Russia bans Jehovah's Witnesses

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39661339

The Holy Joes have been banned as a religion.

Putin isn't even pretending not to be a Fascist.

[Strike For The South]

It's April 20 and Vladimir Putin is still a fascist.

[Brenus]

So, a lot of Countries are fascists...

[Sarmatian]

Around 70 of them, including South Korea, Singapore. Bulgaria, Georgia, France, China, Japan...

So many fascists in the world.

Or have we reached the stage when anything Putin does is automatically fascist?

-Breaking news! Don't shake hands anymore as Putin was seen shaking hands today, therefore it must be fascist.-

[Fragony]

Banning goes a bit far but they tend to be annoying, especially these fully suited American ones. I am good in sending them off (politeness is key, never ever ever go into a discussion, it's what they want, just say you know they mean well, presto)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Around 70 of them, including South Korea, Singapore. Bulgaria, Georgia, France, China, Japan...

So many fascists in the world.

Indeed.

So many... I had no idea intolerance was so widespread.

Though maybe some of them are something other than Fascist.

[Gilrandir]

-Breaking news! Don't shake hands anymore as Putin was seen shaking hands today, therefore it must be fascist.-

I would put it differently: don't shake hands with Putin or you will become a fascist. It is contagious.

[Tristuskhan]

Banning goes a bit far but they tend to be annoying, especially these fully suited American ones. I am good in sending them off (politeness is key, never ever ever go into a discussion, it's what they want, just say you know they mean well, presto)

Well, a ten minutes chat on saturday morning with a hangover is always fun for an unbeliever like me. Especially when it's about creationnism and such. Beeing a forest manager they think I should see the beauty of God's creation better than others. And I see the beauty and perfection better than they can even imagine from their dull bigot point of view. I don't even try to convince it's just a question of time, much much time, and typos, many typos. Just don't let them in.

On topic, some good things can happen for bad reasons. If it was my country that did that I'd eagerly wait for the next movement And dream of full banishment of religious ideologies. A dream, for sure.

[Pannonian]

Well, a ten minutes chat on saturday morning with a hangover is always fun for an unbeliever like me. Especially when it's about creationnism and such. Beeing a forest manager they think I should see the beauty of God's creation better than others.

Of course you should, with the heritage of Brian Clough to look back on.

[Shaka_Khan]

Around 70 of them, including South Korea, Singapore. Bulgaria, Georgia, France, China, Japan...
I checked on South Korea. Not all Jehovah's Witnesses in South Korea are persecuted. Only the men who refuse to serve the military get arrested over there.

[Beskar]

If I remember correctly, they are mandated by their religion to go door-to-door, and if they don't fulfill it, they go to hell. That explains why they are so keen to preach and try to convince you.

[Husar]

If I remember correctly, they are mandated by their religion to go door-to-door, and if they don't fulfill it, they go to hell. That explains why they are so keen to preach and try to convince you.

Eh, isn't "their religion" just a different interpretation of the bible than most other christian denominations? IIRC the door to door thing comes from the basic missionary things that are in the bible, the jehovah name comes from that being the jewish word for the same God christians pray to and so on. They're "just" a different kind of very conservative literalist christian denomination with some cult-like behavior tacked on.
A bit like a what if Scientology had been founded by a christian.

On that note, you can also look up the list of countries that do not recognize or even ban the Church of Scientology. Or rather, look at the countries where they are tax exempt. Also remember the signature: Scientology is a cu*t.

[Elmetiacos]

Objectively speaking though, if you look at what Benito Mussolini did, Vladimir Putin comes closer to it than any other leader has done for a long time. The main difference is that he still pays lip service to the idea of his authority coming from the will of the Russian people; a proper fascist would derive his authority simply from having that authority - might makes right or auctoritas.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Banning goes a bit far but they tend to be annoying, especially these fully suited American ones. I am good in sending them off (politeness is key, never ever ever go into a discussion, it's what they want, just say you know they mean well, presto)

I greet them at the door, thank them for their time, note that I am a devout Catholic, ask God to bless them, and gently shoo them away. Not a difficult issue and there are never any good reasons to be rude.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Objectively speaking though, if you look at what Benito Mussolini did, Vladimir Putin comes closer to it than any other leader has done for a long time. The main difference is that he still pays lip service to the idea of his authority coming from the will of the Russian people; a proper fascist would derive his authority simply from having that authority - might makes right or auctoritas.

