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FearedSangsara
11-04-2000, 23:53
Hello all,

I can't for the life of me figure out how the hell the honor system works. I have been told so many different things. Some make sense, some are kind of ify, and some seem completly ludicrous. I imagine the completely ludicrous answers are probably the right ones. But anyways, I would really appreciate if someone could lay-out for all of us an easy to understand idiot's guide to the Honor system.

2 nights ago I had 129 honor. Even though I had a 5 game losing streak it had gone up. Then, last night I won 7 games in a row, all comp, and now I have an honor of 115. Um, does that make sense? I have seen people who will play big games (4,6,8 people) and if 1 or more of their allies drop, they will withdraw their entire army. When I ask them why, they say they dont want to lose honour. Um, how in the world can running from a fight be more beneficial to honor then fighting to the last man!?!?

This honor system has baffled me for a long time. PLEASE, I beg one of you utter STW junkies (you know, the ones who know every attack level of every unit, etc etc) to please write us all an idiot's guide to the honor system in AS NEAR TO LAMEN'S TERMS AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN so idiot's like me will understand. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Thanks

Sangsara

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a.k.a. Sal Paradise

Rob
11-05-2000, 03:57
OK, this is it as I understand:

Your honour is the average of your last 30 battles. No more, no less. So all those players who have played 100's of battles could really fall in honour if they have a 30-game losing streak http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

After each battle, you get a score. This is based on the honour of the person you played against. Your score = enemy's honour + 50. This mean your score will be really high if you beat a high-honour player. However, it can also be really low if you beat a low-honour player.

Say you beat a player of honour 120. Your score would be 170, and your average would go up.

Now what if you beat a player of honour 30? Your score would be 80, which is lower than your average!

This is how you can lose honour despite winning.

So your current honour is the average of the last 30 results. If you fight lots of low-honour people it will drag your honour down, even if you win.

There are more subtle things here too. Imagine that you beat a top-ranked player, who has honour of 150. You get a score from that game of 200. This should give a good boost to your average. However, once you have played another 30 games, that high scoring game no longer contributes to your average, since it is no longer one of your last 30 games. This can lead to sudden drops in honour when good results are 'bumped off'. Equally your honour can go up a lot when a bad defeat is bumped off.

FearedSangsara
11-05-2000, 04:41
Thanks Rob for explaining.

2 questions, 1 to you and 1 that is rhetorical.

1) What about the honor stats u see when a battle is over. I have been told that if you lose a unit, for example a no-dachi unit with 2 honor, you will lose that honor, in this case u lose 2 honor. And if you wipe out somebody's unit, you gain their honor. Is this true? Does the honor window at the end of a battle have any actual meaning in a multiplayer game?


2) WTF is with losing honor fighting newbies!?!? How the hell can you control who join's your games!?! I mean, everytime I enter a game, do I need to go to the website, wait for that slow ass page to load up and then check out what honor level that person has before I play them!? That is SO dumb. I mean it makes sense if you beat someone with a equal or higher honor rating then you, but there should be some kind of a cap. YOU SHOULD NOT LOSE HONOR FOR WINNING!!!!
Can I get one of you guys at Dreamtime to comment on this please!?!?

Arg thats frustrating!!! http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net4/frusty.gif


Sangsara

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a.k.a. Sal Paradise

Rob
11-05-2000, 05:04
Question 1 :

The info in the victory screen does not affect your score at all. The score you will get is entirely determined by your enemy's honour, not the individual honour of his troops. It does not matter how you win or lose, it counts for the same score in the end.

I know question 2 was not aimed at me, but I will answer part of it anyway http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

At first it seems you are right, of course players should not lose honour by winning. Those players who have spent time building up a high ranking don't want to lose it becuase some guy with dreadful honour joins his game. This has the effect of making a lot of high-ranking players wary of playing competetive games. This is bad for everyone, since these players will basically refuse to play anyone who does not have high enough honour.

So the solution surely would be to guarantee a minimum score to the winner of every battle, right? That way you can play and know you will always gain a score of some kind from the battle.

There is one big problem here though : cheating. This opens the door to a particular kind of cheating. I first saw something like this in MS Allegiance, which had a similar ranking system.

