View Full Version : Kurdistan
Iraqi Kurdistan has not been oppressed since 1991. In fact, it's the Iraqi Kurds who now oppress their minorities, religious and ethnic.
On topic, I find the desire for independence stupid. There is no issue for oppression, as the largely invented Catalan identity hasn't been suffocated since the death of the Caudillo.
Yes, like the Croats and the Slovenes, they believe that they are being taxed disproportionately, in the sense that "they pay for roads and healthcare in Andalusia". Not a very altruistic sentiment, not to mention that prosperity is not guaranteed in a geopolitically isolated Catalonia.
Still, if that's what the majority wants (I doubt it, according to most polls, only a minority is pro-independence and its numbers fall dramatically, in the hypothetical scenario of a tax decrease), then they should enjoy their rights, after negotiating with the Spanish government without violating the Spanish constitutions.
Instead, they acted like jerks, Madrid responded in kind and we have alt-right crusaders that they actually predict that Islamists will exploit the chaos to establish the Ummayad Caliphate.
Kagemusha
10-05-2017, 07:52
Iraqi Kurdistan has not been oppressed since 1991. In fact, it's the Iraqi Kurds who now oppress their minorities, religious and ethnic.
Sure seems like that: http://www.dw.com/en/in-iraq-minorities-pin-hopes-on-a-kurdish-state/a-40692381
Did you read the entire article or only the obviously biased title, made by the editor? The article clearly says that the communities are divided.
Meanwhile, skirmishes have occured between Yazidis and Peshmerga, Turkmens feel clearly intimidated and threatened by the referendum and Arabs from Kirkuk have been thrown out of their homes.
Even Kurds have been deprived of their rights, as Barzani remains illegally head of their state. He's basically a dictator, but god forbids insulting one of America's best buddies in the region.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/11/03/krg-kurdish-forces-ejecting-arabs-kirkuk
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/Comment/2017/8/16/Iraqs-Yazidis-and-Assyrians-remain-unconvinced-by-Kurdistan-referendum
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/yazidis-who-suffered-genocide-are-fleeing-again-but-this-time-not-from-the-islamic-state/2017/03/21/6392fe26-0353-11e7-9d14-9724d48f5666_story.html?utm_term=.a5e8444d28a9
https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2017/09/11/turkmen-parties-in-krg-to-boycott-independence-referendum
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-997874
His presidential mandate was unconstitutionally extended again in 2015.
Kagemusha
10-05-2017, 13:17
Did you read the entire article or only the obviously biased title, made by the editor? The article clearly says that the communities are divided.
Meanwhile, skirmishes have occured between Yazidis and Peshmerga, Turkmens feel clearly intimidated and threatened by the referendum and Arabs from Kirkuk have been thrown out of their homes.
Even Kurds have been deprived of their rights, as Barzani remains illegally head of their state. He's basically a dictator, but god forbids insulting one of America's best buddies in the region.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/11/03/krg-kurdish-forces-ejecting-arabs-kirkuk
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/Comment/2017/8/16/Iraqs-Yazidis-and-Assyrians-remain-unconvinced-by-Kurdistan-referendum
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/yazidis-who-suffered-genocide-are-fleeing-again-but-this-time-not-from-the-islamic-state/2017/03/21/6392fe26-0353-11e7-9d14-9724d48f5666_story.html?utm_term=.a5e8444d28a9
https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2017/09/11/turkmen-parties-in-krg-to-boycott-independence-referendum
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-997874
His presidential mandate was unconstitutionally extended again in 2015.
Ive never claimed Kurdistan being anything perfect. Just comparing to Iraq, Syria,Turkey,Iran, never mind Isis, their political climate seems rather healthy. Considering Barzani. Iraq Kurdistan is holding general election for both Presidency and parliament, during 1st of November. I want to see those through before buying your rhetoric considering him.
What rhetoric exactly? Barzani has been the president of Iraqi Kurdistan since 2009, while the elections have been cancelled twice, in 2013 and 2015. That's a fact.
The referendum itself was declared exactly because of the upcoming elections in 2017. That means that his regime is less democratic than that of Turkey, Iran and Iraq.
His militia's irresponsibility is partially blamed for the Yazidi genocide and I just cited numerous cases of ethnic conflicts in Iraqi Kurdistan.
You never claimed it was perfect, but you obviously implied that minorities are happy with Barzani and his circle, something that was directly contradicted by your source and four others provided by me.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-us-favored-kurds-abandoned-the-yazidis-when-isis-attacked
Kagemusha
10-05-2017, 15:02
What rhetoric exactly? Barzani has been the president of Iraqi Kurdistan since 2009, while the elections have been cancelled twice, in 2013 and 2015. That's a fact.
The referendum itself was declared exactly because of the upcoming elections in 2017. That means that his regime is less democratic than that of Turkey, Iran and Iraq.
His militia's irresponsibility is partially blamed for the Yazidi genocide and I just cited numerous cases of ethnic conflicts in Iraqi Kurdistan.
You never claimed it was perfect, but you obviously implied that minorities are happy with Barzani and his circle, something that was directly contradicted by your source and four others provided by me.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-us-favored-kurds-abandoned-the-yazidis-when-isis-attacked
Like i said. Lets wait for the elections and then trash Barzani if necessary. 2013 and 2015 were pretty damn bad years to hold elections. War kind of disturbed the situation a bit.
