units divided by religion sounds very strange for the Nazis. If they ever did such a thing it was probably out of some necessity such as unit cohesion or esprit de corps. :shrug:
As you may have noticed, Brenus failed to produce any evidence to support his claim.
Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)
Composed of Bosnian Muslims (ethnic Bosniaks) with some Catholic Croat soldiers and mostly German and Yugoslav Volksdeutsche (ethnic German) officers and non-commissioned officers, it took an oath of allegiance to both Adolf Hitler and the Croatian leader Ante Pavelić.
Muslim, you say...
Yeap, that is why it better to read specialised books than wiki :laugh4:
The Volkdeutche were incorporated in the Heer or the SS btw.
The uncle of an Alsatian friend was in 1 SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler because he was tall enough to do so. And to be sure that him or his friends didn't escape, the Nazi build the Natzweiler-Struthof concentration camp in France.
Handzar and Kama were form of Muslim. Do you really think Catholic Croats would have wear the Muslin Fez? Just look at the pictures, not a big deal...
I can't say I'm an expert on Nazi army organization, but the idea of units divided by religion sounds very strange for the Nazis. Religion was often an afterthought for them or something they used to further their goals. Their propaganda rarely seems to have touched on the religious side of the jews, mostly on ethnic and other "differences". They only arranged themselves with the Christian churches since it seemed necessary to keep the support of the population, AFAIK they had no further interest in it beyond that. If they ever did such a thing it was probably out of some necessity such as unit cohesion or esprit de corps. :shrug:
One is not opposed to the other...
Himmler was fascinated by Religions. Hitler was indifferent. But he received the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem on the insistence of Himmler, who himself wanted to create Mulsim Units, therefore the Hanzar and the Kama, but as well the Skandenberg for Albanian.
Remember that Serbs, Croats and Muslim speak the same language... So the choice to create a Serbian (Orthodox) unit (White Eagle) and Muslim units and to have the regular Croatian Army (plus Ustase) was not based on ethnicity, but on religions.
Detail: The last unit which try to take the Tractor factory (I think) in Stalingrad was a Croatian Unit.
Gilrandir
06-24-2017, 11:32
The Volkdeutche were incorporated in the Heer or the SS btw.
The uncle of an Alsatian friend was in 1 SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler because he was tall enough to do so. And to be sure that him or his friends didn't escape, the Nazi build the Natzweiler-Struthof concentration camp in France.
I don't see how it bears on non-existant religion-based units of Nazis.
Handzar and Kama were form of Muslim. Do you really think Catholic Croats would have wear the Muslin Fez? Just look at the pictures, not a big deal...
Who said that guys on the pictures were Croats? As the wiki (which you despise so much) claims, there were people of differet confessions in the unit in question. I have no doubt that the ones in the picture were Muslims. BUT! There were people of OTHER confessions within it. Which rules out religious foundations of the said unit. I would rather say that they were united in it because they were all citizens of Yugoslavia before the war so they could easily understand each other, cooperate with each other and be commanded by people who spoke their language.
Himmler was fascinated by Religions.
According to your logics, if Nazis had ethnic units then any other armies who have/had such units must be Nazi ones. Then all people fascinated by religions must be Nazis?
Hitler was indifferent. But he received the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem on the insistence of Himmler, who himself wanted to create Mulsim Units, therefore the Hanzar and the Kama, but as well the Skandenberg for Albanian.
Trying to create is not the same as creating. And Albanian is ethnicity, not a religion.
Remember that Serbs, Croats and Muslim speak the same language... So the choice to create a Serbian (Orthodox) unit (White Eagle) and Muslim units and to have the regular Croatian Army (plus Ustase) was not based on ethnicity, but on religions.
:dizzy2: It was based on the same language as you have correctly observed, since religions were different, and the language was common.
Detail: The last unit which try to take the Tractor factory (I think) in Stalingrad was a Croatian Unit.
Again an indication of ETHNICALLY based units which has nothing to do with religion.
Generally, I don't understand your obsession with ethnic composition of some Nazi units. This practice existed long before nazis and exists now. Why, even the so beloved by you Soviets had such units:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Riflemen#Red_Latvian_Riflemen
So the Soviets were Nazis?
Montmorency
06-24-2017, 17:31
I don't see how it bears on non-existant religion-based units of Nazis.