Imagine, if you will, two wannabe cheaters, Lamer 1 and Lamer 2. They both want to get high honour so they can come into the EA lobby and be abusive to people http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

So they set up two characters each. Lamer 1 logs in with his character, hosts a game and lamer 2 join. The battle begins, lamer 2 routs immediately. Lamer 1 gains some honour. They then repeat this ad infinitum. Since Lamer 1 will ALWAYS gain honour no matter how many times he beats Lamer 2, he can quickly build up high honour.

They can then repeat the process for Lamer 2.

This is just one reason why it would be foolish to get rid of the current system without thinking.

IMO the best solution would be to allow people to see honour ratings of players who join their game. At least this allows people to avoid very low honour players.

Shimazu Tokugawa
11-05-2000, 06:50
Yes and at some point Lamer 2's honor is so low it will drag down Lamer 1's honor, so they just have to create Lamer 3 and so on...

The baseline is, this system stinks and you have to come up with your own solution because EA will not help you.
Two possibilities
- stop playing comp games
- give a ratsass about the whole ranking

I personally went with the latter one after I won eight out of ten games in a row and my honor dropped from 118 to 111....as I won against some guys with honor 84 etc.

And yes, it is frustrating.

Humbley,
ST

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"Strength and Honor for Clan Kenchikuka"

[This message has been edited by Shimazu Tokugawa (edited 11-05-2000).]

Obake
11-05-2000, 09:11
I want to make a couple of points regarding the honor system.

First off I want to clarify rob's initial description. When you win a battle, you get your opponents honor +50 just as Rob said. However, this amount is capped. In other words, no matter WHO you beat, the most points you will get is YOUR current honor +50.

Here's a quick example, your honor is 110, and your opponents is 140. You win the battle. Since there is a cap in place, you don't get the 190 points! You only get 160 (your honor +50).

It works exactly the opposite if you lose. You lose your opponents honor -50 (with the same cap of your honor -50). Where this really comes in to play is if you keep beating players who's honor is more than 50 points below yours. By the same token, if you keep losing to players who's honor is more than 50 points higher than yours, you will gain in honor even though you lost!

I won't address the 30 game rolling average since you all did a good job of that already, except to say that I think it should be cumulative rather than a rolling average.

One other point that I want to make VERY clear is that CA/DT (EA can go rot for all I care) are working VERY hard to come up with a script that will show everyone's honor while they are online. Having this is very important for exactly the reasons being discussed here. That will ensure people that they are not fighting a no-win battle as far as honor is concerned.

Many will say that this is unfair in that it will create divisions within the online ranks. I disagree with this perspective as I believe that the whole point of a ladder ranking system is to work your way up!

Hope this provides a bit more illumination on the whole honor thing!

Obake

Rob
11-05-2000, 09:28
I don't think you can gain honour by losing. I though that your score was always capped to your honour -50, that is to say you can never score MORE than your honour -50 when losing, though you can score less when winning http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Maybe I am mistaken tho... will have to check

Methabaron
11-05-2000, 12:17
Obake is right, honour calcs are capped. This is the key.

There are two main types of honour:

1)The particular battle honour score.
2)Your global official honour for the final rank (average of the last 30 particular battle honour scores).


Also, according to the current system you should never have particular battle score less than your global honour by winning and you should never have particular battle score higher than your global honour when loosing. Look:

The particular battle honour score is calculated like this:

Winners honour = ((average of all losing players current honour) capped to within 50 of winners current honour) + 50

Losers honour = ((average of all winning players current honour) capped to within 50 of losers current honour) - 50

Exemple:

I am 105 honour and I beat someone with honour 20. According to the formula above:

average of all losing players current honour = 20

Next you capp it to within 50 of my honour, that is 55 (since 105-50 = 55).

Next you add 50 for a total of 105.

Your global honour ( for your rank) is calculated like this:

Next you do the average of your last 30 games. Imagine that in the game played 31 battles ago you scored a game honour of 110. Thats the trick!!!, if 31 games ago you scored 110 and now you scored 105, your 30 games average will be now reduced because 105 < 110!!! see what I mean?

By the same token you could also increase your global honour (rank) by loosing!!!, but probably you have to loose against a high ranked player. The same logic applies here.

Exemple:

I have 105 honour and I am defeated by someone with 165:

The particular battle honour score is calculated like this:

average of all winning players current honour = 165

Next you capp it to within 50 of my honour, that is 155 (since 105+50 = 155).