Actually, I would suggest that only Franco rested everything on a "might makes right" platform. Both Mussolini and Hitler used the political systems as were to rise to power and then were VERY assiduous in using their claims regarding the "will of the people" to retain their status as champion of the people. The sold the idea that they embodied the will of the people and therefore were empowered to act as THE leader. Call it propaganda, call it "smoke and mirrors," put it down to stacking the crowd to be televised or what-not. They managed to sell the concept well enough that people tacitly accepted it.

ou cannot rule absent the consent of the ruled, and pure coercion is impossible in the long term due to resources required to maintain it. You CAN manufacture that consent and -- the term used by critical theorists is concertive control -- use messages, institutions, and some coercion to enact a situation where the governed police themselves. THAT is what the fascist dictator strives for. Or, to use your Romanesque reference, they used auctoritas to beget gravitas and presumed dignitas (both elements of making the leader the symbol of the people being lead) which in turn granted ever greater auctoritas.

[Crandar]

Never met a Jehovah Witness in my life.

Here only the Orthodox Church is begging for money, especially during the holiday of the Epiphany, when they send hundreds of Orthodox South-Koreans to ring the bells of houses.
Maybe it's related to the fact that only the Orthodox Church is allowed to proselytise and we ten to take blasphemy laws somewhat seriously.

Or maybe it's just a coincidence, because I have see Mormons selling their book, but they spoke only French, not even English, so there's a considerable chance that nobody understood they were violating our constitution.

Are the Jehovah Witnesses really that onboxious or is it just an exaggerated urban legend?

[Pannonian]

Actually, I would suggest that only Franco rested everything on a "might makes right" platform. Both Mussolini and Hitler used the political systems as were to rise to power and then were VERY assiduous in using their claims regarding the "will of the people" to retain their status as champion of the people. The sold the idea that they embodied the will of the people and therefore were empowered to act as THE leader. Call it propaganda, call it "smoke and mirrors," put it down to stacking the crowd to be televised or what-not. They managed to sell the concept well enough that people tacitly accepted it.

ou cannot rule absent the consent of the ruled, and pure coercion is impossible in the long term due to resources required to maintain it. You CAN manufacture that consent and -- the term used by critical theorists is concertive control -- use messages, institutions, and some coercion to enact a situation where the governed police themselves. THAT is what the fascist dictator strives for. Or, to use your Romanesque reference, they used auctoritas to beget gravitas and presumed dignitas (both elements of making the leader the symbol of the people being lead) which in turn granted ever greater auctoritas.

Of course, dictators are constitutional, and both Mussolini and Hitler rose to power by constitutional means. You can be a popular leader without constitutional requirements though, holding power through implicit popular approval. That would be an old school Greek tyrant.

[Tristuskhan]

Are the Jehovah Witnesses really that onboxious or is it just an exaggerated urban legend?

Urban I can't say. Rural, quite a bit here in France. I remember three years ago, local elections, I saw people in suits stalking villages all around when I was coming back from work the forest.
Misery! I thought. The Sarkozists are on the move, better hide. When they came knocking at my door later I discovered those were just Jehovah Witnesses, what a relief!
If I remember well I was so happy I maybe was a bit uncivil. For once.

"Mine" are a couple in their mid-thirties, with strange eyes and with two young kids. A two years-old boy and a five years old girl. I always feel uneasy for them, give them a smile and think about the french proverb: "les plus belles roses poussent sur les tas de fumier".

The most beautiful roses grow on dung heaps.

Good luck, children!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Never met a Jehovah Witness in my life.

Here only the Orthodox Church is begging for money, especially during the holiday of the Epiphany, when they send hundreds of Orthodox South-Koreans to ring the bells of houses.
Maybe it's related to the fact that only the Orthodox Church is allowed to proselytise and we ten to take blasphemy laws somewhat seriously.