Considering the Sinjar massacre. If the Kurdish commandant was a coward at the time when everyone had their butts handed by Isis, makes Kurdish responsible for the massacre. Strange enough why did the Yezidi join the Kurdish in the counteroffensive during 2015? Also if the Kurdish were plotting to leave the Yesidis for ISIS to be slaughtered, why were they so loud about discovering Yesidi mass craves when Sinjar was taken back? Surely they would have known their evil plans would have been revealed, why help such eventuality?
Where is Kurdish Spartacus when you want him...
Like i said. Lets wait for the elections and then trash Barzani if necessary. 2013 and 2015 were pretty damn bad years to hold elections. War kind of disturbed the situation a bit.
Even if his performance will be stellar his record as an authoritarian potentate is already blackened. That's a fact, a bit inconvenient one, but still a fact that renders Barzani a less democratic ruler than his colleagues in Iran, Iraq and Turkey.
I guess he beats Assad, though.
2013 was not a bad year, daesh was irrelevant and in any case held actually fewer lands than it does in 2017, so that excuse doesn't make sense. Not even Barzani has used it, presumably due to its irrationality.
But yeah, I'm sure that poor Barzani was forced to sacrifice his retirement for the good of the common fight against daesh. Even the Kurds disagreed with that assessment, but I guess that their opinion doesn't matter, when it doesn't suit the good old narrative of US allies always being beacons of democracy*.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/08/kurdish-parliament-speaker-challenge-barzani-legitimacy.html
Considering the Sinjar massacre. If the Kurdish commandant was a coward at the time when everyone had their butts handed by Isis, makes Kurdish responsible for the massacre. Strange enough why did the Yezidi join the Kurdish in the counteroffensive during 2015? Also if the Kurdish were plotting to leave the Yesidis for ISIS to be slaughtered, why were they so loud about discovering Yesidi mass craves when Sinjar was taken back? Surely they would have known their evil plans would have been revealed, why help such eventuality?
"Partially blamed". Of course, the bulk of responsibility lies with daesh. By the way, where did you get the conclusion that only the commander should be accused of Peshmergha's shameful behaviour?
*That's not directed at you, Kagemusha, but the general tendency of the media to positively portray all the actions of an authoritarian regime.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-05-2017, 21:47
Where is Kurdish Spartacus when you want him...
Peshmerga fighting for a free Thrace? :inquisitive:
rory_20_uk
10-06-2017, 09:57
If the Balkans are bad, the Middle East is an order of magnitude worse.
The Kurds probably do "deserve" their own state. But the UK has no more a role in this mess than discussing on an internet forum.
~:smoking:
Gilrandir
10-06-2017, 13:11
If the Balkans are bad, the Middle East is an order of magnitude worse.
Oh really?
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/mar/23/eden-reality-show-contestants-year-wilderness-no-one-watching
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-08-2017, 16:16
What rhetoric exactly?
"Manufactured Catalan Identity" for starters, next you'll be telling us there are no Bretons or Occitans, and no Welsh.
The Kurds are a large and prosperous minority within Iraq, they have shown themselves much better at governing themselves than the Iraqis are, this is why they want independence. For them, being part of Iraq is like having to live with your feckless, violent, uncle.
It's also fairly clear that the minorities that support them support them because they are more secular than the Arab and Assyrian Iraqi Muslims, the minorities who don't support them are less secular and inclusive than the Kurds. I.E, Christians and Turkmen who want their own state/province.
Now, that doesn't mean that an independent Kurdish state is necessarily the right thing but you have to look at it from more than just a 19th Century Imperial perspective. If one relatively small region is carrying a whole, much larger, country then there's an argument that region would be better off alone.
1. Kurdistan is not prosperous.
https://gpinvestigations.pri.org/the-curse-of-oil-in-iraqi-kurdistan-1c9a9a18efd1
2. How are they better at governing than Iraqis? Barzani is basically a dictator, Abadi isn't. You may want to apply different criteria, but your claim is just a subjective opinion, not a fact.
3. By definition, there are no Assyrian Iraqi Muslims. The term Assyrian carries some linguistic references, but it primarily is an indication of religion.
Hardly more secular than Turkmens or Christians (aka Assyrians). By the way, I have already linked articles citing the skepticism of Assyrian communities towards the referendum.
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/Comment/2017/8/16/Iraqs-Yazidis-and-Assyrians-remain-unconvinced-by-Kurdistan-referendum
Kagemusha
10-13-2017, 09:52
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-kurds-referendum-kirku/tens-of-thousands-of-kurdish-fighters-deployed-in-kirkuk-to-confront-iraqi-threats-idUSKBN1CI0UV
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/13/iraq-army-launches-operation-retake-kirkuk-kurdish-authorities/
Apparently Iraq government and Kurds are on the verge of war. I sure hope this can be avoided.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-13-2017, 18:36
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-kurds-referendum-kirku/tens-of-thousands-of-kurdish-fighters-deployed-in-kirkuk-to-confront-iraqi-threats-idUSKBN1CI0UV
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/13/iraq-army-launches-operation-retake-kirkuk-kurdish-authorities/
Apparently Iraq government and Kurds are on the verge of war. I sure hope this can be avoided.