Next you substract 50 for a total of 105 (again!!)

Your global honour ( for your rank) is calculated like this:

Next you do the average of your last 30 games. Imagine that in the game played 31 battles ago you scored a game honour of 80. Again same logic!!!, if 31 games ago you scored 80 and now you scored 105, your 30 games average will be now increased because 105 > 80!!! see what I mean

Heheee, hopefully you dont have a headache after this!!!

Bottom line can get as complicated as you wish but the general recommendation would be:

1- Dont loose against people with less honour than you !!!

2- Try by all means to win over ppl with better honour than you !!!

3- You should try avoiding ppl with honour less than your honour-50 unless you had a really bad strike during the first games of your current last 30 games.

For players that REALLY care about ladder EA should have a better way to display the particular battle scores for the past 30 games so they can calculate the lower honour they can play.

Let's assume my honour is 105 and 30 games ago I scored 130 (particular battle score, not global score) . In this case I would not like to play anyone below 80 (130-50) because below that I would loose ranks no matter the outcome.

Similarly there would be a high ranked player that not matter the outcome you will gain honour!!. Let's see.
Let's assume my honour is 105 and 30 games ago I scored 70(particular battle score, not global score) . In this case if I play someone above 120 (70+50) I would always gain honour, even if I loose!!

Metha


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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

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Methabaron
11-05-2000, 12:49
Lol, hopefully that was clear...

Metha

Methabaron
11-05-2000, 13:15
I think I got the record for post edited the most times. That deserves something!!

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

11-05-2000, 13:36
oh ya, some slapping would surely help you...

lol

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the great lord http://www.geocities.com/vinyljock/monn_t.gif jd

Link Shumeisan
11-05-2000, 15:45
Nice explanation Methabaron !

Methabaron
11-05-2000, 16:41
Actually EA should display the ranks and the score achieved 30 battles ago for everybody. This way it will make easier the life of many.

If they can do this within the game server great. If not, at least a quick link from within the game to the info server will do.

Also, does the global rank updates automatically or only after 24 hours?

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

The Black Ship
11-05-2000, 19:05
Pretty sure I read that they were working on having rankings displayable from the chat windows. I know this feature was one I asked for...and I don't even play comp games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Rodhern
11-05-2000, 22:00
Thanks Methabaron, I have wondered about the explanation on the totalwar.com-homepage. Glad you took the time to fit in some parentheses.

clairobscur
11-06-2000, 02:24
Metha :

Are you sure of what you wrote? It's exactly what is implied by the formula given on the totalwar site, indeed.
But, as you pointed out, there's no way you can score less than your honor when winning, even against someone with a very low honor (of course, you can still loose honor, as once again you pointed out, if your score, 30 battles ago was better).

As I read so much times on the boards that when fighting low ranking players, players with high honor were loosing honor, scoring less than their current honor, etc..., I assumed it was true. And for this reason, I assumed that the formula given on the official site was incorrect (misplaced parenthesis) and that the score was capped, and not the "average of all..etc..", as it was the only possible way to explain that you could score less than your current honor when winning, or more than your current honor when losing.

If you're right, it implies that these players only loose honor (if they really did) because their score 30 battles ago was better than their new score. Perhaps it was exactly their point and *I* totally misunderstood what they were complaining about, but I'm quite sure I read that you could score less than your current honor when winning.

So, I have to suppose that these complaints were not based upon real experiences and checking, but on misunderstanding of the honor system and rumors...Are you sure of it?

clairobscur
11-06-2000, 02:27
By the way, the number of wins/losses and the current honor are updated immediatly, but the rank is only updated on a 24 h basis.

Obake
11-06-2000, 05:05
OK people here we go again. YOUR honor is only considered for capping purposes. If your honor is 120 and you beat someone who's honor is only 50, you get 100 points for that battle (their honor of 50, +50 for winning). This WILL drop your honor! If you have honor of 50 and the person you BEAT has honor of 120, you will AGAIN only get 100 points (their honor of 120 +50 for the win = 170, but since you are capped to your honor + 50, you only get 100 points!)

If your honor is 120 and you LOSE to a person with 50 honor, you will get 70 points for losing (their honor of 50 -50 for the loss = 0, but you are capped to your honor of 120, -50). If your honor is 50 and you lose to a player with 120 honor, you will get 70 points (their honor of 120 -50 for the loss.)