Who said that guys on the pictures were Croats? As the wiki (which you despise so much) claims, there were people of differet confessions in the unit in question. I have no doubt that the ones in the picture were Muslims. BUT! There were people of OTHER confessions within it. Which rules out religious foundations of the said unit. I would rather say that they were united in it because they were all citizens of Yugoslavia before the war so they could easily understand each other, cooperate with each other and be commanded by people who spoke their language.
According to your logics, if Nazis had ethnic units then any other armies who have/had such units must be Nazi ones. Then all people fascinated by religions must be Nazis?
Trying to create is not the same as creating. And Albanian is ethnicity, not a religion.
:dizzy2: It was based on the same language as you have correctly observed, since religions were different, and the language was common.
Again an indication of ETHNICALLY based units which has nothing to do with religion.
Generally, I don't understand your obsession with ethnic composition of some Nazi units. This practice existed long before nazis and exists now. Why, even the so beloved by you Soviets had such units:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Riflemen#Red_Latvian_Riflemen
So the Soviets were Nazis?
Don't also conflate the issues: Soviet units were designated according to republic(s) of origin or formation, more like the United States National Guard (http://www.nationalguard.mil/portals/31/Documents/About/Publications/Documents/Fact%20Sheet%20-%20National%20Guard%20In%20World%20War%20II.pdf) in concept than the SS conglomerations. They had some ethnic units, especially of non-Slavs (outside Central Asia) or non-Soviet Slavs, but the main structure followed a different principle.
What we should conclude is that while it's not strictly incorrect to say the SS formed units along religious lines, this is misleading in the context of the well-known SS policy of forming units around perceived national origin or identity, and how exactly this would go on to be adapted both to real circumstances in Eastern Europe and to people whom the Nazis thought of as "less European". Sometimes these unit constituents overlapped heavily with religion because sometimes ethnicity and religion overlap heavily in general.
In the context of contemporary Ukraine or whatever, you two should probably be debating the more relevant point of the motivations and reasoning involved in agglomerating non-mainstream citizens into special formations, or at least distinct ones, as opposed to distributing them throughout the larger military apparatus as with the main body of recruits.
Gilrandir
06-25-2017, 05:34
Don't also conflate the issues: Soviet units were designated according to republic(s) of origin or formation, more like the United States National Guard (http://www.nationalguard.mil/portals/31/Documents/About/Publications/Documents/Fact%20Sheet%20-%20National%20Guard%20In%20World%20War%20II.pdf) in concept than the SS conglomerations. They had some ethnic units, especially of non-Slavs (outside Central Asia) or non-Soviet Slavs, but the main structure followed a different principle.
OMG! National Guard organized along Nazi lines!
On a serious note, I would like to see the proofs that the Soviet army units were designated according to republic of formation. In my experience, it is quite the opposite. All Soviet national policy was aimed at creating "a new national identity - a Soviet man". Consequently, all ethnic differences tended to be downplayed in favor of a common tie between all people of the USSR - their Soviet citizenship.
In the armed forces this policy found expression in sending conscripts from different national republics to military units far away from their home and mixing them together thoroughly. The result of it was one of the two1 plagues with which the Soviet army was ridden - zemlyachestvo (a loose translation is "association of fellow countrymen"). The essence of the phenomenon is forming groups united by ethnicity or - largely - by regions. It was usually Slavs vs Caucasians vs Baltics vs Middle Asians. The groups were unfriendly (to put it mildly) to each other.
The example of Latvian red riflemen was a relic of the Russian empire and thus isn't symptomatic of the Soviet army. Perhaps at earlier stages (say in 1917-1922) some examples of such units could be found, but by 1930s this practice was totally abandoned and when the Red army became the Soviet army it was unthinkable.
1 The second plague being dedovshchina - humiliating treatment of juniors.
Sometimes these unit constituents overlapped heavily with religion because sometimes ethnicity and religion overlap heavily in general.
That is why one can't speak of Nazi units formed ON THE BASIS of religion. It may have been appended to ethnicity, but never the main ground.
In the context of contemporary Ukraine or whatever, you two should probably be debating the more relevant point of the motivations and reasoning involved in agglomerating non-mainstream citizens into special formations, or at least distinct ones, as opposed to distributing them throughout the larger military apparatus as with the main body of recruits.
We should, but Brenus sees Nazis everywhere in Ukraine, so he tries to bring up the point whenever he notices similar practices disregarding discrepancies or logical considerations.