I doubt it. The Kurds have always had that "chip on the shoulder" towards any government in Baghdad, and now they have had years of sustained military training and doctrine improvements courtesy of USA. I just hope the establishment of Kurdistan will involve relatively few deaths.
Apparently Iraq government and Kurds are on the verge of war. I sure hope this can be avoided.
Will go pretty badly for the Iraqi's..
Kagemusha
10-14-2017, 14:40
Will go pretty badly for the Iraqi's..
I agree, but dont like the idea still as there is lot better fighting to do then this.Both forces are still in standoff at the Kirkuk province border. I think it only pressure/ bluff from Iraqi government.
I agree, but dont like the idea still as there is lot better fighting to do then this.Both forces are still in standoff at the Kirkuk province border. I think it only pressure/ bluff from Iraqi government.
If I am honest, it would be in Iraq's interest to allow it to become independent. The Peshmerga have fought bravely for themselves and the neighbouring nations (like Iraq) in the battle against ISIS. They have proven themselves to be an potential ally in the region. They have been de-facto independent since Iraq effectively lost control of itself and this is more making that arrangement a formality.
The current borders in the region are an artificial creation from the British and French colonial possession in the area after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and fighting to enforce these borders is silly when there are more natural borders which can flourish and make the region more stable.
The middle-east really needs stability. The various wars, conflicts, civil wars, all cause the area to become toxic and a humanitarian crisis. If this can all be done without a single of a blood, it would be fantastic.
Kagemusha
10-14-2017, 17:12
Apparently Iraqi troops have given a deadline of 23:00 gmt today for Peshmerga to withdraw from threir positions at the border of Kirkuk province.
So the two enemies of ISIS that we paid and armed are now going to fight one another?
Is that another foreign policy victory?
I personally see the biggest problem here with the Iraqi side because however imperfect the Kurds may be at times, the Iraqi government failed to protect them and the very least they earned for fighting for themselves and in favor of the failing government would have been a thank you and a place at a table for talks over how to proceed. Just demanding they surrender now seems a bit...power hungry and arrogant?
Perhaps I'm missing something (not an expert on the area and didn't follow every event), but it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. :shrug:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-15-2017, 00:09
Will go pretty badly for the Iraqi's..
The Iraqi's have tanks and MiG Fighters.
There's a very good reason the US hasn't provided the Kurds any real armour.
HopAlongBunny
10-15-2017, 03:12
The Iraqi's have tanks and MiG Fighters.
There's a very good reason the US hasn't provided the Kurds any real armour.
Likely of some weight regarding any breakout
The Iraqi army has yet to show the discipline or morale the Kurds' have demonstrated.
I doubt Iraq can defeat the Kurd's within the territory they are claiming. Granted (unlike Iran) it is possibly an opponent they can bleed dry.
Does the Iraqi army have the stomach for it?
The Iraqi's have tanks and MiG Fighters.
There's a very good reason the US hasn't provided the Kurds any real armour.
Sure stopped ISIS in its tracks.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-15-2017, 05:11
The Iraqi's have tanks and MiG Fighters.
There's a very good reason the US hasn't provided the Kurds any real armour.
True, since neither the Iraqi government nor the Turks would have been happy with that level of force improvement.
Nevertheless, the peshmerga seem to be a decidedly better infantry force in terms of quality. Dzhugashvili's crew found such a force tough to beat despite numbers, tanks, and aircraft. The Kurds could well exceed expectations.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-15-2017, 17:48
Sure stopped ISIS in its tracks.
The Iraqi Army at the start of the war were basically what was left of the American's Golf Caddies. The Iraqi army now is battle hardened. The Kurds may still be better motivated but the Iraqi army is no longer apt to crumple at the first sign of pressure, and the Kurds aren't the insane zealots ISIS are.
Kagemusha
10-15-2017, 18:45
The Iraqi Army at the start of the war were basically what was left of the American's Golf Caddies. The Iraqi army now is battle hardened. The Kurds may still be better motivated but the Iraqi army is no longer apt to crumple at the first sign of pressure, and the Kurds aren't the insane zealots ISIS are.
Peshmerga have modern Western AT and AA missiles, also APC´s. US alone has given the Peshmerga equivalent of heavy equipment for two US Brigades worth 2.6 billion dollars. They also have tanks, but those are old Soviet types.
Sure stopped ISIS in its tracks.
Peshmerga also ran away from daesh. They are as untrained, incompetent and corrupted as the Iraqis. Now that the US stopped paying their salaries, things will probably deteriorate.
Their sudden route was a leading factor to the Yazidi genocide. If there's any conflict about Kirkuk without any foreign intervention, chances are that the city will be captured by the army. They will probably can't advance into predimoniantly Kurdish areas, though.
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/10/pentagon-stop-paying-peshmerga-salaries-iraq-kurdistan.html
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-us-favored-kurds-abandoned-the-yazidis-when-isis-attacked
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-15-2017, 20:47
Peshmerga have modern Western AT and AA missiles, also APC´s. US alone has given the Peshmerga equivalent of heavy equipment for two US Brigades worth 2.6 billion dollars. They also have tanks, but those are old Soviet types.
You need tanks to fight tanks, and jets to fight jets. AT and AA missiles are secondary defences that can help to deter the enemy or hold them off until your heavy hardware arrives.
Peshmerga also ran away from daesh. They are as untrained, incompetent and corrupted as the Iraqis. Now that the US stopped paying their salaries, things will probably deteriorate.