Or maybe it's just a coincidence, because I have see Mormons selling their book, but they spoke only French, not even English, so there's a considerable chance that nobody understood they were violating our constitution.

Are the Jehovah Witnesses really that onboxious or is it just an exaggerated urban legend?

Generally speaking, they are lovely people - as are Mormons.

However, other people find their insistent attempts to save your soul annoying, and so they say nasty things about them.

Generally speaking they will leave you alone if you firmly declare a religion.

[Brenus]

Around 70 of them, including South Korea, Singapore. Bulgaria, Georgia, France, China, Japan...

So many fascists in the world.

Or have we reached the stage when anything Putin does is automatically fascist?

-Breaking news! Don't shake hands anymore as Putin was seen shaking hands today, therefore it must be fascist.-

Witnesses are not banned in France, were not when I was living there. They were a great source of fun with their books and speeches. Might have change if they broke the law...

[Brenus]

Generally speaking they will leave you alone if you firmly declare a religion.
I just tell them I am atheist, and it works wonders...

[Pannonian]

Generally speaking, they are lovely people - as are Mormons.

However, other people find their insistent attempts to save your soul annoying, and so they say nasty things about them.

Generally speaking they will leave you alone if you firmly declare a religion.

They're among the most decent evangelists I've met or seen. I'm against evangelism as a rule, but I find them pleasantly moderate. That said, the brand of witnessism I've seen in person is akin to the famed Church of England tea and scones extremism.

[Sarmatian]

How aren't they shot in Texas?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

How aren't they shot in Texas?

They're polite. Persistent, but polite. If ordered off a property, they wish you a good day and depart.

[Strike For The South]

How aren't they shot in Texas?

They tend to be "European-American"

[Fragony]

I greet them at the door, thank them for their time, note that I am a devout Catholic, ask God to bless them, and gently shoo them away. Not a difficult issue and there are never any good reasons to be rude.

I also remain nice. I am not religious and I politily tell them, I feel no need to be mean to them as I know they mean it well. Conversation ends really fast.

[Gilrandir]

Evidently, all those nice polite and a little bit annoying JWs are found everywhere OUTSIDE Russia. Once they cross into Russia they change completely. The reasons they were banned in Russia were extremism and fomenting bigotry, or something like that.

[Tristuskhan]

The reasons they were banned in Russia were extremism and fomenting bigotry, or something like that.

Things only the official Orthodox Church can do. Since they are the ones who preach the real truth.

[Husar]

Evidently, all those nice polite and a little bit annoying JWs are found everywhere OUTSIDE Russia. Once they cross into Russia they change completely. The reasons they were banned in Russia were extremism and fomenting bigotry, or something like that.

I think that may be a bit simplistic. A lot of cultists are nice when they want to recruit you, even ISIS recruiters are probably very nice people if you're the kind of person they want. That doesn't mean the entire organization is always nice to everyone.

[Take the US army for example, it's a cult that promises poor young men a lot of things, then delivers on some and less so on others. They may give them an education but if they lose an extremity or two in a war, they will have to stand in line and fill out tons of paperwork only for the VA to try everything it can to deny them treatment or be too incompetentent to handle their request (in a timely manner). And if these men decide in the middle of a firefight that this cult isn't for them, the cult leaders will threaten them with guns to make them stay. All of this is most likely not part of the standard recruitment talks however. Upon recruitment, they will appear very nice and friendly and talk about all the things they have to offer these men.]

*The part in [] may contain content that is not meant entirely seriously.

[Gilrandir]

I think that may be a bit simplistic. A lot of cultists are nice when they want to recruit you, even ISIS recruiters are probably very nice people if you're the kind of person they want. That doesn't mean the entire organization is always nice to everyone.



In other words, you believe the charges against JW?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

They tend to be "European-American"

All the ones in Florida have been salt and pepper teams -- all female.

[Strike For The South]

All the ones in Florida have been salt and pepper teams -- all female.

Not a bad idea for recruiting purposes. JW and evangelicals in general are making massive inroads in the hispanic communities. It's fascinating.

[Husar]

In other words, you believe the charges against JW?