The caps of + or - 50 will only come in to play if the person you are playing against is more than 50 points higher/lower than your honor!

It IS possible for a person with low rank to GAIN honor by losing, and it is also possible for a person to LOSE honor by winning! That is the main contention with the ranking system as it stands.

As mentioned previously, CA/DT is trying to come up with a script that will display a person's honor in the foyer. The hope is that this will be part of the next patch (which is due in.......two weeks! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif ).

Clair is right that honor is updated immediately even though the rankings are only done once a day.

Obake

Widda
11-06-2000, 05:16
Personally I like the fact that you can lose Honor to beating Low Honor warriors. This I feel stops the big guns destroying the beginners. Although I certianly agree that we need an easy and fast way to see the Honor of our oppenents in the game window and the lobby.

Game window for those about to join a game and lobby window for those hosting the game!

Thus the current system is fine although a little obscure! I did however assume that the current honor was the average of all games not just the last 30.

My 2 koku.

[This message has been edited by Widda (edited 11-05-2000).]

clairobscur
11-06-2000, 05:48
Well. It seems that really nobody knows for sure how the honor is calculated, as Metha and Obake just gave two contradictory explanations. Well...I hope that someday, someone from shogun team will give the *exact* information.

By the way, there's no doubt at least upon the fact that your honor is an average of the 30 last battles only...

Makino Kenta
11-06-2000, 06:00
What I don't understand is why there just isn't a simple rule put into the whole thing...

do all the math normaly, and when you come up with the final tottal, check the win/loss status of the person being calcuated for, and if they had won, and their honor would drop from this game, it doesn't move at all.

I guess that would cause problems with the last 30 game avg. Unless the score given was an avg of the last 30 games...

so say your honor is currently 120, and the score you would of gotten from the game is 110, even tho you won, it would be adjusted to match what your curent honor is and there for cause no change in the honor or at least a limited one unless there was a huge differance between what happend 31 games ago.

Just a thought http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Rob
11-06-2000, 06:03
Widda you are mistaken about the honour system protecting newbies. All new players start with honour 100. So if I only ever play newbies, my score will always be 150 (100 honour + 50 for the win). This is enough to be ranked third at the moment!

Widda
11-06-2000, 07:34
Goddamitbloodydoubleposts mumble munble...

Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Widda (edited 11-06-2000).]

Widda
11-06-2000, 07:38
Sorry Rob, what I meant by 'beginners' is those who are still learning, not necessarily those just starting. The warriors with low honor who keep fighting trying to claw their way back up the tables. These are those that I assume the designers are trying to protect somewhat.

There is no Honor in kicking a dog!

Widda.

Methabaron
11-06-2000, 10:59
I think the most important part in these calculations is to keep in mind and remember that there are TWO classes of Honour we deal here with:

1- The particular battle score which is calculated with the formula shown in my post above that is published in the community forum.

2- The honour for the ladder rank, which is a simple average of the past 30 particular battle scores !!

Once you learn that and realize its consequences it is easy to understand the system.

Obake (check the formulas for the battle score: first you cap your opponet's honour within 50 of your honour, THEN you add/substract the 50 points depending on if you win/loose. Remeber also that you cap your opponet's honour ONLY if the difference with yours is more than 50!), some corrections:

Quote If your honor is 120 and you beat someone who's honor is only 50, you get 100 points for that battle (their honor of 50, +50 for winning). This WILL drop your honor![/QUOTE]

I think this is wrong.

Fisrt you have to cap the loser honour within 50 of yours, that is 70 !, THEN you add 50 and thats your battle score, that is 70+50 = 120

This number, 120, is just your battle score !!!, not the honour for the ladder ranks!!

To calculate the honour for the ladder ranks you have to do the average of the last 30 battle scores. Now if 31 battles ago your score was higher than 120 then you are going to loose honour/rank this time !


Quote If you have honor of 50 and the person you BEAT has honor of 120, you will AGAIN only get 100 points (their honor of 120 +50 for the win = 170, but since you are capped to your honor + 50, you only get 100 points!)[/QUOTE]

Wrong again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Here you do this: cap 120 within 50 of your honour (50), that is 100; THEN add 50, for a total of 150 !!