No, just no.
The Peshmerga withdrew from Sinjar (without protecting the civilian population) where the Iraqi army fled from Mosul, losing a lot of its equipment in the process, where it had all the advantage against IS.
Their sudden route was a leading factor to the Yazidi genocide. If there's any conflict about Kirkuk without any foreign intervention, chances are that the city will be captured by the army. They will probably can't advance into predimoniantly Kurdish areas, though.
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/10/pentagon-stop-paying-peshmerga-salaries-iraq-kurdistan.html
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-us-favored-kurds-abandoned-the-yazidis-when-isis-attacked
Again, "rout" is not the word. Having said that, without US material support the Kurds can't stand up to the Iraqi army and hold the ground they have taken, though they might decide to bleed the army white.
The bit about stipends was interesting, though, I think that might have more of a knock-on effect for the Kurdish economy than their direct combat power, though.
Kagemusha
10-15-2017, 21:13
You need tanks to fight tanks, and jets to fight jets. AT and AA missiles are secondary defences that can help to deter the enemy or hold them off until your heavy hardware arrives.
If you are defending you dont. The Iraqi air force is crap with outdated equipment, while it has been the West which has been providing the air support, which i cant see happening now. Modern AT missiles can handle modern tanks and are the only real option for a low budget force.
Montmorency
10-15-2017, 21:32
You need tanks to fight tanks, and jets to fight jets. AT and AA missiles are secondary defences that can help to deter the enemy or hold them off until your heavy hardware arrives.
Distinguishing AT from AA, hasn't defensive AT always held strategic advantages over tank-to-tank, even more so now than before the Cold War?
Distinguishing AT from AA, hasn't defensive AT always held strategic advantages over tank-to-tank, even more so now than before the Cold War?
Probably, and in the case of AA, I want to see PFH fly his jets into Russian airspace without worrying about the AA...
Surely the Peshmerga don't have the same AA, but he made it a generic statement and they aren't exactly unarmed.
Neither do the Iraqis seem to have a huge number of jets, perhaps not even the weapons required to stay well out of range of the Peshmerga AA.
Regarding AT weapons, didn't the Israelis lose 13 or so tanks against Hezbollah in Lebanon during their last excursion?
Surely the Merkava is more advanced than what they sold Iraq.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7s5lnjXR5s
No, just no.
The Peshmerga withdrew from Sinjar (without protecting the civilian population) where the Iraqi army fled from Mosul, losing a lot of its equipment in the process, where it had all the advantage against IS.
The article I linked uses repeatedly the word "flee" about the behaviour of commanders and the entire Peshmerga. It doesn't mention any huge equipment loss, because it's not its subject, but it clearly portrays a picture of a "hasty withdrawal" or otherwise rout, where checkpoints were abandoned and local units weren't even informed that their comrades had left.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-16-2017, 01:10
The article I linked uses repeatedly the word "flee" about the behaviour of commanders and the entire Peshmerga. It doesn't mention any huge equipment loss, because it's not its subject, but it clearly portrays a picture of a "hasty withdrawal" or otherwise rout, where checkpoints were abandoned and local units weren't even informed that their comrades had left.
It might use the word "flee", but reading between the lines it hardly sounded like a rout.
Kagemusha
10-16-2017, 07:35
Iraqi army/PMU have started an attack towards Kirkuk. Lot of very conflicting information is coming from different sources, but hopefully soon more clear information will arrive.
Edit: It would seem that the Peshmerga have been driven off from much of the open countryside West of Kirkuk and now they have withdrawn to urban areas of the city.
HopAlongBunny
10-16-2017, 12:39
Not much to add.
Sounds like it's on; the U.S. is calling for parties to return to negotiation:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/kirkuk-offensive-thousands-flee-iraq-army-advance-171016103540463.html
Kagemusha
10-16-2017, 13:59
It would seem that the city is falling. During the afternoon Iraqi forces have taken the K1 airbase, airport and the governors building and now moving in the city mostly unopposed.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-41631697
The city fell without a fight. There's some really awkward footage of Kurds withdrawing en mass (but not fleeing), fighting each other, mentally collapsing and blaming their commanders. Probably a deal was made, but it's not clear.
The_Donald has gone hysterical after predicting that brave Kurdish partisans will fight the cowardly "Iraqi-Iranian Quds" force to the death for the glory of America! Wishful thinking=/=reality.
As I said, Peshmerga is just a typical, semi-competent, somewhat corrupted militia of the Middle East, not superheroes. Don't watch too much Red Dawn.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-16-2017, 17:44
The city fell without a fight. There's some really awkward footage of Kurds withdrawing en mass (but not fleeing), fighting each other, mentally collapsing and blaming their commanders. Probably a deal was made, but it's not clear.
The_Donald has gone hysterical after predicting that brave Kurdish partisans will fight the cowardly "Iraqi-Iranian Quds" force to the death for the glory of America! Wishful thinking=/=reality.
As I said, Peshmerga is just a typical, semi-competent, somewhat corrupted militia of the Middle East, not superheroes. Don't watch too much Red Dawn.
