Teleporting Crursade

[timoteob]

So I'm a S:TW Vet who's new M:TW and I've been lurking hear awhile and learned a lot from the learned and esteemed forumites here.

However, I do have 2 questions that I can't find an answer to regarding a mysterious teleporting crusade. I attacked Morocco and the Spanish retreated to their castle. The very next turn a they sent a crusade to attack Morocco, but choose not to do battle. This crusade is headed toward Antioch and has been banging around North Africa for years attacking, then retreating. This time instead of returning to Cordoba or Granada it stayed in Morocco during my turn. I hit the end turn button and I get the besieging report that the castle is about to fall and the next thing I know I am being asked prepare to defend Antioch. The Spanish definitely don't have a naval connection to Antioch, as the don' t have a single ship on the map. My understanding is that crusades move one territory at a time without a naval connection.

So how did a) thier cursade stay in my territory after retreating and b) how did that crusade teleport to the other side of the Med?

Thanks in Advance!

[macsen rufus]

Hi Timoteob,

I'll start with the easier question:


how did that crusade teleport to the other side of the Med?

The likeliest explanation is that they used ships belonging to their allies. The ability to use allies' shipping is exclusive to crusades (and probably jihads as well, but I'm not 100% on that). A normal army can only move via that faction's own ships. So if you have a save game from that turn, take a look at the seas to see if any of Spain's allies are out there with ships. This is an ability you can use as a player as well - but even if you have an ally's shipping available, the enemy's ships can still blockade the path even if they are not at war with your ally (which is to say they block your army rather than the ships themselves...)


So how did their crusade stay in my territory after retreating

Now that one is harder to explain, and I'm not sure I can ~D

USUALLY a Crusade that retreats or calls off an attack will retreat to the nearest friendly territory, either controlled by its own faction or a faction that has already granted access for the Crusade to pass through their territory. If you were a) their enemy, and b) besieging the castle in Morocco, I can't think of a mechanism for that crusade to stay there after it cancelled its attack. I assume that there was still other Spanish territory left to go to? And I also wonder what faction you are playing - it might be pertinent whether you're an excommunicated catholic vs a muslim or orthodox one. So if you could flesh out some more details of the wider 'geopolitics' of your war with Spain, we might gain some insight. :bow:

Of course, it could just be the :furious3:ing AI cheating.

[timoteob]

Hi Timoteob,

The likeliest explanation is that they used ships belonging to their allies.



Well it can't be that since I am the only one with any ship in the Med. right now.

That is a interesting tidbit of information about being able to use allies ship for crusades!




So if you could flesh out some more details of the wider 'geopolitics' of your war with Spain, we might gain some insight. :bow:

I am playing the Turks and I have been pushing by way across North Africa. After taking out the Almohads I shared common boarder with Spain and that's when they eventually launched their crusade. The crusade could have retreated across the land bridges to Cordoba or Granada.

[macsen rufus]

Well, that all sounds royally messed up, then :laugh4:

Seriously, though, it seems to be violating all the usual game mechanics - we're probably back to the final idea: the AI is cheating....

[timoteob]

Seriously, though, it seems to be violating all the usual game mechanics - we're probably back to the final idea: the AI is cheating....

Yeah, no doubt, but thanks for your insights! :bow:

[DEB8]

Well it can't be that since I am the only one with any ship in the Med. right now.
Are you really sure?

[ Unless you have a Ship ( in a Sea Zone ); a Watchtower, a Borderfort or a suitable agent ( able to see into a Sea Zone from adjacent pieces of Coastline ), for all of the appropriate Sea Zones ; you cannot be absolutely sure... ]


That is a interesting tidbit of information about being able to use allies ship for crusades!
Yup - It can be a right pain sometimes. It might even apply to "Neutral" ( but same religion ) nations shipping too...