I believe in typical Russian fashion it is a probably politically motivated reaction that is probably also too violent in terms of police action being taken, but I also believe they may not be entirely innocent of all the charges.

A good lie tends to be built on a truth after all.

[Sarmatian]

My opinion isn't gonna be much relevant here, as I wouldn't consider banning all religions worldwide a bad thing, but JH are particularly bad.

Not so much because they are annoying but because their interpretation of faith can lead to deaths of innocent people. If you're an adult who refuses blood transfusion and then dies, that's all right. You're an idiot, you won't be missed. But if you withhold proper medical care from a child who needs a blood transfusion or a dialysis, or put pressure on another adult to refuse, you deserve bad things to happen to you.

[Gilrandir]

A good lie tends to be built on a truth after all.

Not relevant for Russian propaganda. They go by Goebbels' principle "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

[Gilrandir]

Not so much because they are annoying but because their interpretation of faith can lead to deaths of innocent people.

Then there is no reason to dislike JW especially. It may also be true of other religions (e.g. Islam). In modern world interpretation is much more important that the original.

[Fragony]

My opinion isn't gonna be much relevant here, as I wouldn't consider banning all religions worldwide a bad thing, but JH are particularly bad.

Not so much because they are annoying but because their interpretation of faith can lead to deaths of innocent people. If you're an adult who refuses blood transfusion and then dies, that's all right. You're an idiot, you won't be missed. But if you withhold proper medical care from a child who needs a blood transfusion or a dialysis, or put pressure on another adult to refuse, you deserve bad things to happen to you.

That's totally fair I guess. There is a much bigger problem called the Vatican than though if you really care about that, picking out JW is off if you (imho rightfully) dislike religions. No offence intended to religious orgahs

[Sarmatian]

Then there is no reason to dislike JW especially. It may also be true of other religions (e.g. Islam). In modern world interpretation is much more important that the original.

True, but with Islam and most other faiths, 99,99% of people following it don't take it literally. For the small part that does and gets innocents hurt, I have the same disdain. JH take it literally, that's the whole point. You can't be a JH if you don't take it literally.

I remember a story my mother told me (MD), when they had a JH woman who was going to do unless she gets dialysis. At first she refused, but as her condition got worse, she started wavering. The organization found out and they posted someone every day to sit next to her bed to make sure she doesn't get it. In the end, nurses managed to get her to agree and they did it at night.

She was an adult, so it might make sense to say, it's her decision, screw it. But what when some idiot parents do that to a child, and it's too late by the time legal actions can reverse their decision?

So, **** Jehova's Witnesses and all other religious nutjobs that hurt other people to preserve their own beliefs.

[Gilrandir]

JH take it literally, that's the whole point. You can't be a JH if you don't take it literally.


I'm sure by JH you meant JHI, i.e. Janissary Heavy Infantry?



So, **** Jehova's Witnesses and all other religious nutjobs that hurt other people to preserve their own beliefs.

Again, being nutjobs or letting innocent people die were not the charges levelled at them in Russia. All their shortcomings notwithstanding, I greatly doubt JW can be qualified as an extremist organization. The reason why it happened is (I believe) Russian orthodoxy got exasperated at them stealing their flock (and consequently, money).

[Sarmatian]

The reason why it happened is (I believe) Russian orthodoxy got exasperated at them stealing their flock (and consequently, money).

It probably had something to do with it, but I doubt that's the only reason. You won't find me defending Russian Church, though. I'm not overly fond of any religious organization and Russian Orthodox Church tends to be even more gung ho than the rest.

[Pannonian]

It probably had something to do with it, but I doubt that's the only reason. You won't find me defending Russian Church, though. I'm not overly fond of any religious organization and Russian Orthodox Church tends to be even more gung ho than the rest.

Join the Church of England! Probably the softest, most ineffectual denomination around. Believing in traditional English customs is an ideal. Believing in God is optional.

[Sarmatian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTRjWDW3JSg

[Gilrandir]

J Believing in traditional English customs is an ideal. Believing in God is optional.

Knowing the founder's (Henry VIII) ways, it is no wonder.

[Fragony]

Well he died horribly or was that another one, can't keep track