Red Dawn was about 'Murricans. Altogether more heroic and self-effacing group. :grin2:
Kagemusha
10-16-2017, 18:08
Something very shady was going on. The PUK controlled Peshmerga Brigades apparently withdraw without any fight and KDP controlled ones gave fight, while the Brigades at the right flank of KDP positions are still at their positions. Now KDP is accusing PUK of treachery and making deals with PMU/Iran. Nevermind that, the attack was well coordinated and apparently the man responsible of coordinating the effort was once again the old fox Qasem Soleimani. Who have been running around the middle East fighting any enemies of Iran as "advisor".
Here is a link to Soleimani to those who are not familiar with him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qasem_Soleimani
Kagemusha
10-17-2017, 07:54
Apparently Iraqi army and PMU have started to advance in order to take the rest of the Tamim province where Kirkuk is located. Also Iraqi forces have pushed into the Kurdish occupied parts of Nineveh province to take back the control there. Peshmerga are not fighting back, but withdrawing back to the autonomous provinces of pre war Kurdistan. PUK forces to Southern part and KDP forces to central and Northern parts.
Kagemusha
10-17-2017, 08:43
Now Iraqi forces have also entered the Southern Diyala province in order to retake areas currently under Kurdish PUK control. Meanwhile the third largest party in Iraqi Kurdistan, Gorran is calling for the dissolution of the current government and establishment of Interim national government. Apparently the unity of Iraqi Kurdistan was nothing but a thin surface.
http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/171020171
I suspected that you used Rudaw as your source, when you mentioned Qasem Soleimani. It's already been proven to be fake news, the "news agency" actually posted a photo from 2016.
Rudaw is not serious, it's controlled directly by the Barzani clan. They are hardly any independent media in Kurdistan. When a Yazidi unit of the PMU replaced the fleeing Peshmerga in Sinjar, they called it as a conquest perpetrated by the Shia Hasd.
These guys are trolls hoping to emotionally trigger a neo-conservative American, they're not worthy of your time.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/iraq-kurdistan-free-independent-media-krg-rudaw.html
Kagemusha
10-17-2017, 09:45
I suspected that you used Rudaw as your source, when you mentioned Qasem Soleimani. It's already been proven to be fake news, the "news agency" actually posted a photo from 2016.
Rudaw is not serious, it's controlled directly by the Barzani clan. They are hardly any independent media in Kurdistan. When a Yazidi unit of the PMU replaced the fleeing Peshmerga in Sinjar, they called it as a conquest perpetrated by the Shia Hasd.
These guys are trolls hoping to emotionally trigger a neo-conservative American, they're not worthy of your time.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/iraq-kurdistan-free-independent-media-krg-rudaw.html
Rudaw is only one of the sources. If Rudaw is controlled by Barzani. Why is it then publishing Gorran´s call to dismantle the Barzani government?
Concerning Suleimani. The picture in the news is old one. Not the news: https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/iranian-general-qassem-soleimani-visits-iraqi-kurdistan-amid-standoff-with-baghdad-1.667526
The Quds commander has overseen many of the major operations including PMU forces, so i dont see why not this one. Do you have a source denying Soleimani´s presence in Kirkuk operation?
Kagemusha
10-17-2017, 13:07
Here is an outside analysis about what happened at Kirkuk from The New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/kurdish-dreams-of-independence-delayed-again/amp
Rudaw is only one of the sources. If Rudaw is controlled by Barzani. Why is it then publishing Gorran´s call to dismantle the Barzani government?
Concerning Suleimani. The picture in the news is old one. Not the news: https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/iranian-general-qassem-soleimani-visits-iraqi-kurdistan-amid-standoff-with-baghdad-1.667526
The Quds commander has overseen many of the major operations including PMU forces, so i dont see why not this one. Do you have a source denying Soleimani´s presence in Kirkuk operation?
It's common knowledge that the Rudaw Company is owned by Nechirvan Barzani. Because it's not officially a partisan media, it is obviously obligated to post about any major news.
https://kurdistantribune.com/nechirvan-barzanis-association-media-corruption-rudaw-company-as-example/
Do you have a source denying Nechirvan's ownership of Rudaw?
About Soleimani, I don't have any source about the leadership of the operation, but your National article simply describes a visit of Soleimani to the region and doesn't even claim that he was "responsible for coordinating the effort".
Given that mostly the Iraqi army participated and not the PMU, I doubt that Soleimani had something more than an advisory/auxiliary role.
Kagemusha
10-17-2017, 14:12
It's common knowledge that the Rudaw Company is owned by Nechirvan Barzani. Because it's not officially a partisan media, it is obviously obligated to post about any major news.
https://kurdistantribune.com/nechirvan-barzanis-association-media-corruption-rudaw-company-as-example/
Do you have a source denying Nechirvan's ownership of Rudaw?
About Soleimani, I don't have any source about the leadership of the operation, but your National article simply describes a visit of Soleimani to the region and doesn't even claim that he was "responsible for coordinating the effort".
Given that mostly the Iraqi army participated and not the PMU, I doubt that Soleimani had something more than an advisory/auxiliary role.'
It really doesnt matter who owns Rudawi, as the article was not Pro Barzani. You can read the same from the Gorran party twitter for example. Why do you want discredit a source without any reason? Or did you read the actual article at all?
About PMU there are lots of evidence of PMU participating at the Kirkuk. Photographs,Video,witnessess you name its there. Concerning Soleimani. He always only has "advisory/auxiliary role".He is not the commander of Quds for nothing...
I said mostly, not exclusively. Especially in what concerns the city proper, the major players were the Iraqi soldiers not the militiamen.