I am playing the Turks and I have been pushing by way across North Africa. After taking out the Almohads I shared common boarder with Spain and that's when they eventually launched their crusade. The crusade could have retreated across the land bridges to Cordoba or Granada.
In my current game as the Turks, I have captured and lost Morocco. The AI threw in about 7 armies worth of Spanish Troops in a single battle. I defeated the first 2/3 but then got driven back and lost. Since then they have spent several decades sat in Morocco with up to 9/10 armies and will not attack my 3/4 armies in Algeria. Sometimes they move a crusade into Morocco ( Antioch bound ), but it will not attack either. I find that Crusades retreat not to an adjacent province like standard units, but return to the province/s that they attacked from if they used a Sea move to attack. Maybe the Land Bridges count as Sea movement re this rule ???

[DEB8]

So how did a) thier cursade stay in my territory after retreating
Not sure, but this part of the unusual AI workings seems similar to the way Rebels can operate. Perhaps Crusades ( and Jihads ? ) can operate in a similar fashion ?
Or maybe it's a Bug ( badly written piece of Program )...


and b) how did that crusade teleport to the other side of the Med?
The AI can run several Crusades ( to the same place ) at the same time, even for the same nation. Perhaps this was a different Crusade ?? Check out it's Leader / Units ( if possible ) to verify this. Also note my comment in the previous post re being able to see / not see applicable Shipping...

[DEB8]

Seriously, though, it seems to be violating all the usual game mechanics - we're probably back to the final idea: the AI is cheating....
The AI in MTW does cheat sometimes. It's most annoying when it does too. In the absence of any other reasonable explanation it probably is here...

[macsen rufus]

Crusades do seem to cheat a lot - note that as the player, the route a crusade can take is pretty rigidly limited - the shortest route only; the AI can go on a grand scenic tour if it feels like it...

[Martok]

Crusades do seem to cheat a lot - note that as the player, the route a crusade can take is pretty rigidly limited - the shortest route only; the AI can go on a grand scenic tour if it feels like it...
Yep, that's happened to me on a few occasions. I have little doubt that essentially explains how/why the Crusade army harassing timoteob is able to behave the way it is.



I remember one game in particular when I was playing as Castille-Leon (XL Mod) and had conquered all of Iberia: The Holy Roman Empire sent a Crusade army into my territory, on their way to capture Morocco (which was held by the Almoravids at the time). Instead of simply passing through my territory and attacking the Almos straight away, they bounced around my kingdom for over a decade, draining my army strength (units defecting to the Crusade) and generally causing havoc.

I got my revenge, though: I managed to launch my own Crusade for Morocco, and (unlike the Germans) didn't dither, but marched my troops right to Africa and met the Caliphate in battle, which I won. I conquered the province, which caused the HRE's Crusade to fail, and their army that was marauding through my lands vanished like a puff of smoke. The "destruction" of their Crusade also caused a catastrophic loss of influence for the Emperor, the result of which was the Germans immediately plummeted into civil war.

It was quite satisfying in the end, but still annoying, since it highlighted how the AI didn't operate by the same rules as the human player. It was definitely a teaching moment for me as well, as I never again allowed Crusades to pass through my lands, at least when playing as a Catholic faction.

[DEB8]

It was definitely a teaching moment for me as well, as I never again allowed Crusades to pass through my lands, at least when playing as a Catholic faction.

I had a French Crusade to Antioch ( then owned by the Egyptians ) pass through my lands ( I was the Turks ). The AI did not ask if the Crusade could enter, it just marched in.
Even though I was Allied to the French at the time, it attacked Constantinople ( which I owned ) and took it. My other provinces it just marched through *, but I attacked it in Lesser Armenia and destroyed it before it got to Antioch. Evidently Alliances with Muslim nations are ignored by Crusades ; and the "End" Target may not be the only one attacked...

[ * Pre-empting friction, before it entered a province, I retreated some Units to the provinces Castle and the others to neighboring provinces that it could not move to. ]