This 150 is you battle score.
Now do the average of the last 30 scores and you get your honour for the ladder ranks


Quote If your honor is 120 and you LOSE to a person with 50 honor, you will get 70 points for losing (their honor of 50 -50 for the loss = 0, but you are capped to your honor of 120, -50).[/QUOTE]

Ahem, http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
here you cap the winner honour within 50 of your honour (120), that is 70. THEN you substract 50, for a total of 20 !. This 20 is your battle score. Now do the average of the las 30 to have your honour for the ladder ranks.


Quote If your honor is 50 and you lose to a player with 120 honor, you will get 70 points (their honor of 120 -50 for the loss.)[/QUOTE]

Lol,

Cap 120 within 50 of your honour (50), that is 100, THEN you substract 50, for a total of 50 !. That 50 is your battle score. Then you have to do the 30 last scores avergae to get your new honour for the ladder ranks...

Etc etc

So, what happened is that you can never have a battle score less than your honour if you win, and also you can never have a battle score higher than your honour if you loose.

But this is more or less irrelevant, because what matters is the difference between the score you just had in your last battle and the one 31 battles ago !!

If the new score is higher than the one 31 battles ago then your honour for the ladder ranks will increase because your average has increased. If in the other hand your new score is lower than your score 31 battles ago then you loose honour and ranks because your 30 games average score has dropped!

This is why I suggested that we should have NOT ONLY our honour/rank displayed but also the score we had 30 battles ago !!!, knowing those is the only way I make sure if some players are No-No's. Exemple, if 30 battles ago i scored 120 and my current honour is 100 I will not play ny next battle against someone with honour less than 70. In this case it doesnt matter if I win or loose. I know for a fact that my score will never be higher than 120 and hence my 30 games average will drop !!

Metha

PS: one day ill do posts in one go ok?


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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent...

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Link Shumeisan
11-06-2000, 12:18
I think that's as Methabaron pointed, the honour is capped "up and down" within 50 of your honour but I could not verify it yet...
I think this capped thing explains the high jump in honour some people (including me) had just before the ranks resetting.

Obake
11-06-2000, 21:38
Metha is right folks!

I re-read The Shogun's post regarding how honor is currently being handled. What I was pushing was actually the OLD way honor was handled BEFORE the league rankings were re-set!

Use Metha's description when trying to figure out the rankings and ignore mine! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Obake

clairobscur
11-07-2000, 00:07
Obake : To say the truth, I don't think they changed the way honor is caculated. They changed the *formula* displayed on totalwar.com site. Is this formula more accurate than the one which appeared before (in that case, metha is right) or not, I'm unsure of it. I would believe it more easily if I haven't read so much posts stating it doesn't work this way. I would like STW team to confirm that the new formula is indeed the good one. Meanwhile I'm still wondering if the numerous complainers spoke out of real experience (erroneous formula) or because they merely misunderstood the system...

DragonCat
11-15-2000, 11:02
ok, after checking my battles, I find that if I win the next 15 games I will have gotten over all my bad games and can get back to a good rank. Dang Magyarkhan. I knew I shouldn't fight him so much . . . .

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

FeartheolD
11-20-2000, 15:38
I have had real problems with this honour system.

I have dropped over 25 points over a week LOL from 143 to 112 I know that is over 25 but i said a week.

I have now risen a little again up to 125 honour.

Now I always check the honour of a player I never play anyone under 80

I have rarely lose a whole unit and if I do then it will be low ranked unit during one game I gained 8 honour and the player was 112 honour but I lost 6 honour points explain that.

I have played with Several times with players who have more honour than me on the same team, gained 4 honour points during a game. My honour has dropped but theirs has increased explain that.

And no I had only lost 2 of my last 30 games so it wasent past results.

The honour system baffles me someone explain this system once and for all PLZZZ

Killed the second most enemy of the 4 team players

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Keep you exits clear and your neddles clean

Methabaron
11-20-2000, 16:46
Well,

The explanation of the system is the one I have given here in my previous posts.

To make sure of what is going on with your honour, take note of the last 30 validbattle scores and and make the average to see if it matches. To find out if a particular battle score is correct, make sure you know the correct honour of your opponent/opponents and also your own honour before the match.

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

Hitodama
11-20-2000, 20:58
Now....Let's make it more confusing!