Soleimani has achieved some sort of cult status ever since he humiliated the American army in Karbala, but let's not attribute every success of the Iraqis to him, especially when there is no evidence, but on the contrary, most indicators point towards a different conclusion.
I don't want to slander Rudaw, it's just a site none takes seriously, Kurds included. I have cited already two articles underlining the bias of that channel and your only counter-argument is that they mentioned a statement from Gorran.
Rudaw is only one of the sources. If Rudaw is controlled by Barzani. Why is it then publishing Gorran´s call to dismantle the Barzani government?
Perhaps because its readers will be outraged by that and hate Gorran even more.
Like how anti EU sources would post an EU politician calling for the dismantling of the nation state because they know all their nationalistic readers will hate the EU even more for that.
Crandar seems to be correct about its bias, but perhaps not about noone taking it seriously. https://twitter.com/PollaGarmiany/status/881845517524840450
Perhaps not a very representative poll, but surely it has some followers, even if just among those who share its bias anyway.
The only thing I take away from this is that the Kurds seem about as divided as everyone else in the area. :dizzy2:
Kagemusha
10-17-2017, 14:52
I said mostly, not exclusively. Especially in what concerns the city proper, the major players were the Iraqi soldiers not the militiamen.
Soleimani has achieved some sort of cult status ever since he humiliated the American army in Karbala, but let's not attribute every success of the Iraqis to him, especially when there is no evidence, but on the contrary, most indicators point towards a different conclusion.
I don't want to slander Rudaw, it's just a site none takes seriously, Kurds included. I have cited already two articles underlining the bias of that channel and your only counter-argument is that they mentioned a statement from Gorran.
I can understand your opinion about Rudaw, but like i explained earlier.Its not the only source im looking at. So i respect your opinion and take it to consideration when looking at Rudaw as source.:bow:
I agree that PMU was not the only force by far at Kirkuk. PMU operated mostly at both flanks and took Kirkuk airport, while the main thrust was made by 9th armored division. In any case the Iraq Government and military is run by Shiia and Iran has lots of influence on both, while their representative many times seem to be General Soleimani.
Thanks Kagemusha, it's always welcome to have a nice and civil debate from time to time instead of the usual flame-wars found in other sites.
Crandar seems to be correct about its bias, but perhaps not about noone taking it seriously. https://twitter.com/PollaGarmiany/status/881845517524840450
Twitter is not very reliable, the poll might have been manipulated by bots and partisans. On the other hand, NRT and K24 are also biased, not sure about ARA news, though.
Kagemusha
10-17-2017, 17:25
Thanks Kagemusha, it's always welcome to have a nice and civil debate from time to time instead of the usual flame-wars found in other sites.
Thank you Crandar. The feeling is mutual.:yes:
Twitter is not very reliable, the poll might have been manipulated by bots and partisans. On the other hand, NRT and K24 are also biased, not sure about ARA news, though.
That's why I said it might not be reliable and just used it as a vague indicator.
Good to see we can all get along though, if only the Middle East could debate issues in a friendly manner. :sweatdrop:
Kagemusha
10-20-2017, 09:43
Peshmerga and Iraq counter terrorism units are clashing at the Kirkuk´s Northern border town with Erbil at Altun Kupri. Apparently Peshmerga have blown up the town bridge which leads towards Erbil. Lots of strange claims about whats happening. There are reports of US Apache and Chinook helicopters at the sky. Very confusing once again.
Kagemusha
10-20-2017, 15:04
Kurdish forces are claiming to destroyed 10 Iraqi Humwee´s and 1 M1 Abrams tank so far. Iraqi claim to have captured lot of Kurdish artillery. Source´s even differ where the actual fight is taking place. Some are saying at Northern end of the town, while others North of the town. The only thing which is clear is that a real battle between these two sides have erupted.
I forgot about this, but on the topic of the Peshmerga being a bunch of militia rabble and the current situation:
The German army just said that the training of Peshmerga fighters can continue soon, as the fighting between them and the Iraqi army has stopped. I remembered that we gave the Kurds some weapons (though I wasn't sure about which group), but we obviously also trained them.
So unless anyone wants to claim that German army training turns fighters into militia rabble ( :stare: ), I doubt that is what they are now.
It's not sure though whether that's the latest info given the other sources about the fighting going on.
Montmorency
10-20-2017, 21:33
I forgot about this, but on the topic of the Peshmerga being a bunch of militia rabble and the current situation:
The German army just said that the training of Peshmerga fighters can continue soon, as the fighting between them and the Iraqi army has stopped. I remembered that we gave the Kurds some weapons (though I wasn't sure about which group), but we obviously also trained them.
So unless anyone wants to claim that German army training turns fighters into militia rabble ( :stare: ), I doubt that is what they are now.
It's not sure though whether that's the latest info given the other sources about the fighting going on.
Then the Afghan National Army should be among the best fighting forces in the world right now, having been trained by the US military for 15 years.
Of course that's not how it works. You have to consider access in terms of the time and place and duration of training, constraints and resources with respect to numbers, the type of training and the role or skillsets of the trainers and the trainees...
Not to mention how much the trainees actually care, whether in absorbing the training or putting it to use independently.