"I don't see how it bears on non-existant religion-based units of Nazis.": Because it contradicted your beloved wiki. The Volksdeutsche from Yugoslavia were integrated in German Units, as my friend's uncle had. Not in a regional "ethnic" one.
The problem is you have not a clue of what you speak about. Nazism evaluated due the pressure of the high costs in lives on the eastern Front.
Nazism was based on division of religion. To be a Jew is to belonged to a religion. Now, yes, the Nazi were not coherent, and if you just discovered this, well, nothing I can do. Hitler referred himself as a Christian, and explain why the Jews as murderers of the Christ had to be exterminated. Now, if you want to check this, do it yourself, I don't want cookies in my computer linked with Nazi sites. If you don't mind, do it.
I noticed you have a very narrow kind of logic. Regarding Nazism, it doesn't work. As your Ukrainian Nazis prove it, in having a Jewish unit.
Gilrandir
06-25-2017, 12:03
"I don't see how it bears on non-existant religion-based units of Nazis.": Because it contradicted your beloved wiki. The Volksdeutsche from Yugoslavia were integrated in German Units, as my friend's uncle had. Not in a regional "ethnic" one.
Then surely a religious one? :laugh4:
The problem is you have not a clue of what you speak about.
Your usual argument when your reality checks fail you.
Nazism was based on division of religion. To be a Jew is to belonged to a religion. Now, yes, the Nazi were not coherent, and if you just discovered this, well, nothing I can do. Hitler referred himself as a Christian, and explain why the Jews as murderers of the Christ had to be exterminated.
I expect all this to be true. But it has nothing to do with "religion based units" of the Nazis which you never proved to have existed.
I don't want cookies in my computer linked with Nazi sites.
:laugh4: I expect you cleanse the history of your recent internet connections if they contain the word "nazi". I wonder how you keep these four letters on your keyboard.
I noticed you have a very narrow kind of logic.Regarding Nazism, it doesn't work.
If the event doesn't fit into your picture of the world you just brush it aside? Logic can't work piecemeal. It is universal. So if it works in other cases, it must do in the issue in question as well. Can you imagine racist owners forming an NBA team exclusively of black players? If the owners are like that they are consistent in their drafting policies (you may read on Lazio - a football team from Italy).
And, judging from what you have said regarding nazi sites, your logic is at least not broader.
As your Ukrainian Nazis prove it, in having a Jewish unit.
... and building a synagogue and being financed by the head jew of Ukraine - Kolomoisky. How cunning Ukrainian nazis are. Perhaps they are nazi jews? Russian media have invented a name for such people - Banderite kikes.
To sum up another discussion of ours:
You failed to prove your point, so you resorted to your usual tactics of playing the man not the ball. But "having no clue" and "narrow logic" can't win you an argument.
Montmorency
07-04-2017, 03:11
1. Cutting number of legislators; 2. EU comments, proportional representation, and ending the state of emergency; 3. Opposition; 4. Self-presentation and leadership style/philosophy
Org commentary?
Macron seeks to cut number of France MPs by a third
The French president says he has a broad mandate after sweeping wins in presidential and parliamentary elections this year.
If his proposed changes were not passed by parliament within a year, he said he would take the decision to a referendum.
In his 90-minute speech, the 39-year-old leader vowed to return a "collective dignity" to France.
"In the past, procedures have taken preference over results, rules over initiative, living off the public purse over fairness," he said.
The proposed cuts would reduce the number of National Assembly members from 577 to 385, and the numbers of Senate members from 348 to 232.
He also said:
The European Union had "lost its way" in the past 10 years amid growing bureaucracy - a solution was a "new generation of leaders"
France's electoral system would be changed to allow more proportional representation, so more voices would be heard at government level
France's state of emergency, put in place after terror attacks, would be removed by the autumn
Mr Macron is not the first president to convene a session at Versailles, the grand 17th Century palace outside Paris built by Louis XIV, "the Sun King".
...
Three parties, including Jean-Luc Mélénchon's far-left France Unbowed, boycotted the event. Mr Mélénchon accused Mr Macron of "crossing a line with the pharaonic aspect of his presidential monarchy".
The front page of Monday's Libération showed an image of Mr Macron as Jupiter, the god of gods, holding forked lightning. Expressing concern, the centre-left newspaper said the session in Versailles was the latest manifestation of the president's authoritarian nature.
...