What about games with more than 2 players??? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

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Hitodama
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All warfare is based on deception.

Obake
11-20-2000, 22:27
Hitodama,

When playing in true multiplayer, the honor level of your enemy is the average of their honor. So if you are playing against a team with individual honors of 100, 104, and 120; for purposes of honor calculations you would use 108 (the average of the 3).

Hope this helps


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Obake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif

We are but shadows of our former selves and the sons and daughters of lions have become sheep. I am the ghost of our past.

FeartheolD
11-20-2000, 22:36
Thanks I have read through your posts I understand it many thanks what you got a degree in Shogun maths.

Serious though you have been a lot of help

I now know what to do to rise again

Hitodama
11-21-2000, 17:20
Thanks Obake! I thought so.

But I'm still a little confused. What does cap mean?? (capped to players grade...)

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http://iserit.greennet.gl/ignatius/face.gif
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All warfare is based on deception.

[This message has been edited by Hitodama (edited 11-21-2000).]

Methabaron
11-21-2000, 17:45
Cap means, "corrected", "shortened", "restricted", "limited".

Exemple:

My honour is 150 (I wish)
Your honour is 70 (poor fool)

You beat me (no way)

Your battle score is my honour capped (corrected) to within 50 of your honour PLUS 50:

This means that your battle score in this case is not 150 + 50 = 200 !!!, but 120 + 50 = 170

Now, where does the 120 come from???, well, thats my honour capped to within 50 of yours !! (70 + 50 = 120)

Note, if my honour was less then you cap from below, exemple:

In the same exemple imagine I beat you, then my battle score would not be 70+50=120 !!! (that would so much suck since my current honour is 150). My battle score would be 100+50=150.

Now where does this 100 come from?, well, thats your honour capped (corrected) within 50 of mine(150-50=100)

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

Hitodama
11-22-2000, 10:01
I'm truly sorry, but I just don't get it. Am I not the only one, or do I need to bang my head against the wall.....again?
Let's take your example again with a little difference.

Your honor=150
My honor=150 (yah right)
I beat you.
My score will be (150+50=200)+50=250????

I read the previuos post by you, where you quote Obake, but...????
Another thing...to your wrote: Cap 120 within 50 of your honour (50), that is 100...???? Is this the point i missed?

Again sorry for being stupid.
Some wise person in one of the threads said: There are no stupid questions... (only stupid people?) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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http://iserit.greennet.gl/ignatius/face.gif
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All warfare is based on deception.

[This message has been edited by Hitodama (edited 11-22-2000).]

Methabaron
11-22-2000, 11:29
Ok, do not worry, it is not an easy to explain it. Here I go again. Here you have the formulas to calculate the battle score:

Winners battle score = ((average of all losing players current honour) capped to within 50 of winners current honour) + 50

Losers battle score = ((average of all winning players current honour) capped to within 50 of losers current honour) - 50

Read the formulas again. Take a deep breath.... read it again. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Now, just try to apply it to any battle. In your exemple

My honour = 150
Your honour = 150

If you beat me, our battle scores according to the formula are calculated like so:

Your battle score = ((150))+ 50 = 200
My battle score = ((150)) - 50 = 100

In this case there is no "capping" because the difference between our honours is already less than 50. Capping is only applied when the difference between the honour of the opponents is higher than 50.

For your second question:

If my honour is 50 and I loose to someone whose honour is 120, my score will be according to the formula:

loser battle score =[120 capped to within 50 of loser current honour]-50 = [100]-50 = 50

Notice that if the winner have had honour 194 the loser battle score would have been the same since you are going to cap the winners honour to within 50 of the loser's honour anyways. In other words, in this last exemple for the loser battle score calculation any winner honour above 100 will be capped to 100 because the loser himself only has honour 50.

Now, don't forget that these were just battle scores !!, the player honour is calculated as the AVERAGE of the last 30 battle scores.

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-22-2000).]

Rob
11-22-2000, 20:16
I could be getting this wrong, but I believe that this may result in a 'black hole' of honour http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Think of a large number. This number equals the total of everybody's honour added together. In theory, if the number of players never changes, this number should never change either. All that changes is the distribution of honour (who gets a bigger slice of the pie). If I beat you five times, I will gain X amount of honour. If you beat me five times you will gain the same amount back, putting us back where we were to begin with.