Kagemusha
10-20-2017, 22:40
I think in the following days we will witness better what will happen. In worst case scenario there will be internal conflict in Kurdistan. In best case scenario negotiations with Iraq will start and soon enough some sort of settlement will be done. Maybe afterwards Kurdish can settle their internal issues via elections. In any case the Peshmerga today seemed like nothing like the disorderly mob at Kirkuk, but stuck to their positions and gave fight to The Iraqis.This all is speculation, but it might be that the Iraqi PMU got carried away a bit and kept pushing too far, which the Peshmerga capitalized. At least the good thing is that the Kurdish forces decided to fight outside the town, not inside with civilians in the middle, so there is at least bit more humanity involved in today¨s fight compared to fights with ISIS as participant.
Then the Afghan National Army should be among the best fighting forces in the world right now, having been trained by the US military for 15 years.
Of course that's not how it works. You have to consider access in terms of the time and place and duration of training, constraints and resources with respect to numbers, the type of training and the role or skillsets of the trainers and the trainees...
Not to mention how much the trainees actually care, whether in absorbing the training or putting it to use independently.
Yes, but given that they were more or less fighting for their lives and those of their families, I thought they'd at least be motivated to learn.
The Afghans can partially arrange themselves with the Taliban I guess and the Iraqi army apparently failed until it was fighting for Baghdad and is now also called well-trained and battle-hardened etc. :shrug:
Kagemusha
10-20-2017, 23:05
Here is a good article about what the US diplomats tried to achieve before the events at Kirkuk: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/view/articles/2017-10-20/u-s-tried-and-failed-to-stave-off-iraq-s-advance-on-the-kurds
Here another one about what happened today at the Kirkuk/Erbil border: http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-iraq-kurdish-fighting-20171020-story.html
Montmorency
10-20-2017, 23:20
Yes, but given that they were more or less fighting for their lives and those of their families, I thought they'd at least be motivated to learn.
The Afghans can partially arrange themselves with the Taliban I guess and the Iraqi army apparently failed until it was fighting for Baghdad and is now also called well-trained and battle-hardened etc. :shrug:
Maybe. But I think you realized, I was being pedantic specifically regarding
So unless anyone wants to claim that German army training turns fighters into militia rabble ( ), I doubt that is what they are now.
It's a weakness. ~:)
Kagemusha
10-20-2017, 23:36
Look Monty Germans also trained the first forces of independent Finland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4ger_Movement
We have ever since yet to win a single war and likely never will. I blame the krauts.~D
Maybe. But I think you realized, I was being pedantic specifically regarding
It's a weakness. ~:)
Yes, I wasn't entirely serious with my original statement, but your points are still valid and I didn't think too much about it at first.
It's a weakness. ~;)
Look Monty Germans also trained the first forces of independent Finland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4ger_Movement
We have ever since yet to win a single war and likely never will. I blame the krauts.~D
If that happened in 1914, maybe it was bad training by design... ~;)
Gilrandir
10-21-2017, 13:36
So unless anyone wants to claim that German army training turns fighters into militia rabble ( :stare: ), I doubt that is what they are now.
Then the Afghan National Army should be among the best fighting forces in the world right now, having been trained by the US military for 15 years.
Perhaps Germans are better at training locals?
Pannonian
10-21-2017, 13:55
Perhaps Germans are better at training locals?
From what I've heard the Germans aren't very good at training the locals in Germany.
Gilrandir
10-21-2017, 15:29
From what I've heard the Germans aren't very good at training the locals in Germany.
You mean the ones that became locals a couple of odd months ago?
Pannonian
10-21-2017, 15:30
You mean the ones that became locals a couple of odd months ago?
You wot?
Gilrandir
10-21-2017, 15:36
You wot?
The immigrants aka refugees aka intruders aka nuisance aka the reason why Brexit should happen asap.
Pannonian
10-21-2017, 17:19
The immigrants aka refugees aka intruders aka nuisance aka the reason why Brexit should happen asap.
I was talking about the Bundeswehr, which is notoriously bloated and inefficient.
Kagemusha
10-21-2017, 17:58
I was talking about the Bundeswehr, which is notoriously bloated and inefficient.
I bet that is for the best for everybody...
19972
Kagemusha
10-24-2017, 11:59
Apparently new clashes have broken out between Iraqi and Kurdish forces at several locations including: Rabiah, Mahmudiya and Makhmour. It seems that the Iraqi forces have been stopped by Peshmerga at all three locations.
Kadagar_AV
10-25-2017, 04:11
In all fairness, let us remember that Kurdish women did more and before - anything the west ever did to stop IS.
The Kurds are, like, the only ARAB ethnic group to be non-muslim, and they have endured vs Islam for ages.
Personally I respect any kurdish woman at the front more than I do the western combined military forces.
Not sure if trolling or being serious.
Anyway, Kurds are not Arabs, their language (Indo-European) doesn't even belong to the same family of Arabic (Semitic), Kurds are Muslims (in average, Turkish Kurds are more religious than the rest of the population) and the women Kurdish fighters belong to the YPG not to the forces of Iraqi Kurdistan, which has hostile relations with the Kurds of Syria.
In other news:
https://i.imgur.com/kuSktPQ.jpg
http://www.institutkurde.org/en/institute/who_are_the_kurds.php
Having put up fierce resistance to the Arabo-Muslim invasions, the Kurds ended up joining Islam, without, as a result, becoming Arabized.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29702440
Today, they form a distinctive community, united through race, culture and language, even though they have no standard dialect. They also adhere to a number of different religions and creeds, although the majority are Sunni Muslims.