The style of the Macron presidency is becoming clearer. He thinks that Charles de Gaulle, founder of the Fifth Republic, got it right: France's head of state should be distant, surrounded by symbolism and mystique, above the fray.
That is why he decided to call this exceptional joint session of the Senate and the National Assembly - to set out to lawmakers from his position of supreme authority what he expects of them in the years to come.
Of course it's convenient that the session took place in Versailles, a place of monarchical associations like no other.
Emmanuel Macron feels the presidency was debased by his predecessors, who either interfered too much in the detail of policy, or pandered to the media.
He wants to stop that, but critics are already saying he is getting above himself - and assuming powers he should not have.
Gilrandir
07-04-2017, 12:20
1. Cutting number of legislators
Org commentary?
I would suport this one... for Ukraine. Here the same opinions are voiced giving the shrinking number of population as a reason. When the number of legislators was adopted the population of Ukraine was about 52 mln. Now it is 10 mln less, and some regions of Ukraine are annexed. Thus the number of legislators is to be reduced proportionately. I don't know what was Macron's argument, but if France's population number shows a similar tendency (compared to what it was when the number of legislators was adopted) then his idea sounds reasonable.
I would suport this one... for Ukraine. Here the same opinions are voiced giving the shrinking number of population as a reason. When the number of legislators was adopted the population of Ukraine was about 52 mln. Now it is 10 mln less, and some regions of Ukraine are annexed. Thus the number of legislators is to be reduced proportionately. I don't know what was Macron's argument, but if France's population number shows a similar tendency (compared to what it was when the number of legislators was adopted) then his idea sounds reasonable.
It is a motion adopted in a lot of democracies, including the UK (and we have a growing population). It is a concept around saving money by having less representatives. Also arguably, less people to "influence" whilst in government.
It can be done only if you have a total proportional representation. If not, I can't see the mechanism on how it can be achieved...
Macron is one of the worst elected French President, due to abstention...
So, he knows he had little time to push his XIX century's "reform" and try the Louis the XIV was.
To choose the Louvre the Versailles is quite symbolic. The residence of the French Kings...
However, the "Versaillais" in the French Psyche are the people who crushed the "Commune de Paris" in 1871...
As he knows he has the legality but not the legitimacy he will go "en force" to pass his ideological program, which is in fact the following of Holland, to whom Macron was the Minister of Finances...
I don't know how less Representatives can be more democracy...
Seriously, the Louvre?? Banks are king I guess
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
07-06-2017, 16:54
It is a motion adopted in a lot of democracies, including the UK (and we have a growing population). It is a concept around saving money by having less representatives. Also arguably, less people to "influence" whilst in government.
Excepting special cases like Ukraine reducing the number of MPs is a measure designed to reduce the accountability of the MPs (by giving them a larger electorate each) and "saving" money which in practice means the same pot of money spread between fewer politicians. In the UK it was also actually motivated by the fact that the Chamber was deliberately designed to only seat about 600 when the House of Commons was already larger than that. This was intended to prevent debate dragging on, but now people will be able to nap in the chamber.
Gilrandir
07-07-2017, 09:17
Macron is one of the worst elected French President, due to abstention...
:no: Not again. Again ruminations on the best/worst politician. :no: Evaluation is always subjective. Anyway, one can't gauge the quality of a president (who hasn't started to rule, in fact) by the number of votes he received/didn't receive. If we go this way, the best presidents will be the ones of Turkmenistan and North Korea.
a completely inoffensive name
07-07-2017, 09:45
It can be done only if you have a total proportional representation. If not, I can't see the mechanism on how it can be achieved...
Macron is one of the worst elected French President, due to abstention...
So, he knows he had little time to push his XIX century's "reform" and try the Louis the XIV was.
To choose the Louvre the Versailles is quite symbolic. The residence of the French Kings...
However, the "Versaillais" in the French Psyche are the people who crushed the "Commune de Paris" in 1871...
As he knows he has the legality but not the legitimacy he will go "en force" to pass his ideological program, which is in fact the following of Holland, to whom Macron was the Minister of Finances...
I don't know how less Representatives can be more democracy...
Brenus, the long game here is that France has to go in some sort of direction to stave off the right wing rhetoric. No more beating around the bush. People need action right now, so even if Macron takes a strong man approach, I would rather have his moderate, pro-EU strongman rather than the pro-Russian, radical Le Pen direction.