Say a 150 honour player beats a 50 honour player, the 150 honour player gets a score of 100. His average will drop and the total amount of honour in the system drops too! I suppose you could describe this as 'honour leakage'. In my first example, if I played and beat someone five times and then they did the same to me, these results would cancel each other out.

However, when players are more than 50 apart in honour, honour will start to 'disappear' from the system. This is because the high honour player will lose more than the low honour player gains. The 'missing' honour is lost. Eventually, this could lead to an overall decrease in the rankings. Remember, when the rankings were reset how everyone said that it was so much easier to gain honour and how their honour was rising much more quickly than normal? I believe that this is the result of the effect I described. Resetting the rankings restored the missing honour.

Apologies for not making any sense whatsoever http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Hitodama
11-23-2000, 01:06
OKAY!!!

I think I found out the score-rules.

In battles where the difference is more than 50:
High-honor beats low-honor = the score will be the same as their current honor.
Low-honor beats high-honor = low-honor will get current honor+100, high-honor will get current honor-100.

In battles where the difference is lesser than 50:
The winner get losers current honor+50, loser get winners current honor-50.

This is the score in that particular battle.


Thanks again Metha for being so patient!!

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http://iserit.greennet.gl/ignatius/face.gif
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All warfare is based on deception.

[This message has been edited by Hitodama (edited 11-23-2000).]

Puzz3D
11-23-2000, 02:28
Hitodama: I think you have it right, but a slight clarification:

When the difference is less than 50 the winner gets the looser's current honor +50, and the looser gets the winner's current honor -50.

Rob: I think there is conservation of honor in the system. You cap your opponent's honor to within 50 of yours before adding or subtracting 50. However much one player's honor is shifted by the cap, the other player's honor is shifted an equal amount in the opposite direction. Now if more below average players stop playing than above average ones, then there would be an upwards shift of the mean for the active players. You wouldn't see this in an analysis of the database because all of the inactive players are still listed there.

I think above average players rose quickly after the ranking reset because they were popping 100's out of the end of the 30 game pipe. Before the reset, they would have had many games above 100 already in the pipe.

It's interesting to me that if two players only play each other, and player A always beats player B then player A will rise to 125 and player B will drop to 75. Player A will never go any higher, and 125 won't even get him into the top 100 anymore. For your rating to be meaningful, you really have to play a variety of players. However, with disconnects counting as losses and other play balance issues, a very good player could actually have a rating close to 100.

Hitodama
11-23-2000, 05:56
Yes, you're right. I was typing too fast.
It's correct now.

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http://iserit.greennet.gl/ignatius/face.gif
....................................
All warfare is based on deception.

Methabaron
11-23-2000, 12:02
Hitodama,

I am sooooo glad you now master the art of the battle score calculation !!!!!, from now on I invest you with the title of official answerer of this thread http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif I will honourably step down to leave the young generations come and explain....

Was fun !

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

Hitodama
11-23-2000, 18:22
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif LOL LOL http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Thank you for calling me young!!

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http://iserit.greennet.gl/ignatius/face.gif
....................................
All warfare is based on deception.

Peptis
11-24-2000, 06:12
Quote Originally posted by Rob:
...when players are more than 50 apart in honour, honour will start to 'disappear' from the system. This is because the high honour player will lose more than the low honour player gains. The 'missing' honour is lost. Eventually, this could lead to an overall decrease in the rankings.[/QUOTE]

Very good point.

However, just to be pedantic, it is the honour level that will drop, and not the rankings.

Why don't they use a ranking system that is similar to the one used in chess? eg.
delta =
K
---------------
1 + 10^(diff/50)

explanation:
*K would generally be a number around 5. It just scales the number of points given to or taken away from players.

*diff is winner's honour - loser's honour

*delta is the amount of honour added to the winner's total and taken away from the loser's.

In practice:
For an example take 2 players whose honour differ by 15. If the higher ranked player wins his honour will increase by 1.67 (and loser will lose 1.67), however if the lower ranked player wins their honour will increase by 3.33 (loser's will decrease by 3.33).

Advantages:
*You get more points for beating better players.
*You get points for winning, no matter who you beat.

[This message has been edited by Peptis (edited 11-24-2000).]

ShadowKill
11-24-2000, 06:15
cool

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.