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/culture-miscellaneous/difference-between-kurds-and-arabs-2/
Both ethnic groups have their own distinct languages. Arabs have the Arabic language, together with a numerical system. Kurds, meanwhile, speak Kurdish.
Kurds are often the minority ethnic group in any country they find settlement (aside from Kurdistan) while Arabs tend to be the major ethnic group in the same area. This results in clashes between the two ethnic groups in those areas.
Totally with you on respecting women in general. :2thumbsup:
Kadagar_AV
10-25-2017, 09:50
wrote stuff
My bad, they are genetically from the same breed as Iranians, closest to Europeans in that region.
With those genes it's no wonder they put up a fight, and a good one at it.
*Yepp, I so totally 100% did this as a mental mine*
Gilrandir
10-25-2017, 11:06
Anyway, Kurds are not Arabs, their language (Indo-European) doesn't even belong to the same family of Arabic (Semitic)
While I agree on the stated fact I would caution against making conclusions about ethnic kinship on the grounds of the languages belonging to the same family. For example, Hungarians are totally European in their appearance, but their language is cognate to those used by Syberians ethnicities (Khanty and Mansi) whose appearance is more of the Mongol type.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-25-2017, 17:09
My bad, they are genetically from the same breed as Iranians, closest to Europeans in that region.
With those genes it's no wonder they put up a fight, and a good one at it.
*Yepp, I so totally 100% did this as a mental mine*
There is ZIP connecting genes with fighting ability, aside from basic physical characteristics. The relevance of cultural values to fighting ability is quite significant, but culture (however deeply ingrained) is a social construct not a genetic trait.
Though I have heard some USA ex-soldiers wondering if there WERE a gene running through the German portion of the genome that made Germans skilled as panzertruppen, since they were far too good in wargames against the USA given their lack of training time in comparison to USA tankers and armored infantry.
Kadagar_AV
10-25-2017, 21:19
There is ZIP connecting genes with fighting ability, aside from basic physical characteristics. The relevance of cultural values to fighting ability is quite significant, but culture (however deeply ingrained) is a social construct not a genetic trait.
Though I have heard some USA ex-soldiers wondering if there WERE a gene running through the German portion of the genome that made Germans skilled as panzertruppen, since they were far too good in wargames against the USA given their lack of training time in comparison to USA tankers and armored infantry.
There is an engineer in all Germans, more or less.
That is what I love about Austria, An Austrian is basically what you get when you remove the rod from a Germans arse.
Same discipline and stuff, just way more relaxed.
As soon as warfare became "systematic" and about engineering, it's no wonder Germans excelled at it.
Kagemusha
10-26-2017, 09:15
Iraq forces have resumed their attacks at multiple locations around the Northern Nineveh province. Iraqi forces claim 8 captured Peshmerga. Peshmerga forces claim to have destroyed 2 tanks,3 Humwees and 1 armored Badger vehicle.
Kagemusha
10-26-2017, 19:17
Apparently Kurdish forces have held their ground and stopped all the attacks made by Iraqi forces again. Lots and lots conflicting information as always.
Here is a good article about what happened today:
http://theregion.org/article/11854-pmf-continues-attacks-on-peshmerga-while-baghdad-ignores-erbil-039-s-peace-offering
Gilrandir
10-29-2017, 06:19
I heard that Barzani resigned. Can't find English language sources on it, though.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-29-2017, 15:28
Apparently Kurdish forces have held their ground and stopped all the attacks made by Iraqi forces again. Lots and lots conflicting information as always.
Here is a good article about what happened today:
http://theregion.org/article/11854-pmf-continues-attacks-on-peshmerga-while-baghdad-ignores-erbil-039-s-peace-offering
oopsie....
unless the Catalans are bringing in peshmerga troops for an assist? ~D
Kagemusha
10-29-2017, 19:27
I heard that Barzani resigned. Can't find English language sources on it, though.
Yes. That is true. He did not extend his presidency any further and is stepping down 1st of November. I think this is a good thing for Kurdistan in the long run. He has been in power for very long time already and dictatorship allegations have been flying around for quite a while.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/masoud-barzani-step-krg-president-171029161347180.html
The power remains in the dynasty. The really positive side is that Barzani's son is upset that his cousin received the most, so the ensuing "civil war" among the clan may result in their collapse.
"Protesters" controlled by the disgruntled son invaded the parliament and attacked violently MPs and journalists, as a show against the nephew of Barzani.
Kagemusha
10-29-2017, 22:39
The power remains in the dynasty. The really positive side is that Barzani's son is upset that his cousin received the most, so the ensuing "civil war" among the clan may result in their collapse.
"Protesters" controlled by the disgruntled son invaded the parliament and attacked violently MPs and journalists, as a show against the nephew of Barzani.
Hopefully the Barzani boys will screw up like the Talabani boys did, but of course hopefully with less of an negative impact. I agree that these warlord dynasties have to go if any real progress is to be made.
It is interesting to see who will be the next president. I think one good option would be this fellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosrat_Rasul_Ali
He didnt seem to be part of the Talabani boys plot over Kirkuk with Iran and seems to be in quite good terms also with KDP. He seems to have quite large popularity with the general population as well.
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