Brenus, the long game here is that France has to go in some sort of direction to stave off the right wing rhetoric. No more beating around the bush. People need action right now, so even if Macron takes a strong man approach, I would rather have his moderate, pro-EU strongman rather than the pro-Russian, radical Le Pen direction.
He is NOT a moderate... He is one of the reasons why Le Pen raised.
Gilrandir
07-08-2017, 04:38
He is NOT a moderate... He is one of the reasons why Le Pen raised.
Not vice versa?
Not vice versa?
Hmmm, difficult to answer...
Macron was elected because he was confronted against Le Pen. Polls (but we know they are not precise sciences) are showing that 61 % of the voters for Macron voted in fact against Le Pen. A goat would have elected against Le Pen. That is why Le Pen is useful for the ruling parties... So they thought. But plans went wrong for them.
However, it is Macron's policies (he was the minister of finances during Holland's government) that created the conditions of the abstention (more than 53 % for the 2nd round for the Parliament) and the protest vote going to Le Pen as vote for the one who annoyed the "Elites".
Gilrandir
07-10-2017, 07:26
Hmmm, difficult to answer...
Macron was elected because he was confronted against Le Pen. Polls (but we know they are not precise sciences) are showing that 61 % of the voters for Macron voted in fact against Le Pen. A goat would have elected against Le Pen. That is why Le Pen is useful for the ruling parties... So they thought. But plans went wrong for them.
However, it is Macron's policies (he was the minister of finances during Holland's government) that created the conditions of the abstention (more than 53 % for the 2nd round for the Parliament) and the protest vote going to Le Pen as vote for the one who annoyed the "Elites".
In post # 385 you spoke of the reasons why Le Pen "raised", not of the reasons of Macron being elected.
In my view, the chief reason of the Le Pen's "raise" was not the rivals she faced, but the whole situation in the EU and the inlux of refugees in particular.
As for Macron voters voting against Le Pen - wasn't it the same story at the previous elections?
In post # 385 you spoke of the reasons why Le Pen "raised", not of the reasons of Macron being elected.
In my view, the chief reason of the Le Pen's "raise" was not the rivals she faced, but the whole situation in the EU and the inlux of refugees in particular.
As for Macron voters voting against Le Pen - wasn't it the same story at the previous elections?
Refugees: Yes and no. Le Pen certainly played on this, but it wasn't really at the centre of the debates. A bit like when T. May in UK tried to bank on Brexit and Corbyn succeeded to play on social grounds. She didn't succeeded to convince voters, the last debate vs Macron was a disaster for her. The problem she has (still) is the origin of her party, created by former French SS and Germany's Vichy collaborators. She is un-electable at the moment.
The French elections saw the destruction of the two main movements that were the "governmental" ones, the Socialist Party (was socialist only by name due a slow evolution to kind of social-democracy) and the Les Républicains, dreamed by Sarkozy and was an alliances of "conservatives" movements. They were basically offering the same programs and were not really different one from the other...
Macron succeeded thanks to a good communication to present himself as "new" but if you look at the figures he represents actually around 20 % of the voter so, does the FN and 2 other movements.
The reason why Le Pen raised was the perception (partially accurate) that the political landscape was blocked, so the FN became the party carrying the anger of the ones wishing to blow-up the system in one hand, and to give a warning (knowing that Le Pen will be never elected) to this establishment...
And yes, the vote against Le Pen was the reason of the vote for Macron. Always has been, reason why Le Pen family is so precious to the the men in power, as it blocked any debate. "Us or the fascists" is something familiar in the French political landscape, except it is wearing thin... As shown in the elections, the trap doesn't work any more for few reasons too long to explain, but roughly coming from a change in the speeches from Le Pen, and a really development of poverty and unemployment in France...
Kralizec
07-10-2017, 20:50
The speech itself was apparently in the palace of Versailles because the law says that if the President adresses both chambers of the French parliament, it has to be there. You can question wether it was necessary at all, but you can't really fault him for picking the location :shrug:
The speech itself was apparently in the palace of Versailles because the law says that if the President adresses both chambers of the French parliament, it has to be there. You can question wether it was necessary at all, but you can't really fault him for picking the location :shrug:
He could have avoided to do it. It was not the purpose of this kind of meeting.
One of his nicknames is Toutankmacron now...
lol that one is pretty good
Gilrandir
12-10-2019, 14:51
Faint echoes of the presidential campaign:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50712826
Isn't he the guy Brenus rooted for?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
12-12-2019, 01:12
Well, quite a thing.
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